Monday, April 30, 2012

Where Did Jesus Say, "I Am God, Worship Me"? #2

I was about to post on this subject when David beat me to it. However, I was not planning such a comprehensive post as the one David has provided for us. I just wanted to consider one section - the testimony of Jesus at his trial.
Then the high priest stood up and said to Jesus, "Are you not going to answer? What is this testimony that these men are bringing against you?" But Jesus remained silent. The high priest said to him, "I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God." "Yes, it is as you say," Jesus replied. "But I say to all of you: In the future you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven." Then the high priest tore his clothes and said, "He has spoken blasphemy! Why do we need any more witnesses? Look, now you have heard the blasphemy. What do you think?" "He is worthy of death," they answered. (Matthew 26:62-66, NIV)
In a recent debate I was told that Jesus never said, "I am God worship me". At that time I did not answer with the above verses but now I think I should have. The reason is that in these verses Jesus proclaims his divinity and that all people will worship him.
First Jesus says he is the Christ/Messiah, the Son of God. The prophets before Jesus make it very clear that this Son sits at God's right hand (Psalm 110:1) and how you are to treat this Son.
Kiss the Son, lest he be angry and you be destroyed in your way, for his wrath can flare up in a moment. Blessed are all who take refuge in him. (Psalm 2:12, NIV)
The Jewish leaders understand what Jesus has said and see it as blasphemy.
Then Jesus says he is "the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven." This language is again from the earlier prophets, the prophet Daniel, and is referring to the divine man who will receive the worship of God.
In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed. (Daniel 7:13-14, NIV)
So what is Jesus saying at his trial? What is it that ultimately gets him crucified? It is his claim to be Son of Psalm 2 and 110 who is at the right hand of God and is to be worshipped; it is to be the divine man of Daniel 7 who is to be worshipped. The Jewish leaders again understand exactly what he is saying and call it blasphemy. So Jesus actually does say, "I am God worship me"; he just uses the language of the prophets to say it.
If we want to understand Jesus we must learn his language. I am not saying we must learn Hebrew, Aramaic or Greek, though that is an excellent thing to do. Instead I am saying that we must know the titles, the concepts and expectations of the prophets who were before Jesus, because it is with these words that Jesus speaks and invites us to understand him.

26 comments:

Great-Debater said...

You see, we as Christians can find a number of verses that show Christ as God. But I have spoken to many Muslims and in their mind they don't want a verse that implies this they want the exact words that reads "I am God or worship me". Yet they believe that Jesus was a muslim, I wonder if they can produce a verse in the Bible where Jesus says with his won words"I am a muslim"??

Melvyn R. Cyrus said...

Very interesting post!
Small typo on line 3:
it's "trial" not "trail"

Satish Kumar said...

Muslims apply their own criteria to judge Bible and when it's prove wrong, they say "Bible is Corrupted".

Samuel Green said...

@Melvyn R. Cyrus. Thanks I have made the edit and a few more.

Wren said...

Hi Sam

I'm very interested to know whether you have found this to have actually worked? Or is it more of a thought in progress?

My own impression would be the same as 'Great-Debater', namely, that the average Muslim wants the direct statement, and the inductive reasoning behind your post would simply see them lost.

On a side note I've tended to find answering this objection with 'can you show me where in the Quran the word 'Tawheed' is used?', tends to help them understand the inductive theology of the Trinity, and thus, the deity of Christ. Obviously because it is the same logic used in the formulation of their own theological understanding of Allah.

Bless you mate

Emil Bengtsson said...

Wouldn't Mark 14:62, Luke 22:70 and Mark 6:50 all point to Jesus claiming divinity where he uses I AM (YHWH) to describe himself?

Aqsa_Brigades said...

Soundly refuted:

http://callingchristians.com/2012/05/01/refutation-where-did-jesus-say-i-am-god-worship-me-2/

Samuel, you're making this too easy.

Van Grungy said...

Aqsa_Brigades,

did you just affirm the Bible as being not corrupted?

Samuel Green said...

Wren,

I will have to see how it works. Yes, Muslims may want Jesus to speak in a way that they decide but ultimately we must engage with Jesus the way he chooses. This is a lesson everyone has to learn.

Samuel Green said...

Aqsa_Brigades,

This reply does not engage with what I said nor does it engage with the scriptures. You make a straw man rather than deal with what I said.

I never said the title Son of God automatically means divine. I wrote,

"First Jesus says he is the Christ/Messiah, the Son of God. The prophets before Jesus make it very clear that this Son sits at God's right hand (Psalm 110:1) and how you are to treat this Son."

