Saturday, December 6, 2008

Daniel Scot vs. Nadir Ahmed: "Is Christianity a Religion of Peace?"

Nadir likes to post deceptive intros to his videos, and this debate with Daniel Scot is no exception. Nadir declares that Sam Shamoun agreed to debate him on Old Testament violence, and that Sam is too scared to do so. In reality, Sam ageed to debate two topics with Nadir: (1) Old Testament violence, and (2) the Prophethood of Muhammad. It turns out that Nadir refuses to defend Muhammad in a public debate with Sam, and Sam will not debate Old Testament violence until Nadir agrees to defend Muhammad. In other words, Sam Shamoun is the one who wants to debate, and Nadir Ahmed is the one backing down.

(On a different note, I would say that Nadir's embarrassing losses to James White and Sam Shamoun have ended his career, and that no one is under any obligation to debate Nadir. Even Muslims turned against him in both of those debates, and most Muslims will no longer attend a debate if Nadir is a participant.)

In the following debate, Nadir, like most other Muslim apologists, condemns his own prophet. In Sunan Abu Dawud 4434, Muhammad put his hand on a copy of the Torah and swore that it's the Word of God. Nadir condemns the Old Testament and, in the process, condemns the prophet who declared that the Old Testament is the Word of God. Apart from this, Nadir shows that he doesn't have even a basic understanding of Christian doctrine (e.g. Old Covenant vs. New Covenant), and this debate was about Christianity. As viewers have seen in my debates with Sami Zaatari and Adnan Rashid, there isn't a single conceivable situation in which Christians would be called to commit violence.

Understandably, no one, whether Christian or Muslim, wants to see Nadir on stage again. For more on Nadir, visit his page at AI.

PART ONE


PART TWO


PART THREE

26 comments:

KeithTruth said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
KeithTruth said...

Daniel Scot did a good job of exposing Nadir. I think he does know that he is lying but he spouts falsehood and distortion anyway.

My answer to Nadirs stupid challenge on 2Timothy 3:16

2Ti 3:16 "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, or correction, for instruction in righteousness:"

Well in regards to the judgement of God upon the peoples I would say reproof is how it is pofitable. Reproof of course meaning evidence, proof etc.. The evidence the OT killings show is that God is all powerful and everyone is guilty and we need a savior.

There Nadir, challenge met.

debate score:

Daniel Scot (10)
Nadir Ahmed (2.5) (for lying and distorting the doctrine)

The Fat Man said...

God command the Israelites to commit genocide in the land of Cannan. In Exodus 23:31-33 God establishes the borders that are to become the Nation of Israelites, "from the sea of reads to the Sea of the Philistines, and from the desert to the River.". This is the land that God is giving the children of Abraham as a inheritance. In this land they are ordered to drive the people from the land, and not to make covenants with them or there gods. The reason for this is clear, in Gods own words "they will cause you to sin against me, because the worship of their gods will certainly be a snare to you."
They are ordered in Det 20:16-18, To kill everything that breathes. Men, woman, Children, and even Live Stock. God names the people to be destroyed by name, with in the borders that he himself establised.

So what can we learn from just these two verses.
1. The land is Gods to give.
2. The land is to be a place for him and the people he has chosen. No other people or Gods welcome.
3. No treaties, covenants, pacts, or taxes are to be made with the people. They all have to leave or die. No exeptions.
4. The reason for the extreame is clear, Idoletry will be a snare to the children of Abraham.

Now lets compare that to the final order given to mohamed on Killing.
First the order to fight and kill is not given any geographical boundries. No ethnic or national group is named.
Second there are exceptions. Woman and children are to be spared. To be taken captive made into wives, sex slaves, or sold directly into slavery. The slauther can stop if the pagans, choose to covernt to islam. Or in the case of christians and jews, if they surrendor in humulation and pay a tax. So this warfare that mohamed orderd is to spread islam, satisfy the carnal lusts of the muslims and make a proffit off those that are conqured through out the world.

