Saturday, February 22, 2014

A Muslim Admits That Allah Prays

One of the most common Muslim objections to the deity of Christ is the question "If Jesus is God, why did he pray?" This question makes sense on a surface level, since Christians claim that Jesus is God and we also claim that he prays. But this is one of the many reasons we are Trinitarians, not unitarians. As one of the three persons of the Trinity, the Son was in eternal communion with the Father, because they shared the same essence. When the Son entered creation as Jesus of Nazareth, he continued that communion with the Father through prayer. Hence, while Jesus praying would be a problem for a unitarian who claims that Jesus is God, it makes perfect sense in light of Trinitarian theology.

But Muslims are unitarians, which means that they would have a huge problem if their god prays. And we find this problem in the Qur'an:

Qur'an 33:56—Verily, Allah and His angels pray for the prophet. O ye who believe! pray for him and salute him with a salutation!

Muslim translators are so horrified by the implications of this verse that they often mistranslate the relevant portion as "Allah and his angels send blessings on the prophet." The problem is that there are perfectly good Arabic words for "send blessings," but those words aren't used here. The Arabic word used of whatever Allah and his angels are doing is yusalloona, which is a verbal form of the word salah (prayer and worship). Thus, the most obvious translation involves Allah praying for Muhammad.

While this is clear to anyone who reads the verse and understands what yusalloona means, it's always nice to see an Arabic-speaking Muslim admit that Allah prays. This is precisely what happened today on Facebook.

A Muslim named Faruque Ikramul started a post mocking Christians for believing that Jesus is God when the Bible declares that Jesus prayed.


Instead of answering the objection, I decided to turn the tables:


Faruque apparently missed the quotation, so he asked for the reference:


After sharing the reference again, a Muslim named Avari jumped in with a common mistranslation:


Interestingly, after going back and reading the verse more carefully, Avari realized that the verse plainly says that Allah prays. Avari's only misunderstanding was that he somehow thought I was claiming that Allah prays to Muhammad (and therefore that Muhammad was Allah's god). But I was simply pointing out the obvious:


In the end, Avari simply admitted that Allah prays. And he didn't see any problem with this:


It's refreshing to see a Muslim happily acknowledge that Allah prays. But again, since Muslims are unitarians, why don't they see a problem here? Why don't they ask who Allah is praying to? And why do they continue to pester Christians with questions like "If Jesus is God, who was he praying to?" when the same may be asked of Allah (only in a far more devastating manner, because Muslims deny the Trinity)? Inquiring minds want to know.

82 comments:

Anonymous said...

The Bible doesn't make much sense at all, but I'm glad you made your point. Keep up all of the good work David... It's good to see someone other than atheists standing up to Muslims.

Mark Chetkin said...

Awesome! With enough finess, you can get them to admit what they try so desperately to conceal. The issue then becomes that if they are aware of the implications, why do they continue to conceal and defend the deception?

Dacritic said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Anonymous said...

Sure whats the problem with it ?? who created all things, even prayers ?? you people really are something else I swear. feel free to watch my video responce to his deliberate attack and the fact he didn't post the rest of my post. If God created all things, isn't prayers part of all things ?? to suggest Allah is not the same Aramaic Jesus would say himself is blasphemy in itself. you don't even realize you say jesus is god, but he prayed as well. your point is pointless. peace be with you brother i truly mean that.

Anonymous said...

Muslims will also often try to blend the meaning prayer and worship, but prayer by itself, as performed by Jesus is not in any sense worship, but was a means of petitioning/asking the Father for certain things during His temporary earthly servitude and also as an an example for us to follow in regards to how we should pray.

Dacritic said...

David, you might have come across this website prophetofdoom.net. If you haven't, you could probably guess who this website is referring to. However, the website also has a link to another page by the same author, questioningpaul.com. I'm wondering if you would have time to go through that too and I would appreciate your comments!

Anonymous said...

Lord Brian, you say,

"It's good to see someone other than atheists standing up to Muslims."

I don't think you atheists should go big noting yourselves or claiming too much credit, since, as explained below, you are actually a big part of the problem.

Atheism as a defence against Islam.

There are some who believe that the promotion of universal atheism by way of evolutionary indoctrination is a means by which Islam can be defeated.

Two points that refute this notion:

•Islam can permeate and influence every facet and level of a society, that is, socially and politically etc. It uses many other systems and means of conquest besides religious indoctrination; so what people don’t believe in is irrelevant.

•But the main reason that atheism is no defence, is that, because it denies God and Christ, it is actually part of the Antichrist itself and therefore cannot but help other elements of that system (which includes Islam), which it does in the following manner:

Wherever atheism abounds, Islam has easy entrance, since atheism (and evolutionary humanistic teaching) is actually holding the gate open by undermining or removing vital defensive knowledge (Scripture and word of Christ) and creating a largely ignorant, blind and defenceless population.

The Antichrist as a whole (called Babylon in Revelation) cannot and will not fight against itself.

“Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation… And if Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then will his kingdom stand?” Mathew 12:25, 26

The following quote from Richard Dawkins:

“I have mixed feelings about the decline of Christianity, in so far as Christianity might be a bulwark against something worse.” The Times (UK), 2 April 2010

This, as I said at the start, is the reason that atheists are part of the problem, namely, that atheists have been and are actively contributing to the decline and downfall of Christianity and its basic principles which have in the past well proven to be the bulwark mentioned by Dawkins.

Dacritic said...

The real issue on this post isn't in Allah praying. The issue on this post is that Faruque uploaded a post "ha ha ha"-ing at Jesus praying to the Father. So in a sense, Faruque "started it". Christians have no problem with Jesus praying to the Father because of the Trinity, but since Faruque "ha ha ha"-ed at "God (the Son) praying to God (the Father)", he failed in the first place to recognize in his own Quran that his god also prayed, we assume, to himself. So he has no grounds to "ha ha ha" at Jesus.

Deleting said...

Cam said, 'Sure whats the problem with it ?? who created all things, even prayers ??'

Cam, the problem is if your god is a singular Unitarian being that is ONE person, then prayer is obsolete!!!
We are trinitarians, meaning the being that is god (whose name is YHWH and NOT Allah) is three distinct persons sharing that being. There is unity in the godhead so the son praying to the father is not an issue because the father in status is greater than all.
Go back to Islam for a second, your singular being and person of Allah has to pray? Pray to whom if he is all powerful and does what he wants?



' If God created all things, isn't prayers part of all things ??'
This is irrelevant to the verse to cited. The point is Allah has to offer prayers for Muhammad...TO WHO?

Is there a god above Allah? If so, you my friend, are violating your own book and committing blasphemy by worshipping Allah and not the true God.

Anonymous said...

Bob,

While I don't want to stray off topic, there are some things that Don't make PERFECT sense in the Bible in General, but that I can take up with David...


But there's one thing that DOESN'T make sense to me regarding Jesus praying.

Here, David says that God and Jesus are of the same essence - fair enough...

But then, if they share the same essence, why doesn't Jesus know when the second coming is? I know David and Sam spoke about this on Jesus or Muhammad, but I can't remember which episode it was...

In any case, while the Bible doesn't make that much sense to me, it makes far more sense than the Qur'an, as this article proves. Makes me want to be an apologetic too sometimes...

Anonymous said...

"Makes me want to be an apologetic too sometimes..."

Well you could start by undoing some of the many distortions of the Scriptures invented and promoted by atheists which Muslims have latched onto and are using against Christianity. That would be nice.

Deleting said...

"But then, if they share the same essence, why doesn't Jesus know when the second coming is?"

Acts 1:7. He said to them: "It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority.

