Umar Lee Leaves Islam and Converts to Christianity!
Here's a video by Umar Lee, a convert to Islam who finally realized that he became a Muslim based on false promises. Let's all pray for our brother and the difficult (but glorious) journey that lies ahead for him.
Shout Out to Brother Umar Lee, i am glad that you took the right decision of leaving Islam, i will diffuse your video among my friends that came with me here in Algeria that end up converting to islam, me too i was one of them, i mean i was close to convert until i found the truth about it through the Minister of ABN and Brother David Wood, and i will pray for you and Brother David Keep up The good Work, you are changing lives! God Bless
to UMAR LEE...welcome to the family with open arms! God bless you! Pass the word brother!
@Umar Lee....great pointing the truths of Islam and WELCOME to the family of Christ!
God bless Umar!
Jesus knows his own, and it is God's act that you are with us today.
The Lord has acted!
Let us rejoice and be glad in every place.
Love has triumphed over fear.
You seem to be misunderstanding some things here. The problems in Islam are usually the result of OBEYING Muhammad's teachings, while the problems in Christianity are the result of DISOBEYING Christ's teachings. We could go through all of your points, but I'm sure others will get to that. Let's take the issue of slavery. Did Jesus have slaves? No. Did Paul have slaves? No. Did any of Jesus' disciples have slaves? No. According to Christianity, God shows no favoritism.
What about in Islam? Did Muhammad have slaves? Absolutely. Did Abu Bakr? Absolutely. Did Umar? Yep. Did Uthman? Yep. Did Ali? Yep.
Indeed, Muhammad had a sex-slave named Mary the Copt.
So if you view slavery as a problem, which religion should you have a problem with?
"1) Perhaps there was slavery in Saudi Arabia as you say, but it was Christians who brought slavery to America. I don't believe that's what Jesus taught - but it's still a sad fact for Christianity, and how people were treated. From the Spanish in the Catholic church and beyond...the history of America should be enough to explore there."
So let me see if I understand you.
Because slavery exhisted in america over 150 years ago, this some how excuses Islam or should I say Saudi Arabia for allowing slave owner ship when Malcom X went on Haj in 1964????
Megan are you one of those Muslim converts that Umar Lee said
"Almost all the Muslim converts I know there lives are messed up"
Praise the Lord! Jesus is Lord.
Welcome to the family Umar. May the Lord bless you, may the Lord keep you, may He cause His face to shine upon you and give you His peace.
May you be used mightily to bring other seekers to the Lord-Amen
Dear Megan Muslimah,
Since you brought the issue of slavery in America, you should probably be aware of the history of slavery that Muslims don't like to talk about:
Could you comment on this please?
Wow! Not even I can think of anything silly or snarky to write about this! This is just TOO wonderful!.
Thank Heaven for Mr. Lee's good sense and for his Trust in Jesus Christ! May we all continue in prayer for him, his loved ones and for all of the precious Muslim people who may be positively impacted by this transformation.
David, THANK YOU for this amazing post!
Mr. Lee, you bless me GREATLY! MAY JESUS CHRIST BE PRAISED!!
KAFIR AND REJOICING!!
David, you said it all. I know If Megan is a honorable person not a muslim ( I think of taqqiyah here) she would concede that Islam support all the wickedness, killing, maiming, pedophilia, violence and so on happening all over the world. Islam is simply a cult, that's why you are forced to convert to it or die. Umar stated it very well... if muslims are sure of their religion why do they prevent their people from hearing the gospel of our Lord. Should they allow people to freely choose in the middle east and elsewhere, the muslim population will drastically reduce. Too many instances of persecution of muslim who convert to Christianity to mention. In Islam you can not think for yourself. Those who dare to do so are already in the grave or in prison.
Megan for once be truthful to yourself.
I'm going to extract elements that are most relevant to cut down on the amount I need to post.
Megan said, " Perhaps there was slavery in Saudi Arabia as you say, but it was Christians who brought slavery to America."
Correction: Men who claimed Christianity brought slaves to America.
It was also Abolitionists who also claimed Christianity that hosted slaves on the underground railroad, lobbied congress and fought to end slavery so what does that do for your premise.
In contrast not one of the abolitionists documented in history were muslim. Hmmm.
Islam, however, has slavery as a part of its core doctrine and still practices it today. As a matter of fact, over 80% of the slave trade export out of africa were marched across the middle east. They were never traded to so-called 'christian' slavetraders.
And most of those were women used exclusively for the sex trade business.
Something Islam also endorses heartily.
point 2: "And previously to the sixties, a black man of the church couldn't marry a white woman of another church. But go to any masjid on earth, no matter the country or language - and everyone still stands shoulder to shoulder, equal with each other praying in the same universal way."
Interracial marriage was a controversy to the cultural norms of the day. You didn't have to be 'Christian' (as you are so apt to put it) to be against interracial marriage.
Everyone standing 'shoulder to shoulder' is true...in the literal sense. But you're alluding to 'universal brother or sisterhood' is laughable. Go as Umar or CL Edwards about that.
"There is domestic violence happening in America every minute, along with rape, drunk driving, sexual harassment, and sexual molestation. The church again has a history of that - specific to the Catholic church. If one wants to argue that Christianity is where the joy is at, then I see a weeping nation that is a lot of pain. "
Wow, and the Catholic church is representative of that, is it?
Um, you need a quick lesson in church history but that's a longer post. Let me sum up:
1. The catholic church (i presume you mean ROMAN) came together around the 4th century. It's not representative of the universal church or the body of christ which existed long before it. Go look up Ignatius, Polycarp, Ireneus for examples.
2. It's not because of the church there a 'weeping nation in pain'. It's because man is sinful and selfish and we live in a fallen world. Christianity offers a simple cure: repent and trust in christ that he died for your sins.
Problem lessened if not eradicated for sure.
Overall Megan, YOU represent exactly what Umar was talking about. You just don't see it.
There is racism period wether your a christian or Muslim that's why there is the black church because orginally blacks weren't allow to go to white churches slaves slaves no one is innocent in that category blacks were ruled over here in america with the bible and given a whote jesus in christianity..there is no happiness in christianity that isnt in islam its about the person jesus didn't die for your sins you are responsible for your own actions and in rhe bible god said he doesn't sire sire means to have children. ...so just because the world is in a mess doesn't exclude the Muslim he to has to overcome...its true wbat he said about racism but that exist outside of the religion because you jave korean churches spanish churches Iranian churches and the kill each other all the time not about religion but power....now with all that being said there is no compulsion in religion feel free to go to church if that is where god has lead you but the points you made can be found anywhere ..and if you didn't agree with hadiths don't practice them your supposed to be worshipping not caring about what imam or shiek says and that is personal......
