Nav. I'm here. We have christian scholars here.
Nav? Rev 1:88 "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."Nav who is Jesus or God the Father?
Who is this scripture refering to?
Nav here I have more Scripture. Search your Quran and tell me who is the beginning and the end.."When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand upon me, saying, ‘Fear not, I am the first and the last, and the living one; I died, and behold I am alive for evermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades.’" Revelation 1:17-18"And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: ‘The words of the first and the last, who died and came to life.’" Revelation 2:8"‘Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense, to repay every one for what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end’ ... He who testifies to these things says, ‘Surely I am coming soon.’ Amen. Come, Lord Jesus!" Revelation 22:12-13, 20The titles, "First and Last" and "the Beginning and the End, refer to God's sovereignty as the only Lord and God, that everything begins and ends with God since he alone sustains and controls all creation and events. No mere creature could utter such words, and yet the Lord Jesus does.Nav I'm waiting?! You ran to your scholar saying that we need to heed everything and confirm it with your scholar...So there are Christian scholars here...come.
Nav..Did u find those verses in the quran for me????OK ..don't worry I have them here!But to Allah belongs the Last and the First. S. 53:25He is the First and the Last, the Evident and Immanent; and He has full knowledge of all things. S. 57:3and to Us belong the Last and the First. S. 92:13Nav...your allah is called the beginning and the end...Wait, But Jesus is also called the beginning and the end!"‘Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense, to repay every one for what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end’ ... He who testifies to these things says, ‘Surely I am coming soon.’ Amen. Come, Lord Jesus!" Revelation 22:12-13, 20Nav...Jesus and your allah are both the beginning and the end! Infact Jesus is called the ALMIGHTY in Revelations 1:88 "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."..Nav? Where are you? I thought you were "seeking"!
Nav..If u need help understanding here are the scholars @ this site Samuel GreenDavid WoodHogan Elijah HagbardAnthony RogersWe can ask them to join if you bring your scholar Kal.
Nav...its been 24 hours now.. I thought you wanted to Learn, I thought you were seeking truth?!!!!
Nav? its now been 3 days. Where r u
Hello EverybodyI have an important question : its about the genealogy of the messiah.I'm raised in a jewish family and they said to me that yeshua is not the messiah because of many points, but one of the points pointed out to the genealogy of the messiah. and this is my question : why are there three names missing in the genealogy of the messiah ( Matthew 1:8 Joram ... ... ... Uzziah)? my question is not to attack cristianity but instead i wanted to defend it in my own house,because i think that yeshua is our messiah. Blessed by All women and man who follow yeshua Our Messiah.
To my brother acermdg..Are you claiming to be a scholar of Christianity? if so then you really should know better. Everything you quoted was from the book of revelation, the last book to be added to the bible. this is a dream that Paul that had, the same paul that murdered other christians that had the same views and beliefs that we Muslims and even Jesus (pbuh) had.The Qu'ran we can debate later, I can make my point by using your own book against you.The problem is you christians take the words of Paul instead of Jesus, if Jesus is your Lord then follow him NOT paul who contradicts everything Jesus said. if you get a red lettered bible it makes it even easier to see the words of jesus.Jesus (pbuh) never said one word in the book of revelations. while he walked on earth he never made any statement claiming to be god.if you say you want to know who is the beginning and the end i refer you to the book of Hebrews, chapter 7, verse 3. Melchisedek was "WITHOUT FATHER, WITHOUT MOTHER, WITHOUT DECENT, HAVING NEITHER BEGINNING OF DAYS NOR END OF LIFE". so the book of revelations that you love to quote so much is directly in contradiction with this. jesus had no father, but Melchisedek had no mother nor no father, even more desrving of worship that Jesus (if this is the test for worship).We Muslims attribute these qualities only to God (in arabic Allah) and we BOTH believe he is unseen,Exodus 33:20There shall no man see me, and live.John 1:18No man hath seen God at any time.John 6:46Not that any man hath seen the Father. 1 Timothy 1:17Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.1 Timothy 6:16Whom no man hath seen nor can see.1 John 4:12No man hath seen God at any time.people spoke and saw Jesus all his life.
