Monday, September 9, 2013

Did Jesus die for the sins of the world?

Thanks Faraz for the debate.

32 comments:

Ugas said...

thanks Samuel for posting this debate.

for sake of arguments suppose Jesus died on the cross two thousand years ago, then WHO died on the cross???
Jesus of Man or Jesus of God??

if you say Man, then how many men or even righteous Prophets died or killed before him.
if you say God died on the cross, then that Means God him self committed suicide and failed to protect his 'Son'.

sla said...

Samuel , i respect u but at the same time i should say your points on the history of the Bible and the Quran are just too naive .Neither are they academic nor are they any way near it .The only person whom u quoted on the history of the Bible is Lee Strobel ! and no scholar was quoted on history of the Quran !

akairey said...

I'm still learning about Islam's false claims about the BIBLE. But does the quran NOT say for the people of the book (Jews) to follow their book and the Christians to the gospel for they are from "allah"? 2nd, does not muhammed say the bible is true during his time 632 A.D.? If that's the case, why do muslims now say the bible is NOT true when Muhammed believed it was so in his day?

akairey said...

now for the quran: the validity of it being true since inception has been proving TIME and TIME again by islamic source and Mr. Wood has perfectly provide the proof:
http://www.answeringmuslims.com/p/quran.html

akairey said...

Though Faraz was very clearly spoken and articulate...he still has a LOT to learn of the errors in the quran!

Samuel Green said...

@sla

"your points on the history of the Bible and the Quran are just too naive .Neither are they academic nor are they any way near it."

Thanks. Can you please explain where my points are in error and naive? My aim is to give a 5 minute summary in the debate. I explain the methodology of textual criticism with diagrams rather than quotes.

Samuel Green said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Samuel Green said...

@sla

"and no scholar was quoted on history of the Quran !"

Yes, I did!

A palimpsest is a parchment with at least two layers of text. The older layer is scraped off or washed to make room for the new text, but over time it resurfaces as a shadow, in this case as a pale brown text. (Behnam Sadeghi and Uwe Bergmann, "The Codex of a Companion of the Prophet and the Qur?an of the Prophet", Arabica 57, 2010, p. 348)

The main significance of the San'a 1 (Standford 07) manuscript is that its lower text does not belong to this Utmanic textual tradition. In this sense, it is “non-Utmanic.” It belongs to some other textual tradition which is designated here as C-1. (Behnam Sadeghi and Uwe Bergmann, p. 344)

wilson blaise said...

Urgas asked:how many prophets or righteous killedor died before Jesus? answer this question first before your question can be answered sir. "How many prophets or righteous men died or killed for the sins of mankind before Jesus,?do you know of any sir?

As for your second question you are either misinformed or willfully misrepresent our belief sir. Christians never claim that God committed suicide.

Tom said...

When this muslim said that the sacrifice in the Old Testament resulted in the animal being set free, you should have put all other irrelevant distractions aside and BURIED him on a Very crucial & foundational point in our Theology, should have Preached it!

And to the question, are you saved when you declare Jesus as your Saviour on your death bed, YES!
Its not based On your rigtheousness But On HIS Righteousness, Preach it Pastor, Preach it!
Great example,(From, "Let us reason ministries"):
"Jesus said to the thief on the cross who repented "Today (Present tense) you will be with me in paradise"(Luke 23:43). This thief was neither baptized nor partook of the Lords supper he believed and was promised to be with Jesus.
He did no works but only believed!

From the beginning, Our Doctrine is, God The Son came Down to die for our sins & Rose on the 3rd day and He will come again!
His Grace is NOT contagion on our Works, as this muslim is claiming!!
If it were so, than, "What is Grace, "UNDESERVED,UNMERITED FAVOUR"!
This muslims says there is "big" changes over the centuries, PLSE What are the Huge changes that took place in terms of Doctorine?

muslim never provide an answer,
"Where is this Injel of Jesus Christ"? How do you know there is such an injel, does the koran provide details or clarification on this matter?
WHY muhammad AND allah werent aware the injel of Jesus is lost???

Excuse me brother Samuel, on my "debating prowess" based on hindsight!
Shalom.

hugh watt said...

Ugas

You need to understand what the Bible says in regards to Christ's nature.

