(CBSNews) On Friday, Feb. 11, the day Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak stepped down, CBS chief foreign correspondent Lara Logan was covering the jubilation in Tahrir Square for a "60 Minutes" story when she and her team and their security were surrounded by a dangerous element amidst the celebration. It was a mob of more than 200 people whipped into frenzy.In the crush of the mob, she was separated from her crew. She was surrounded and suffered a brutal and sustained sexual assault and beating before being saved by a group of women and an estimated 20 Egyptian soldiers. She reconnected with the CBS team, returned to her hotel and returned to the United States on the first flight the next morning. She is currently in the hospital recovering. (Source)
96 comments:
Are you surprised? Since she as a non-muslim was a dhimmi slave girl in Egypt, the following Quranic instructions applied to her, which led her to getting gang-raped: Quran 33:50, 4:24, 4:34, 23-5:6, 2:223. These are only three. I can cite lot more. Plus Muhammed and his followers raped lot more after each wars.
Not to mention that 140 foreign journalists have been killed or injured in Egypt since the whole thing started. Yet, the mainstream media says NOTHING about it. I guess if the world sees the truth behind Islam & the Muslim Brotherhood supporters, the liberal portrayal of noble freedom fighters goes out the window! Sad
Tony - Hazakim
This poor woman. I am so sorry. I shall pray for her healing she needs every bit of help she can get. What a terrible thing, Islam is showing it's true face to the west. There is too much going on to hide it now.
Welcome PYEM Ministry:
I have read your blog,good articles.You are very brave to show yur picture,just like Antoine Martin.I hide behind a false name.
I had never heard of Lara Logan before,I hardly watch TV,it is so boring.But I was shocked,like everybody else.I never thought smething like that would happen but it confirms the lower esteem women are held in a Muslim culture.
I knwo it could have happened in say,Brazil,but the difference is enormous.In Brazil women aren't considered "Bad" is they dont wear a hijab.
In Brazil she can dress as she likes and nobody cares,in Egypt it is different.
May God heal her emotional and physical wounds. No surprise and it happened just as allah commands to terrorize and allows rape/ adultery with slave girls. Lara must have fallen under slave category. How long O Dear God your people would suffer these demon possessed people? minoria please show some human concern for Lara even if islam doesnt condemn such act.
The people who got killed in the revolution wasn't from the Egyptians. They were people paid by the government at that time. This is all over now.
There was no rape cases reported, and this case the first to see (and it doesn't say rape).
Pray for Egypt and its safety. It is critical time for it now.
To PYEM Ministry.
aside from the monstruous event that occured to Lara Logan and setting this event aside although sending her my daily prayers for her fast recovery both psychologically and physically
i would want PYEM Ministry to elaborate on his understanding of the surras he mentioned with all due regards to what i am going to elaborate hereunder:
during the crusades, the inquisitions, the medieval ages etc... us christians used the bible as a mean to interpret what we wanted to happen by explaining the different verses in it the way we see or want things, using our priests back then or our bishops to declare them or interpret them as the words of Jesus or his apostles thus the followers would believe that a crusade was indeed tolerated by the bible itself, or that the inquisition had indeed the blessing and the protection of Jesus himself... so imagine your coments back then when a crusader would be called to battle to defeat the infidels and encouraged by his own pope to rape,kill and desecrate the muslims and promissing him the spiritual benefit of having all your sins forgiven by God, similar to the MAN made promisses later on made by several muslim mouftis promissing(72 virgins and 80000 slaves).. but did the bible mention that ? no.. did the coran mention that !? no ..
now the issue remains that please whether christians wanting to comment on the coran or the muslims wanting to comment on Jesus or the bible, do read both books and read them once again, you have to focus while reading them, these are not harry potter novels, these are very meticoulously made books whether by mortals or by God himself, they are very specific and very detailed and thus need a lot of attention before quoting them stupidely (no offense), what you have quoted might seem at first glance if read like that as a direct accusation to the islamic faith but if read thouroughly and from top to bottom will began to make sense and look logical to the average reader....
again to remind the ones who dont know, unlike us Muslims dont rely only on the coran, they have the hadith also (hadith in arabic means conversation or talk) which is what the others heard of t he prophet talk and then documented it in books, similar to the writings of our own disciples who heard what Jesus talked and wrote.
and thus it remains that they are humans writing their perspective and personal understanding of what they heard the prophet Muhammad or the son of God Jesus talk ... be objective people and dont underestimate or condescend other's religions just because u think youre better or your religion is better ..
Coptic Christian: first of all, the term "sexual assault" is now very popular among today's politically correct media.
Secondly, please read David's original article again one more time but this time around please pay a little bit more attention and then come back here and tell me what "sustained sexual assault" means and how it would feel like to you if someone assaulted you for a "sustained" period of time. Thanks and one more thing before I move on to the next commenter, let me tell you that if you think the muslims love/respect/honor/care for you, you are gravely wrong. Muslim's love is merely an outward deception but inside lies hatred, cruelty, anger and violence. You only have to read Muhammed's own life history to understand what I mean.
Now I don't mean to say that all muslims are bad/terrorists, but any and all muslim who follow the Quran, authentic hadiths and Muhammed's examples (sunnahs) are 100 percent certified terrorists. But with that said, we can't trust moderate muslims either as we don't know whether they are lying to us or not (since lying is allowed in Islam)
So either way, islam and its followers are doomed if its followers choose to follow their books.
Why am I saying all this to you? Because my brother in Christ....do you know how many women Muhammed raped after completion of each holy wars? Do you know how many wives he married? Do you know that he couldn't prevent himself from lusting over a 6 year old girl? do you know he sexually molested that child and raped her when she reached the age of 9?
He didn't even stop at raping kids, but also instructed and encouraged his followers to look for underaged young girls while looking for a bride.
I can keep quoting the hadiths and surahs one by one if you want proofs. Just ask and you shall receive.
Now back to the question: why am I saying all these to you? Ans: it's because of only one reason: You don't believe that she was raped. You believe that she was sexually assaulted.
My question to you is: WHAT'S THE DIFFERENCE? If god forbid I sexually assualt your mother for a "sustained" period of time and then a group of women and 20 egyptian soldiers have to come and rescue her and then she has to spend days in the hospital, how would that feel to you and your mother?
let me ask you again one more time politely: did you even read the article? There is a difference between reading and reciting.
Last but not the least: if you think Lora was not a dhimmi in a muslim country subject to murder, rape, humiliation and subjugation, then you are not qualified to comment on this site. I suggest that you read the Quran and hadith and then come back.
Please don't be offended by my comments though. I am not a scholar or anything like that. I'm merely an observer.
God bless you
Part 1
Mr. Jad
First of all...I didn't write my own commentary of the verses I mentioned. Please go to altafsir.com and read Ibn Abbas's commentary on these verses all by yourself. As a matter of fact, read Muhammed's own sirah literature and reconcile his life style and deeds with these verses. If you do, you wouldn't need an interpreter/interpretation.
Now let's come to Crusades.
I don't agree with the entire part of the Crusade. I believe and know that part of it was done as a response to muslims' invasion of Europe and for self-defense (which is totally okay...i mean you don't expect me to sit down and lick my thumb while i see you rape my mother in my own house, do you???)
but some part of it was crime and i totally disagree with that as it was totally unbiblical and opposite of what Christ taught. I would love to personally and publicly apologize to victims of that part of the crusade any day.
With all that said, let me teach you something very important.
1) I don't need to rely on someone named "Pope" or visit his so-called vatican city to be granted Salvation. Please read the Bible and tell your pope to read and encourage his followers to read it too.
2) I don't need to believe on anyone except Jesus Christ, the God, son of God and 100 percent man, to be granted eternal life. I am 100 percent sure about that because I have read the bible and in john 3:16 John was not referring to a pope but Jesus. So, believing in a pope wouldn't save me, nor doing a good or bad work. so yeah, those popes of that time might have been able to falsify the core doctrines of Christianity and conveniently mis-interpret and distort verses of the bible to make their argument, but if those who listened to him actually read the bible, they wouldn't have done what the pope told them to do.
Part 2
Coincidentally, I was reading some quotes made by Pope Urbun II few minutes before you posted your comment, and I found some horrible claims in it
One, for example, is like he is telling his followers to go join the war and die. and if they die, they will immediately go to heaven.
The problem is: Those who actually believed in what the pope said never cared to read the bible in the first place. they blindly followed the church doctrine, not the bible.
" that the inquisition had indeed the blessing and the protection of Jesus himself" << The protection of Jesus himself can be obtained not by good works, bad works, crusades, holy pilgrimage or going to the church every sunday and saluting three hail marys but by completely and unconditionally putting your faith in Christ and Christ alone. there is no other way around it. anyone who tells you otherwise is a liar. And bible is very clear about it.
So therefore, your complains about what pope did and what his followers did has got nothing to do with what the word of God teaches me. Please try harder a bit next time. For your information, I follow and believe in god, and the word of God, which is God. Where the pope come from I have no clue. I'm sorry but he means nothing to me. He is neither holy nor has the power to forgive people's sins. He is a man who sinned. If he thinks otherwise then it's his business, not mine. I don't stone pornographers to death because they commit sin. God will deal with them and i'm not supposed to condemn them.
Part three (final)
You in your comment didn't quote a single verse of the bible that you think the pope in question "misinterpreted"
There is a huge difference between interpreting and misinterpreting.
When I quote Quran 33:50, 4:24, 4:34, 23-5:6, 2:223, and then go to Ibn Abba's tafsirs (muhammed's cousin), match them with authentic hadith and then finally look at muhammed's biography to come to the conclusion that islam approves rape, murder, torture and global oppression, I'm not MISINTERPRETING. Rather I'm adding all these elements together to paint a picture of the true Islam, the islam Muhammed wanted his followers to practice, not the Islam of lesbian fake false Muslim Irshad Manji (what a joke lol).
But I challenge you...bring a verse from the bible where Jesus or any apostle of him said the pope can forgive someone's sins...or that if someone joins a crusade and kills muslims, he will be granted eternal life and failing to abide by pope's order will cause him to burn in hell for eternity.
John 3:16
God bless you.
P.S. If it was me who wrote the comment that you wrote, I wouldn't call myself a bible-believing Christian. peace
This is very sad and there is absolutely no justification for such a vile and henieus act but I do hope this will open her eyes to the plight of the Christian monority in Egypt and of other Christians throughout the Muslim world.
Jad said,
"...similar to the MAN made promisses later on made by several muslim mouftis promissing(72 virgins and 80000 slaves).. but did the bible mention that ? no.. did the coran mention that !? no "
I have to disagree at the last bit...
David has posted more than once that it is, indeed, promised by Allah and Muhammad in the Quran.
You can refer to this one.
http://www.answeringmuslims.com/2010/10/abcs-islam-deception-did-muhammad.html
Thanks Zack, I was so occupied with Pope and Crusade that I forgot about his accusation that the promise of 72 virgins were man-made. lol. but wasn't it 300 young boys who never bleed and not 80,000 boys? lol either way, I'm not gay so I don't wanna comment about boys but 72 girls will be there and I know that for sure lol
Can someone deny the Bible and still claim to be a Christian?
Can someone say "Do this and you will be saved and go to heaven. Jesus's teachings don't matter. His crucifixion was in vein. I'm Pope so follow me" and still claim to be a Christian?
Can someone violate the ten commandments and show total disrespect to Jesus's teachings and still claim to be a Christian?
These are only a few questions for Jad. But he seriously needs a bible class in a baptist church
"Nir Rosen, U.S. journalist trashes CBS' Lara Logan on Twitter after sexual assault in Egypt."
http://nydn.us/ibdnZs
Sick mind.. he thinks its funny
PYEM MINISTRY has a point that often those who commited atrocities in the name of Jesus had never,ever even read the Gospels in their entire lives.
The worst massacre of Jews by Christians in the Middle Ages was in 1399 in Spain.
50,000 Jews were killed in Spain,33% of the entire Jewish population,another 50,000 accepted baptism to avoid being killed.
In those days there no translations of the Bible into Spanish,Portuguese,Catalan,Italian,etc.Everything was in Latin.
Except for Wycliff's translation of the Bible into English,which was not approved.
Also most people were illiterate,but all the same you had to learn Latin to read the Bible.
Matthew 16:18 “I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.
Ibn Abbas's commentary on these verses all by yourself<--- You see my dear sir you didnt read what i told you. again do not rely on Hadith read only the koran and read it in arabic if you know the language and dont rely on anyone to translate or explain it to you.
I don't need to rely on someone named "Pope" or visit his so-called vatican city to be granted Salvation... <--- i agree with that. i never claimed to follow anyone and surely not the pope with all due respect to him and to the ones who do follow him.
I have read the bible and in john 3:16 John was not referring to a pope but Jesus. So, believing in a pope wouldn't save me, nor doing a good or bad work.<---- while i do agree also but still if you are a true follower of the bible then my dear sir you cant ignore (Matthew 16:18)
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it
thus if a true christian and a believer in the bible and though i am against the theory but nevertheless its whats written you have to follow the church.