You do not even deal with what I wrote.

Your quotes about Psalm 2:12 are just wrong. The word "kiss" is in the Hebrew and so is the word "son". Just seach for these words in a search program and you can easily see. http://www.blueletterbible.org/search.cfm#strongs Words 1247, 1248, 1249

The word means "son" or "chosen/pure" Even if you take it to mean "chosen" it is referring to the chosen son of v. 7.

Regarding Daniel 7, you say it the word is serve not worship. Here are the references to the word in Daniel. 3:12, 14, 17, 18, 3:28, 6:16, 20, 7:14, 27. The context for all of these is serving God or gods.

But you miss the point. Who is the only one that all nations will serve for ever? It is God alone. Surely you believe that? Jesus is saying that all nations will serve him forever.

Playing with words the way you do has stopped you from seeing the main point of what is being said.

Aqsa_Brigades said...

@Samuel Green,

I've responded to your comment which you also posted on my blog, see them here:

http://callingchristians.com/2012/05/01/refutation-where-did-jesus-say-i-am-god-worship-me-2/#comment-710

http://callingchristians.com/2012/05/01/refutation-where-did-jesus-say-i-am-god-worship-me-2/#comment-711

I'm unable to post the actual response here because I couldn't get the Greek and Hebrew to show up properly, so I'm using images.

Dawah Refuted said...

@ AQSA

rather than "luring" people to see your website to increase your 'visitor' it would be better to put your thought here.

Btw I would like to know your logic behind your interpretation of OT & the saying of Jesus in NT.

a)Do you really believe 100% that Islamic Jesus p.b.u.h had actually said those sentence you've been interpreting ?

b)Do you really believe those verses in OT that you've been interpreting as the actual Word of God?

c)Since if u perceive those WORDS OF GOD are false how can you believe your interpretation to be what God/ALLAH swt had really wanted to say in the fist place?

Think.. please

Seam_on_Us said...

Glory to God, in Jesus' Perfect Name!

I am always so ecstatic to see the Wisdom Of God laying to waste the pride and wisdom of men. Let them keep up with their flimsy arguments and wasted wisdom. By God's Grace the Name of Jesus Christ will forever prevail.

My thanks to you, Mr Green and to David, for your good work in the Lord.

God Bless.

Great-Debater said...

@ AQSA

Your points are weak and without any real weight. We as Christians know for a surety that Jesus is God in flesh, for it is written ALL OVER the bible. Please refute the following verses....If u can.

a. Rev 1:18
b. Rev 1:8
c.1 Timothy 3:16
d. Isaiah 7:14 (immanuel means God with us)
e. Isaiah 9:6 (Jesus is called the everlasting FATHER)
f. Matthew 28:18
g. Isaiah 44:6

And the list can go on and on. Whether or not Islam accepts it, it is the truth. But please answer this question for me, can you find a single verse in the Bible where Jesus says IN HIS OWN WORDS, I am a Muslim or Allah is my god. Can you find this? If no, then why do you believe that he was?
e.

Aqsa_Brigades said...

@Dawah_NotRefuted,

"rather than "luring" people to see your website to increase your 'visitor' it would be better to put your thought here."

Nothing to do with views, more to do with the Hebrew and Greek being displayed, the source I derived them from can't be pasted as comments, but need to be shown with images. I can't put images in comments here, but I can on my website.

"a)Do you really believe 100% that Islamic Jesus p.b.u.h had actually said those sentence you've been interpreting ?"

The NT is not first person verbatim, so all statements alleged to be Christ's are suspicious to me. Whatever agrees with Islam, I have to agree with, other than that, his statements are up in the air.

"b)Do you really believe those verses in OT that you've been interpreting as the actual Word of God?".

Only those of which agree with Islam.

"c)Since if u perceive those WORDS OF GOD are false how can you believe your interpretation to be what God/ALLAH swt had really wanted to say in the fist place?".

By contrasting those words with authentic Islamic sources, i.e. Qur'an and the Sahih Sitta.

These questions are beyond irrelevant.

Dawah Refuted said...

@Aqsa
==Your comment:The NT is not first person verbatim, so all statements alleged to be Christ's are suspicious to me.Whatever agrees with Islam, I have to agree with, other than that, his statements are up in the air.==

Aqsa why don't u be honest for once & admit what u have been doing here is actually against the teaching of islam itself.

Because what we're dealing with is "The Gospel" then essentially the purpose of interpreting it is to know what God through His ORIGINAL Gospel had really said when it was firstly delivered. So ideally if u claim "your interpretation" as the small part of 'alleged true islamic Gospel' then at least u have to acknowledge this 'small part' as the word of God. Yet, No moslems scholar have authenticated ANY Gospel interpretation as what Allah swt had really said.

