Tuesday, October 20, 2009

The Islamic Slave Trade: The Untold Story

Has anyone noticed that Christians ultimately draw attention to the misdeeds of misled Christians in the past, so that we can deal with them and not repeat them, while Muslims always manage to rewrite history in order to cover up their misdeeds?

The following documentary is in German, but there are English subtitles. (I'm hoping Shadid Lewis stops by to comment.)

PART ONE


PART TWO


PART THREE


PART FOUR


PART FIVE

80 comments:

Paul Guralivu said...

So long with the myth according to whom Islam promote freedom towards slaves.

If we think that Muhammad started his prophethood with 0 slaves and ended it with 36.
Then we understand his image better.

Paul.

Krishnaraj said...

Thanks guys...I do concede my mistake...

David wood...I do concede..You are a great debator too..

But..let me say one thing...If you can debate Zakir Naik...You really could get many people like me to concede to Christianity too.

I know you would say that you have challanged him enough....but that is a true fact.

I know of a few christians who have accepted Islam because of him......

As long as you say that he does not wanna debate you....its not gonna help your mission....because he still will be convincing people that Islam is true.

Thanks David....I really respect you

Hogan Elijah Hagbard said...

The documentary includes the information of the islamic involvement in the black slave trade has been withheld from the public.

I have heard first hand from PhD students here in UK that negative studies on islam such as the black slavery of East Africa is almost forbidden in English universities.
If such studies are permitted the information is typically held within the particlar study circle of the university.

Funny, such suppression of history and truth is not used to cover up attrocities of any other religion or culture than the islamic. Meanwhile the media follows the distorted or inbalanced opinion.

VJ said...

@Krishnaraj

David wood...I do concede..You are a great debator too..

that's obvious,,,hes greater than sami or bassam who are really inconsistent.

But..let me say one thing...If you can debate Zakir Naik...You really could get many people like me to concede to Christianity too.
what is this some kinda challenge?
i guess you very well know that JOKER NAIK oh sorry ZAKIR NAIK will never debate any christian who actually knows how to debate.
and i hope all see that you have just put up that u will concede to Christianity if only zakir debates wood.u didn't mention if he wins or not.

I know of a few christians who have accepted Islam because of him......
did u see how many Muslims converted to Christianity after looking at wood debating?
i bet there would be at least one :)

As long as you say that he does not wanna debate you....its not gonna help your mission....because he still will be convincing people that Islam is true.
Some people are really bound to get lost in the daylight.
so be it.
they never seeked so they will never find

Adam said...

Hi Krishnaraj,

regarding Zakir Naik Debate

Excerpt From Sakshi Apologetic Network In India.
"We recently heard that Dr. Zakir Naik would like to debate with an Indian Christian. We would like to let Dr. Zakir Naik know that Indian Christians though poor and few in number are now ready to debate with Dr. Zakir Naik on any topic that examines both the religions. We, at Sakshi, express our willingness if Dr. Zakir Naik wants an Indian Christian to debate whatever the cost might be. Please let us know if you have contact with Dr. Zakir Naik."

http://www.sakshitimes.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=246&Itemid=42

Forget Bro. David Wood as he lives in USA and it will be too expensive to arrange such debate. Why don’t we tell Zakir Naik to debate Bro Jerry Thomas of Sakshi.
Bro Jerry Thomas has already debate Zakir Naiks Rivals of Daawa business in India.

1) Bro Jerry, debated Mr. Imran of IREF (Islamic research and Education Foundation) Hyderabad India.

http://www.sakshitimes.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=267&Itemid=42

2) Bro Jerry also debate with Mr. Asifuddin Muhammad of IACR (Islamic Academy of Comparative Religions) Bangalore India.

http://www.sakshitimes.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=201&Itemid=43

3) Bro. Jerry was recently was suppose to debate Mr. MM Akbar Niche of Truth, Kerala India. But
Mr. Akbar is evading the debate

http://www.sakshitimes.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=393&Itemid=42

http://www.sakshitimes.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=394&Itemid=42

Osama Abdallah said...

Krishnaraj,

First of all, neither Krishna nor Raj are Muslim names. Both of them a HINDU NAMES.
The reader can visit this link to read about the hindu god, Krishna: http://www.sanatansociety.org/hindu_gods_and_goddesses/krishna.htm.

You are obviously another desperate anti-Islamic snake and liar who is playing games and pretending to be a former Muslim. The funny thing is that YOU ARE TOO DUMB about it.

As to slavery in Islam, there are 100s (hundreds) of Hadiths and Noble Verses that Command the following:

1- Freeing slaves whenever possible.

2- Treating the slaves as your brothers and sisters, AND CLOTH THEM FROM YOUR OWN CLOTHES.

3- End slavery.

The reader can visit: http://www.answering-christianity.com/ac18.htm#links for ample details and proofs.

As to David Wood converting Muslims to the man-made false religion of CONJECTURE as Allah Almighty called the false religion of christianity that in Noble Verse 4:157, we have yet to see a proof for that. On the contrary, this humble servant of Allah Almighty, me, have already converted many former christians to Islam. I even have one of them on my site's authors' list on my site. And the number of Muslims whom this humble servant of Allah Almighty and his team have revived and restored their Faith in Islam and changed them to become FIRM BELIEVERS IN ISLAM are countless! All Praise and Glory and Thanks are due to Allah Almighty Alone and no one else.

I love the fact though that the members on this board are desperate to just find ONE MUSLIM conver to the FALSE RELIGION OF CONJECTURE. This is how desperate you are. We on the other hand are not desperate, and we convert christians to Islam by the thousands everyday, by Allah Almighty's Leave.

Again, all Praise and Glory and Thanks are due to Allah Almighty Alone and no one else.

Osama Abdallah
www.answering-christianity.com

The Fat Man said...

Is it just me or does Krishnaraj kind of sound like Ethsaam Gulam?

Ilena said...

osama u cannot win a debate, let alone convert some1 to ur false religion.
still, i dont deny the possibility that those converts r in fact converts and not ur imaginary friends. anyway this world is full of weirdos.

The Fat Man said...

Ilena I'm begging to think that the woman who convert to islam are teh same type of woman who turn up as groupies to serial killers and mass murder's.

The Fat Man said...

Osama said...

As to slavery in Islam, there are 100s (hundreds) of Hadiths and Noble Verses that Command the following:

Freeing slaves whenever possible.

First what does Whenever Possible mean? Why has more ink been spent on telling muslims how mohamed went to the bathroom and how they should got to the bathroom then on the topic of slavery.

Second I dont know about the hadeeths, but I do know that there is only two verses in the quran taht deal with freeing slaves. Bothh instannce it is a act of repenttence for a muslim and in both instances it is the last option.


Osma also said ....
"Treating the slaves as your brothers and sisters, AND CLOTH THEM FROM YOUR OWN CLOTHES."

Well I think anyone would agree that you have to cloath and feed slaves. It would be pretty foolish to invest money in slave and then have them run around naked and starving.

As far as treating slaves as your own brothers and sisters. All I can say is that I'm glad I was not born in a muslim family if ones siblings are treated like slaves.

Osma Abdullah also said

3- End slavery.

Provce it, show us where islam ends slavery. If thats the case then why was slavery practiced openly into the 20 century, in places like KSA. Why were there still open air slave markets in Muslim controlled Sudan until 1997.Tell us why is slavery still practiced under the table in Islamic controlled Sudan?

Hogan Elijah Hagbard said...

Oh not, Osama Abdallah is not desparate.

That is the joke of the year!!!

minoria said...

I should also add that 80% of the slaves got by the Europeans were SOLD to them by black Africans.And as time went up the Africans asked for a high price.Slavery existed in Africa hundreds of years before the Europeans began it.

Now I know the European slave trade lasted from 1440 till 1850,some 400 years.From 1440 till 1520 there was little commerce.But this shot up from 1520 till 1800.

ENGLAND AND FRANCE

Portugal,Holland,England and France were the countries involved.However France and Holland only began around 1650 because in between opinion there was that it was an evil practice(slavery and slavetrading)...we have documentary evidence.

So those 2 nations engaged in it for 150 years.

MALCOLM X

I often wonder why people consider him to have been intelligent if he willfully ignored(an immoral thing really) and refused to denounced the AFRICAN and MUSLIM responsability for slavery.Is that the position for a moral leader to take?It seems alot more like the actions of a politico.

Krishnaraj said...

Osama. Who ever cares what you think.

ashraf said...

Adam bhai,

i think you didn't see that debate jerry vs imran, otherwise you won't refer his name. if jerry comes to know that you are referring his name to debate with Zakir naik, Jerry will abscond. Imran chopped him in that debate especially in the rebuttal session you can see jerry's amature response and his body language so pls don't put jerry in trouble again brother.

VJ said:
" ZAKIR NAIK will never debate any christian who actually knows how to debate."

do you mean to say Dr.William campbell is a stupid christian scholar?

ashraf said...

