Monday, July 15, 2013

Why Do Muslims Eat More During Ramadan?

About a decade ago, when I was an undergraduate taking an Islam course, my professor (who was a Muslim) told me that Muslims consume far more food during Ramadan than during other months. To outsiders, this is profoundly odd, since one of the goals of fasting is to deliberately deprive oneself of basic physical needs (typically in order to focus on spiritual matters). Gorging oneself before dawn and after sunset hardly seems like a spiritual pursuit.

Consider some data on Ramadan food consumption in Tunisia:

Tunisian consumption in food products skyrockets during the holy month, Ahmed Methlouthi director of the communication unit at the National Consumer Institute (INC) told TAP news agency.

This increase involves:
- Milk, rising to 2 liters of monthly consumption during the month of Ramadan against 0. 9 liters per person throughout the year

- Yoghurt pots went up to 12.9 per person, against 5.4 pots monthly during the rest of the year.

- Eggs are consumed at 26 per person, against 12.8 eggs per month in normal times

- Roll (baguette) 1.4 kg against 0.6 kg per month in normal times

- Oil, 1.2 liter, against 1.14 liters per month in normal times

- Meat: 1.1 kg of mutton, against 0.75 kg outside Ramadan, 0.5 kg of beef per month against 0.22 kg and 1.8 kg of poultry against 1.28 kg per month.
Regarding supply points of Tunisian consumer, 57.8% of Tunisians prefer to buy from hypermarkets and supermarkets, while 42.2% remain faithful to the traditional distribution channels (local grocery), the source said. (Source)

Why do Muslims eat more when they're fasting than when they're not fasting? Why put a mask of piety on gluttony?

The answer, I think, lies at the very heart of Islam. Islam does not make people more holy or spiritual. Rather, it gives them a religious framework for carrying their desires to perverse extremes.

If a non-Muslim man hits a few clubs and somehow manages to have sex with ten women in one day, Islam will condemn him as a fornicator. But if this same man converts to Islam, marries four women, and takes six sex-slaves as his captives after a battle, he can be perfectly righteous before Allah, even if he has sex with ten women in one day.

Likewise, if a man hires a prostitute and sleeps with her, he has sinned, according to Islam. But if the same man sets up a "temporary marriage" (a practice called "Muta"), he can hire the same prostitute, for the same amount of time, have sex with her in the exact same way, and bear no shame whatsoever in the Muslim community.

If a psychopath goes on a killing spree, brutally murdering men, women, and children, he is surely going to hell, according to Islam—unless, of course, he is killing men, women, and children in a terrorist attack for the sake of Allah, in which case his violent massacre will earn him a one-way ticket to Paradise.

Even according to Muslim sources, the tribes of Mecca were violent, lascivious, and gluttonous. Muhammad didn't change their behavior by forcing them to convert to Islam. He simply made their violence, lasciviousness, and gluttony pleasing to Allah. Should we be surprised that Ramadan is a month-long feast that Muslims call "fasting"?

72 comments:

Anthony Rogers said...

Great!

bam bamba said...

What an interesting piece. I think it should be called feasting not fasting.
I once lived in that world. The Lord opened my eyes, I pray that same will happen to muslims who are genuinely seeking the truth.
Thanks once again for a wonderful piece. God bless.

bam bamba said...

What an interesting piece. I think it should be called feasting not fasting.
I once lived in that world. The Lord opened my eyes, I pray that same will happen to muslims who are genuinely seeking the truth.
Thanks once again for a wonderful piece. God bless.

Joe Bradley said...

I suspect that Muslims sneak in a few ham & cheese sandwiches on the side - when no one is looking of course.

Radical Moderate said...

"A month long feast". I love it and I'm stealing it.

bam bamba said...

This is a follow up to my previous comment. I will now add sex orgies and Violence. So in short, Islam = perversion + gluttony + violence

bam bamba said...

Watch a muslim preacher defend pedophilia from the quran and mohammed's lifestyle. Simply shocking!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5t9U9r9Kfs&NR=1&feature=endscreen

Steven Hermansyah said...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbmpwjyVK2Q

in islamic idea, we have to refrain ourselves from sexual perversion, so we can be sexual perverts in heaven.

jake runi said...

I am familiar with an Asian culture where farting well is admired. Go figure.

Royal Son said...

It always amuses me when Muslims say that Jesus fasted like a Muslim, pointing to the temptation in the wilderness.

Supposedly Jesus had a backpack loaded with food so that He could stuff Himself silly at night time.