In contrast, it can be determined that while the killing in the bible is ment to be complete and whole. The killing is limited to a geographical region of the world and to people that are named. You will not find anyware that the God orders the Children of Abraham to attack anyone outside of the well defined borders he established.
The reason is to establish Gods people, seperate and pure from the rest of the idolterous world. The violence is ment to satisfy Gods Justice, not the carnal lusts of men. Or fill the treasury with taxes, and proffits from a slave trade.
Studying on this has made me even more aware of how powerful the one true living God is, and how teribal is his justice. There is no bargining or buying off the one true living god when it comes to his justice. "It is a terable thing to fall into the hands of the living God".
I thank God that I have the mercy of Christ, to satisfy the pure justice of God.

Nadir Ahmed said...

My goodness David , you must stop with these born again lies.

I would *love* to debate Sam Shamoun on Is Muhammed(P) a Prophet... and I called for a public meeting to discuss this debate with him.

Do you know his response? He said if I contact him again... he will call the police on me :)

But the situation gets worse - I stopped by his office to talk about debating this subject... and there I was greeted by his "brother in Christ" named Cicero.. and there is physically assaulted me.

When I called for this coward Shamoun to come out... Cicero began shoving me... and was about to cock his hand back to take a swing... I then said.. "wo... listen I'm sorry.. ok.. cool down.." but he shoved me again.. this time harder...

So I did the unthinkable - I said.. "ok.. listen.. I'm sorry about what I said about Sam.. sorrry man.. ok?"

at that point Cicero calmed down..

I filed a police report.. but after the incident.. because I did promise Cicero that I would not get him arrested.

Here is where the incident happened:

http://www.safc.citymax.com/contact.html

But I am ready anytime to debate this topic with this coward Sam Shamoun

Thanks,
Nadir Ahmed
www.ExamineTheTruth.com

KeithTruth said...

Nadir,

You are just making up silly stories. Get real lol.

Nadir Ahmed said...

well.. no.. why don't you call South Asian Christian friendship center and ask for Cicero.. here is the phone number:
(773) 764-6846

Or you can contact Shamoun...and if I am right.. then the least I should get is an apology from AI.



but that is besides the point - I am ready to debate Is Muhammed(P) a Prophet and I have been calling for a public meeting on this to discuss this. But this coward Shamoun has been running away.

David Wood said...

Nadir,

I'll ask Sam about this next time I talk to him. However, if Sam or anyone else refuses to debate you after you completely embarrassed yourself in your debate with James White, who's going to blame them? Christians are sick of you. Muslims are sick of you. Anyone who arranges a debate with you gets a ton of complaints from Muslims, saying, "Why do you keep getting Nadir Ahmed to debate? You're clearly just trying to score cheap debate points against a weak opponent that we don't support."

With that said, I'd be happy to debate you. However, last I heard, you were asked to debate me in March on the "archaeological, prophetic, and scientific evidence for the Qur'an," and yet you backed down. Any comments?

The Fat Man said...

Nadir, you sound like a real pest. How you ever made it out of highschool and into your thirties is beyond me. The only thing worse then a pest is a pest who is a cry baby. You showed up un announced to a mans place of work, created a big scene and when someone forcibaly removes you from the building, you go crying on the internet and to the police.

Nadir one of these days your going to annoy the wrong person at the wrong time.

The older you get the longer it takes and the harder it is to heal, and hospital bills can get expensive.

Nadir Ahmed said...

David - it is really amazing to see how Christianity has turned you into such a pathological liar...

The real reason why the Christians apologists are hiding in their rat holes is because the evidence presented by ExamineTheTruth.cm is unchallengable... and I have chased them into their holes where they belong.

Alhamdulilah... I have many who support my site but all that is besides the point - it is the arguments which we present which should be the focus.

1. How did James White prove Paul was reliable?

2. Where again was GTTF in Islam?

etc..

the truth claims of Islam and Christiainity can be easily debating in front of world audience via www.paltalk.com .. but note - it is the Christians who are running away.. with their silly excuses ;) suuuuuuure.

But I am ready at the drop of a hat!

And what did I do which was sooooooooo bad in the James WHite debate? White was humiliatd and smashed and sent home crying.. that is what I remember.

As for our debate on the evidence for Islam AND Christianity... I will be out of the country in March.. if we can make it for late in the summer/fall that would be good.