You seem to have no understanding of Christianity. Do you really think that Christians believe that God "sired" Jesus, as if God produced an offspring? I've never met a Christian who believes this, so I'm not sure what you're trying to refute.
Even more shocking, you seem to have no understanding of Islam. You say that we're all responsible for our own sins. Here you contradict your own prophet, who said that Allah will punish Jews and Christians for the sins of Muslims:
Sahih Muslim 6665—Abu Musa reported that Allah's Messenger said: When it will be the Day of Resurrection Allah would deliver to every Muslim a Jew or a Christian and say: That is your rescue from Hell-Fire.
Sahih Muslim 6666—Allah’s Apostle said: No Muslim would die but Allah would admit in his stead a Jew or a Christian in Hell-Fire.
Sahih Muslim 6668—Allah’s Messenger [said]: There would come people amongst the Muslims on the Day of Resurrection with as heavy sins as a mountain, and Allah would forgive them and He would place in their stead the Jews and the Christians.
110 Hadith Qudsi—Allah’s Messenger said: On the Day of Resurrection, my Ummah (nation) will be gathered into three groups. One sort will enter Paradise without rendering an account (of their deeds). Another sort will be reckoned an easy account and admitted into Paradise. Yet another sort will come bearing on their backs heaps of sins like great mountains. Allah will ask the angels though He knows best about them: Who are these people? They will reply: They are humble slaves of yours. He will say: Unload the sins from them and put the same over the Jews and Christians: then let the humble slaves get into Paradise by virtue of My Mercy.
But let me guess, you've never read any of these passages. Instead, you simply believed whatever your imam told you to believe. How original.
David your answer to Jameel was spot on. There is no hiding place for Jameel anymore, he has been exposed. I wander what his defence will be now. He has two choices-
1. Contradict Mohammed ---which I doubt he will ever do or 2. He no longer reckon with the hadiths. Either way, the game is over.
I'm a muslim and i thank Allah that I'm a muslim. I'm living a simple islamic way of life, Alhamdulillah.
@ Megan muslimah
It seems to me that you are also one of those muslims who cannot draw a distinction between christianity and society. Society ISN'T christianity my dear.
While we at it, can you please explain what you believe the term "right hand possessions" mean in the quran.
You stopped short of reading your quran finish. There is no compulsion in religion..how laughable. What about "kill the unbelievers UNTIL they subbmit to allah". How about " No other religion will be accepted other than islam". Do you know your own religion?
Could you give me your source for claiming that "preservation of life" is the "the first objection of Shari'ah"? I haven't read this before, so I'm wondering where you're getting it from.
BTW, I think you've misunderstood Umar's argument. It goes something like this:
(1) I left Christianity because Islam promised X, Y, and Z.
(2) Islam never delivered X, Y, or Z.
(3) Hence, there was no real reason for me to convert to Islam.
(4). Thus, I'm returning to Christianity.
Now, there's no question that Islam didn't deliver on its promises of universal brotherhood, etc. However, the best response you can offer Umar is not "But all religions don't deliver." Instead, you should argue, "But Umar, there are other reasons you should believe in Islam."
So, why on earth should Umar or anyone else believe that Islam is TRUE? That would be the only real reason for converting.
Some have protection of faith as first, others life - either or, for further study, I recommend a course on "Maqasid" or the objectives of the Shari'ah. Or the "spirit" and intent of the legal aspects to Islam.
The understanding of Shari'ah is that while people have faith and belief in God, there is also a societal system for people to live by which serves to protect people in life, faith, wealth, family, society, etc.
I know you guys are firing up for attack comments here, but you are wasting your energy on the wrong person! I'm not pulling quotes - just an honest person putting a baby down for the night being a part of dialogue.
If anyone wants, visit a local mosque, set up a few appointments with an Imam, and ask him what you are asking me.
Far better use of time for us all!
"I am not here for tit for tat discussion
either - for truly, anyone who wants
to know the answer to their question
should ask a true scholar or well
versed speaker of Islam living in
Bro's David wood and Sam Shamoun have asked, debated and totally annihilated your "True Scholars and/or well versed speakers".
How about you go and ask your rightly guided imams about the hadiths Bro David gave above about Allah been so merciful to islamic terrorists like Tarmalane Tsarnaev and be un-merciful to the little boy he killed.
Note this from CikguGeo "I'm a muslim and i thank Allah that I'm a muslim. I'm living a simple islamic way of life, Alhamdulillah"
There was no single answer to all the vital points raised by David and others. Megan also carefully avoided the obvious uncomfortable questions. She even went as far as saying that you should ask "a true scholar or well versed speaker of islam" This confirms the ealier assertions by previous speakers that muslims do not think for themselves, they regurgitate whatever they are told by their imams and leaders. Simply taking the quran and reading it and asking those difficult questions will open their eyes to the false religion called islam. That was what I did.
Megan, I asked you a simple question, that requires a single reference. You claimed that the first objective of Sharia is the protection of life. I asked you to give me a single authoritative source making that statement, and your response is that I should go take a class???
Imagine if you were to ask me for a Bible reference for one of my claims about the Bible, and my response was "Well, you'll have to go to seminary and take a class." Wouldn't you start to suspect that I didn't really know what I was talking about, and that I simply regurgitate what I've been told?
And here's the point. Umar seems to be able to critically examine Islam, and he found it lacking. You blindly accept what you're taught, without bothering to check the facts. Why is this so often the case with Muslims?
While I can appreciate your comments the fact is that your broached the subject of Christianity being violent. One proven your comments are statements without fact you suddenly decide your not going to 'engage' with the collective rebuttals to your statements and made an underhanded comment that we waste our lives here.
Oh, and you keep coming back even though you are 'so busy'.
One has to wonder, why come at all?
And why should we talk to Imams about sharia law and Islam when Umar's whole point in this video was he was sold on the 'promises' of Islam that didn't come to pass.
A question for you Megan: do you think some if these Islamic promise makers were Imams?
If not, why not? These religious hucksters got it somewhere didn't they? Did they misread the Koran? Were they not reading it in Arabic? Were they not reading it in Muhammad's mother dialect? Did they not read the Hadith? Did they read the Hadith? What about the sunnah?
No. Megan you want to defend your religion but like all other Muslims you want to do it in your own terms.
It don't work that way here. We can read the Koran, Hadith all other Islamic literature with proper hermeneutics as well as observe the Muslim condition here and worldwide. We can do the same with the bible and bias is not required for ANY OF IT one way or another and we can all come to the same conclusion: Islam is not a religion of peace, it calls for subjugation of minorities (religious or otherwise), and death.
