Saturday, October 18, 2014

Steven Crowder Responds to Talk Islam's Defense of Muhammad

In 2009, Steven Crowder posted his original "Qur'an Challenge," and he posted Part Two in 2013. The latter was subject to a variety of criticisms, to which Crowder and his friend Gerald Morgan Jr. respond:

I have one objection to the video—namely, that I don't see how Qur'an 4:6 or 24:59 establish puberty as a minimum age for marriage. Here's the first verse cited by Talk Islam:
Qur'an 4:6—Make trial of orphans until they reach the age of marriage; if then ye find sound judgment in them, release their property to them; but consume it not wastefully, nor in haste against their growing up. If the guardian is well-off, Let him claim no remuneration, but if he is poor, let him have for himself what is just and reasonable. When ye release their property to them, take witnesses in their presence: But all-sufficient is God in taking account.
This verse deals with caring for orphans. If you're put in charge of an orphan, and the orphan has an inheritance from his or her family, you are not to waste the inheritance money while caring for the orphan. Once the orphan has reached "the age of marriage," you are to hand over the inheritance. What does this have to do with men waiting until girls reach puberty before marrying them?

Here's the other verse (along with 24:58 for the context):
Qur'an 24:58-59—O you who believe! Let your slaves and slave-girls, and those among you who have not come to the age of puberty ask your permission on three occasions: before the Fajr prayer, and while you put off your clothes during the afternoon, and after the Isha' prayer. (These) three (times) are of privacy for you; other than these times there is no sin on you or on them to move about, attending to each other. Thus Allah makes clear the Ayat to you. And Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise. And when the children among you come to puberty, then let them (also) ask for permission, as those senior to them (in age) ask permission. Thus Allah makes clear His Ayat for you. And Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise.
This passage has nothing to do with marriage. It's about members of a household asking permission to enter someone's room when the person may be undressed or in bed. Here's Ibn Kathir's commentary on these verses:
These Ayat include a discussion of how people who are closely related should seek permission to enter upon one another. What was mentioned earlier in the Surah had to do with how unrelated people should seek permission to enter upon one another. Allah commanded the believers to ensure that their servants and their children who have not yet reached puberty should seek permission at three times: the first is before the Fajr prayer, because people are asleep in their beds at that time. (and while you put off your clothes during the afternoon,) means, at the time of rest, because a man may be in a state of undress with his wife at that time. (and after the `Isha' prayer.) because this is the time for sleep. Servants and children are commanded not to enter upon household members at these times, because it is feared that a man may be in an intimate situation with his wife and so on.
So Muslim critic from Talk Islam is either completely ignorant of the Qur'an, or he's deliberately trying to deceive his Muslim viewers.

Apart from this, we know that the Qur'an does allow Muslims to have sex with prepubescent girls. According to Surah 2:228, if a Muslim man wants to divorce his wife, he should wait until she has gone through three monthly cycles (i.e., three periods) in order to make sure that she isn't pregnant. But the question later arose: What about wives who do not have monthly cycles? How long should their husbands wait to divorce them? The Qur'an answers this question in Surah 65:4, where it gives divorce rules for (1) women who do not have monthly cycles because they are too old, (2) girls who do not have monthly cycles because they are too young, and (3) women and girls who do not have monthly cycles because they are pregnant. The verse declares that, if Muslim men want to divorce girls who haven't yet reached puberty, they must wait three months (after having sex with them). The verse reads:
Qur'an 65:4 (Hilali-Khan)—And those of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the 'Iddah (prescribed period), if you have doubts (about their periods), is three months, and for those who have no courses [(i.e. they are still immature) their 'Iddah (prescribed period) is three months likewise, except in case of death]. And for those who are pregnant (whether they are divorced or their husbands are dead), their 'Iddah (prescribed period) is until they deliver (their burdens), and whosoever fears Allah and keeps his duty to Him, He will make his matter easy for him.
In case there is confusion about the meaning of this verse, here are three classic Muslim commentaries on 65:4:
Tafsir Ibn Kathir—Allah the Exalted clarifies the waiting period of the woman in menopause. And that is the one whose menstruation has stopped due to her older age. Her `Iddah is three months instead of the three monthly cycles for those who menstruate, which is based upon the Ayah in (Surat) Al-Baqarah [see 2:228]. The same for the young, who have not reached the years of menstruation. Their `Iddah is three months like those in menopause.

