Tuesday, March 25, 2014

Muhammad and the Thighing of Aisha

There's been an interesting debate in recent years between Christian apologists and Westernized Muslim apologists over the Islamic practice of "thighing," which involves a Muslim (more specifically, Muhammad) putting his penis between the thighs of a virgin (or a woman during her monthly period) and moving back and forth until he ejaculates.

As usual, Christian apologists got this accusation from Muslim scholars, who refer to the practice in their fatwas (legal rulings by Islamic scholars). The problem is that, whenever we link to a fatwa discussing the Islamic practice of thighing, Westernized Muslims complain to the fatwa site administrators, and the administrators then remove the fatwa. Once the fatwa is removed, Westernized Muslims accuse us of inventing the issue of thighing in order to attack Muhammad!

Just so there's no denying the fact that Muslim scholars issue such rulings, here's a screenshot of a fatwa on thighing that is still available at Islam Web (though it may be taken down once this article circulates):


But this won't convince Westernized Muslim apologists, who, despite their profound ignorance of their own sources, nevertheless believe that they know more about Islam than their scholars and jurists. They will settle for nothing less than a clear Qur'an statement declaring: "Thus saith Allah on the issue of thighing . . .," and even here they would simply reinterpret the passage!

For those of us who are more balanced in our approach and less obsessed with defending Muhammad at all costs, the Muslim sources provide abundant material on the issue of thighing. In order to avoid any accusations of deception, however, I will (1) limit myself to narrations that are available online for everyone to read, and (2) proceed step by step, showing carefully how Muslim scholars arrive at their conclusions.

First, we need to keep in mind that the Muslim sources do not use the word "thighing." Instead, they refer to a practice that is usually translated into English as "fondling" or "playing." The term is used of some sort of sexual practice with virgins and with women during menses (when sex is forbidden, according to Qur'an 2:222). Here are two examples (there are plenty more):
Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 7, Number 17:
Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah: When I got married, Allah's Apostle said to me, "What type of lady have you married?" I replied, "I have married a matron.' He said, "Why, don't you have a liking for the virgins and for fondling them?" Jabir also said: Allah's Apostle said, "Why didn't you marry a young girl so that you might play with her and she with you?" (Available online here.)

Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 1, Number 298:
Narrated 'Aisha: The Prophet and I used to take a bath from a single pot while we were Junub. During the menses, he used to order me to put on an Izar (dress worn below the waist) and used to fondle me. While in Itikaf, he used to bring his head near me and I would wash it while I used to be in my periods (menses). (Available online here.)
Notice that Muhammad found the practice of "fondling" virgins preferable to sex with adult women.

Second, Muhammad used to do something that would leave semen on his clothes. Here are two narrations (again, there are plenty more):
Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 1, Number 231:
Narrated Sulaiman bin Yasar: I asked 'Aisha about the clothes soiled with semen. She replied, "I used to wash it off the clothes of Allah's Apostle and he would go for the prayer while water spots were still visible." (Available online here.)

Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 1, Number 233:
Narrated 'Aisha: I used to wash the semen off the clothes of the Prophet and even then I used to notice one or more spots on them. (Available online here.)
What was Muhammad doing that left semen all over his clothes? Since Muhammad condemned both masturbation and coitus interruptus (removing the penis from a woman before ejaculation), this leaves Westernized Muslim apologists to argue that Muhammad's semen marks were the result of nocturnal emissions (wet dreams). But Muhammad had far, far too much sex to have nocturnal emissions.
Sahih al-Bukhari Volume 1, Number 268: Narrated Qatada: Anas bin Malik said, "The Prophet used to visit all his wives in a round, during the day and night and they were eleven in number." I asked Anas, "Had the Prophet the strength for it?" Anas replied, "We used to say that the Prophet was given the strength of thirty (men)." And Sa'id said on the authority of Qatada that Anas had told him about nine wives only (not eleven). (Available online here.)

Sahih al-Bukhari Volume 7, Number 142: Narrated Anas bin Malik: The Prophet used to pass by (have sexual relation with) all his wives in one night, and at that time he had nine wives. (Available online here.)
Even with so many wives, Muhammad got in trouble for having sex with his slave-girl, Mary the Copt.

So the semen on Muhammad's clothes didn't result from masturbation, coitus interruptus, or nocturnal emissions. Via the process of elimination, that leaves us with some sort of sexual practice with his wives, which didn't involve masturbation, but also didn't involve penetration. Hence, Muhammad must have been using his wives' bodies to pleasure himself. Apart from penetration, how did Muhammad use his wives' bodies to satisfy his sexual urges? Muslim scholars have a simple answer that explains all of the data: Muhammad practiced "thighing."

