Saturday, July 5, 2014

Three Quran Verses Every Christian Should Know

Most Christians (myself included) don't have Sam Shamoun's computer-like brain to recall thousands of verses on command. Nevertheless, with a little effort, we can all learn some basic facts about Islam. In this short video, I present three Qur'an verses that every Christian should learn.


In case you'd like to copy them down, here are the verses:
Qur’an 4:157—They said (in boast), “We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah”—but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not.

Qur’an 5:47—Let the People of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel.

Qur’an 9:29—Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the Religion of Truth, from among the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

64 comments:

bazza31 said...

Hi David for me the greates lie in Islam is the first verse! From a historical view I've never heard of any historical evidence or doubt by anyone anywhere in history deny the crucifixion of our Lord! Oh I forgot except for the 1.5 billion Muslims who find it in their book and the source it was plagiarised from!! If I am mistaken please correct me!

Joseph said...

Excellent video sir, It was shared. the title of my sharing was "Ignorance is bliss" because so many of my friends claim to be educated, they have degrees left and right, but when it comes to seeing the root cause of the problems of the middle east, they say its economics. Its like Islam has a hold over them they don't even know about, and they allow it, in fear of political correctness.

DeWDriVes Z said...

but sir, injil is not that gospels of christians, then how?

Jerry Jones said...

The first verse mentions how Jews boasted after killing Jesus. It says that they could not kill Him. However, we Christians agree with that. Because according to the Gospel and secular historians, Jesus was not crucified by Jews, instead He was crucified by the Romans!

bob morane said...

hi david
did you make this video about one of my previous comment about the falsified bible?

About falsified bible i use this argument :

when quran got revealed to hammad, Allah said "S5v47". but the oldest gospel are codex vaticanus and sinaiticus (about 400After J-C)http://www.codexsinaiticus.org/en/
So allah has validated these codex, so they (muslims) can check if gospel has been corrupted or not.

When i used that to answer a salafist, my comment was erased....

Go on

nimra arain said...

I came across your video on youtube and i think as a muslim i should have a right to explain what exactly it
Means. The first ayat you quoted was actually explaining jesus crusifiction. According to quran and the ayat you quoted it meant that jesus was crusified but his soul was not there at the time we was hung on the cross as he was taken to heaven and he is still alive. According to quran and hadit it is clearly written that jesus will come back near the end of times. If he is dead and he was the one on the cross how he is going to come back. Secondly the second ayat you quoted was the following ayat of “46. And in their footsteps, We sent 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary) , confirming the Tauraat (Torah) that had come before him, and We gave him the Injeel (Gospel), in which was guidance and light and confirmation of the Tauraat (Torah) that had come before it, a guidance and an admonition for Al-Muttaqoon (the pious -- see V.2:2).” But there are other ayat in the quran which do say that the gospel is not in the orginal form as quran should confirm the teaching of torah and gospel.
Muslims are allowed to fight against people who do not belive in ones of allah and people who are astryed from wrong path. This was at the time when islam was not spread.
I personally have no offense about jews and christians just we all created by one god and we should follow his teaching.
Telling people that we dont have time to read through everything so just listen to these three things what quran says about christians is the pethatic move on your part as we all are answerable to Allah when we die. So before making biased videos and putting stuff out of context do let them know what you are qouting and what they wrre talking about.

Joseph said...

Nimra, if you let the Quran speak for itself, you probably wouldnt be a muslim. Instead, you have to take the quran out of context, then tell us, that we are taking your out of context interpretation, out of context!

Jesus, died on the cross and was raised 3 days later. I dont know how you missed that important part of doctrine. Thats how He is able to come back in bodily form.

Which Ayat are you referring to? one that came before? or after the quran instructs us to judge the quran by the torah? And even without that, if the quran supposedly parallels the torah in its "Original form", where is Atonement for Sin in the Quran?

Finally, if fighting against people was only for a specific time... Could you please explain to me Chapter 5:33? Which commands muslims to slaughter people who don't believe, or create "Mishchief"? Keep in mind the verse right before it is often used to defend Islam as an inherent "peaceful" religion. You can't have one verse be for all time, (Thats not even intended for you anyway, e.g. "Children of Israel") then the very NEXT verse be for a "SPECIFIC TIME".

Please explain. Thanks.

Isaac said...

Dear David,

This is a nice way of educating our Christian brothers & sisters as to what Islam is all about.

Dacritic said...

Okay, this is getting interesting. I think Joseph answered Nimra pretty well there. I wish to add something, Nimra said the command to fight was when Islam has not spread. Really? What do you mean by "not spread"? Was it at the time Muhammad was in Mekkah and couldn't even spread it? Or was it at the time when he was in Medinah, where he was establishing himself? Sources reveal that Surah 9, or Surah At-Taubah, was one of the later Surahs to be "revealed", if not the latest. At that time Muhammad has basically spread Islam through all of Arabia if not farther. Please go through David's three stages of Jihad video. But let's just assume you're right, that the command to fight was given when Islam has not spread. What gives Muhammad the right to fight unbelievers? Isn't that what jihadists/Islamic terrorists today are doing? So are you confirming Muhammad was a jihadist (well of course he was)?

On the flip side, we have asked this question, why are governments in certain countries becoming more lenient and receptive towards Syariah. I think I can see a bit of the answer. Islam is a militant religion. Now many "moderate" Muslims tell us that the command to fight is intellectual and not physical, or at least that is what they believe of their "edited" version of Islam. But still, the "fight" is there. Muslims try fight for their rights in non-Muslim dominant countries. Their women wear hijabs to supposedly show religious piousness. They cry "persecution" and ask for the authorities to relent. They want their own courts and law systems. In short, they are not ashamed, in fact, proud to be identified as Muslims. Now, I think Christians can emulate this. Make Christianity more militant. Stand up and fight for our rights. Be counted. Wear t-shirts with big crosses to declare our faith. Once you declare your faith publicly, you're encouraging yourself to stay faithful. The Brazilian footballer Kaka once displayed "I Belong To Jesus" on his football kit on world television. We must be militantly proud to be Christians just like the Muslims usually are of their faith. Fight. Ask. Knock. Find.

Meshinca Felreiz said...

Joseph, if you have to ask that then you have no qualification to judge Islam. Since the Quran are words from God and it came down from God based on events throughout Prophet Muhammad's lifetime. Of course it needs explanations. It is not a story told by a 3rd person.

That is also the reason why we are able to preserve our book. We have Quran, book of words of God. Hadith, book of sayings/actions of our prophet Muhammad.

If the Quran were to explain everything in little detail, it would be much much much more thick.

That said, you should go straight away to a known and verified muslim scholar and ask away those questions. Because from my experience, due to skepticism, people will ask questions after questions, even after I've answered them many times. I believe a scholar would be more than happy to answer all of your questions upon questions. :) Don't be a afraid to lose an argument, it is the truth after all. There are plenty of official debates among muslims and christians. This goes to every Christians that have doubts about Islam. Ask away. Islam is open to Questions - but again, ask at the right place. Don't go asking at some random muslims. We have muslims that know little about Islam, just like there are Christians that know little about Christianity. :)

Gökh said...

Hi Joseph, let me try to answer you about 5:33 in Quran, as much as i can.

First of all, either intentionally or not, you use the translation for this verse as "commands muslims to slaughter who don't believe." which is not even correct. the verse actually is about "those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive upon earth (to cause) corruption...". here we can see that Quran doesnt allow to slaughter who doesn't believe. even forbids it. all you can do to a non-believer is to invite him in your religion. because he has this chance during his life, and if he was killed just because he doesn't believe, then the murderer has taken his chance to believe. but if he "strives upon earth to cause corruption", he is allowed to be executed, but not by individuals, because islamic penal codes can only be operated by the government. and the aim of the islamic penal codes is to set up a peaceful state itself. if as you said, Quran allowed muslims to slaughter non-believers, there would have left none of them. and i'm not clear with what you really mention as non-believers. it is non-muslims or atheists?

And yes, the verses might be about a specific time but all the verses are valid while the earth exists and it is also universal. because according to islam the chronology and reasons are like this: torah was informing people about the God and the rules. then they falsified the original message. then God sent Jesus to confirm the original torah and update the rules. and people falsified it too, and God sent Muhammad and Quran as a final warning. i say a final warning because it is explained very clearly in Quran that this is the last message and promised that will be valid until the end of the world. because the omnipotent God can make anything happen, especially the promises it has given. this can also be grounded to the fact that there is no existing original bible.


but if you take one verse from entire Quran, explicate it as you wish, regardless of the circumstances behind it , without even questioning it, would make you feel good but will not disproof it.

at this point, if we take jews' attitude against the christians and jesus, is exactly same as the christians' attitude against muhammad and the muslims. or if you take christians' opinion about jewism, is exactly the same as the muslims' opinion about the jewism and the christianity.


i hope i could clarify it. i can try to answer again if you have any other questions.

Gökh said...

and here you can see the Quran verses about christians. and you can see that christians even are praised in some verses. http://islam.about.com/cs/jesus/f/christians.htm

and chapter 30 http://quran.com/30 is totally about christian byzantines. it announces good news about the byzantine victory against politheistic persians to happen in 3-9 years. and really less than 9 years after this chapter was prophesied, byzantines were victorious on persians.

Joseph said...

Gokh, and Meshinca,

Meschinca – I thought I replied to you, but it didn’t come through yet – I’ll just say here that you negated to answer my question, and so a direct response to your points would be fruitless.

Gokh,
You said that I used the translation that says “commands muslims to slaughter who don’t believe.” – then you said “Which is not even correct.” Lets deal with that claim first as I was paraphrasing what the verse says – Here it is – in six different translations.

Sahih International
Indeed, the penalty for those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive upon earth [to cause] corruption is none but that they be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from opposite sides or that they be exiled from the land . That is for them a disgrace in this world; and for them in the Hereafter is a great punishment,

Muhsin Khan
The recompense of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and do mischief in the land is only that they shall be killed or crucified or their hands and their feet be cut off on the opposite sides, or be exiled from the land. That is their disgrace in this world, and a great torment is theirs in the Hereafter.

Pickthall
The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom;

Yusuf Ali
The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;

Shakir
The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement,

Joseph said...

...Continuing...

Dr. Ghali
Surely the only recompense of (the ones) who war against Allah and His Messenger and (diligently) endeavor to do corruption in the earth, is that they should be (all) massacred or crucified, or that their hands and legs should be cut asunder alternately or that they should be exiled from the land. That is a disgrace for them in the present (life), (Literally: the lowly "life", i.e., the life of this world) and in the Hereafter they will have a tremendous torment.

So – I’m not sure why all the Islamic translators decided, in six different instances, to use words that could be likened, or paraphrase to one word, “Slaughter”, but they did. Take that up with them.

The reason for the slaughter is given numerous times - “Mischief” and/or “Corruption”. Would this be the reason why proselytizing is illegal in all muslim countries?? Because preaching Christ would indeed corrupt the foundation of Islamic teaching with actual Truth.