Those who actually believed in what the pope said never cared to read the bible in the first place. they blindly followed the church doctrine, not the bible.<---- very well said thats exactly my point in regards to the islamic faith.. if the muslims who were followers of radicalism or followers of the jihadist thoughts were to read the Koran themselves they would not find one word about 72 virgins or other than that. and they would not desecrate or humiliate or touch christians or jews like in (Surah ElMa2idah:82 , AlAnkabout:46 etc... )
So therefore, your complains about what pope did and what his followers did has got nothing to do with what the word of God teaches me<---- again instead of taking the defensive side try to read a bit carefully what i said ... i said that Christians used the word of the Bible to interpret their misbehaviours as authentic and allowed, and even the highest authority in the christian world allowed it ... nowadays the same thing is happening with the muslims.. they are covering their misbehaviour with misinterpretations from the Koran and justifying it with some words from the Hadith ... so what i said was before judging the whole religion, condemn only the ones who are misinterpreting it, whether christians or muslims .. cse neither the bible allowed the atrocities of the crusades nor did the koran allow the rapings of women in war or during an egyptian protest :).
You in your comment didn't quote a single verse of the bible that you think the pope in question "misinterpreted"<---- well cse i wasnt living back when then my dear sir, but when he called for a crusade he called it to save the land of the lord and christianity all around and when they told him that christians dont wage war but make peace he answered them with his own explanation of some of the verses of the bible like Luke22:36...
bring a verse from the bible where Jesus or any apostle of him said the pope can forgive someone's sins...or that if someone joins a crusade and kills muslims, he will be granted eternal life and failing to abide by pope's order will cause him to burn in hell for eternity.<----- heheh i challenge you bring one surrah in the koran that forces the muslims to follow the word of a mufti even if it is contrary to the koran himself... its the same my friend .. the followers of both religions have desecrated both of them but that doenst mean that the religion is false...
bible-believing Christian<---- i didnt say i was i only said i was christian, by birth my friend..
ill sum it up both books are extremely profound and important. the bible is a book of an utopic ideology in which everyone should strive to achieve but can not run our daily life upon it.. its like the bible deals with spirituality more than it deals with logic and daily life. while the koran is a daily life book, it deals with problems arising from what to consider a fetus if hes still in a womb, is he complete, is he a human does he inherit etc.. to matters of menstruation, sex, personal hygiene, marriage, causes of annulement (insanity, leprosy, blocked vagina, emasculation etc..) things the bible never mentioned and are in nowadays causes for extreme conflicts between fellow christians (i know, im a lawyer)
Quran 33:50<--- read the 49 before judging it .. he could exceed the number 4 because he had not touched one of them.. so he can give her her a gracious release and her dues and take upon another woman since he did not consume his marriage with her ..
Quran 4:24<-- gain readd carefully .. read the 4:25 .. he is forcing the men to marry the captives.. now concentrate with me a bit.. throughout history all warriors whether phoenicians, babylonians, greeks, romans, christians or have conquered and raped women and impregnated them but the difference is all of them left these women alone and went back home to their original wives thus creating bastard sons and daughters ... islam tried a clever way to insert into the heads of its followers that if you intend to rape the woman you have to marry her first even if against her will, and by marrying her, you have to pay her due and your sons will be legitimate and thus they will inherit ..
so you see he found a way to enforce unto his men a sense of responisbility that no other religion did.
Quran 4:34 <---- this means that man should resort to one of the 3 measures only fif the wife adopts an attitude of obstinate defiance.. heheh and if you knew your bible you would have noticed Corinthians (1) 6-->8 hehe its the same thing
heheh now explain this my dear sir:
Exodus 21:20-21 If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property.
Peter 2:18 Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh.
Leviticus 25:44-45
Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property.
Ezekiel 20:25-26 I also gave them over to statutes that were not good and laws they could not live by; I let them become defiled through their gifts—the sacrifice of every firstborn—that I might fill them with horror so they would know that I am the LORD.
Ephesians 5:22-24 Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.
i am not showing you this to prove to you that the koran is better .. heheh on the contrary both books have horrendous errors and contradictions but they have also things and sayings that could and should benefit each and every one of us whether christians or muslims .. its up to us to choose, and that is the word of Jesus and unlike the Koran we as christians were given a choice, so choose wisely from what you think is true and throw away what you think is not .. or might have been badly written by the disciples or others .. and if you were a muslim forget about hadith and stick to the koran .. like the Shia's who reject the hadith or most of it ..
(by the way again the 72 virgins were man made ... similar to the writings of the disciples who chose to recite their own version of the life of jesus, the sahaba of mohammad wrote the hadith according to what they heard and understood of what mohammad said but the koran never mentioned any of that, thats why the SHIAA for example dont beleive in Hadith and only beleive in Koran)
PYEM Ministry Inc:
Sir, I agree with what you said when it comes to Muslims in religious context. You can check my blog and see that for yourself.
What I disagreed with you or it was more of pointing out was that what happened in Egypt was not inspired by Islam that much. The people who did that wasn't just saying because of the Quran, we will do so and so to her. I would not be even surprise if there were people there who claimed to be Christian.
I know that coz I am Egyptian, Sir. I lived these protest. They were thugs who would do anything for money, but it doesn't represent the revolution of the youth against the system or Islamic revolution. I am one of the people who r fighting now to make Egypt a Secular State.
I didn't mean to disagree with you, I know every verse you said, I had to memorize that in school and recite it.
God bless you and you Ministry
I would like to give some attention to the burning of the church happened during the revolution since the Media is giving little attention to it.
http://copticexperience.blogspot.com/2011/02/seventh-day-army-of-islam-palestinian.html
Jad,
Jad said, "and even the highest authority in the christian world allowed it ..."
No, the highest authority in the Christian world is NOT the pope... It's the Word of God.
The Pope is NOT Christ nor someone divine or infallible.. nor is the so-called 'Holy Mother Mary'.
And with regards to Matthew 16:18, that is not a command by Jesus to follow the "Church of Peter", nor was it even an announcement that Jesus has made Peter the pope.
You need to do more studying as you so readily advice other people to do.
I'm also surprised you are actually defending "the fact" that these people were using the bible "rightly" to justify their wrongful acts committed during the crusade, enslaving others and so on.
You do realize that anyone can use the bible to justify anything, depending on how they quote the bible, regardless of context of the verse quoted, just as you have done to prove your point.
And my link earlier has already covered your arguments that the Quran doesn't teach about virgins in paradise, and such, which you seem to have ignored during your last few comments.
Unless you actually agree with Irshad Manji, that the Quran promises 72 dark-skinned, huge-eyed, huge breasted RAISINS to the Muslim martyrs for Allah.
Jad,
are you a professed Muslim or a professed Christian? or just an agnostic/freethinker who believes in both Quran and Bible?
If you're not a Muslim, I'm surprise you keep stressing "read only the Quran". What authority or credentials you have to dictate what authority we should rely on with regards to the Islamic faith and beliefs? Upon what basis do you tell us to 'read only the Quran'?
Are you aware of the disadvantages and shortcomings of the Quran-only standing and ignoring the hadith literature?
Jad said, "bible-believing Christian<---- i didnt say i was i only said i was christian, by birth my friend.."
And if you're not a bible-believing Christian, what authority you have or from what foundation you stand upon to tell us what we should believe regarding the bible and about the Christian faith? You don't even know what is our 'highest authority in Christianity' and you have no foundation but your own self-made one.
You are amazingly 'knowledgeable' for someone who is only a Christian on paper...
I pray you put aside your ignorance and do a more diligent study of the bible and the biblical standing against the world and about history before you make more of these rather foolish/ignorant/naive arguments.
Zack,
There is something in Jad's posts I think you didn't notice.
"bible-believing Christian<---- i didnt say i was i only said i was christian, by birth my friend.."
I was actually writing a long response to him but stopped when suddenly I noticed that.
He is not a bible-believing Christian. He thinks he is a christian by birth (because he was born into a christian family).
He simply denied the word of God.
That's when I felt it was totally unnecessary to respond to him. If he is a christian then I'm a KKK member because my dad was one. You can't argue with a fool who thinks his birth into a christian family makes him a Christian.
Hello Jad:
I have written a few articles that answer most of your objections.In fact I was amazed that there are other verses in the Bible that change the meaning or radically alter things.
The vast majority of critics of the Bible don't know them.But when they are shown many refuse to acknowledge they were wrong.
They are in avraidire.com and antisharia.com:
But first you cited Cor(1):6-8,I looked it up,it has nothing you mentioned,you cited wrong.
For Ephesians 5:22-24 read:
http://www.avraidire.com/2010/06/can-women-preach-and-be-ministers-in-a-church/
For 1 Peter 2:18 read
http://www.avraidire.com/2010/07/answering-a-muslim-accusationthat-1-peter-says-a-female-slave-can-be-raped/
For Lev 25:44-45 read
http://www.avraidire.com/2010/04/slaverythe-koran-and-the-bible/
Hello Jad:
I forgot to refer to Exodus 21:20-21 which you cited,it is covered in the article on slavery in the Koran and the Bible.There is a Mosaic law that says if a slave escapes he is free,so that is his option even in Exod 21:20-21.Most never know of that law.
About Matthew 16:18:
Look, before in Matthew 16:15-16 Jesus asks Peter who he is and Peter says he is the Messiah.
So?
The rock on which the church is built is Jesus.We know because Jesus specifically calls himself rock,stone in other parts.
Basic Rule of Interpretation
A clear verse tells you what a less clear verse means (when both talk of a similar/same theme)
to Zack:
I'm also surprised you are actually defending "the fact" that these people ...
<--- my god .... u really dont know how to read do you !?... im not defending anything im saying they misinterpreted what was said in the bible and used this misinterpretation to convince other followers to do the same and attack and do other atrocities.. the same as you are doing after reading my texts, youre misinterpreting and convincing yourself that i meant "this" or "that" then convincing others.. but the only difference is that you cant wage war ;)
And my link earlier has already covered your arguments that the Quran doesn't teach about virgins in paradise, a.......
<---- it seems youre not familiar with Hadith.. and again ive explianed tens of times during my last speech that Hadith is not
koran and followers of Koran are not obliged to follow "Hadith" and i gave you an example of the "Shia'a " community who do not follow "Hadith" .. the 72 virgins are in "Hadith" not in the Koran... Geez.. im just repeating myself to you and i think its because you dont understand these technical terms .. dont be shy just ask and ill explain them but dont keep repeating the same comment.
are you a professed Muslim or a professed Christian.....
<--- MY GODDD ... i answered that if u read correctly.. im neither.. im a lawyer. and a christian .. but who can think for himself.
And if you're not a bible-believing Christian, what authority y....<--- youre hilarious.. what do i care what u believe, im not here to convince anyone im just giving out my opinion like the other one gave his opinion and bashed the islamic faith just because a few imbeciles raped Lara Logan.. talk about ignorance...
You are amazingly 'knowledgeable' for someone who is only a Christian on paper...
<--- though it seems as a compliment i know you didnt mean it that way..
being a lawyer my friend and living in Beirut leans you to either neglect the other party living with you which is the muslims or just be curious to know more about the others, and i chose the second path and i know now more than a lot of muslims about their own faith .
remember us in Beirut have the Civil and penal Code which is like France and we have the personal status code which takes into consideration issues declared in the bible and in the koran depending on the religion of the parties in litigation.
so if a muslim married couple comes and asks for divorce we dont take the civil code but rather the personal status which takes into consideration the laws stated in the koran, same thing for christians. so us lawyers are bound to know lets say 20% of the Koran at least and its up to us to continue and be intrigued by the other 80% or just keep it in the 20% and continue our lives. i chose to know more to understand and to serve better my brothers of the other religion.
I pray you put aside your ignorance and do a more diligent study of .......
<---- i extremely doubt that you can instruct me or advise me to learn better about my bible.. specially by just saying it and not proving one single error in what i stated. i will not do the same with you but rather rest my case and let you maybe re-read what i posted before and understand the essence of what i am explaining rather than taking an aggressive stance against me. :)
To Minoria
But first you cited Cor(1):6-8,I looked it up,it has nothing you mentioned,you cited wrong.<--- actually i didnt i just 4got one number but thx for noticing, it should be like that:
Corinthians (1) 11: 6-->9
And regarding the links u gave me and with all due respect but since we are discussing here amongst ourselves i prefer u do not cite words that other people explained or said, i do not know these people and i dont know their background, if u have a viewpoint then dont hesitate and just say it and if u want to quote what better than the Bible itself not mere human beings talking. Again i appreciate ure hardwork in finding the links but i did not read them since they are not of our God and if it was your opinion then please write it yourself in yourbown wOrds so that i can answer you personally for answering you on those links means im responding to the writer of the link who is not present amongst us thus disrespecting him ;)
To Ministry
That's when I felt it was totally unnecessary to respond to him. If he is a christian then I'm a KKK member because my dad was one. You can't argue with a fool who thinks his birth into a christian family makes him a Christian. <-- why do weak communicators always resort to slander or personal attacks when they feel beweakened. My dear friend and im still respecting you because im sure face to face you wouldve started by crying right about now. Not saying i am something doesnt mean i am not, what i said is that im christian by nirth meaning i did not convert i was born in a full christian society and was baptised by birth. But i didnt confirm or deny if i was a bible believing person and not you nor anyone else can decide that for me. If you had the least amount of knowledge of the bible and its teachings or the least amount of respect you wouldve asked so easily if i was and i wouldve answered you instead of you judging me. Again mind your words for even Jesus himself and after the 3rd warning took the whip and kicked their asses and we wouldnt want that to happen to you now would we dear boy?
ooo okay...so I am an astronaut and I know everything about rocket science because I was born into a astronaut family and my father is an astronaut and when I was a little kid he took me to NASA and baptized me in the name of apollo 13. Ok I get it :)
You made it pretty clear: "bible-believing Christian<---- i didnt say i was i only said i was christian, by birth my friend.."