There is still a hierarchy within the being that is God. In order it shows The father is first, the second is the son and third is the holy spirit. There is no contradiction here, if anything your question is your answer. Jesus is not first in the Godhead, he is second and subserivent to the father as is the spirit.

John 8:24 said...

@Cam avari

Your comments reveal that you are not the brightest bulb in the box. Isn't it? But I am not sure you are smart enough to see that. By the way, kudos to David who has to put up with people who have an IQ of a room temperature!

Ok, Cam avari, it is clear that you don't seem to get it (or maybe don't want to get it because of your pride and arrogance) in spite of the argument put forward is very simple and basic. Why don't you simply answer the following questions and do a favor to yourself and other Muslims out there:

1) Since you accepted that Allah prayed, whom did Allah pray to?

2) Since your Muslim friend was suggesting that Jesus prayed like a Muslim with his face down: Now tell me what posture Allah used while praying? Did he also bow and fell on his face to pray? To whom was Allah bowing to?

John 8:24 said...

@Cam avari

By the way, your reasoning that Allah created prayers is totally irrelevant. The point is Allah of Islam prayed to someone and bowed to someone or Allah prayed to himself and bowed to himself. If he prayed to someone then that someone is greater than Allah! If he prayed to himself and bowed to himself then it is rather stupid of him (to say the least). But Jesus does not have problem when he prays because he is praying to His Father. Christian theology has no problem with Jesus praying - it part of Christian doctrine for hundreds of years before Islam! And Christians do not have a problem that Jesus, who became a man and left his glory that he shared with his Father, fell on his face to pray to his Father. It is an imaginary problem created by some ignorant Muslims (it is an imaginary gotcha!). On the other hand Allah praying is a real problem for Islamic theology and for Muslims. You just can't escape it.

John 8:24 said...

And what do you actually mean by Allah "created prayers"? Do you mean that he created the way the Muslims pray? The five time a day prayers based on the sun already existed in Zoroastrianism for centuries before Islam. They called it Gah prayer. The five prayers are called Havaan, Rapithwan, Uziren, Aiwisuthrem and Ushaen in Zoroastrianism. They correspond to Fajr, Zuhar, Asr, Maghrib and Isha in Islam.

They even had to face a particular direction, had a call to prayer, had to wash themselves and cover their head! Does not seem very creative of Allah of Islam to copy stuff from other religions. Does it?

Herakleios said...

It is sad to see how blind a Person can be.
Cam Avari - if Allah prays for Mohammed ... then to WHOM goes this prays? You always pray TO someone FOR someone.
For example, i could pray TO God FOR the health of my Family.

So Allah prays TO ????? FOR Mohammed ?

hugh watt said...

LB

.."why doesn't Jesus know when the second coming is?"

When He came from Heaven to Earth He had humbled Himself as a servant, laid aside His Majesty and became dependent upon the Holy Spirit to carry out His mission which is a blueprint for Christians to follow.

As Adam was a sinless man who blew Paradise Christ came in a sinless form to regain it (for all who believe), through His sacrifice at Calvary.

Philippians 2 details this and John 17:5 says before He went to the cross Jesus asked His Father for the glory which He had before the foundation of the world to be returned to Him.

So when Jesus said He did not know when He was coming back, you need to apply the tenses: Yesterday I did, today I do, tomorrow I will do.

hugh watt said...

Cam

Do you not see that Allah praying to someone else would be shirk?

If Allah created sleep would you say Allah sleeps? How about other human functions, e.g, sex?

Deleting said...

'If Allah created sleep would you say Allah sleeps? How about other human functions, e.g, sex?'

Or pooping. Allah created that too yet he'll 'pray' to something that is greater than he is though he created it (which explains a lot of his vows) but he won't go potty, something he probably needs to do because he's SO full of sh**.

Cam, either you don't understand what prayer is or you know understand the relationship between a creator and his creation and that's sad.

Tom said...

The "debate" continued with the present day deceiver, "nathan lean",
The huge difference bewteen nathan lean and cam avari, was he, cam avari was asked to read it in arabic and he saw & agreed, But when the so called muslim "scholars" read it they know this is a "screw up" hence their manipulation of their word!

Previously when Christian's debate a muslim using their koran and they get caught out they will say But "you must read it in arabic" and now we use the arabic they use the translation... :)
muslims, you have a perfectly twisted, incoherent, adulterated, perverted, plagiarised, "book"!

TPaul said...

Can, you don't seem to comprehend the concept of prayer, and you make a ridiculous statement like that saying that it is OK for Allah to pray. Praying requires one to appeal to a higher authority. So our question tho Muslims is when Allah decides trio pray for his favorite prophet, who is the higher authority he is appealing to?

RG said...

About a year ago I decided to acquaint myself with the Koran. It amused me and nauseated me all at the same time.

The one thing that really struck me as totally weird was that, I had barely read for 5 minutes when I started noticing that allah continuously refers to himself in the plural context. "We", "us", etc, etc.

"We"? "us"? Shoot, that sounds pretty trinitarian to me! In the Bible, in Genesis, Elohim says, "Let US make man in our own image." Gee, I just have to wonder, ya don't s'pose mo was reading his Bible when he decided to distort his own version of it??? Hmmmm!!!!

So there it is, right under their noses--their own 'false' prophet refers to his 'unitarian' god in the plural form. Proof positive that the koran is a vile deception and a fraud!!!!!

Truth be told, mohammed distorted and plagiarized everything he wrote in the koran. Most of it comes directly from the Bible, a distorted product of mohammed's demented, demonic imaginations.

RG said...

Your blogger is messed up! I submitted my comment prior to creating an account--there was no warning to the contrary! Now my comment has been erased! Ya think you could post a warning (or figure out a way to save the comment--w/o deleting it?????

RG said...

I stand corrected. My comment was not erased. My bad!!!

David Wood said...

Yeah, I'll post a giant warning saying: "YOU MUST HAVE A BLOGGER ACCOUNT TO COMMENT ON BLOGGER." Should I put this warning where the "Answering Muslims" banner is?

RG said...

My bad! My comment wasn't lost. I didn't read the part telling me that my comment had been saved, pending approval. Thanks for answering back though!

If you post a warning, I suppose it couldn't hurt to tell guys like me to keep their shirt on! Oops!!!

Umm Yusuf said...

Greetings all,

I stumbled across this blog while I was searching for something else completely. I thought I would offer some insight into the apparent dilemma that the verse you have pointed out poses.

I begin in Allah's name and I ask the He allows me to do justice in answering.

The first thing I need to make clear is that the Qur'an was revealed in the Arabic language. This is made clear in this verse "We have sent it down as an Arabic Qur'an so you people may understand / use reason" (12:2):
So those who adhere to Islam learn Arabic to lesser or greater degrees in order to understand the true message from the Creator.

The word Qur'an means recitation because it was revealed and recited not created.

Arabic is a very intricate language and meanings are conveyed through the forms the words take and the context.

Arabic works on root words usually comprising of 3 letters from which concepts can be formed using different morphology. All Arabic letters are made up of consonants and vowels are added either on top of or underneath the letter.

Using prefix and suffix determines the tense, gender and form (1st, 2nd or 3rd person)to convey meaning.

Allah says "yusalloona" (transliteration of the Arabic)which looks like a word but is actually a sentence. The root word is three letters Waw Swad Lam and means to connect, arrive, unite, link, contact, when broken down the sentence means "They(masculine plural)send greetings" the verse that you quotes says what means " Allah and the Angles all send their greetings to the Prophet" Not prays for.

So essentially Allah conveyed in Arabic using one word what is conveyed in English in 3 or more.