You are misleading as well as being misled.
Poor Umar! He entered Islam because some uncle promised him heaven on earth and when he was meet with challenges he decided to return right back to where he came from. "Do people think that they will be left alone because they say: "We believe," and will not be tested" (Al-Ankaboot, verse 2)
This video is a joke and I'm beginning to think this brother’s whole attitude towards Islam was a joke since day 1. Anyone who followed him online knows that he has been infamous for spreading gossip and rumors about Muslim personalities and back-biting people he has never even meet.
This dude wants to return back to Jesus, lol. When was the last time he opened up the Qu’ran, Jesus is a muslim and his message and story have been preserved in the classic Arabic language for generations to reflect upon. You’d give that up for the chance to return to the “dancing and clapping musical non-sense fest” which is the Baptist church? Brainwashing people with a bible that gets re-edited every 10 years, in a language that Jesus or any or any of his disciple’s never even spoke?
YOU GUYS ARE HILIRIOUS!!!
It’s pretty clear why he left, it’s because he was too busy studying Muslims and forgot to study ISLAM!!! Of course we are flawed and have mistakes, but just like the child molesting priests of today don’t represent Christians, how can you examine your small community of American Muslims in the middle of nowhere St.Louis and somehow use that as a measuring stick for 1.6 billion people!
P.S. blog sites like this make me LAUGH SO HARD. You guys sit around throwing abstract verses and statements in the air without any context and just randomly add your own explanations and commentary and expect your conclusions to make sense to anyone who has an even basic understanding of Islam?
We as Muslims are taught only to learn Islam from legitimate sources and study with scholars in order to gain a comprehensive understanding, which can’t just be done from random websites and forums online. That’s like walking into a hospital and getting surgery done by a guy who’s studied on youtube, and he can throw around some medical terminology because he’s watched tons of “ER” or “Grey’s Anatomy” LOL!
Now how about a stream of religious sciences that hold much more value than a simple medical degree, simple point if you want to learn Islam, than ask a real scholar or someone with that fundamental knowledge sincerely, because if you don’t want to SINCERLY learn the truth, you will never be exposed to it!
And do you think he is the first Muslim to leave Islam? There have been many over history and there will most likely be many more, but who are we kidding, for every Muslim that leaves Islam for Christianity, there are HUNDREDS if not THOUSANDS of Christians leaving for Islam every single day, Allahu Akbar. In fact our mosques are running out of Qu’rans to give them! No wonder this dumb story is making headlines on your pathetic loser watch portals, you need all the PR push you can get.
Every Muslim reading this should remember that it is Allah who guides people to the straight path, and that it is a blessing to call yourself a muslim and so say Alhamdulillah for this privilege, and we ask Allah to keep us steadfast, make our hearts firm, and grant guidance to us, our brother Umar, and all those non-muslims reading this. Ameen
Lastly, you guys love to talk about slavery, and as poor brother Umar mentioned its one of those issues that especially people in America can’t seem to get over because of your collective guilty conscious. One convenient fact that poor Umar left out and most of you wack jobs would never even dare consider is that “WESTERN SLAVERY” and “SLAVERY IN ISLAM” are two completely different things:
There were many sources of slaves before Islam, whereas the means of freeing slaves were virtually nil. Islam changed the way in which slavery was dealt with; it created many new ways of liberating slaves, blocked many ways of enslaving people, and established guidelines which blocked these means.
It is worth pointing out that you do not find any text in the Qur’aan or Sunnah which enjoins taking others as slaves, whereas there are dozens of texts in the Qur’aan and the ahaadeeth of the Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) which call for manumitting slaves and freeing them.
Islam limited the sources of slaves that existed before the beginning of the Prophet’s mission to one way only: enslavement through war which was imposed on prisoners-of-war. Islam is not thirsty for the blood of prisoners, nor is it eager to enslave them.
Despite all of this Islam offers many opportunities to restore freedom Slaves and the principle of dealing with slaves in Islam is a combination of justice, kindness and compassion, NOTHING LIKE THE AMERICAN SLAVE HISTORY
One of the means of liberating slaves is allocating a portion of zakaah funds to freeing slaves; the expiation for accidental killing, breaking vows and having intercourse during the day in Ramadaan, is to free a slave. In addition to that, Muslims are also encouraged in general terms to free slaves for the sake of Allaah.
This is a brief summary of some of the principles of dealing with slaves in a just and kind manner:
1 – Guaranteeing them food and clothing like that of their masters.
It was narrated that Abu Dharr (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “They are your brothers whom Allaah has put under your authority, so if Allaah has put a person’s brother under his authority, let him feed him from what he eats and clothe him from what he wears, and let him not overburden him with work, and if he does overburden him with work, then let him help him.” Narrated by al-Bukhaari (6050).
2 – Preserving their dignity
It was narrated that Abu Hurayrah (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: I heard Abu’l-Qaasim (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) say: “Whoever accuses his slave when he is innocent of what he says will be flogged on the Day of Resurrection, unless he is as he said.” Narrated by al-Bukhaari (6858).
Ibn ‘Umar (may Allaah be pleased with him) manumitted a slave of his, then he picked up a stick or something from the ground and said: There is no more reward in it than the equivalent of this, but I heard the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) say: “Whoever slaps his slave or beats him, his expiation is to manumit him.” Narrated by Muslim (1657).
3 – Being fair towards slaves and treating them kindly
It was narrated that ‘Uthmaan ibn ‘Affaan tweaked the ear of a slave of his when he did something wrong, then he said to him after that: Come and tweak my ear in retaliation. The slave refused but he insisted, so he started to tweak it slightly, and he said to him: Do it strongly, for I cannot bear the punishment on the Day of Resurrection. The slave said: Like that, O my master? The Day that you fear I fear also.
When ‘Abd al-Rahmaan ibn ‘Awf (may Allaah be pleased with him) walked among his slaves, no one could tell him apart from them, because he did not walk ahead of them, and he did not wear anything different from what they wore.
One day ‘Umar ibn al-Khattaab passed by and saw some slaves standing and not eating with their master. He got angry and said to their master: What is wrong with people who are selfish towards their servants? Then he called the servants and they ate with them.
A man entered upon Salmaan (may Allaah be pleased with him) and found him making dough – and he was a governor. He said to him: O Abu ‘Abd-Allaah, what is this? He said: We have sent our servant on an errand and we do not want to give him two jobs at once.
4 – There is nothing wrong with slaves having precedence over free men in some matters
- with regard to any religious or worldly matters in which he excels over him. For example, it is valid for a slave to lead the prayer. ‘Aa’ishah the Mother of the Believers had a slave who would lead her in prayer. Indeed the Muslims have been commanded to hear and obey even if a slave is appointed in charge of their affairs.