That is your own post, not mine :)
@jad
Koran 78:31
As for the righteous, they shall surely triumph. Theirs shall be gardens and vineyards, and high- bosomed virgins for companions: a truly overflowing cup.
Koran 37:40-48
...They will sit with bashful, dark-eyed virgins, as chaste as the sheltered eggs of ostriches.
Koran 44:51-55
...Yes and We shall wed them to dark-eyed houris. (beautiful virgins)
Koran 52:17-20
...They shall recline on couches ranged in rows. To dark-eyed houris (virgins) we shall wed them...
Koran 55:56-57
In them will be bashful virgins neither man nor Jinn will have touched before.Then which of the favours of your Lord will you deny ?"
Koran 55:57-58
Virgins as fair as corals and rubies. Then which of the favours of your Lord will you deny ?"
Koran 56:7-40
...We created the houris (the beautiful women) and made them virgins, loving companions for those on the right hand.. "
Koran 55:70-77
"In each there shall be virgins chaste and fair... Dark eyed virgins sheltered in their tents whom neither man nor Jin will have touched before..
seekseekk you kafir why did you mis-translate and misinterpret quran you kafir you lol those are raisins not virgins :)
ooo okay...so I am an astronaut and I know everything about rocket science because I was born into a astronaut family and my father is an astronaut and when I was a little kid he took me to NASA and baptized me in the name of apollo 13. Ok I get it :)
<--- well good for you .. but this isnt my case, i am a christian because i was born a christian yes. christianity is not a profession my friend it is a religion thus yes you are not asked your opinion about it your are born holding it and not until later in your life do you have the choice to change it .. and i havent.
You made it pretty clear: "bible-believing Christian<---- i didnt say i was i only said i was christian, by birth my friend.."
<--- ouff you have such a prejudice on me its pathetic .. anyway yes i didnt say i was and i didnt say i wasnt .. dont me so tighheaded .. broaden your mind a bit .. dont hold prejudices .. theres always 2 sides .. you just gotta ask to know which one it is dont judge .. youre still too poorly educated to make hasty judgments.
ن أنا
Founded in 2010 by S.M. Anowarul Kabir, an Ex-Muslim Evangelical Christian from Bangladesh, PYEM is a ministry for Christ dedicated to putting an end to the ongoing global oppression and terrorism being carried out by followers of satanic cult of death Islam and its false, rapist, murderer, pedophile prophet Muhammed, by exposing the lies of Islam, Quran and Muhammed<--- this was written on your profile... what is that .. its hilarious .... if thats how you think then i must end the conversation because it seems i am in the presence of an ignorant radicalist who has no knowledge of the region over her nor over the situation between christians and muslims or their intermingled relations one to another ...
if you come to lebanon one days or any other country in the region and a christian hears you saying what you wrote on your profile youll be cast out of the community and laughed at ... im sorry my friend but again if thats what you think and how you react then you need serious treatment and re-education .. youre parents with all due respect to them must have messed up gravely for you to become such a hater and a radicalist.
im sorry really am. for you ..
To SeekSeek
Koran 78:31
As for the righteous, they shall surely triumph. Theirs shall be gardens and vineyards, and high- bosomed virgins for companions: a truly overflowing cup.
<--- oufff heheh where did u get this translation from ?!..
heres the translation:
Indeed, for the righteous is attainment -Gardens and grapevines And full-breasted [companions] of equal age And a full cup. No ill speech will they hear therein or any falsehood etc... (quran.com)
and though i hate translating from the original language since there are far too many arabic words that do not have a counterpart in english since the arabic language is much bigger than the english so where did you find virgins in the text ?!
Koran 37:40-48
...They will sit with bashful, dark-eyed virgins, as chaste as the sheltered eggs of ostriches<---- hahah where r u getting your translation ..
"But not the chosen servants of Allah .
Those will have a provision determined -
Fruits; and they will be honored
In gardens of pleasure
On thrones facing one another.
There will be circulated among them a cup [of wine] from a flowing spring
White and delicious to the drinkers;
And with them will be women limiting [their] glances, with large, [beautiful] eyes
...
listen i wont continue for your other koranic verses because it seems youre either writing them from your own imagination or misquoting entirely.. my advice to you is to go to www.Quran.com for any quranic quoting.. or to http://www.o-bible.com/bbe.html for your bible quoting
though nice effort.. i guess..
again for any new comers in this attack against me a reminder .. heheh im a christian, im not a muslim, and im not defending neither the christian faith nor the muslim faith nor their books. all im saying is that do not hate people cse of their religion especially, and i assert on ESPECIALLY if you know nothing of their religion or to say the least your own, dont pretend you know go and find out .. and be objective youll be surprised..
im not saying youll become a muslim or a christian ... but youll at least be able to see the good and the bad in both religions .
so if i were to discuss with a muslim on his religion i could objectively specify the true errors of his Quran not quotes that i claim to understand but know nothing of..
and if i were to discuss with a christian on his own religion i could also specify the true errors or contradictions in his faith without pretending to know his faith but rather knowing it ..
beleive me if you all go and read both books and mix them together into one .. youll find it very interesting for our society since as i mentioned before, the bible is a stupendously utopic book of God written to guide people who wish to attain to a level of spirituality far bigger than anyone could imagine, but alas has nothing to benefit humanity in its daily life rather than to love, forgive etc... so no actual practicalities for the daily life.
while the Koran and set aside some of the huge mistakes that mohammad has commited IMHO and with all due respect to the Muslims who are reading this but the koranic surrahs, well most of them actually guide human beings to several solutions to the every day problems that might occur even in nowadays although it was written 1358 years ago but you can still implement the solutions given by it to our problems .. believe me i know we are doing it in several legal systems and its working with no problems .. actually if it didnt exist it wouldve created lots of catastrophes like the ones we are seeing for example in civil marriages nowadays and prenumbtual agreements and divorces etc.. problems that civil code can not even find a permanent solution to... while the qoran has already the answers for such things it doesnt mention anything about spirituality but rather mixes it up with some myths to drift from the true sense of spirituality that the bible has chosen to explain to us .
i would sum it up by calling the bible a book which reveals the road to perfectionism but fails to answer us mortals on our daily questions on practical life
the quran succeeds in guiding and leading humans into their daily lives but fails to specify or explain the beyond theory, and substitutes it by either hell or heaven and makes it utterly simple and archaic as if humans are naive and are not meant to strive for more or think far more than their "earthly lives".
again i hope i didnt offend any one of both religions and peace be upon you all.
"yes i didnt say i was and i didnt say i wasnt"
Well I am an astronaut and I'm not. Let's go to the moon. I will be your pilot and at the same time I will not be your pilot.
"if you come to lebanon one days or any other country in the region and a christian hears you saying what you wrote on your profile youll be cast out of the community and laughed at"
Being accepted into or being a part of any community doesn't make me a Christian. There are no churches in Saudi Arabia. So I guess those in Saudi who secretly accept Chris are not christians either. Furthermore, I could give a rat less about who laughs/mocks at me and who doesn't. You thought I accepted Christ so that people shower me with money and flowers? I worship God, not the material world. So again you are wrong.
Notice that you again said you are NOT a bible-believing Christian.
Regarding my profile: Not only those are my own opinion but also I have irrefutable and hardcore proof that Muhammed was a necrophiliac:
http://pyemministry.blogspot.com/2010/11/muhammed-was-necrophile-evidence-and.html
I now guess I will be lynched by your Lebanon Fake Non-Bible-Believing community.
I will not condemn you though, but God's wrath will still be on you because you don't believe in him.
You still have ample time to repent and re-accept Christ. Your birth into a christian family and child baptism don't mean anything.
Jad said, "And my link earlier has already covered your arguments that the Quran doesn't teach about virgins in paradise, a.......
<---- it seems youre not familiar with Hadith.. and again ive explianed tens of times "
And it seems very clear that you DID NOT look at the link (or at least, the video linked). David Wood clearly quoted from the Quran and ONLY the Quran for that video (He clearly states so even, at the beginning).
You, sir, are the one at fault of being ignorant.
Jad said, "the same as you are doing after reading my texts, youre misinterpreting and convincing yourself that i meant "this" or "that" then convincing others.. but the only difference is that you cant wage war ;)"
And you can? Sorry, you just showed how easily misinterpreted you are. Sorry if I misunderstood your earlier intentions.
But my intention was not to misinterpret you (nor are you not guilty of misinterpreting me), but to defend your false assertions, especially of what we should believe (i.e. Pope, Matthew 16:18).
Jad said, "are you a professed Muslim or a professed Christian.....
<--- MY GODDD ... i answered that if u read correctly.. im neither.. im a lawyer. and a christian .. but who can think for himself."
And if you read through my whole argument before jumping into your 'reply' mode, you would see I did take note of your 'answer'.
If you fail to 'interpret' my intentions of making such arguments, then maybe you need to improve your objectivity as a practicing lawyer.
Jad also said, "Again i appreciate ur hardwork in finding the links but i did not read them since they are not of our God"
And I find this hilarious... how ironic he finds all these articles to be not of God, and yet happily ignores that fact that God used normal people (albeit godly people) to write the Old and New Testaments and the consequent manuscripts/records of the OT and NT (and supposedly, the Quran too; Muhammad himself didn't write the Quran)... the only thing (I'm aware of) that God wrote Himself was the Ten Commandments which He gave to Moses... Isn't it ironic?
Jad also said, "Again mind your words for even Jesus himself and after the 3rd warning took the whip and kicked their asses and we wouldnt want that to happen to you now would we dear boy?"
3rd Warning? Whip? The only time I recall Jesus ever held a whip was in John 2:13-16, and that was to drive out the money changers out of the temple... and there was no warning.
Talk about someone who knows "at least an amount of knowledge of the bible"...
Jad also said, "You made it pretty clear: "bible-believing Christian<---- i didnt say i was i only said i was christian, by birth my friend.."
<--- ouff you have such a prejudice on me its pathetic .. anyway yes i didnt say i was and i didnt say i wasnt .."
Talk about being confusing and not clear in your statements.
Proper translation of what Jad said, "Bible-believing Christian? I didn't say I was. Only said I was Christian, and it was by birth, my friend."
So... sounds to me you DID deny being a bible-believing Christian, AND instead claim you're only a Christian by birth. PYEM Ministry was not at any fault, I find.
Jad also said, "if you come to lebanon one days or any other country in the region and a christian hears you saying what you wrote on your profile youll be cast out of the community and laughed at ..."
And so now, the opinions/mindset of Christians in Lebanon is what we should deem the truth and of God? Wow... what consistency...
Jad quotes Koran 78:31, "..for the righteous is attainment -Gardens and grapevines And full-breasted [companions] of equal age..." and Koran 37:40-48, "And with them will be women limiting [their] glances, with large, [beautiful] eyes.."
Yeah... there is no virgins promised in the bible... Just women with perfect breasts and beautiful eyes and of equal age. Yeah... no virgins.
Jad also said, "youll at least be able to see the good and the bad in both religions ." and "beleive me if you all go and read both books and mix them together into one .. youll find it very interesting"
2 Corinthians 6:14, "Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness?"
I recommend you read the whole chapter.
Just so YOU don't understand, I'm not advocating complete isolation from non-Christians, but just isolation from condoning other religions that disagree with the Word of God and the Bible.
Looks like you really do need to take your own advice and study the bible more diligently.
Hello Jad:
The links I gave are my own words.In addition 1 Cor 11:6-9 is explained in:
http://www.avraidire.com/2010/06/can-women-preach-and-be-ministers-in-a-church/
In also treats of all the so-called anti-woman passages in the NT.And why I think they have been quoted out of context.
You mentioned that sura 4:24-25 forces a Muslim man to marry a slave girl.
You base it on believing sura 33:49means Muhammed in 33:50 had not slept with any wife.
Historians use the Historical Method and all the evidence is such a belief has no evidence at all.
Your belief that Muhammad married more than 4 because he hadn't slept with any and had divorced them is without evidence.
That being the case 33:50 talks simply of who Muhammad could have sex with and it says he could with the slave girls and with his wives
The slave girls are not wives.
Chapter 33:50:
“Oh prophet, verily, we make lawful for you (Note:for sex):
1.Your wives to who you have given their hire,
2.And what you right hand possesses (Note:slave girls) out of the booty that God has granted you
3.And the daughters of your paternal uncle and the daughters of your paternal aunts, and the daughters of your maternal uncle and the daughters of your maternal aunts, provided they have fled with you,
4.And any believing woman if she give herself to the prophet, if the prophet desire to marry her, a special privilege this for you, above the other believers.
We knew what we ordained for them concerning their wives and what their right hands possess (Note:slave girls), that there should be no hindrance to you, and God is forgiving, merciful.”
Correction to my comment:
Jad quotes Koran 78:31, "..for the righteous is attainment -Gardens and grapevines And full-breasted [companions] of equal age..." and Koran 37:40-48, "And with them will be women limiting [their] glances, with large, [beautiful] eyes.."
Yeah... there is no virgins promised in the *Quran*... Just women with perfect breasts and beautiful eyes and of equal age. Yeah... no virgins.
PS: Sorry for my error while fast-typing.