Moreover, since Muhammad found the practice of thighing virgins preferable to sex with grown women (as we saw in Sahih al-Bukhari), he must have had some experience with thighing virgins. Muhammad married Aisha when she was six years old, but didn't consummate the marriage until she was nine years old. This three-year period between marriage and consummation must have been the time when he practiced thighing (unless our Muslim friends want to argue that he practiced thighing with a different virgin).

Of course, if Westernized Muslim apologists want to argue that Muhammad didn't practice thighing, they're free to explain the data in some other way. They merely need to tell us (a) what the practice of "fondling" involved, (b) what Muhammad was doing that left semen all over his clothes, and (c) why Muslim scholars have concluded that Muhammad practiced thighing. If they can explain these issues successfully, I suppose we'll have to drop the issue of thighing.

In the meantime, it's a bit disingenuous for Westernized Muslim apologists to accuse us of deception, when we only started drawing attention to "thighing" because Muslim scholars were talking about it. When we factor in the evidence from the Hadith, which is entirely consistent with thighing and inexplicable without it, we can only conclude that Muslim scholars who describe this early Islamic practice are absolutely correct.

Alternatively, Westernized Muslim apologists might want to take an indirect approach, by arguing that Muhammad couldn't have practiced thighing, since Muhammad is the pattern of conduct for all men (Qur'an 33:21), and "thighing" a little girl obviously isn't something that Islam's highest pattern of conduct would do. But let's face it. Muhammad (1) had sex with a prepubescent girl, (2) had sex with nearly a dozen women in one day, (3) had sex with his slave-girl in his wife's bed, (4) married the divorced wife of his own adopted son, (5) married a woman after having her husband tortured and killed, (6) allowed his followers to rape their female captives, (7) allowed his followers to hire prostitutes, and (8) promised his followers a paradise of eternal erections, which they will use to endlessly deflower their virgins. If Muslims want to argue that a man who did and taught all of this simply couldn't put his penis between his child-bride's legs, we'll have to wait patiently for their proof.

31 comments:

Sisgp said...

I was going to comment, but I'm simply speechless!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2589105/Shocking-reaction-blonde-woman-caught-video-crowds-men-swarm-walks-Cairo-university-campus.html

Vineet Pal said...

What a Filthy person he was? and people pray to such sex-maniacs. may our risen lord and saviour guide whole of these followers out of adultery and filthiness...

Christlike said...

Musllims have blasphemed greatly against God, thank God they have a unique name, Allah

Quran is Corrupt said...

You should do a quick blog about this, how blonde girls are special treat for Muslim men;

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2589105/Shocking-reaction-blonde-woman-caught-video-crowds-men-swarm-walks-Cairo-university-campus.html


...and remind everyone that Muhammad enticed his men, and some of them were shocked, by telling them they should attack Europe to get BLONDE GIRLS. (more proof Muhammad was NOT a prophet);

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZgojGwgNKI

Here is more proof that Muslims LOVE THEIR BLONDE women (Western Blonde girl treated like goddess and sex object while visiting the Egyptian Pyramids). This is why Muhammad tempted his men with blonde girls as booty to follow his false prophethood;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CC5Sq-KRY6I



geof arnold said...

“Muhammad… promised his followers a paradise of eternal erections, which they will use to endlessly deflower their virgins.”

How is this possible if we are just spirits in the afterlife without a physical body?

As the Jesus of the original true Gospels says,

“The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage, but those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage” Luke 20:34-35

Muhammad, that great adulterer/fornicator’s promise of endless adultery/fornication in the afterlife (if this is forbidden on earth, why would it be allowed in heaven?) shows that he was just another carnal, self-serving criminal/gangster who sowed to the flesh and gained the things of this world (worldly gain) rather than sowing to the spirit to gain eternal life.

…for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption (dead end), but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap eternal life. Galatians 6:8

Surely the penny has to eventually drop for some of these Muslims in regard to the true identity/criminal nature of this so-called 'prophet' that they are blindly following. Eventually they must have to wake up to themselves and realise what is going on. They surely could not be that dumb.

David Wood said...

Geof,

Resurrection is physical, according to both Christianity and Islam.

Humberto Gutiérrez said...

Great article, I will save this post for use it later while talking with Muslims, thanks David.

kleitman2@aol.com said...