Unfortunately the interpretation of the Qur'an in English that you quoted did not make this clear and in turn caused unnecessary confusion.

Salaat which is the ritual form of worship that we Muslims perform does not mean praying it means connecting. We are connecting with our Creator and sustainer a minimum of five times a day and we are closest to Him in prostration because this is the most humble position one can assume. Which is what Jesus (peace be upon Him) did.

Prayer or supplication is called dua which can be done sitting standing, walking laying down and can be done liberally during ones day.

Allah says what means; Who remember Allah while standing or sitting or [lying] on their sides and give thought to the creation of the heavens and the earth, [saying], "Our Lord, You did not create this aimlessly; exalted are You [above such a thing]; then protect us from the punishment of the Fire. 3:191

I kindly urge any of my Muslim brothers and sisters not to answer questions regarding the Words of Allah if they do not have any knowledge on the subject they are being questioned.

Please let us all be respectful of each others practices and aim to discover the truth not just to be proven right as we are all seeking to please our Creator. Peoples hearts change and what we believe today might change tomorrow we do not want to be the cause of pushing people away from the path of God.

Greetings
Umm Yusuf

Herakleios said...

So why is it called 5 prayers a das? Are all the arabic speaking Muslims misguiding the English speaking Muslims? Should it be called "get in contact with god 5 times a day" ... Or maybe "say hello to god 5 times a day"? Umm Yusuf, you are basicly saying, that Muslims don't worship god with prayers?

Deleting said...

Umm Yusuf said in his diatribe 'Allah says "yusalloona" (transliteration of the Arabic)which looks like a word but is actually a sentence. The root word is three letters Waw Swad Lam and means to connect, arrive, unite, link, contact, when broken down the sentence means "They(masculine plural)send greetings" the verse that you quotes says what means " Allah and the Angles all send their greetings to the Prophet" Not prays for. '

Liar. That's not what it means at all. By the way, Arabic is another language and like all languages it can be translated into English. All the nuances may not copy over but the context is what's important and in every single instance where it appears in the Koran it means 'to pray' and not 'greet'.

Deleting said...

'I kindly urge any of my Muslim brothers and sisters not to answer questions regarding the Words of Allah if they do not have any knowledge on the subject they are being questioned.'

You mean they should do a better job lying to other people, like you did.

It is not hard to figure out context umm or look up root words and see how those words are being used. Your whole post was deceitful and offensive.
Shame on you, your religion and your ummah who taught you to lie like this(and to do it so poorly I might add).

Deleting said...

'Please let us all be respectful of each others practices and aim to discover the truth not just to be proven right as we are all seeking to please our Creator'

Yet you don't like reading do you, because the Muslims this post was about denigrated OUR creator (and yours) and disrespected our religion because YOUR religion says to do so.

Liar AND you're not that bright.

Umm Yusuf said...

I begin in Allahs name,

The beauty of Arabic is that one word can convey many different levels of meaning.

The misconception stems from the level of the individuals own understanding; it can only be considered deception if its intentional. Prayer seems like the only fitting word because its a form of worship and because of years of conditioning people are more ready to accept.

I am not a native Arab, and also thought salaat was akin to prayer until I took a more active approach to reading the Qur'an myself for understanding and guidance.
Allah says what means ....Allah will not change a condition of a person until they change what is inside themselves ... 13:11. Islam demands that one uses their reasoning; the responsibility is on every individual to seek their own understanding to gain a personal working relationship with their Creator. The initial stage however is to have the correct intention.

This is as much as knowledge and understanding will penetrate. We have to examine our selves first, what are our motives, what are we driven by, what do we want?
We will only receive what we are willing to.

Knowledge is of two kinds, External (Zahir) & internal (Batin) these two are also attributes of Allah. Everyone will gain knowledge and understanding based on their own capacity to digest it. See the story of Khidr in Surah Al Kahf of the Qur'an.
Knowledge is a Divine gift, this is what seperates humans from other creatures; arriving at understanding through reason. We have to let go of our egos as it is an obstruction to our spiritual growth.
See Tasawwuf (purification of the soul).

Deleting, while your post hurt my feelings I accept that we will not all see eye to eye but I sincerely offered my understanding to help to bring light to the issue.

And while I am a person and you can insult me it is not wise to insult Allah, nor have I insulted what you worship besides Him.

I am a female by the way, and it is not easy to translate languages do not translate word for word. If I said anything to offend you I regret that and apologise. I am content that my intention was a correct and I was not lying.

I did not read all the comments because I expected there to be much hate and wished not to be affected my negativity. I seek refuge in Allah from it and pray that my efforts will be seen by Him.

Kind greetings
Umm Yusuf

Herakleios said...

@Umm Yusuf:

I dont speak arabic, but i did learn hebrew, so i am familiar with the semitic languages and know a Little bit about how the System with roots etc. work.

So you are saying, that sad lam waw means connect and not prayer?

The verbal form is 12 times in the Quran. Lets see how the passages translate (sahih international):

3:39 So the angels called him while he was standing in prayer in the chamber,

4:102 And when you are among them and lead them in prayer, let a group of them stand [in prayer] with you and let them carry their arms. And when they have prostrated, let them be [in position] behind you and have the other group come forward which has not [yet] prayed and let them pray with you, taking precaution and carrying their arms. Those who disbelieve wish that you would neglect your weapons and your baggage so they could come down upon you in one [single] attack. But there is no blame upon you, if you are troubled by rain or are ill, for putting down your arms, but take precaution. Indeed, Allah has prepared for the disbelievers a humiliating punishment.

9:84 And do not pray [the funeral prayer, O Muhammad], over any of them who has died - ever - or stand at his grave. Indeed, they disbelieved in Allah and His Messenger and died while they were defiantly disobedient.

9:103 Take, [O, Muhammad], from their wealth a charity by which you purify them and cause them increase, and invoke [ Allah 's blessings] upon them. Indeed, your invocations are reassurance for them. And Allah is Hearing and Knowing.

the other parts are 33:43, 33:56, 75:31, 87:15, 96:10, 108:2

Sahih International always translates "pray" when a human does it and translates "sends Blessings" when Allah does it. Seems to be strange - same word, different meaning. Realy strange!

For me it sounds like the Translation wants to get around the Problem and just changes prayer to send Blessings, whenever Allah is doing it.

IF the word would not mean pray, but always send Blessings - does this one make any sense?

75:31 And the disbeliever had not believed, nor had he prayed (send Blessings).

Especially if the Quran wants to be clear it is very disturbing, if one word changes its meaning all the time.
And btw. "get in Connection with god" - doesnt that describe in a way what prayer means?
The noun that is derived from the same root almost always (like 99%) translates as Prayer - even in Sahih International!

Abdelrahman M. Alhajj said...

The Quran's contains some words that has multiple meaning. in English there are tons of tons of words that have multiple meaning of different situations and times.
what Pray means here is "greet" we Muslims don't pray for Muhammad, but it mentions "You believers, pray for Muhammad" we don't get to floor and worshipping him, we just greet and salute him. Man, you are unbelievably desperate to stand a point. poor man.

Umm Yusuf said...

I begin in Allahs name,

@ Herakleios I empathise with your fustration and it is absolutely natural to have these questions. It is not by accident because it arouses ones interest. An attribute of Allah is Al Lateef, which roughly translates to The Gentle One; who saves you in the subtlest of ways such that you didn't even know you were in danger.