I now guess I will be lynched by your Lebanon Fake Non-Bible-Believing community.
<---- you little ignorant ... Lebanon is where Jesus spend all his life Lebanon is where Jesus made his first miracle, Lebanon where the first christians on earth .. and you with your hatred and your disrespect for other religions claim a christian .. you little ignorant to be a christian you must love everyone , including those of other religions and you must respect them not judge them or insult them which you are. you are not considered a christian you are a hypocrite and a poor one also .. its been 3 conversations you have nothign to say but your pathetic story of astronauts, what is it with you and astronauts, its hilarious, your mind is so thight that you dont even understand that even the disciples at one point didnt admit their true believes for they were surrounded by lowlifes like you, but that didnt mean they denied it, not all of them at least, and even the one who did deny, he did and then spread his word but that doesnt mean a mere human who has such hatred in his heart could stand and judge.. how old are you little boy !? what do u do for a living !?.. you need a total reconstruction of your life ... and i think this hatred towards muslims is based upon a personal experience which i am sure happened to you or to one of your family from a muslim community or person. do share please and dont be shy, but if it has anything to do with astronauts for gods sake keep it for yourself and try to be a little bit creative
To zack_tiang
enno you just come in the middle of the conversation not readint from the top and give your irrelevant opinion.. okay i respect that but next time read ..
Again i appreciate ur hardwork in finding the links but i did not read them since they are not of our God"
<----- i was talking about Hadith in islam and YES GOD DIDNT WRITE IT, MUFTIS WROTE IT ACCORDING TO THEIR OWN EXPERIENCES WITH THE PROPHET MOHAMMAD... read before giving your comment..Read from top to bottom..or dont speak.
the rest that you said is not worth responding to cse again its a direct and personal attack on me and my beliefs and that is not what we are talking here nor our conversation so its irrelevant and not important.
regarding the women promissed in the koran i see not the problem in your comment . again it seems you are not reading from the top just commenting for the fun of it... my dear friend im not here to defend the koran nor the bible im here to explain the misuse of them or misinterpretation of them ...
theres a big difference between virgins, underage and women ... if to say that the koran mentioned the first or the second is not fair, they said women full grown women.. now heheh by quoting that what you think your proved that its bad to promisse women for man in paradise .. maybe it is .. but that doesnt mean that our bible didnt say things horrific .. for example the stoning to death of disobedient children (Deuteronomy 21:18-21) and that women will go to heaven only if they were childbearers (1 timothy 2:15) or even worse Men are worth more than women with actual comparison in dollars (Leviticus 27:1-7)
even more the Bible says that the sole reason God created women in the first place was to provide company and service to men (1 Corinthians 11:9)
and a lot more i dont have time to write themm, plus i wrote some before. now dont be a fool and write me an opposite comment stating the same things in Koran because i know they exist and maybe even worse than the bibkle but that doesnt mean that in the bible or in the koran they dont respect women.. because in many other places in both books there are wonderful sentences to glorify women... but still errors occured and were written.. did God write that a women is worth 30 shekels and a man 60 !> i doubt it a lot Did God write that women will be present in paradise for men to enjoy !? maybe but i doubt it .. but still its in the bible and it is in the koran ..
so either we take the book as a whole and admit it was all said by god or we dont and we choose whatever pleases us and say it was from God ..
for the last time i am not an advocator of islam nor am i a defender of it . as such i am not an advocator of the christian faith even though i am of it nor am i a defender of it unless someone of the different faith dares and attacks it .. meaning if a muslim dares and attacks the christian faith i will defend it by stating the same inconsistencies he mentioned in the bible in his own koran and the same thing when a christian like ministry attacks the muslim faith just for the fun of it i will and as i did show him the same contradictions in the bible and he or she will be lost and angry and start talking about astronauts .. maybe in a bizarre wish that he could up there in space just to run away from the conversation and him getting several blows to his speech full of hatred.
And it seems very clear that you DID NOT look at the link (or at least, the video linked). David Wood clearly quoted from the Quran and ONLY the Quran for that video (He clearly states so even, at the beginning).
You, sir, are the one at fault of being ignorant.
<---- dont know him . but do tell me what he quoted and i will answer you upon it .. as i stated before all quotes related to people saying stuff i will not answer because these people are not present for me to answer them. but if you wish to quote a "quote" by another person from the koran then dont send me a video of him quoting .. my god just quote it and ill answer it ...
Jad said, "dont know him . but do tell me what he quoted and i will answer you upon it .. as i stated before all quotes related to people saying stuff i will not answer because these people are not present for me to answer them. but if you wish to quote a "quote" by another person from the koran then dont send me a video of him quoting .. my god just quote it and ill answer it ..."
Don't know David Wood?? Here's a hint...
You're commenting on a blog site that he is administering in.... to be more precise...
you're actually commenting in one of the blog posts that was written by him.
If that's not good enough a reason for you to respond or even just look at a less than ten minute video by him...
Then you are the one who is being ignorant and are not being objective at all.
You made your claim that the Quran never mentioned about virgins... I answered your claim and presented my supporting evidence... which is given by someone who has studied Islam far longer and far more diligently than both you and I combined.
I even linked it for your convenience to just click it.. load the video.. and watch.
If you still won't do it, well, I'm not the one being inconsistent with what I've said.
You keep talking about me not 'reading' what you wrote.. and yet, over and over I see you not even understanding what I'm pointing out (or what other's have said, too) or saying something that was incorrect; like this next one that I'm going to point out to you.
Jad said, "Again i appreciate ur hardwork in finding the links but i did not read them since they are not of our God"
<----- i was talking about Hadith in islam and YES GOD DIDNT WRITE IT, "
The links that minoria linked were not the hadith, if you failed to realize/remember... That's for not reading the comments AND/OR the links...
Plus, as minoria pointed out (and even stated in his earlier comment before you responded to him about the links), those links/articles were of his writings; i.e. "I have written a few articles.. They are in ___.com....".
Look who's accusing someone of not reading before giving a comment/reply.
Also, I said, "And I find this hilarious... how ironic he finds all these articles to be not of God, and yet happily ignores that fact that God used normal people (albeit godly people) to write the Old and New Testaments and the consequent manuscripts/records of the OT and NT (and supposedly, the Quran too; Muhammad himself didn't write the Quran)... the only thing (I'm aware of) that God wrote Himself was the Ten Commandments which He gave to Moses... Isn't it ironic?"
You seem to have failed to realized I made this argument..
The fact that you still accept the bible and the Quran as being of God... when God Himself never *personally* wrote them.
So, if you can accept the writings (i.e. OT, NT) of normal people (albeit godly people)... Why can't you accept the writings of normal people (who even believes the same God who inspired the writings of those earlier writers) that wrote in a later time?
With this regard, I like to quote from one of my Christian apologist idols, Dr James White, "Inconsistency is the sign of a failed argument."
And you want to accuse me of commenting only later into a conversation.. how about you?
You suddenly appeared at this blog site and started commenting as if you know everything about this site (i.e. it's *supposed* true motive/intentions to mock/insult Muslims/followers of other religions, etc)... compared to me who have been commenting at this site and following the works of some of the bloggers of this site for a much longer time than you did.
Can I, thus, accuse you of joining this site later and thus, not know what you're talking about either?
I doubt you'd agree with that rationality.
Jad said, "theres a big difference between virgins, underage and women ..."
I'm fully aware there's a big difference between those three... Although I don't recall ever mentioning anything about underage.. (I mentioned about 'equal age', but that's only because you mentioned it)
OK... Let's accept the translations you quoted... so... it seems that you then accept that in the Quran, instead of virgins, Muhammad was actually just promising there'll be specially created women (regardless of whether they're virgins or not) awaiting the Muslim martyrs in paradise...
Honestly, I don't see what's the big difference. It's still a promise of eternal sex in paradise. I wonder what's the appeal if it wasn't about sex, but just having lots of mere female companions (i.e. best friends forever?).
Isn't four wives good enough company?
Lastly, Jad said, "the rest that you said is not worth responding to cse again its a direct and personal attack on me and my beliefs and that is not what we are talking here nor our conversation so its irrelevant and not important."
I like to challenge you to point out where and when I made ONE "direct and personal attack on you"..
If you weren't so 'aggressive', you'd realized that all that I've said were your own words, just used against yourself.
If I am guilty of ad hominem attacks, well, that's because you did it first (regardless who you did it to within this blog post).
I never made any such attacks/arguments against you, but merely used your own words against yourself.
Hello Jad:
I think there are some details of Biblical analysis that you have not yet read about.
Example:
I had refered to Matthew and Peter and "on this rock I will build my church".I already gave you the answer,just want to add more info.
The Eastern Church always understood the rock to be Jesus,and so did Augustine,who was of the Western Church.
I had told you why,in other parts Jesus refers to himself as a rock/stone.It follows a basic rule of analysis for the works of a philsopher like Aristotle,Plato,Kant,etc:
"A clear verse about X subject tells us what the same thinker thought in a less clear verse on the same/similar subject."
So?
So you mentioned 1 Tim 2:15:
"But women will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety"
Clear Verse and Less Clear
I am not inventing this,it is a rule used for Marx's works,Freud's,Paul's,Buddha's.
Paul says clearly that you are saved by faith in Jesus.
In 1 Tim he is using a metaphor,being expressive,not referrig to getting to heaven.
If they have a child and live good lives they will be "saved"/have a life worth living.
But in other letters Paul said it was better,in his opinion,to be single.That simply shows 1 Tim uses a metaphor.
Again,always have in mind the main ideas of an author whether Paul,Spinoza,Satre,Onfray,etc before you say he meant X thing.
Hello Jad:
Mosaic law has death for some 12 cases.There is a difference with the Koran.
1.Nobody ever saw an angel appear and talk to Muhammad.Only he.
2.In the OT it says all the Jews saw miracle after miracle after miracle in Egypt and later,at the time of Moses.
3.The Jews were given the choice(ask any rabbi) to accept Mosaic law and become the chosen People.
4.If they said yes God would protect them.
5.If not(ask any rabbi),they could still go to heaven by following the 7 Noahide laws for the non-Jews.
Maybe you didn't know those details,so they knew of the death for some 12 cases (like Deut 21:18-21) and they had a say.
Did Muslims have a Choice?
In the Koran it says they cant eat pork,drink wine,a Muslim woman cant marry a non-Muslim man,cut off the hands of a thief,100 lashes for fornicatiors,etc.
Were Muslims in Mohammed's day given the choice?No.
So you see Islam and Judaism are NOT in the same situation
Hello Jad:
You mentioned Lev 27:1-7 with:
"The LORD said to Moses, 2 “Speak to the Israelites and say to them: ‘If anyone makes a special vow to dedicate a person to the LORD by giving the equivalent value, 3 set the value of a male between the ages of twenty and sixty at fifty shekels[a] of silver, according to the sanctuary shekel[b]; 4 for a female, set her value at thirty shekels,etc."
Here a person gave his child over to Temple service and then men were the breadwinners and so a son brought income to the family.
But then a man is worth twice a woman?
No,because a woman's value was alot also in that society since to marry a woman you had to give her a dowry.You had to give alot of money to have the right to marry her.
Compare to Hinduism
There,in old times:
1.The sons were the breadwinners.
2.The girl had to give a dowry to marry a man.
See how the woman in old India had a lower status since:
1.She is neither a breadwinner
2.Nor is any man obliged to give her a dowry,she has to give him a man a dowry.
Hello Jad:
You said:
"even more the Bible says that the sole reason God created women in the first place was to provide company and service to men (1 Corinthians 11:9)"
1 Cor 11:8-12:
"For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; 9
neither was man created for woman, but woman for man. "
Why was Man not Created for Woman?
Because there were no women then,he came first.He was NOT CREATED for her since she DIDNT EXIST.
Then man needed a companion and God created woman.
What if Woman had been Created First?
Then you would say:"Woman was NOT CREATED for man but MAN for WOMAN."
It goes on to say:
"Nevertheless, in the Lord:
1.Woman is not independent of man, nor is man independent of woman.
2.For as woman came from man, so also man is born of woman.
But everything comes from God."
Did you Know?
I think you dont know this detail,most dont,but the OT says MAN=female and male,so they are both the same in essence (man/human) and equal.
EXAMPLE 1: GENESIS 1:26-27:
” Then God said, “Let us make ADAM ( MAN ) in OUR IMAGE, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”
So God created MAN in his OWN IMAGE,in the IMAGE of GOD he created HIM;MALE and FEMALE he created them. ”
EXAMPLE 2: GEN 5:1-2:
” This is the written account of Adam’s line.When God CREATED MAN, he made him in the LIKNESS of God. He created them MALE and FEMALE and blessed them. And when they were created, he called them ” MAN ” .”
Jad:
It was unkind of you to insult PYEM and regarding Lebanon's Christians with all due respect since they are not Protestant they rarely read the Bible.
So their ideas are lacking in knowledge.I know most are Maronites(Catholics).How many of them know Jesus refers to himself as a rock/stone?
Very few since they never read.
How many know that Jesus directly predicted his death and resurrected in 3 days 3X in Mark,Luke and Matthew?
Hardly any.How many of them know Jesus predicted the destruction of the Temple which happened in 70 AD(Mark,Luke,Matthew)?
Hardly any.How many know:
1.About Midrash
2.And the repetition of the number 40 in the OT and even NT
3.And that scholars are divided between 30 AD and 33 AD as the year for Jesus' death?
