According to the Qur'an, Christians commit shirk because we believe in the Trinity. Yet it is clear that Muhammad (and, apparently, Allah) had no clue what Christians actually believe. According to the Qur'an, Christians believe in a Trinity made up of God, Jesus, and Mary, and they're three separate gods (5:116-117)! (Note: If the Qur'an were the Word of God, we would expect it to accurately represent what we believe.)
No Christians believe that Mary is part of the Trinity. Moreover, belief in the Trinity is thoroughly monotheistic. Hence, the question arises: When our belief is represented accurately, does it necessiate shirk? Of course not. Put simply, if God is a Trinity (which He is), then believing in the Trinity is not shirk, for no partners are being associated with the one True God.
Nice debate. Adnan is VERY inconsistent, btw.
But the following video is SO HILARIOUS, but SO TRUE
On the real, this was a solid debate for James. I think James makes a strong case that the doctrine of the Trinity is not defined nor accurately refuted in the Quran. However, I could not with a straight face defend Catholicism on stage like White did. It may not be official catholic doctrine, but Catholics do worship Mary in practice. Catholicism makes the apologist's job harder when they fool around and add books that the Jews rejected to the Bible and start erecting other mediators between God and man.
James's point was quite valid. Christian-Muslim discussions on this issue go like this:
CHRISTIAN: "We believe in the Trinity."
MUSLIM: "Ha! This is shirk! According to the Qur'an, you believe in a Trinity made up of God, Jesus, and Mary, and they're three separate Gods!"
CHRISTIAN: "Actually, that's not what we believe at all. The author of the Qur'an clearly had no clue what Christians believe."
MUSLIM: "No! Some Catholics pray to Mary. So it's clear that you worship Mary as part of the Trinity. The Qur'an is not wrong!"
CHRISTIAN: "Well, some Catholics do this, but even they don't consider Mary to be part of the Trinity. So, once again, the Qur'an is completely wrong."
Sami Zaatari has completelty demolished your arguments!
That was a joke btw. :-)
And don't forget, Dave, that many Muslims also pray to Muhammad. So if this proves that Mary is part of the Trinity then this also shows that Mo is partners with Allah and makes up a crucial part of tawheed.
And don't forget, Dave, that many Muslims also pray to Muhammad.
Are you kidding me???
Muslims pray to Mary?? I didn't know that at all!
What Muslims do this?
Didn't say Muslims pray to Mary but to Muhammad.
If you like simply do a search for tawassul and see what you find. Here is one link in particular:
Sam Shamoun has written extensively on this subect so you may want to check out his articles.
It seems to me that taking the cultural and historic milieu in which Muhammad lived, it is LIKELY that the majority (if not all) of the Quranic polemics against "associating partners" with Allah actually relate to al-Uzza, al-Lat, and Minat (the daughters of Allah worshipped by the Arabian polytheists).
The remaining polemics that are directed from Muhammad at Christianity are logically filtered through his cultural perspective in that Muhammad would have been predisposed to assuming the Trinity (with it's concept of a 'Son' of God) was in fact identical to the concept of "daughters of Allah" as separate deities.
Hi, David Wood I may not agree with the statement: //According to the Qur'an, Christians believe in a Trinity made up of God, Jesus, and Mary, and they're three separate gods (5:116-117)! (Note: If the Qur'an were the Word of God, we would expect it to accurately represent what we believe.)// because as far as I've studied ,the Holy Quran no where mentions that the doctrine of the Trinity consists of Allah, Jesus and Mary.Since you provided us with the reference so I checked the verse you quoted and found it as : "And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst say unto men,
'Worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah'?" He will say: "Glory
to Thee! Never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a
thing, Thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart,
though I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is
It only speaks in terms of the divinity of Jesus and Mary, it does not say that the Christian's doctrine of the trinity consists of Allah, Jesus and Mary. If one checks Surah 9:31 it speaks: "They take their priests and their anchorites to be their lords in derogation
of Allah, and [they take as their Lord] Christ the son of Mary; yet they were
commanded to worship but One Allah: there is no god but He. Praise and glory to
Him: [Far is He] from having the partners they associate [with Him]." This passage of the Quran speaks in terms of the divinity of priests/monks and Jesus. So why do not you conclude that according to the Quran the Christians believe in a trinity made up of Allah, Jesus and priests?
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