Monday, October 19, 2009

Muhammad, Shirk, and the Satanic Verses

21 comments:

Krishnaraj said...

David Wood...You make me laugh....You say the first century Muslim sources and scholars....And also you say Islam began in the 7th century......

Krishnaraj said...

Can you also tell me what miracles....John the Baptist did....as you said according to Deutronomy 34....One that does not show signs were false Prophets...


Think about the many false Prophets you have...

David Wood said...

Krishnaraj,

When I say "first century Muslim scholars," I'm referring to the first century of Islam. I assumed this would be completely obvious to everyone, but in case you don't know, Muslim calendars don't start at the birth of Jesus.

Glad I could help with your understanding.

David Wood said...

As for Deuteronomy, you've massively misinterpreted a very clear text. The text doesn't say that all prophets must perform miracles, and despite your deceptive misrepresentation, I've never claimed such a thing either. When we talk about the prophet "like Moses," we're referring to a specific prophet who would have certain characteristics. Those characteristics are defined at the end of Deuteronomy. Since Muhammad didn't have these characteristics, he cannot be the prophet "like Moses."

So how does this exclude John the Baptist? The Baptist declared quite plainly that he is not the prophet like Moses.

How can you not get this?

Fernando said...

Krishnaraj and Doctor Wood... I placed a samall answer to this doubtt thate Krishnaraj is still habing in a previous thread... I'll place itt here again latter when thate comment appears in thate thread (I did not save mie words)...

bie the way... iff you, Krishnaraj, likke to make comparisons, lets remember thate "being suicidal" is absolutelly in conextion withe whate modern psychology refers to the aspects off a paedophilicus... this fact plus the one thate clearly shows thate muhammad made sex with a 9 luna years (8 solar years) baby reveals a lot about muhammad... someone could make a comparison out there...

george said...

Krishnaraj, Kaisey ho.

I think you dont read things as it sud be or by adding a fake name u muslim dont do that. Plz read the bible and know the truth abt eternity.

Fernando said...

Here is the comment I placed in a previous thread... hoppe it'll help you dear Krishnaraj...

I guess you're mixing two things: the possibility off being a prophet and the possibility off being the prophet promissed in Deuteronomy as being "one as Moses"... these are two different aspects...

let's postponne the aspect iff muhammad was a prophet (and I do beliebe he was not) and pay attention to the aspect off iff muhammad was the prophet expected to be like Moses (as muslims claim since Dt 18:18 is speaking off this)...

Dt. 18.18 says: «From their own brothers I shall raise up a prophet like yourself»

two points clearly present here: the prophet will be gadered from their (the israelites) "own brothers" (an israelitte) and thate prophet will be "like yourself (Moses)"...

so: was muhamamd an israelite?

aboutte the second aspect (being like Moses), Dt. 34.10 (as Doctor Wood crearly saide in the video) sais: «Since then, there has never been such a prophet in Israel like Moses, the man whom Yahweh knew face to face»...

so: being a prophet likke Moses (not only being a prophet) implies seeing God face to face... did muhammad did this? no...

did Jesus did this? Jesus, clearly satates the Gospel off Jesus according to John, is the Word off God and in Jo. 1:1 (b) it is saide: «the Word was with God», which in greek is «o logos en pros ton theon»... the expression en pros usually requieres a dative (tw thew), butt here, surprisingli, we have an accusative (ton theon) which means "towards"...

so: Jo. 1:1 (b) is better translatted as «the Word was towars God», meaning thate the Word from everlasting time was seeing God the Father... thats why Jesus can bee the explainer off God the Father in Jo. 1:18 which sais (agreeing withe Jo. 1:1 (b)) tahte the onlu Son is «directed towards the Father's heart»...

now... aboutte being a prophet... the MAJOR criteria off prophetwood in the Bible is iff the person is an messenger off YHWH, off the God revealed in the Bible... was muhammad a messenger off YHWH? I'll lett you answer this question...

may God blees you Krishnaraj...

Hogan Elijah Hagbard said...

I just wish krishnaraj would stick to the topic of the thread.

Hogan Elijah Hagbard said...

Funny, muslims will ussually involve any source, old or new, reliable or not as an evidence for, say, Bible corruption. They will simply assume that since a statement is found somewhere it must support their case.

Yet now when we refer to their most reliable material in exposing the Qur'an our use of their own sources is considered: weak, misunderstood, taken out of context, unreliable, etc.

Yet again I guess we witness the nature of inconsistancies within the Islamic religion.

Simon said...

krishnaraj

u havent answered my questions in the previous thread? wuts the matter cat bit ur tongue. i wud simply wud like my questions to be answered by the muslims.

Simon said...

oh and by the way i wud like a straight forward answers to my questions. i knw muslims like to hide behind there lies so it seems. and i knw for sure they will come up with a twisted answer and make it look like it was an accident. i wud also like to knw wut is going on with all them attacks in pakistan? its nothing new to me.

REGI said...