5 – A slave may buy himself from his master and be free.
If a person is enslaved for some reason but then it becomes apparent that he has given up his wrongdoing and forgotten his past, and he has become a man who shuns evil and seeks to do good, is it permissible to respond to his request to let him go free? Islam says yes, and there are some fuqaha’ who say that this is obligatory and some who say that it is mustahabb.
This is what is called a mukaatabah or contract of manumission between the slave and his master. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
“And such of your slaves as seek a writing (of emancipation), give them such writing, if you find that there is good and honesty in them. And give them something (yourselves) out of the wealth of Allaah which He has bestowed upon you” [al-Noor 24:33]
Another result of the Muslims treating slaves in this manner is that the slaves became part of Muslim families as if they were also family members.
Gustave le Bon says in Hadaarat al-‘Arab (Arab Civilization) (p. 459-460): What I sincerely believe is that slavery among the Muslims is better than slavery among any other people, and that the situation of slaves in the east is better than that of servants in Europe, and that slaves in the east are part of the family. Slaves who wanted to be free could attain freedom by expressing their wish. But despite that, they did not resort to exercising this right. End quote.
PS, this message is to the moderator, if you decide not to post my comments, just known that your are unfair in doing so and don't favour actual dialogue as much as you do silly propoganda. If you do decide to post it, than good onto you and may the best ideas win!
Hi Megan: and "christians" boughyt slaves in Africa frome whom? Could you answer this?
@ Estudantes Mocambicanos na Argelia
estou contente pela sua resistência às mentiras e fascínios sub-humanos (violência, mentira, sexualidade desregrada) do islão. Coragem irmão! E não te esqueças de avisar os teus concidadãos que o ir estudar e trabalhar em países islâmicos é um passaporte para tais fascínios.
I am assuming you are a convert to Islam. Did you do your research on Islam before you jumped the bandwagon?
Islam is a terrible place to be in especially if you are a woman.
Mohammed had no respect for women, which reflects the cruel injunctions in the Koran towards women. "Beat them"... Do you think this is a solution to marital problems or is it simply an instilling of fear on the weaker sex.
How could you judge Umar Lee for his awakening, and rejection of Islam when you have bigger fish to fry of your own in Islam? I mean how do you resolve your prophet's own words that tell all Muslims that " ...the majority of the inhabitants of hell are women"? Or Allah's assurance to men that you are merely his tilth.... (ie property) to be "taken" whenever he desired, or the sanction of rape of that which "your right hand posesses" by this same misogynistic diety?
Think about these things before you worry about the catholic Church's corruption and sex scandals. Mohammed was no saint in matters of taking a minor to bed himself, so you have your "best example for mankind" doing the very things you dare to condemn.
I have had Muslims try to convert me to Islam. Why would you say Islam is the right way?
I know his wife personally. None of u have any idea what's to come. If anyone muslim or christian think that he was sincere in any of his "conversions" then my friends, you are all bafoons. He visited philly, he was an arrogant asshole, similar to his blog, kept rambling on, would not shut up and loved attention. He contacted people like this website before he made his 7min ramble, he also is demanding money for his story. Typical "ex-muslim" talk. I'm very familiar with teachings of the bible, I was once in the ministry. Umar Lee is nothing more than a man who loves attention, a poor taxi driver looking to score big. Let's sit back & see what happens next. I'm sure it won't be to your liking.
as you told us to go to local Imam,i take your advice and ask the questions to Imam. he ran away like you did,such a coward Muslims you are.
Cikgugeo you are just following the islam blindly, did you ever try to understand your way of life???!!!
1)"it was Christians who brought slavery to America"
The difference is that slavery was eventually abolished in America. All Western countries make attempts to grow and change, while islamic countries continue to live in the dark ages, ruled by 7th century ideals.
2)"Racism existed within Christians, and still does amongst some groups - there is no universal brotherhood or sisterhood with Christians either. A Catholic wasn't allowed to marry a Protestant, or a Bapist a Mormon"
There doesn't seem to be any universal brotherhood with muslim groups either. Sunnis, shiites, salafists, etc., etc. are constantly at each other throats, bombing mosques, etc..
Catholicism has change and does allow marriage between Catholics, Baptists, Protestants, Jews, etc.. My Catholic mother and (former) Baptist father have been married for 40 years.
3)"There is domestic violence happening in America every minute, along with rape, drunk driving, sexual harassment, and sexual molestation."
There is domestic violece, rape, sexual harassment and sexual molestation happening in the islamic countries as well. In Egypt for example, muslim women have to put up with sexual harassment/molestation on a daily basis. Adult men exposes themselves to young girls as they walk to and from school. What's funny is that muslims believe that a flimsy little hijab is going to prevent such things from happening, when obviously it doesn't work.
"The church again has a history of that - specific to the Catholic church. If one wants to argue that Christianity is where the joy is at, then I see a weeping nation that is a lot of pain."
Many an imam has been accused of molesting/raping young children. Children have been reported to have been raped by their quran teachers as well.
Megan Muslimah, I think your hijab may be wrapped too tight. muslims constantly point out the short-comings in others, but refuse to acknowledge their own.
Bluv ended his senseless multiple post rant by saying, "PS, this message is to the moderator, if you decide not to post my comments, just known that your are unfair in doing so and don't favour actual dialogue as much as you do silly propoganda. If you do decide to post it, than good onto you and may the best ideas win!"
I guess he decided to post it. So, what does that say about you???
Bluv on this post:
"It was narrated that ‘Uthmaan ibn ‘Affaan tweaked the ear of a slave of his when he did something wrong, then he said to him after that: Come and tweak my ear in retaliation. The slave refused but he insisted, so he started to tweak it slightly, and he said to him: Do it strongly, for I cannot bear the punishment on the Day of Resurrection. The slave said: Like that, O my master? The Day that you fear I fear also.
When ‘Abd al-Rahmaan ibn ‘Awf (may Allaah be pleased with him) walked among his slaves, no one could tell him apart from them, because he did not walk ahead of them, and he did not wear anything different from what they wore.
One day ‘Umar ibn al-Khattaab passed by and saw some slaves standing and not eating with their master. He got angry and said to their master: What is wrong with people who are selfish towards their servants? Then he called the servants and they ate with them.
A man entered upon Salmaan (may Allaah be pleased with him) and found him making dough – and he was a governor. He said to him: O Abu ‘Abd-Allaah, what is this? He said: We have sent our servant on an errand and we do not want to give him two jobs at once. "
Please give the citation.
