Sunday, November 30, 2008

Adnan Rashid vs. David Wood: "Peace and Violence In Christianity and Islam"

It was a pleasure working with Adnan Rashid (and the other Muslim apologists in the UK). He was very kind and pleasant, as were nearly all the Muslims I met in London. I look forward to many more debates on the other side of the Atlantic.

While watching this debate, we would do well to ask ourselves, “How many ways does Adnan condemn his own religion (in his desperate effort to condemn mine)?” Let me count the ways.

(1) Adnan condemns the Old Testament, which (a) he used as evidence for Islam in his opening statement, and (b) his own prophet declared to be the Word of God (in both the Qur’an and the Hadith). Thus, since Muhammad approved of such a book, he must not be a prophet.

(2) Adnan declares that the true God would never kill a child; yet, according to the Qur’an, God destroyed Sodom with fire and flooded the world in the time of Noah (and some children were presumably present). Since the true God would never do this, the God of the Qur'an cannot be the true God.

(3) Adnan declares that the true God would never order a human being to kill a child, despite the fact that one of Allah’s “servants” does just that in Surah 18. Once again, the God of the Qur'an cannot be the true God.

(4) Adnan condemns me for saying that I would kill if, contrary to what God has actually commanded me, He had instead commanded me to kill. In doing so, Adnan condemns the prophet Abraham, who was willing to kill his own son at God’s command. If we agree with Adnan, we would have to say that any book that praises Abraham's (wicked) behavior cannot come from God. Thus, the Qur'an cannot be the Word of God.

We can add other inconsistencies to this list. For instance, Adnan accuses me of only pointing to the negative aspects of Islam, and he then proceeds to degrade Christianity in every possible way. Adnan says that Christianity is violent because Catholics and Protestants once fought (despite the fact that they did so in violation of Christ's teachings), yet it never occurs to Adnan to apply his reasoning to Sunnis and Shias. Adnan points to a handful of Christian thinkers down through the ages who have advocated some form of violence, and he holds that this shows that Christianity is violent (despite the fact that these thinkers are ignoring Christ's teachings). Yet I could easily give him a massive list of Muslim scholars who advocate violence (and who do so in complete harmony with the Qur'an). Adnan points to violent acts committed in the name of Christianity as if this proves that Christianity is violent (despite the fact that such acts are committed in strict violation of Christ's teachings), yet he would never allow me to point to acts of terrorism committed in the name of Islam as proof that Islam is violent (and I wouldn't do this anyway).

As James White often says, “I’m still waiting for the consistent Muslim” (i.e. the Muslim who applies the same criticisms to Islam that he applies to Christianity).

Inconsistencies aside, this debate teaches us four things. First, Islam’s sources command Muslims to fight anyone who (a) doesn’t accept Islam, or (b) refuses to pay the Jizya in complete humiliation. Second, Christianity’s source commands Christians, repeatedly, to live in peace with everyone. Third, no matter how many times I use the same material, Muslims still can’t offer a good response. Fourth, when Muslims get nervous, they cheer more (notice how many times the Muslims burst into applause for no reason whatsoever).

ADNAN'S OPENING STATEMENT


DAVID'S OPENING STATEMENT


1ST REBUTTALS


2ND REBUTTALS


Q&A/CONCLUSIONS


For more on this issue, see Sam Shamoun's debate with Nadir Ahmed ("Is Islam a Religion of Peace?", and my debates with Sami Zaatari ("Is Islam a Religion of Peace?" and "Is Christianity a Religion of Peace?")

19 comments:

LouisJ-B said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Fernando said...

Doctor Wood... keep oup the good job... may the grace of our Lord, Savioure and God Jesus Christ be with you...

David Wood said...

Fernando,

Thank you. (But I've got a few months left before I'm "doctor.")

KeithTruth said...

Wow. This was a strong statement of where the issue of peace in our world views differ. On the one hand you have a religion who's followers are called to love their enemies, pray to those who persecute you, and love thy neighbor.

On the other hand you have a religion that when out-numbered only acts peaceful out of deception because that is what they are told to do. Then once they get control they show their true colors which is domination and submission of people who don't believe the same as them. They even go as far as to condone murdering apostates and unbelievers in many sources. Although this is at the heart of the religion, the true God Yahwey has provided many muslims objective senses to distance themselves from the evil of Islam. That is why many muslims are peaceful.