The mistake many make is to not see that Messiah would have a dual nature, fully God and fully Man.

To undo the damage which was done in Eden by Man only a sinless Man could reverse the curse. Since it was not God nor an angel who lost Paradise it would take another sinless Man to do that work.

Christ acted in that legal role as a sinless human being to redeem fallen Man. God took personal responsibility upon Himself rather than make other sinless persons.

Why could it could not just have been any "righteous" person dying for our sins? Well, Adam & Eve were not sinners to start with so God's starting point would be the same another sinless Person, and He would go through the same temptations Satan put to Adam & Eve only this time Christ did not fall for Satan's lies.

Samuel Green said...

@Tom

Thanks Tom. Yes, I should preach it more :-) but time is short in a debate and you have to decide between answering more of the points raised and how much to make of one point.

Samuel Green said...

@Ugas

It is Jesus the divine Son. The Son willingly obeyed the Father and became a man and lived a fully human life.

Heb 2:14 Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might destroy him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil—

Tom said...

@Ugas

Just like this muslim debater tried to do, using his finite ability to 'rationalise' a Infinite God, "You will fail"!!

Estudantes Mocambicanos na Argelia said...

Faraz spent his whole debate trying to rise the idea that none cares someone ele's sins forgetting the Sahih Muslim Hadith 6665-6668 that states, that Jews and christians willl care mulims sins, and what comes to the corruption of the Bible, I guess you should forget that point guys, because they keep using "confirmation bias"! And why he keep quoting from it if he believes that is corrupted?

Ugas said...

@ hugh watt

What do you mean by this expression
"Jesus was fully God and fully Man"

that means when he was in the toilet he was fully God and fully Man.

is that makes any sense? !!!

hugh watt said...

1-

Ugas

I know this may seem confusing but it's been pointed out, you can't use human logic to fully understand the Divine. The best I can do is try to explain in terms people can relate to as God has given us a brain to use.

If God chooses to appear in the form of an Angel, Man or burning bush is He able to do so?

You have two choices here:

#1 If you say He is not able to take another form you limit the Almighty.

#2 If He is able to take the form of one of His creatures why can't that form be as an Angel or a Man?

As a Muslim you believe Muhammad to be the perfect human being yet Muhammad "was in the toilet" on many occasions so it shouldn't be a problem for you to accept a "perfect" man needs the toilet. So if God took the form of a perfect Man why would it be a problem for you if He, in His humanity, "was in the toilet?"

I've more questions you. Firstly, I'd like to thank some of the contributors here for their insight and effort in studying this vast topic. For now I shall use materials Anthony Rogers posted as a reference to this matter.

hugh watt said...

2-

Ugas, if you have a problem with God taking the form of Man consider this.

Narrated 'Ata' bin Yazid Al-Laithi: On the authority of Abu Huraira: The people said, "O Allah's Apostle! Shall we SEE our Lord on the Day of Resurrection?" The Prophet said, "Do you have any difficulty in seeing the moon on a full moon night?" They said, "No, O Allah's Apostle." He said, "Do you have any difficulty in seeing the sun when there are no clouds?" They said, "No, O Allah's Apostle." He said, "So you will SEE Him, like that. Allah will gather all the people on the Day of Resurrection, and say, 'Whoever worshipped something (in the world) should follow (that thing),' so, whoever worshipped the sun will follow the sun, and whoever worshiped the moon will follow the moon, and whoever used to worship certain (other false) deities, he will follow those deities. And there will remain only this nation with its good people (or its hypocrites). (The sub-narrator, Ibrahim is in doubt.) Allah will come to them and say, 'I am your Lord.' They will (deny Him and) say, 'We will stay here till our Lord comes, for when our Lord comes, we will recognize Him.' So Allah will come to them in His APPEARANCE which they know, and will say, 'I am your Lord.' They will say, 'You are our Lord,' so they will follow Him.- Bukhari
009.093.532c

Why is Allah referred to as "Him?"
What does a "Him" look like?

hugh watt said...

3-3

One more for now.