Let's what and see if Umar brings forth fruit in keeping with his repentance.
I'm not going to deal with the slavery part. Instead I'll let someone else deal with it who has full access to the hadith and Surahs to back up Bluv's deception.
Instead I'll deal with the first post:
"Jesus is a muslim and his message and story have been preserved in the classic Arabic language for generations to reflect upon."
If I wanted to believe a man who lived 600 years after the birth, life, death, burial and resurrection of Christ then sure, I guess that would do.
But then I'd have to disregard evidence to the contrary.
" You’d give that up for the chance to return to the “dancing and clapping musical non-sense fest” which is the Baptist church?"
You have a problem with dancing and clapping.Oh no wait, you're just being nasty. Those ad homenim attacks are just sooo hard to see sometimes.
By the way, you just showed how little you know about Christianity, although I think the more you post, you'll probably claim 'I was a christian too'.
"Brainwashing people with a bible that gets re-edited every 10 years, in a language that Jesus or any or any of his disciple’s never even spoke?"
Yet Jesus didn't speak arabic because it wasn't around in the 1st century but you totally have NO problem believing he said that in the Koran.
Arabic doesn't even come into existence until maybe the late 4th/early 5th century and Muhammad's dialect still has yet to evolve from that.
And you call us fools. Seriously???
Bluv, how do you even know what Isa Ibn Miriam even said? Exactly. Word from arabic word (that hadn't even come into existance yet).
You don't and that's per your own Islamic sources:
"I heard the prophet saying, "Learn the Quran from four: Abdullah Ibn Masud, Salim, Mu'adh and Ubai Bin Ka'b." Bukihari 6.61.521
But Zaid Ibn Thabit put it together and he wasn't 'muhammad-approved'.
Not only that but:
Many (of the passages) of the Qur’an that were sent down were known by those who died on the day of Yamama . . . but they were not known (by those who) survived them, nor were they written down, nor had Abu Bakr, Umar or Uthman (by that time) collected the Qur’an, nor were they found with even one (person) after them.
Ibn Abi Dawud, Kitab al-Masahif
You don't know what Jesus said...but Christians do. 5700 copies of the new testament in Greek still survive today and I don't think that includes the Coptic or Syriac but even if those went away, you'd still have the writings of Ignatius, Polycarp and Ireneus as well as many other during the first three hundred years of the church's existence. From these writings the entirety of the New Testament has been preserved.
By the way, Polycarp and Ignatius lived in the first and second centuries. They were martyrs for the Christian faith and both clung to three things:
-God is one in being but three in person and all persons were equal.
-man is sinful and a Just God will punish all who sin.
-Christ came into the world to take the wrath of God due to man upon himself to satisfy judgment. Through him all can be forgiven of ALL sins by turning away from them and accepting Christ.
We know what Jesus said. The message went out in the common language of the day (koine greek) so all could understand it. The message still goes out today so ALL can understand it because after all,
ALL are accountable to YHWH, not Allah. Whether you speak the language or not is no excuse but isn't it great the bible comes in your own common vernacular, you know, English. The same language that changes every few years (i.e. ten years ago no one 'googled' anything, etc).
I think it's sad that like Megan, you demonstrate the same thing you accuse us of: willful ignorance.
Bluv said: "We as Muslims are taught only to learn Islam from legitimate sources and study with scholars in order to gain a comprehensive understanding, which can’t just be done from random websites and forums online."
And he then went on to copy paste a text on slavery from islamqa.com. Ouch!!!
Ok you seem to be interested in talking about slavery. Well, then could you respond this? :
1. A comparison of the Islamic slave trade to the American slave trade reveals some interesting contrasts. While two out of every three slaves shipped across the Atlantic were men, the proportions were reversed in the Islamic slave trade. Two women for every man were enslaved by the Muslims.
2. While the mortality rate for slaves being transported across the Atlantic was as high as 10%, the percentage of slaves dying in transit in the Trans Sahara and East African slave trade was between 80 and 90%!
3. While almost all the slaves shipped across the Atlantic were for agricultural work, most of the slaves destined for the Muslim Middle East were for sexual exploitation as concubines, in harems, and for military service.
While many children were born to slaves in the Americas, and millions of their descendants are citizens in Brazil and the USA to this day, very few descendants of the slaves that ended up in the Middle East survive.
4. While most slaves who went to the Americas could marry and have families, most of the male slaves destined for the Middle East were castrated, and most of the children born to the women were killed at birth.
5. It is estimated that possibly as many as 11 million Africans were transported across the Atlantic (95% of which went to South and Central America, mainly to Portuguese, Spanish and French possessions. Only 5% of the slaves went to the United States).
6. However, at least 28 million Africans were enslaved in the Muslim Middle East. As at least 80% of those captured by Muslim slave traders were calculated to have died before reaching the slave markets, it is believed that the death toll from the 14 centuries of Muslim slave raids into Africa could have been over 112 million. When added to the number of those sold in the slave markets, the total number of African victims of the Trans Saharan and East African slave trade could be significantly higher than 140 million people.
(Source wikiislam.net) You see, Bluv, we too can look up Google (which by the way is invented by Kuffars - both the founders are Jewish). LOL!
@John 8:24 - I got my info from a reputable Islamic source run by legitimate scholars, that's the whole point! It wasn't some random rants from supreme losers and orentalists who couldn't tell arabic from Farsi.
@deleting - there you knuckle heads go again, quoting Hadith and literature like you even understand anything about it to make a sensible argument. The Prophet (SAW) said to learn the Quran from those 4 companions, as in study the recitation (tajweed) rules and regulations from them, as this is an entire science in its self.
And you say you don't trust a man who lived 600 years after Jesus, may Allah send peace and blessings upon him, yet you somehow trust books written 2000 after his death as though they would somehow be more accurate?
And you're right Jesus didn't speak arabic and didn't speak English either, but he did speak an Aramaic dialect of Hebrew in which none of you have ever read so in reality you are simply slaves to a translation of a translation of a translition at best and have no real connection to his teachings whereas we know and still use the exact arabic dialect the prophet spoke (foosha) plus we know the Quran has been preserved because it came from an oral culture which many companions memorized in full during the life of the prophet and after his death and which has been 100% agreed on from every generation since.
If you want to learn about islam go to the people of knowledge and ask them, otherwise please shut your mouths, turn off your computers and never speak about this subject again!
Bluv, so you consider the writers of IslamQA to be reputable scholars of Islam? So do I. Indeed, I think they're some of the finest Islamic scholars on the internet. But since you've quoted them, you won't mind if I quote a few other things from these same scholars, would you?