And anyone, David Wood, Anthony Rogers, and the like – who blatantly accuses Mohammad as being a false prophet - or someone who draws a cartoon of mohammad, or someone who talks bad about mohammad – As shown in Sunan Abu Dawud and Sirat Rasul Allah, accounts of Mohammad ordering deaths of people who publicly offended him, or not punishing his followers who murdered their pregnant wives for talking bad about Mohammad.

Its important to note that ANY form of offense against Islam or Mohammad by ANYONE is punishable by death according to the historical sources, and the quran.

Which falsifies your claim that the quran doesn’t allow the deaths of unbelievers or hypocrites. As 5:33 includes anyone who does anything offensive to islam. Including, leaving islam, with the intent on showing mohammad as a false prophet – as in the case of Ibn Sa’d.

So yes, all the verses are valid – which is why we currently see people being killed, murdered, massacred, crucified, thrown off buildings, blown up, beheaded, dismembered, kidnapped and raped because of western education, and pregnant women stabbed and burned to death and a host of other things, today.

....because of verses like these paired with other verses that tell the muslim he is better than all other creatures Surah 3:110 which gives a sense of entitlement and superiority. And plain verses about muslims needing to be harsh toward unbelievers and hypocrites.

There is nothing you can do about the theology of Islam – except to completely ignore the theology of islam and tell ignorant people that your own life is a testament to the theology of islam – which is indeed – a lie.

Hopefully one day, Muslims will reform islam and Remove all the violent verses, and create a new kind of Islam that really does practice peace – but I guess if we did that, Islam would cease to exist, wouldn’t it?

Gökh said...

Hi Joseph,

nice word play. as you can see, not believing is not a reason to be killed. if there is a war against the God or the prophet, executing or crucifying is the penalty. and exiling from the country also is an option. take it like the death penalties in the US. if you don't commit a significant crime, you don't get fried in the US. US laws are operated in the US, islamic laws are operated in the islamic countries, which practically don't exist.

proselytizing christianity is not a reason to be executed. if you only preach christianity and don't falsify or blacken islam or the prophet, it is not forbidden in muslim countries. if your examples for islamic countries is iran or saudi arabia, you can find them using the sharia law to strenghten the authority of the regime or the royalty. you can look at indonesia, malaysia, turkey or egypt and so on. in turkey, christian preachers are even commercialized, preaching on mainstream media or the most crowded streets without a restriction. here they are: http://www.kitabimukaddes.com/?sl=EN

if you are not a muslim, you already think that muhammad is a false prophet, and even you don't say what you think about muhammad, we will know that you think so. because in the world, only muslims agreed with the prophecy of muhammad. believing or not believing are people's own matter. but there is a strict sensitivity in islam with the prophet. so if you draw a cartoon or insult or other offensive actions, it is normal that there will be an indignation. if christians don't matter that jesus is being drawn as a humiliating cartoon, this shows us the grade of the respect or sensitivity with what they believe in. and muslims again will be angry with that cartoon as they accept jesus as their prophet as well. but again, this is totally sure that, islamic laws are designated constitutions to the islamically managed countries, which practically don't exist for around 100 years. and for correct examples, you can take a look at the first islamic state, rashidun period, the ottoman empire, or andalusian islamic states.

Its important to note that ANY form of offense against Islam or Mohammad by ANYONE is punishable by death according to the historical sources, and the quran. - yes, if the land is operated with the sharia law, and the offense has been committed in the land, and ONLY BY THE GOVERNMENT.. a random muslim, just because he is angry with the cartoon, IS NOT ALLOWED to go and kill the cartoonist.

i simplify this just to prevent from your word plays. if someone in the US, committed to a crime, he is penalized by a witness, or by the court?

Which falsifies your claim that the quran doesn’t allow the deaths of unbelievers or hypocrites. As 5:33 includes anyone who does anything offensive to islam. Including, leaving islam, with the intent on showing mohammad as a false prophet – as in the case of Ibn Sa’d. > that's why i asked you a question to clarify it. i said, quran doesn't allow the deaths of people just because they are not muslims.

So yes, all the verses are valid – which is why we currently see people being killed, murdered, massacred, crucified, thrown off buildings, blown up, beheaded, dismembered, kidnapped and raped because of western education, and pregnant women stabbed and burned to death and a host of other things, today. - this persuaded me that your purpose is not debating, just to justify yourself with your hate speech.

what i mean valid is, eg. according to quran, children died before teenage will go to heaven directly. and this will be valid until the end of the world. but according to christianity, it had been limbo where children died before being baptised will go. but in 2007, previous pope ended the state of limbo. so according to christianity, pope can adjust something with the religion. it means it will be valid until the next adjustment.

Gökh said...

i will answer each of the accusations those you claim to be grounded on the quran verses:

- killed, murdered, massacred: death penalty conditions are clear in quran, AND CAN BE OPERATED ONLY BY THE GOVERNMENT FOR THEIR OWN CITIZENS

- thrown off building: there is no such penalty in quran.

- blown up, beheaded, dismembered: if people are doing these with a claim of islamic intentions, IT IS NOTHING DIFFERENT WITH THAT BREIVIK MURDERED 77 PEOPLE IN NORWAY IN 2011 AND CLAIMED THAT HE COMMITTED THIS FOR THE SAKE OF CHRISTIANITY. can we say that christianity is cruel and has no respect to others? of course we can't blame christianity or the christians with what he has done. and as well you can't associate muslims or the islam with the crimes that individuals commit.

- kidnapped: there is no such penalty in quran. and it is forbidden.

- raped: THERE IS NO CONDITION THAT QURAN JUSTIFIES A RAPE. it is strictly forbidden.

- because of western education: IT IS NOT FORBIDDEN IN QURAN TO BE EDUCATED WITH WESTERN METHODS. if you mean 'boko haram', that is a terrorist organization being emerged and financed by the west, to settle an excuse to invade Nigeria in an appropriate time in the future(the world's tenth biggest oil and ninth biggest natural gas reserving country) - please note this down.

- pregnant women stabbed: according to islamic laws, killing pregnant women means killing two people and the murderer will be compensated for every single right that the woman and the baby had.

I can observe your efforts to associate these crimes with islam, but there is no relation with islam. CRIMINAL ARE CRIMINALS, REGARDLESS OF THEIR RELIGIONS OR BELIEFS.

Gökh said...

3:110 You are the best nation produced [as an example] for mankind. You enjoin what is right and forbid what is wrong and believe in Allah . If only the People of the Scripture had believed, it would have been better for them. Among them are believers, but most of them are defiantly disobedient.

i don't see any harshness in this verse. it just criticizes the christians and jews, and good willing that believing would be better for them. and according to islam, superiority is can only be by the faith. so its not a national or racial superiority. especially if you don't believe, you don't need to be jealous or feel belittled.

yes it is obvious that you ignore the theology of islam by grounding your preachings on denying this theology, instead of talking about what your religion offers to people.

you use wordplays, accusations, disinformation, mistranslations as methods to deny islam, which will make you feel good, and secure who agrees with you, yet can't disproof it.

you say: "Hopefully one day, Muslims will reform islam and Remove all the violent verses, and create a new kind of Islam that really does practice peace – but I guess if we did that, Islam would cease to exist, wouldn’t it?"
answer: this is the difference between islam and the others, and also the reason that it was established. you may see your religion like an open-source computer programme that can be according to the circumstances, politics, feelings of your audience, or what will attract more customers to use your programme. but islam tells that the programme is copyrighted and only the author can update it, as he updated jewism to christianity and christianity to the newest version.

you just care about what you would like a religion to be, just to ensure your comfort, and you dont care about what God wants. which is slightly dangerous to take a role from God. if you listen to what God says, you don't need to worry about anything already.

and even if God removed the verses which you don't like, you would find another excuse for denying it. but unfortunate for you that no matter how hard you deny it, it will be existing. and you will always have a question "what if it's true?"

and yes, islam continously practices peace, helping to poor and weak, respecting the rights of other people.

if you don't wage war, islam will not wage a war either. if you are peaceful, islam will be peaceful as well. but if you attack on islam, and islam strikes back, you can't blame islam with not being peaceful. as pope francis agreed.

16:90; Indeed, Allah orders justice and good conduct and giving to relatives and forbids immorality and bad conduct and oppression. He admonishes you that perhaps you will be reminded.

Joseph said...

Hi Gokh,

I see …

You take offense to your sources and label Truth as wordplay. Sir, wordplay is not needed when you are speaking truth. It is needed when you are hiding the truth – I think there is a word for it – oh yes, Taqiyya

You said..

“If you only preach Christianity and don’t falsify or blacken islam or the prophet, it is not forbidden in muslim countries.”

Do you not see the folly with that statement? Christianity by its very nature falsifies Mohammad as a prophet for the same reasons the Jews falsified mohammad as a prophet – and by this statement you have just proved my point..

By simply being a christian, one is falsifying Islam every time he preaches Christ, causing corruption “in the land” - and thus deserves whatever penalty deemed under sharia. Why? Because you just said so – I wonder where you got that Idea from.

Familiarize yourself with this word. "Doctrine" – or Syntax.

I’m glad you brought up the idea of computer programming. A program will do everything it is allowed to do within the syntax. So too, does Sharia Law. Hence – it doesn’t matter How you kill the infidel, the hypocrite, or the unbeliever – just as long as its done.

Christianity also follows a syntax – which is Love your enemy, love your neighbor, and love God. It is not open for change or debate because it doesn’t require the bloodshed of unbelievers by the believing populous.

Two things you said that I will address simultaneously…

”As you can see, not believing is not a reason to be killed. If there is war against the God or the prophet, executing or crucifying is the penalty.”

“yes, if the land is operated with the sharia law, and the offense has been committed in the land, and only by the government, [not] a random muslim… is not allowed to go and kill the cartoonist.”

I see you are hung up on the word “believing”, ok we’ll deal with that. Also, I wish you could go back in time and tell the original Islamic scholars that they can’t kill people for unbelief so they can correct themselves, their writings, so that in the future, Muslims can’t use the writings as fuel for their actions. But, unfortunately, time travel doesn’t exist, and apparently neither can Islamic reform.

Let’s examine..

Joseph said...

Qur’an 9:29—Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the Religion of Truth, from among the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

Qur’an 9:73—O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyielding to them; and their abode is hell, and evil is the destination.

Qur’an 9:111—Surely Allah has bought of the believers their persons and their property for this, that they shall have the garden; they fight in Allah's way, so they slay and are slain.

Qur’an 9:123—O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness; and know that Allah is with those who guard (against evil).

Your response to these will be “That was war and it is only to be understood under that context.” - Sir why wasn’t war given as the reason – much like in 5:33??? Here’s your chance to be consistent – take it.

Qur’an 47:35—Be not weary and fainthearted, crying for peace, when ye should be uppermost: for Allah is with you, and will never put you in loss for your (good) deeds.

Qur’an 48:29—Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, and those who are with him are severe against disbelievers, and merciful among themselves.

Who are “Those”? Are the “Those” followers of Mohammad? – because if so, your claim that only governments can punish violators of Islamic law, is falsified.