Several Koran's translate Sura 68:42 as follows:

Pickthall: On the day when it befalleth in earnest, and they are ordered to prostrate themselves but are not able,

Yusuf Ali: The Day that the shin shall be laid bare, and they shall be summoned to bow in adoration, but they shall not be able,-

Shakir: On the day when there shall be a severe affliction, and they shall be called upon to make obeisance, but they shall not be able,

Muhammad Sarwar: On the day when the terrible torment approaches, they will be told (in a mocking way) to prostrate themselves, but they will not be able to do it.

Mohsin Khan: (Remember) the Day when the Shin shall be laid bare (i.e. the Day of Resurrection) and they shall be called to prostrate (to Allah), but they (hypocrites) shall not be able to do so,

Sahih International: The Day the shin will be uncovered and they are invited to prostration but the disbelievers will not be able,

What do you understand by the meaning of "shin?"

Rukiah Ali said...

You should silly you people sound. The Bible has been changed 70 times, you don't care you will be lost all your life. Even when the truth is revealed.

Daniel Michael said...

Samuel,

My comment is not related to the original post, but I would like you to read the link below, which talks about the idea of original sin and its flaws.

http://lavistachurchofchrist.org/LVanswers/2010/04-30a.html

I'm a Christian and I feel it is necessary for me to at least point a brother in Christ in the right direction. If you don't agree with what's written, I would like to know why.

aaron said...

@ rukiah

seriously you are just a troll now. the topic was "did jesus die for the sin of the world" and we are seeing you go off topic again. this is deliberate internet trolling

and once again accusations without any evidence. btw why are you still running from my question of why did uthman had a burning party to edit the quran? i have already cited haddiths from sahih bukhari. so keep running

Tom said...

@ rukiah
"....The Bible has been changed 70 times..."

In the free world, when you make an assertion decent person will provide the necessary evidence!

So since you are able to place a number 70, there is documentation of those changes that will dramatically alter the Christian Doctrine which is :
" The Son of God, The Saviour, The Messiah, Who was Cruscified, came down to TAKE away the sins of the world & and On the 3rd Day He Rose up, and IS sitting at the Right hand of The Father, who will come again".

So, What is early Church Doctrine, What was the Doctrine during the time of mo & What is the present day Doctrine?

Since there are 70 changes, from the start to the middle and to present day,there Must be a STARK difference in DOCTRINE!

And Yes, usual muslim perversion, change the subject matter!

Foolster41 said...

You are such a coward Rukiah. You repeated this same assertion 6 minutes before in another thread where you had already made this assertion, ignoring my request for proof to back it up. Then you post the same thing in another thread? What a coward!

Ugas said...

@ hugh watt

God can do any thing and what does not fit his nature, he can not do.
so what does not fit God to do is to be in the form of Man.

is God has an image?

the answer is NO, open the Book of exados 9:14 " I will never punish ay body for any body else sin, but remember there is no one like unto me God in the heavens and in the earth".

Jesus was like unto me as a Human but he was not like unto God.

So, the Exados 9:14 tell us there is no Original sin, and no one will die for any body's sin. also tell us there is no one like unto God.

Ugas said...

@ hugh wat

YES the prophet told us that we will see the face of God in the day of Judgement, as a part of our reward in the paradise.

The Koran clearly pointing that in the sura 76: 22-23.
in the day of judgment God will Recreate us in a form that we will able to see the face of God if we are Believers, but in this world No one can see the face of God.

RMuhammad said...

@ Tom

You wrote, ""Jesus said to the thief on the cross who repented "Today (Present tense) you will be with me in paradise"(Luke 23:43). This thief was neither baptized nor partook of the Lords supper he believed and was promised to be with Jesus."

I'm not sure if you realize what you are saying. What is baptism according to the Bible?

Romans 6:3-4 "Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life."

You try to make a point of the thief on the cross not being baptized. Of course he wasn't - Jesus was still alive! How can he be baptized into the DEATH of Jesus when Jesus was still alive? Where do you see the first instance of baptism and salvation? While Jesus was alive? No. Only after his resurrection. And where was that? Acts 2, specifically verse 38. This is how people were added to the church. If you have a problem with baptism, and call it a work, take it up with Peter and Paul.

hugh watt said...