Brother Krishnaraj,

please don't say because of Zakir naik many people accepted islam, it's a wrong concept.even Dr.Naik will not accept your comments.It is Allah who gives Hidhaya. You can say like the presentation of Dr.Naik is better than other scholars.

i was surprised when u said Mr.wood is a great debator.

god bless you brother.

The Fat Man said...

I just want to make a comment on slavery. I began my acedmic carer as a History major before I decided to turn my hobby of electronics and computers into a carrer.

I will never forget the first time I heard a African American Proffessor, say these words.

"Slavery is neither right nor wrong, it is neither moral or imoral. It is a economic fact of history"

The first assingment was to list how many slaves we his students currently owned.

I a pot smoking, head banging heavy metal suburbaninte hippy rebel, wrote a large zero on a piece of paper. Completly confident of my A, I was shocked to see the same zero I wrote now highlited in red.

You see we all own slaves, we just replaced Human slaves with electronic and fossil fuel driven mechanical slaves.

This made me realize that societies more often then not will make moral decisons based on economic and political expidancey, instead of making economic and political decisons based on moral convictions.

So what does this have to do with Islam? In Islam the moral compas is the quran and the neddle on that compas points to Mohamed.

In Islam slavery is more then just a economic reality, it is a relegious duty. In the quran the only reason to free a slave is as an act of repentence. For a sin that a muslim has commited against another muslim, and only if the other acts of repentence are to burdensom.

So you can see that even when the economic reasons for slavery are long forgtten, the reason for slavery in islam is still valid. That is why slavery still exists in some islamic societies and in the hearts and minds of muslims.

Osama Abdallah said...

Furthermore,

A slave according to the Noble Quran CAN REQUEST AND EARN his Freedom:


"Let those who find not the wherewithal for marriage keep themselves chaste, until God gives them means out of His grace. AND IF ANY OF YOUR SLAVES ask for a deed in writing (to enable them to earn their freedom for a certain sum), GIVE THEM SUCH A DEED if ye know any good in them: yea, give them something yourselves out of the means which God has given to you. But force not your maids to prostitution when they desire chastity, in order that ye may make a gain in the goods of this life. But if anyone compels them, yet, after such compulsion, is God, Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful (to them), (The Noble Quran, 24:33)"

Islam clearly condemns slavery. A slave not only can request and earn his freedom from his Muslim master, but the Muslim master must also give him money to jump start his life.

Again, for those who wish to come out of the deep ignorance of hate, blasphemy and conjecture that they call "christianity", I invite them to my detailed section about slavery in Islam and the Bible at: http://www.answering-christianity.com/ac18.htm#links.

Osama Abdallah
www.answering-christianity.com

Osama Abdallah said...

A beautiful Hadith (Saying) from Prophet Muhammad, from among many in the link I gave above:

Narrated Abu Musa Al-Ash'ari: "The Prophet said, "Give food to the hungry, pay a visit to the sick and release (set free) the one in captivity (by paying his ransom)." (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Food, Meals, Volume 7, Book 65, Number 286)"

Osama Abdallah
www.answering-christianity.com

leviMichael said...

krishnaraj said:
Osama. Who ever cares what you think.

actually, we care what osama thinks and says...we all need a good laugh most of the time; osama is very good!

osama, i have a question:
who (in ur opinion) is the greatest islamic apologist in the western world today? the one that can defend islam anywhere, anytime any place and against anyone?

Osama Abdallah said...

ONE MIGHT ASK THEN:

Why then did the Muslims have slaves throughout history?

ANSWER:

Great question! The answer is simple. They were not slaves. They were captives of war, and their status was temporal. No slave or a group of slaves had to ever fight their way out to freedom against any Muslim State. I challenge anyone to disprove this statement! All slaves under the Muslims' rule were eventually freed by the Muslims themselves. The slaves in christian Africa, Europe and America, on the other hand, had to face and endure a BLOOD BATH against their former masters in order for them to get their freedom.

HAVE THE USA NOT ENTERED INTO A CIVIL WAR, and had there not been Abraham Lincoln, America would probably still have slaves in it today.

So the bottom line is: Islam is the Divine Truth, Justice and Mercy from Allah Almighty.

Osama Abdallah
www.answering-christianity.com

Royal Son said...

Osama, why do you have to insult everybody?

Osama Abdallah said...

Correction to a previous typo:

THEY WERE NOT SLAVES

reads as

THEY WERE NOT SLAVES in the true sense of enslavement that we know of.... In other words, while you could still technically call them "slaves", but they were never really slaves in the true sense. This is why they all eventually were freed by the Muslims themselves and without any civil war or blood shed, like that that happened in the USA's civil war.

Also, the captives of war are to be treated with kindness as well:

"They perform (their) vows, and they fear a Day Whose evil flies far and wide. AND THEY FEED, FOR THE LOVE OF ALLAH, the indigent, the orphan, AND THE CAPTIVE -- (Saying), 'We feed you For the sake of Allah alone: No reward do we desire from you, nor thanks.' (THE NOBLE QURAN, 76:7-9)"

Please visit: http://www.answering-christianity.com/captives.htm.

Osama Abdallah
www.answering-christianity.com

Hogan Elijah Hagbard said...

It may also be worth noting that the Christians, in particular, were fighting against the slave trade.

I have been told that within the early Christian revival movements in the eighteenth or ninetheenth century any new convert was expected to join the the anti-slavery movement before he was considered a true Christian.

Hogan Elijah Hagbard said...

Krishnaraj, as to Osama Abdallah and his comments on you, I can only say: so much for the muslim ummah.

Fernando said...

Hi guys... I do not know whate Krishnaraj means... I think his talk about becomming a Chistian is not true: I thinke he's jokking...


butt one thingue I can say (withe is authorization): our, now, good brother in Christ, the person formelly known as Abdul Haziz (who wrotte some comments here in this blogg) as recieved the batism and changed is name... he left Marocco for good and is studying to be a priest/pastor... and many because off whate he read on this blessed blogg...

May God help all those who keep it running...

george said...

Dear Krishna raj. I know u r a Muslim and not a convert into Islam.coz INDIAN muslims use less brain when it comes to religion and u showed d very sign. david wood, sam shamoun have asked many times to debate but zakir never accepts that. He only want poor pastors or sri sri ravi shankar. Indian Law doesnt allow a foreigner to do debate in india. You have two choices : ASK ZAKIR TO CHOSE ANY DEBATER HE WISH AND DEBATE IN OUTSIDE INDIA. 2: IF HE IS SCARED THEN LET HIM CHOOSE INDIA CHRISTIAN DEBATER.Sakshi is ready to take all expense if zakir accept challenge. Bro. Jerry Thomas will be from christian side.
Last month our few brother have asked IRF to accept our challenge, later we send mail to IRF and zakir but still now no reply.

if zakir is ur God then beg him to debate and u will see how easly he will b crushed. I ask u to see how many debates he have done and see whether he did a single one with a Christain Apologist.
www.sakshitimes.org

Osama Abdallah said...

"Osama, why do you have to insult everybody?"

I do not insult any particular person on this board or anywhere else, unless he/she deserves it. And my comments are usually backed with facts.

But anyway, quite honestly, Royal Son, I am neither comfortable nor happy about it. It is not me. I also used to have a message posted all over my site that said:

"I LOVE ALL CHRISTIANS AND I HAVE NOTHING AGAISNT THEM."

But all of this changed because of the many christians who constantly insult Islam and Allah Almighty and Prophet Muhammad, by calling them names and insulting them. The intellectual debate quickly vanishes when debating many christians. Now, I grant you, some are great people! Even Allah Almighty in the Glorious Quran Makes this point clear:

1- "And there are, certainly, AMONG THE PEOPLE OF THE BOOK [Jews and Christians], those who believe in God, in the revelation to you, and in the revelation to them, BOWING IN HUMILITY TO GOD: They will not sell the Signs of God for a miserable gain! For them is a reward with their Lord, and God is swift in account. (The Noble Quran, 3:199)"

2- "Not all of them are alike: Of the People of the Book [Jews and Christians] are a portion that stand (For the right): They rehearse the Signs of God all night long, and they prostrate themselves in adoration. They believe in God and the Last Day; they enjoin what is right, and forbid what is wrong; and they hasten (in emulation) in (all) good works: They are in the ranks of the righteous. (The Noble Quran, 3:113-114)"

3- "Of the people of Moses (i.e., the Jews) there is a section who guide and do justice in the light of truth. (The Noble Quran, 7:159)"

4- "Verily, you will find the strongest among men in enmity to the believers (Muslims) the Jews and those who are Al-Mushrikoon (the polytheists), AND YOU WILL FIND NEAREST IN LOVE TO THE BELIEVERS (Muslims) those who say: "We are Christians." That is because amongst them are priests and monks, and they are not proud. (The Noble Quran, 5:82)"

For more details and proofs, please visit: http://www.answering-christianity.com/jesus_followers_prophecy.htm

http://www.answering-christianity.com/blessed_jesus.htm

Sorry for offending you Royal Son. I also apologize for offending other folks here as well.