What I love about Islam is that we can know Allah not by Him reducing Himself, but by us raising ourselves. An omnipotent being is free of need and therefore needs not pray, so the context is quiet clear. The inner conflict to understand is a natural reaction of a reasoning heart. Arabic is the most precise language to convey this message in the most intricate and personal and meaningful way that one is left in awe. To such an extent that the pagan Arabs of Makkah would accept the message of the Qur'an upon hearing just one verse. Such is the miracle of the Qur'an.

Salaat was enjoined upon Muslims during a miraculous night journey (see surah Isra ayat 1) where the Prophet (sallallahu alayhi wa salaam) was transported from Makkah to Jerusalem and then up into the heavens (7 in number see surah Mulk ayat 3) to the presence of the Creator where he was commanded to offer worship 5 times a day by doing ritual that involves, standing, bowing and prostrating and sitting with recitation of the Qur'an.

The Prophet (S.A.W) said the salaat is the ascension of every faithful one (mu'min).
We repeat the conversation between Allah and His messenger called the tashahud in the sitting position. Which in itself is awesome; when do any of us in life get the chance to sit with kings or high ranking officials or even celebrities? We must dress in our best clothes and have explicit permission. Allah only asks that you bring a sound heart and we get an audience 5 times a day! :D The beauty and simplicity is overwhelming. Remove your shoes, be comfortable in Allahs presence and communicate your troubles its the most natural thing. Alhamdulillah (All praises are for Allah)

If you are still in doubt then don't take my word for it. Find out for yourself. Allah says what means;

Sahih International "And when My servants ask you, [O Muhammad], concerning Me - indeed I am near. I respond to the invocation of the supplicant when he calls upon Me. So let them respond to Me [by obedience] and believe in Me that they may be [rightly] guided. " 2:186

May the Creator of the Heavens and the Earth guide and protect His faithful ones!

Greetings
Umm Yusuf

Herakleios said...

@Abdelrahman:

What are you talking about? You dont seem to have any understanding of the word "pray".

When you say: "You believers, pray for Muhammad" ... you dont worship him! Nobody ever said that! BUT you also dont greet HIM!

When you pray for Mohammed you will say (in your mind) something like "Oh God, please take care of his Soul and do good to him ... "
So you pray TO!!! God FOR!!! Mohammed. This Point None of the muslims seems to realise.
So when Allah prays FOR Mohammed, he has to pray TO!!! some higher being!

When Allah prays for Mohammed, what would his words be like? "Oh Allah take care of Mohammeds Soul"?! Is he talking to himself then? That wouldnt make any sense. Praying always involves the "speaking" to some higher being. So when Allah is praying, he is directing his words to a higher authority. Thats the Point! Nobody ever said that Muslims worship Mohammed.

Btw. what is the Problem of Jesus praying, if Allah does the same? It is a typical objection of muslims about christianity!

Deleting said...

'I am a female by the way, and it is not easy to translate languages do not translate word for word. If I said anything to offend you I regret that and apologise. I am content that my intention was a correct and I was not lying.'

Your gender is irrelevant to anything regarding this conversation. I'm a female too.
As far as translating is concerned your gender is still irrelevant. Your methodology is flawed when you open with sweeping statements of arabic's preciseness and intimaticy and them within the same post say you're not a native Arabic speaker!
You came on the board to lecture is on Arabic and yusallona not meaning prayer but blessing for crying out loud!!!

As for this ' I am content that my intention was a correct and I was not lying.'
Give me a break! You don't know if your lying or not because of your intent???? Seriously?!?
That's like a guy saying 'I speak English to my WIFE because I believe she speaks English too.' You know what your intent is. If you're too screwed up morally speaking to know right from wrong, truth from falsehood, maybe you need to quit reading the Koran and stop worshipping Allah.

Last: 'Knowledge is a Divine gift, this is what seperates humans from other creatures; arriving at understanding through reason. We have to let go of our egos as it is an obstruction to our spiritual growth.
See Tasawwuf (purification of the soul).'


I will give you the benefit of the doubt by saying you probably meant to say 'wisdom' is from God alone.
I agree. The epistles talk of asking God for wisdom and he will give it too you.
But your definition is lacking and one again flawed. You derived it from two of Allahs attributes but of those attributes he's also called the greatest of liars.
Besides, this is not the definition of knowledge. It's a noun.
'the psychological result of perception and learning and reasoning.'
Knowledge, by the way, has another component: objectivity. You're lacking that.

Deleting said...

@Umm,

You said, "@ Herakleios I empathise with your fustration and it is absolutely natural to have these questions. It is not by accident because it arouses ones interest. "

He's not asking a question, nor is he 'vending frustrations'. He's making a point you keep missing. Or avoiding rather.

Context of the word in the Koran is always 'prayer'. Not 'send blessings' or 'greetings'. He listed out verses showing you your 'correction' was wrong.

Waxing philosophical about prayer doesn't accomplish anything. Honor God with truth, not platitudes. It's like you muslims don't see the similarities between yourselves and the pharisees in Jesus' time. They were religious too, they liked to pray too, and they did it out in public like you guys do yet Jesus said in Matthew 23:27

"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which outwardly appear beautiful, but inwardly are full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness."


Stay on point...Allah PRAYS.

Ask yourself the question 'if it's true that this word means 'prays' and nothing else, then what does that really mean?'

The christians who looked at this verse and asked objectively came to the same conclusion: this is one more evidence that Allah is not God and Mohammad was never a prophet of God.

Why are you afraid to do that?

Driller Mohamed said...

mister I think if you know arabic language you are not blinded like that you know that allah prayed to muhammed means mentionned him to his angels
and when angels prayed to muhammed means ask forgivens for muhammed

Driller Mohamed said...

but I ask you how can you believe that your God jeasus prayed this is the greatest problem created in your bible

Al-Ghazali said...

Yes, Arabic word for "pray" is "salat or salah", but it doesn't mean that "salat" has only one meaning. Islamic scholar Abu Abdullah al-Hakim Nishapuri (933-1012) found 22 different meanings of the word "salat" in the Holy Quran. Another Islamic scholar Abu Mansur es-Sealibi (d. 1038) found 10 different meanings of salat in Quran. Muhammad ed-Demagani (d. 1085) found 4 meanings of salat.

These all scholars say that "salat" in 33:56, means "forgiveness/blessing". You can't translate 33:56 like "Verily, Allah and His angels PRAY for the prophet." No, you don't even know Arabic or Tafsir, but it seems that you really like to talk about things that you have no idea. Allah confers mercy/blessing/forgiveness upon Prophet Muhammad (pbhu) (though Prohpet is completely sinless) and angels seek mercy/blessing/forgiveness from Allah for Prophet Muhammad (pbhu). And then Allah says "O you who have believed, ask [ Allah to confer] blessing upon him (Prophet Muhammad) and ask [Allah to grant him] peace" (Because of it, we put PBUH(peace be upon him) after Prophet Muhammad's name.) That's what the Verse says.

According to scholars and philologists, salat in 2:157, 33:43 and 33:56 means "forgiveness/blessing". "Indeed, Allah confers blessing upon the Prophet, and His angels [ask Him to do so]. O you who have believed, ask [ Allah to confer] blessing upon him and ask [Allah to grant him] peace" (33:56) It's absolutely great translation, not mistranslation.

I tired of respond to illiterate and ignorant Christians' ridiculous claims. Come on, educate yourself and read something other than Pamela Geller's or Geert Wilders' books. If you do that, you will see that salat has many meanings in Quran, like "pray"(9:103), "daily prayers"(5:55), "religion"(11:87) and "forgiveness/blessing" (33:56).

