Sunday, April 29, 2012

Violence in the Old Testament

We had a Muslim caller tonight who asked about violence in the Old Testament. Here's a show we did last year on this topic.



Here are two articles as well:

"A Series of Answers to Common Questions"
"Revisiting God's Command to Kill the Amalekites"


Derek Adams said...

Hehe it's funny you post these two videos, I was watching them just before the latest episode(s) of Jesus or Mohammad and was going to link up Shamoun and Zaatari's correspondence too.

While Zaatari has no right to object since his book approves of this and even if it didn't the implications of his Islamic theology that God has the right to take life in anyway he wants would backfire against him.

Kangaroo said...

A God with a deficient personality. Has to kill himself to save others from himself.

David Wood said...

Kangaroo said: "A God with a deficient personality. Has to kill himself to save others from himself."

It's much better to believe in Allah, who can't forgive sins without putting them on the backs of Jews and Christians, and who has no love for anyone except Muslims.

Cranky White Woman said...

@Kangaroo: Actually, God didn't HAVE to kill Himself. He CHOSE to ALLOW Himself to be executed to show His love for His creation...a love that is selfless, that shows us that He would literally die to have a relationship with us. God could have decreed that it's by works we can earn salvation, but he chose love instead. He could have created us with no freewill, forcing us to worship Him. He chose to give us life and the freewill to live it any way we want, but knowing we would blow it, He had a plan of salvation. I worship a God of truth, love and and greatness.

dar alharb said...

As a back up David's comment, see sahih muslim 6665.6666.6668.

Kangaroo said...

Has love for Muslims and non Muslims, but lacks towards those who disbelieve. The Trinity apparently has trouble deciding how justice gets carried out. So the Not So Holy Spirit and Father push the weaker Son out and kill him. Haha! That's justice!!

Or man made? Hmm

Hezekiah Ahaz said...


How does allah distinguish
himself from non-existence?

minoria said...

Part 1

Hello kangaroo:

Violence in the OT is where one sees the contradiction of the Muslim objcetion.

Take Shabir Ally

He contradicts himself here utterly.He would tell me:

"I believe in Moses and some events of him because they are in the Koran and the Koran is true for X reasons."

I have no problem with that,you can believe anything you want.THEN he begins condemning the Moses and Joshua of the OT for their battles,etc.

Utter contradiction

You see the skeptics do this also.First of all Shabir Ally accepts,I assume it,he says he only believes what there is EVIDENCE for, the conclusions of critical scholars:

There is no evidence Moses existed and the violent actions of Moses and Joshua never happened,they were invented to give LEGITIMACY to Jewish possesion of Palestine.

Shabir would reject their assertion that Moses did not exist and there were never any miracles because they are in the Koran,so they have to be true.Moses did cross the sea miraculously,etc.

Why Shabir contradicts himself

Since,except for a few details,he,using his logic,should consider the OT account to be utter inventions like Snow White and Sleeping Beauty,he....

has to accept the ENTIRE account.

He can NOT pick and choose,just like you can NOT pick and choose the parts of Beauty and the Beast you like and reject other parts.

You can't say:"I reject as FALSE,that there was a BEAST,no it was really a GHOST."

Since it is an utter invention,a fiction,a literary work you have to evaluate it in its entirety

minoria said...

Part 2

Ok,Kangaroo,here is what I mean:


All we had was a fictional work where:

1.A group of Germans started killing many Jews

2.Then God began doing great miracles for the Jews.

3.The Germans saw it happen,knew God is God,but they continue killing Jews

4.So God orders a Jewish army to kill them all unless they stop.

5.The Germans don't ask for peace,fight and lose and they are all killed.

Remember it is only fiction,like The Frog Prince or Ben-Hur.Shabir Ally can't say:

"The God of the Jews is evil".First of all it all never happened

and secondly of course the Germans,by defying God whose miracles they knew to be true,only stupidly condemned themselves to death.Since it is fiction you have to evaluate it by accepting all the details are TRUE,true in the sense that they form part of the author's literary work.


You can NOT say:"Well I REJECT that in Don Quixote a man becomes crazy only by reading chivalry books"

Of course it is TRUE,in the sense ALL in a work of fiction is TRUE for that FICTIONAL STORY.

So in the OT the Cananites were practicing child sacrifice for 400 years

And the OT says they knew all about the miracles God did for the Jews in Egypt and the miraculous feeding of them in the desert

Even so they rejected reconciliation with the Jews and with God

So God had an order to eliminate them.

As you can see Shabir's and the skeptics position in this case is stupid,really.He accepts hypercritical rejection of lots of the OT as FALSE (except when they appear in the Koran) yet....

thinks he can condemn what for him is a fairy tale by conveniently being quiet about details of that story that put the whole thing in the different light.

He practices double standards and lack of methodology,he has no methodology in his writings,he picks and chooses,he is no scholar.

minoria said...

Part 3

If Shabir were a really sincere,serious,honest critic of Christianity he would say:

"1.I don't think the Bible is true because critical scholars say the Moses and Joshua stories are false.

2.Except in my case for details that appear in the Koran,the Koran is true for X reason,but that is another debate.

3.Since the Moses and Joshua accounts are FICTION then even as FICTION I won't condemn the fictional God of that story.

In that fictional account the Cananites were horrible people who knew God is God,had time to repent and didn't.

It would be like NAZIS and HITLER knowing God is God yet continuing with the Holocaust.And of course God ordering HITLER and the NAZIS killed would NOT be wrong since they had PROOF God is God."