Regards,
Osama Abdallah
www.answering-christianity.com

minoria said...

Regarding David Wood,I think he is a fine debator.He is balanced in his statements,I heard him in the debate where he said that in fact he liked Mohammed till he was 40,and continued to like him till he was 50,except for a few incidents.It was only the Mohammed of Medina who shocked him,so to speak.That is a balanced analysis of the Muslim leader.Keep up the good work David.And Fernando,I am glad the Muslim you know has accepted Jesus.Tell him to read us to keep strong in the faith.He can also read the Muslim and skeptical websites and compare.

SLAVERY AND THE KORAN

Osama referred to 24:33 where it says to give a slave freedom in essence if "you think he deserves it."That is the idea.

That is STILL accepting the validity of slavery in itself.So there are people who deserve to be slaves,that is the logical conclusion.

BUT WHO?

I do not know if the Koran says it,I doubt it,but Islamic tradition says that a "Muslim should not enslave another MUSLIM".

So they took to enslaving Hindus,African animists,Christians...non-Muslims.

END OF SLAVERY AND VIOLENCE

The idea that slavery in Christian nations only ended due to violence is wrong:England,France,Holland,Spain,ended slavery in their Empires with no violence,no CIVIL WAR.All the Latin American nations ended slavery peacefully.It was only in the US that it happened.

Fernando said...

The Osama The Great Abdallah (following the "no" butt "yes" tactic commun in islam) saide:

«I do not insult any particular person on this board or anywhere else, unless he/she deserves it»...

yeppp... just like islam...

no killing allowed UNLESS in several ocasions;

no honor killing allowed UNLESS in several ocasions;

no women beating allowed UNLESS in several ocasions;

no killing apostates allowed UNLESS in several ocasions;

no compulsion in religion allowed UNLESS in several ocasions;

no violence allowed UNLESS in several ocasions;

no lying allowed UNLESS in several ocasions;

no slavery allowed UNLESS in several ocasions;

no drinking alcohol allowed UNLESS in several ocasions;

no masturbation allowed allowed UNLESS in several ocasions;

no watchin porn allowed UNLESS in several ocasions;

not trusting the hadiths UNLESS in several ocasions;

not using the Bible UNLESS in several ocasions...

rodem said...

A slave is a slave is a slave - water it down by saying they were prisoners of war and thus acceptable is rediculous!

No body wants to be a slave prisoner or not - it is wrong!

In addition, releasing a slave in islam was not seen as a form of repentance but punishment - economic punishment.

It cost money to keep a slave and a salve can be sold for a profit. Freeing a slave ment foregoing the profit and incurring en expense (buying another slave perhaps).

Even Mohammad was aware of the economic value of slaves.

Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah: A man amongst us declared that his slave would be freed after his death. The Prophet called for that slave and sold him. The slave died the same year.

Mohammad made a profit...

IslamSINS said...

Abdallah blathers: "On the contrary, this humble servant of Allah Almighty, me, have [sic] already converted many former christians to Islam."

Osama, I get the feeling you couldn't convert Celsius to Fahrenheit. I've yet to meet two people, other than your own schizophrenic, delusional self, who are impressed with any of your efforts. You're a spiritual Hacky Sack for both Christians and Muslims, scorned as a very inferior apologist. If you've won a "Christian" to Islam, they must have been in the advanced stages of Alzheimer's, as were your false messenger and his imaginary "allah".

Anyhooooooo, back to topic: Silas on answering-islam.org has written a well documented article on slavery in Islam, replete with references from Islam's texts, NOT opinions of Christians and Jews.
http://www.answering-slam.org/Silas/slavery.htm

Of course it will be repugnant to Muslims who might take time to read it, but remaining in denial about Islam's dark, turbulent, barbarous beginnings - and ongoing inhumanity - only serves to keep them center stage in the circus of the demented.

Muslims have to create from whole cloth reasons to believe in Muhammad, AND reasons to reject Christ. It is a game with eternal consequences, and the besotted Muslims are doomed. Endless separation from the true God is the only wage earned at the end of the Muslim's earthly existence.

That is why I hate Islam; it demands excruciating payment for clinging to a delusion. Allah is NOT God, Muhammad was a foul purveryor of filth.

Paul Guralivu said...

To Osama Abdullah:

Answer me this question:
If in Islam slavery is condemend(which I don't deny) then why did the Prophet had 36 slaves at the end of his life ?

Paul.

Paul Guralivu said...

To Osama Abdullah:

Let me refraze the question:
Why would Buhkari and other muslims lie about prophet Muhammad in all the things they said about him?

They were muslims. The one whom started the oral transmition of the hadiths were also muslims.

So it one of the two:
a.Muhammad was as loved as muslims claim he was. They actually hate him. Because nobody would lie like that about their prophet unless they lied.

b.Or those hadiths are real and the prophet Muhammad broke Islam(the claimed perfect religion of Allah):
*had more than 4 wifes at one time;
*had slaves and not freeded them.
(I'm sure every slave would like to me freed)

Waiting for your answer.

Paul.

Adam said...

Hi Ashraf Bhai,


Even I saw the Bro Jerry - Imran debate later on I also read the transcripts. So I want you and other readers to read the Transcripts and later decide who was honest.
We all did not see jerry's amature response, instead Notorious Imran went on insulting Bro Jerry Thomas with the cartoon character name Tom and Jerry.

Reader please read the Transcript links

http://www.sakshitimes.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=268&Itemid=43

Dear Reader, On May 10, 2008, in Hyderabad India, one of the largest ever Christian Muslim debate was held. On the topic Divinity of Jesus and Messengerhood of Muhammad and was attended by 10,000 people. This was a historic event to see our Christian brother Jerry refuting all question created by muhamMad. Let demand this debate video to be uploaded on answering muslim soon.

Debate links

http://www.sakshitimes.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=268&Itemid=43&limit=1&limitstart=3


Hi George (sakshi) Happy to see you on answering muslim. Please try to upload May 10th debate videos on YouTube. Thanx.

Ashraf Bhai,
You consider Dr.Naik is better than other scholars in terms of presentation. So why don’t we call him to UK or USA to debate Bro Sam or David. Why are you defending zakir, instead use zakir to defend islam. If christian invite him to debate he will choose some old retard, Hindu and Catholic priests, Pastors not trained in Christian apologetics, Or the Pope.

Ashraf bhai as you are muslim as well as honest. then try to contact IRF, and let us know what is their reaction.

Peace.

Osama Abdallah said...

"Answer me this question:
If in Islam slavery is condemend(which I don't deny) then why did the Prophet had 36 slaves at the end of his life ?"

Indeed, Islam condemns slavery and enslaving of people as I have thoroughly demonstrated above. Not only that, BUT SLAVES CAN ALSO EARN THEIR FREEDOM and money has to also be paid to them.

Now the answer to your question is as follows:

1- Many stories were told. Some of them are true and some are false. We simply do not know how many "slaves" the Prophet, peace be upon him, had.

2- Assuming the number that you gave to be true, for the sake of argument, my response to it is as follows:

i- These again were captives of war and not slaves. They were there temporarily. The Muslim had fought their tribes and won the battles and ended up with many slaves, widows and orphans. This is by the way why Allah Almighty allowed the marriage of up to 4 wives in Islam. It was for the sole purpose of the orphans. Allah Almighty Said in the Glorious Quran:

***************"IF YE FEAR THAT YE SHALL NOT BE ABLE TO DEAL JUSTLY WITH THE ORPHANS, marry women of your choice, Two or three or four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one, or (a captive) that your right hands possess, that will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice. (The Noble Quran, 4:3)"

Again, because many orphans and widows were brought in to the Muslims after the Muslims conquored the pagan tribe, these human beings were distributed among the Muslims, along with the other spoils of wars such as weapons, cattles, gold, money, grains, etc.... SO IF I HAD 5 ORPHAN BABIES AND 3 WIDOWS from the human captives be assigned to me, and I only had one wife, then the natural and realistic answer to this social challenge is to either marry the widows or take them as harems. The 4 women total, my wife and the 3 other women can now care for my children and the new orphans and for me and for themselves, and for my old parents, and for the neighbors, and for the community.

SO THE BOTTOM LINE HERE IS THIS:

****************ISLAM'S "SLAVERY" CAME TO SOLVE SOCIAL PROBLEMS AND CHALLENGES.
It came to provide a system that enables care to the families, widows, orphans, neighbors, relatives and to the entire community.

Please visit: http://www.answering-christianity.com/polygamy.htm for more details and proofs.