Even if u try to throw excuse that it can't be compared with quran for Al-Masih' saying isn't verbatim, STILL if u HONESTLY considered "your interpretation" as part of GENUINE SAYING OF A PROPHET then u&your scholar at least have to authenticate your interpretation as some sort of Sunnah of Prophet. Yet until now no where in the world a single islamic scholar has dared to authenticate any saying of Jesus or/and its interpretation in NT as Sunnah of Isa (a.s).

===My Question :how can you believe your interpretation to be what God/ALLAH swt had really wanted to say in the fist place?Your answer: By contrasting those words with authentic Islamic sources, i.e. Qur'an and the Sahih Sitta===

Can u understand my question at all or is it too hard for your mind to grasp ? my question has absolutely nothing to do with asking u to prove the contrasting concept between two religion! rather I've been asking u to prove in quran or hadiths if ALLAH HAD ACTUALLY EVER DELIVERED THE OT VERSE THAT U'VE INTERPRETED ALONG WITH ITS MEANING(eg. Daniel 7)! Please THINK before giving any answer Aqsa..

So Aqsa as religious person can u be honest for once to admit that islam rejects to authenticate any interpretation of bible as true & hence u don't really believe your own interpretation represents the true saying of Jesus/Isa (a.s)?

It's pitiful to be unintelligent person yet to be dishonest is surely despicable

Dawah Refuted said...

Here's the real example how fanaticism degrades one's mind :
==================
CHRISTIAN: The word yip̄laḥūn spoken by prophet Daniel in Daniel 7:27 means worship

MUSLIM : Wrong, I'm absolutely sure what Prophet Daniel really meant was 'serve' & not worship HOWEVER as muslim I'm also not sure if Prophet Daniel had ever said those word

CHRISTIAN: ????
=============

How can this poor muslim guy expects us to follow his interpretation when he himself doesn't believe his own interpretation to be true ?

Royal Son said...

Dawah_Refuted: It reminds me of a conversation I had with a Muslim on paltalk just yesterday. He claimed that the bible doesn't teach that Jesus was crucified.

I asked him to read Luke 24:44-48.

He responded: Well, we muslims don't believe everything that the bible teaches.

Amazing stuff.

Muslims cannot even show us a single group in history who were the pre-Mohammad Islamic followers of Jesus. Calling Christians/Aqsa Brigades attempted to push the idea that it was the Essenes or the Ebionites in a very poor presentation. He wasn't quite sure which of the two groups it was but it just had to be one of them! :)

Muslims pray five times a day for Allah to guide them on the right path. Unfortunately, it seems that Allah gives very little guidance at all. In fact, according to Surah 3:7, the Qur'an is divided into two categories of verses - Muhkamat (clear and of established meaning), and Mutashabihat (Ambiguous and understood only by Allah). Unfortunately for the Muslims, they're never instructed as to which verses actually comprise the Muhkamat verses (known collectively as the Mother of the book - Umm al kitab in the Arabic). Interestingly, the famous Tafsir Ibn Kathir identified the Mother of the Book as Surat al Fatihah. This identification is likewise made by Imam Bukhari, and I would argue even Mohammad himself by way of inference as he refers to the mother of the Qur'an, which I would argue is synonymous with the mother of the book in surah 3:7 since the Qur'an is the book spoken of in that verse revealed to Mohammad. What does this mean for the Muslims? It means that if the Umm al Kitab (clear verses) are the first chapter of the Qur'an, then you have the remaining 113 chapters of the Qur'an classified as Mutashabihat - ambiguous, understood only by Allah. In essence, this means that the Muslims are following a book that they can not possibly understand except for a grand total of SEVEN VERSES (surat al fatihah)!

Thus, all the debates that Muslims have been having with Christians have taken place where the Muslim has in fact appealed to verses from their qur'an that they cannot possibly understand!

Praise God for 2 Timothy 3:16 - All scripture is GOD BREATHED AND PROFITABLE for teaching for correction, for conviction and for instruction in righteousness!

Interestingly, when I asked Aissa el Ghazi (former admin from the Muslim paltalk room "Answering Christianity" and now current convict) about what exactly does the Qur'an reveal about Allah and about the purpose of life, He said it does not reveal such things. His answer was that it reveals how we should live, what we should do, and what we should not do.

Isn't it amazing? Muslims are left with a book they cannot understand, a God they cannot know, and a purpose in life that is not revealed. They are expected to submit to this unknown God for no apparent reason.

I do not envy their position.