And also, your explanation for Prophet Jesus's (pbuh) prayer, is quite weak. You say "he (Prophet Jesus) continued that communion with the Father through prayer". But look at John 14:28: "...the Father is greater than I." When we consider the Jesus' prayer in the light of John 14:28, we see that it's just a prayer (like anyone's prayer) than communion.

mysteriousseethebigpicture said...

Allah prays see Arabic above and Muhammad don't know where he's going, yet he's a prophet.
See below
Surah 46:9

Say: "I am no bringer of new-fangled doctrine among the messengers, nor do i know what will be done with me or with you.

You are 100% certain your God is the only one.

Athiests believe in ghosts, poltergeists, aliens, sorcery and evil like the devil.

The principal of sowing and reaping is understood sow good get good so bad get bad. Opposing forces..Science explains this, Christians this, Jews, New Age Pagens..and so on.. If Allah is one God is He responsible for evil on earth too being the only creator. Is that why Jihad justifies killing in Allah. In any other law known it's is unlawful to declare in someone else's name?

To anyone who's is reading this Islam practices lying it is acceptable behaviour and sees any individual as not equal but:

Taqiyya ("al Taqiyya") is the Muslims' license to lie to infidels in order to camouflage Islam's holy war strategy (jihad) to conquer the world. The strategy mentioned
through orders and solicitations in the Quran 3:28 and other Islamic writings and reference applies to all Western countries and against all infidels people (non-muslims) who is not
Islamic and therefore seen as a constant threat to Islam.

Quran 3:28 or Quran 3:28 are two different translations of the Quran verse and says exactly the same in summary:

"Let not the believers (muslims) take the unbelievers for friends, or their companions instead for the believers (muslims): if someone does, then you have no contact with Allah [They
does not represent islam anymore and can be killed ]: unless muslims take precautions, and plays fake (Guard yourselves from them) [Which means that muslims say that they are unbelievers (non-muslim's) best friends when in fact they hate them ].

One of the so-called largest Islamic commentators and historians of all "Ibn Kathir"commented the above sura (chapter) 3 and verse 28 of the Quran and said that "muslims are allowed to show friendship outwardly, but never inwardly)." . Another renowned scholar among muslims, "Al-Bukhari" commented by saying that "We[muslims] smile in the face of some people[non-muslims] although our hearts curse them".

This religion only link to Christianity is the God of Fortress in the Book of Daniel. In that describes a false prophet who will enter the world preaching deception and destruction. This has not christian, Jews, Buddha, Sikh, Hindu or any diety.

Researcher said...

33:56

56. Allah and His angels send blessings on the Prophet:(3761) O ye that believe! Send ye blessings on him, and salute him with all respect.

Commentary :

3761 Allah and His angels honour and bless the Prophet as the greatest of men. We are asked to honour and bless him all the more because he took upon himself to suffer the sorrow and afflictions of this life in order to guide us to Allah's Mercy and the highest inner Life.

Hameem Abdul Al Hakim Habeeb said...

Prayers and peace upon our Master Muhammad to the extent of created things in Allah/Gd's Kingdom as long as Gd/ Allah's Kingdom endures

godliness :god said...

Jesus is not god you misunderstood again he is your love and he was love and he is now

Qui Creva Sp said...

NEVER expect either logic or honesty from a Muslim, not where Islam is concerned!!! No matter how often or in how many ways we reveal the inanities, evils and hypocrisy of Islam, they will NEVER admit that anything could be wrong with their religion. That is what 14 centuries of inbreeding combined with a lifetime of brainwashing will do to you. Muslims have rendered themselves INCAPABLE of viewing Islam objectively and critically. Worse, they are willfully deaf and blind to all the evidence others present that Islam is a fake.

Qui Creva Sp said...

Jesus IS God. the New Testament is perfectly clear on this point. and yes, jesus is LOVE - BECAUSE GOD IS LOVE. Duh!

Anonymous said...

nothing here by muslims made any sense as usual. they seem lost and confused and angry and jealous. a human should tell them get lost. bowing face to ground to statues and vagina shaped statues.. and to the female menstrual cycle is outdated. (moon cycle/female period.. muslims face to ground... bible says to a woman they bow face to ground.. and lick her feet... she doesn't even care or like or need it... now she has to wash her feet and be annoyed on top of it
)why cant they accept rejection...?its ok that most people do not like muslims.. why do they worship the non muslims? they seem to need approval of non muslims much MORE than allah and his moon cycle/menstrual cycle prayer cycle....

Anonymous said...

they bury themselves in front of shushan gate in Jerusalem.. feeling shushan/shiva.hindu/cows.. etc.. will save them...yet cant just be good people... and not annoying...
I wish they change.. seem capable of being good people without religion...some are naturally upright but the religious ones are whores!!! (the men are)
brainwashed is right.. a brain is a terrible thing to ruin with islam...incapable of a normal life...think after death its better? that's pure hate they have for life.. and motherhood... their moms aren't allowed to learn to read!!!!

Riasat Mobashar said...

First of all, I am a CHRIST-FOLLOWER (CHRISTIAN) so that there is no doubt about what I am going to write below. I grew up as a Christian among Millions Muslims and studied MANDATORY Islam (Islamic Studies) to graduate from high school. The capital letter are for emphasis. I am NOT yelling.

Its a WELL KNOWN FACT that MOST MUSLIMS IN THE WORLD ARE UNABLE TO READ AND UNDERSTAND ARABIC. They just adore it! They are very PROUD that Mohammed was an ILLITERATE (UMMI). Therefore, most of their comments and explanation are based on emotions and whatever they heard.

All Muslims claim that the Arabic language is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO SOPHISTICATED AND REFINED that the Non-Muslims, especially those in the West, and have no clue about it and are incapable of appreciating this sophistication. A number of Muslims also believe that the Arabic language is HOLY.

The FACTS just do not add up to support the Muslim claims. There NO ARABIC language until about 400 BC to 300 BC. So, even at Mohammed's time Arabic was STILL A YOUNG AND CRUDE LANGUAGE. This CRUDENESS IS OBVIOUS when one reads the Quran has a lot of other problems in addition to the language.

Muslims also claim that Arabic is a VERY ANCIENT LANGUAGE! They either do not know or intentionally ignore it (TAQIYAH) that the Hebrew and Greek languages used for writing The ORIGINAL Old Testament (Hebrew) and The ORIGINAL New Testament (Greek) BOTH are MUCH OLDER THAN ARABIC and yet they do not present the same PROBLEMS (EXCUSES) as Arabic (and Muslims) do. In fact, MANY non-native Hebrew and Greek speakers have leaned these languages and mastered them.

The translations of the Quran are DECEPTIVE AND WRONG especially for the "IMPORTANT" words, phrases, and parts that are PROBLEMATIC for Muslims. For example, Quran Surah Al-Ikhlas (112) Verses 1 and 4 are translated with THE DECEPTIVE EMPHASIS that Allah is "THE ONE" or "THE ONLY ONE" or "ONLY ONE" is their deity (god) to PROVE THE PRECONCEIVED FAITH IN MONOTHEISM. The Arabic word AHAD used in both these verses is STOLEN from the Hebrew word "ECHAD" which does not mean the ABSOLUTE (NUMERICAL) ONE but instead it means the "UNITED (COMPOUND) ONE". The same word AHAD is used in the Quran Surah Maryam (19) Verse 26: "Al-Bashri AHADAN" which means "ONE OF THE HUMANS" or "ANY OF THE HUMANS". So, the word AHADAN in this phrase means "ONE OF" or "ANY OF" which is similar to the meaning of ECHAD in Hebrew.

Generally, Muslim comments and explanations are based on ignorance mixed with (or based) on TAQIYAH and its difficult to separate the two.