@john 8:24 there you go again citing the most obscure and retarded authority in the history of religion (wikkk-islam) a portal for racists and bigot islamaphobes to share what they learned on AOL. If wikipedia is your expert source, I'm scared to see what your high school report cards looked like :0 try speaking to people of knowledge and abandon the propaganda parade, you know Hitler also brought up compelling facts and interesting figures to sway his audience, but we all know that didn't work out too well in the long run...
P.s. I like how you guys keep referring to Megan as if you have a glimpse of hope she will turn back to your ignorant way of life. I would suggest focusing in your own misconceptions and striving to learn and understand things free from prejudice, and if you sincerely come to the conclusion that Islam is not correct than so be it, because Islam isn't for everyone, and neither is heaven, may Allah guide all if your hearts to the truth. Ameen!
Bluv said, "deleting - there you knuckle heads go again, quoting Hadith and literature like you even understand anything about it to make a sensible argument."
Me-Wait up, I'm confused. When you quote hadith its correct. When I quote hadith it's incorrect? Well it's a good thing you're here then, huh.
Oh wait, no it's not. Read on!
"The Prophet (SAW) said to learn the Quran from those 4 companions, as in study the recitation (tajweed) rules and regulations from them, as this is an entire science in its self. "
And Uthman tapped the wrong man to record the Koran and had the other fragments, evidence of what would have been correct, BURNED. Ibn Masud, one of the four Muhammad said to learn from, REJECTED the Koran so your point is just a lot of irrelevant information.
Next: "And you say you don't trust a man who lived 600 years after Jesus, may Allah send peace and blessings upon him, yet you somehow trust books written 2000 after his death as though they would somehow be more accurate?"
FIRST, the gospels and epistles are 2000 years old.
They were not written 2000 years after the events.
Go look up p52, or p75 in wikipedia and it will pull up papyrus manuscripts from the first and 2nd centuries. p52 is first century. p.75 is from the second.
Textual criticism is something few Muslims understand so consider it a privilege someone would take time to explain it to you Bluv.
Accuracy of a text is determined by the number of manuscripts and how close they are to the actual events they are recording or apart of.
There are 5700 manuscripts dated from the first and second centuries in the common language of the era.
Juxipose this to the earliest Koranic manuscrip....oh right there aren't any because Uthman had them all burned or killed. Oh well, moving on.
Early Christians hand-copied epistles of the apostles and the gospels and shared them with each other to use, read, teach from and learn.
There would no doubt be more if it weren't for the roman persecution of christians, destruction from muslim invasions into christian areas and general use and wear.
But here's where I want you to understand this. Everything in the new testament is SUPPORTED by the old testament.
And there are 5700 copies of the '2000 year old documents',
And church fathers some 2000 years ago who quoted the epistles, gospels and old testaments OVER AND OVER AGAIN.
So yes, to answer your question, I'll trust what someone 2000 years ago said and backed up about Jesus over some guy living in another area, speaking another language and had no clue what he was talking about when he denied all of christianity whilst still trying to appeal to it for some authority.
continued to the next post
Bluv said, "And you're right Jesus didn't speak arabic and didn't speak English either, but he did speak an Aramaic dialect of Hebrew in which none of you have ever read so in reality you are simply slaves to a translation of a translation of a translition at best and have no real connection to his teachings whereas we know and still use the exact arabic dialect the prophet spoke (foosha) plus we know the Quran has been preserved because it came from an oral culture which many companions memorized in full during the life of the prophet and after his death and which has been 100% agreed on from every generation since."
There's something called a 'period' and it looks like this at the end of a sentence(.)
Perhaps you could start using one. It makes it easier to read and dialogue with you.
Oh that's right, you didn't want that either.
Nevermind, I can respond accordingly.
"And you're right Jesus didn't speak arabic and didn't speak English either,"
This is irrelevant to any point you're trying to make.
"but he did speak an Aramaic dialect of Hebrew in which none of you have ever read so in reality you are simply slaves to a translation of a translation of a translition"
Once again, this highlights your abject ignorance.
Every single bible out there, whether it be the ESV or NIV, is pulling from the hebrew and greek manuscripts. It takes seven to ten years to complete each translation because they're GOING BACK TO THE ORIGINAL SOURCES. It wouldn't take that long if it were a translation of a translation.
Reference: go to youtube and search for Daniel Wallace or James White. Daniel is currently photographing every ancient biblical document (the ones I told you about that are 2000 years old) and he worked on the NET bible as well as consulted on the ESV.
"we know and still use the exact arabic dialect the prophet spoke (foosha)"
Actually it's spelled ' Fus'ha' but okay...
"we know the Quran has been preserved because it came from an oral culture which many companions memorized in full during the life of the prophet and after his death and which has been 100% agreed on from every generation since."
You don't read your koran/hadith/sunnah literature. You know how I know you don't?
BECAUSE THIS IS THE GARBAGE WESTERN MUSLIMS SPEW OUT COURTESY OF THEIR IMAMS!
I gave you the Hadith sources and I did so correctly. You're just some young punk who is UTTERLY CLUELESS as to what your religion teaches.
"If you want to learn about islam go to the people of knowledge and ask them..."
You mean like you did, because you keep spouting the same errors. I don't think that's a good idea.
"otherwise please shut your mouths, turn off your computers and never speak about this subject again!"
Oh well in that case, I guess I need to keep talking about it and doing more exposing of Islam because you told me not too.
No. I will keep talking about it because Islam is F-A-L-S-E and a lie started a liar and perpetuated by liars.
IF you're that disturbed by what we're saying then walk away. I'm not going anywhere.
One last thing.
Bluv said, "P.s. I like how you guys keep referring to Megan as if you have a glimpse of hope she will turn back to your ignorant way of life."
Actually being ignorant of our way of life is what facilitated her entry into Islam. I hope it changes for her and her family.
Bluv, since you're a fan of IslamQA, do you agree with them that Islam was spread by the sword? They write:
Was Islam spread by the sword?.
Praise be to Allaah.
We have already stated in question no. 34830 that jihad is of two types: taking the initiative in fighting and jihad in self-defence.
Undoubtedly taking the initiative in fighting has a great effect in spreading Islam and bringing people into the religion of Allaah in crowds. Hence the hearts of the enemies of Islam are filled with fear of jihad.
In the English-language Muslim World Magazine it says: There should be some kind of fear in the western world, one of the causes of which is that since the time it first appeared in Makkah, Islam has never decreased in numbers, rather it has always continued to increase and spread. Moreover Islam is not only a religion, rather one of its pillars is jihad.