Also visit: http://www.answering-christianity.com/ac18.htm#links

And http://www.answering-christianity.com/captives.htm

THIS IN TURN PREVENTED prostitution, rape, social injustice towards the orphans, and many other issues.

Therefore, Islam is indeed a Divine Religion of Truth and Mercy and Justice from Allah Almighty, EVEN IN ITS "SLAVERY" (for lack of better words) SYSTEM!

To the infidels who will mock Islam and post garbage as a response to this, I say may you be doomed to Hell for Eternity for being the stubborn enemies of Allah Almighty and His Divine Truth. Ameen.

Osama Abdallah
www.answering-christianity.com

Osama Abdallah said...

"Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah: A man amongst us declared that his slave would be freed after his death. The Prophet called for that slave and sold him. The slave died the same year."

Rodem,

The narration that you quoted further proves that the Prophet was merciful on the slave by giving him the opportunity to be owned by a better master.
Now we must keep in mind that the Islamic Laws came down gradually. So we do not know whether this story came before or after Noble Verse 24:33:

"Let those who find not the wherewithal for marriage keep themselves chaste, until God gives them means out of His grace. *********AND IF ANY OF YOUR SLAVES ask for a deed in writing (to enable them to earn their freedom for a certain sum), GIVE THEM SUCH A DEED if ye know any good in them: yea, give them something yourselves out of the means which God has given to you. But force not your maids to prostitution when they desire chastity, in order that ye may make a gain in the goods of this life. But if anyone compels them, yet, after such compulsion, is God, Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful (to them), (The Noble Quran, 24:33)"

WE ALSO DO NOT KNOW WHAT THE FINANCIAL SITUATION WAS LIKE DURING THIS SITUATION'S TIME. I am certain that if the Prophet was able to free him, then he would've. I say this because I provided AMPLE HADITHS AND NOBLE VERSES that thoroughly demonstrate and prove this without any doubt at:

http://www.answering-christianity.com/ac18.htm#links

One last note, the Noble Quran's Laws came down to Guide the Muslims. Some of those Laws came to fix habits or actions that Muslims did. Noble Verse 24:33 and the many others that I gave in the link seem to have come down TO FIX A CERTAIN TREATMENT AND/OR HABIT TOWARDS THE SLAVES. It even probably came down as a direct answer to the narration that you just quoted above.

THE BOTTOM LINE IS:

ISLAM CAME TO END SLAVERY, AND ISLAM CONDEMNS SLAVERY.
The reason why it was practiced by the Muslims is because it provided social solutions to the times of wars where many orphans and widows were left behind.

Osama Abdallah
www.answering-christianity.com

Fernando said...

Osama saide: «ISLAM CAME TO END SLAVERY»...

to sad it has not done whate it was intendeed to do...

Islam's Black Slaves

Slavery in the History of Muslim Black Africa

Christian Slaves,Muslim Masters: White Slavery in the Mediterranean,the Barbary Coast,and Italy,1500-1800

Slaves and Slavery in Muslim Africa

Muslim Slave System in Medieval India

Arab Slave Trade: Arab Slave Trade. Muslim world, Islam and slavery, History of slavery, African slave trade, Slavery in modern Africa

Wante more Osama... juste say so...

Paul Guralivu said...

To Osama Abdullah:

You wrote this:
"THIS IN TURN PREVENTED prostitution, rape, social injustice towards the orphans, and many other issues."

This raises a few problems:
a. The prevention of this things wouldn't have been necesary is Muhammad and his army wouldn't have made them widows and orphans.

b.This still doesn't answer the question of why Muhammad had more than 4 wifes, as Allah prescribes in Qur'an.

c.I wonder if every time prophet Muhammad comunity was economically unstable he would go on attack an other village and take a few more slave so to solve the economical problem.

d.This would also give a big impulse to Islam by the fact that many times the condition to be freed was to convert to Islam.
A fack impulse.
We know that a free muslim couldn't became a slave, therefore the first thing to do before/after freedom is to convert to Islam so you couldn't ever become a slave.
And if so is the case then there is no wonder why so many people were leaving Islam at the dead of the prophet Muhammad.

I hope you don;t take this as a muckery to Islam. But rather as problems that seem obvious.

Paul.

leviMichael said...

osama said:
The intellectual debate quickly vanishes when debating many christians.

LOL...osama, u are not an intellectual debater; u might be very intelligent in other things, but not apologetics...

well...i guess u can be forgiven since islam is unreasonable, illogical, unintelligible, etc...

plz understand, this is not an insult...

plz answer my simple question:
who (in ur opinion) is the greatest islamic apologist in the western world today? the one that can defend islam anywhere, anytime any place and against anyone?

Simon said...

nabeel

i have a question for u? nabeel when u were a muslim. wut did u think of the scriptures in the quran for instance aisha and muhammad, killing of the non muslims jews and chrsitians for a fact. and the satanic verses and muhammad proclaiming to be a prophet? were u brainwashed like the rest of the redical muslims around the world or were u a westerner muslim who didnt believe in practice them for example suiciding bombing and heavenly virgins? also while u were reading the quran did u find some of the scriptures to be very confusing and heavy?

The Fat Man said...

Osama Abdulalh said it all right here

"The narration that you quoted further proves that the Prophet was merciful on the slave by giving him the opportunity to be owned by a better master."

See that people its a mercy not to be freed under isalm.

Simon said...

osama abdulla

when r u ever gona stop coming up with ur explanations. u knw deep down inside ur heart that islam is false and everytime u hit a certain glich in the quranic scripture u tend to either ignore it or make a so called fact around and about it. im beginning to think its a muslim trend to make up lies and false ignorant statements. osama abdulla y dont u answer my questions posted in the previous thread? i want to hear ur interesting answers

The Fat Man said...

Nothign to read here people just move along. Nope no such thign as honor killing, not in islam, its all Lies Lies Lies.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/10/21/arizona.iraqi.daughter.struck/index.html

Paul Guralivu said...

To Simon, and The Fat Man,

Let's forget Osama Abdullah and his style of apologetics and start analyzing what he is saying.

I mean while I can see that there might be some reasons(may reform reasons) behind Islamic treatment of slaves.

There are underlying problems with the Islamic system:
If Muhammad wouldn't have attacked caravanes and Villages there wouldn;t have no slaves. If no slaves no need for protection from "protitution, orphan abuse etc".

Then using captives as slaves for solving economic/social problems only justify his wars.

So we can see again Muhammad using his religion for his comunity use.

As always with those prophets whom might qualify as "false".

Examples of Muhhamad actions:
a)Islam is saying only 4 wifes. Muhammad had 8-9 wifes at one time.

b)No dolls plays aloud. Aisha got permission to play with dolls.

c)Kill whom ever makes fun of prophet(s).

and so on...

other examples:
Mormonism:
Joseph Smith likes the wife of a member of his newly Church. He receives a revelation to send this guy as missionary to Russia.
While the quy was missing he(Joseph Smith) divorced her from him(the quy sent in mission) and married her.

Does this sound like using newly created religion by the main prophet ?

Paul.

rodem said...

Osama Abdallah,

What you are asking is we give up our ability to think with reason and intelligence if we are to believe what you claim about Mohammad being merciful and Islamic slavery a good thing for the slave.

You know full well Islam did not come to end Slavery. That verse in no way proves that the false prophet was merciful. The Slave was set free only as a death wish by his "master" and should have been honored yet was not. The reality was Mohammad saw an opportunity to make money from this freed non-muslim and sold the slave BACK into slavery. That is not an act of mercy and NOT an opportunity for the slave who was given FREEDOM.

Furthermore, you made the statement that "The reason why it was practiced by the Muslims is because it provided social solutions to the times of wars where many orphans and widows were left behind."

Social solutions??? You mean a way for muslims who slaughtered families to make a profit from the survivors... There would have been NO orphans or widows if Mohammad never went to war! But murder and booty is what his merry men wanted and was the only way Mohammad could keep his men in line and followers of islam.

Slavery was/is wrong. You remind me of a bank robber who steals a load of money and hurts people in the process without care... then decides to give some money back and expects to be praised for your generosity for returning some of what you stole!

Then you become upset when the people you stole from are not grateful and you cry that you are now being the victim...

Slavery is submission to a master, what is Islam?

rodem said...

Oh, and something you left out: Can you explain why the slave died a year later? Please don’t tell us the slave was heartbroken for the old master. If anything, the slave was heartbroken because the slave’s freedom was stolen from him by Mohammad. In addition, selling the slave back into slavery was not a social solution but pure economics (greed) and heartlessness on Mohammad’s part…

That is how I - a kafir - see's this picture and I am sure the slave saw the same thing...

The Fat Man said...

Adam
Thanks for sharing the link to that debate. Everyone should take teh time to read the transcript. Any idea where to get the video or audio?

The Christian debator made some great comments, and quoted some great scripture.

I can beleive the muslim debator made those comments in his opening regarding Tom and Jerry. Simply amazing.