To my brother acermdg..PART 2Jesus even clarifies what Paul says. You keep taking statements that say jesus is god, which again would go against what jesus said and taught. please explain to me how jesus claims divinity when he HIMSELF says,john chapter 20 verse 17,"i am returning to MY FATHER and YOUR FATHER, to MY GOD and YOUR GOD!" john chapter 17, verse 3, "the eternal life is for them to know YOU, the ONLY TRUE GOD and jesus christ whom YOU have sent"john chapter 14 verse 28"MY FATHER IS GREATER THAN I"JOHN CHAPTER 10 VERSE 29"MY FATHER IS GREATER THAN ALL'Mathew chapter 12 verse 28"I cast out devil with the spirit of god" Luke chapter 11 verse 20"I with the finger of god cast out devil" John chapter 5 verse 30"i can of my own self do NOTHING, as i hear i judge and my judment is just FOR I SEEK NOT MY OWN WILL BUT THE WILL OF MY FATHER"JOHN CHAPTER 14 VERSE 24,"THE WORDS THAT YOU HEAR ARE NOT MINE, BUT THE FATHERS WHO HAS SENT ME."everything here goes against what Paul and YOU (pauls followers) believe. paul never met, knew or spoke to Jesus, because he wrote at least 20 YEARS AFTER JESUS (if you dispute that find me any chirstian scholar who says so).you referred to revelations talking about jesus's return and paul writes "come, lord jesus",........WHICH AGAIN CONTADICTS WHAT JESUS SAYS AND TEACHES. but by quoting it i take it you also believe and choose Paul that when jesus returns YOU will call him LORD, we (muslims) wont be calling him lord nor the jews, hindus, athiest, but you will call him LORD. He addresses you christians who think he's god in Mathew chapter 7 verse 22, he says "On judgment day many will say to me, 'Lord! Lord! We prophesied in YOUR name and cast out demons in YOUR name and performed many miracles in YOUR name, and then will I declare unto them I NEVER KNEW YOU, DEPART FROM ME, ye that work iniquity'. amazing, he's addressing you, the people that do many mighty works (all the charity you guys do in HIS name) cast out devils and perform exorcisms in HIS name, and do all these miracles which you boast about and he will tell YOU "DEPART FROM ME"This is the problem, we follow christ better than you we love him, respect him, revere him more than you because we follow his teachings better than you, and you think WE are the enemy. christianity is split into so many sections but the main two is between paul and jesus. Jesus (pbuh) says dont drink alcohol and never drank it, Paul contradicts that and says it's fine so you people drink all the time and even have them in the churches where you claim to worship him. jesus WAS and preached being circumcised as it was brought from abraham and all the prophets since have done it, even jesus who said “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to FULFILL" (matthew 5,17), but paul contradicts this, says do not be circumcised (Galatians 5:2), but you choose to follow him and im guessing you eat pork too Mr Acermdg?please, tell me who follows jesus more the muslims or the christians? and who follows paul more, the muslims or the christians?i hope nobody here gets offended by what i have said, im glad we can get together and have these discussions, you christians are the closest to us, if anyone disrespects jesus or trys to belittle him, we too come to his aid and agree on many things as you do, our only point of difference is his divinity.please pick up the quran and read what it has to say about this mighty messenger and his beloved mother Mary who we are told (in the quran) is held above the women of all nations, no other woman on earth the ever lived is greater than Mary mother of jesus (pbut)
Are you claiming to be a scholar of Christianity? if so then you really should know better. Everything you quoted was from the book of revelation, the last book to be added to the bible. this is a dream that Paul that had, the same paul that murdered other christians that had the same views and beliefs that we Muslims and even Jesus (pbuh) had.If you want to correct people about the bible, you should show some evidence of having read it. Revelation was written by John, not Paul. It is a vision, not a dream, and was given to him, as the last living apostle, to show Jesus in his divine glory and the future course of events at the time when Jesus comes back to set up his kingdom on earth.As for Paul, he was an enemy of Christ and the church, but Christ met him and turned his life around, and his subsequent life preaching the faith of Christ is sufficient proof of the genuineness of that experience and commission.Jesus (pbuh) never said one word in the book of revelations.The book is actually called Revelation, and it contains many words directly from Jesus Christ (who is in any case the Word of God, so that all of the scripture is his own word). Try reading it, for you clearly have not done so.No man has seen God.In the New Testament, "God" usually signifies the Father. The Father is spirit. But Jesus is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. 17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. (Colossians 1:15-17)You even quote 1 John 4:12No man hath seen God at any time.But the same author writes:No one has ever seen God; the only God [or only Son], who is at the Father's side, he has made him known. (John 1:18)and that only God [or Son] is the one whom he describes thus:1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life, and the life was the light of men.... 14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.