Royal Son said...

Isa: "And when you fast, fast like the hypocrites do. Disfigure your faces so that people admire your piety and then rejoice, for you shall feast in the evening with gladness and joy. Take heed to gluttony, that your eating and drinking may surpass that of the unbelievers. And Lo, Allah knows what they do, for He is oft forgiving."

G.A.P. said...

Obviously, one is really hungry after abstaining from food for so many hours, and it is easy to eat more than necessary when one is famished. It's not necessarily a part of "carrying desires to perverse extremes", but it's an interesting thought in light of those other things in Islam you mentioned.

Both the Catholic and Orthodox traditions have periods of both feasting and fasting, but I suppose that's different because they don't immediately follow each other by hours.

bob said...

The “religious framework for carrying their desires to perverse extremes” finds some of its structure and ‘justification’ in the Scriptures, in (a) the sins/crimes of some of the prophets and men of God, and (b) the misinterpretation in favour of the framework, of events concerning God’s judgement of the idolatrous pagan tribes which were in conflict with Israel.

That, and many other lies, fables, ancient pagan superstitions and doctrines, the commands of men (Colossians 2:20-23) and devils (1Timothy 4:1-5), and bits and pieces of the Law and Gospel mixed together in confusion (salvation by works), have all gone into making up the Islamic religious framework.

What God and our conscience calls bad, Islam calls good. Isaiah prophesied against those who invert the truth.

“Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who put darkness for light, and light for darkness.

Therefore, as the fire devours the stuble, and the flame consumes the chaff, so their root will be as rottenness, and their blossom will ascend like dust; because they have rejected the law of the Lord of hosts, and despised the word of the Holy One of Israel.” Isaiah 5:20, 24

Seam_on_Us said...

Excellent, David! Just...EXCELLENT!! I had been trying for months to properly describe how Islam panders to the basest lusts of the flesh and this is it. Masquerading sinfulness as sainthood.

Thank you and God bless.

itemabu said...

"Even according to Muslim sources, the tribes of Mecca were violent, lascivious, and gluttonous."

I don't really agree with the statement above. The classic sources like sirah and hadiths do not show such things on the tribes of Mecca, eventhough it claims they were evil etc because they were polytheist and unbelievers. It was Islam that changed the characters of the Arabs. For example, the Arabs used to stop fighting on the sacred months, but Islam changed that in 2:217.

Even this Bombadhon month is called the holy month, there is nothing holy and piety about the month and its fasting ritual. The fasting actualy is a ritual to get reward for the fasting, it is not really to train oneself to become better person. The piety and holiness of a muslim is measured by their devote to their false god, not by the common standard of humanity.

Radical Moderate said...

David do you remember a few years ago when there was a famine in Somalia.

The famine had been on going for a number of months, but it only got attention from Muslims around the world because Muslims could not fast during Ramadan.

So they donated a bunch of food for the month so Muslims could fast.

Can u imagine that, you finally have food to eat but only after you starve yourself from food and water from sun up to sun down.

Aleksandar Stojcov said...

David I love you man :-)
Minimum words with maximum effect...

Radical Moderate said...

Royal Son wrote...

"Isa: "And when you fast, fast like the hypocrites do. Disfigure your faces so that people admire your piety and then rejoice, for you shall feast in the evening with gladness and joy. Take heed to gluttony, that your eating and drinking may surpass that of the unbelievers. And Lo, Allah knows what they do, for He is oft forgiving."

LOL why Royal you just succeeded in the Quran challenge. I would even say you produced a better surah since it tells the truth.

Bill Moser said...

I call it Ramitdown.

Naren said...

Hi,

I was once in my travels unlucky enough to land in Oman on the day Ramadan started. I was dogtired and slept thru the long flight and missed the meals. My client had sent a person to pick me up at the airport and I told him that the first thing I want to do is pick up something to eat. He said that this is not possible since all restaurants are closed during the day. He took me to an "In & Out" store at the petrol pump and I picked up some doughnuts and a can of juice. He said that I cannot eat there since you are not allowed to eat or drink in public. We then got into the car and I proceeded to open the doughnuts when my colleague said that any car passing by sees us eat can report us to the cops and we will then have to spend the entire Ramadan in prison. He showed me a paper cutting which mentioned two nuns arrested for having chewing gum. Can you imagine this nonsense.!!
I was working for Shell oil which is run by "white skin"... I have the habit of drinking lots of water (7-8lts a day) so I have a bottle of water by my side and i take a regular swig from it. Imagine this, I was sitting in my cubicle and while I was drinking water, a Muslim comes up to me and says that if I have to drink water, I should go into the basement (3 floors down) and drink. I asked "Why" and he said that if I drink then it tempts them to drink. I was furious and refused to go to the basement to drink. Since I was a honored guest, they just let me be. Horrible people, if the temptation is so high for them, then why the hell they do it and trouble others who don't believe in their bullshit. My pastor in India fasts for days on end but will personally serve you food and drink if you visit him at his house.