Awesome exhange David. You are doing a great work for the Lord.

Nakdimon said...

David,

Man, this debate was extremely solid. I'm starting to like you more and more as a debater. Every time your opponent raises a point, I'm thinking "if I was there, I would tackle this argument this way and that argument that way". And then you come up to the mic and most of the time you address the points exactly as I was thinking.

But just for kicks, David... Next time if you have a debate on this topic, you might want to settle the debate on the point of "what is the greatest commandment in Islam and Christianity".

Our greatest commandment is love of God above all and mankind as ourselves. But in Islam it is JIHAAD:

From Malik’s Muwatta Book 21 Jihad

Yahya related to me from Malik from Abu'z-Zinad from al-Araj from Abu Hurayra that the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said "Someone who does jihad in the way of Allah is like someone who fasts and prays constantly and who does not slacken from his prayer and fasting until he returns." (#21.1.2)

Yahya related to me from Abdullah ibn Abd ar-Rahman ibn Mamar al-Ansari that Ata ibn Yasar said that the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, "Shall I tell you who has the best degree among people? A man who takes the rein of his horse to do jihad in the way of Allah. Shall I tell you who has the best degree among people after him? A man who lives alone with a few sheep, performs the prayer, pays the zakat, and worships Allah without associating anything with him." (#21.1.4)

From Bukhari Volume 4 book 52

Narrated Abu Huraira:A man came to Allah's Apostle and said, "Instruct me as to such a deed as equals Jihad (in reward)." He replied, "I do not find such a deed." Then he added, "Can you, while the Muslim fighter is in the battle-field, enter your mosque to perform prayers without cease and fast and never break your fast?" The man said, "But who can do that?" Abu- Huraira added, "The Mujahid (i.e. Muslim fighter) is rewarded even for the footsteps of his horse while it wanders bout (for grazing) tied in a long rope." (#44)

Narrated Abu Huraira: Somebody asked, "O Allah's Apostle! Who is the best among the people?" Allah's Apostle replied "A believer who strives his utmost in Allah's Cause with his life and property." They asked, "Who is next?" He replied, "A believer who stays in one of the mountain paths worshipping Allah and leaving the people secure from his mischief." (#45)

Narrated Abu Huraira: I heard Allah's Apostle saying, "The example of a Mujahid in Allah's Cause-- and Allah knows better who really strives in His Cause----is like a person who fasts and prays continuously. Allah guarantees that He will admit the Mujahid in His Cause into Paradise if he is killed, otherwise He will return him to his home safely with rewards and war booty." (#46)


These are a nail in Islam's peacful coffin!


Nakdimon

sup said...

David, I don't know if you knew this,but Dr.James White's debate with Adnan is available on youtube. Maybe you'd be interested in posting it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mv2C4-sbsDk

David Wood said...

Nakdimon,

I think I brought up the greatest commandment issue in my debate with Sami on whether Christianity is a religion of peace. I compared 1 Corinthians 13 (where "the greatest of these is love") with Muhammad's claim that jihad is the greatest thing in the world.

David Wood said...

Sup,

I'll definitely post James's debate with Adnan. I didn't get a chance to see it, but I hear that things didn't go very well for the Muslim position.

Nakdimon said...

David, I know. But I mean put the ball in their court. Ask them to answer that question: What is the greatest commandment in Islam?

that would be hilarious.

David Wood said...

Nakdimon,

The problem is that the Muslim sources are incredibly inconsistent. If you ask, "What is the greatest commandment?" you'll get a bunch of different answers. In the "Jihad" section of al-Bukhari, there are several different views of the importance of Jihad. Muhammad's rules tended to depend on the situation he was in.

Carl said...

For whatever it's worth, I am glad to have found this blog and have added it to my blog's blogroll. I am an active participant on various Christian Usenet newsgroups and have encountered a supposed Muslim "apologist" using the nick "arah." As with many Islamic apologists, this "arah" tends to try to avoid anything that refutes his points or contradicts his claims while at the same time this "arah" attacks Christianity using the same old tactics and inconsistancies (e.g. -- attacking the Bible, confusing Protestant Christianity with Roman Catholicism, misstating either intentionally or unintentionally basic Christian doctrines, etc.). I refer to this character as "this arah" because I have found the posts from this ident to be wildly fluctuating in regards to the quality of grammar and spelling. In some posts, the grammar and spelling indicate someone that knows limited English while other posts from the same ident are quite advanced in terms of grammar, punctuation and spelling. This leads me to believe multiple individuals are posting under the ident "arah." In case anyone's interested in reading some of this character's posts, just go to Google Newsgroups and do a search on "arah" (organize by date for the most recent) and you will see what the average Christian is faced with.