That Jesus say that the Father is greater than he is no proof that Jesus is not God. He is the Son; the son defers to the Father, always.Amazingly, you quote from John 14:24. Reading the context would save you from exposing your ignorance:14:1 “Let not your hearts be troubled. Believe in God; believe also in me.This is putting himself alongside God.14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7 If you had known me, you would have known my Father also. From now on you do know him and have seen him.” 8 Philip said to him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.” 9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?The Quran says that Allah is the truth. (It also says he is the greatest deceiver, but who minds a bit of self-contradiction?) So Jesus is claiming an attribute of Allah. He is also saying that anyone who has seen him has seen the Father, which is only true if he himself is God and the Father is manifested in him.14:12 “Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I am going to the Father. 13 Whatever you ask in my name, this I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If you ask me anything in my name, I will do it.So Jesus is commanding belief in himself, which is putting himself in the place of God. He is telling them to pray to him, which should be done only to God; and he is telling them that he will answer prayers, which means he must be omnipresent so as to be able to hear their prayers.14:21 Whoever has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me. And he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him.” 22 Judas (not Iscariot) said to him, “Lord, how is it that you will manifest yourself to us, and not to the world?” 23 Jesus answered him, “If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. 24 Whoever does not love me does not keep my words. And the word that you hear is not mine but the Father's who sent me.So Jesus is telling them to keep his own commandments, which are also God's. He is not telling them God's commandments but telling them his own. This again puts him on the same level as God! Yet also the commandments that are his own are from the Father too. Also the Father and Jesus will come to the believer to make their home with him. Again, this puts the Father and Jesus on the same level. 25 “These things I have spoken to you while I am still with you. 26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.The Father is going to send the Holy Spirit in Jesus' name. Did you notice that? Not in the Father's name! Again, this puts Jesus on a level with the Father.
Jesus (pbuh) says dont drink alcohol and never drank itWrong!Jesus made about 240 gallons of wine for a wedding party that had run out. (John 2:6)He kept the Passover feast, whose ceremony requires the drinking of four cups of wine. At the Last Supper: Matthew 26:27 ...he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, saying, “Drink of it, all of you, 28 for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. 29 I tell you I will not drink again of this fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.Note again. In fact this was the third cup of the feast, the cup of redemption, so he would have drunk the first two already. This one he would not drink now because he was about to carry out the work of redemption on the cross.jesus who said “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to FULFILL" (matthew 5,17), but paul contradicts this, says do not be circumcised (Galatians 5:2)Jesus fulfilled the law. He completed it. Its whole purpose was bound up in him. The law was, in any case, given only to Israel, and was never imposed on the Gentiles. The whole Jewish church agreed on this. (Acts 15) If Gentiles try to be circumcised, they are effectively denying that Jesus has incorporated them into the church by the Holy Spirit.So who follows jesus more the muslims or the christians? and who follows paul more, the muslims or the christians?The answer is that Muslims do not follow Jesus at all, because they do not obey him but deny his very purpose in coming into the world. Christians do obey him and also the apostle through whom he gave much revelation about the current age.