His predilictions are interestingly similar to the infamous cult leaders David Koresh and Jim Jones (of the Jonestown Massacre, where he convinced his followers to drink poisoned Koolade).

Both of those men had predilictions for both the wives of their followers and for little girls.

Just sayin.

geof arnold said...

David you said,

"Resurrection is physical, according to both Christianity and Islam."

I stand corrected, but there will be nothing like the Islamic heaven, since God's purpose from the start (before the fall. Genesis 3) for creating male and female (Genesis 1:27) in the first place, is for them to get married to one person and form a single family unit (Genesis 2:24).

And after all is said and done, the curse (Genesis 3:17) will be no more (Revelation 22:3) and there will be a new heaven and earth (Revelation 21:1) with the old one gone (2Peter 3:13) and everything back to the original good creation (Revelation 21:4), with nothing evil in it. So there obviously won’t be anything like the Islamic heaven in existence.

David Wood said...

Correct.

MrGreen said...

Hi everyone, I have to start by saying I am a Muslim (shiia) and I believe in God and prophet Muhamad (PBUH) and Prophet Jeasus(PBUH).
Regarding this Article. Many Muslim do not take Sahih Bokhori as an official "Hadith-religous text" book. as it is an extremely corrupt book.
the only way to clarify is to compare with the Quran. And In Quran It directly says maximum number of wives at the same time is 4 but it says a man has to take first wife permit to marry second and so on. It is true that Prophet Got married to about 9 women but they were not at the same time frame. also Aisha is a controversial figure as She cause a lot of mischief and her records has no legitimacy. as she caused bloodshed between Muslims.
I have to admit Many Sunni Muslims regard this "sahih Bokhori and sahih Muslim" as legitimate but honestly it is as legitimate as harry potter books.
you need to study way more about this issue to conclude at any point.

Danny L. Newton said...

I wonder if Mr. Green was channeling the Green Prophet.

Bart Connolly said...

Mr Gree3n asserts "sahih Bokhori and sahih Muslim" are unreliable
Yet http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadith
says
"Bukhari's collection is considered by many traditional religious scholars as the most reliable." Maybe Mr green should try editing the Wikipedia entry to assert that most muslims dont believe this and see what Muslims think of that?
Furthermore ignoring the above two as unreliable
Source:
http://www.muslimhope.com/AishaNine.htm

Lists SIX additional sources and continues "The majority view affirms the reliability of these hadiths. If the hadiths and historians are to be trusted, then Mohammed, at around 53 years old, did have sex with a nine year old girl. "

He offers a scorecard with 21 strong references 7 weaker ones and only 1 counter reference al tyabari ( which by the way also has 3 of the weaker references)

Bart Connolly said...

subsequent to Mr Green I note he mentions being a shia muslim. Note Sunni Muslims are more likely to value hadith.A study conducted by the Pew Research Center in 2010 and released January 2011[10] found that there are 1.62 billion Muslims around the world, and it is estimated that the Sunni population is between 75% and 90%.[11] Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunni_Islam
Kutub al-Sittah are six books containing collections of hadiths. Most Sunni Muslims accept the hadith collections of Bukhari and Muslim as the most authentic (sahih, or correct), and while accepting all hadiths verified as authentic.
Shias like Mr Green prefer hadith attributed to the Ahl al-Bayt and close associates, and have their own separate collection of hadiths.[36][37] Source http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shia_Islam#Hadith
The Shi'a view of Aisha is generally unfavourable. This is primarily due to what they see as her contempt for the Ahl al-Bayt

Donna Morrow said...

I just want to say that when Mr. Green came here to offer a Muslim's viewpoint, some of you displayed impolite, malicious attitudes. How do you ever expect to win him to the Lord if you act hatefully?

Disagree with him, sure, but use an attitude that Jesus would approve of. At the very least, be as polite as Mr Green is.

Donna Morrow

Donna Morrow said...

I just want to say something here. Mr Green was kind enough to share his opinion in a respectful manner, and the attitudes of some of the comments to him were not what Jesus would have approved of.

Why do people need to be hateful when they disagree about religion? ARE you all trying to win Mr Green to the Lord Jesus, or are you just looking for a chance to sneer at him? Where is your love for his soul? Mr Green, I apologize for the wrong attitudes expressed here, Sir.

Donna Morrow

Bart Connolly said...

Donna Morrow . there have been TWO posters since Mr Green and yourself. One poster posted a one line comment. I posted two longer posts. You then suggested that SOME posters have been nasty . Your actual words were
"some of you displayed impolite, malicious attitudes."