Now briefly about the point where this discussion began. Did Jesus PERFORM "SAJDAH" when He prayed (Matthew 26:39)? NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! NOT AT ALL! Matthew 26:39 says that "... HE (JESUS) ..... FELL ON HIS FACE, AND PRAYED." The Jewish FALLIN ON ONES FACE is NOT THE SAME AS MUSLIM "SAJDAH"! Jews DO NOT FALL ON THEIR FACE DOWN TO THE GROUND AS MUSLIMS DO! Further, the FALLING ON ONES FACE IS NOT A COMMON JEWISH PRACTICE. EVERY JEW DOES NOT FALL ON HIS FACE and NOT EVERY DAY AND NOT EVERY TIME JEWS PRAY. There are SPECIFIC JEWISH RULES FOR FALLING ON ONES FACE that ALL JEWS FOLLOW. About a week ago I posted a brief article on the few Facebook pages/groups where I participate. See John Gill's Exposition of The Bible for Matthew 26:39. Jesus is A JEW BY PRACTICE, A JEW BY BIRTH, and A JEW BY HERITAGE. Jesus' Highly Blessed Mother Mary was A JEW (by all definitions) and Jesus' ADOPTIVE/FOSTER FATHER Joseph was A JEW (by all definitions)! Jesus, Mary, and Joseph KNEW THE JEWISH RULES ABOUT THE "FALLING ON ONES FACE" and THEY PRACTISED THESE RULES. The Jewish FALLING ON ONES FACE IS NOT THE SAME AS THE MUSLIM PERFORMING THE "SAJDAH"! JESUS DID NOT PERFORM THE "SAJDAH"!

Riasat Mobashar, June 05, 2018

Qui Creva Sp said...

Thank you for this very thorough response, Riasat. I personally am SICK of having Muslims claim that this SINGLE verse in the New Testament "proves" that Christ prayed like a Muslim! BAH!!! The Greek for "fell on his face" indicates that Jesus was PRONE ON HIS BELLY at that moment. Tell me, does ANY Muslim assume that position during salat? Also, the Gospel accounts say that Jesus prayed in various positions, including sitting and with His face raised to heaven. These positions are NOT part of salat.

The ENTIRE GOSPEL PROVES that Jesus was no Muslim. The entire Bible CONTRADICTS the teachings of Islam. Muslims need to stop LYINIG about Judaism and Christianity.

Hameem Abdul Al Hakim Habeeb said...

Obviously we are not going to agree on whether the Prophet Isa (Jesus ? there is no J in Hebrew so you may have the wrong guy) peace be upon him made sajdah/ prostration or not. Then wait till the Day ofJudgement. I'll wait with you.

Qui Creva Sp said...

Hameem, you had better rethink that position. As a Christian, I have NOTHING to fear from Judgment Day. Christ in His infinite mercy and love has GUARANTEED my salvation. As a Muslim, however, you ought to be shaking in your boots. NO Muslims knows whether he/she is headed for heaven or hell. EVEN MUHAMMAD DID NOT KNOW HIS OWN FATE. Your Allah is a FICKLE, VINDICTIVE "god'. He ENJOYS sending people to hell - he actually CREATED some human beings just so that he could condemn them for eternity! You Muslims must EARN Allah's favor and love, since he views you as his SLAVES. Yahweh, by contrast, views human beings as His CHILDREN. He loves us UNCONDITIONALLY, and wants ALL of us to be saved.

Unknown said...

Beloved brother, may Allah Subhanah bless you and increase your quest for the knowledge of Truth for asking such an intelligent and thought provoking question in Islam.
The Truth is brother, that some common words or terms, when used for the creation, believers, or worshippers of Allah Subhanah have a different meaning when compared to its connotation when the same term is used for Allah Subhanah. When Allah says it He give , bestow and grant upon in this case prophet Muhammad salawat (blessings, light, rewards, honour). It is a mixture of words. That's why we keep the Quran in Arabic to keep the authenticity. If angels and men say that same wording we are praying asking Allah to put salawat (blessings, light , honour and rewards). Also that's the very reason why Muslims all over the world prayer this very prayer 5 times a day. May Allah Almighty grant us all understanding.

Unknown said...

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.tafsir.ibnkathir
The Command to say Salah upon the Prophet


﴿إِنَّ اللَّهَ وَمَلَـئِكَـتَهُ يُصَلُّونَ عَلَى النَّبِىِّ يأَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ ءَامَنُواْ صَلُّواْ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلِّمُواْ تَسْلِيماً ﴾
(56. Allah sends His Salah on the Prophet, and also His angels (do so). O you who believe! Send your Salah on him, and greet him with Taslim.)
Al-Bukhari said: "Abu Al-`Aliyah said: "Allah's Salah is His praising him before the angels, and the Salah of the angels is their supplication.'' Ibn `Abbas said: "They send blessings.'' Abu `Isa At-Tirmidhi said: "This was narrated from Sufyan Ath-Thawri and other scholars, who said: `The Salah of the Lord is mercy, and the Salah of the angels is their seeking forgiveness. There are Mutawatir Hadiths narrated from the Messenger of Allah commanding us to send blessings on him and how we should say Salah upon him. We will mention as many of them as we can, if Allah wills, and Allah is the One Whose help we seek. In his Tafsir of this Ayah, Al-Bukhari recorded that Ka`b bin `Ujrah said, "It was said, `O Messenger of Allah, with regard to sending Salam upon you, we know about this, but how about Salah' He said:

«قُولُوا: اللَّهُمَّ صَلِّ عَلَى مُحَمَّدٍ وَعَلَى آلِ مُحَمَّدٍ، كَمَا صَلَّيْتَ عَلَى آلِ إِبْرَاهِيمَ ، إِنَّكَ حَمِيدٌ مَجِيدٌ، اللَّهُمَّ بَارِكْ عَلَى مُحَمَّدٍ وَعَلَى آلِ مُحَمَّدٍ، كَمَا بَارَكْتَ عَلَى آلِ إِبْرَاهِيمَ، إِنَّكَ حَمِيدٌ مَجِيد»
(Say: "O Allah, send Your Salah upon Muhammad and upon the family of Muhammad, as You sent Your Salah upon the family of Ibrahim, verily You are the Most Praiseworthy, Most Glorious. O Allah, send Your blessings upon Muhammad and upon the family of Muhammad, as You sent Your blessings upon the family of Ibrahim, verily You are Most Praiseworthy, Most Glorious.'')'' Imam Ahmad recorded that Ibn Abi Layla said that Ka`b bin `Ujrah met him and said, "Shall I not give you a gift The Messenger of Allah came out to us and we said, `O Messenger of Allah! We know how to send Salam upon you, but how can we send Salah' He said:

«قُولُوا: اللَّهُمَّ صَلِّ عَلَى مُحَمَّدٍ وَعَلَى آلِ مُحَمَّدٍ، كَمَا صَلَّيْتَ عَلَى آلِ إِبْرَاهِيمَ ، إِنَّكَ حَمِيدٌ مَجِيدٌ، اللَّهُمَّ بَارِكْ عَلَى مُحَمَّدٍ وَعَلَى آلِ مُحَمَّدٍ، كَمَا بَارَكْتَ عَلَى آلِ إِبْرَاهِيمَ، إِنَّكَ حَمِيدٌ مَجِيد»
(Say: "O Allah, send Your Salah upon Muhammad and upon the family of Muhammad, as You sent Your Salah upon the family of Ibrahim, verily You are the Most Praiseworthy, Most Glorious. O Allah, send Your blessings upon Muhammad and upon the family of Muhammad, as You sent Your blessings upon the family of Ibrahim, verily You are Most Praiseworthy, Most Glorious.'')'' This Hadith has been recorded by the Group in their books with different chains of narration.