Oliver-Wonderful explanations of Scripture! I hope that 'Babak Bani' takes the time to read them and learn. I have also read that Jesus changed the equivalent of 930 bottles of water into Wine at that wedding- he is a generous God!
Oliver you are such a fool, you poor fool you are just nothing to comment others work.
I have a question about the greek gods Mithra and dionysus i want to defend christisnity also but can someone tell me the jesus wasnt made up from the greek gods
heres question for you self proclaimed scholars. If jesus is god then why did he preach? are you saying that he preached himself? you say jesus is the son of god then follow that by saying he is god which is a fundemental contradiction at grass roots level. Never mind all the other jiberish you guys spout out just tell me if jesus is god did he preach himself cos if you say no he preached god then that means jesus wasnt god unless you believe in 2 gods.
I am somewhat amazed by the butchery of many biblical texts to deny the Deity of Christ and the Trinity. So amazing.
According to Babak Bani, the Book of Revelation was written by Paul. Actually, according to the book itself, it was written by an elder named John. According to Christian tradition, he was John the Apostle.
To Oliver,God bless you entirely for the beautiful testimony from the Bible.There are many people arguing Bible facts for the sake of arguind without even knowing the Bible. Remember when Jesus was provoked to answer twisted questions, He simply refused to answer and walked away... God bless you for taking the extra time and answer !!!
God bless u Bro. Oliver
I just wanna address one verse pointed out by Babak bani...he quoted a quarter of Jn 14:28...but I will quote it in full n refute himJohn 14:28You heard me say to you, 'I am going away, and I will come to you.' If you loved me, you would have rejoiced, because I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.In honesty I would like it if muslims deal with Biblica text in truth...This text provides great intrigue into why Jesus would expect His disciples to rejoice because He is going away...why? Even by saying He will suffer crucifixion? Jesus explains by adding that "for the Father is greater than I" which points to His humility in the incarnation because He had left His Glory and taken on flesh...Philippians 2: 6-7who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.If you read John14:28 in context with John 17:3-5John 17:3-5And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. 4 I glorified you on earth, having accomplished the work that you gave me to do. 5 And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.I believe its apparent Jesus made it clear why they should rejoice that He is going back to the Father in Heaven with whom He had glory before the foundation of the world. In this way the disciples are able to ask anything in Jesus' name (whom had been their Master, Friend, LORD and Brother and gave thim His promise even face to face) and it will be done.So this text doesn't in any way, shape or form deny the Deity of Our Lord and Savious God, Jesus Christ!
there are also christians who believe Jesus is what he testified he is the divine son of God not to be God himselfi am a christian and I rather believe what God testified about Jesus.. this is My beloved SON..and what Jesus testified about himself ..I say I am the SON of God..greets 2 peter3:16 ..which those who are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other Scriptures, unto their own destruction.
Revelation 2:8 “To the angel of the church in Smyrna write:These are the words of him who is the First and the Last, who died and came to life again.Jesus is God.
Yes youre right Jesus is the first and the last begotten sonandGod is the first and the last Godyou should ask the first and the last wat? You or youre teacher fill youreself in GodI just read the scriptures 2 Peter 3:16 He speaks about this subject in all his letters. Some things in them are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, leading to their own destruction, as they do the rest of the Scriptures. greetings a christian
Jesus IS the son of God. He is the 2nd person of the Holy Trinity who are God. There is one God made of three persons in the Holy Trinity,the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Jesus is 100% divine and 100% human. He is the Word Incarnate. He became Man to save us petty humans. He is Love. God, the Father loves us, Jesus loves us and the Holy Spirit loves us. God does not just love Christians. He loves Jews, Muslims and even atheists. All they have to do is ask for the Truth and they will be shown. Jesus is the Truth and He loves all of us. He just wants to be loved back.
