Friday, May 1, 2009

Rafael Princ vs. Nadir Ahmed: Four Dialogues

I know that everyone is sick of Nadir, and that these posts may seem to be a waste of time. But the benefits will be extremely significant. Once all the facts are laid out, and all of the materials are collected, everything will be put together on a single site. Thus, whenever Nadir attempts to debate someone, or to speak in public, or to rail against people on PalTalk, he will be bombarded with the facts, which will be readily available to all. This will put an end once and for all to Nadir's self aggrandizement.

People are continuing to send me materials on Nadir. In this post, I'd like to consider Nadir's dealings with Rafael Princ, whom Nadir has backed down from repeatedly. (So much for Nadir's claim that everyone is running from him. In the following exchanges, we see that Nadir is the one running.)

DIALOGUE ONE: NADIR BACKS DOWN

Let's begin with an audio file, which can be heard by clicking here. Notice that Rafael challenges Nadir to debate him on the Bible and the Qur'an, and that Nadir changes the subject and backs down immediately.

DIALOGUE TWO: NADIR IS THE WORLD'S GREATEST MUSLIM DEBATER (IN HIS OWN MIND)

In this next exchange, Nadir declares that he is the greatest Muslim debater in the world. He also calls Shabir Ally a "fool" (not to mention a heretic) and says that all Muslims agree on this. (I find this strange, since when I attend a Shabir Ally debate, I see hundreds of Muslims there to support him. But when I attend a Nadir Ahmed debate, we can't even bribe Muslims to show up.)

rafa-el_1: up for a little debate now?
nadir_ahmed: wel.. kind of busy
nadir_ahmed: i thought you will invite me to your church
rafa-el_1: i need too practise material on you before debating this in public
rafa-el_1: yes I will
nadir_ahmed:
nadir_ahmed: ok.. when i receive the invitation you can practice on me
nadir_ahmed: you now know my arugments
nadir_ahmed: soo youre different
rafa-el_1: I already have rebutels too all of them
rafa-el_1: but the future will tell
nadir_ahmed: yea i know
rafa-el_1: nahh I will debate in januari the supject..original sin part of islam?
rafa-el_1: a hole other subject i will be dabting with you about
nadir_ahmed: ok
nadir_ahmed: do you plan to come to america ?
rafa-el_1: my first trip is too the UK...Will be talking with jay about the possibility's of debating in the usa
nadir_ahmed: ic
nadir_ahmed: do yo think jay is a good debater ?
rafa-el_1: average
nadir_ahmed: you might be able to land a job
nadir_ahmed: in anti-islamic apologetics
nadir_ahmed: like jay and sam
nadir_ahmed: just thnk you can get paid for the work you enjoy
rafa-el_1: That is not the kind of career I seek
nadir_ahmed: what kind of career do you want ?
rafa-el_1: I have amy master degree in psychology..this is a side thing for me
nadir_ahmed: ok
nadir_ahmed: do you think jay would support shamon for a debate ?
rafa-el_1: I think he would
nadir_ahmed: y?
rafa-el_1: because too be fair...sam is the one of the leading apoligist(against islam) out there
nadir_ahmed: but does jay think so ?
rafa-el_1: I don't think he will deny that sam is a great debator
rafa-el_1: but will ask him
nadir_ahmed: hm.. but i really dont see them supporting each other
nadir_ahmed: i think maybe
nadir_ahmed: they have different
nadir_ahmed: views
nadir_ahmed: or something
rafa-el_1: some seek honour and fame in it
rafa-el_1: others don't
nadir_ahmed: who do you think do?
rafa-el_1: I am not able too judge that
rafa-el_1: who you think is the best islamic debatopr out there
nadir_ahmed: me
rafa-el_1: besides yourself
nadir_ahmed: who do yo believe is the best islamic debater ?
rafa-el_1: depends which topic
nadir_ahmed: overall
nadir_ahmed: and tell the truth
rafa-el_1: on biblical subjects shabir ally....but he is coward too defend the quran
nadir_ahmed: lo
nadir_ahmed: lol
nadir_ahmed: you lied
nadir_ahmed: shabir is a fool
nadir_ahmed: and all muslism agree on that
nadir_ahmed: so you lied
rafa-el_1: shabir is a coward regarding his own Quran
rafa-el_1: you asked my opinion
nadir_ahmed: you lied about shabir and the bibe
nadir_ahmed: bible
nadir_ahmed: and you lied
rafa-el_1: so what got the opinion of all muslims got too do with it
nadir_ahmed: you know very well that shabir is a weak debator
rafa-el_1: so who you think is a good debater(besides yourself)
nadir_ahmed: and a heretic
nadir_ahmed: and a heretic
nadir_ahmed: almost apostate
rafa-el_1: isn't he a salafi like yourself
nadir_ahmed: hey.. i have to get some work done
nadir_ahmed: honesty is what will make you win
nadir_ahmed: and Glorify God
nadir_ahmed: not deception
nadir_ahmed: remember that
rafa-el_1: nadir we will see when you come here
rafa-el_1: with a duo respect..the sam shamoun debate wasn't anything compared what I will do with you
rafa-el_1: but with love
nadir_ahmed: shamon was humiliated
nadir_ahmed: i like that debate
nadir_ahmed: he huffs and puffs
rafa-el_1: me too
nadir_ahmed: and could not prove anything
nadir_ahmed:
rafa-el_1: lol ..he clearly was victorious
nadir_ahmed: sure..in style
nadir_ahmed: he won
nadir_ahmed: and charisma
nadir_ahmed:
nadir_ahmed: ok.. we will see what you can do
rafa-el_1: Inshallah
nadir_ahmed: ok... gota go
nadir_ahmed: take care
rafa-el_1: you too
nadir_ahmed is now offline.