Some means more than one so given there were only TWO and "some" means plural could you please point out where any of MY posts were impolite and malicious?

Donna Morrow said...

Hello Bert,

Thanks for your correction. First of all, I didn't mean to post twice. My Firefox browser went into a state of "Not Responding," and I didn't realize both posts went through.

In rereading these posts, I see only one that's offensive. I did not say YOU. I didn't single out anyone. My comment was made with future Muslims browsing the net in mind, as well as Mr Green's feelings.

I came here from a Facebook post someone had made with an image of 10 points where the Qur'an encouraged rape, physical abuse of wives and female slaves, stealing from unbelievers, and so on. In searching the Qur'an scriptures for accuracy that had been given in the post, I saw that none of them were correct according to http://quran.com/.

Then, I learned that the Qur'an has multiple translations. The version used at http://quran.com/ does not have the beat/scourge instruction is it, but it does say to strike a wife as a last resort.

I came here in an indignant frame of mind. No one should purposely misquote scripture or reference books in order to make themselves appear correct. Not here, but in the Facebook post, I mean.

After reading so many mean comments and slurs on Facebook, coming from Christians, I came here and saw "I wonder if Mr. Green was channeling the Green Prophet." And that was my tipping point.

I apologize to anyone I offended. I'm just thinking, how can Christians win Muslims when so many of them backbite and seem so comment to score points? That won't change anyone's heart.

It's no wonder that unbelievers say we are hypocrites, and they don't want what we have. Does anyone believe that Jesus approves of the bad attitudes Christians use when they rebut to win an argument, rather than to share truth?

So, that's where my head was when I posted here. I did not read every post here. I skimmed most of them. So I hope you will forgive my inaccurate assumption.

TheTru North said...

Donna Morrow...I grew up in Pakistan...have you ever lived there? If you haven't... go live there as a Christian and see how "polite" they are to you when you share your opinion about Christianity. I do not want to make this a long post but believe me...when it comes to western muslims they have a whole new way of interpreting the koran. Ex. Western muslims say Jesus is a prophet etc and we respect him. In Pakistan they curse the name of Jesus and they do not respect him. Why the disconnect? Who am I going to believe? White washed muslims?

Bart Connolly said...

Donna Morrow
If you are apologising for offending me, and are sincerely sorry I accept that apology. In fact Christianity suggests that all repentant sinners are forgiven. But you still have not answered my question. If you can show where I was malicious please do so because I can assure I beat no malice against anyone who is discussing with me in a peaceful manner.
Now let us suppose someone -not necessarily YOU but I will assume "you" is offensive.
In fact even if I totally disagree with you and you do offend me I still think you should be allowed to say what offends me. Although I would prefer if you did not offend me with your words I will defend your right to say them and hope you will engage and change your mind or admit if you are wrong.
Likewise if i make any mistake I too should correct it and I should not offend you even if it was not intentional.
In this way we both have a fair hearing and a level playing field and can proceed in a just manner. We should be fair and honest in our dealings with each other and this is important because peace is built on justice.

Jake Dones said...

You are pushing the evidence. You can only maintain that Mohamed Married a 9 y/o and have a good weapon supported by evidence. As for fondling or whatever, married couples do that. The "playing" thing, younger people tend to be more playful. As for the marriage at the age of 9, surrounding evidence invalidates the possibility of that occurrence. Other "facts" are based on hadith and not coran, so its authenticity can always be in dispute, regardless of who give that opinion. You folks are just hateful, you can make anything or anyone sound disgusting. Insults, and hateful speech. That is not a way to dispute Islam. It has many logical flaws of its own. Being disgusting just turns you into a hateful human being. I learned to open my mind with science and data, not this filthy crap of yours

Bart Connolly said...

Jake Dones says It has many logical flaws of its own. but he does not supply any?
He also claims "As for fondling or whatever, married couples do that." But this is the point! TODAY older men are marrying six year olds and nine year olds and doing that. saying "wee they are married" does not make it right does it? And they are doing it based on it being the right and acceptable thing to do based on Islamic tradition. So if you think the tradition and the Hadiths are wrong you should say so! You should say that any Imam supporting this behaviour is wrong if you claim it is in fact wrong. You should also claim that any of the 24 Hadiths are wrong and all other sources from those Isnads are ALL also in doubt or wrong if you believe these Hadiths to be wrong. so do you say that the Hadiths are wrong? I do not believe you will. And wher is your other evidence that the ages of six and nine are wrong?

Oh My Gawd said...