Evening time, I used to pick up my food from the foodcourt in the mall. On Ramadan, you could see the Muslims with their carts filled to the brim with sacks of milk powder, eggs, large legs of cattle, crates of fruits, etc... I was practically nauseating at this gluttony. Reminded me of the pigs which they say "Haraam".

Entire behavior is a true analogy of Colossians 2:20-23
"Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why, as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to its rules: 21 "Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!"? 22 These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings. 23 Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence."
NIV

But, I feel that the Muslims like this outside indulgence and appearance since it doesn't require them to look inside of them for their sinful selfs.

In Christ


Naren

Trader Ed said...

Great

Fast for Muslims is just turning the table, they feast during night and do not eat during day time, other times they eat during day time and do not eat in the night. An excellent innovation by their prophet

songdongnigh said...

There's nothing surprising about Muslims gorging and partying during Ramadan. It's simply a tiny bit of humanity they were born with and still possess, peeking out of the cage of Islamic bondage. We are all born human, but those born Muslim have most of the elements of humanity burned from their souls by their slave master, Islam.

Having said that, Islam is the greatest threat to freedom ever conceived.

Deleting said...

It's a diet change. Instead of eating during the day like normal you do it at night.

Naren-beautiful sentiment.

Joe Bradley said...

Trader Ed, you may have something there.

The "unwashed masses" of Islam are kept so busy with nonsense busy work that they have no time to read the Book Of Hate or understand the true and violent nature of their religion.

Royal Son said...

Quite interesting isn't it? Delayed gluttony is one of the 5 pillars of Islam.

Royal Son said...

The Five Pillars: (1)Shahada: Shirk it up by placing Muhammad on the same level as Allah. (2) Sawm: Delayed Gluttony (3) Pay poor tax from the money you looted in Jihad. (4) Pray to Allah to be shown the straight path because you don't know what it is. (5) Kiss a Pagan stone

rivan said...

David and all others there was not much calling for Sharia law in India for many years. Just got the news, Anjem is at it. There is zero coverage on what actually is the case but apparently the Delhi High Court struck down what seems to be a call for Sharia Law in India. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7yy0oN1s0Xc
Im gonna email the major news orgs and see their response

chan zimau said...

Well, my local McDonald's in London is full of muslims stuffing their faces in the day right now. So much for 'fasting'.

simple_truth said...

"The answer, I think, lies at the very heart of Islam. Islam does not make people more holy or spiritual. Rather, it gives them a religious framework for carrying their desires to perverse extremes."

Exactly, David!
Spot on!!

Instead of seeing this, Muslims are too busy obeying mechanical commands from Allah, Mohammad's alter ego, and discrediting anyone who does not believe their god and religion.

Derrick Abdul-Hakim said...

How much food a Muslim consumes during Ramadan really tells you nothing of any spiritual or moral significance about his/her motives or reasons. How much food a Muslim consumes before sunrise or after sunset equally tells you nothing of any spiritual or moral significance about his/her motives or reasons. (What about a Muslim who eats very little during Ramadan in order to deceive others?) If Ramadan were exclusively about food abstention then I could see your point. But it isn't. The same holds for charity, polygamy, "temporary marriage," or even military jihad. The figures are explanatorily epiphenomenonal with respect to the "Why?" question, whereas the motives or reasons are not. Any serious discussion of faux piety ought to deal with motives/reasons in some sort of adequate way. This post doesn't.

Deleting said...

@derrick you missed the point of the post as usual. I'm not going to tell you what is wrong with your logic because 1. You don't get logic and 2. You wouldn't correct it anyway.

Arrow said...

I live in a Muslim country. If you go to any supermarket over here, you'll see them in hordes, filling their carts to the brim as if it's the end of the world or something.

Joanna Maria said...

Fake religion-fake behavior, LOL...

bam bamba said...