DIALOGUE THREE: NADIR BACKS DOWN AGAIN

As everyone who interacts with Nadir knows, he seems to follow a standard pattern, which consists of the following steps:

Step One: Nadir challenges Christian X to a debate in an extremely boastful, rude manner. If Christian X refuses to debate because of Nadir's foul language, constant insults, lack of credentials, and lack of Muslim support, Nadir says that Christian X is running from his arguments.

Step Two: If Christian X, for whatever reason, agrees to debate, Nadir attempts to twist and mangle the topic and the debate format until the debate becomes absolutely unacceptable. If Christian X refuses to accept the debate due to Nadir's unreasonable and absurd terms, Nadir says that Christian X is running from his arguments. (For more on this, see "Nadir Ahmed's Amazing Debate Format.")

Step Three: If Christian X agrees to Nadir's outrageous terms and goes through with the debate, Nadir will be completely crushed in front of the audience. At the end of such humiliating defeats, Nadir will challenge Christian X to another debate. By this time, of course, Christian X is thoroughly fed up with Nadir and never wants to deal with him again. Christian X has also already defeated Nadir in public, which makes further humiliation unnecessary. At this point, Nadir declares to everyone that Christian X has refused to engage in another debate with him, and that this can only mean that Christian X is running from his arguments. (To see some examples of this, watch the end of Nadir's debates with Sam Shamoun and James White, where Nadir, sensing his total defeat, challenges both opponents to further debates. Nadir later says that they're running from him when they refuse.)

The following dialogue is a good illustration of Step Two. Rafael agrees to debate Nadir on whether Islam is from God, but Nadir insists that Rafael must not be allowed to offer evidence against Islam! Can anyone even imagine such a format? Wouldn't Muslims laugh at me if I said: "All right, we're going to have a debate on the Deity of Christ. I'm going to offer reasons for believing in the Deity of Christ, and my opponent is free to discuss my reasons. But under no circumstances is my opponent allowed to present evidence against the Deity of Christ." Nadir was obviously attempting to make the format unbearable, so that Rafael wouldn't agree to Nadir's ridiculous terms (at which point Nadir declares that Rafael is running from his arguments).

rafa-el_1: are you interested too debate me in CP his room?
rafa-el_1: there will be aprox 120 people
nadir_ahmed: topic ?
rafa-el_1: the evidence for islma
rafa-el_1: islam
nadir_ahmed: and christianity.
nadir_ahmed: sure
rafa-el_1: nope you challenged james whit on the topic
nadir_ahmed: did you forget about Christianity ?
rafa-el_1: evidence for islam
nadir_ahmed: ok
rafa-el_1: so that will be our topic
nadir_ahmed: fine
nadir_ahmed: fine
nadir_ahmed: but no red dot
rafa-el_1: Mashallah
nadir_ahmed: and we will concentrate on the evidence i present
nadir_ahmed: and you must knock it down
rafa-el_1: nope
rafa-el_1: I will bringn my evidence that islam isn't from God
nadir_ahmed: like i did with keith and james white
nadir_ahmed: that is a different debate
nadir_ahmed: trying to disprove islam is a different issue
nadir_ahmed: rather than focusing on it's evidences
nadir_ahmed: make up your mind
nadir_ahmed: remember..
rafa-el_1: the topic will be...Is islam a religion from God
nadir_ahmed: did i attack PAUL?
nadir_ahmed: ?
nadir_ahmed: in the jame white debate
nadir_ahmed: or
nadir_ahmed: with Keith hopkinds
nadir_ahmed: i NEVER attackd paul
rafa-el_1: you are too ignorant too attack paul
nadir_ahmed: or tried to disprove him
rafa-el_1: thats why you were smoked in those 2 debates
nadir_ahmed: well..i dont think so
nadir_ahmed: soo
nadir_ahmed: rather... i attacked
nadir_ahmed: what Christians present as evidence
nadir_ahmed: thats it
nadir_ahmed: however, I can disprove Paul
nadir_ahmed: easily
rafa-el_1: i will bring my objections
nadir_ahmed: . but that is a different debate
rafa-el_1: you will knock them down
rafa-el_1: If you knock down just 1 of mine arguments
rafa-el_1: I will become muslim
nadir_ahmed: that has nothing to do with the scientific, prophetic archaelogical evidence for Islam
nadir_ahmed: you are silly man.. who cares what you become
rafa-el_1: my arguments will contain science,historical etc
nadir_ahmed: ok... so you are running away from the evidence for Islam - need confirmation
nadir_ahmed: yes!
nadir_ahmed: i will save this pm.. a young boy wants to see it
nadir_ahmed: he has some questions
nadir_ahmed:
rafa-el_1: I am challenging you sir
rafa-el_1: too debate me
nadir_ahmed: not on our evidences
rafa-el_1: is islam a religion of allah
nadir_ahmed: this boy named salman is smart
nadir_ahmed: he can see through your deception
nadir_ahmed: aalll the evidence points towards ---> Islam
rafa-el_1: nadir...if he is smart..he would see that you are the 1 running away
nadir_ahmed:
nadir_ahmed: thank yo
nadir_ahmed: must go
nadir_ahmed: last time
rafa-el_1: nadir come too the room...And I will show you that the Quran is unscientific,unhistorical etc
nadir_ahmed: you are not able to deal with the evidence which i present to you
nadir_ahmed: simple
nadir_ahmed: you are defeated.
nadir_ahmed: go away
rafa-el_1: bring it
nadir_ahmed: are you sure ?
nadir_ahmed:
rafa-el_1: nadir..everybody is laughing at you on platalk
nadir_ahmed: you must only deal with the evidence which i presnt to you
rafa-el_1: even muslims told me that they were embaresseed too see you run from me
nadir_ahmed: i dont think so
nadir_ahmed: i think you are dreaming
rafa-el_1: just ask around
nadir_ahmed: sure did
rafa-el_1: you will see
nadir_ahmed: they loooooooooooooooooove my debate with CP
nadir_ahmed: i get flowers and kisses all the time
nadir_ahmed: after i am done with you
nadir_ahmed: then I will smash that coward CP
rafa-el_1: done with me? than you have too stop running
nadir_ahmed: arab christains are a true joy
rafa-el_1: and fave me
rafa-el_1: face*
nadir_ahmed: you are a small potato
nadir_ahmed: actaully
nadir_ahmed: i should put you on ignore
rafa-el_1: haha
nadir_ahmed: but yo are an arab christian
nadir_ahmed: and they are the most fun
nadir_ahmed: just becase of that
nadir_ahmed: i talk to you
rafa-el_1: doesn't it suck that I can read your Quran and you don't?
nadir_ahmed: because God has placed a very special type of stupidity in the Arab chrisitan
nadir_ahmed: it will do you nooooooooo good
nadir_ahmed: hey
nadir_ahmed: gota go
nadir_ahmed: take care
nadir_ahmed: ill come looking for you
rafa-el_1: pffff
nadir_ahmed: when the time is near.
rafa-el_1: keep running
nadir_ahmed: cya
rafa-el_1: run forest run