Sahih al-Bukhari 6924—Allah’s Messenger said, “I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: La ilaha illallah (none has the right to be worshipped but Allah), and whoever said La ilaha illahllah, Allah will save his property and his life from me.”

Sahih Muslim 33—It has been narrated on the authority of Abdullah b. Umar that the Messenger of Allah said: I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah, and they establish prayer, and pay Zakat and if they do it, their blood and property are guaranteed protection on my behalf except when justified by law, and their affairs rest with Allah.

No specific claims limiting violent actions for times of war – Just general calls to violence toward unbelievers.

And no – we are not going to have the “Hadiths aren’t authentic” conversation. People grow tired of muslims running from their sources – I hope you are honest enough to own them.


You said ”According to Christianity, it had been limbo where children died before being baptized will go… according to Christianity, pope can adjust something with religion.”

You’re not speaking with a Catholic sir, the pope makes no laws or rules that I abide by. I follow the Christ. Hence the word “Christian”. The Word of God gives the pope zero power or authority.

Secondly, using Breivik to illustrate your point, you would have to show where the Christian doctrine instructs its believers to do what Breivik did (General calls to violence for unbelievers) – and I will convert myself and my entire family (Immediate and extended) to Islam, today.

You said “There is no condition that quran justifies a rape.”

I suppose you are right – especially if Islam continuously fails to identify rape in the first place. If it’s a revelation that married captives are permissible – then yes I suppose you’re right. Close your eyes and the sin ceases to exist.

Joseph said...

Western education teaches western societal ideals – contrary to sharia – thus any form of western education is frowned upon in any muslim country.

You said

”According to Islamic laws, killing pregnant women means killing two people and the murderer will be compensated for every single right that the woman and the baby had.”

….. except if the woman has insulted mohammad!

see Sunan Abu Dawud 4361 Mohammed offers no compensation for the mother and child who were killed by the father because the mother insulted mohammad….

Yes… thank you for clearing that up for me.

What else…

Oh yes… “Hate Speech”.
Nowhere did I, or anywhere on David’s page does it say “All muslims are bad or evil.” - That would be hate speech.

A generalization of a people – is simply wrong….

…except if you’re a muslim – then its ok right? Or do you not agree with Surah 98:6… You’ve already agreed with 3:110 which says all muslims are the best of peoples/nations.

Let’s see you dance your way out of this one…

Go..

Gökh said...

Hi,

it depends on who has created the syntax. Sharia law is not the syntax itself. “Syntax” of the program “Islam” is Quran, and the Hadith are the “User’s manual”, and the Sharia law is the “Terms and conditions” in the manual. And execution of the sharia laws is not like you want to portray. There has to be many situations actualized. Besides, anybody commited a crime has a right to repent according to the Sharia law. And repentance function is ON until the death.

"Christianity also follows a syntax..."

Yes, very lovely. But we don’t even know who is the author. Who should we give the credit to?

”Love”… Indeed, is a very attracting word. But is loving God enough? Does it justify anything else? If you don’t follow the instructions of God, what love are you talking about? If you say you love God, how can you show your love? Terrorists those behead their enemies also claim that they love God. So it will save them? Breivik, as well, claims that he loves God. But will he ever pay back to the deceased kids? I love my wife, in words, but if I’m cheating on her, then where is the love? If I don’t obey the God’s instructions, why do I say I love God?

Love your enemy… Then what were all those countless, merciless Crusades about? Those the crusaders were glad and proud to be bloodbathing with the blood of the slaughtered muslims and jews, were they loving their enemies? Or God?


"Two things you said that I will address simultaneously…"

Islam is the salvation for the people. As it was when it began to emerge. And initially, anybody who wanted to stay against it, meant to prevent people from their salvation. Islam doesn’t allow to kill people just because they don’t believe, they might be killed because of their attacks on Islam and grab the rights of potential believers by this- even if they would never believe.

First two wars of the Islamic State were with the polytheists, and both were tactically DEFENSIVE, which means, polytheists attacked and Muslims defended themselves.

Yes, unfortunately time travel doesn’t exist. If it existed, we could go back in time and take a look at who were behind the list below:

-More than 10 crusades – historians are not sure with the number.
-Jewish holocaust – more than 5 million were killed ruthlessly, many exiled.
-American-Indian genocide – more than 20 million Indians were killed, raped infected, exiled and even more.
-Countless colonializations in Africa, Americas, Australia, Asia. – Resulted numerous mass killings, poverty, epidemie with an aim of exploiting local resources. Still continues.
-Two World Wars – Near 100 millon died, more injured, many lost or captured.
-2 nuclear bombings
-And so on, so on..

Muslims are cruel. Oh, really?

What about your love your enemy syntax? It depends on something?

Let’s look at the Muslims side.

-Muslims ruled India for 1000 years in peace. Currently, only around %13 of the inhabitants are Muslim. Means the Hindu majority were not killed by Muslims.
-Muslims have been ruling Egypt for 1400 years. There are around 10 million Christians. And they still haven’t been killed.
-Lebanon, also 1400 years. Currently, 40% of the population is Christian.
-There was peace in Palestine until 1940s, where Muslims, Christians and Jews were living without a conflict.
-Spain, was under Muslim government for 800 years. They didn’t force anybody to convert to islam – as they shouldn’t – or didn’t kill anyone because of unbelief. We understand this by the quantity of Christians in Spain at present.
-Muslims ruled the Eastern Europe around 600 years, and again they didn’t kill anybody for unbelief.

So if Muslims are cruel, why didn’t they massacre the Christians?
And if Christians were lovely, why did they halve the world population?

Can you imagine what would happen if Christians were holding this power?

Gökh said...

"Let’s examine.."

First of all, the verses revealed in Medina are mostly about the governance of the state, managerial criterion, like a constitution. Please retain this.

Qur’an 9:29—Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the Religion of Truth, from among the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

Here we see that Quran doesn’t tell muslims to kill Christians as you claim.

Qur’an 9:73—O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyielding to them; and their abode is hell, and evil is the destination.

Here I take Sahih International translation as a reference:

“O Prophet, fight against the disbelievers and the hypocrites and be harsh upon them. And their refuge is Hell, and wretched is the destination.”

What’s wrong with it? Jesus didn’t fight with them?

And they were trying to kill all the Muslims, and remove Islam. Wouldn’t they fight back with them?


Qur’an 9:111—Surely Allah has bought of the believers their persons and their property for this, that they shall have the garden; they fight in Allah's way, so they slay and are slain.
Better translation of the whole verse is:
“Indeed, Allah has purchased from the believers their lives and their properties [in exchange] for that they will have Paradise. They fight in the cause of Allah , so they kill and are killed. [It is] a true promise [binding] upon Him in the Torah and the Gospel and the Qur'an. And who is truer to his covenant than Allah ? So rejoice in your transaction which you have contracted. And it is that which is the great attainment.”

And this is a metaphor here. Actually, Allah doesn’t need to give something to take something, but anyway, promises to give Paradise for those who fight and die in the cause of Allah. So this is a metaphor that there the life is taken in exchange with the Paradise. So they don’t need to be afraid.

And in this trade, the reason has to be Allah. Not OIL, not GOLD, not OPIUM, not NATURAL GAS, not PRIDE, not ANGER, not FEAR, not REVENGE.

Nothing else but Allah.

Gökh said...

Qur’an 9:123—O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness; and know that Allah is with those who guard (against evil).

"Your response to these will be ..."

In your previous post, you were claiming that 5:33 allows Muslims to kill non-believers. Now you refer to it to question another verse. You seem to be convinced of the truth, which is good for you. Honestly, your progress in such a short while amazed me.

And please remember, the name of this chapter is “The Repentance”.

You can spend your time accurately by trying to understand the verse instead of trying to read my mind.

Quran has a wholeness principle. And it has an absolute consistency. It’s because it was not written by a human. If a person has written it, there would be mistakes in consistency, dictation or even grammar. But there is not.

And in order to understand this verse, let’s take a look at the previous one, 9:122:
“And it is not for the believers to go forth [to battle] all at once. For there should separate from every division of them a group [remaining] to obtain understanding in the religion and warn their people when they return to them that they might be cautious.”

Here we can see that, 9:122-123 are about going far to battle and to fight the ones near you. You can take this as military tactics. It doesn’t command Muslims to kill them without a reason.”


Qur’an 47:35—Be not weary and fainthearted, crying for peace, when ye should be uppermost: for Allah is with you, and will never put you in loss for your (good) deeds.

Sahih International:
“So do not weaken and call for peace while you are superior; and Allah is with you and will never deprive you of [the reward of] your deeds.”

This is actually an obvious verse, but I will try to explain anyway.
This verse orders Muslims not to fear or surrender in a battle, while they have the advantage of being with Allah - the God, the creator, the omnipotent – because they executed a deed which they should, and Allah will never deprive them of the victory, or other rewards.”


Qur’an 48:29—Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, and those who are with him are severe against disbelievers, and merciful among themselves.

'Who are “Those”?...'

It is your wish, not the fact. And it seems that you hesitate to write the whole verse when it tells something about the original Gospel. You are speaking the truth by hiding it?

Translation of the whole verse from Sahih International:
“Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah ; and those with him are forceful against the disbelievers, merciful among themselves. You see them bowing and prostrating [in prayer], seeking bounty from Allah and [His] pleasure. Their mark is on their faces from the trace of prostration. That is their description in the Torah. And their description in the Gospel is as a plant which produces its offshoots and strengthens them so they grow firm and stand upon their stalks, delighting the sowers - so that Allah may enrage by them the disbelievers. Allah has promised those who believe and do righteous deeds among them forgiveness and a great reward.”

I DON’T SEE ANYTHING ABOUT PUNISHMENT OF VIOLATORS HERE. Do you really understand what you are reading?

If you will try to sell the word “forceful” to claim that it is falsified, I don’t think anybody will buy it.

Besides this, the name of this chapter is “the Conquer”. It gives Muslims good news of an upcoming conquer, which addresses us to an idea of a battle, exactly as the similar good news of an upcoming victory to the Christians in “Surat ar-Rum” (Chapter “The Romans”).

Gökh said...

Examined, and you failed in Quran.
Let’s see how you are doing with the Hadiths.

In Bukhari 6924, we only can extract:

-Who doesn’t agree the uniqueness of God is eligible to be fighted.
-Whoever differentiates between prayers is eligible to be fighted.

Sahih Muslim 33—It has been narrated on the authority of Abdullah b. Umar that the Messenger of Allah said: I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah, and they establish prayer, and pay Zakat and if they do it, their blood and property are guaranteed protection on my behalf except when justified by law, and their affairs rest with Allah.


"No specific claims limiting violent actions..."

Islam has wholeness as I mentioned above. Any limitations by Quran verses or another hadith will limitate this hadith as well. And in this hadith there is no promotion of violence towards unbelievers. If you think that there is no limitation in this hadith will not justify anybody to act only by referring to this hadith.

It is just an explanation of who can be a potential enemy. It is much more obvious to extract that a Muslim can’t fight a Muslim.