yes I agree Jesus is the first and last created (born) human Son of God john 3:16 all other humans are born out of their parents up until Eve and Eve was taken out of Adam.And so all is created out of Adam and Adam was the first of all human creation and he was also the last he was the image of God gen 1:27 he is the king of paradise gen 1:26he is the father of all living for his wive is the mother of al living gen 3:20yes the Word is God and with His Word God created everything gen 1:3 and God SAID LET THERE BE..., but when God blew His spirit in the nostrils of man the word became flesh apart from God not being God but a creation of God.yes Jesus is the son of God on Earth and in Heaven in the past and futurein all this Jesus is not God, but clearly a divine creation of God and the image of God, like Seth was the image of Adam, but he was not Adam Jesus was one with God, but not God in person, like a man is one with his woman but not one in person like a child is one with his father/mother, but not one in persongreetings from a fellow christian2 Peter 3:16 He speaks about this subject in all his letters. Some things in them are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, leading to their own destruction, as they do the rest of the Scriptures.
Jesus being called the First and the Last is a title of YHWH in the Old Testament and is ONLY used of God, not a mere man. Also, No Trinitarian says Jesus is the Father.
Jesus was not created. He was begotten of the Father. Jesus is God. "In the beginning, was the Word, the Word was in God's presence and the Word was God" John 1:1Also, Jesus said "Before Abraham was, I AM." When Moses was speaking to God, through the burning bush, who did God call Himself "I Am. Jesus is God. If you are Christian and follow scripture, you cannot deny that.
I never denied the scriptures Jesus said "Before Abraham was, I am."but you or youre teachers have distort this scripture by adding that Jesus said: My name is the I AMjust let the verse speak for itself:VERSE: before Abraham was, I amMEANING: Jesus was before AbrahamVERSE: before Abraham was, I amYOURE DISTORTION: Jesus said his name is the I AMand the words I am is used by many prophets and kings trough out the bible, I dont think you would say that Moses claimed to be God when he said: 'here I am'why did God said His name is I AM, trough out the bible He makes Himself known to people by: I AM the lord your God I AM the God of.. I AM the lord who..it is a part of how He makes Himself knownthe definition of the first and last is not to be GOD, but you are uniqueand yes the Messiah is unique and his and our God is unique in that way we are not unique for we are all born from men only one is born from the spirit of God this is His son Adam later named as Malki-Sedeq and later known as Jesus greetings and LOVE from a follower of Jesus Christ2 peter 3:16... which IGNORANT and unstable people DISTORT, leading to their own destruction, as they do the rest of the Scriptures.
John 8:58"Very truly I tell you," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"I think it's important to read what the very next verse says after this to fully understand this conversation better.John 8:59At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.Why did they want to stone him? What would the reasons be, under Jewish law, to stone someone?I bet it wasn't because Jesus claimed to be preexistent before Abraham.Is there prior account of anyone in the Bible being killed for claiming to pre-exist? No, just claiming to be God.
We are human beings. we will argue, it is a fact. Religion, politics, sports, etc. Everyone will ALWAYS find a reason to support one side and dispute another. I prefer not to engage because it is useless, especially on blogs and public boards. I say, do your OWN studying and decide your religion or choose no religion. I know what my religious preference is but it is no one's business but my own. Respect each other's choice is all you can do. I think the real issue should be why so many people take a religious book and twist it. I refer to people like the Westboro baptists who think it is Christian to hate gay people and think it's okay to ridicule fallen military personel. I don't understand why there is a Quran yet some point out who women have many rights while many countries with a Muslim majority to provide women with any rights. I don't understand why the people of Waco, TX promoted death if they were Christians? Why some Muslims promote death to non-muslims? While other Muslims say "that is not true Islam." I think if someone can explain why a religious group twists the words of a book that supposedly all follow(i.e. christians the bible, Muslims the Quran, jews the Torah) then a lot of problems will be solved.
It's always amusing when someone like Jenna comes along, says she's not going to engage in criticism on the internet, then tells us we're wrong for criticizing other people's views, and doesn't even realize that she's doing exactly what she condemns in others. "Ladies and gentlemen, I, Jenna, declare that you are all WRONG for telling other people that they are WRONG!" LOL.
She needs to be fully informed as what happened in Waco......now if she would have stated about Jones town that would be different. But not make her point
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