DIALOGUE FOUR: NADIR SAYS THAT CHRISTIANS ARE RUNNING FROM HIM, RAFAEL ONCE AGAIN AGREES TO DEBATE HIM, AND NADIR CHANGES THE SUBJECT

In the following dialogue, Nadir claims that he has a "huge support base." Where is this support base? Nadir once had to come on this blog under a false name to pretend that someone supports him.

Notice that Rafael again agrees to debate Nadir. What does Nadir do? Does he accept? Of course not. He changes the subject and tries to say that Sam Shamoun (who crushed him horribly here) is running from him. Follow Nadir's reasoning (or lack thereof). Nadir has a man repeatedly asking to debate him, and Nadir keeps backing down and changing the subject. Then, when he changes the subject, it's to show that everyone is scared to debate him!

Nadir is certainly one of a kind. We couldn't invent stuff like this if we tried.

rafa-el_1: lol...there are muslims that took that video serious?
rafa-el_1: wow they are dumber than I thought
nadir_ahmed: u bet
nadir_ahmed: in fact,
nadir_ahmed: there was a muslim from texas who was doubting his faith
nadir_ahmed: but now he is convinced
nadir_ahmed: after seeing athe christians run away
nadir_ahmed: he will be adding his testimony
nadir_ahmed: to that
nadir_ahmed: james white
nadir_ahmed: hasbeen expoosed
nadir_ahmed: badly
rafa-el_1: soo this 'muslim' doubted his faith...but when He sees a christian not willing too debate that topic WIT YOU. he becomes sure of his faith?
rafa-el_1: wow...talk about blind faith
nadir_ahmed: and sam shamoun
nadir_ahmed: i told him
nadir_ahmed: the evidence is unchallengable
nadir_ahmed: and the christians are hiding
nadir_ahmed: soo
rafa-el_1: I will detae you on that topic
nadir_ahmed: he saw it for himself
rafa-el_1: np
nadir_ahmed: hey
nadir_ahmed: did you know
nadir_ahmed: that when i went to challenge sam shamon
nadir_ahmed: about 2 years ago
nadir_ahmed: i went to his office
nadir_ahmed: and he hid in a back room ?
nadir_ahmed: i had 2 girls with me
rafa-el_1: you went too a mens working place?
nadir_ahmed: and htey were laughing at him
nadir_ahmed: sams
nadir_ahmed: shamouns
nadir_ahmed: syes
nadir_ahmed: yes
rafa-el_1: dor you have no respect?
rafa-el_1: that is called invadind privacy
nadir_ahmed: i was very respectful
nadir_ahmed: not really
nadir_ahmed: but
nadir_ahmed: he HID IN A BACK ROOM!
nadir_ahmed:
nadir_ahmed: soo i stood around
rafa-el_1: first of all...I don't believe you,but when this is infact true,it doesn't proof anything
nadir_ahmed: for about 35 minutes
nadir_ahmed: please ask him
nadir_ahmed: he will admit to it
rafa-el_1: like I already stated..I am more than happy too debate muhammad
nadir_ahmed: becausse all his friends were asking him to come out
nadir_ahmed: but he wouldnt
nadir_ahmed: we are talking about sam
nadir_ahmed: not you
rafa-el_1: ok sam doesn't want too debate you
nadir_ahmed: email him
rafa-el_1: so?
nadir_ahmed: HE HID IN A BACK ROOM!!
nadir_ahmed: LOL
rafa-el_1: so what?
nadir_ahmed: ahahaahah
nadir_ahmed: hahahaha
nadir_ahmed: omg
rafa-el_1: what point are you trying too make
rafa-el_1: or are you just trying too boast?
nadir_ahmed: boasting.. laughing..
nadir_ahmed: yea
nadir_ahmed: it is real incidents like that
rafa-el_1: nadir...everybody in the room and paltalk laughs at you for running from me
nadir_ahmed: which speak louder than words
rafa-el_1: you don't see me baosting about that
nadir_ahmed: i dont think anyone sees you as a condenter
nadir_ahmed: contender
nadir_ahmed: or someone who is a great challenge
nadir_ahmed: sorry
nadir_ahmed: but u are just a guy on paltalk
nadir_ahmed: nothing mroe
nadir_ahmed: more
nadir_ahmed: and your apologists
nadir_ahmed: run away
nadir_ahmed: from me
rafa-el_1: nadir...after your debate with sam shamoun,james white...you have became a laughing stoke
nadir_ahmed: james white
nadir_ahmed: sam shamoun
rafa-el_1: only david wood is willing too debate you
nadir_ahmed: talk is cheap
nadir_ahmed: the young man from texas didnt buy it
nadir_ahmed: and no one will
nadir_ahmed: keep it up
nadir_ahmed: ok
nadir_ahmed: gota go
nadir_ahmed: dont forget to save this pm
nadir_ahmed: and send it to fat boy shamoun
rafa-el_1: nadir just want too respond section of the debates you hadwith them
nadir_ahmed: and he will accept
rafa-el_1: even the muslims are apoligizing for you
nadir_ahmed: that he hid
nadir_ahmed: yawn
nadir_ahmed: i got a huge support base
rafa-el_1: loool
nadir_ahmed: good bye
rafa-el_1: most muslims I talk too aren't taking you seriously
nadir_ahmed is now offline.