None,and that 30 AD+ 40 years = 7 AD (the year the Temple was destroyed).
Read:
http://www.avraidire.com/2011/02/sur-une-prophetie-de-jesus-et-la-repetition-du-chiffre-40/
A true Christian is not one who goes to Church and nothing else but one who is really interested in what God's message is...the only way is by reading the Bible,analysing it,seeking out information about obscure/difficult passages.
@JAD
there are believe it or not diff translations of the koran,but going by yours i still dont see your point,
BY YOURS.... YOU ARE STILL PROMISED WOMEN
what is your point????
oh and check the virgin ref from your own quran.com
http://quran.com/55/70-77
heher
Hello again people from cocoland. Obviously, you cannot see TV from where you are. Well, let me give you the picture from my country Egypt. Egyptians from every ethnicity have gotten to the streets to say NO to a dectator. In liberation square, you saw women in hijab and women in tight jeans, you saw guys with huge beards, and guys with their hair in ponytails. We saw Christian brothers surrounding Muslims while they prayed and Muslim brothers surrounding Chistians as they prayed. The pictures are all over the web, but you are all blind, as usual. As for the incident, I would like to tell you that tens of journalists, most of them muslims, have been molested during these protests, one Egyptian Muslim journalist was even killed. A dictator does not differntiate a Muslim and a Christian when he kills them. So, idiots, please watch the news before you comment here.
To Minoria
It was unkind of you to insult PYEM and regarding Lebanon's Christians with all due respect since they are not Protestant they rarely read the Bible.
<---what !? .. minoria !? come on.. in 3 posts he kept insulting me and i kept telling him dear friend, and mind your words, and dont insult .. but he kept going .. plus read his profile its like hes a neo-nazi the little guy ..
not Protestant they rarely read the Bible.<--- no youre absolutely wrong on the maronites... they all read the bible .. plus btw check the saints canonized in lebanon theyre the most in the world..and theyre all maronites. and 2 more wille be canonized this year i think... maronites arfe the same aa catholics the same no differences .. even the Cardinal of maronites which is the Cardinal of antioch and orient and who is Lebanese is part of the high council of cardinals in the Vatican.
A true Christian is not one who goes to Church and nothing else but one who is really interested in what God's message is...the only way is by reading the Bible,analysing it,seeking out information about obscure/difficult passages.
<---- i agree... thats what i am saying to them all .. dont read to read and quote only .. read,analyze and seek.. and dont destroy other religions without even reading,analyzing and seeking in their books the same way youre doing with yours .. meaning if i claim to b a christian i must have read,analyzed and seeked the truth within my bible and if i want to comment on others religion i must at least have read,analyzed and seeked the truth within their books to become eligible for such comments .
To Minoria
No,because a woman's value was alot also in that society since to marry a woman you had to give her a dowry.You had to give alot of money to have the right to marry her.
<---- umm...you are correct..
i read it in the bible and in the bible theres the word نذر , which is pronounced Nether, and means "Vow" in a broader sense.. and has many meanings but when reading the english version i see it means vow to the church meaning to become a priest.. my mistake youre absolutely correct.
but still i was comparing that even the bible set a value for man double then that of a women in general. and the quran did the same by saying that 2 women are equal to 1 man maybe for reasons of them being breadwinners
now in matters of marriage the bible set a high dowry for a women but he set it according to her beauty her health etc... the same goes for the quran who claimed that a women is worth the same as her sister from her father and mother if she has good beauty and health etc...
(Regarding induism and hinduism i know and i agree. )
To Minoria:
Clear Verse and Less Clear
I am not inventing this,it is a rule used for Marx's works,Freud's,Paul's,Buddha's.
Paul says clearly that you are saved by faith in Jesus.
In 1 Tim he is using a metaphor,being expressive,not referrig to getting to heaven.
If they have a child and live good lives they will be "saved"/have a life worth living.
But in other letters Paul said it was better,in his opinion,to be single.That simply shows 1 Tim uses a metaphor.
Again,always have in mind the main ideas of an author whether Paul,Spinoza,Satre,Onfray,etc before you say he meant X thing.
<--- finally someone logical and clever... you are right minoria. this is the way to analyze it and understand it .. and that was my message to the others.. the same goes for the quran analysis should be done according to the same principle even if it is claimed that the quran was handed out to Mohammad as it is with no allowed changes but let us simplify it by doing our own analysis and figuring out why he did what he did or said what he said ..
i will give u a slight example that i still remember from my old university days actually my first university year in Law, which was explained thoroughly by one of my revered professors back then.
mohammad when he allowed the marriage of more than one.. he did it when in war so to speak ... meaining mohammad one day noticed that all the soldiers who lets say got married in meccah for example, were often rushed to war in places far far away from meccah where they would stay months there and even years .. so these men were as all men are drawn to their physical needs at some point and were to sleep with other women and thus have bastard children spread throughout the arabian peninsula,especially that back then in Arabia polygamy was allowed and was normal..and that for mohammad was not allowed (remember what the christians in their multiple raids did and how many bastard children they left through the kingdoms they conquered)
so he thought i would set a boundary and since i can not prevent the man from feeling aroused after years without touching their first wives and i cannot force them not to rape or commit adultery etc.. i would tell them take only 4 wives under one condition that you treat them equally in all aspects.
now in reality what this law made was that every men now couldnt think of his physical needs only he had to think that if he succombed to this physical need at some point and decided to sleep with this woman he should marry her first and thus he will have a child which will inherit with his mother the fortunes of his father as such he should treat her with the respect and the equality hes doing with his first wife... so it settled things back then.it created order in a time of disorder..
to Minoria
here you disappoint me regarding the pork and the wine, the non muslim marriage etc..
Leviticus 11:7-8 <-- read it regarding Christianity forbidding us to eat pork ;)
regarding wine the bible didnt prohibit it but warned against the excess of it and warned pregnant women from it etc.. but after jesus it didnt work out nobody followed the rule they all got drunk since it was allowed so mohammad decided to ban it alltogether .. (remember i said earlier the bible is utopic, quran is more practical ) meaning i agree with the faxt that the bible did indeed give a lot of space and choice but it didnt rectify the society a lot back then, the quran scared them into rectification .. by hhehehe always scaring them with Hell and severe consequences so they did as the book told them.
And you want to accuse me of commenting only later into a conversation.. how about you?
You suddenly appeared at this blog site and started commenting as if you know everything about this site (i.e. it's *supposed* true motive/intentions to mock/insult Muslims/followers of other religions, etc)... compared to me who have been commenting at this site and following the works of some of the bloggers of this site for a much longer time than you did.
Can I, thus, accuse you of joining this site later and thus, not know what you're talking about either?
I doubt you'd agree with that rationality.
<---- what r u talking about ~?.. appared on the site and blablabla .. i saw an article on Logan and i read it and found a biased opinion on islam from ministry and i replied, i didnt register nor do i think there is registration on this site nor do i need a person like you to invite me to talk on this site or not to talk .. what is your point exactly ?
Honestly, I don't see what's the big difference. It's still a promise of eternal sex in paradise. I wonder what's the appeal if it wasn't about sex, but just having lots of mere female companions (i.e. best friends forever?).
<--- yes i agree it was eternal sex in paradise. you see you still dont get what im aiming for .. because youre too obsessed with being anti-muslim and biased..
i never said that what muhammad said was true or correct i only said dont subjectify it try to understand why he did what he did and ull see its not as bad as you make it sound like.. in fact its not bad at all .. most of it in fact.
men need aspiration .. men need hope. back then there was a lot of fear of the afterlife a lot of questioning, they were dark ages .. to settle the deal how can one appease the heart of men and drive them to the right path of heaven but to promise them that heaven contains their dreams and hopes (back then it was sex and debauchery and blablabla)
its like im telling you now that heaven contains (unlimited internet access with speeds of over 10gb/sec and soccer stadiums the size of mt OLympus and women all dancing to the theme of Mardi gras and lamborghinis and ferraris to choose from as you please) wouldnt you want to be a good boy to go to this heaven !?
To Zack Thiang
If that's not good enough a reason for you to respond or even just look at a less than ten minute video by him...
Then you are the one who is being ignorant and are not being objective at all.
<--- i didnt respond to his article i responded to the comment on the article by ministry
again the video is by David wood, i will not answer the video, no need to why r u using it as a quote, since you want to use the same quotes as him, isnt it easy to just put them here and ill answer them instead of me watchign a whole video of some guy i cant talk to nor answer to pushing quotes !? .
which is given by someone who has studied Islam far longer and far more diligently than both you and I combined.
<-- irrelevant and not taken into account .. i can throw at you the same comment and with no proof.. i have studied islam from man who has studied islam far longer than me, you and the guy who gave you the evidence ;) u see it works both ways ..
oh and yes i wont see another video .. sorry .. dont like videos too much ;)
i wont answer the other things you wrote not out of disrespect but because your boringly still attacking something im not holding on to since it isnt my point .. youre still doing the battle between quran vs bible and its not my point .. i dont care about this battle .. im just pointing out like i did to minoria which im sure she understood it perfectly that im trying to instill the idea of a good analysis of the text whatever book its written in before throwing out quotes like you all did before and miserable failed to accomplish. you keep running in the same circle trying to prove idiotically that the quran said that while the bible didnt thus the bible is better yayyyyy ... what an achievement .. and no one tried to see the other point of view .. thats a shame .. it really is .. maybe thats why the americans are loosing so badly in the middle east and the arab world .. and creating unconsciously more radicalism throughout the region.
To ahmed
إنو ليش شملتنا كلنا وعملتنا مهابيل وأنا صار إلي 3 ايام بØاول اقنع بربهم انهم غلطانين بØÙ‚ مصر والإسلام بشكل عام
Jad said, "enno you just come in the middle of the conversation not readint from the top and give your irrelevant opinion.. okay i respect that but next time read .. "
and then later on, when used the same logic against him, ".. what is your point exactly ?"
So, I guess I should've done the same to you, eh...
What's your point that I merely cut into your 'conversation' later on? Does it somehow nullify my arguments or ability to point out your wrong/mistakes?
I could say the same to you. You who suddenly appeared in this blog... not reading all the previous blog post and somehow, you KNOW that the commenters here are all hate-mongers, anti-Muslims, biased, not learned or never read/analyze/study the Quran or hadiths, other religion, whatever..
(We have some who knows Arabic and have read the Arabic Quran, just fyi)
Still failing to see how you're being wronged here.
Jad said, "because youre too obsessed with being anti-muslim and biased.."
Hahahah! I'd like to see your evidence for ONE statement that I have made throughout any of my comments in this blog post that was anti-Muslim.. Hahaha!
Good luck... maybe while you're at it, you could re-read what I wrote... and more carefully this time.
Jad said, "i never said that what muhammad said was true or correct i only said dont subjectify it try to understand why he did what he did and ull see its not as bad as you make it sound like.."
Before this, Jad was saying:
1- "did the coran mention that !? no .. "
2- "if the muslims .... were to read the Koran themselves they would not find one word about 72 virgins or other than that."
3- "the 72 virgins are in "Hadith" not in the Koran... Geez.. im just repeating myself to you"
4- "oufff heheh where did u get this translation from ?!....... so where did you find virgins in the text ?!"
5- "hahah where r u getting your translation .. "
6- "now heheh by quoting that what you think your proved that its bad to promisse women for man in paradise .. maybe it is .."
Sorry that I'm making you repeat yourself ("for tens of times"). But thank God you did.
Then it makes it harder to misunderstand what you said before, which was NOT what you're saying now...
On another note....
You said at first, "there's no virgins in Quran".... now you say, "understand why Muhammad promised eternal sex in paradise in the Quran".
Let me try to tally up the logic behind your arguments so far:
1 - Only read Quran to know Islam
2 - Only that is of God's
3 - Muhammad made a lot of things up in the Quran for some logical/rational/morally-motivated reasons
Sum those up, you have Muhammad being God... technically.
Way to go summing up a Muslim's beliefs, O knowledgeable one.
Jad said, "its like im telling you now that heaven contains (unlimited internet access with speeds of over 10gb/sec and soccer stadiums the size of mt OLympus and women all dancing to the theme of Mardi gras and lamborghinis and ferraris to choose from as you please) wouldnt you want to be a good boy to go to this heaven !?"
OMG! Internet in heaven! Soccer! WOMEN!! I SO WANNA GO THERE!! ZOMG!!
You are so 'knowledgeable' of the bible indeed, Jad; not because you actually made an example saying there's internet, etc in heaven... but because you don't seem to know the true and only biblical reason those who follow Christ wants to go to heaven.
Please... accept your own advice, and do more studying of the bible...
I'd recommend you Dr. Chuck Missler of Koinonia House Ministry (khouse.org). He's a really good biblical teacher. I've learnt alot about the bible through his many bible studies.
Jad said, "To Zack Thiang"
If you're not sure how to spell my name, please.. 'Zack' is fine enough.
And I forgive you.
Jad said, "...instead of me watchign a whole video of some guy i cant talk to nor answer to pushing quotes !? ."
Hahaha! For all you know, David Wood himself is the one approving your comments, Jad.
Jad said, "irrelevant and not taken into account .. i can throw at you the same comment and with no proof.."