So it doesn’t promote anyone to be violent against unbelievers. As I said, if it actually did, there would be no unbeliever on earth at present.


"And no – we are not going to have the “Hadiths aren’t authentic” conversation."

Yes, me either. There are authentic hadiths and non-authentic hadiths. Hadiths will be counted as authentic are the only hadiths that the narrator chain can reach to Muhammad at the end. If any link is missed in the chain, it will not be taken as authentic, even it actually is. That is to protect the religion from additions or any efforts of manipulations. For example, in Christianity, you can’t understand who contributed to the religion. You even can write a script and add your opinions in it and sign it as Petrus, and everybody will think that these opinions are narrated by Petrus. But this is not possible in Islam. If you add something, it will be figured out before the next prayer call.

And Quran verses are always stronger than the hadiths. Because hadiths are people’s words, but Quran verses are God’s.

For example, one verse itself will turn you down with all of your accusations on Islam with being violent.

Quran 2:256 - There shall be no compulsion in [acceptance of] the religion. The right course has become clear from the wrong. So whoever disbelieves in Taghut and believes in Allah has grasped the most trustworthy handhold with no break in it. And Allah is Hearing and Knowing.

I think and hope that you got your answer here. Here we see that there can be no compulsion in acceptance of the religion. This verse has an obvious meaning that leaves no room for question marks or contradictions. It is comprehensive, clarifying and a squelcher for the defamers.

Gökh said...

You said ”According to Christianity, it had been limbo where children died before being baptized...”

You’re not speaking with a Catholic sir, the pope makes no laws or rules that I abide by. I follow the Christ. Hence the word “Christian”. The Word of God gives the pope zero power or authority.

Oh I’m sorry. You are practicing another bible? Then which one is yours? I always thought that the Catholics follow the Christ, too. It seems that I’m confused after the Renaissance. If you were preaching your religion by telling about it, instead of defaming mine, I wouldn’t have made such a mistake.
And we have a common point. I follow Christ too.


Secondly, using Breivik to illustrate your point, you would have to show where the Christian doctrine instructs its believers to do what Breivik did (General calls to violence for unbelievers) – and I will convert myself and my entire family (Immediate and extended) to Islam, today.
In “general calls to violence for unbelievers” case, I answered you a lot, above. I will have no benefit if you convert to Islam, but even if you will, it’s better for you to convert because you believe the truthness of Quran, not because the Christianity doesn’t meet your demands anymore. And if your entire family will convert just because you asked them to do, it is even worse. Quality is more important than the quantity.

You said “There is no condition that quran justifies a rape.”

I suppose you are right – especially if Islam continuously fails to identify rape in the first place. If it’s a revelation that married captives are permissible – then yes I suppose you’re right. Close your eyes and the sin ceases to exist.

I’m impressed. Why don’t you show us some verses or hadiths as a reference, as you did above about violence, so we can debate on it, and I give you your answer?

Gökh said...

Western education teaches western societal ideals – contrary to sharia – thus any form of western education is frowned upon in any muslim country.

I’m a Muslim educated in a western way. I would appreciate if you could tell me why it is contrary to sharia, so I can go repent.

You said

”According to Islamic laws, killing pregnant women means killing two people and the murderer will be compensated for every single right that the woman and the baby had.”

….. except if the woman has insulted mohammad!

Even the woman did it, she will need to wait until the birth, and until the end of the 2 full years as the legal term for suckling. We understand it from 4442.

"see Sunan Abu Dawud 4361..."

And in 4361 we don’t see any signs of association with pregnancy. Because the prophet doesn’t mention anything about the child.

Yes… thank you for clearing that up for me.
It’s my pleasure.
What else…

Oh yes… “Hate Speech”.
Nowhere did I, or anywhere on David’s page does it say “All muslims are bad or evil.” -That would be hate speech.
It would be honest if you did.

A generalization of a people – is simply wrong….
Oh really? Like your generalization of muslims with a reference to some terrorist organizations? This is what I’m struggling with.

…except if you’re a muslim – then its ok right? Or do you not agree with Surah 98:6… You’ve already agreed with 3:110 which says all muslims are the best of peoples/nations.

Quran 98:6 - “Indeed, they who disbelieved among the People of the Scripture and the polytheists will be in the fire of Hell, abiding eternally therein. Those are the worst of creatures.”

What can I say if the God says so? I don’t own a hell, so only the owner of the hell would have an idea about it. But I don’t see anything here to encourage Muslims to kill them. God doesn’t love you maybe?


Let’s see you dance your way out of this one…

Go..

I don’t know what makes you think that you proved something to me or disproved the Quran. You try to show me that the Quran is not for you, which simply I don’t care, but you can show me nothing that can disproof the trueness of it. No matter how hard you try, you can’t even give a single evidence of that the Quran might be untrue, or the Bible might be original.

So, study on this subject for your next lesson instead of parroting the same songs: islam is like this, islam is like that.

I will be pleased to teach you more.

Enjoy.

Joseph said...

Gohk –

In your entire response – you didn’t argue against Islam teaching to kill unbelievers – you defended it. I really don’t need to respond any further… but I’ll point out some inconsistencies…

Besides, anybody commited a crime has a right to repent according to the Sharia law. And repentance function is ON until the death.

- Nothing quoted to validate claim.

Love your enemy… Then what were all those countless, merciless Crusades about? Those the crusaders were glad and proud to be bloodbathing with the blood of the slaughtered muslims and jews, were they loving their enemies? Or God?

- Glad you asked – the crusades, were a result of Muslim oppression spreading throughout Europe. The catholics weren’t having it, so they destroyed the muslim forces. This can be found in…books. Lots of books located in your local western library.

Islam is the salvation for the people. As it was when it began to emerge. And initially, anybody who wanted to stay against it, meant to prevent people from their salvation. Islam doesn’t allow to kill people just because they don’t believe, they might be killed because of their attacks on Islam and grab the rights of potential believers by this- even if they would never believe.

- So initially – you had no choice but to join islam or die – thanks for clearing that up. As we see in sunan abu dawud and sirat rasul allah, speaking out against mohammad with Poetry was enough to keep people from believing. And so – they had to go. Right? Makes perfect sense.

- They might be Killed because their “attacks” (with poetry) would “Grab the rights of POTENTIAL believers”??? ….just… wow.

So mohammad was SUPER-insecure. You're shedding some serious light on this for us.

You know whats interesting about the Jewish Holocaust – Muslims were right there supporting Hitler. Thanks for bringing that up even though it has nothing to do with this conversation. It looks like you are trying the good ol’ “Well Look at that stuff over there!” Trick. Doesn’t work with me bud, your red herrings don’t absolve Islam from its violent past and present.

Lebanon? Now Peaceful? Apparently you didn’t read up on the history of Lebanon before Islam was there, vs after. Even more recently – that 40% is actually from almost 80% Christian from the 1920s. It has been slowly dwindling. I wonder why.

Spain – didn’t need to force anyone to convert because they killed everyone who opposed them when they took over. – you don’t like to read do you?

9:29 – “Fight those who believe not…” - What part did you say doesn’t command muslims to kill Christians???

9:73 – “Whats wrong with it? Jesus didn’t fight with them?” - WHAT?!? Lol – what are you even talking about?? Jesus – didn’t fight anyone, ever… so no. That doesn’t work.

“They were trying to kill all the muslims and remove islam” - Provide reference. It seems to me, that they just wanted to live their own way, and mohammad wasn’t having it.

9:111 - You’ve just expounded on why Islamists are so crazy – its because in this verse they realize their lives don’t mean anything unless it is given in fighting in the cause of Allah. Thanks for clearing that up.

5:33 – by default – does allow unbelievers to be killed if they are causing mischief in the land by preaching anything other than Islam.

Joseph said...

Quran has a wholeness principle. And it has an absolute consistency. It’s because it was not written by a human. If a person has written it, there would be mistakes in consistency, dictation or even grammar. But there is not.

- I had to keep from hysterically laughing as I read this. Ibn Sa’d was one of many scribes who made frequent suggestions and changes to the Koran. Which was the reason he left Islam, later to be brought back and killed. (Sirat Rasul Allah and Sunan Abu Dawud)

- There were LOTS of grammatical, and dictational errors, there were two versions of the quran before Uthman gathered and burned the ones he didn’t like!

- Aisha even said a goat ate the portions of the quran that spoke about “stoning and other verses” that she had in her possession (Ibn Majah’s Book of Nikah) (Umar, Ibn Abbas, and Ubay ibn Ka’ab all attested to the existence of these verses that used to be in the quran)

- So …. Yeah.. I couldn’t help but chuckle at that.

Here we can see that, 9:122-123 are about going far to battle and to fight the ones near you. You can take this as military tactics. It doesn’t command Muslims to kill them without a reason.”,

- Yes. The reason being “not believing”.

I DON’T SEE ANYTHING ABOUT PUNISHMENT OF VIOLATORS HERE. Do you really understand what you are reading?

- The question wasn’t about the punishment of violators – the question was “Who are the “Those”.. “ Which you conveniently dodged. And to answer your dodge – it specifically says “are severe against disbelievers.” - You don’t see anything about punishment of violators? Well apparently you don’t need to BE a violator according to this verse – you just need to be an unbeliever!

- Thanks again for helping to clear up these misconceptions. Now we know that All muslims are able to serve punishment to unbelievers.

exactly as the similar good news of an upcoming victory to the Christians in “Surat ar-rum
- Wrong. The victory Goes to Christ here. Not to Christians.

-Who doesn’t agree the uniqueness of God is eligible to be fighted.
-Whoever differentiates between prayers is eligible to be fighted.

- it’s spelled “Fought”. “Fighted” is not a word. You fail at spelling and grammar.

- aside from that – you just agreed with your tyrannical prophets idea that people should be killed if they don’t believe in islam (or the ways within Islam). (Just thought I’d point that out for the readers)

Any limitations by Quran verses or another hadith will limitate this hadith as well. And in this hadith there is no promotion of violence towards unbelievers.

- “Limitate” is not a word.
- What quranic verses are there that limit violence?? Oh that’s right – None- because the violent verses came AFTER the peaceful ones – therefore according to the doctrine of abrogation (16: 101, and 2:106 - Whatever communications We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, We bring one better than it or like it. Do you not know that Allah has power over all things?” The only limitation is which verse came last. Conveniently for all the Islamic fundamentalists – all the violent verses came last. So much for limitations on violence in islam.

“I have been commanded to fight against people…(Not till they stop fighting back, not till they stop attacking us, not till they move to another land where they practice their own religion peacefully)… …till they testify that there is no god but allah, and Muhammad is his messenger….”

Seriously… you don’t see anything wrong with that??

I said we’re not having the “Hadiths are weak” convo, and you continue to try to have it… Moving on.

Quran 2:256 – was abrogated by later verses of violence. See upper paragraphs, or 2:106 or 16:101. So while that would end all conversations accusing islam of being violent – You still have to deal with abrogation, and 116 violent verses in the quran that came after 2:256.

Joseph said...