Qui Creva Sp said...

YAWN. Babble and copy-paste as much as you please, chum, it makes no difference. The word "salah" means PRAY in Arabic. there is NO getting around this. You CANNOT logically claim that "salah" means "pray" when created beings perform it, but something else when Allah does it. That is called "special pleading", and is a LOGICAL FALLACY. We are NOT buying into that Muslim LIE.

Unknown said...

A moslem scholar said that salaah when used with God means blessing.with man means pray.how to refute this? Pkease expkain.i will more than happy to know it.

Qui Creva Sp said...

Unknown, I believe my previous comment addresses this thoroughly. Muslims have ZERO hard TEXTUAL evidence that the word "salah" EVER meant anything besides "pray" in Classical Arabic. They claim that "salah" means "bless" when Allah does it solely to keep Islam from looking like the silly fabrication it is. Muslims understand that logically a god CANNOT pray, therefore when Allah does salah he "must" be doing something else. They have NO real evidence that this is true.

Even if they could explain "salah" away, there is a boatload of other evidence in the Qur'an that Allah CANNOT be God. For example, you can only swear by something EQUAL TO or GREATER THAN yourself. This is why Yahweh in the Bible ONLY swears by Himself. By contrast, in the Qur'an Allah swears by many CREATED entities, including the pen, the star, the moon, angels, the dawn, the book, etc. Obviously all of these things MUST be equal to or greater than Allah, or he would not swear by them.

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Qui Creva Sp said...

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Mariam said...

Sadly I only read this blog now and have only one thing to say. The Quran is a big book. If u have read the Quran and are trying to make a point of discrediting it based on a verse that u are interpreting incorrectly that is your problem. Allah says that you, the disbelievers must wait for the hellfire u disbelieve in and we too believers shall wait, wait for Qiyamah and the end of times to see who is true and who is right in this matter. It will come to pass and your death is around the corner. Wasting your time trying to prove the Quran to be untrue. I feel terribly sorry for you. Hellfire is awaiting you. And one day, mark my words, you will regret all you have posted negatively about islam.

hugh watt said...

@Miriam, the Koran says the sun sets in a muddy spring of waters! Why do you believe this?

Mariam said...

And i think if u do not want to follow a religion then thats your choice but leave people to believe and follow what they want. I am amazed you want to spend so much time trying to speak badly about a religion or looking so hard to find faults in verses. Find something else to do and leave people to follow and believe what they want to. At the end of they day you came into this world weak, as a baby and before that a drop of sperm. Then you grow arrogantly to come and talk nonsense as if u gave yourself life. The Quran is the only book that gives you answers about life here, your creation and what is to come in the hereafter. If i choose to ignore it that is your problem, if you think its false, that is your problem...but it puzzles me how you spend so much time trying to discredit it. Don't you have something better to spend your time doing? There is no compulsion in religion. Let people and their choice of faith be and pray for Satan to stop playing with you and using you to try and mislead people from the truth.

Mariam said...

I meant if you choose to ignore that is your problem*

quicreva said...

Mariam, you are obviously another brainwashed Muslim zombie. Listen to you, pontificating from the Qur'an as if it were truth set in stone!!! Did you even bother to READ the original article here??? Have you read any of the recent research into the TRUE origins of the Qur'an and the Islam??? THE QUR'AN IS FILLED WITH ERRORS, EVILS AND ABSURDITIES of every sort, not to mention materials PLAGIARIZED from dozens of different sources. We DON'T spend time "trying" to discredit it - it has been completely DEBUNKED by now. The Qur'an is a PATENT FRAUD, a comic book written by an ignoramus, so telling us that it threatens us with hellfire is a ludicrous and pointless act on your part.

Then there is your typical Muslim WHINE about how everyone is picking on Islam. Sweetie, if Islam had not spent the past 14 CENTURIES ATTACKING and DENIGRATING non-Muslims, we would be happy to ignore your silly religion. As it is, wherever Islam goes, bloodshed and human misery follow. Vibrant cultures collapse, human progress ceases, and corruption and oppression rule the day. The rest of the human race is simply tired of all the special pleading for Islam and all the trouble this creed creates. Muslims are far more likely to be the perpetrators of oppression and brutality than the victims, so PLEASE STOP THE WHINING. If the rest of the world hates Islam, it is because Muslims have brought this hatred down upon themselves with their arrogance, violence and intolerance. You demand that we leave Islam alone and let Muslims worship as they please. WE DO THAT. But tell me, do Muslims leave non-Muslims alone and free to practice their religions in Islamic-majority countries???? NO. Islam has the WORST record on human rights and religious freedom on planet Earth. You Muslims need to practice what you preach.


Cupcake, the Qur'an is NOT a "big book", as you assert. It is actually a very small book compared to other scriptures. Even so, it contains far more hate-verses per page than any other scripture. The Qur'an is the ONLY scripture that advocates constant warfare against non-believers, just because they don't believe. Not surprisingly, the non-believers are getting fed up with Islamic imperialism and terrorism, which can be traced DIRECTLY to both the Qur'an and the HEINOUS CRIMES of Muhammad recorded in the sunna.

Mariam said...

Quicreva, you are christian. Surprisingly, from your message I would have thought that you were atheist. Mmmm! Very interesting. What does christianity teach you, love and tolerance? What were Jesus's teachings, love, compassion, humanity. There is no need to appear hateful and sound so aggressive when it comes to islam. Contradictions...there are many in the bible. There are also many verses that are FILLED WITH ERRORS, EVILS AND ABSURDITIES of every sort, not to mention materials PLAGIARIZED from dozens of different sources...what you say about the Quran. This applies more to the bible. Maybe you should read your bible again. I revere Jesus and have admiration for him and for his teachings and the message he came with. May God bless him. But christianity today is not the message that Jesus came with. People are not perfect and true there are many people who claim to be muslim but do bad things and honestly may not be the best of people .There are many communities who do things that are actually more cultural then what islam actually teaches or recommends. Humans are not perfect .They can do bad things .Just as people from all other faiths can do bad things. The world today is filled for sure with many evils and people who don't always do the right things. Muslims are not always angels. But for sure islam teaches goodness and justice and mercy .But you should learn from the lessons of your own bible. God is ever merciful but He has his limits. He punishes severely too. If you read your bible, you should know this. He punished the people of Noah, he drowned Pharaoh, sodom and Gomorrah( ring a bell!!) You believe in a God, who was born of a woman(Mary), who lived as a human, which meant he ate, slept, would have had to excrete, prayed to God( himself), was a carpenter, the died on a cross ( God dying!!),who said he(Jesus) can of himself do nothing, but what God permits him(through His power) to do as in the miracles Jesus did, I am referring to Christians believing Jesus was God and believing he(Jesus) and God are one and then he(Jesus) is His own(God's) son at the same time. Help me do the math here....it does not make sense. Its that simple. I used to be christian. I respect everyone's belief. I also realise that people do evil things in the name of religion and are misguided...the same exists in Christianity and other faiths but i dont speak badly about people from other faiths. I just stated that we will one day come to know the truth either way. Hellfire exists in Christianity. You believe that I am going to Hellfire because I don't believe Jesus died on the cross for my sins .Fine!! My point was we wait and see. I don't say bad things about christians. As I am wise enough to know that not all people who claim to be christian are true Christians and practice their religion. Same with islam. All religion promotes peace, love, mercy. So people who do acts of evil are not true believers of their faiths. Its that simple. Rather, if you are a true Christian, tell me you will pray for me instead of being mean to me .It does not help the situation. Very little humanity and compassion in this world. Very little tolerance. Very sad world we live in. I pray that one day no matter what people believe, there can be mutual respect for people's faiths. May God guide you and I will pray for you . For sure you think I am lost, maybe you should pray for me too.

quicreva said...