These four dialogues show Nadir's complete inconsistency. When Nadir challenges someone to a debate, the conversation usually goes something like this:

NADIR: "Hey, Mr. Christian Scholar! You have to debate me! I'm Islam's greatest debater! All other Muslim debaters suck compared to me! And if you don't debate me, you're a coward! Now debate me so I can expose your filthy religion!"

CHRISTIAN SCHOLAR: "Wow, you behave like a child. I'm simply not interested in debating people who behave like children. Besides, I contacted some Muslims about you, and most of them have no clue who you are. Those who know you told me that you're one of the worst debaters who's ever lived, and that the Muslim community has absolutely no respect for you. Beyond this, you have no credentials whatsoever, you constantly insult your opponents, and some people think you're insane."

NADIR: "LOL! LLLLOOOOOOOLLLLL! I knew you were a coward! You're running from my arguments! Just like all the other Christian cowards who backed down from me! Look, when someone challenges you to a debate, you have to accept! If you don't accept, you're a fat coward! It's that simple! Coward! Coward! Coward!"

But what happens when Nadir is challenged? As we've seen, the conversations go something like this:

CHRISTIAN: "Nadir, I challenge you to debate me."

NADIR: "Um, let's talk about someone else. Hey, that Sam Shamoun is running from me!"

CHRISTIAN: "You mean the same Sam Shamoun who humiliated you in one of the most one-sided debates in history?"

NADIR: "Yeah, that's him. He's scared to death of me. I went to his office and he hid from me."

CHRISTIAN: "So are you going to debate me or not?"

NADIR: "Not so fast. There's some other Christian on the internet who said something false about me one time. I'd like to focus on him for a while."

CHRISTIAN: "He doesn't want to debate you. But I do. I'm right here. Come on. Let's do this."

NADIR: "Um, did I mention Sam Shamoun already? He's scared of me."

If someone refuses to debate Nadir because he has no credentials, is a complete liar, has no support from the Muslim community, has no knowledge of either Christianity or Islam, and behaves like a nine-year-old boy, Nadir says he must be scared. Yet when someone challenges Nadir, again and again, to debate a basic topic, and Nadir actually runs out of the room, this is somehow completely reasonable. Then Nadir goes around telling everyone that Christians are scared of him. Is it just me, or is this absolutely pathetic?

30 comments:

Bartimaeus said...

David I really appreciate you blog and it has been very helpful in my personal ministry to Muslims. Bur why all this attention to Nadir. Helost all credabiblity when he debates James White and Sam Shamoun. It is quite evident that Nadir suffers from meglamania and giving him all this attention only seems to massage his own ego.

David Wood said...

Bartimaeus,

Have you been reading the posts and the comments? I've explained several times why Nadir requires further attention. True, you and I know that Nadir has been crushed repeatedly and deserves no attention whatsoever. But Nadir is at work day and night talking to people on the internet, trying to convince them that he's a respected apologist. And he gets away with it, because not everyone knows the facts about him. Thus, my goal is to put together a final effort against Nadir, and to compile all the material together onto a site dedicated solely to him. Then Christians and Muslims can make sure that everyone is aware of this Nadir resource, and we'll never have to worry about him again. If we don't give him this attention, he'll continue to deceive people about himself.

ehteshaam Gulam said...

When is Nadir Going to stop doing this stuff? He's 37 years old-- this stuff he's doing isn't really helping Islam.

Semper Paratus said...

I would like to propose a theory. I think there may very well be two Nadir's. One is sane, peaceful, and honest, and the other is something else altogether. Consider the facts:

Nadir1: Islam is a religion of peace...