Ugas

When you reference a Bible Text it would help if you quoted one that's in the Bible and address what it actually means, not what you want it to mean. You posted neither Text nor its meaning: '"Book of exados 9:14 "I will never punish ay body for any body else sin, but remember there is no one like unto me God in the heavens and in the earth"'.

I asked a question to which you replied: "God can do any thing and what does not fit his nature, he can not do. so what does not fit God to do is to be in the form of Man."

I agree God can not do what does not fit His nature. What I asked was not to do with His nature but His abilities.

Al-Qādir: S:46.33 Do they not see that Allah, Who created the heavens and the earth, and was not wearied by their creation, is Able to give life to the dead? Yes, He surely is Able to do all things.

Al-ʿAzīz: S:4.158 But Allah raised him ['Iesa (Jesus)] up (with his body and soul) unto Himself (and he is in the heavens). And Allah is Ever All-Powerful, All-Wise.

You further confuse with: "is God has an image? the answer is NO,."

But then say: "YES the prophet told us that we will see the face of God in the day of Judgement, as a part of our reward in the paradise.

The Koran clearly pointing that in the sura 76: 22-23. in the day of judgment God will Recreate us in a form that we will able to see the face of God if we are Believers, but in this world No one can see the face of God."

If God did not give us an idea of what a face looks like how could we know what a face is?

What does a shin look like? Not only did you not answer this, you also have not answered why Allah has a gender, "Him?"

rs roudh said...

How can Fraraz’s Allah be MOST MERCIFUL when he is going to inflict unthinkable tortures for billions of years on those who refused to accept Muhammad. This penalty is insane even if the evidence for Islam was undeniable, which is in fact far from being the case. Would it not be more merciful to put disbelievers into non-existence? What is the fate of those who reject Christ?

hugh watt said...

rs

The fate of those who reject the only way of forgiveness is God's endless wrath for eternity. Non-existence may be your preferred option but it's not one God gives to us.

http://www.geniusthemovie.com/

Tom said...

@RMuhammad wrote:
"I'm not sure if you realize what you are saying. What is baptism according to the Bible?"

I am not sure you understand the question: "....are you saved when you declare Jesus as your Saviour on your death bed,.."
The incident at the cross shows the Grace & Love of our Lord Jesus Christ. Jesus did not at that point give the thief a sermon on repentance,"wait you need to be baptised" etc..Its Grace at work, at that instance!

Baptism was taking place during the live of Christ, He was baptised!
John 3:22 “After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.”

John 10: 26 "But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. 27"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.…"
And at the cross Jesus Knows His sheep, again it proofs that He is God The Son!
I know it is frustrating for the muslim to see this because they need to practise daily cleansing(pseudo-baptism) & yet have no assurance of Salvation!

Steve Finnell said...

THE THIEF'S PLAN OF SALVATION

Can men living in the 21st century steal the thief's plan of salvation and be saved? No they cannot. The thief was the one and only person saved by his plan.

What did the thief do to be saved?

1. The thief obviously believed that Jesus was the Christ.(Luke 23:39)
2. The thief feared God.(Luke 23:40)
3. The thief asked Jesus to remember him when He came into His kingdom.(Like 23:42)

THAT WAS THE THIEF'S PLAN OF SALVATION! Yes he was saved (Luke 23:43)

What was not in the thief's plan of salvation?
1. The thief did not believe in his heart that Jesus was raised from the dead by God the Father.(Romans 10:9 that if you confess with they mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead , you will be saved;) The thief could not believe that God raised Jesus from the dead; because Jesus was sill alive when the he was saved.

2. The thief was not baptized for the forgiveness of sins. (Acts 2:38)

3. The thief could not be baptized in water in order to be saved. (Mark 16:16, 1 Peter 3:21)

THE THIEF DIED UNDER THE OLD COVENANT AND GOT A DIRECT PARDON FROM JESUS. Men living today can only be save by the terms of pardon under the New Covenant.
The terms of pardon are: FAITH John 3:16---REPENTANCE Acts 2:38---CONFESSION Romans 10:9-10---WATER BAPTISM Acts 2:38, 1 Peter 3:21, Mark 16:16.


PEOPLE OF THE 21 CENTURY CANNOT STEAL THE THIEF'S PLAN OF SALVATION AND BE SAVED!

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