How about we put it to the test and see whether I was untruthful or making an exaggerated statement... How long have your studied Islam for and how diligently? And that includes the Quran, the different translation versions, the manymany Hadiths and other Islamic literatures, the history of Islam from birth til the recent centuries, the history of Muhammad, the history of those around Muhammad at that time, the history of the Islamic literatures (Quran, hadiths, etc), and Islamic archaelogical evidences... Think that's enough for this test.
Jad said, "you keep running in the same circle trying to prove idiotically that the quran said that while the bible didnt thus the bible is better "
Wow... you're really bad at reading, are you? So sorry.
Just FYI, never did make such comparison between Quran and Bible as if just the lack of saying something bad/wrong makes one better than the other... never held to such belief/understanding. Can't believe you even think of/conceive such a logic for how a Christian is a Christian.
Well, honestly, I'm glad you have a good conversation with minoria.. Honest.
I'm not one that argues by being condescending or insultive against the person him/herself (can't say the same for you)... I merely enjoy using the words that were said against the person who said it him/herself; hence why you feel like I may have been condescending/insulting towards you.
Throughout my replies to you, I have just been pointing out your wrong/untruthful statements or arguments and inconsistencies (this from after my initial two onwards)... and even pointing out how MANY TIMES you have proven yourself to have not even read carefully other people's comments (which btw, you never apologized for or at least, acknowledged; instead, you just brushed them aside, saying they're irrelevant. I wonder why. =P).
After your replies to my second comment, I found that you weren't honest or even bothering to actually understand what I (and others) have commented.
instead, you so so so misinterpreted them and often never actually answer them..
Honest to God, my first two comments were genuine comments with regards to what you have said earlier. Instead, I was met with ignorance, condescension and no answers to any of the questions asked.
So, I lost interest in what you have to say or were trying to say, and merely focused on your inconsistencies and applying what Jesus said, "Judge not, lest you be judged by the same measure"..
plus you don't stick to what you said earlier anyways. Your inconsistency is rather obvious.
Jad said, "i wont answer the other things you wrote not out of disrespect but because your boringly still attacking something im not holding on to since it isnt my point .."
I'm actually want to know about this one...
"if you can accept the writings (i.e. OT, NT) of normal people (albeit godly people)... Why can't you accept the writings of normal people (who even believes the same God who inspired the writings of those earlier writers) that wrote in a later time?"
I believe you made it very clear that you accept the bible because it was of God. Regardless whether it was your point or not, I am asking you a question.
Don't feel comfortable answering it?
Sorry jad. I read what u have wrote before I wrote my comment, and of course I am not meaning you. I think the idiots know themselves.
errrr@JAD
@JAD
there are believe it or not diff translations of the koran,but going by yours i still dont see your point,
BY YOURS.... YOU ARE STILL PROMISED WOMEN
what is your point????
oh and check the virgin ref from your own quran.com
http://quran.com/55/70-77
are you admitting your wrong yet??
heher
Guys, Jad is trying to let'chall know that both bible and quran is incomplete. There'r flaws and contradiction within and all due are man written. BUT baseline of these books are to guide humanity.
IF you strongly believe you'll be led to haven due to strong believe in Christianity, then you are wrong!
IF you strongly believe you'll be led to 72 virgins due to strong believe in Islam, then you are wrong AGAIN!
These books were written with promises just because during these times, humans are NOT intelligent (please make Socrates, Aristotle, Galileo exceptional cas I en't mention "all humans" do I make myself clear?). And with these promises, it made humans to be obedient, follow the system of Christianity or Islam.
So, why make argument on Christianity or Islam? Zack and PYEM are die-hard christians. Jad is just being nutral, knowing of the pros and cons on both religion. I see no point of showing mistakes of Jad cas it does not contribute to his point.
Let me tell you all. Nothing in this world is fixed. As you can see, books like physics and chemistry change because of early faults and new editions are to bug fix it. Unlike bible or quran, they are fixed, DEAD! like a history book. It tells us of the things happened in the pass learn from it and achieve new goals from it. NOT becas of 72 virgins or approaching haven. Be realistic!
And try putting yourself on someones shoes, thing from their perspective not yours or your religious perpective. Broaden your mind and see what can't be seen in bible or quran or from yourself. Will indeed fall into a better life. World peace! We just need mutual understanding and respect to achieve that. That's all.
To Ahmed
no worries bro ...
And again congratulations on the revolution from the bottom of my heart.. you made us all proud.. akhiran reg3it Masr Sett el Douniya ;)
To Deep,
pfff.... although i have explained before many many times .. that my point is not to prove that promises of women were not made.. i know they have beeen made and that had a purpose back then.. where hope and faith in god and paradise had been lost because of hunger,poverty and slavery remember these were the first followers of islam, the poor, the enslaved the lost in their faith ... so to restore their faith their hope in eternity in paradise, one must give them somethign to look for ..
and again this is a very important sentence "In them are women limiting [their] glances, untouched before them by man or jinni -" ..
ofcourse the naive and ignorant would limit himself to reading "untouched" and begin his philosophical commentaries on virgins and maidens etc... but look carefully and if you knew arabic you would have read the arabic word of "limiting their glances" .. you think it was put by coincidence back in this text .. i doubt it a lot .
by limiting their glances its meant that these women are women of great respect, who are not there to seduce or be easy targets, these are good women, who do not look up the eyes of men nor do they seek to and thats why they are in heaven, plus who on earth told you you can touch them, if they are there that doesnt mean they are there for you to take. no where was it mentioned that they were easy targets...
dont be hasty in your judgments guys c'mon take your time and read every sentence.. its not a book written by a normal writer... this is a book written in a very and extremely difficult language using extremely hard to understand arabic words .. its not english nor french !!
Umm... QuantumBrainWave, thanks for trying to be neutral.
Although you failed to notice one thing... we mostly started by asking a lot of questions...
It's not our fault that Jad chose not to answer any of them and not allowing us to know better what he actually thinks/understands regarding what we asked..
Another matter, he keeps accusing others of not reading his comments when he himself is at fault of the same (and very blatantly too, i.e. minoria's link, my link)... and I've pointed it out countless times.
If he can't be consistent (or at least apologized for his obvious mistakes), how are we supposed to take what he has to say seriously when he's not taking what we have to say seriously?
QBW, I can fully understand your PoV and why you believe we should all just 'hug and make up' and go towards world peace.
Unfortunately, there's something called prophecy in the bible, which says that there will be attempts to bring world peace and ecumenical-ism (all religions coming together), which unfortunately, is/will be achieved/accomplished by the Evil one who is not of God's but against Him...
and thus, as 'die-hard' Christians, we can't ignore what has been written in the bible (which we believe to be inspired Word of God, of which God promised to preserve throughout time; which we believe with much evidence that He has done just that)..
BTW, FYI, I have also pointed out a few times that Jad doesn't seem to know the bible as well as he claimed he does. He never responded nor clarified/corrected himself, so I am unable to change my stance on his knowledge of the bible.
With that said, thus, I wouldn't be able to accept his claim that the bible is incomplete, even if I wanted to.
Same goes with the Quran. He failed to address the issue of the 'there is no virgins ever promised in paradise in the Quran' (i.e. as pointed out by deep).
which says that there will be attempts to bring world peace and ecumenical-ism (all religions coming together), which unfortunately, is/will be achieved/accomplished by the Evil one who is not of God's but against H<----DAMNNN YOU CAUGHT ME LITTLE ONE ..I AM THE ANTI-CHRIST.. you saved humanity .. ure the hero of mankind and now let me go and rot in hell .. pffff... stop being so stubborn, nobody is trying to change anything, its a point of view and were only trying to discuss, im not interessted in converting or unconverting you were just discussing...u are so tensed... where do u live Tiang !?
He failed to address the issue of the 'there is no virgins ever promised in paradise in the Quran' (i.e. as pointed out by deep).
<--- heheheh sure Tiang if it pleases you that i failed...then youre correct, dont be sad.... but it seems everyone has understood my point but you .. its you my little friend who refuses to unblock his stubborness to understand that i am on neither side and i am simply trying to show the cards of both books with no prejudice on any one of them ..
To QuantumBrainWave
My point Exactly ...
These books were written with promises just because during these times, humans are NOT intelligent <---- absolutely they were lacking a civilized and coherent way of living and their behavioral pattern was directed by fear of the unknown and fear of the greater force which is God but didnt understand why and didnt want to understand..
Will indeed fall into a better life. World peace! We just need mutual understanding and respect to achieve that. That's all.
<--- i second that and that was exactly my point ...
Thank you QuantumBrainWave for reading and understanding my point.. really :)
Jad said,
but it seems everyone has understood my point but you
You had a point?
Hello Jad:
I once read a book by a JEWISH JOURNALIST and she was also American who went to live with the Evangelical Christians for 1 year to write a book.
OK,in her book she wrote something like:
"As an unbeliever I would have to be killed since in Mosaic Law the punishment is death"(I am paraphrasing a bit).
BASIC JUDAISM
Remember,she was JEWISH and a JOURNALIST(she had to have INVESTIGATED).
In Judaism MOSAIC LAW is NEVER for NON-JEWS(not even Christians).
BASIC CHRISTIANITY
In the NT it is written that there is a NEW ALLIANCE and it is not Mosaic Law.
Christians are NOT under MOSAIC LAW,never have been,it is basic Christian doctrine.So that woman was a POOR JOURNALIST.
In your case you are not a journalist and have no obligation to read every detail,but in hers she had to know basics.
I only point it out because of your comment:
"here you disappoint me regarding the pork and the wine, the non muslim marriage etc..
Leviticus 11:7-8 <-- read it regarding Christianity forbidding us to eat pork ;)"
SHABIR ALLY
In a debate with JAY SMITH he said that since Christians believe in the OT then they would have to aprove of death for apostates since it is in MOSAIC LAW.
ALLY surely knows BASIC CHRISTIANITY,so he was using misinformation.
A NEW ARTICLE I WROTE under the name Esperanto:
It is about EGYPT and its PHARAOH:
"Pharaoh in the Koran:
about a So-Called Historical Miracle and about an Undeniable Historical Error",
in antisharia.com
http://www.antisharia.com/2011/02/20/pharaoh-in-the-koranabout-a-so-called-historical-miracle-and-about-an-undeniable-historical-error/
Jad said, "DAMNNN YOU CAUGHT ME LITTLE ONE ..I AM THE ANTI-CHRIST.. you saved humanity .. ure the hero of mankind and now let me go and rot in hell .. pffff... stop being so stubborn"
How about you stop misinterpreting my sentences, Jad?
How about you re-read my sentence and explain to me how I'm trying to save the world? Hm?
And how about you stop reading INTO my words and explain to me in what way does my sentence accuse you as the anti-christ or the Evil one? As they would say where I'm from... 'Perasan'
Jad, sir, I honestly have gotten tired of your inability to make proper discussion with me, despite my effort (at least, initial) to do just that.
Jad said, "heheheh sure Tiang if it pleases you that i failed...then youre correct, dont be sad.... "
In case you didn't realize... my that last comment was made before your 'response' to that issue was FINALLY made and then approved.
Regardless, I still think you didn't really address the issue.
The initial impression you gave us in the beginning was that you firmly believe 'there are no virgins promised in the Quran' (your explanation of 'untouched' and 'limiting their glances' is funny, I find, cause it sounds to me you are saying these are actually virgins), which also gave us, or at least me, the impression that you disagree there's ever any promise of eternal sex in paradise (not my fault you never explain that clearly a lot sooner, which you could've if you had just answered the questions a lot earlier; and you still seem to be taking that understanding/belief anyways, based on your that response).
And as I explained before, what's the appeal of having lots of BFFs who are female in paradise? Isn't four wives (or even just ONE) good enough company?
Why does Allah have to specially create fine, respectful women in paradise and for the Muslim martyrs? You mean real-human Muslim ladies are not fine and respectful enough that Allah has to create perfect one in paradise?
How about you start answering my questions nicely and without being condescending and misinterpreting and NOT reading carefully?
On another note, you still haven't admit to your previous blatant mistakes (with regards to your many times blatantly not understanding/reading my replies and others and thus, replying incorrectly; like for example, minoria's link, my questions, etc)... so, I find it hard to take you seriously for that. (And in case you are wondering... yes, I'm serious about that)
Jad,
It's great that you have another commenter who is supportive of you here... Then you won't feel overwhelmed by the many more commenters here who may not take your side as gladly (as many previous commenters have felt before)
However, since you're not a bible-believing Christian, and our other friend, QBW, isn't a Christian in the first place.. I'll gladly remain 'stubborn' for I know the bible (just like you claim you know yours) and place my priority on the Word of God... if you even know what 'Word of God' means for a bible-believing Christian (i.e. it doesn't mean only one thing/object).
Jad said, "im not interessted in converting or unconverting you were just discussing...u are so tensed..."
Just noticed that... Neither am I.
And if you have read my replies carefully long ago... we could've just been focusing on discussing...
But instead, I was met with so much ignorance, wrongful understanding (of what I said/referred to), and finally no answers.
Yeah, take your own advice and actually read. Stop looking at the speck in my eye and take out the plank in yours first.