Nadir2: (Boasting) Sam is scared of me...He hid when I went to challenge him to debate...(You know, the Sam who kicked my tail in a debate so bad that I still can't sit down...that Sam.)

Nadir1: I do not believe in wife beating...

Nadir2: I was arrested for domestic battery...

Nadir1: I don't believe in Mu'tah...

Nadir2: I had a "quickie-marriage" to a woman...

Nadir1: God curses people for believing in the swoon theory, for example - Shabir Ally whose son is blind....

Nadir2: Ahmed Deedat believes in the swoon theory, but I wouldn't/won't say that he was cursed by God though he had a stroke that left him unable to speak.

Nadir1: I will debate anyone, anywhere, any time...

Nadir2: I won't debate you, but I will play all manner of games and then accuse you of running from me...

Nadir1: I don't believe in Taquiyya...

Nadir2: I don't believe in Taqiyya (wink)....

I am sure I missed a hundred other examples, but the Two-Nadir's hypothesis looks pretty strong in light of what I did compile. Of course this theory has to compete with and show that it can explain the evidence better than certain other rival theories, such as: 1) the compulsive liar hypothesis; 2) the split-personality hypothesis; and 3) the Nadir-is-Nuts hypothesis. Nevertheless, it has much to be said in its defense and should be considered when weighing the evidence.

nma said...

Why does he look so gloomy in his photos? Doesn't he have hope that he would go to Allah's heaven? If he doesn't, it is not surprsing since even Mohmmed,Allah's pick for devine revelation, was not sure he would go to A's heaven (Hadith vol. 5, no. 266).


The Devil tempted him with pride and jealousy. Again not surprising since there exists a comparison between Allah and the Devil.

1) The Devil tempts humans with various things.
Allah tempts humans with wine, houris and other 'glorious' and sensual things.

2) The Devil deceives humans.
Allah deceives humans (Surat Al-Nisa 4:142 and the account of crucifixion in Quran).

3) The Devil quotes scriptures.
Allah quotes scriptures in a twisted way.

4) The Devil is the enemy of God
Allah is the enemy of God.

Locrian said...

Quote: "rafa-el_1: who you think is the best islamic debatopr[sic] out there
nadir_ahmed: me"

(Verily, Allah does not like such as are proud and boastful.) meaning, one who is proud and arrogant, insolent and boasts to others. He thinks that he is better than other people, thus thinking high of himself, even though he is insignificant to Allah and hated by people. Mujahid said that Allah's statement,

[إِنَّ اللَّهَ لاَ يُحِبُّ مَن كَانَ مُخْتَالاً فَخُوراً]

(Verily, Allah does not like such as are proud) means arrogant, while,

[فَخُوراً]

(boastful) means boasting about what he has, while he does not thank Allah. This Ayah indicates that such a person boasts with people about the bounty that Allah has given him, but he is actually ungrateful to Allah for this bounty.

http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=4&tid=11137

Main Point: "even though he is insignificant to Allah and hated by people."

What can you say? He's as insignificant to Allah, as he is to the apologetic community. *shrugs shoulders*

The Fat Man said...

Semper Paratus good analysis. Sometimes when you talk to him in PM he is almost lucid, kind of makes me sad.

I do want to point out, one more time that the domestic was more then likely a bogus charge. He was found not guilty by a jury of his peers.

But either way he was definitly not were he should of been and the incident was on July 10th, 2006. He was divorced from Fatima on May 31'st 2006.

David Wood said...

I wonder if the domestic violence charge was really bogus. Keep in mind, Nadir's wife did accuse him of abuse. However, it's not always easy to prove things in court. If it came down to his word versus her word, there's enough room for reasonable doubt. Also, we've seen that Nadir's explanation of the charge ("She said it to get all of my nonexistent money") was simply false.

The Fat Man said...

David, I'm not saying that nothing happend. I'm not saying that Nadir was not out of line. WHat I am saying is that when people bring up Wife Beating, or domestic battery. Images come to ones mind. I dont think those images are supported by the court records. From what I read, and there was a lot more then what I had coppied. (I aready had spent $15 dollars, thats 15 dollars to much on Nadir.)

It looks like Nadir showed up at his X wives place, he was un welcome, a argument insued, screaming yelling etc... And she called the police. He may have had "Contact" and that was the word used "Contact". Now normaly these sorts of things it would say "HE THEN PULLED MY HAIR... Through me down on the ground... Choked me... Punched me... Kicked me..." etc... Also there would be photos or the mention of bruises, laserations etc... Hospital reports etc... There was none of that.

I cant believe I'm defending Nadir, however the Man code demands that I give him the benfit of the doubt especialy since he was found not guilty.

It could be that maybe she kicked the crap out of him. I have a cousin who's wife bashed him with a frying pan. No joke broke his jaw split him open pretty good. He pushed her down on the floor to get her off of him. THe police were called, he's bleeding she says he knocked me down. They ask him, he says.. "Yeah I pushed her down" and he went to jail. Some woman are like that, they give more then they get.

The Fat Man said...

One more thing, about digging up the wonderfull life of Nadir. Is that the court records show a consitent patter of totaly obnoxious, anti social behavior. However unlike my own obnoxious anti social behavior from my youth. He cant resort to the excuse of "I was high or drunk". In other words its all pure NADIR. And that is really the trully sad part.

David Wood said...

Fat Man,

My objection is simply that the charge says he hit her. It reads:

"He knowingly and without legal justification made physical contact of an insulting or provoking nature with Fatima Qureshi a family or household member of the defendant, in that he struck Fatima Qureshi."