The Fat Man said...

Oh say it aint so, I'm reading the debate transcript and this islamic apologist sites every muslims favorite source. Can you guess?

"if you visit Wikipedia, he was quoting my website, I will quote you very strong authentic historical websites, Wikipedia, encyclopedia Britannica, if you visit these websites, you will find these websites, they say that Trinity was introduced at the time of Constantine, a Roman king."

Wiki and Encyclopiedia Britanica are very authentic historical websites LOL

minoria said...

The nearest to freeing a slave in the Koran is 24:33.But it is CONDITIONAL,free him if you find good in him.

MOSAIC LAW

But there we have the freeing of all Jewish slaves on the 7th year,and that slaves (it doesn't say Jewish,just slave,a general term) that escape are not to be returned and then we have the JUBILEE year where the text declares freedom for ALL the inhabitants every 50 years.It is often said to refer to only Jewish slaves but the literal text does not specifiy that at all.I don't see why one has to say it means other that what it plainly says.

LEVITICUS 25:10

It is the JUBILEE law:"You will sanctify the 50 TH YEAR ,and proclaim FREEDOM in the country for ALL its inhabitants."

AGAIN

Again the Koran has no law for freeing all the slaves at a certain time,nor for not returning them if they escape.True,it says to free a slave,but it is CONDITIONAL.Why in Mosaic Law the literal reading of the text does not.

Royal Son said...

Osama,

your post seemed to imply that Muslims are the nearest to the Christians and that some are very good people.

I am rather puzzled, because correct me if I am wrong but Christians commit the sin of shirk according to muslims, the one unforgivable sin. Since shirk is considered to be the worst possible sin, worse than adultery, murder, rape, theft, and so on, could you please explain how the how morality code works from a muslim perspective?

Why would you consider some Christians as good if we commit the sin that is worse than the above mentioned sins.

Thank you.

Royal Son said...

Osama, I would also just like to point out that while I appreciate the concession you made of your behavior, is it not more noble to rise above insults? If you feel that someone is insulting you, you can simply point it out, rather than get locked into an insult fest. I don't say this to try to lecture you on how you should behave. You're obviously old enough to know that. I just mention it because when I come to this board I like to avoid all the unnecessary layers and get to the main points if you know what I mean.

Adam said...

Hi Fat Man,

The muslim apologist Imran copies zaikr naik. In fact He has named his company IREF (sound similar to zakir IRF),

As I always say, after 9/11 islam is the only religion to spend millions of wealth on PR, Advertising and other promotions. These men like zakir and others made fortune out of daawa business. It is easy to fool arabs as they are depended people.


Regarding the Debate videos Lets contact Sakshi.

ashraf said...

Hi guys,

please read the below articles to understand about salvery. It was a common pratice in all communities.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery

In his book about the slave trade and the American Revolution, author Charles Rappleye writes that

“ In the West Indies in particular, but also in North and South America, slavery was the engine that drove the mercantile empires of Europe. The institution was as old as time - finding explicit sanction in the Bible, and in the glory days of Greece and Rome - and had flourished, in its modern form, for two hundred years. It appeared, in the eighteenth century, as universal and immutable as human nature.[5]

Main article: History of slavery

Slave market in early medieval Eastern Europe. Painting by Sergei Ivanov.Slavery is rare among Hunter gatherer populations, as slavery depends on a system of social stratification. Slavery also requires economic surpluses and a high population density to be viable. Due to these factors, the practice of slavery would have only proliferated after the invention of agriculture during the Neolithic revolution about 11,000 years ago.[8] The earliest records of slavery can be traced to the Code of Hammurabi (ca. 1760 BC), and the Bible refers to it as an established institution.[9] Slavery was known to occur in civilizations as old as Sumer, as well as almost every other ancient civilization, including Ancient Egypt, the Akkadian Empire, Assyria, Ancient Greece, the Roman Empire and the Islamic Caliphate.[10] Such institutions were a mixture of debt-slavery, punishment for crime, the enslavement of prisoners of war, child abandonment, and the birth of slave children to slaves.[11] Records of slavery in Ancient Greece go as far back as Mycenaean Greece. Two-fifths (some authorities say four-fifths) of the population of Classical Athens were slaves.[12] Greeks philosophers such as Aristotle accepted the theory of natural slavery, that is, that some men are slaves by nature.[13][14]

ashraf said...

Adam bhai

haven't you seen the debate Dr.William Campbell vs Naik held in US some years ago?

what was the climax? Dr.Campbell espacaped by the back door of that auditorium, isn't it? still you need more debates?

Adam bhai i can't arrange any debates with IRF but i can do only one thing.in my every prayer i beg god almighty to give you Hidhaya and sucess life, after death.

unless you correct yourself no debats will help you Adam.

Osama Abdallah said...

"LEVITICUS 25:10

It is the JUBILEE law:"You will sanctify the 50 TH YEAR ,and proclaim FREEDOM in the country for ALL its inhabitants."

AGAIN

Again the Koran has no law for freeing all the slaves at a certain time,nor for not returning them if they escape.True,it says to free a slave,but it is CONDITIONAL.Why in Mosaic Law the literal reading of the text does not."

Minoria,

The bible's old testament, which is mixed between UNORIGINAL COPIES of original Divine Revelations and man-made injections, alterations, fabrications and lies, is clear about slavery: SLAVES AND THEIR CHILDREN AND ALL GENERATIONS AFTER THEM MUST remain as slaves to the Israelites:

********** Leviticus 25:44-46 "Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves.
You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. +++++++++YOU CAN WILL THEM TO YOUR CHILDREN AS INHERITED PROPERTY AND MAKE THEM SLAVES FOR LIFE, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly."

Notice Minoria that both our verses come from the same book. My verses come after your verses, and thus they are better than yours :-). This also makes me better and more handsome than you :-). It also makes me higher and smarter and more attractive than you :-). Visit: http://www.answering-christianity.com/ac18.htm#links to see ample proofs about me being more handsome than you in great details :-).

No for real, your verses are speaking about NOT ENSLAVING FELLOW ISRAELITES! This is further proven in my cuter verses, which came after your verses (my verses are better than your verses), that SPECIFICALLY SAY "but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly."

Again, please visit the link. All of the verses that I've given and much much more with detailed analysis are in this link.

And as to Islam allowing the owner to free the slave only if he sees good in him, YES, BUT IF THE OWNER IS EVIL OR STUBBORN, THEN THE RULING AUTHORITY WOULD THEN STEP IN AND DO IT.

Take care,
Osama Abdallah
www.answering-christianity.com

Osama Abdallah said...

"To Simon, and The Fat Man,

Let's forget Osama Abdullah and his style of apologetics and start analyzing what he is saying."

LOOOLLL Paul! :-). They obviously love me.

george said...

Dear Ashraf, thanks for your comments.

1: How to you evaluate sucess of a debate?
2: What was the topic of May 10 debate? if you know then i ask you to hear or read Imran's talk and decide whether he stick on the topic.
3.You will wonder to know that even Imran couldnt defend the prophethood of Muhammad. He took 5 minutes to say abt his prophet.
4. You said Jerry was slow down at rebuttal. This shows you agree that Imran failed in presentaion and also answering Jerry's Point.
5. What was the question raised by Imran which Jerry didnt addressed?
6. If May 10 debate was win win to Imran then why after that he didnt even once had any debate with any christian with dat fame? In hyderabad you wont even hear his name.
7. If debate was sucessful then why did he ommitted and edited in debate Dvd? I ask you to buy Dvds Produced by Imran and Sakshi.
8. Even Niche of Truth a Muslim debate org and also other well educated Muslims have accepted that iMRAN FAILED.
Dear Ashraf for fight sake you are defending a person whom you dont know to be strong. Even zakir or Asifuddin dont accept Imran as Good Guy.
As Part of zakir naik. Sakshi had send many mails asking him to debate. He can choose indian debater of come out of safe zone and debate with any of our brothers in West.
Willaim camphel is not a debater but a writer. He was humble and faithful thats why he said as a Human he dont know d answer. Ashraf dont u think its an Gentlemen approach to accept what he dont know than fooling people?

If you really think zakir is best then let us see them on stage with Good Opponent.

Dear Adam. nice to meet u thru this way. Adam, did we met earlier? were do you live? keep in touch. Iam stay in Hyderabad near to Imrans and asifuddins office! mail me yaar. In christ your brother. georgejohn777@gmail.com

David Wood said...

Ashraf said: "haven't you seen the debate Dr.William Campbell vs Naik held in US some years ago?"

I can't believe Muslims keep bringing up this debate. Campbell is very intelligent and knowledgeable, but he's certainly no debater. And yet Muslims act as if he's one of our top guys! Has Campbell ever even had a debate with anyone else?