Now THAT is being CONSISTENT,but Shabir Ally is no scholar,and he is like 70 years old,and old man and stillhas not matured,is still not serious

Check out these articles:

"Why Sufism is Not Pacifist nor for Human Rights,and Famous Sufis"

"Doubts about Allah in the Koran being the Best of Planners and that his Idea of Tricking People is Good"

Cristo Te Ama said...

My God is deficient because he is faithful to his Justice and Values? So if a judge tries to convince someone to leave the thief life he is deficient because he is trying to save that guy from him, since he is the one who will judge him, he would just have to let him go, but wait, what about the Justice he believes in? Another proof that Allah is nothing but a fable, and invention of a 7th century lusty guy who wanted to have power...

Lleychino said...

Is that your real name? Because it suits you well. You are like how Kangaroos behave!

I just had an argument with a muslim, he said that Elisha was resurrected just like Jesus by quoting 2 Kings 13:21.
Hahahaahahahahaha WOW did he even read the story? LOL Muslims Muslims, I feel sorry for you

Cranky White Woman said...

@Kangaroo: God loves everybody, including those who reject the Trinity. He died for every single human being on this planet. Now, THAT is a great love! He will not force a person to believe, and I'm sure it saddens Him that there are folks who will never come to know Him. Your Allah is an imaginary being, inspired by Satan's hatred of humanity. Why else would there be so many commands in your unholy book to slaughter people? The violence in the OT is history, demonstrating what happened, whereas the violence in your unholy book is instructive (ie, slay the idolators wherever you find them). You're lost, and I feel sad about that. Imagine the grief God feels about it! He loves you so very much, but you reject Him for a false god that was invented by an immoral mass-murdering-pedophile-rapist. I think you're curious about the truth, and that's why you frequent this want to be convinced. That gives me hope for your salvation.

Cristo Te Ama said...

@Kangaroo said...
"Has love for Muslims and non Muslims, but lacks towards those who disbelieve"

Does anyone understand this ? lol because it makes no sense at all, at least to me.

"So the Not So Holy Spirit and Father push the weaker Son out and kill him"

Hmm The Son says:

John 10:17 "....I lay down my life —only to take it up again. 18 No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again"

So Kangaroo plz stop making us laugh with your (non) understanding of the Bible.

And about man made, you should ask the guy who wrote the quran, when Muhammad used to tell him something and he changed the words to another ones, so much for a perfect preserved and eternal word of God.

Walter said...

The most important thing to remember when talking with Muslims about the OT is the Muslim accounts of those events turn all prophets into sinless, perfect men. This creates a default rejection because they read the Biblical accounts, and they contain Abraham, Moses, David, Solomon, Jonah, Jeremiah, et al messing up and sinning against God!

This is why Muhammad has been retroactively turned into the paragon of virtue by constructing a morality around his life.

Lleychino said...

@Kangaroo said...
"Has love for Muslims and non Muslims, but lacks towards those who disbelieve"

Hello Kangaroo, do you even know what you are saying?

Lacks what??? LOVE? Then you are refuting yourself LOL...

You remind me of Proverbs 26:16 that says, "The sluggard is wiser in his own conceit than seven men that can render a reason."

aaron said...

hey Kangaroo
" Haha! That's justice!! " your one pushes on jews and christians so " Haha! That's justice!!" back at you rofl. Also Choose to give up his own, no one pushed him into it. love how you are shooting your own leg in your argument

crujjy said...

I don't know why, but for some reason Sam Shamoun reminds me of Messianic Judaism. He clearly isn't(calls Him Jesus instead of Yeshua) but yeah, he reminds me of one for some reason.

trust_christ said...

Please go to Rob Skiba web site and review his discussion of corruption in human blood line by angels. This argument explains the Old testament Flood and violence.

trust_christ said...

Please go to Rob Skiba's web site or blog Revolutionary radio and review his lectures on tainted human blood lines with Angels. He discusses why Lucifer chose to corrupt human being to prevent the Messiah's birth. This is new perspective on a subject that few bible scholars want to except, even though it is the only real explanation that makes sense and will dispute any muslim or atheist. God bless you Sam and David

trust_christ said...

Please review his lectures and you will know why violence existed in the old testament

Rag said...

A God with a deficient personality. Has to kill himself to save others from himself.

I ain't no muzzy...but he has a does not make any sense for an all powerful god who sits in judgment of others and has no rivals to kill himself and pardon others from his own is nothing more than the height of madness.

He CHOSE to ALLOW Himself to be executed to show His love for His creation...a love that is selfless, that shows us that He would literally die to have a relationship with us.

All this sounds really good at an emotional level, but when we think a little bit rationally that we are talking about an all powerful god, then it sounds clearly ridiculous.

An all powerful can forgive by his mere will and has no need to exhibit his love by killing himself. Since god is the judge and sole entity in charge of forgiving, only he needs to be convinced. To suggest that this god killed himself in order to convince himself for forgiving others is ascribing insanity to him.

He does not need to show his love by sacrificing himself. By his mere will he can make everybody understand (not forcing but by giving knowledge of the same) how much god loves everybody. He can directly create that knowledge in every living entity. All this drama about sacrificing himself is unnecessary.

All religions that believe in creation-ex-nihilo in some way are illogical as the locus of faults in his creation will finally converge in the creator ultimately and hence are false.

0oBonesawo0 said...

May the Lord, our creator guide us all and be merciful on the day of judgement.
Those whom Allah guides will never be misguided but those to whom Allah does NOT give guidance will NEVER find the straight path.
I enjoyed Christianity...until I witnessed the Miracles, laying on hands, speaking in tongues, running laps around the church and so on...but the whole trinity....Jesus is a baby, oh now he's a 33 yr old carpenter... the dove at the baptism...never quite made sense.
Meh, To you be your religion and to me be mine...
Fi Aman Allah