So it sounds like he slapped her or something. The problem is that it's awfully difficult to prove a slap in court.

True, she could be making it up. But I must say that I would trust anyone on earth more than I trust Nadir.

ChristianJR4 said...

David and "The Fat Man",

Where exactly are you getting the court records from? I searched online for public court records but the ones I found cost quite a bit to use them. Is there an online database that shows this information without having to pay a hefty fee (or better for free)?

The Fat Man said...

David, I see your point. Yes he could of slapped her. I am often insesnitive on these matters. The first time I encountered a woman who was really beatin by her husband. I said to her "oh that doesnt look so bad, I bet he looks a lot worse."

See for me at that time and still somewhat today, bruises, cuts etc... are simply rights of passage. You werent in a fight unless you had some marks on you.

Take for example just a few decades ago. Televison shows like The Honeymooners, and I Love Lucy. Voilence was always a sugestive threat if not a overt threat to woman. The threat of violence was not set in a dark atmospher but instead in commedy.

So to the woman who read this blog I appologies.

Nabeel Qureshi said...

Nadir - where'd you go? Why aren't you clarifying this issue?

The Fat Man said...

ChristianJR4
I actualy drove to the Peroia County Court house, and spent a hour or so looking it up.

Sepher Shalom said...

Ehteshaam > "When is Nadir Going to stop doing this stuff? He's 37 years old-- this stuff he's doing isn't really helping Islam."

Perhaps consider the idea that Nadir isn't doing any of this for Islam. Perhaps consider that Nadir isn't motivated by bringing glory to Allah, but rather motivated by bringing glory to Nadir.

Royal Son said...

Ehteshaam - I hope the materials provided on this blog have helped you to make a firm decision to stay as far away from Nadir Ahmed as possible.

If you wish to pursue the world of apologetics, you will do much better without him. In fact, having him as a mentor would only damage your work.

As should be pretty evident from this site, David, Nabeel & Co are always interested to interact with muslim folks who are serious, and dedicated to Islamic apologetics. I have never seen them "run" from anybody as far as debating is concerned.

Why ? Because when a person has the truth on their side, there is no need to resort to underhanded tactics. Nadir on the other hand has scraped them bottom of his apologetic barrel and his arguments have been found wanting.

Get on board with someone like Bassam Zawadi or Shabir Ally. They are much more respectable gentlemen that would be more than happy to help you in your endeavours.

Funny isn't it? We try to help opponents of the faith. It is a curious world we live in, but I guess the love of Christ transcends the ways and thoughts of the natural man.

Ehteshaam, I pray that you will one day have an encounter with the risen Lord and be graced by Him.

Rafa-el_1 said...

Nabeel Qureshi said...
Nadir - where'd you go? Why aren't you clarifying this issue?

Rafa-el_1 says:

Don't hold your breath. There is no way too explain this away.

nadir has got 2 options:

1: He has too admit that christians aren't running from him but are quite happy to destroy and refute his weak 'arguments'(Bassicly showing that he lied concerning christians running from him)

2: Accept the debate challenge I made to him. In the case he we choose the 2e option I will take it as my personnal task to completly destroy his credibility in that debate.Godwilling his career wil end with that debate ( if it is not already ended)


But like I already said. I am not holding my breath.

David Wood said...

Nabeel said: "Nadir - where'd you go? Why aren't you clarifying this issue?"

Nadir is simply trapped no matter what he says. He knows we won't believe anything he says about his wife, since he's a liar and we've already caught him lying on this issue ("She accused me of battery to get a large settlement of money I don't even have").

Concerning his absurd accusations against Shabir Ally, Nadir is just stuck. The only way to show that he's consistent would be to say that Ahmed Deedat is cursed (since what happened to Deedat looks far more like the sort of curse we would expect--a man who speaks constantly against the true religion suffers from a stroke that leaves him unable to speak at all). But Nadir wouldn't dare say that about Ahmed Deedat, so he has to remain completely silent.

The only alternative would be to say, along with me and others here, that it's difficult to conclude who's cursed and who isn't without some compelling evidence one way or another. But if Nadir says this, he would have to admit that he was wrong about Shabir (and me), and Nadir's pride is so great that he refuses to apologize, no matter how foolish and deceptive his claims are.

So Nadir understands that the only thing he can do is keep silent, and that's exactly what he's doing. Who would have thought that "Taqiyya Incarnate," the "Mouth of Michigan" would have been so easily refuted!

Ah well. I'm going to leave Nadir alone . . . for a week, while I get ready for our debates next weekend. When I return on Monday, we'll look at Nadir's email exhange (and his insults, and his boasting, and his lies, and his threats) with Mike Licona. Stay tuned!

The Fat Man said...

Oh no a week with out Nadir what am I ever going to do :) good luck on the debates.

Ehteshaam Gulam said...

Okay I just got several calls from Nadir-- aparently he wants to explain everything--since he won't do it for some reason and Me being his friend I am going to try to clear some stuff about him:

* Apparently Nadir does have something against Shabir Ally-- he admitted to me. However he says he doesn't know why Shabir's son has been struck blind. But its confirmed that Nadir doesn't like Shabir Ally. The reason why is because Shabir only debates Biblical topics and not other topics realating to Islam.

* Why does Nadir keep challenging people to debates on Islam, Christianity, scripture, etc? Because he feels he is America's top Muslim Apologist. This is laughably false. Rather what I suggest to Nadir is him helping me out with research on Islam and Christianity rather than knocking on every Christian apologists door, challenging them to a debate, losing and then screaming that he won on his website.