Ashraf, every Christian here knows that Zakir's entire debate career has been against people who aren't debaters. Sam Shamoun, James White, Nabeel, and I have all challenged him, and he refuses to debate. But if the pastor down the street, who's never debated before, challenges Zakir, he will accept the challenge. How pathetic is that? And how did Zakir get a reputation for being a great debater when no one has ever seen him actually debate another debater?

rodem said...

Osama: And as to Islam allowing the owner to free the slave only if he sees good in him, YES, BUT IF THE OWNER IS EVIL OR STUBBORN, THEN THE RULING AUTHORITY WOULD THEN STEP IN AND DO IT.

Rodem: LOL... Who is the Ruling authority (Islamic no doubt) going to believe if a question is asked about the character of the muslim master. The slave or the muslim owner!!!

Here is a prime example about who will beleieve whom...

If a woman goes to the authority to claim she was raped by a muslim man... Is it not required that she need the word of FOUR pious muslims to back her claim up she was raped by a muslim man!

FOUR pious muslim men who watched her being raped (Does this not beg the question that if they were pious in the first place they would have stopped the muslim man from raping her in the first place instead of just watching?!)!

So what are the chances the RULING AUTHORITY would step in favour of the slave???

a) None!
b) Next to none!
c) Cold day in hell!
d) Does this burka make me look fat?

Insane!!!

minoria said...

To answer Osama about LEV 25:44-46 where it says foreign slaves are to be slaves for life.

There is another Mosaic law that says that if a Jewish slave wants to continue being one for life after the 7 years then he can do so,and he would have to pierce his ear.

SO?

The rabbis were confronted by such overlaps in Mosaic law regarding the same theme.

EXAMPLE

If a Jewish man in debt offers himself as a slave to pay off his debt then according to Mosaic Law he is freed on the 7th year(DEUT 15:1-3).

WHAT IF...

What if only ONE YEAR passes by and then the 50 year JUBILEE arives?
Then we have a contradiction to solve.How did the rabbis solve it?They decreed that in that case the SHORTER term had precedence over the longer one...in other words the man was free after 1 year because of the Jubilee.

minoria said...

EXAMPLE 2

In the same way if a Jewish slave decides to pierce his ear as a sign that he wants to continue with his master for life,then using the same principle of giving precedence to the SHORTER term he would still be free if by coincidence the Jubilee came in his lifetime.

EXAMPLE 3

DEUT 23:15-16 says if a slave escapes he is not to be returned but given safety.Traditionally it is interpreted to mean a Jewish slave but the text does NOT say that,it just says slave.

So I dont see why a FOREIGN slave who is to be one "for life" could not escaped and have freedom and be protected by DEUT 23:15-16 of Mosaic law.

AGAIN

The rabbis had decided to give PRECEDENCE to the shorter term.And AGAIN,LEV 25:10 says all the inhabitants are to be given freedom every 50 years.To say it means only Jews is to add more words than the text says.

Fernando said...

Hi ashraf...

the problem is not only iff «slavery was a common pratice in all communities», but wether islam, with its intrisic structures, allows its societies (the muslim ones) to overcome slavery... the evidence, from nowhadays, is: no it does not...

Fernando said...

ashraf: the debate between Dr. William Campbell and Naik held was everything butt a debate...

1) William Campbell is not a top schoolar, nor a top apologist, nor a top debater;

2) some rulles were agreed between them... William Campbell,a though feeling he was becoming under fire, kept to the rules; Naik ignored all the rules;

3) William Campbell was several times threatened during the time he was speeking...

to sad, butt true... it woulde be a shame to islam, butt islam has its own rulles thate goes agains whate eberyone else thinks is "normal behaviour"... to sad...

minoria said...

JESUS AS A SLAVE

In MARK 10:43-45 Jesus has a SON of MAN saying,one of the 50 Son of Man sayings which scholars believe are the words of Jesus or have a high probability.

MARK 10:43-45:"It is not the same among you.Whoever wants to be great among you must become a servant.

And whoever wants to be the FIRST among you must become the DOULOS of all.For the SON of MAN Has Come(note:the Son of Man is already there)not to be served but to serve and give his life as a ransom for many."

COMMENT

Jesus,who is the FIRST in importance lowers himself to the rank of a DOULOS (slave in Greek).

Of course the idea of having the MESSIAH as a real slave is not acceptable,so he would be freed,and that with the Golden Rule goes against the idea of slavery in itself.

Paul Guralivu said...

To Osama Abdullah and minora:

But of quoted out of context.
Minora from immediate context and Osama Adbullah from entire Bible context.

Why couldn't a jew have his brother as a jew more than 50 years(I think 50 is a jubilee), because in the eyes of God your equal.

We also see a good treatment of slaves from other nations among jews: Leviticus 25:47 "If an alien or a temporary resident among you becomes rich".

A alien slave could become more rich. Which mean he must have been treated justly.

What is the context of the Bible about slaves:
a. we all are create in God's image.
Genesis 1: 26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, [b] and over all the creatures that move along the ground."

b. slavery came into the world as of sin(along with all the other wrongs).

c.The Judaism was temporary therefore the slavery in Judaism was temporary.
John 1:17: "For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ."

d.What is the position of Christianity about slavery ?(other than what happened with some christians that practiced this)

Paul about Onisim in the letter to Philimon:

16. "no longer as a slave, but better than a slave, as a dear brother. He is very dear to me but even dearer to you, both as a man and as a brother in the Lord".

The spiritual status is above the immediate context in which we are.

Ephesians 6
Slaves and Masters
5."Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ. 6Obey them not only to win their favor when their eye is on you, but like slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from your heart. 7Serve wholeheartedly, as if you were serving the Lord, not men, 8because you know that the Lord will reward everyone for whatever good he does, whether he is slave or free.

9.And masters, treat your slaves in the same way. Do not threaten them, since you know that he who is both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no favoritism with him."

Paul.

Osama Abdallah said...

Part I

My dear Paul,

I first of all want to mention that it is an honor to be conversing with you. You INDEED SEEM TO BE QUITE SINCERE AND POLITE.
I ask Allah Almighty to enable me to help you see the Truth of Islam. Ameen.

The following are my responses to your points, sir:

"To Osama Abdullah:
You wrote this:
"THIS IN TURN PREVENTED prostitution, rape, social injustice towards the orphans, and many other issues."

This raises a few problems:
a. The prevention of this things wouldn't have been necesary is Muhammad and his army wouldn't have made them widows and orphans."

The Islam that you know of today started with one person: Muhammad. It then kept on growing and growing. The infidels had a great deal of problem with this, BECAUSE ISLAM CAME TO CRUSH THEIR IDOLS, END THEIR POLYTHEISM, AND INSTALL ORDER AND JUSTICE IN ARABIA. If you get out of the mind set of Muhammad being a false prophet, into the mind set of Muhammad was a True Messenger of Allah Almighty, then you would see that every battle the Muslims fought was justified.

"b.This still doesn't answer the question of why Muhammad had more than 4 wifes, as Allah prescribes in Qur'an."

GREAT QUESTION! Here are my answers to it:

1- The Noble Verse came down to a society of polygamists.


2- When the Noble Verse came down, the Prophet and others already had more than 4 wives.

3- The rule obviously did not apply to them.

4- ALLAH ALMIGHTY FORBADE FOR THE PROPHET TO MARRY MORE WOMEN AFTER THIS:

************
************
************
"It is not lawful for thee (to marry more) women after this,
nor to change them for (other) wives, even though their beauty attract thee, except any thy right hand should possess (as handmaidens): and God doth watch over all things. (The Noble Quran, 33:52)"
************
************
************


Also my dear Paul, the Bible's Old Testament gave special moral privilages to Prophets and Priests. Moses and his brother were given 100% of all of the wealth, and Priests were only allowed to marry special rank of women. For ample Biblical verses on this, please visit:

http://www.answering-christianity.com/prophet_wives_after_him.htm

http://www.answering-christianity.com/muhammads_share.htm

Please see Part II

Osama Abdallah said...

Part II

"c.I wonder if every time prophet Muhammad comunity was economically unstable he would go on attack an other village and take a few more slave so to solve the economical problem."

No, because Allah Almighty forbade us to transgress:

"Fight in the cause of God those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for God loveth not transgressors. (The Noble Quran, 2:190)"

"But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards peace,
and trust in God: for He is One that heareth and knoweth (all things). (The Noble Quran, 8:61)"

Please visit: http://www.answering-christianity.com/jihad.htm

"d.This would also give a big impulse to Islam by the fact that many times the condition to be freed was to convert to Islam.
A fack impulse.
We know that a free muslim couldn't became a slave, therefore the first thing to do before/after freedom is to convert to Islam so you couldn't ever become a slave.
And if so is the case then there is no wonder why so many people were leaving Islam at the dead of the prophet Muhammad."

GREAT POINT! But it is wrong, with all due respect. This is because Allah Almighty Said:

"LET THERE BE NO COMPULSION in religion: Truth stands out clear from error:
whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy handhold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things."