The article concludes:
Islam spread by means of proof and evidence to those who listened to the message and responded to it, and it spread by means of force and the sword to those who were stubborn and arrogant, until they were overwhelmed and became no longer stubborn, and submitted to that reality.
So do you support this view of violent jihad?
Do you also agree with IslamQA that, as a Muslim, you must hate non-Muslims? They write:
Shaykh Muhammad al-Saalih al-‘Uthaymeen (may Allaah have mercy on him) was asked about the ruling on mixing with the kuffaar and treating them kindly hoping that they will become Muslim. He replied:
Undoubtedly the Muslim is obliged to hate the enemies of Allaah and to disavow them, because this is the way of the Messengers and their followers.
BTW, I bet Megan has never heard of any of this! Like so many other Westernized Muslims, she's been insulated from the reality of Islam.
"Never argue with an idiot, they will bring you down to their level, than beat you with experience"
I should have recalled this quote the moment I first saw your post. Anyways this is my last one as I've said all I need to say and you've said all that is fabricated and straight up wrong. Who said Ibn Masood rejected the Qu'ran? Let me guess one of your dork friends orientalises who is almost as ignorant as you?
How can you quote a hadith without contextualizing or understanding its true meaning? Scholars spend years going through the meaning and implications of such profound statements and a bigot like you just does a little google search and all of a sudden you've discovered something 1400+ years of scholarship just happen to miss, LOL.
Don't give yourself to much credit, I've seen bottle caps with more insight than you and I can spell arabic words however I choose "Foosha" or "Fus'ha" is the same thing, because its just a transliteration so there is no right way to spell something in a completely different language, but I'm sure you wouldn’t appreciate that as your only true interaction with arabic or muslims in general has been through local shawarma shops.
Silly rabbit, concepts like textual criticism only came into play because your texts are all screwed up to begin with. Like I said the Qu'ran was preserved by memory word for word by thousands of people, and still is. I myself have memorized a good portion of it as most muslims have and as I stated earlier the companions including Uthman were memorizers of the Qu'ran, which reads like (not exactly) poetry, something the Arabs were famous for engraving in their memory banks. I've never even heard of a Christian who has memorized a page of the bible never mind half of it although I guess they could probably choose from the different versions of it and see what was easier (Mormons, catholic, Jehovah witnesses etc)
You think google searches and forum stalking makes you some sort of expert in anything but you are more guilty of the blatant lies and fabrication than you can imagine. If you’re too scared to speak to an expert or scholar face to face than I’d understand, because I’m sure the devil would prefer to keep you right where you are. And if you think the point of this whole debate is to be the person with the last word, then I’ll let you win right now because you’re obviously some major cyber loser with way too much free time on your hands. Peace
Bluv said: "Who said Ibn Masood rejected the Qu'ran?"
Ibn Masud did. Unfortunately, you never bothered to read what your sources say:
Jami at-Tirmidhi 3104—[Ibn Masud said]: “O you Muslim people! Avoid copying the Mushaf and recitation of this man. By Allah! When I accepted Islam he was but in the loins of a disbelieving man”—meaning Zaid bin Thabit—and it was regarding this that Abdullah bin Mas’ud said: “O people of Al-Iraq! Keep the Musahif that are with you, and conceal them.”
Ibn Masud also said: “The people have been guilty of deceit in the reading of the Qur’an. I like it better to read according to the recitation of him [i.e. Muhammad] whom I love more than that of Zayd Ibn Thabit” (Ibn Sa’d, Kitab al-Tabaqat al-Kabir, Vol. 2, p. 444).
Are you calling Ibn Masud a "dork"? Is this any way to treat Muhammad's companions?
Is everyone noticing a pattering here? A Muslim will come on this site, making claims that he (or she) can't possibly defend. Then, when we start quoting Islamic sources to show him he's wrong, he says that we're not worth his time, he calls us some names, and leaves. Why do Muslims always run from their own sources?
Bluv said that thousands of people had memorized the Qur'an. Got a source for that Bluv? Of course not, because you simply believe what you're told to believe, instead of reading what your sources say. Indeed, you didn't even bother reading Sahih Muslim, where Abu Musa talks about two entire Surahs that Muslims forgot!
Sahih Muslim 2286—Abu Musa al-Ash’ari sent for the reciters of Basra. They came to him and they were three hundred in number. They recited the Qur’an and he said: You are the best among the inhabitants of Basra, for you are the reciters among them. So continue to recite it. (But bear in mind) that your reciting for a long time may not harden your hearts as were hardened the hearts of those before you. We used to recite a surah which resembled in length and severity to (Surah) Bara’at. I have, however, forgotten it with the exception of this which I remember out of it: “If there were two valleys full of riches, for the son of Adam, he would long for a third valley, and nothing would fill the stomach of the son of Adam but dust.” And we used to recite a surah which resembled one of the surahs of Musabbihat, and I have forgotten it . . .
And what about more than a hundred verses disappearing from Surah 33, according to Aisha?
Abu Ubaid, Kitab Fada’il-al-Qur’an—A’isha . . . said, “Surat al-Ahzab (xxxiii) used to be recited in the time of the Prophet with two hundred verses, but when Uthman wrote out the codices he was unable to procure more of it than there is in it today [i.e. 73 verses].”
What about the verses of stoning for adultery and breastfeeding adults? Why aren't these verses in the Qur'an? Don't tell me you haven't even bothered to read Sunan Ibn Majah!
Sunan ibn Majah 1944—It was narrated that Aishah said: “The Verse of stoning and of breastfeeding an adult ten times was revealed, and the paper was with me under my pillow. When the Messenger of Allah died, we were preoccupied with his death, and a tame sheep came in and ate it.”
Will Bluv change his beliefs after reading these sources? No. He'll continue to believe what he's been taught to believe, even though it completely contradicts his own sources.
And that's the difference between Bluv and Umar Lee. Umar is willing to think critically about Islam. Bluv runs from the truth.
Bluv still ain't done yet.
" Who said Ibn Masood rejected the Qu'ran? Let me guess one of your dork friends orientalises who is almost as ignorant as you?"
No, it was your 'dork islamic scholars'.
Here's the reference
"The people have been guilty of deceit in the reading of the Qur'an. I like it better to read according to the recitation of him (Prophet) whom I love more than that of Zayd Ibn Thabit. By Him besides Whom there is no god! I learnt more than seventy surahs from the lips of the Apostle of Allah, may Allah bless him, while Zayd Ibn Thabit was a youth, having two locks and playing with the youth". Ibn Sa'd, Kitab al-Tabaqat al-Kabir, Vol. 2, p.444
"How can you quote a hadith without contextualizing or understanding its true meaning? Scholars spend years going through the meaning and implications of such profound statements and a bigot like you just does a little google search and all of a sudden you've discovered something 1400+ years of scholarship just happen to miss, LOL."