* Nadir will never ever admit to losing. Rather no matter what the outcome of the debate he will claim he won. Me on the other hand will be honest with the outcome of the debate. I'll be honest with my debate with David Wood: I LOST THE DEBATE. DAVID WOOD CLEARLY BEAT ME. I was unorganized, I fumbled on my sentences, I had no idea what I was going to say at times, My rebuttals were disorganized and I didn't speak enough. It's okay though-- I think I modestly accomplished my goal: there is evidence for what Islam has to say about the Crucifixion of Christ. Nadir will never be as honest as me when it comes to debate outcomes-- rather he will almost always say he won, even when the evidence shows otherwise.

*If you want to see Nadir embarrass himself see this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6qk83XTLVk&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.examinethetruth.com%2Fpage_evidence_01.htm&feature=player_embedded

However there is there is absolutely nothing in this video where James White runs away from anything. I couldn't stop laughing after this. James white rips him apart here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcDPtHMCXEU&feature=related

But the funny thing is Nadir still claims that James White is running from him!

I still consider Nadir Ahmed a good friend of mine-- but in all intectual honesty-- I don't think he is helping Islam. I am a Muslim and would do anything in my power to help spread the message of Islam-- but I feel enough is enough. Nadir may be a fellow Muslim-- but let's face the facts he isn't really helping Islam.

The most painful thing ever to watch was Nadir calling out Nabeel Qureshi (whom I also consider a friend) and asking whether Nabeel spread the rumor of Nadir having sex with prositutes. This was soo painful to watch. Nabeel was like "leave that to your living room"-- and I agree-- what the hell does that have to do with the topic: Is the N.T. reliable?

I do give Nadir props for his courage to do debates, insulting his opponents and losing--- kind of.

Nakdimon said...

Mr. Esteshaam. I thank you for your honest post and I find it pleasant to see a Muslim expressing some self-criticism. I would like to add my $0.02.


* Apparently Nadir does have something against Shabir Ally-- he admitted to me. However he says he doesn't know why Shabir's son has been struck blind. But its confirmed that Nadir doesn't like Shabir Ally. The reason why is because Shabir only debates Biblical topics and not other topics realating to Islam. Which I find strange. Since there was made a comparison with Ahmed Deedat earlier, let’s apply that here too. What Islamic topic did Ahmed Deedat ever debate that Shabir has not debated? I am not aware of any Islamic topic outside of the Crucifixion (not really an Islamic topic) or the validity of the Qur’an. Shabir has done both. In fact, Shabir has done more! Shabir has debated Muhammad in the Bible with dr James White and the prophet hood of Muhammad with Anis Shorosh, which Deedat has never defended in a debate. So if that is the sole purpose of Nadir disliking Shabir, he is again being inconsistent and completely dishonest. He doesn’t resent Deedat for that same reason, does he? Therefore the only “motive” of Nadir disliking Shabir is envy!


* Why does Nadir keep challenging people to debates on Islam, Christianity, scripture, etc? Because he feels he is America's top Muslim Apologist. This is laughably false. Rather what I suggest to Nadir is him helping me out with research on Islam and Christianity rather than knocking on every Christian apologists door, challenging them to a debate, losing and then screaming that he won on his website. I couldn’t have put it better: “laughably false”. But I don’t think that you should depend on Nadir for his research skills. Those are equally deceptive. Should Nadir bump into something that would confirm the Christian viewpoint, he would disregard it, suppress it or distort it into something that it doesn’t even say.

* Nadir will never ever admit to losing. Rather no matter what the outcome of the debate he will claim he won. Me on the other hand will be honest with the outcome of the debate. I'll be honest with my debate with David Wood: I LOST THE DEBATE. DAVID WOOD CLEARLY BEAT ME. I was unorganized, I fumbled on my sentences, I had no idea what I was going to say at times, My rebuttals were disorganized and I didn't speak enough. It's okay though-- I think I modestly accomplished my goal: there is evidence for what Islam has to say about the Crucifixion of Christ. Nadir will never be as honest as me when it comes to debate outcomes-- rather he will almost always say he won, even when the evidence shows otherwise. Mr. Esteshaam. A debate isn’t won or lost by bluster, bombastic statements or eloquence of speech. They are won by substance. Although I believe you did lose the debate on substance, since historical evidence is overwhelmingly in favour of our standpoint, I think your analysis on how you lost the debate is in error. Being unorganized means just that. Fumbling on your sentences means just that. It is the argumentation that is being brought forth that counts. The problem is that you think you have substance to your arguments, because you start with the presupposition that Islam is right and it must be right even if it’s wrong. I find it an incredibly dishonest approach. This results into a presentation where all the clear passages that clearly refute your position are presented as “questionable” and all the unclear passages are presented as “evidence” for your position, but then only when you isolate them from the clear passages they are connected with.

*If you want to see Nadir embarrass himself see this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6qk83XTLVk&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.examinethetruth.com%2Fpage_evidence_01.htm&feature=player_embedded

However there is there is absolutely nothing in this video where James White runs away from anything. I couldn't stop laughing after this. James white rips him apart here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcDPtHMCXEU&feature=related

But the funny thing is Nadir still claims that James White is running from him!

I still consider Nadir Ahmed a good friend of mine-- but in all intectual honesty-- I don't think he is helping Islam. I am a Muslim and would do anything in my power to help spread the message of Islam-- but I feel enough is enough. Nadir may be a fellow Muslim-- but let's face the facts he isn't really helping Islam.