To Zack Tiang
the koran did promisse women and not for martyrs for every living man. but he described them as pure and not aiming to lure men, so basically not women of pleasure.
you ask me what for !? why did he promisse women?
i answered that, you have to put yourself in their times first to understand.
these people were people who had lost hope in all religions, they were poor and helpless and thats why they joined islam, they needed hope in a time of dispair from religion,god,paradise etc... they were commiting crimes for the fun of it since they no longer believed in retribution and thus in paradise also.
so to restore this faith one must lure them into paradise, so this is what had been done. the idea of women in paradise, and food and wine etc.. was a way of luring them to "be good" to join this "paradise" ...
again dont focus on the women issue, who cares, youre so attached to it and it means nothing. just try to understand why it was made and give it the same importance as the wine or the fruit, since no where was it written that these women were made for these men, or for them to enjoy them if they desired.
remember in a time of darkness, people who have no religion, who are despaired who commit crime with no remorse who believe that their lives and deeds end on this earth and thus they should enjoy it even on the expense of others. you can just come with a religion (islam) and tell them follow me im better.. you have to give them your own vision of this religion what it represents, what it offers you, what are her terms.. etc..
To minroia
please correct me if im wrong but your aim was to tell me that we should not take the OT as a reference for proving christian beliefs or traditions or commandments ?.
(who is shabbir ally ? never heard of him.. again i ask of you let us not quote people who are not present in our discussion regardless of their aspiration or religious background or beliefs)
Well, guys, lets say you have proven Jad's mistake and corrected him, will that be a big contribution?
If you all are able to stand in the frontline and convince the same thing to the al-Qaeda group, then that would be something great to achieve :)
Look at a bigger picture, discussing these whether or not who is in mistake of interpreting the book brings no purpose but only to flame each other's wrong. Base line is, we live as a proper being and contribute what is supposed to be to the world.
Let there be world peace achieved by follower of God or against God makes no different. Cas baseline is wad had been achieve is already being achieved as long as is for good purpose.
Hello Jad:
You said:
"please correct me if im wrong but your aim was to tell me that we should not take the OT as a reference for proving christian beliefs or traditions or commandments ?."
In a way yes because:
1.Christians are NOT under MOSAIC LAW.
2.Even if Mosaic Law were considered by Christians something that had to be obligatorily observed the OT says it is only for the Jewish people,so Christians would say:"It is not for us."
3.However the NT says to observe 9 of the 613 laws in Mosaic law.Those are the ones for us.Like dont steal,murder,blaspheme,etc.And the Sabbath is not one of the 9.
4.The OT has much that is:
DESCRIPTIVE,and NOT PRESCRIPTIVE.
PRESCRIPTIVE:it means it is a UNIVERSAL ORDER for all time.
DESCRIPTIVE:it is a description of an order that was for only and only one event.
Example:the war against the Canaanites.
No Christian would say:"Let us fight the Irakis following the OT order to fight the Cananites."
BASIC CHRISTIAN BELIEF
Someone might say:"Suppose a Christian said God spoke to him and said:"KILL X PERSON."He would have to do it."
I have heard that argument.It shows lack of knowledge of BASIC Christianity because:
1.The FINAL REVELATION is the NT,again it's the FINAL revelation.
2.Christians believe that BAD SPIRITS can appear pretending to be good.Like one pretending to be GOD and saying to KILL X PERSON.
3.HOW to tell the DIFFERENCE?Basics,easy,check the NT,the FINAL revelation,nowhere does it say:"Kill X person because he is against Christianity."
Hello Jad:
You said:
"please correct me if im wrong but your aim was to tell me that we should not take the OT as a reference for proving christian beliefs or traditions or commandments ?."
In a way yes because:
1.Christians are NOT under MOSAIC LAW.
2.Even if Mosaic Law were considered by Christians something that had to be obligatorily observed the OT says it is only for the Jewish people,so Christians would say:"It is not for us."
3.However the NT says to observe 9 of the 613 laws in Mosaic law.Those are the ones for us.Like dont steal,murder,blaspheme,etc.And the Sabbath is not one of the 9.
4.The OT has much that is:
DESCRIPTIVE,and NOT PRESCRIPTIVE.
PRESCRIPTIVE:it means it is a UNIVERSAL ORDER for all time.
DESCRIPTIVE:it is a description of an order that was for only and only one event.
Example:the war against the Canaanites.
No Christian would say:"Let us fight the Irakis following the OT order to fight the Cananites."
BASIC CHRISTIAN BELIEF
Someone might say:"Suppose a Christian said God spoke to him and said:"KILL X PERSON."He would have to do it."
I have heard that argument.It shows lack of knowledge of BASIC Christianity because:
1.The FINAL REVELATION is the NT,again it's the FINAL revelation.
2.Christians believe that BAD SPIRITS can appear pretending to be good.Like one pretending to be GOD and saying to KILL X PERSON.
3.HOW to tell the DIFFERENCE?Basics,easy,check the NT,the FINAL revelation,nowhere does it say:"Kill X person because he is against Christianity."
Jad,
"again i ask of you let us not quote people who are not present in our discussion regardless of their aspiration or religious background or beliefs.."
I just have to say this...
To follow your 'appeal', then we shall have to forgo the bible.. forgo the Quran... forgo every book or literature that you know or read... because to talk about anything from them would be quoting "people who are not present in our discussion, regardless of their aspiration or religious background or beliefs"..
Except your own personal writings... but then, if your writings is about the bible or Quran or any other literature, those, I guess, have to be avoided as well...
So, in the end, you're calling us to quote out of nothing but whatever that is originally from our thoughts and imaginations...
Just had to bring up the logic of your 'appeal', which I find to be getting more and more absurdly restrictive as you keep trying to enforce it.
As if you can go to court and have the murderer say, 'Do not quote whatever was ever said by the murdered victim, because he/she is not here to discuss with us.'
"i answered that, you have to put yourself in their times first to understand. "
Oh... that was your response to my question? Sorry, failed to realize that, cause I didn't see it as answering my question.
I asked, what's the appeal to the people... not what's the reason he came up with this idea.
Muhammad already allowed four wives.. yet there are more women awaiting them in paradise... ok, maybe not to give pleasure, but to just serve them... and pamper them...
What's the appeal? If I have four wives who I loved enough to marry, I would find it pointless for anyone to offer me many female servants to serve my house or me... cause I already have four women that I love and of which I enjoy their company... just give me a place to be with them.
Then what about the ladies? Do they get a 'harem' of fine, respectful men, who'll serve them? In case you do say that is so, I'd like some references from the Quran. It'd be very helpful.
PS: Actually, I'd like your references for your other claims so far, as well:
1 - "these people were people who had lost hope in all religions, they were poor and helpless and thats why they joined islam" - where'd you get this background/history of the people during Muhammad's time? And how true/accurate is it?
2 - "the koran did promisse women and not for martyrs for every living man." - for all living man? Does that mean a non-Muslim like you and I too? What do you mean? And references please.
3 - "you can just come with a religion (islam) and tell them follow me im better.. you have to give them your own vision of this religion what it represents, what it offers you, what are her terms.. etc.." - Sounds to me a lot of 'Jad' talking... Aside from your appeal to only self-rationality and logic, why should I accept your interpretation of what Muhammad was doing? How about some citations to prove that what you say is indeed what was done by Muhammad?
You as a lawyer, would surely understand the importance of proofs and evidences, instead of merely the words of the lawyer himself (who is not the witness, nor the researcher or investigator).
PPS: "just try to understand why it was made and give it the same importance as the wine or the fruit"
Similar to "Just try to understand why it was written that Adam and Eve sinned and were thrown out of Eden"...
How about it's because it's the truth?
If what is being written is actually of God's, then it must therefore be true and needs to be taken seriously. (this is an Omnipresent, Omniscient, Omnipotent being we're talking about here)
It also goes without saying that, if you take some parts of the bible as true, therefore you have to accept the rest as true, otherwise how can you know which part is truly from God and which is man-made?
(Identifying mistakes in the bible, often times error in translations or interpretations, is a different matter from accepting the whole bible as true and of God's)
QuantumBrainWave,
"Well, guys, lets say you have proven Jad's mistake and corrected him, will that be a big contribution?"
Well, it'd be a good start towards an honest and modest discussion where both sides can admit their mistakes and speak as individuals with equal rights and say.
"Base line is, we live as a proper being and contribute what is supposed to be to the world."
Ok, sure. Love to "live as a proper being".. Please tell us a standard to being "a proper being"...
And no, your opinion of what's good and bad is not a standard...
No, a little bit of every/some/most religious book you know/heard of is not a standard...
No, majority opinion is not a standard...
No, history of what has been beneficial and what has not is not a standard..
No, me following my religion, him his own, you another is not a standard..
Please, I'd like to know what would make a standard of being 'a proper being'.
"Let there be world peace achieved by follower of God or against God makes no different. Cas baseline is wad had been achieve is already being achieved as long as is for good purpose."
What determines something as "for good purpose"?
Again, I'd like to know by what standard is something called/considered 'good'?
And in case you may not understand what I mean... a standard should be something that is unquestionable and is equally true/applicable for anyone and everyone no matter who or when or where, and cannot be changed regardless of who likes it or not.
Please share with us.
To Minoria
DESCRIPTIVE,and NOT PRESCRIPTIVE.
PRESCRIPTIVE:it means it is a UNIVERSAL ORDER for all time.
DESCRIPTIVE:it is a description of an order that was for only and only one event.
<---- i agree .nothing to argue i even would like to add that the coming of Jesus IMHO was to rectify or lets say evolve the OT to the NT... to continue the work of the OT into the NT..
so Minoria im with you, nothing to argue about, its my point of view regarding christianity :)
To Zack Tiang
I just have to say this...
To follow your 'appeal', then we shall have to forgo the bible.. forgo the Quran... forgo every book or literature that you know or read... because to talk about anything from them would be quoting "people who are not present in our discussion, regardless of their aspiration or religious background or beliefs"..
<---- ure tiring Zack u just like to argue for the love of arguing ...dont be so tightheaded or else you ll bore us all.. what i said was that dont quote people, living people with their personal opinions and analysis.. you have a brain and you have a mouth and you have hands, forget about others whomever they are famous or not, and quote your own brain and translate it into writings over here.
Muhammad already allowed four wives.. yet there are more women awaiting them in paradise... ok, maybe not to give pleasure, but to just serve them... and pamper them...
<--- when u die you dont take your wives.. when you go to heaven you may need to remarry as mentioned in the surrah, the problem is that the arabic quran says "azwaj" while the english quran says maidens.. which is wrong since azwaj means married so these women are in heaven for you to marry them not fornicate with them.
Then what about the ladies? Do they get a 'harem' of fine, respectful men, who'll serve them? <--- yes they do . (surrah 33:35 / surrah 39:34 )
where'd you get this background/history of the people during Muhammad's time? And how true/accurate is it?
<--- common knowledge 100% accurate.. if you want something a bit multimedia wise go see "the message" its a movie regarded as a true depiction of islam since it was approved by the high sunnite council and the high shiite council and Lebanese shiites accepted it so its the only official movie to be accepted by islam on the life of muhammed..its not enough it lacks many other details but it should be enough for you .
the koran did promisse women and not for martyrs for every living man." - for all living man? Does that mean a non-Muslim like you and I too? What do you mean? And references please.
<----Surah 4:194 / Surah 16:97 and many more but im bored of searching things i already explained. and again your putting me in a line of defence of islam and its not my point nor my objective.
why should I accept your interpretation of what Muhammad was doing? How about some citations to prove that what you say is indeed what was done by Muhammad?<---- dont accept it, again not my objective or my aim.. and i dont care about what muhamad said. im not here to defend the guy im only talking about the book that was allegedly sent to him.. talk to me about the book not about the man who was a vessel to write a book.
If what is being written is actually of God's, then it must therefore be true and needs to be taken seriously. (this is an Omnipresent, Omniscient, Omnipotent being we're talking about here)
<---- yes and who said otherwise.. i just said treat the women issue with the same importance as the wine and the fruit .(remember in islam wine is forbidden but in heaven it was permitted so why didnt u argue with me about that ?)
if you take some parts of the bible as true, therefore you have to accept the rest as true, otherwise how can you know which part is truly from God and which is man-made?
<--- so considering your way of thinking you take the OT as true.. right ?! all its details are true ?
Jad said, "ure tiring Zack u just like to argue for the love of arguing .."
Or I could just be saying for the sake of giving an opinion.
So, only quote people who are dead? But not alive, except ourselves? How fair.
Can't just accept a person's quoting someone else as though the person himself spoke it? Does it not make sense the reason why he quoted that someone was that he agreed to that someone to some extent and thought it a good point to bring up?
It also gives some weight to the argument as not just something one thought of out of his head.
Then depending on the someone that is being quoted, you can judge whether the source of the information being quoted is reliable or just some raving man with prejudice and no research.
If you don't like quoting other people, that's fine. But don't limit others with your preference as if you have some sort of authority to who we can quote or what we can say to make a point.
Jad said, "when u die you dont take your wives.. when you go to heaven you may need to remarry as mentioned in the surrah"
I'm not familiar with every verse or surah that is in the Quran... So it'd be helpful for me to have a reference to look it up myself, instead of just taking your word for it.
Jad said, "yes they do . (surrah 33:35 / surrah 39:34 )"
I looked up the verses, it mentions 'great reward'... for both good Muslim men and women..
Why are there clear surahs talking about women in paradise, and yet none regarding the opposite?
Looks more like you're reading INTO the text there..
You'd think that Allah or Muhammad would just thought to add, "Oh, btw, there are men for the ladies too."
Jad said, "common knowledge 100% accurate.. if you want something a bit multimedia wise go see "the message" its a movie regarded as a true depiction of islam since it was approved by the high sunnite council and the high shiite council"
Wow... I asked for supporting evidences, and I get a movie...