HI FRIENDS
NOTHING GOOD CAN COM FRM MHD & ISLAM. BCOZ B4 THE BIRTH OF THE 1ST MUSLIM ISMAEL IT WAS TOLD THAT HE WILL B A WILD MAN, HIS HAND WILL B AGAINST EVERY MAN.
WHICH WE CAN SEE ALL THIS IN THE WORLD GOING TODAY WHAT THIS TERRORIST MUSLIMS ARE DOING.
U CANT FIND A TERRORIST OTHER THAN MUSLIM IN THE WHOLE WORLD
CHEERS RAJ

ashraf said...

it's a very hilarious show hosted by three Jockexxx( i mean jockeys)

we muslims never claimed muhammed(pbuh) a super natural we say he was a man, even Al Quran in several versus warns Muhammed(pbuh) about shirk, i don't know how these guys are answering like scholars without any fundemental sense or knowledge about islam.

by the way see what your bible talks about satan's temptation to GOD ( see according to you he is not just a man)

Mathew:
4:1 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.

the above incident took place before jesus preach gospels(most of it) am i right? then all your bible evil filled?

i know there will be lot of interpretation to the verse above i mentioned. let me see the show.

Fernando said...

ashraf saide: «the above incident took place before jesus preach gospels(most of it) am i right? then all your bible evil filled?»...

no ashraf... Jesus won the temptations... iff He did not, He woulde habe tryied to concel the incident, butt He did no such thing... just the opposite from muhammad... don't you think so?

Paul Guralivu said...

To ashraf:

The incident is before the start of His(may His peace be upon all of us. I rather want His peach upon me, then my peace upon Him.) preaching.

Satan had to tempt Jesus(may His peace be upon all of us), to try to stop Him from spreading His message and more than that, to stop Him from fullfilling His mission(His sacrifice-opening our way to God).

The Lord Jesus Christ(may His peace be upon all of us) had to fullfill all things(Matthew 3:15). To be tempted in all the ways that we humans are tempted.

In the end of His work, Jesus (may His peace be upon all of us) said:
John 16:33 (New International Version)

33"I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world."

He couldn't have said that unless he was tempted.

If your question is this:
aren't this words of Satan in the Bible ?
The answer is that his(satan's) were there only to be condemend.

But what happened with Muhammad was different. He proclaimed that things, after which he abrogate them.

Jesus(may His peace be upon all of us) never proclaimed satan words.

Paul.

Simon said...

nabeel

i have a question for u? nabeel when u were a muslim. wut did u think of the scriptures in the quran for instance aisha and muhammad, killing of the non muslims jews and chrsitians for a fact. and the satanic verses and muhammad proclaiming to be a prophet? were u brainwashed like the rest of the redical muslims around the world or were u a westerner muslim who didnt believe in practice them for example suiciding bombing and heavenly virgins? also while u were reading the quran did u find some of the scriptures to be very confusing and heavy?

leviMichael said...

ashraf said:
by the way see what your bible talks about satan's temptation to GOD ( see according to you he is not just a man)

same old arguments from deedat (which has been refuted many times); pitty his lame arguments didn't die with him...

it is obvious that u don't understand the meaning of temptation in its context...

let me show u that i can tempt ur allah...

allah, make me rich and in return, i will spread islam...

see, i tempted ur god; does this mean that allah is going to give in? no...the tempting was from my side...i hope u understand...

btw, even if u r able to refute what i just said, it doesn't matter bcos Jesus was also man and being a man he was tempted but he overcame; in the Bible, it is not a sin to be tempted, it is a sin to give into it!

think about this, ashraf, Jesus was offered the entire world; all the kingdoms; all the women; all the food; all the slaves-without even working for it!

whereas, muhammad had to work for his stuff and only in arabia!

so, who had the greater temptation? who was more likely to give in?

ashraf said...

Mr.Paul Guralivu

Thanks for your comments,regarding the temptation we muslims too explained in many occassions but, still your scholars!! see how they react in this video.so it's better to advice your speakers not me.

leviMichael said:

same old arguments from deedat (which has been refuted many times); pitty his lame arguments didn't die with him...

what to do levi when you carry same old bible in your hand.

Fernando said...

No ashraf... Jeus was tempted, butt did not felt under temptation... muhamamd was tempted and felt under temptation... thats a BIG difference tahte justifies whate was saide in this video...

Paul Guralivu said...

To ashraf:

While I understand your point(that being that since the matter was answered why do christians still talk about it).

But there are a few problems about the two accounts:
a.in the Holy Bible Satan words were in his(satan's) mouth, and not Jesus(may His peace be upon us all).
Jesus refuted them.

While Ibn Ishaq testify to us that the satanic verses were in the mouth of Muhammad. So it's not the same thing.

b.As for the answers received from the muslims scholars. The problem is that they are so different and even more they are based on arguments that doesn't invalidate the event.

For example:
"Haykal points out the many forms and versions of the story and their inconsistencies."

It's true if the there are more stories about the event and there are inconsistencies then we can;t know for sure, but that doesnt invalidate the story from being true.

More:
if all the stories have some common elements like:
Muhammad-prophet of Allah
satanic verses-Muhammad's mouth
3 gods in all the story.

Then we can see a strong ground for believing it.
We all know that oral transmission alters the stories that are sent, but if ALL the stories have the main line and can be traced back to Muhammad, then it's likely that's true.

There are other muslims that accept that but they think of it as a mistake done by the prophet Muhammad.

As I recall: to associate partners with Allah is a BIG sin(shirk).
SO it's not a small mistake.

And if the story took place in the context that was told: Muhammad wishing to win the favour of pagans tribes, then again problems with the honestity of his prophethood.

Paul.

leviMichael said...

ashraf said:
what to do levi when you carry same old bible in your hand

thanx for admitting the FACT that the Bible is the same and hasn't been corrupted like muslims claim...

also, the Bible is not just old, but ancient and has stood the test of time...

thanx for confirming these things about the Bible.

Now, what about the other things I addressed?