Kappunny said...

No Muslim will accept that “Christ, the son of God” as equal to God for the sake of their argument. Elizabeth calls Mary as mother of “my Lord”. Even they don’t accept that Lord or Messiah means God. If they accept the meaning of the word Lord, Christ or Messiah as God all their arguments will collapse and they are aware of this. To understand the divinity of God one has to understand Jesus was Perfect Man and is perfect God. Those who can understand that Water can be solid liquid and Gas with out any molecular change (at all forms it is two hydrogen and one oxygen) only can understand the divinity and humanity of Jesus. People with a book of so many scientific absurdities can not understand it. Also He is the High Priest (Hebrews 5:6, 10, 6:20, 7:1, 3, 6, Prophet (Mark6:4, Mt13:57, Hebrew 3:3, Acts 7:37, 3:20), Apostle (Hebrews 7:28, 3:1) and King (St. Luke 1:32-33) at the same time. Even the devils have accepted His as Son of God (St. Luke 4:3,9)

Donte Barr said...

These statements are ludacris in nature and dangerous. Jesus was a man, who, as we all are the children (sons and daughters) of Allah. The bible has been translated a numerous amount of times. The Quran was written and published in and around 600 ad and yet the first bible was published in 1382 ad. Yet Christians use this as Gods divine word. How is it that in 1989 the last revisions of the bible have been made? Also how can Jesus be God if Jesus died and God can't die? God doesn't eat nor sleep. Jesus wept ate and slept. Most Christians say, well God had to understand how man felt. God created man and knew all things past present and future about him. God said he is a jealous God, there are no other gods to be worshipped but Him yet Christians pray through Jesus. Jesus also prayed, was he praying to himself. Truley we all serve a God who is not a God of confusion yet Christians read a jewish book through greek goggles and think they know the book. If you love God and follow Jesus why not pray prostrate. Jesus didn't drink. Why do Christians? And those who say the prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is a fraud, the bible speaks of his coming and even shows his lineage. Know your book and love it loudly without ignorance. Also read the Quran if you love Jesus his name is all over it. Surely an unrevised book that was published before the bible and is still in original text has some validity to it.

God bless and hopefully this will begin a discussion that will bring forth truths without confusion.

Great-Debater said...

@ Donte Barr, Jesus Christ IS the living God of Israel not just a man. And this allah u speak of, he is NO god but a demon most likely that fooled mohammed who in turn fooled u and millions of others. You should learn your history friend, the Bible is MUCH older that the koran what is wrong with you? Are u willing to lie just to try to prove your point?

Ishmael said...

Look at what the chapter said, HE WAS GIVEN THE AUTHORITY, AND POWER!! He did not have it at the beginning!! God gave it to him!! Jesus said The FATHER IS THE ONLY TRUE GOD, read ( John 17:3 ) and he said the TRUE WORSHIPPERS, WORSHIP THE FATHER, AND THAT GOD IS A SPIRIT!! READ ( JOHN 4:23 )

Ishmael said...

Jesus never said he is God he said the father is the almighty God!! Jesus said THE FATHER IS THE ONLY TRUE GOD, AND THAT HE GOD SENT HIM, READ ( JOHN 17:3 ) AND JESUS SAID THE TRUE WORSHIPPERS, WORSHIP THE FATHER, AND THAT GOD IS A SPIRIT AND YOU MUST WORSHIP HIM ( IN SPIRIT AND IN TRUTH ) READ (JOHN 4:23,24 )

Great-Debater said...

@Ismael, I am sure that you believe that Jesus was a muslim. Can you produce the verse from the Bible where Jesus himself says, "I am a muslim"? And by the way the Bible screams that Jesus is God in flesh from Genesis to Revelation. And why are you quoting the Bible when in reality you do not believe that it is the word of God? Islam really confuses me, on the one hand you say the Bible is full of lies, yet on the other you use it to try to prove your points. Make up your minds, is the Bible the word of God or not? You all are just as confused as your prophet was, he thought that Mary the sister of Moses was that same Mary the mother of Jesus.... weird..

shopping said...

The very reason Jesus was crucified, was because He called Himself the "Son of God."

Luke 23:2
“We found this man subverting our nation, forbidding us to pay the tribute tax to Caesar and CLAIMING THAT HE HIMSELF IS CHRIST (SON OF GOD)"

shopping said...

Action speaks louder than words.

Jesus' action proves He is God and we have to worship Him.

Once upon a time one third of the angels rebelled against God in Heaven and fell.
Today one third of humans are rebelling against Children of God on earth, they will soon loose .

Jesus never lost nor will loose!