Your comments about Catholicism are going ignored –

For the comment about following Christ – no you don’t. You don’t know who Christ is, in order to be able to follow him. You’re christ was a liar – Ours is not. Our Christ said that He would lay his life down, and raise it up again. and He did. Your christ, didn’t lay his life down, but made it appear to people, in conjunction with The Best of Schemers, that he did, and then lied to timothy, and the rest of his disciples later on about it. Nice try though..

Breivik – Where did you answer me? Where did you show me in the bible that Christ calls for us to smite the unbelievers when we see them or when they are near to us, because they are unbelievers who create mischief in the land? I’m sorry I must have missed it.

On my comment about rape in islam you said…

“I’m impressed. Why don’t you show us some verses or hadiths as a reference, as you did above about violence, so we can debate on it, and I give you your answer?”

Sure – Rape in islam – read below.

Qur’an 23:1-6—The Believers must (Eventually) win through—Those who humble themselves In their prayers; Who avoid vain talk; Who are active in deeds Of charity; Who abstain from sex, Except with those joined To them in the marriage bond, Or (the captives) whom Their right hands possess—For (in their case) they are Free from blame.

Qur'an 70:22-30—Not so those devoted To Prayer—Those who remain steadfast To their prayer; And those in whose wealth Is a recognized right For the (needy) who asks And him who is prevented (For some reason from asking); And those who hold To the truth of the Day Of Judgement; And those who fear The displeasure of their Lord—For their Lord’s displeasure Is the opposite of Peace And Tranquility—And those who guard Their chastity, Except with their wives And the (captives) whom Their right hands possess—For (then) they are not To be blamed.

From the hadiths

Sahih Muslim 3432—Allah’s Messenger sent an army to Autas and encountered the enemy and fought with them. Having overcome them and taken them captives, the Companions of Allah’s Messenger seemed to refrain from having intercourse with captive women because of their husbands being polytheists. Then Allah, Most High, sent down regarding that: "And women already married, except those whom your right hands possess (4:24)" (i.e. they were lawful for them when their Idda period came to an end).

Sahih Muslim 3371 —We went out with Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) on the expedition to the Bi’l-Mustaliq and took captive some excellent Arab women; and we desired them, for we were suffering from the absence of our wives, (but at the same time) we also desired ransom for them. So we decided to have sexual intercourse with them but by observing azl (withdrawing the male sexual organ before emission of semen to avoid conception). But we said: We are doing an act whereas Allah’s Messenger is amongst us; why not ask him? So we asked Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him), and he said: It does not matter if you do not do it, for every soul that is to be born up to the Day of Resurrection will be born.

Sahih Al-Bukhari 4138—We went out with Allah’s Apostle for the invasion of Bun Al-Mustaliq and we received captives from among the Arab captives and we desired women and celibacy became hard on us and we loved to do coitus interruptus [same as "azl" above]. So when we intended to do coitus interruptus, we said: "How can we do coitus interruptus before asking Allah’s Apostle who is present among us? We asked (him) about it and he said: "It is better for you not to do so, for if any soul till the Day of Resurrection is predestined to exist, it will exist."

Translation – Mohammad: If you’re going to do it, Go all the way!!

Joseph said...

Sahih Muslim 3384—Jabir bin Abdullah (Allah be pleased with them) reported that a person asked Allah’s Apostle (may peace be upon him) saying: I have a slave-girl and I practice azl with her, whereupon Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: This cannot prevent that which Allah has decreed. The person then came (after some time) and said: Messenger of Allah, the slave-girl about whom I talked to you has conceived, whereupon Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: I am the servant of Allah and His Messenger

So we see here that muslim men refrained from sexually violating their captive women who were married or unmarried. Until Mohammad brought down a verse allowing them to do so. In More modern terminology, this is called Rape.

Oh and one more - this one pertains to muslim women.

2:223

Your women are a tillage for you; so come up to your tillage however you decide, and place forward (good deeds) for yourselves; and be pious to Allah, and know that you will be meeting Him. And give good tidings to the believers.

This verse never sat well with me - If your wife isn't in the mood, you don't force it upon her. I would also equivocate that with rape. But maybe I'm just too western, lol.

I’m a Muslim educated in a western way. I would appreciate if you could tell me why it is contrary to sharia, so I can go repent

Oh! You enjoy democracy as opposed to theocracy? and using credit cards that charge interest!? That’s wonderful – perhaps we should tell Saudi Arabia they are doing Sharia all wrong! Lol


Even the woman did it, she will need to wait until the birth, and until the end of the 2 full years as the legal term for suckling. We understand it from 4442

What?? So.. She needs to wait 2 years to insult mohammad? Or to be killed by her husband? Lol what are you talking about?

And in 4361 we don’t see any signs of association with pregnancy. Because the prophet doesn’t mention anything about the child.

You must really hate reading anything negative about your prophet.

“….generalization of muslims with a reference to some terrorist organizations? This is what I’m struggling with.”

There is no generalization of muslims with terrorists.

– Here I’ll help you understand…

“Those terrorists are muslims, that means all muslims are terrorists” – Is a false generalization.

“Those terrorists are muslims, that means there is something wrong with Islam.” – This is not a generalization of a people, but an observation about a set of ideas – namely Islam. Simple grammar.

Quran 98:6 response – “What can I say if the God says so? I don’t own a hell, so only the owner of the hell would have an idea about it.”

“But I don’t see anything here to encourage Muslims to kill them. God doesn’t love you maybe?”


Such a good dodger! Actually, you're terrible at it because I see whenever you try it.

… because you seem to have a problem with reading I’ll point out a few words that should change your response if you got good grades in those western schools.

“polytheists will be in the fire of hell… “ Will Be is future tense my friend – thus while they are on this earth (Christians and Jews) They are considered the Worst of Creatures and Will Be thrown in the fire (Future Tense).

Your attempt to not acknowledge the Quran’s extremely hateful comments has been noted…

In conjunction with 3:110 – If muslims are the best of peoples which you agreed with ,and Jews and Christians are “the worst of creatures” 98:6 – which you agreed with by dodging, then the lives of Jewish and Christian people matter less than the lives of believers.

And yes! You are absolutely right! The quran over and over again says that allah, does not love the unbeliever!

Whereas the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob, loves all of his creation, believers or not!. Huge Difference. Thanks for helping to point that out for us!

Joseph said...

And finally...

“No Matter how hard you try, you can’t even give a single evidence of that the quran might be untrue, or the bible might be original”

I SURE CAN!! LOL

1) The quran Says that the word of “allah” can’t be altered. (6:115, 18:27)

2) Affirms the Gospels were sent by “allah” (3:3-4, 7:157, 5:47, and 5:68)

3) If God sent down his words to the Christians and Jews, and his words cannot be altered, then you my friend are wrong!

Because the Torah and Injeel both reject Muhammad, and they were never changed or altered.


Thanks again for helping us clear that up. And Good job with the dancing – you’ve really helped us understand the power of willful ignorance.

Joseph said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Joseph said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Gökh said...

Hello Joseph,

Long time no hear from you.

In your entire response – you didn’t argue against Islam teaching to kill unbelievers – you defended it. I really don’t need to respond any further… but I’ll point out some inconsistencies…

- Nothing quoted to validate claim.
Quran 3:89 - Except for those who repent after that and correct themselves. For indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.

- Glad you asked – the crusades, were a result of Muslim oppression spreading throughout Europe.
Oh really? Then why did they kill Jews too? And what about the others?Genocides, world wars, nukes..?

- So initially – you had no choice but to join islam or die.
no, join or not, but don't ever fight with it.

- They might be Killed because their “attacks” (with poetry) would “Grab the rights of POTENTIAL believers”??? ….just… wow. if you can share those poems, we can talk over them.

So mohammad was SUPER-insecure. You're shedding some serious light on this for us.

You know whats interesting about the Jewish Holocaust – Muslims were right there supporting Hitler.
ooo.. it would be a great contribution to history unless it was a lie.

Lebanon? Now Peaceful?
of course not. and this is what i claim already. nowhere is peaceful since the early 1900s, when the west started to prepare for the WW1. but before that it was much more peaceful than europe had ever seen. and many christians moved to west, as the ottoman empire was approaching to an end.

Spain – they killed everyone who opposed them when they took over.what kind of opposition was it? and how many people were killed just because they are christians? and how many muslims are there now in spain?

9:29 – “Fight those who believe not…” - What part did you say doesn’t command muslims to kill Christians???
says fight, not kill

9:73 – “Whats wrong with it? Jesus didn’t fight with them?” - WHAT?!? Lol – what are you even talking about?? Jesus – didn’t fight anyone, ever… so no. That doesn’t work. then what did jesus do during his existence? fight has to be a physical action?

“They were trying to kill all the muslims and remove islam” - Provide reference. It seems to me, that they just wanted to live their own way, and mohammad wasn’t having it.
sirah rasul allah, quran, hadiths.. you know it very well. it wouldn't seem to you anything else.

9:111 - You’ve just expounded on why Islamists are so crazy – its because in this verse they realize their lives don’t mean anything unless it is given in fighting in the cause of Allah. Thanks for clearing that up.
yes, but not only fight. as in the story of Abraham and his son.

5:33 – by default – does allow unbelievers to be killed if they are causing mischief in the land by preaching anything other than Islam. i gave your answer about this. and it is good to see you using "if" clause now. and how did you deduce "preaching something else" is a reason to be killed?

Gökh said...

by the way, like the families of Shakira, Carlos Slim, Salma Hayek, many lebanese christians emigrated to west, that's why the percentage dropped by half.

- I had to keep from hysterically laughing as I read this. Ibn Sa’d was one of many scribes
sorry, who? which Ibn Sa'd is it?

- There were LOTS of grammatical, and dictational errors,
really? you had that version? what he burned was his personal notes on the verses. it is impossible him to burn the ones he didn't like. because God instructed the prophet to memorize it. and not to cause any contradictions, the prophet asked the sahaba to memorize it too. and when a new verse was revealed, muslims gathered, the prophet recited it from the first verse to the last one by order, together with people. so it was not possible to miss a verse, or add a new one.

i would like to answer you if you can provide me some grammatical, logical or dictational errors from quran.


- Aisha even said a goat ate the portions of the quran that spoke about..
Quran 15:9 - Indeed, it is We who sent down the Qur'an and indeed, We will be its guardian.

I have told in my previous post that the verses are always stronger than the hadiths.


- Yes. The reason being “not believing”.
you just refuse to see it. i think you are smart enough to understand.

Quran 2:18 - Deaf, dumb and blind - so they will not return [to the right path].


- The question wasn’t about the punishment of violators..
and that verse wasn't about the islamic law either.

as you can see, i try to respond to every claim. if i miss anything, it will not be on purpose. if you remind me, i can reply with what you accuse me of dodging.

and yes, those are followers of Muhammad, founders of the islamic state. so there was a government.


- Thanks again for helping to clear up these misconceptions. Now we know that All muslims are able to serve punishment to unbelievers.
your accusations are boring me now. i answered many times. i can answer again if it is necessary. anyway, you will keep claiming it.

those are followers of Muhammad, founders of the islamic state. so there was a government.

besides this, the verse is not even about punishment.