Um,,,this was what your islamic scholars preserved for you. They knew about it long before you did.
Sorry you're just too bigotted to see.
" because its just a transliteration so there is no right way to spell something in a completely different language, but I'm sure you wouldn’t appreciate that as your only true interaction with arabic or muslims in general has been through local shawarma shops."
Never been to one of those. I don't really think its a good idea to eat meat off a stick that's been sitting out all day. And hummus. Actually all arab food is disgusting but you feel free though.
"Silly rabbit, concepts like textual criticism only came into play because your texts are all screwed up to begin with. "
And you know this how?
"Like I said the Qu'ran was preserved by memory word for word by thousands of people, and still is. "
This version of the Koran you mean? Because the first version DIED at yamaha. And Surah at-Tawba is short about 150 or so verses.
Abdullah b. `Umar reportedly said, 'Let none of you say, "I have got the whole of the Qur'an." How does he know what all of it is? MUCH OF THE QUR'AN HAS GONE. Let him say instead, "I have got what has survived."'Jalal al Din `Abdul Rahman b. Abi Bakr al Suyuti, al-Itqan fi `ulum al-Qur'an, Halabi, Cairo, 1935/1354, Volume 2, p. 25.
" I myself have memorized a good portion of it as most muslims have and as I stated earlier..."
Right, you mean this version. Not the original.
" I stated earlier the companions including Uthman were memorizers of the Qu'ran, which reads like (not exactly) poetry, something the Arabs were famous for engraving in their memory banks."
Completely off-topic but you don't seem to know or care.
" I've never even heard of a Christian who has memorized a page of the bible never mind half of it although I guess they could probably choose from the different versions of it and see what was easier (Mormons, catholic, Jehovah witnesses etc) "
Considering the Koran is a third of the size of the New Testament alone that's not saying much. And the repetitive statements 'Allah is knowing, wise', 'Allah is oft forgiving', 'Which of your lords pleasures would you deny' appear over and over again, makes it that much smaller. Think Austin Powers and the Swedish pump...
Besides, I would rather think it's more important to learn and inwardly digest as opposed to 'show up and throw up' religious verses. That's the hard work. Not memorization.
One side note, The Mormons, JW, Catholics are not Christians. They don't read the bible they read their own books which are scripture to them an opposed to the bible. Like the Koran.
""You think google searches and forum stalking makes you some sort of expert in anything but you are more guilty of the blatant lies and fabrication than you can imagine..."
I've only been on this blog. I really don't read other blogs to post irreverent comments like you do to stop people from exercising their rights to free speech.
And google searching? Isn't that how you ended up here?
"If you’re too scared to speak to an expert or scholar face to face than I’d understand, because I’m sure the devil would prefer to keep you right where you are."
What do you mean I don't want to talk to scholars, I've been talking to you all night...oh yeah you're not a scholar.
Silly rabbit alright.
I don't think the devil would bother with some 'silly rabbit' like me.
He'd much rather be Allah. That way he could have 1.5 billion followers following him, destroying life as he marched them into hell.
Yeah, you need peace. And common sense.
David said, "Is everyone noticing a pattering here? A Muslim will come on this site, making claims that he (or she) can't possibly defend. Then, when we start quoting Islamic sources to show him he's wrong, he says that we're not worth his time, he calls us some names, and leaves. Why do Muslims always run from their own sources?"
No no David, you don't understand. It's apart of contextualization according to Bluv.
If a source, Islamic or not, is quoted by a Kafir it's not being used correctly.
And if that Kafir is talking about islam and quoting sources, he's an internet blog stalker and google fiend and his citation counts less than it would if he were just a kafir.
If however a muslim cites it, regardless of whether or not it's sahih, it's valid.
David, you don't want to be a 'silly rabbit', now do you?
Look people, islam is not the truth and will never be, if it was the case they wouldn't be worried in changing the symbol of Barcelone because it has a cross in it, the symbol of red Cross putting Red Crescent, they are scared, the light is never scared of the light but the darkness is scared of it, it's time to accept the Lord Jesus Christ before you be forced to bow in the last day....Me i wouldn't have any issue if someone come over to my country and distribute the Quran, i want the people to see the lies that are there, if muslims believe that is the same case, let the muslims read the Holy Bible specifcally the Neew testament so they can prove by themselve that Christianity is a "LIE"...@Fernando, obrigado irmao, te desejo o mesmo e espero puder partilhar contigo as minhas experiences nos paises islamicos!
A previous poster claimed that Christians brought slavery to America.
This claim is completely false.
In fact Native Americans practiced slavery. They enslaved other Native Americans.
Native Americans made war on other Native Americans, captured other Native Americans, enslaved other Native Americans, and sometimes tortured and cannibalized other Native Americans
The hostility that these conditions created were exploited by Europeans. The Inca, a dominant tribe, were defeated by a tiny number of European soldiers, and many Native American troops all too eager to fight the Inca.
Christians are NOT unique in practicing slavery. Christians ARE unique in that they fought and sacrificed their own lives to end the enslavement of others. They did so in obedience to the UNIQUE Judeo Christian message: God created us all as equal brothers and sisters; God loves us all; We are to love each other as He loves us.
The central Jewish narrative is the narrative of "Let my people go."
This is utterly contrary to Islam, a religion that emphasizes power and submission.
The Islamic Slave Trade is the world's largest. By the way, if there are any Slavs reading, any descendants of folk from Slavic Eastern Europe, your Slavic ancestors, enslaved by Muslims, gave to Arabic the word "saqaliba," or eunuch, because so many of your ancestors were enslaved, and castrated, by Muslims, the world's champion slavers.
There are HUNDREDS of early Christians who fought against slavery. John Brown, Ramsay, Bartolme De Las Casas, Harriet Beecher Stowe, Wilberforce, St. Patrick, Quakers...now show many Muslims fought against slavery years ago?
Slavery of black people lasted 3 centuries in the West...Slavery in the Middle East lasted 14 centuries under Islam.
Excellent rebuttals deleting and David, our friend Bluv has bit the dust.... Once Muslims are shown the reality of Islam from their own sources, they tuck their tails between their legs and take off to the place where sun sets in a muddy pool.
What a silly rabbit that one was....
@Tpaul it was so funny it almost hurt! Sad thing is he showed everyone how clueless he was and how little he knew!
He won't come back. Even if he decided to be sneaky and delete his posts I quoted him extensively, highlighting his errors. He's toast and rational people willing to engage their minds will know it.
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