It's all about the *evidence*.. not personalities.. dont be fooled by these born again tricks.

As was clearly proven in the James White debate.. Christianity is 100% blind faith... and that means that there is NOT a single good reason why anyone should even entertain the thought.. that maybe this might be true, while all the evidence favors Islam.

I am ready to defend my position anytime

Thanks,
Nadir Ahmed
www.ExamineTheTruth.com

David Wood said...

Nadir, let me explain something to you about your debate with James White. After the debate, Muslims and Christians filled out ballots, explaining who they thought won the debate. If I recall correctly, 100% of the audience said you lost. That's right--a room full of Christians and Muslims unanimously agreed that you lost. And yet you run around claiming that you somehow smashed James in that debate.

Nadir, for some reason, you believe that your opinion is the only one that counts. That is, if Christians and Muslims agree that your debate skills are pathetic, it doesn't matter to you, provided you've deluded yourself into thinking that you did a good job.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again now--your career is over. I'm the only person on the planet willing to debate you, and I'm only willing to do it for the practice. I hope you enjoy your current line of work.

Taylor said...

David, I think that you ought to respect the wishes of Muslims and not debate Nadir. If Muslims don't want him representing Islam, then please out of courtesy for them, do not embarrass them any further. Put yourself in their shoes. You as a Christian would not want an embarrassment to the Christian community representing you or Christianity publicly.

Hogan Elijah Hagbard said...

Nadir Ahmed wrote

The real reason why the Christians apologists are hiding in their rat holes is because the evidence presented by ExamineTheTruth.cm is unchallengable... and I have chased them into their holes where they belong.

Elijah replied:

What evidence? I have read your website, it is pure trash, and a bunch of ridicolous articles with the greatest percentage of your material consisting of personal insults and attack of individuals. Not very scholarly in anybodies opinion except for yours.

My website should be up and running after Christmas, I intend to include an entire section to expose your trash and the proposition of other muslims; but the difference between your website and theirs is: theirs is misconception yours is trash. Lets call it what it is.

Keep in mind I have not called you trash or foolish (before you accuse me of that). I am referring to your material as trash.

Joel said...

David Wood writes: "(On a different note, I would say that Nadir's embarrassing losses to James White and Sam Shamoun have ended his career, and that no one is under any obligation to debate Nadir. Even Muslims turned against him in both of those debates, and most Muslims will no longer attend a debate if Nadir is a participant.)"

It's clear to me that, even aside from my obvious biases, Nadir Ahmed is just a horrible debater. I've seen debates with Shabir Ally and Adnan Rashid, and although I think they're presentations are incredibly inconsistent and self-contradictory, they do at least possess a level of competence in debate. Mr. Ahmed on the other hand couldn't debate himself out of a paper bag. And yet many of the Muslims I have interacted with on YouTube about this don't agree, or at least they pretend that the don't agree out of allegiance to their Muslim brother. I hope that's the case, because I simply don't understand how anyone, Muslim or non-Muslim, could watch the debates Nadir Ahmed has had with Sam Shamoun and James White (among others) and actually think that Ahmed got anywhere close to winning any of them.

If Nadir Ahmed really wants to advance the Muslim cause, my advice to him would be to stop doing debates before he embarrasses himself and his religion any further.

ben malik said...

I took Nadir's advice and spoke with Cicero and Nadir is lying through his teetha which we already knew . He came telling Cicero that he is the greatest debater and that everyone is running from him. Cicero pretty much told him how great he really was and tried to physically attack Cicero which Cicero easily deflected and blocked, asending the coward Nadir running away with his skirt.

I advise folks to talk to Cicero to expose this terrorist who goes around trying to terroize people.

Folks, you are talking to someone that I am now is convinced is demonized like Muhammad was. He is no better than Muhammad since both of these liars were narcissists.

His career is over and Nadir knows it. That is why he has to go around challenging people to debate since his ego is eating him alive that no one is taking this narcissist seriously.

David Wood said...