- Wrong. The victory Goes to Christ here. Not to Christians.
yeah? now im sure with that you dont get what you read.

Gökh said...

- it’s spelled “Fought”. “Fighted” is not a word. You fail at spelling and grammar.
thank you for proving me that you might have nothing with the fact but the form. now the debate comes to a grammar point. your shallowness amazed me.

- aside from that – ..
and now you fail at logic. i don't understand how you could deduce it. and i wonder how did you decide the prophet is tyrannical. however, you provide references from sirat rasul allah.

- “Limitate” is not a word.
thank you for illuminating me with it.
english is not my mother tongue. i might make mistakes. we can talk in my language if you would like.


- What quranic verses are there that limit violence?? Oh that’s right – None-
i answered this at the end of the post.

“I have been commanded to fight against people…

Seriously… you don’t see anything wrong with that??
yes, i see that a creature is questioning a command of the creator.

show me something practical about this. show me a world war caused by muslims. or a christian genocide. whatever you can find. i don't mean to point the christian cruelty. if it was really like what you extracted, something would happen.

Quran 36:82 - His command is only when He intends a thing that He says to it, "Be," and it is.


I said we’re not having the “Hadiths are weak” convo, ...
you said we're not having hadiths are not authentic convo, and i agreed with you. i said quran verses are much stronger, naturally. i defined what are called non-authentic hadiths. i don't remember i said the hadiths are weak.

Quran 2:256 – was abrogated by later verses of violence.
i don't know how long it will take you to get it, but unfortunate for you that both 2:106 and 16:101 are about the verses of gospel and torah. which means gospel and torah were abrogated, and quran was brought forth as it is better than them.

you can't make conclusion from one verse. not only you, those you call fundamentalists either can't.

Gökh said...

as i'm about to sleep, i will try to answer your last post tomorrow. please wait for it before you answer.

Joseph said...

@ Gohk,

I think by now you've had enough sleep...

You quoted Quran 3:89 to substantiate your claim that people can be saved from being murdered according to Sharia law... Interesting that you quoted the quran to represent the sharia law - Most muslims like to separate the two. Smart muslims try to disassociate Sharia from the Quran because its so brutal - but I'm glad that you seem to be different.

Interestingly enough, your words don't change the fact that if a woman is found to be an adulterer for getting raped - how many reported incidents have there been of "her repentance" saving her from death in Islamic countries?

The fact that you said that is just astounding.

You said "Oh really? Then why did they kill Jews too? And what about the others? Genocides, world wars, nukes...?"

I wish, I wish, I wish that muslims would realize - throwing out red herrings does not absolve them for answering for the topic at hand. But genies don't exist, and apparently neither does consistency when speaking with muslims...

Your points, while they can be talked about - Dont matter when you can not even speak on the cause of the crusades!

The issue with the crusades is that you believe the muslims had the right to go into the european lands and conquer by force and by bloodshed - yet you are upset when it happens by others in other places? very hypocritical of you...

Then you tried to include a bunch of other accusations in with it - sir - answer the question or ignore it - don't insult my intelligence.
Then you went on to say, in response to my comment "So initially - you had no choice but to join Islam or die"

you said...

no, join or not, but dont ever fight with it

WOW!!! ...are you thinking about what you're saying?

Islam has had 548 recorded battles with hundreds of thousands dead under his foot. And after they had conquered Spain and many other european lands - were they going to stop?

No, but your answer is "Dont ever fight with them" ... I guess just let them come into your home and kill you and rape your daughters too right? - sickening that you would say that.

Joseph said...

In response to my comment

"They might be Killed because their “attacks” (with poetry) would “Grab the rights of POTENTIAL believers”???"

You said - if you can share those poems, we can talk over them.

You know full well about Fartana and Qurayba, as well as Ibn Sa'd and many other whos muhammad had killed because he didn't like what they had to say...

All of these stories are found in Sirat Rasul Allah, and Sunan Abu Dawud - David Wood has already created a page which gives you all the sources, this site has a wealth of all the islamic sources that shed light on muhammads true character.

Your islamic scholars who come 1400 years later - like to create their own version of history... which is where you get the "Those Hadiths are weak and those hadiths are strong, and that scholar was a liar..." etc etc.. which is why we are not having that conversation that you keep trying to have. Most muslims seem to have no accountability when it comes to historical facts.

I will not accept that you are free to pick and choose what you want of muhammads life.

You said

"That would be a great contribution unless it was a lie"

Sir the proof is concrete that Hitler received advisement from Muslims. But again - not even the topic so lets get back on track.

You said

"what kind of opposition was it? and how many people were killed just because they are christians? and how many muslims are there now in spain?"

Spain fought for 400 years to eradicate the muslim ideology from their land, and they regained control - good on them - but it came at the cost of much bloodshed, no thanks to muhammads initial convictions that Islam has the right to phsycially conquer the world.

You said...

"Says 'fight' not 'kill'"

are you in the 8th grade? do you really think that muhammad simply "hit" the unbelievers???

This must mean that you are entirely out of rebuttals as you cannot come up with any justification whatsoever for what your quran says - absolutely zero. And while it is quite laughable - I would implore you to listen to that little voice in the back of your head called "common sense".

There is nothing an educated person can say that can justify a general call to fight (Kill, or violently subjugate) unbelievers until they say the shahada (or pay the jizya and feel subdued) - except a person who agrees with the doctrine of Jihad and fighting in the way of allah.

According to you - Islam was spread by people having boxing matching, rather than bloody conquests against unsuspecting peoples, and by breaking treaties. Dispicable.




Joseph said...

Jesus "fought" with words, and for it, shed his own blood.

Muhammad "fought" with swords and shed immeasurable amounts of others blood.

Don't ever try to put Jesus and Muhammad on the same moral ground - you will lose every time.

You didn't answer 9:111 - at least not coherently.

5:33 "how did you deduce preaching something else is a reason to be killed"

By your own admition crimes against islam are punishable by death - Causing mischeif in the land is one of those crimes is it not?

Preaching against muhammad and causing a person to leave islam to become a christian does what? Is there some "Don't kill the apostate" clause in islam that I missed somewhere?

And what happens to the person who causes the muslim to convert, in that muslim country? oh I guess he gets a ticket and is fined? Yes that must be it.

And if you don't know who Ibn Sa'd is - then I suggest you read more of your sources - I am not here to educate you. If you can't speak to your own Islamic history, then maybe you shouldn't be so willing to speak on the subject.

Finally, your last comment in regards to the known fact that the quran was gathered and burned because of differences, is of your own ignorance. and frankly - this is getting more pathetic with each of your responses.

"I have told you the verses are always stronger than the hadiths"

So... there are differing degrees of truth? Either its true or its not true! If it is true, then your quoting of 15:9 is false. Which makes the Quran itself false. Which makes Islam false.

Which one is it? If it was false then you can throw out all of Sahih Al Bukhari, and the other hadiths - so much for the Sunna...

Which is why your scholars have to keep using the "This hadith is not reliable BS". You pick and choose what best works for you in which ever situation.

You used a quranic verse to call me deaf, dumb and blind. Your opinion of me sir matters not. The fact that you can't read is not my fault - many times the quran specifically gives the reason of unbelief for the cause to Fight, Kill, or Subjugate the unbelievers. I wont post if for you because you can find it yourself all throughout chapter 9 and some others.

i don't know how long it will take you to get it, but unfortunate for you that both 2:106 and 16:101 are about the verses of gospel and torah. which means gospel and torah were abrogated, and quran was brought forth as it is better than them

Wrong. Muhammad specifically identified the Torah and The Injeel as being "From God" and that it was good for the jews and christians to rely on the books given to them - Indicating that they were not "Voided" by abrogation.

You choose to respond to the comment before reaing the verses...






Joseph said...

here...

2:106

We do not abrogate a verse or cause it to be forgotten except that We bring forth [one] better than it or similar to it. Do you not know that Allah is over all things competent?

16:101

And when We substitute a verse in place of a verse - and Allah is most knowing of what He sends down - they say, "You, [O Muhammad], are but an inventor [of lies]." But most of them do not know.


The Torah and the Injeel are a collection of books (plural) They are not "a verse."

So your twisted imam fed interpretation of those verses on abrogation does not apply to the torah or the new testament. It only applies to the verses that were contradictory or forgotten from the quran.

There is nothing before or after either of these verses that could justify your interpretation that it was referring to the torah and the injeel.

Nice try though.

Apologies for not waiting - your comments were degrading to very low level and I felt the need to make you aware of it so that perhaps your next round will be more consistent and coherent...

But I'm not holding my breath on that.

Joseph said...

***Correction***

According to you - Islam was spread by people having boxing matches, rather than bloody conquests against unsuspecting peoples, and by breaking treaties. Dispicable.

Also - Saying "That hadith is not strong."

Is the same thing as "That hadith is weak" - Own your hadiths, and your islamic histories, please.

kehinde oduola said...

Mr Joseph, don't misunderstand bible you are holding with the book given to Jesus. The bible you are holding was created after Jesus and most of what forms the basis of today Christianity are from letters written to different kings and tribes by Saul(paul) who wasn't even among the the disciples. It is a shame if you can't discover that Saul lied about his meeting with Jesus from his own statement in "the book of act" but you can manage to see these verse in Quran. You can try to discredit Islam using these verses but it will make your religion look more stupid. Tell me about God that commanded some kings to wage war on some tribes in Old Testament, drowned a whole generation during Noah's time, rained fire on thousands of unbelievers, drowned Pharaoh and his men in the sea and other killings recorded in your Bible. Make video about this God and the difference between Him and the one that asks Muslims in the Quran not to friend unbelivers.

Joseph said...

Hi Kehinde - Regardless of what your Imam tells you - the problem isn't with the bible, the problem is your quran teaching that it is from Allah. And because it is from allah, according to the quran, it is unchangeable - which means that everything we have today is reliable. Sorry but thats how logic works.

The other problem isn't that God ordered deaths of many in the OT - the problem again is the fact that God never ordered anyone to be killed for insulting a prophet. On the contrary, if a prophet insulted God by lying - He was to be punished. In Islam it is the other way around. He also never gave any "One command fits all" verses for the death sentences he handed out - Allah on the other hand just says "Yeah, Kill anyone who doesn't believe, or anyone causes others not to believe, no, no time frame, for all time, kill unbelievers." (Paraphrasing of course) But you get the point.

YHWH - (The real one) commands us to love unbelievers. Allah calls you to kill them. Big difference.

Nice Chatting with you.

Gökh said...

Dear Joseph,

It is unfortunate to see that you have gone back to your roots after a reasonable progress.

I didnt have a chance to respond to your bullies as you or whoever ignored my posts - yet, you were very much aware of it.

And do you really think that your post would have been an answer to kehinde's question? Sweet if so. But anyway we are desperately waiting for 'the real one' you will post.

Sir, you have libraries of bibles and none of them are identical (exaggerating of course), and you are talking about something supposed to be 'the real God'? You dont even know which one is the real bible, so how could you determine that your God notion is the real one?