Marian, your response to my post illustrates every annoying, deflective tact Muslims use when discussing Islam. Since my time is valuable but you want to play verbal deflection games, I will address the major flaws in your latest comment briefly:

1)Kindly STICK TO THE SUBJECT when commenting. The topic of this thread is ISLAM, nothing else. It is not the Bible, Christianity, Jesus, me or my beliefs. Attacking another religion or your opponent is NOT a valid defense of Islam. Islam must stand or fall on its own merits. When you go on the attack instead of defending your religion, you are essentially ADMITTING that Islam cannot be defended based upon its own merits.
2) AVOID RED HERRING ARGUMENTS. When you answered my assertion that the Qur’an contains serious flaws by asserting that the Bible contains more of the same such flaws, you engaged in two LOGICAL FALLACIES: “tu quoque” and false equivalence. Saying that some other scripture is as flawed as the Qur’an DOES NOT JUSTIFY THE ERRORS, EVILS, ABSURDITIES or PLAGIARISM found in the Qur’an. Instead, it is an ADMISSION that the Qur’an is no worse than the Bible. Is THIS the argument you want to make in support of Islam??? Moreover, comparing the Bible to the Qur’an is FALSE EQUIVALENCE. The two scriptures play very different roles in their respective religions. Muslims claim that the Qur’an was written by GOD and is PERFECT. It is the ultimate authority on Islam. It therefore LOGICALLY CANNOT contain a SINGLE error. Yet it has NUMEROUS flaws! By contrast, Christians and Jews say the Bible was written by HUMANS who were INSPIRED by God. It therefore CAN contain MINOR flaws, so long as these do NOT affect its overarching metanarrative. And any weaknesses you THINK exist in the Bible do NOT affect its major themes at all.
3) Do NOT presume to lecture your opponent on a subject about which you know little. Sweetie, I have been STUDYING the Bible for 50 YEARS and have taught it for 35. I have read ALL of it in English, and large portions of it in the original Hebrew and Greek. Can YOU make the same claims??? HA!!! Stick to what you know, to avoid embarrassing yourself.
4) You assert that “Christianity today is not the message that Jesus came with”. POPPYCOCK!!! WHERE is your SCHOLARLY evidence for this??? GENUINE Biblical scholars ALL agree that the Bible of today is AUTHENTIC. Christianity today TEACHES WHAT IS FOUND IN THE NEW TESTAMENT. Kindly do NOT post mere, FLIMSY Islamic doctrines as if they were established truths.
5) Jesus NEVER taught tolerance, so WHY do you demad that Christians practice this??? Jesus taught love, compassion and TRUTH rather than tolerance. Had you EVER actually READ the Bible, you would KNOW that Jesus had ZERO tolerance for the kind of lies, hypocrisy and empty religiosity that Islam promotes.
6) Muslims do NOT love or admire Jesus! The REAL Jesus is revealed ONLY in the Bible. Muslims honor Isa instead, a FANTASY CHARACTER that Muhammad INVENTED to REPLACE Jesus. The real Jesus is NOTHING like your Isa.
7) You admit that Muslims may not be the best of people. In saying so you CONTRADICT Muhammad, who proclaim that Muslims ARE the best of people. I am continually amazed by how LITTLE Muslims actually know about their own religion.
8) DO NOT LIE when you post. You may have been born into a NOMINALLY “Christian” home, but you were OBVIOUSLY NEVER a real Christian. NO real Christian would EVER say the incredibly STUPID things about Christ and Christianity that you put in this post! Dear Lord, I would need to write an entire theological TREATISE to correct your errors and misconceptions! I have met ten-year-old kids in Sunday school who know more about Christian beliefs than you do!

quicreva said...

Second part:

9) You blithely declare that “all religion promotes peace, love, mercy”. WRONG. Islam does NOT promote these virtues; that is the problem with it. What little peace, love and mercy Islam supports is RESERVED SOLELY for good Muslims. Islam promotes hatred and violence towards “bad” Muslims and ALL kuffar. You need to go READ your Qur’an and sunnah in a language you actually UNDERSTAND.
10) Yes, GOD did punish UNREPENTANT sinner severely in the past. This DIVINE action IN NO WAY justifies the CRIMES that Muslims commit against kuffar and other Muslims.
11 There is No “math” to do here, sweetie. God the Father and God the Son are METAPHORS for the love relationship between the Persons of Yahweh. BOTH ARE YAHWEH, so of course BOTH ARE GOD. When Jesus said He could do nothing without the FATHER (not without God), He was telling a logical truth: the three Persons of Yahweh ALWAYS act together.
12) I NEVER said that you are going to hell. DON’T PUT WORDS IN MY MOUTH. You do NOT know what I believe about heaven or hell. MANY Christians believe in Universal Restoration. In that viewpoint, hell exists but it is NOT eternal. It lasts only as long as the sinner refuses to accept the salvation that comes ONLY through Christ.
13) I am NOT being “mean” to you, dearie. Since when is TELLING THE TRUTH and DENOUNCING nonsense “being mean”??? The best way to avoid criticism is to NOT EARN it. Speak wisely, have your facts in order, don’t whine. Do these things and we will get along famously.
14) I pray for you and EVERY lost Muslim daily, often several times a day. Yahweh loves you; may you someday love Him in return and stop trying to please Him by emulating a CRIMINAL named Muhammad and performing empty rituals for a PAGAN IDOL called Allah.

Hameem Abdul Al Hakim Habeeb said...

Debunked by who?

Hameem Abdul Al Hakim Habeeb said...

The whole basis of this argument is based on a lie. The verse says Allah and His Angels send blessings on the Prophet. Completely different than the web of lies concocted by the argument and this website. I hope you don't for one minute believe you're little small self is going to do what hasn't been done in 1452 years my minds much greater than yours. But you're welcome to keep wasting your time trying.Later

quicreva said...

Hameem, the verse says that Allah PRAYS. It is intellectually dishonest of Muslims to claim that "salah" means "pray" when humans do it, but something else when Allah does it. WHERE is your LINGUISTIC EVIDENCE for this assertion? Exactly NOWHERE. Non-Muslim experts in Classical Arabic say that "salah" ALWAYS means "pray".

Islam has been debunked in sooo many ways. Text and manuscript scholars proved that most stories in the Qur'an were simply PLAGIARIZED from other ancient sources, and are thus not "revelations" at all. Historians have pointed out that the traditional Muslim narrative of how Islam came to be is MYTH; it doesn't match the known facts of history. Scientists know that the "facts" that the Qur'an offers about the physical Universe are WRONG. They reflect 7th century beliefs, not the findings of modern scientific inquiry.

I could go on like this for pages, but I hope you have enough to understand that the EDUCATED portion of humanity cannot possibly accept Islam as being the truth from God. The real God would have to be far smarter than your Allah. If the true God ever wrote a book, it would be BRILLIANT and self-evidently true, not badly written, rambling, obscure, and filled with errors and absurdities like the Qur'an.

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Hameem Abdul Al Hakim Habeeb said...

This blog is dishonest. The linguistic evidence to refute this "argument" has been "surreptitiously" removed as his probably will. Later.

mohammedbasha said...

Thanks for sharing!
the holy book of islam

quicreva said...

LOL. mohammedbasha, you surely mean the UNHOLY book of Islam.