So, Da Vinci Code is confirmed a fraud solely because the churches and even the Vatican highly disapprove with the movie then?
Sorry... not convincing evidence.
Jad said, "dont accept it, again not my objective or my aim.. and i dont care about what muhamad said. im not here to defend the guy im only talking about the book that was allegedly sent to him.. talk to me about the book not about the man who was a vessel to write a book."
Interesting logic...
Jad, "You need to think like Muhammad during that time."
Zack, "Why should I accept what you say that that was indeed how Muhammad thought at the time?"
Jad, "Don't accept it. Not my objective."
Zack, (=_=")
And I'm not calling you to defend Islam.. I'm calling you to defend what you claimed so far. Talk about misinterpreting or misunderstanding.. Can't you even comprehend the simple idea that you said this, I respond to that which you've said, and thus you need to clarify further?
Jad said, "yes and who said otherwise.. i just said treat the women issue with the same importance as the wine and the fruit .(remember in islam wine is forbidden but in heaven it was permitted so why didnt u argue with me about that ?)"
Oh? you wanted to defend Islam regarding that issue? I'm sorry I disappointed you.
Jad said, "so considering your way of thinking you take the OT as true.. right ?! all its details are true ?"
Already clarified, "(Identifying mistakes in the bible, often times error in translations or interpretations, is a different matter from accepting the whole bible as true and of God's)"
Fallible men wrote and copied and passed down the OT. Scholars are able to identify what were most probably wrongly translated or copied (with supporting evidence).. but yet, the overall message remains intact and practically the same throughout the milleniums...
As a lawyer, you can accept the testimony of a witness as true, even though some details may be wrong, right? Especially if the details are either minor (i.e. the time of event, color of culprit's clothing, the exact words said by whoever, number of people at the scene) or the error in detail doesn't effect the significance of the testimony.
To Zack
Jad, "You need to think like Muhammad during that time."<--- never said like mohammad.. i said think like them.. i never said i believe mohammad wrote the book or if he did was the true author
Talk about misinterpreting or misunderstanding<--- hehehe exactly.. watch yourself
Oh? you wanted to defend Islam regarding that issue? I'm sorry I disappointed you<---- i can ..easily.. snce wine of the heavens doesnt intoxicate the body or brain its what is called "white wine of heaven".. you enjoy its taste but not its side effects.
Identifying mistakes in the bible, often times error in translations or interpretations, is a different matter from accepting the whole bible as true and of God's<-- hahhahhahah even if its chapters and chapters and nonsenses and whole concepts that are wrong .. were not talking about simple misinterpretations or time errors, were talking about huge errors and insignificant details or stories that only ineducated people would believe ..
As a lawyer, you can accept the testimony of a witness as true, even though some details may be wrong, right<--- ofcourse but not if the details form the whole juice of the story ... a witness cant tell me he witnessed a crime that happened in the 6th floor of a building from the outside of the window because he was on his flying carpet when it happened ... it doesnt work that way...
I'm not familiar with every verse or surah that is in the Quran... So it'd be helpful for me to have a reference to look it up myself, instead of just taking your word for it.
<--- not my job and not my interest i gave enough to prove youre misinterpreations and prejudice towards the book. i rest my case and if youre that interested go search for yourself.
I looked up the verses, it mentions 'great reward'... for both good Muslim men and women..
Why are there clear surahs talking about women in paradise, and yet none regarding the opposite?
<--- r u being dull and naive on purpose !? or is it you !? ... the verses tell the women they can ask for whatever they want ... so if they want men or wine or fruits or whatever they can ask theres no difference between anyone...
but specifications of women for men were made i told you to incite them to be good to go to heavens.. women wouldnt b interested in going to heaven if you told them there were men up there.. women dont think like we do, theyre more complicated, you wouldnt attract a women to a place if you told her there are plenty of men there for you to choose from, whilst all men are attracted by that fact...
Wow... I asked for supporting evidences, and I get a movie...
<-- yes the movie is enough .. all islamic councils both shiites and sunnits even the ones from lebanon accpeted it and usually theyre too tacky and picky on movies related to mohammad since its not allowed..
Da Vinci Code <--- pffff youre boring .. da vinci code doesnt talk about incidents of the bible, it brings new details and new informations to the already known facts... whilst the message doesnt add anything it just interprets the life of mohammad as narrated in the quran in a movie ...
how old are you zack !?
OK, Zack. This is the thing I personally want to tell you. In this world not everything goes by the book. All your arguments given are base on what you've read and understand thoroughly.
Given you a condition, out from the bible or quran. You are an orphan, you stay alone by yourself at the backstreet. The only way you could survive is to steal fish and fruits from the market.The only purpose is to survive. (Mind that you have no money and not educated what would you choose? To steal or not to steal?)
One thing I agree on what Jad mentioned, you only argue just for the fun of it. Though yes you do provide good opinion base on your knowledge but it still do no contribution. Also, as you said, discuss for the sake of accepting mistake and with the equal rights of speech and then? does it do any changes? This type of argument is just between you and Jad. Only either of you might change your opinion which Jad might agree with what you've said at the end that's all.
One more thing, every individual have their own opinion and would contradict with others. This is normal cas we are all just humans. But, what you want is others to "uhm, yes... yes.. you are exactly correct!". So, still the point of this argument is still useless.
And of all, I'm here just to make you all realize what you're trying to achieve here is meaningless like a flock of ducks quacking to a herd of cows. (Joke ALERT: Maybe the cow would end up quacking too)
Lastly, I don't hope everyone to be like me. I just hope everyone would be willing to set your foot into others shoe and think why do they think differently to yours, analyse it not base on bible or quran but own common sense. Then, you'd have mutual understanding. We are all adults here, what is mistake, what is not, we know it or by you pointing out (if you were correct). Just hold on to the code of mutual respect, that is very important. We are humans by all means. Am done here.
Hello Jad:
I am glad some of my information was of help.Knowledge is Power,as the sayng goes.
Several times new information changed my view almost 100%,like:
The Way several OT Passages are written tells us:
the Name of the Messiah will be Yeshua(Jesus)
http://www.avraidire.com/2010/04/the-old-testament-says-the-messiahs-name-is-yeshua-jesus/
Jad said, "never said like mohammad.. i said think like them.. i never said i believe mohammad wrote the book or if he did was the true author "
Doesn't resolve the issue that you changed your mind later; i.e. Jad, "Don't accept it. Not my objective."
Jad said, "i can ..easily.. snce wine of the heavens doesnt intoxicate the body or brain its what is called "white wine of heaven".. you enjoy its taste but not its side effects."
You don't want to defend Islam...
You want to defend Islam...
I just can't keep up with you!!
Jad said, "even if its chapters and chapters and nonsenses and whole concepts that are wrong .. were not talking about simple misinterpretations or time errors, were talking about huge errors and insignificant details or stories that only ineducated people would believe .."
Oh yeah, sure. You'd believe that. Proofs and evidences, please. Thank you.
Jad said, "ofcourse but not if the details form the whole juice of the story ..."
I already said, "Especially if the details are either minor (i.e. the time of event, color of culprit's clothing, the exact words said by whoever, number of people at the scene) or the error in detail doesn't effect the significance of the testimony. "
Jad said, "not my job and not my interest i gave enough to prove youre misinterpreations and prejudice towards the book. i rest my case and if youre that interested go search for yourself."
Oh yes, you sure gave me an avalanche of proofs/references for every claim you made so far, including a movie even.
Jad said, "the verses tell the women they can ask for whatever they want ... so if they want men or wine or fruits or whatever they can ask theres no difference between anyone...
but specifications of women for men were made i told you to incite them to be good to go to heavens.."
Still means you're reading INTO the text.
It didn't promise women a harem of men.... at least, not all of them... whereas "the koran did promisse women and not for martyrs for every living man."
Jad said, "yes the movie is enough .. all islamic councils both shiites and sunnits even the ones from lebanon accpeted it and usually theyre too tacky and picky on movies related to mohammad since its not allowed.."
And the Passion of Christ by Mel Gibson is true and accurate because many Christian organizations, both Catholic and non-Catholics, approve this movie.
And yet, no one seems to be convinced Jesus was even a real historical person.
Still can't accept your 'evidence'.
Just a thought, have you ever used a movie [of any kind] as supporting evidence in your court cases based on the story and depictions of the movie's setting, Jad?
Jad said, "whilst the message doesnt add anything it just interprets the life of mohammad as narrated in the quran in a movie ..."
So does the movie Gospel of John, yet no one ever accepts a movie as evidence.
Jad,
For a moment, I thought you were finally able to make proper discussion. But then you reverted back to your 'I'm smarter than you' attitude.
And you still never apologize or even at least acknowledge your blatant mistakes before.
Since you're not interested in an honest discussion... I shall do the same then.
QBW said, "OK, Zack. This is the thing I personally want to tell you. In this world not everything goes by the book. All your arguments given are base on what you've read and understand thoroughly."
And all your arguments are based on your own thinking, logic, rationale and imagination?
You didn't answer my simple request though..
"Please, I'd like to know what would make a standard of being 'a proper being'."
One would think you, who asks us to live as 'proper beings', would have some sort of standard that you follow or use to determine 'a proper being'.
QBW said, "Given you a condition, out from the bible or quran. You are an orphan, you stay alone by yourself at the backstreet........."
With that sort of question, then you haven't understood the bible, at least not the second part of it, the New Testament.
We are all sinners (in one way or another; small or big) and we all can't enter the perfect and sin-free Heaven because of that; that's our punishment, banishment from the presence of God. And the only realm that God is not present is hell..
But God has already paid in full the penalty of our sins through the innocent blood of Christ spilled on the cross, so that we may be free from the bonds of our sins and be called righteous on the Day of Judgment.
God has already made the way.
Ephesians 2:8-9, "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."
QBW said, "One thing I agree on what Jad mentioned, you only argue just for the fun of it."
Oh yeah... getting to the bottom of someone's claim is fun, especially when the guy just keeps avoiding and evading your questions.
QBW said, "One more thing, every individual have their own opinion and would contradict with others. This is normal cas we are all just humans. But, what you want is others to "uhm, yes... yes.. you are exactly correct!". So, still the point of this argument is still useless."
Please point to me where I did such, demanding Jad to agree with what I said. All I did was state what I've learned/known and challenge Jad's claims; i.e. no virgins in paradise promised in Quran (which he failed to back up, btw... since he then later said they're fine, respectful women who will be married to the men in paradise... You'd assume respectful women awaiting marriage would have never experience intercourse, hence 'fine & respectful').
QBW said, "And of all, I'm here just to make you all realize what you're trying to achieve here is meaningless like a flock of ducks quacking to a herd of cows."
Meaningless? This coming from someone who has yet to explain what standard we can follow to determine 'a proper being'.
What defines your 'meaningless'?
QBW said, "I just hope everyone would be willing to set your foot into others shoe and think why do they think differently to yours, analyse it not base on bible or quran but own common sense. Then, you'd have mutual understanding."
Isn't that the whole idea of 'questions and answers'? To get to know more about the other person's claims by asking questions. Or through putting forth a contrary evidence/information.
If Jad would've done that, we would have had 'mutual understanding'... or at least, a better one.
To Zack
to be able to go into thorough understanding of both books, you have to have read both.
to be able to go through thorough understanding of both religions you have to have lived at least enough on this land to have known, experienced and felt both religions.
bottom line i doubt you had to do both thus my little friend i believe youre still too young and inexperienced to be having such discussions, since you cant grasp the fact that sometimes you can be wrong and what daddy and mommy taught can be reversed at some point and may be altered plus the fact that not all discussions end up by one side winning, sometimes its not a war of words but rather a commitment to better understand the other rather than try our best to find the errors in him or his philosophy.
take your time zack in this earth and learn as much as you can before entering into discussions on these topics for going from your answer either to me or to QuantumBrainwave clearly you lack a lot of expertise and knowledge .
and all that i tell you with all due respect to your young age and is for your own good believe me.
now go sleep its past your bedtime ;)
Jad said, "bottom line i doubt you had to do both thus my little friend i believe youre still too young and inexperienced to be having such discussions"
Over and over, Jad just keeps using ad hominem (a grown man/lawyer using such arguments against a supposedly "younger male"/'teenager'(?, I assume he believes I'm that young) )
I'd sure love to hear your 'educated guess' about the part of the world I live in or who my parents are and what they taught me or how old I am or what kind of environment I grew up in or whether I've ever read the Quran or the Bible or lived/mixed with Muslims.
JUST LOVE TO! Would give me something to laugh about with some of my friends who are also reading this blog.
Jad said, "going from your answer either to me or to QuantumBrainwave clearly you lack a lot of expertise and knowledge . "
Oh yeah, sure. This coming from the guy who didn't answer or avoided to answer practically 75% of the questions I asked, or contrary evidences given, and never admit to his own mistakes. (guess I can understand that you, an experienced lawyer, don want to have to admit you did do some mistakes or say some wrong things to 'a teenager'; despite the clear evidences of such)
Jad said, "and all that i tell you with all due respect to your young age and is for your own good believe me.
now go sleep its past your bedtime ;)"
I guess you think my blogger profile is updated? Oh well.
You'd probably call me bluff or something anyways. Haha.
I doubt you can even make a guess of QBW's age, whereas I have a pretty good hunch that I know who QBW is... personally.
Post a Comment