Regards,

PS: please dont lose time with grammar or punctuation errors.

Joseph said...

Gohk - your arguments were completely destroyed by me and then you went silent for months. Please address me after you have addressed my posts specifically addressed to you. Don't try to come back and change the angle.

Nice try though.

Tom said...

@Joseph

I so glad you have addressed this muslims points clearly and this muslim followed up with numerous attempt at distractions, red herrings... they truly show their desperations to protect, very sadly the savageness of their believe system!

His last post is another well worn tired distraction:

"Sir, you have libraries of bibles and none of them are identical (exaggerating of course), and you are talking about something supposed to be 'the real God'? You dont even know which one is the real bible, so how could you determine that your God notion is the real one?"

When they loose the main argument they will use the "corruption", dont know who wrote it, blah blah, red herring crap!

But they will ignore what their koran Clearly tells them .. "allah" sent ALL the previous scriptures..That will be another song and dance on their part :))

Shalom

Gökh said...

Dear Tom,

As you can see in my previous posts, we don't ignore that Allah sent all the scriptures. In fact, we don't ignore anything like you do because in Quran, there is an answer for any question. But you ignore when you're out of answers. Ignorants ignore.

It's nice to see you refer to the Quran when you want to strengthen the reliability of your opinion. Yes, in Quran it is told Allah sent all the scriptures, and none of them are one of your bibles which you are practising today. Yes, corruption is true. And you know this too.
If you weren't corrupted, we didn't need to have Quran. Like we didn't need bible if the jews weren't corrupted. If not, then the old testament would be enough, right?

We never lose the main argument, which is "Allah is the only god, Muhammad is the messenger". But while you don't have a main argument, you blame others.

Sir, i've told many times. Defaming an idea doesn't make you disproof it, nor prove your own idea. If you want to take attention to your religion, you need to tell people about that, not other religions. You need to prove people that your religion is the truth, which you will never be able to.

So, my religion is mine, your religion is yours. I'm just responsible for telling the truth. It's not my problem whether you believe or not. When you try to defame my religion, you are just showing people that your idea is not reliable enough.

Joseph said...

@Tom, Thank you Brother!

Yes, when you put a muslim against the ropes and force him to defend his nonsense they will always bite back with red herrings. "LOOK OVER THERE!!!" Tactics never work with me.

I just reread the entire conversation again, and the most amazing cognitive dissonance instance is when he said "It says 'Fight not Kill'"

... Wow.... Just SMH. WOW. lol. They jump through hoops to ignore everything they don't like. Very cowardly.

Tom said...

@Gökh

The very First thing you should take NOTE is:

"The Judeo-Christian faith was very well rooted for over 600 years, before your muhmmad came onto the scene to start in your words, "Defaming an idea..."
AND you said "you need to tell people about that, not other religions"...

Did muhhmad NOT "defame" the previous Judeo-Christian religion?
Why did he not just focus on starting His own "religion", instead of telling us Christians, that Jesus in not The Son of God, He did not Die, He did come to save all sinners etc etc!

You stated:
"So, my religion is mine, your religion is yours".

Using your logic, muhammad should not have interfered into the Judeo-Christian Faith, right?
Your religion crossed over INTO my religion and perverted it PERIOD

Next, Neither Jesus nor Christians have claimed the Old Testament is corrupted,
" If not, then the old testament would be enough, right?".. You say!

NO, The PROPHECY in the Old Testament of the Coming Messiah NEEDS to be FULFILLED.. obviously you have no clue as to what it is all about!

The question the muslim dance around all the time is, WHEN, HOW, WHERE, WHO, did the corruption ...Was it Before, During, muhmmad's time?

You have claimed:
".....because in Quran, there is an answer for any question.."

So Give the answers to my above question, showing Clearly the suras from your koran?

Tom said...

@Joseph

I must say they surely are extremely skillful in the art of "throwing red herrings"..

They surely qualify for a Nobel or Oscar.. for perfecting that "art"! LOL

Khalid said...

@Gökh
Peace brother. Are you not tired of writing and responding to arrogance. They are trying to point to an imaginary splinter in your eye while they have a log in theirs. Give your self a rest. Allah, as Jesus would refer to his creator in Aramaic, alone shows the way to whom he chooses. As far as Islam, the submission to the one God, Allah is the true religion whether you are Jewish, Christian or Muslim.

Remember what Allah Says in Surah Al-Kafiroon،the Disbelievers
Say: O disbelievers!
I worship not that which ye worship;
Nor worship ye that which I worship.
And I shall not worship that which ye worship.
Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion.

And remember:
Surah Al-Kahf, Verse 4&5:
And to warn those who say: Allah hath chosen a son,
(A thing) whereof they have no knowledge, nor (had) their fathers, Dreadful is the word that cometh out of their mouths. They speak naught but a lie.
And Also, Surah Al-Hadid, Verse 27:
Then We caused Our messengers to follow in their footsteps; and We caused Jesus, son of Mary, to follow, and gave him the Gospel, and placed compassion and mercy in the hearts of those who followed him. But monasticism they invented - We ordained it not for them - only seeking Allah's pleasure, and they observed it not with right observance. So We give those of them who believe their reward, but many of them are evil-livers.

monasticism... and they observed it not with right observance..,
but many of them are evil-livers. I guess with the pedophilia permiating almost every major church, the verse is not lying.

They seem to keep repeating the Christian Zionist talking points that Islam is a violent religion. Well let us introduce a simple facts. The Arabic language has 14 or more synonyms to the word sword. How many times is the word sword or a synonym used in the Quraan? Zero. The Bible? Over 200 times.

Maybe our humble Christian experts on Islam can give us a few expert answers to questions about their own religion if they can.
1. Is the Bible God's Word?
2. Is Jesus PBUH God because he was born without a father?
3. Did Jesus ever mention anything about the trinity? Hint St. Augustine, 14th Century first time ever.
4. Who wrote the Bible?
5. Did God torture His own son so we do not get punished?

Any good Christian soldiers out there that can answer a Muslim these simply worded questions? I doubt it.
My dear Gökh, rest a little andwatch.

mosiuddoula allama said...

assalamualaikum to my muslim brothers and to my cristian brothers,may Allah show marcy to you.As cristians know that we muslims do believe in Jesus(peace be upon him) that he is an Apostle and massenger of Allah almighty because he is mentioned in Quran.cristians don't believe in Muhammad(peace be upon him) because bible don't referred him,right bro?then you are in the dark brother.let me help you out with my hands to pull you to the light.We Muslims perform salaat 5 time a day.So Quran is in our practice everyday.we can recite many chapters from our memory.even There are over 10 million muslim who has memorizes the whole Quran.I have doubt that even 7 out of 10 cristians will fail to quote 5 verse line by line from anywhere from the bible.that's why you don't know the truth.

I'll quote some biblical verse.....

ready???? :-P

Gospel of John 15:26:-'- But when Counselor comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father, he will testify about me.

who is the counselor here brother?can you guess?aa-aaa...

who is that spirit of truth as your thaught?POPES??but "spirit of truth" is in singular form in this verse.let me give you a hint.

"truth" in aramic is "אֱמֶת"
Original Word: אֱמֶת
Part of Speech: noun ; adverb
emeth: firmness, faithfulness, truth
Transliteration: emeth
Phonetic Spelling: (eh'-meth)

Now,you can say what's I am gonna proof with it.lets see...."Ehmeth" which is similar to a Arabic name "Ahmed".What's the big deal in it!right bro?I say it's the biggest deal.Ahmed is the prophesic name of muhammad(sws).

in Quran it is mentioned:- And [mention] when Jesus, the son of Mary, said, "O children of Israel, indeed I am the messenger of Allah to you confirming what came before me of the Torah and bringing good tidings of a messenger to come after me, whose name is Ahmed."   (61:6)

some of you would like to ask "why should Muhammad(sws) be prophesied by another name,'Ahmed'?",Right?bro even Jesus was prophesied in old testiment by the name of "mesaiha".I didn't find the name Jesus or yashua(pbuh) anywhere in the old testiment.is there any?please quote then.

So we can say "the spirit of Ahmed".then says,"the spirit of Ahmed,who goes out from the father,will tastify about me."

Quran testifies Jesus(as)...
Muhammad(sws) testifies Jesus(as) in over 500 of his hadith...


Gospel of John 16:7-8:--7 But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. 
8 When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment:

Jesus(as) is speaking that its good for them that he is going away because,here comes again,the counselor will not be able to come to this world to teach the world what is righteousness and what is judgment unless Jesus go.
now let me ask again who is that "counselor" in cristianity.

Gospel of Matthew 21:43:-This is why I say to you, the Kingdom of God will be taken from you and be given to a nation producing its fruits. 

kingdom of God????"kindom of God" meant here power of God,love of God,the pedigree that God gave them.right???Is this the kingdom,which God has given to sons of the Israel???yeah it is.then Jesus(pbuh) himself says that this kingdom will be shifted to a new nation.Muslims are the new that's what the Quran is also saying about.

mosiuddoula allama said...

Gospel of John 18:37-38:--   So Pilate asked him, "So you are a king?" Jesus answered, "You say that I am a king. I was born for this, and I came into the world for this: to testify to the truth. Everyone who is committed to the truth listens to my voice."
 38  Pilate asked him, "What is 'truth'?" After he said this, he went out to the Jews again and told them, "I find no basis for a charge against him.

If you read this verse carefully you would notice that there is something wrong with it’s context. I mean the question that Pilate adressed to Jesus (Pbuh) when he heard: „testify to the truth”. Note that after hearing this, Pilate asked him in a very strange way: ''What is ‘truth’’’ ?just like he didn’t understand what this word means ! The big question then is why he said: "What is 'truth'?" instead of saying: "What ‘truth’?" Well, if we suppose as various English translations of the Bible says that Pilate asked Jesus „What is truth ?’’ it does not make sense, since historically Pilate was a judge and he dealt with lies and truth almost every day, so how did he not know what truth is ? Even from a grammatical point of view the formulated question (poses by Pilate) that we find in various translation of the Gospel of John it is incorrect ! But now you will be really surprised. Ready ? In the Ancient Aramaic Scriptures, Pilate in John 18:38 says here: ’’Who is the Truth ?’’ !!! 

mosiuddoula allama said...

Who’’  Every one know that „who” is a form of interrogative pronoun i.e. part of speech which applies only to a person ! But the word ’’truth’’ actually stands for a noun not for a person. Now it is very important to know that the hebrew word for ‘’truth’’ is ’emeth’ (אמת) and according to Strong’s Dictionary of Hebrew Bible it correctly pronounced as eh’meth ! As we have seen above, the translation of this verse in the Ancient Aramaic Scriptures indicates that the hebrew word eh'meth - in this case - must refer to the person and not to a thing. This word eh’meth corresponds to Ahmed in view of their phonetic spelling. Apparently this word was a foreign word for Pilate and looks like that made him to ask: „Who is Eh’meth ?” or more probably „Who is Ahmed ?” implying that he was not asking about the truth (which is just a noun) but about a man named Ahmed (person)! That mystery word forced Pilate to repeat what he heard by asking "Who is Ahmed?", and it shows that he realized that Jesus(pbuh) is talking about a person.

mosiuddoula allama said...