Females are only sex toys to these males supremacists. But I don't know which is more revolting, thighing of infants or Muhammad's semen on his pants! Both are too disgusting to contemplate.

Seda Ada said...

Back then they wouldn't count a woman's age until they hit puberty so if they said she married him at 9 it means she hit puberty 9 years before the marriage. This is proven by the timeline of history where Abu bakr's first daughter (from his previous marriage) was 29 when the prophet Mohommad (saw) married Aisha and they had 10 yrs age gap between them (aisha and her step sister- proven historically) so Aisha wouldve been atleast 19 when she married the prophet Mohammad

Brian Holm said...

The dead have a continued and conscious
existence of a kind in the grave.

Muslims believe that, upon dieing,
a person enters an intermediate phase of life
between death and resurrection.

Many events take place in this new "world",
such as the "trial" of the grave,
where everyone will be questioned by angels
about their religion, prophet, and Lord.

The grave is a garden of paradise or a pit of hell;
angels of mercy visit the souls of believers
and angels of punishment come for the unbelievers.

WHEN YOU READ
you feel Hear more in this way it is written.

Muhammad ibn ‘Abdullāh is born in
"the year of the Elephant". 570 AD

Muhammad marries his wealthy
twice-divorced distant cousin, Khadijah,

who later becomes his first follower.

She had already borne two sons and a daughter
from her previous marriages,
and the union between her and the "insignificant" Muhammad
is a controversial one which almost leads to bloodshed 595 AD

For the first time,613 AD
Muhammad begins to preach Islam publicly in Mecca.
His preaching is met with skepticism,and he is accused
of plagiarizing the “tales of the ancients”.

One of his most sternest of critics is his own uncle,
Abu Lahab, who is cursed by name in the Qur'an.

The Meccans ask for miracles, but Muhammad gives them none.

http://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Timeline_of_Muhammad

SEE THIS (A Near Idea Of What and who he was)
YEAR U READ IN 2015 (Mindset´s Defrent NOW)

YEAR 570 595 613
BORN Life make Him Poor
WIFE(MILF)WAY TO SHINE True
TIME to Build A Future Eyes see

Curtis Axel said...

Mohammed seems like a pretty considerate guy to wait years before doing sex, I bet he did not want to do sex with Aisha until she was 18 and would have been fine thighing until then but Aisha's dad Abu Bakr probably heard about it and got mad and pressured him to do it.

Unknown said...

Nothing more than masturbation.

adam channel said...

you are very good at twisting hadith, 1st might i say for a Christian; you have a high standard for a prophet (for a Christian) ,seeing as your prophets also had concubines and also war, sex slaves ONLY Differance your Biblical prophets commited Adulury & Commited Incest (according to your bible).. now i have have seen your Videos, it is pathetic you twist hadith
the Actual Hadith:
Narrated Jabir bin `Abdullah:
My father died and left seven or nine girls and I married a matron. Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) said to me, "O Jabir! Have you married?" I said, "Yes." He said, "A virgin or a matron?" I replied, "A matron." he said, "Why not a virgin, so that you might play with her and she with you, and you might amuse her and she amuse you." I said, " `Abdullah (my father) died and left girls, and I dislike to marry a girl like them, so I married a lady (matron) so that she may look after them." On that he said, "May Allah bless you," or "That is good."

Vol. 7, Book 64, Hadith 280

there is nothing wrong with that hadith , if anything it Show marrage at a young age was the Norm as it was during Jesus time (Mary 12 year -Joseph 90 years old)

Bart Connolly said...

Adam channel misses the point.
1. Christianity or Judaism does refer to the occasional instances of insest or sex with children but IT CONDEMNS SUCH ACTS. It does not hold them up as an example to be copied
2. christianity has a record of at least 1800 years against sex between children and adults.
3.There in NO EVIDENCE of Mary being 12 and Joseph being 90 from any reference in the six centuries before Mohammad and christian and Islamic references ALL SAY Mary was a virgin i.e. she did not have sex with Joseph so the example isnt valid.

alex Adam said...

yup idiot motherless pig David wood.you get your pants when when debate with someone.
tell me what you want to prove here?
i do not get ant thing out of what you are copying from other palaces..does not make any sense.

you are discussing some one personal life and slandering him

tell me whats wrong here?????????
also look at your life?????????? what a filth you are

itemabu said...

I think, there is another possibility explaining the cloth full of cement. Muhammad was reported to be witched so that he thought the he had sex with his wives while actually he did not. So he might wet his clothes during his insanity. LOL