Carl said...

"Muhammad's rules tended to depend on the situation he was in."

Sort of an Islamic version of situational ethics, eh?

VJ said...

hi david
i hope you have got the news that dr zakir naik is facing ban of his public talks..please post this in the blog
here is the link
http://sunninews.wordpress.com/2008/11/13/sunni-muslims-demand-ban-of-zakir-naik%E2%80%99s-talk/

Nakdimon said...

VJ said:
Members complained that on many occasions Naik had urged crowds to pray to Allah alone instead of Prophet Mohammed Paigambar, as he claims the prophet is human.


WHAT??? Zakir Naik tells muslims to pray to Allah alone INSTEAD of Prophet Muhammad??? And Sunnis don’t agree???? Zakir Naik CLAIMS the prophet is human and Sunnis don’t agree???

This is mindboggling!!! Muhammad is getting more and more like Yeshua in the New Testament.

First he was just a messenger, then he promoted to apostle, then he promoted to prophet, then he promoted to Holy Prophet, then he promoted to Lord (as Jalal Abualrub puts it), now he is nearly divine, practically second to Allah alone! Next step, Muhammad as co-creator, perhaps?????

Muslims need to stop plagiarizing. And FAST!

george said...

brother david ,iam from india .debate was wonderful and i think if any muslim just campare word and deed of both muhammad and jesus wud understand the truth.
bro.david when i see you doing gud job ,all i realize is my answers to my prayers where i asked God always to raise christian debaters.thanks bro.keep it up
www.sakshitimes.com

MikeAndDebbiesCorner said...

GOOD JOB DAVID !,
GOD BLESS........

Sunil said...

The atrocities in the name of Jesus and the church were committed at an age when there was no printing press and the few powerful who had access to scriptures abused their power and misled the masses. The invention of printing press (and hence easy printing and distribution of scriptures in various languages and other writings of true Christians) is often cited as the main reason why the reformation was a success when it actually did (while earlier movements by people like Peter Waldo, Wycliffe, John Huss etc failed to take off in a big way). So, the more the access to the scriptures, the more the Christians honestly opened up to criticism and reformed and gave up the wrong doings. Similarly, in the globalized world, the more the church/christians came in contact with various criticisms, religions, cultures etc, the more church is getting itself sanitized and repenting for its sins and owning up to its mistakes and reforming all the more.

The impact of these developments on Islam seems to be the exact opposite. The more the people become aware of the Quran, the hadiths, the early orthodox islamic writings etc and more there is contact with diverse religions/cultures/criticisms etc, the more violent it is getting.

David, thanks for doing your home work and the great debate.

shafsha said...

My Dear Brother in Christ, David

Nice debate, but still facing islamic inconsistency, and this one caps them all so far !! not even a single good trial from a muslim side to provide a logical answer :S

Bad thing is, I noticed little verbal hostility, and not abiding to common sense rules.

But all of this is expected from a muslim :(

I am just afraid that they starting getting annoyed of you, so they might assault or harm u physical. Plz next time , make sure there is enough security

GOD BLESS YOU

WARUNG POJOK said...

after heard the debate, i find that bro wood presentation was a solid n unbreakable, well research for both religion islam n christianity. For bro adnan it seems to me for some point he tried to interpret everything by himself rather than well known n respectful islam scholar in the muslim world (i don't know why he do that).
Since when Jesus order to kill children n woman, if he said in OT 'cause we recognize him a devine, well as far as i know name of JESUS was introduce in NT by angel to maryam.
Agreed with bro wood, until the end of the debate i hardly couldn't find any convincing argument from bro adnan related to wood argument about peace n violance in islam base on his reliable book which is Koran, i meant did islam most holy book can not counter that argument clearly with no some present interpretation which is not supported with solid references.
Finally from this debate at least would teach all of peoples (islam or christian) to open their mind n without any prejudice to make comparison n search the truth of salvation, 'cause everyone responsible on their own life not 'cause somebody told us to do that or this. I believe in some point the Lord GOD almighty would reveal to whom seek HIM honestly.
God Bless Us All