Tafsir al-Jalalayn—And [as for] those of your women who (read allà'ï or allà'i in both instances) no longer expect to menstruate, if you have any doubts, about their waiting period, their prescribed [waiting] period shall be three months, and [also for] those who have not yet menstruated, because of their young age, their period shall [also] be three months.

Tafsir Ibn Abbas—(And for such of your women as despair of menstruation) because of old age, (if ye doubt) about their waiting period, (their period (of waiting) shall be three months) upon which another man asked: “O Messenger of Allah! What about the waiting period of those who do not have menstruation because they are too young?” (along with those who have it not) because of young age, their waiting period is three months.
Hence, the Qur'an clearly allows Muslims to have sex with prepubescent girls. And that's exactly what Muhammad did. Muslims who try to twist the Qur'an in order to avoid the obvious must therefore be ashamed of their prophet. I don't blame them.


David Ford said...

Questions for Muslims and Islam Sympathizers

"And for whatever verse We abrogate or cast into oblivion, We bring a better or the like of it; knowest thou not that God is powerful over everything?" -- Quran 2:106, Arberry translation

* do you believe God said this?
* do you know which comments in the Quran were abrogated, and which were not?

"This is the recompense of those who fight against God and His Messenger, and hasten about the earth, to do corruption there: they shall be slaughtered, or crucified, or their hands and feet shall alternately be struck off; or they shall be banished from the land." --5:33

* do you believe God said this?
* if 'yes': are you doing this? If you're not slaughtering crucifying amputating or banishing, what's stopping you from following that command of God?
* what's your opinion about ISIS slaughtering people?
* what's your opinion about ISIS crucifying people?

"Then, when the sacred months are drawn away, slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them, and confine them, and lie in wait for them at every place of ambush." -- 9:5

* do you believe God said this?

"Muhammad is the Messenger of God, and those who are with him are hard against the unbelievers, merciful one to another." -- 48:29

* do you believe God said this?
* are you:
"hard against the unbelievers"?
"merciful" to believers?

"Fight those who believe not in God and the Last Day…." -- 5:29

* do you believe God said this?

"We know what We have imposed upon them touching their wives and what their right hands own — that there may be no fault in thee; God is All-forgiving, All-compassionate. Thou mayest put off whom thou wilt of them, and whom thou wilt thou mayest take to thee; and if thou seekest any thou hast set aside there is no fault in thee. So it is likelier they will be comforted, and not sorrow, and every one of them will be well-pleased with what thou givest her. God knows what is in your hearts; God is All-knowing, All-clement. Thereafter women are not lawful to thee, neither for thee to take other wives in exchange for them, though their beauty please thee, except what thy right hand owns; God is watchful over everything." -- 33:50

* do you believe God said this?
* if you're a man: do you think it's OK to have intercourse with women that "thy right hand owns"?
* regarding "So it is likelier they will be comforted, and not sorrow, and every one of them will be well-pleased with what thou givest her," do you think the Yazidi women currently being raped by ISIS men are "well-pleased with what" the rapists are 'giving' to them?

Radical Moderate said...

This is one of the many many reasons I could never become a Muslim. The willing dishonesty that you have to do in order to defend this so called religion. Its just sad really just sad.

Make sure you all go to the guys youtube page and like his video as well as go to the Muslims youtube video and dislike his.

rivan said...

David, I wish they had you over for the rebuttals. I don't think they did a great job here. Huge mistake not to re butt the Sura 4:6 and 24:59, which was so easy to do, they just had to read it. Overall they could have been a little more aggressive and spent more time on the problem verses rather than on jokes.

David Ford said...

"Surely We have given thee [Muhammed? 'believers' in general?] a manifest victory, that God may forgive thee thy former and
thy latter sins, and complete His blessing upon thee, and guide thee on a straight path, and that God may help thee with mighty help." -- 48:1

"….the angels said, 'Mary, God gives thee good tidings of a Word from Him whose name is Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary; high honoured shall he be in this world and the next, near stationed to God. He shall speak to men in the cradle, and of age, and righteous he shall be.'"