The most painful thing ever to watch was Nadir calling out Nabeel Qureshi (whom I also consider a friend) and asking whether Nabeel spread the rumor of Nadir having sex with prositutes. This was soo painful to watch. Nabeel was like "leave that to your living room"-- and I agree-- what the hell does that have to do with the topic: Is the N.T. reliable?
Man, even I thought that was painful. I couldn’t believe he would do that. First because that wasn’t the topic, second Nabeel wasn’t even part of the debate. Including his parents in it too and everything. Just straight up embarrassing. If I would have been a Muslim in attendance I would have gotten up and shouted him down, explaining to him that he was an embarrassment to the faith. To think that he has the guts to critique Shabir Ally. Shabir is a straight up gentleman. Nadir is the exact opposite.


I do give Nadir props for his courage to do debates, insulting his opponents and losing--- kind of.I don’t give him props for anything. He needs to be de-brainwashed INTO sanity and OUT OF absurdity.

Nakdimon

Fernando said...

Dear Ehteshaam Gulam...

I imaginne this situation is bery difficult to you...

please: do always remainde that iff Nadir is your friende, he's needing all your support is this time...

please: do help him, trie to explain in wjere he's wrong, do not hostilize him and always show to him that he, has an human personn, is ALWAYS worth being loved...

May God do help you bothe...

Royal Son said...

Ehteshaam, you've gained a lot of respect from me.

Semper Paratus said...

Fat Man, thanks for making sure that distinction was understood; that is why I said "arrested" rather than convicted. I just couldn't leave it off the list, for then it wouldn't have been as long and my "Two-Nadir's" hypothesis, which was tongue-in-cheek (of courrse), wouldn't have looked as compelling.

IslamSINS said...

"I do give Nadir props for his courage to do debates, insulting his opponents and losing--- kind of."

Ehteshaam, I don't think it is courageous on Nadir's part, but another example of his malignant narcissism.

You, for example, showed great courage and humility in your public assessment of your debate with Dr. Wood. You will be a rapidly rising debater because your reputation as a man of character will put you in front of the other 99% who behave like Nadir.

So, I will pray that, as you do your research, you will be led by the Spirit of the Living God to realize that it will not be your research or your debates that will open heaven's doors to you, but every word proceeding from the mouth of YHWH. He has revealed Himself to His creation in the personage of Christ, the only Savior of mankind.

When I say "God bless you, Ehteshaam", I mean that in the deepest sense of the benediction. May the Spirit of the True God break your heart with your need of the only Savior offered to us: Christ, King of Kings, Lord of Lords, your Judge and my Judge.

Carl said...

For whatever it's worth I feel your hope that the evidence and documentation "will put an end once and for all to Nadir's self aggrandizement" is a bit too optimistic and even unrealistic. I've dealt with many cultists (Oneness Pentecostals, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, etc.) as well as followers of nonChristian religions (Muslims mainly but also New Agers, etc.) and even atheists/agnostics who fit the exact same mold as Nadir. They have elevated themselves to such a level that no amount of documentation of their avoidances, lies, etc. will ever sink in their thick skulls and cause an end once and for all to their self aggrandizement. I seriously doubt Nadir is any exception. I firmly expect that whenever anyone harkens back to the documentation you provided, Nadir will claim they are false and you fabricated them. Or make some other weak excuse to dismiss them. I've seen this time and time again over many years from those who rail against Christianity believing themselves to have the supreme truth with superior skills and abilities.

It's such a delusion it wouldn't be much of a stretch to hear them proclaim (or have someone proclaim loudly for them as they enter the room)...

"Faster than a speeding bullet!
More powerful than a locomotive!
Able to leap tall buildings in a single bound!..."

Okay, that last part is tongue-in-cheek but the point is those misguided folks of which I refer have elevated themselves so high in their delusions of grandeur that no amount of reality will convince them they are not as high-and-mighty as they believe.

Stephanie said...

Wow. Nadir Ahmed seems to be having a love affair with himself...if I were an apologist I definitely wouldn't claim that I was the greatest apologist out of all in my group because no one wants to debate me. I think I'd be like, "Uh, why isn't anyone challenging me? Am I really that bad? Maybe I need to change my attitude." Yikes.

Royal Son said...

I personally think he is ashamed of himself and has a lot of internal conflict. I don't think he actually has much self respect. What we see on the outside is a facade. He tries to attack other people because it means he can forget about his own problems.

What I find amazing is how angry and insulting he gets all the while attempting to promote Islam as a religion of peace.

In one debate on paltalk, someone asked him to debate on the prophethood of Mohammed. He said "No I want to talk about violence in the bible" The person said "We've already debated that in the past, let's debate Mohammed" By the way I'm paraphrasing here but Nadir agreed to the topic of Mohammed being a true prophet. First thing he mentions when he gets up on the mic:

"We know that Mohammed is a prophet because he didn't preach the violence that is in the bible"

For 95% of the time, he was debating the subject of violence of the bible vs the peace in Islam instead of the prophethood of Mohammed.

One would think that such an ambassador of the peace of Islam would be friendly, approachable, and sincere.

Is that what we find ?

NO WAY!

Royal Son said...

Oh, and using Nadir's amazing logic, I guess anyone preaching peace is a prophet from God.

And the claim that Mohammed preached peace ? Well I think the informed among us know the response to that. :)

God bless you all.