Nadir complained about Cicero. Cicero emailed me his version of things. So that readers may examine both sides of the story, here is Cicero's account:

First off, the one he likes to call a coward wasn’t even there, that being SAM (MY BROTHER IN CHRIST I AM PROUD TO SAY!)—the one who took NADIR under his wing to tutor him about the LORD JESUS and treated him as a brother, feeding him and looking after him. Now SAM sometimes can talk a little rough, but that’s just his Middle Eastern way. NADIR was no doubt slighted by this and instead of being a man started on his quest to become a self-proclaimed apologist in order to get back at SAM. This plan has however backfired and has done more damage to ISLAM than all the Apologists together, and it has also left Muslims pleading and begging NADIR not to represent them—some even threatening him. I haven’t ever in my life felt pity for the Muslims as I have the moment I found out that this ungrateful stooge was stepping up to defend them. May THE LORD JESUS first deliver the Muslims from NADIR and HELP THEM ALL.

Now to set the record straight, NADIR came by hopping around as one possessed by demons! His manner and childish behavior would have set a world record for the sum total of all that is stupid and a waste of time. SAM was not even around and has not been for a long time. NADIR comes by screaming that he has not lost but that he has won the debate and that SAM was a coward. NADIR is lucky that the LORD watches over even fools and I told him that it is one thing for people to think he’s a fool but that he shouldn’t open his mouth and remove all doubt. This made him angry, causing him to raise his fist and throw a punch. I simply blocked his hit and delivered two of my own, after which he went flying back saying that he isn’t a violent man. NO? You could have fooled me! What do you call trying to hit me? A pat on the back? A handshake? After that he told me he would call the police. I told him to go ahead and call them. Only then did he tell me that he wouldn’t do that. The store he referred to seldom does SAM ever come there and NADIR knows this; that is how he got up the courage to do what he calls calling him out.

In conclusion, NADIR ATTACKED ME. I WAS SIMPLY DEFENDING MYSELF. I see him as an unstable, disturbed, violent man whose agenda is to make up stories that portray him as this great Muslim apologist who all Muslims will admire. Please NADIR, get out of your fantasy world and get out of the arena where apologists debate!

Yahya Hayder Seymour said...

Firstly,

Passing off Sam's explosive temper problems which have impacted on his reputation as being "his middle eastern ways" are not really a genuine excuse, seems like the Holy Spirit remains unable to transcend culture and annihilate negative traits of one's cultural background. I'm not trying to throw dirt on the guy here, and he knows my opinion of his temper tantrums, and well I feel that you as Christians shouldn't justify anyone's explosive outbursts, because the means do not justify the ends in this matter.

Secondly, why didn't Cicero turn the other cheek? I would condemn Nadir if he threw the first punch, however are the Christians willing to condemn some kind of harsher retaliation, i.e 2 for 1 strike.

KeithTruth said...

yahya,

Why didn't you address how big of a liar Nadir is? He claimed that Cicero pushed him after he called for Sam; but the truth is Nadir went bolistic when cicero said he wasn't a good debater. Nadir cocked back to throw a blow but it was easily stopped!

Anyway yahya, please condem that fool nadir so we know that you are not as decietful as him.

David Wood said...

Yahya said: "Passing off Sam's explosive temper problems which have impacted on his reputation as being "his middle eastern ways" are not really a genuine excuse, seems like the Holy Spirit remains unable to transcend culture and annihilate negative traits of one's cultural background."

Yahya, sometimes it take a while for us to grow as Christians. You act as if someone converts, then the Holy Spirit magically makes us perfect. If someone does something wrong, you conclude that the Holy Spirit is powerless and that Christianity is false. Absurd!

You said that the Spirit of God should transcend culture. Let's apply your reasoning to a more appropriate target. If Islam is true, shouldn't God's Spirit have guided Muhammad to transcend certain practices, e.g. sex with nine-year-old girls? This isn't some random Muslim I'm talking about. This is Muhammad.

Yahya said: "Secondly, why didn't Cicero turn the other cheek? I would condemn Nadir if he threw the first punch, however are the Christians willing to condemn some kind of harsher retaliation, i.e 2 for 1 strike."