Did Muhammed sin?
Did al-Nabia Isa sin?
Who was more righteous-- Muhammed, or al-Nabia Isa?
What is the significance of al-Nabia Isa's being called "Messiah"?-- what exactly does that mean?

The Quran says regarding al-Nabia Isa, "high honoured shall he be in this world and the next"; will Muhammed be "high honoured" in the afterlife?

In the afterlife, will Muhammed be in paradise?
In the afterlife, will al-Nabia Isa be in paradise?

Which of these 2 individuals is more likely to know how _you_ make it into paradise?:
1. Muhammed
2. al-Nabia Isa

"And He [God] will teach him [al-Nabia Isa] the Book, the Wisdom, the Torah, the Gospel, to be a Messenger to
the Children of Israel saying, "I have come to you with a sign from your Lord. I will create
for you out of clay as the likeness of a bird; then I will breathe into it, and it will be a bird, by
the leave of God. I will also heal the blind and the leper, and bring to life the dead, by the
leave of God. I will inform you too of what things you eat, and what you treasure up in your
houses. Surely in that is a sign for you, if you are believers. Likewise confirming the truth of
the Torah that is before me, and to make lawful to you certain things that before were
forbidden unto you. I have come to you with a sign from your Lord; so fear you God, and
obey you me. Surely God is my Lord and your Lord; so serve Him. This is a straight path".' -- 3:44

Al-Nabia Isa said he would "heal the blind and the leper, and bring to life the dead, by the leave of God"-- and he did so. What are the most-impressive miracles/ signs Muhammed did?

Al-Nabia Isa told "the Children of Israel" to "fear you God, and obey you me." Do you think the "Children of Israel" needed to obey al-Nabia Isa?
Do you seek to obey al-Nabia Isa? If 'no,' for what reason(s) do you not desire to obey al-Nabia Isa?

Al-Nabia Isa said he would "make lawful to you [the Children of Israel] certain things that before were forbidden unto you."
What are some of those things that al-Nabia Isa made lawful?

"If you fear that you will not act justly towards the orphans, marry such women as seem good
to you, two, three, four; but if you fear you will not be equitable, then only one, or what your
right hands own…." -- 4:3

Is it immoral for a man to have intercourse with 20 women that his "right hands own"?
Is it immoral to have 5 or more wives?
Do you think Muhammed's having over 10 wives is an example to emulate?

"It is not for you to hurt God's Messenger, neither to marry his wives after him, ever; surely that would be, in God's sight, a monstrous thing."

Do you believe God said this?

Tom said...

@David Ford

Thanks David, for laying it out, I believe in the question approach, as they(muslim) lack that ability very badly!
Will be using your presentation,

Dacritic said...

DF, nicely done. Perhaps you'd wanna join Dr Wood as an apologist too.

David Ford said...

[Dacritic]"DF, nicely done."

You're very kind.
I'm just getting started.

Some more questions to prepare are in the chapter "The Jesus Approach" in
Akins, Wade. 2011. _Sharing Your Faith With Muslims_ (USA: Hannibal Books), 189pp.

"Perhaps you'd wanna join Dr Wood as an apologist too."

During the years of dialoguing with atheists, things got to the point where all I did was give quotations and ask questions.

David Ford said...

[Tom]"Thanks David, for laying it out"

I had help, e.g. David Wood pointed out some good Quranic citations.

"I believe in the question approach"

It is an excellent approach. Statements can be sloughed off. But questions….. unanswered questions can gnaw away.

"as they (muslim) lack that ability very badly!"

Muslims that ask lots of questions apparently get sat down and told to accept things 'Because I said so!' It can be dangerous for a Muslim to ask questions-- but the questions remain, and we can add to the questions they have.

"Will be using your presentation,

Or better yet, make it your own, and then use it.
At a minimum you'd need to check my citations, and see if my quotations seem right.

Shlama. [Aramaic for Shalom.]