Now I grant you Paul, that there might've been incidents before this Noble Verse was revealed here compulsion was practiced. I HONESTLY DO NOT KNOW OF AN INCIDENT where an infidel was forced to embrace Islam, but it is possible. In the end, however, the matter was settled by Allah Almighty for good when ALLAH ALMIGHTY FORBADE COMPULSION.

Please visit: http://www.answering-christianity.com/apostates.htm

"I hope you don;t take this as a muckery to Islam. But rather as problems that seem obvious.

Paul."

Not at all Paul. You are a great Christian and it is an honor for me to have a dialogue with you.

Have a great and blessed day, sir.

Best regards,
Osama Abdallah
www.answering-christianity.com

Paul Guralivu said...

To Osama Adbullah:

It's good that we can have a dialogue being polite.

You wrote:
"If you get out of the mind set of Muhammad being a false prophet, into the mind set of Muhammad was a True Messenger of Allah Almighty, then you would see that every battle the Muslims fought was justified.".

Everybody should have shoot to prove that he is what he claims to be.
But to find out whom were those persons we must investigate the earliest sources.

As for all the points that christians(and others) make from hadiths: that Muhammad took advantage of his religion(breaking it so many times: Aisha plays with dolls, which at the moment wasn;t allowed in Islam and so on...).

The arguments brought by muslims doesn't stand a relational mind(only supranatural is allowed in faith and religion):
a.In a debate of yours with Nabeel Qureshi you said: "What's so hard to believe that true muslims said and wrote those things about Muhammad, yet does aren't true. Kind of like gospels of Judah and other."

The arguments doesn't stand because of more points:
*-those whom wrote gospels of Judah and Thomas, Phillipe and others they didn;t declare about them that they are christians.
those gospels aren't the most recent sources for the life of Jesus.
*-They didn;t question the Jesus morality or prophethood, but rather gave a different interpretation of Jesus(wrong in my vision). While if the hadiths about Muhammad are true, then his prophethood claims are prove as false and him as a cheater.

Shabir Ally in the debate with Dave Hunt(I think it was with Dave Hunt) said that they don't believe this hadiths are true, because they are not consistent with the message of Quran.
But the problem is this: that's not a way to decide what's true and what's not.
I think in 100 years people will declare that Bush was a great man and when we will roll the tapes with him acting dumb or saying dumb things. Most of his suporters will say that does are fabrications.(I am and I was against Bush attacking Irak).

As for the slaves in Islam:
I agree that we can't judge ones religion based on the deeds of the followers.
But the deeds of the followers show us how the fruits of one's religion(again not a decisive argument for rejection of one's religion).

My study of slavery in Islam will not end, but I also wanted to know, to inform my self from a muslim source- that the first source. Hadiths will be a interesting study.

I know about muslims countries(I think I can say that Ottoman Empire was muslims in 99%) taking slaves wasn't new.

I'm from Romania, here in Romania we have a LOOOOOOOOOOOOONG history of fighting Ottoman Empire. We also have many stories of christians taken slaves.
And here arose the question: What's the probability of their grandgrandsons to be christians.

We have more saints in the Orthodox Church that were martyrised by muslims:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantin_Br%C3%A2ncoveanu.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abo_of_tiflis(he died because he gave up Islam for "sweet fragrance of Christ's commandments").
While this might be the message of Islam, we must search the history and find out if one religion is in favor of such actions.

This response isn't meant to answer any of your answers, because my initial assertions weren't conclusions but rather observations which might be or not true.

As a small advice: I think you should give Jesus a shot to be what He claims to be(If you already did it-I don't know).

Paul.

Paul Guralivu said...

Edits:
While this might not be the message of Islam, we must search the history and find out if one religion is in favor of such actions.

Edit:
I did try to prove that Muhammad fights weren't justly.

Paul.

Paul Guralivu said...

Edit again:
I didn't try to prove that Muhammad fights weren't justly.

I even quoted anything.
It's late for me.
I'm tired.

Paul.

SD said...

"I also used to have a message posted all over my site that said:

"I LOVE ALL CHRISTIANS AND I HAVE NOTHING AGAISNT THEM."

But all of this changed because of the many christians who constantly insult Islam and Allah Almighty and Prophet Muhammad, by calling them names and insulting them."

Now we see Osama openly admits he no longer loves Christians. Apparently "many christians ... constantly insult Islam" therefore he now harbors no love for Christians as a whole. Very interesting standard. If everyone applied that same standard to muslims killing non-muslims, then no one could ever love muslims. Does that mean he does not love muslims either? Since there are muslims commiting violence in the name of Islam, he must not love muslims anymore if he applied the same standard that he does to a Christian who "insults" Islam.

Now onto his first point where Osama references 3:199. Notice the important part of the verse is here when it refers to people who follow "in the revelation to you, and in the revelation to them". The "revelation to you" would imply that they follow the qur'an and are muslim. The verse really implies you can believe in the Bible and the Qur'an and be a muslim. If you actually read the Bible, it references Muhammad only as a false prophet. How ironic that the Qur'an is so contradictary in promoting the Bible which proves Muhammad as a false prophet.

Now onto Osama's second point. He now references Qur'an 3:113-114. Now in my Yusuf Ali Qur'an point 437 in reference to 3:113-114 states "this verse, according to Commentators, refers to those People of the Book who eventually embraced Islam". I figured this would have been very obvious when verse 114 states that it refers to people who "believe in Allah". This verse, once again, only applies to muslims.

Point three that Osama tries to make is in reference to Qur'an 7:159. Sure Osama did quote that correctly as he usually does. The problem is he does not give the full context. This verse refers to people who are later "despised and rejected" as they were turned into "apes" [Qur'an 7:166].

Now point four Osama quotes 5:82. Lets follow up with Qur'an 5:83 to once again see this refers to people who "listen to the revelation received by the Messenger" because they will "recognize the truth". This is another verse commanding muslims to love those [other muslims] who accept Islam, just like in every other verse you have tried to misconstruct.

The reason Osama misquotes his own qur'an is because of what it really teaches about Christians and Jews.

Qur'an 98:6 refers to the Christians and Jews as "the vilest of creatures".

Qur'an 2:65 also refers to non-muslims as "apes" that are "despised and rejected".

Qur'an 5:60 also says non-muslims were "transformed into apes and swine".

Qur'an 7:166 mandates that non-muslims, "Be ye apes. Despised and rejected."

No wonder Osama doesn't have love for Christians.

He is commanded not to by the Qur'an, as him and I both have illustrated. I would like to thank Osama for quoting verses that actually proved my case.

Jesus commanded us to "Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you" in Matthew 5:44. Where in the Qur'an are muslims called to love their enemies and pray for those who persecute them?

Let us live by Jesus' word, and not the false prophet of Muhammad.

SD said...

"I also used to have a message posted all over my site that said:

"I LOVE ALL CHRISTIANS AND I HAVE NOTHING AGAISNT THEM."

But all of this changed because of the many christians who constantly insult Islam and Allah Almighty and Prophet Muhammad, by calling them names and insulting them."

Now we see Osama openly admits he no longer loves Christians. Apparently "many christians ... constantly insult Islam" therefore he now harbors no love for Christians as a whole. Very interesting standard. If everyone applied that same standard to muslims killing non-muslims, then no one could ever love muslims. Does that mean he does not love muslims either? Since there are muslims commiting violence in the name of Islam, he must not love muslims anymore if he applied the same standard that he does to a Christian who "insults" Islam.

Now onto his first point where Osama references 3:199. Notice the important part of the verse is here when it refers to people who follow "in the revelation to you, and in the revelation to them". The "revelation to you" would imply that they follow the qur'an and are muslim. The verse really implies you can believe in the Bible and the Qur'an and be a muslim. If you actually read the Bible, it references Muhammad only as a false prophet. How ironic that the Qur'an is so contradictary in promoting the Bible which proves Muhammad as a false prophet.

Now onto Osama's second point. He now references Qur'an 3:113-114. Now in my Yusuf Ali Qur'an point 437 in reference to 3:113-114 states "this verse, according to Commentators, refers to those People of the Book who eventually embraced Islam". I figured this would have been very obvious when verse 114 states that it refers to people who "believe in Allah". This verse, once again, only applies to muslims.

Point three that Osama tries to make is in reference to Qur'an 7:159. Sure Osama did quote that correctly as he usually does. The problem is he does not give the full context. This verse refers to people who are later "despised and rejected" as they were turned into "apes" [Qur'an 7:166].

Now point four Osama quotes 5:82. Lets follow up with Qur'an 5:83 to once again see this refers to people who "listen to the revelation received by the Messenger" because they will "recognize the truth". This is another verse commanding muslims to love those [other muslims] who accept Islam, just like in every other verse you have tried to misconstruct.

The reason Osama misquotes his own qur'an is because of what it really teaches about Christians and Jews.