Well, Christians differ on the interpretation of "turn the other cheek." Strictly speaking, the text only refers to being slapped in the face, which is more of an insult than an assault. So some believe that Christians are free to defend themselves with force. I take it that Cicero is in this category. While I believe that Christians can defend themselves in certain situations, I have to say that I'm not a fan of retaliating against Nadir. Honestly, I'd be more worried about fighting my grandmother than fighting Nadir. I think Cicero could easily have grabbed him with one hand and pinned him until he calmed down.

Sami Zaatari said...

is this a fight club or are we meant to be debating? all of you need to calm down, because everyone looks un-professional right now.

Nakdimon said...

WOW! Nadir, can’t you take a hint? It says a lot that people decline when you challenge people to a debate. And when you can’t take no for an answer you have to show up to people’s doorsteps (James White @ his church and Sam Shamoun @ his office) and make a scene to try to persuade them to finally get them to debate you. It’s amazing that you are able to track people down for this.

Talking about stubborn-ness.

Nakdimon said...

I have just listened to the debate and as I said before, I haven’t found the likes of this religion called Islam, that repells me as much as Islam does.

It is really sad that someone is SO desperate to twist the judgment of God in the book of Joshua and Samuel into a command to “born again Christians”. I will officially no longer listen to any debate of Nadir Ahmed. This guy is as fond of lying as the Devil himself. Should there be new editions of dictionaries, Nadir’s picture should be found to every book next to the definition “compulsive liar”.

Nadir Ahmed is truly TAQIYAH INCARNATE!

Nadir Ahmed said...

So now Cicero is claiming that I hit him? :-)

Well, I guess there is only one way to find out who is lying. I am willing to take a polygraph test:

http://www.centralpolygraph.com/

Therefore, contact Cicero and we will both submit ourselves to this test.

However, I assure you that he will refuse... because he is lying.

The truth is exactly as how I stated it.

Ok.. now is the time for the pathetic excuses of why the Christians refuse to take this challenge ;-)

I am ready anytime, let me know

Thanks,
Nadir Ahmed
www.ExamineTheTruth.com

KeithTruth said...

Nadir,

Just because your local al queada terrorist cell trained you how to pass a lie detector doesn't prove anything.

I know by the way you told Osama abdullah how you would smash his eye socket that when you and cicero meet up you will probably bring a big group of muslims to gang up on him.

El-Cid said...

Nadir,

I, for one, find it unfortunate that you even get the venue of these comments to prance around like a drama queen.

This world will be a more balanced place when you no longer have anyone indulging your attention seeking behavior, and more importantly for you, YOUR LIFE will be better when you move on from the world of apologetics.

I say this with no malicious intent: People with narcissistic tendencies are not meant to be in apologetics.

You will be doing your opponents, the viewing audience, Islam, and more importantly YOURSELF a big favor by finding something else you are more suited to.

Haecceitas said...

I admit that I only listened to two thirds of this debate, as one of my mp3 conversion files was deficient in some way. But based on the parts that I heard, I'd say that Nadir's presentation was a mixture of not bad but not excellent points that most non-christians would make in arguing against the "OT atrocities" etc, coupled with some downright absurdities (the characterization of the OT Israel as consisting of born-again Christians killing in the name of Jesus). I can well imagine that some Muslims with little firsthand knowledge of the Bible could find his arguments somewhat believable though.

blackreformingkid said...

I'm 18 years old (still feel like 17 since it was just this past Sunday). I would NEVER treat anyone the way Nadir treats people in debate settings - the man is rude, ignorant of Christian doctrine and frankly tries to wind people up.

I have watched his debate with Sam Shamoun, where he tried to exploit Shamoun's temper (which he remarkably held in tow to the praise of our God) by making broadbrush statements about the OT. I also watched his debate with Dr. White, where he was arguing with someone during the debate (and despite Dr. White's rather humble pleadings to have respect for the audience).

Nadir, if you get to read this, please examine your motives as to why you debate at all. I've been in four public debates - one of which was with a Muslim on the topic of original sin. While I disagreed with the Muslim who debated me, she was courteous, respectful and even apologised at times when she got carried away. You, on the other hand, continually disrespect the people you debate.

Again, I plead with you sir, as a young Christian, please contemplate whether you should be doing this.

In Christ my Saviour,

Douglas