Gospel of John 16:12-14:--
12  “I still have many things to say to you, but you are not able to bear them now. 13  However, when that one comes, the spirit of the truth, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak of his own initiative, but what he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things to come.14  That one will glorify me,because he will receive from what is mine and will declare it to you.

★Again the spirit of Ahmed.he will guide us into all the truth(fulfilled truth of Quran)He won't ever speak from himself.he will only say to them what he hear (from angel gebriel bearing Allahs word).we know Quran wasn't a book before,like today.muhammad(sws) use to memorize the revealed part and tell his followers.in 651A.D it was written down.

and he will describe what is going to happend in the early age,how will be the hereafter,the paradise and the hell.prophet Muhammad(sws) described those in thousands of hadiths.He will glorify Jesus(pbuh) because he will spear the same massege with which Jesus(pbuh) delt with,to worship one and only God.(no where in the bible I found,Jesus(pbuh) himself dierectly says worship me).

now i'm quoting a strong evidence....from the old testiment....be ready to believe...

mosiuddoula allama said...

Deuteronomy 18:17-20:--17  Then Jehovah said to me, ‘What they have said is good. 18  I will raise up for them from the midst of their brothers a prophet like you,and I will put my words in his mouth,and he will speak to them all that I command him.19  Indeed, I will require an account from the man who will not listen to my words that he will speak in my name.20  “‘If any prophet presumptuously speaks a word in my name that I did not command him to speak or speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet must die.

Israel(pbuh) is the brother of Ismael(pbuh).Ismael(pbuh) built his home in paran(mecca) desert.(genesis21:21).and Muhammad(sws) is also from the same tribe.So prophet Muhammad(sws) is from there brother.on the other hand he will be a prophet like Moses(pbuh) meant he'll also have book from God,he'll also establish God's law like Moses(pbuh) did.God will put his word in his (prophet's) mouth and he will speak when commanded.Allah's apostle did the same dear brothers.
then it says,he who won't abide by the new word of the God(Quran),will be qustioned.

there's something for you my cristian brothers,in the next verse....my most favourite part :p

if any so called prophet dares to speak out of God's command,or if he supports other gods rather then One God,that false prophet must die,means not a normal death,according to what you are following,taorah.

so according cristian belief,if Jesus(pbuh) was crucified,so he wasn't died a normal death.is that means Jesus(pbuh) spoke out of God's command or he supported other gods,according to that verse no 20 of your followings,not mine.

you're proving that jesus(pbuh) is false prophet.But i know he was a true prophet and massenger.because my Quran says he wasn't crucified.


now,Muhammad(sws) passed away with a normal death.So he didn't spoke out of God's command neither he had supported gods other then the God of Israel,(as the quotation is from the taorah)and as Jesus Crist(pbuh) was also sent for the Israel.So again the same God.When Moses(pbuh) speaks about him,Jesus(pbuh) says about where you guys have problem to believe in him.Jesus(pubh) says about him and we do believe.looks like we are following crist more then the cristians.Moses(pbuh)talks about him,we do believe.yeah...we love Moses(pbuh) more then jews do.

I am not saying you guyz to convert Islam,or something.i am saying that my beloved prophet is prophesied over 26 times in the previous 3 book with enough evidence.but i know it wont make any change.because you all are eye-closed toward the truth.but my dear brother remember,if you close your eyes,only you will be in the dark,day will never turn into dark.day will remain day.....

best of luck brothers...

Assalamualaikum...insaAllah one day peace will built home in your hearts too.... :D

Tom said...

@mosiuddoula allama

First of all your lame, desperate attempt to "legitimise" your false prophet muhammad has been responded to "zillions" times.. you bring nothing new to the table!
Dr David Wood & others has responded many times over.. here is anexample:

http://www.answering-islam.org/Authors/Wood/deuteronomy_deductions.htm


"Those who follow the messenger, the unlettered Prophet, whom THEY find mentioned in THEIR own (scriptures),- in the law and the Gospel;-......... "
sura 7:157

What is this sura stating about the "prophesy" of muhmmad..

The sura states.. "THEY find mentioned in THEIR OWN scriptures"

Who is this, "THEY"?
The people around at that time, who had THEIR own scriptures were Jews & Christians who had the Torah & Gospel!
AND THEY NEVER found muhammad in THEIR OWN scriptures PERIOD

From the start Jews and Christians have rejected muhammad as a 'prophet' of the Judeo- Christian faith.. which resulted in muhmmad showing his "true spirit"...
he inserted these suras :

Sura 8:12 “Remember your Lord inspired the angels with the message: “I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instill terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: you smite them above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them.”

“Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into the hearts of the enemies of Allah. Whatever you spend in the cause of Allah shall be repaid to you and you shall not be treated unjustly.”

“Take not the Jews and Christians for friends ... slay the idolaters [infidels] wherever ye find them. ...Fight against those who ... believe not in Allah nor the Last Day”
(Sura 5:51; 9:5,29,41).

You see what is going on around the world today.. its a continuation of muhmmad's bruised ego when the Jews & Christians REJECTED him as a "propphet"....

islam is at war with ALL non-believers, especially the Jews who saw muhmmad's "true" colours/spirit, he is NOT from the God of Abraham!

muslims will not rest UNTIL ALL Jews, then followed by other non-believers are wiped out! Now, that is the Truth!

Hope you will not take part in this destructive evil spirit/force!

OH by the way how do you know that muhammad is a descendant of Ishmael?
Show us muhmmad's complete genealogy from your koran!

Barry Wind said...

I have read the comments and braying without getting to the point. Question who is GOD and who is ALLAH? Which one is the one true GOD and which is an imposter? We are warned to be absolutely sure the one we are following is the "ONE TRUE GOD"! If this is answered then the arguments are stopped!
We all know that there is a Deceiver who brings false accusations from the beginning of time. He was there in the beginning when GOD placed Adam and then Eve in the garden and commanded them not to eat of the tree of good and evil. But there was also another there the Deceiver that contradicted the true word from GOD and twisted HIS holy command! "Did GOD say, that you couldn't eat of every tree in the garden", the deceiver asked Eve. (Notice that the Deceiver acknowledges who GOD is). The question was very deceitfully framed so that a "conversation" would ensue! No, Eve said. GOD said we can eat of every tree but not the tree in the midst of the garden lest we die! The Deceiver says, "You will not surely die"! "If you eat of it, you will be like GOD knowing good and evil". Eve saw that it was beautiful, good for food and to make one wise! John warned us of the "lust of the eyes, lust of the flesh and the pride of life"... here it is!

Take close note of the subtlety of the Deceiver's statement for it is HIS way of identifying himself in future days throughout earth's history.

Jesus said, "Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life eternal, and there are few who find it." Matt 7:13 - 14
What is Jesus saying? He is saying that there will be many "religions" in the world, but they will be false and only one will give "Life Eternal"!
Why does He say that the correct way would be narrow? For there is ONLY one WAY! Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father but by Me"! This excludes all others who will say that another is the right person to follow.
Why does He say that it would be hard? The Way in is easy, but the Deceiver will scatter many false work trails to lead people off the correct path so they will lose at the end of life!

Look closely at "Allah" of the Quran and judge whether he is "GOD" who was in the garden of Eden or maybe the "Deceiver" who was there. Do the deeds of Allah match what God did in the garden of Eden? Let's look. God gave them all the fruit from the trees for food... that was good! He found Eve then Adam had sinned... did He kill them? No! He put them out of the garden and put an Angel at the entrance so they should not eat of the tree of life and have no hope of eternity with Him. That is a God of love!

Barry Wind said...

Then we read of how Cain killed Able and that God didn't kill him but put a mark on him lest he be killed. Another act of love.

If we go on through the Bible we find that God is love over and over again. Never once did he mutilate his people.
When we get to the New Covenant we find that even GOD himself coming as Jesus laid His life down on a Roman cross so mankind would have the way to be cleansed from sin and like Himself live eternally!

So, who do you supposed is masquerading as God by the name of Allah? Could it be that the old serpent from the garden of Eden has showed up again? This time, to appear as GOD himself and provide another way to lead people away from the truth of the Narrow Gate and eternal life in heaven? Could Mohammed be this "Allah god" a fake messenger to lead many to eternal damnation?

We find that this Allah is not a god of love but of hate and mutilation with the way described by a false prophet called Mohammed and many have gone in thereat.

But God is love told by John one of His disciple's in 1John. In fact, all of the New Covenant which is by Grace and through Faith in the finished work of God (Jesus) on the Cross of Calvary is the ultimate expression of love!!

My plea to you is... Don't miss the only way of salvation and eternal life because you "THINK" you are following the right religion. The Gospel is NOT a religion. It does NOT demand actions and a keeping of laws. For that can NEVER bring freedom from sin and guilt. It is faith in the life of Jesus Christ the Lord of Glory and His sacrifice for your sins. As He rose from the grave so all that believe in Him shall also rise to eternal life!

HE THAT HAS EARS TO HEAR, LET HIM HEAR!

silverguy said...

I spoke to a Muslim convert girl today as usual they have no answer except its not in the Koran until its you can't read it properly if its not in Arabic . they always lie and wiggle out of these things its impossible to talk to such people

Unknown said...

As a non-believer deeply schooled in Christianity(one time seminarian) and familiar with Islam as well, I see a desperate need for the reformation of Islam. I don't know how this is to take place as it involves denial of of the"infallibility" of the prophet. I recently stated on another venue that I was pro Muslim, and therefore anti Islam. Good luck with it, because it has to happen fast. Muslims don't have the luxury of the extra 700 years that Christians had to, finally, around the beginning of the twentieth century, get their tolerance going.-Greenearthman

Joseph said...

@unknown

The problem is that it doesn't matter HOW MUCH time Islam is given to go through it's "Reform". Islam will be the same 5,000 years from now. Christianity never needed a "reform" because Christianity doesn't TEACH violence. Regardless of what ignoramuses will tell you.

Islam on the other hand, clearly instructs it's followers to engage in physical fighting (Surah 4:74), and so to remove a verse like this from the Quran, literally destroys the entire religion. Therefore, Islam will exist, and people will continue to follow its commands, killing people they disagree with, OR Islam will not exist.

The latter won't happen until Jesus comes back. So, unfortunately, we're stuck with it until He gets here.

In the mean-time, we can only spread the truth of the Gospel and pray that Jesus draws them to Himself.

Davis Cherian said...

the whole mission of islam ans muslims can be summed up in this one hadith, ascribed to the "prophet":
Sahih muslim Book 019, Number 4366:
It has been narrated by 'Umar b. al-Khattib that he heard the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) say: I will expel the Jews and Christians from the Arabian Peninsula and will not leave any but Muslim.

Book 019, Number 4367:
This hadith has been narrated on the authority of Zubair with the same chain of transmitters.