Qur'an 98:6 refers to the Christians and Jews as "the vilest of creatures".

Qur'an 2:65 also refers to non-muslims as "apes" that are "despised and rejected".

Qur'an 5:60 also says non-muslims were "transformed into apes and swine".

Qur'an 7:166 mandates that non-muslims, "Be ye apes. Despised and rejected."

No wonder Osama doesn't have love for Christians.

He is commanded not to by the Qur'an, as him and I both have illustrated. I would like to thank Osama for quoting verses that actually proved my case.

Jesus commanded us to "Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you" in Matthew 5:44. Where in the Qur'an are muslims called to love their enemies and pray for those who persecute them?

Let us live by Jesus' word, and not the false prophet of Muhammad.

ashraf said...

Hi George here are the links of that debate:

http://irefworld.org/

under the title of video center you can find debates & dialogues, there you can view the whole debate.let the viewers decide.

David Wood said...
"I can't believe Muslims keep bringing up this debate. Campbell is very intelligent and knowledgeable,"

what else more required to a debator?
Mr.Wood, Zakir Naik doesn't need your recognition.The world knows about his capability.

David Wood said...

Ashraf said: "what else more required to a debator?
Mr.Wood, Zakir Naik doesn't need your recognition.The world knows about his capability."

Are you serious? Do you think that intelligence and knowledge are all that is required to be a debater? Do you not realize the role played by speaking ability, debate experience, intellectual and verbal quickness, organizational skills, wit, voice projection, etc.? In fact, I find that when Muslims and Christians debate, Muslims generally aren't paying much attention to the information at all. They're listening to how confident and forceful the speakers are (which has nothing to do with knowledge or intelligence). If you disagree, then would you say that any knowledgable and intelligent Muslim is capable of public debate? Care to test that theory, friend?

And you say that the world knows of Naik's capability? On the contrary, we know of Shabir Ally's capability, because we have seen him debate experienced debaters. We've never seen Naik face a major Christian debater, because he refuses to do so. Until he actually takes on someone with debate experience (and I don't think he ever will), and as long as he backs down from every challenge, non-Muslims will not take him seriously.

Adam said...

Ashraf Bhai,

I knew your your Idol Zakir run to debate Student of comparative religions, Apologist and debators. I am suprise even you support such cunning Rat.

Zakir cunning games

1) Use Protestant Literature Against Catholic.

2) Use Jehovah Witness Literature Against Bible Christian

3) Use Atheist Literature against Christians.

4) Use Sunni Islam Literature against Shias.

5) Use Wahhabi Literature Against Sunni Muslims.

6) Use Arya Samaj and Brahmo samaj(Monotheistic Hindus) Literature against Hindus.

Most of Zakir naiks concert and shows attender are poorly educated people. Most of them of Mob mentality from Slum areas. (slum areas in Mumbai are vote banks to Politicians from muslim minority, illegal immigrants etc. Hence they do not vanish from Mumbai)

Any ways Dude Why are you still supporting the Rat called Zakir. Are you one of his agent in UK. as he has many partners in USA,UAE,Saudi Pak...I mean business partners....

Many Indian muslim are backward and poor unlike western muslim. If you show them A white man has converted to islam. These poor people will invest their saving for the cause of allah.

Zakir naik international school are meant for Rich Muslims from influential families. But he still ask for islamic alms on Peace TV. but this never reaches the poor.

I remember you saying Westerners funding Indian Christians. Still not True. Infact your Wahabbi Saudis are funding muslim and making them Hypocrite like themselves.


I do have respect for Ahmed dedat as a good Debater, Unlike Zakir and gang who are accumulating wealth.


About IREF Debate, I think you did't read the transcript. To be honest when you muslim mob attend debated you guys go deaf ears, when Scholars speak. Rather copy cats like Imran joking.

ashraf said...

Adam bhai,

it's really funny to read your comments, everyone knows christianity is a billion dollar business and missionaries are rich.even a ordinary pastor or evangelist in my town own a car.

i personally knew three Dhalith guys converted to christianity just for money or help from the missionary. The pastor or evangelist who is converting these people to christianity getting dollars or Euros from their western bosses.I think you know Dr.Paul Dinakaran in chennai,please enquire about him and find out how he own a university now.he was a beggar once upon a time.

So Adam bhai please stop bluffing. see the sample video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3Zxjndf0mw

if you want more please come to valliyoor near kanniyakumari (South India) i will show you how your christianity spreads. Shame on you Adam bhai.

Regarding Zakir, i don't know why you are too disturbed about Zakir.(uska naam sunke aapku mirchi lag jathe kyun). Let me clear my stand, Zakir naik is not a super hero for me even i have some problem with him but in comparative religion he is one of the best.so you call him rat,cat,tiger whatever you like. i have no any problem but you are accountable for your words.

Adam bhai when you have full debate (Imran vs Tom) online why you trying to divert the attention by reading transcriptions,let the viewers see it and judge.

Fernando said...

SD... glad to see you arounde here... hoppe to see you more in the futur...

you saide: «If everyone applied that same standard to muslims killing non-muslims»...

Godd point 90% off muslims thate were killed in actts off violence in the XX century were killed at the handes off other muslims...

george said...

ASHRAF

Its strange that you act silly even things are clear. You may have hundreds of reason to hate Jesus way.If every Pastors have Car then why do u cry? It may coz there church members want their pastors to use car.(Ashraf u have to know that even in india only 10% of pastors or evangelist have cars BUT there are Hundreds of those who dont even have cycle.i live in India and i can show you thousands of pastors and Evangelist who get only 1500 -2000).What abt those who are converted into Islam by force and petro-dollar? i can show u many examples. Even i get number of calls by muslims asking me to convert into Islam or die.U cant divert the topic just by blaming each other.
By telling us that zakir is best in campartive religion u proved ur Ignorance.If he is really good then why dont he go out from india and debate with indians or non Indians christian?

Were did u find the debate of Imran and Jerry n Youtube? I can send you one mail of you need were a well educated Muslim openly admitted that Jerry did best than Imran.

See ASHRAF, dont be blind to truth. DOnt be like muhammad who always ignored questions but cursed questioners. if u r ready for sincer debate then mail me.
gJ

ashraf said...

hi George what is clear? the way & faith which you are following is clear? yes it is clear to permanent hell, i agree with you but don't call me there.

i never hate jesus's way but, i love him as equal as i love Muhammad(saw), but unfortunately you guys(christians) are preaching satanic way with or without realizing it.

George said:
"what abt those who are converted into Islam by force and petro-dollar? i can show u many examples. Even i get number of calls by muslims asking me to convert into Islam or die."

George i think you are seriously infected by the holy sprit virus otherwise you won't write like this. show me a muslim who embraced islam for money like you christians also show me islamic organisation or missionary involved in this.

your mobile no is a toll free number or what, how many muslims get your number? if they managed to convert you, is it enough, all the problems will be solved or what, since you are in hyderabad you can try comedian roles in telugu films, you are prefectly fit to that.( iam not joking)

George said:
"By telling us that zakir is best in campartive religion u proved ur Ignorance.If he is really good then why dont he go out from india and debate with indians or non Indians christian?"

George according to me he is a good speaker in the field of comparative religion, that's all. you may have different view about his skills. I have no problem.

george said
"Were did u find the debate of Imran and Jerry n Youtube? I can send you one mail of you need were a well educated Muslim openly admitted that Jerry did best than Imran."

george i have given the links above, just sit and watch it, don't move here & there.then it will be crystal clear to you what happend to jerry. please don't talk about this debate anymore.

george said
" See ASHRAF, dont be blind to truth. DOnt be like muhammad who always ignored questions but cursed questioners. if u r ready for sincer debate then mail me.
gJ"

my answer: God is one, Don't associate partners by saying three in one (trinity or triunity). if you are ready to accept this truth carry on dear.Iam ready

yousafsalini said...

ashraf:
you said kay naik ka naam sun kar humain mirchi lagti hai
me:well i will not lie but tammam muslim scholars ka naam sun kar hassi aati hai.hehe

further if naik is such an invincible guy(unrefuted),he will have no problem in debunking any opponenet.but thats not true because he is a coward(no offense)any body can see that he is avoiding many many good challenges.
for example if a football team like brazil ask to match afghanistan and after beating them
he dont want to face england and turning their offers,it means brazil fear greater challenges like naik.

you said:wood "naik dont recognize you".
me:ok if this is the case then all is over since you are not ready to discuss with the best apologists at that time like white.well thats the best we have.
zakir is feared to debate with the debators which have experience,all of his debates with christian scholars are the ones who never debated before.

you said:it all the game of knowledge.
me:from there everybody can see ur level of education,since researches have shown that the way to deliever ur speech is 90% contributed to its effectiveness.
since it has to go on,we are ready to debate but he is avoiding the challenge ,his days are over.hehe