David this is a typical behaviour that you see in the footsteps of mohammed. For the life of me I cannot believe that a nation will jettison its responsibilities to protect its young. This is exactly what has happened here in keeping with Islamic tradition. If you call yourself a muslim and know deep down in your heart that something is wrong with this, then it is time to question the 'prophethood' of mohammed.
http://www.thisdaylive.com/articles/constitution-review-senate-rejects-autonomy-for-lgs-okays-marriage-for-underage-women/153568/#.UeZVkU6-5Ow.twitter

Deleting said...

barenakedislam.com picked up David's blog and published it but it added a bit to it which was funny.

Radical Moderate said...

I remember a few years ago and a Muslim who used to visit this blog I forgot his nick.

Anyway David challanged him on a few things, and the Muslims only response over and over again was.

"David I plan on responding to you but its Ramadan now and I am really tired"

They do love to point to themselves during their feast month.

Joel Cicchiello said...

But how can we approach Muslims in love, so that they truly wish to fast,and truly wish that God would work in their lives?

Pray that we remain humble, that Jesus meets them in their very condition, like He has done to us, and brings peace and works salvation in their lives.



Joel Cicchiello said...

Romans 5:8. But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

Though we were still His enemies... CHRIST DIED FOR US!

So too we must pray for Muslims...

That during this time they allow Christ to sup with them, that He may fill their soul with His Great Peace and His Great Love.

That they may truly feast in the Joy of Salvation and in the Giver of Life.



Seam_on_Us said...

@Derrick

Even though ramadan is not EXCLUSIVELY about fasting it definitely is PRIMARILY about fasting. And what is the point of fasting? Is it not to eat less? How then can Muslims be 'fasting' when they merely switch their eating times from day to dark and gorge themselves silly within a few hours with the same amount of food they'd normally eat in a whole day?

So, yes, this behaviour says a lot about the spiritual and moral significance of their motives and reasons. Their god commands them to fast and they do the opposite.

God bless.

Anifat said...

U re criticizin muslims like know wat will be of u after u leave this world.Leave ur life d best way u can n stop d bad comments abou Islam.We all av limited time to spend here.Lets make d best of it.M proud to be a muslim

Deleting said...

Anifat said, 'U re criticizin muslims like know wat will be of u after u leave this world.Leave ur life d best way u can n stop d bad comments abou Islam.We all av limited time to spend here.Lets make d best of it.M proud to be a muslim.'
1. Islam doesn't teach assurance of salvation for leading a peaceful life. The only assurance of heaven is if you die a martyr. Aside from that you have he'll to pay (Surah 19:72) and perhaps Mohammad will take you out if hellfire IF Allah didn't predestine you to damnation. That's in your Hadith quadsi. Look it up your a big enough boy to do your own homework instead of listening to western dawahists and imams.
2. We are stating observations and facts about Islam. Criticism is not only necessary for dialogue it's also important to weigh claims and ideologies like Islam. Can Islam stand up to scrutiny? Apparently not.
Also just as a side note: we have freedom of speech and we use it. If you don't like it don't come back.
3. Proud Muslim? What a shame because there is nothing more deadly or vile than the tenants of your religion. How about you post your city and state so we know to avoid you.

Jibril Alataby said...

Ramadan is not gorging ones self! As a matter of fact a lot of Muslims eat less during Ramadan, Buying a lot of food does not mean Muslims eat it all, when you go all day from refraining from food and water you tend to want to buy everything you see. Ramadan is also about being religious and doing good deeds as well as learning and listening to Quran, along with a number of things! Yes it is your freedom of speech that you are entitled to but you should also not be so quick to Judge! It doesn't matter what religion you are you should always respect people because we are all human, and it is the right way to be :) Have a good day to all

Deleting said...

Jibril, ' Yes it is your freedom of speech that you are entitled to but you should also not be so quick to Judge! It doesn't matter what religion you are you should always respect people because we are all human, and it is the right way to be '
But if you respected our rights you wouldn't have posted a long diatribe chastising us! Quit for ing your beliefs on me and respect US for a change!
Muslims....you are ALL the same.

Brother Hamza said...

And what about how you've lied about Islam in order to convince people that Islam is bad? "Thou shalt not bear false witness" is one of the Ten Commandments, after all.

Google: Strawman Fallacy.

Brother Hamza said...

Have you considered that Muslims buy more food during Ramadan because they feed more people (than their immediate family)? A Muslim who feeds another who fasted receives the same reward of the one who fasted without diminishing their reward in the least!

David Wood said...

Nice try Hamza. Did you even read the statistics? The article doesn't say, "Some Muslims buy more at the local supermarket during Ramadan." It says, "Tunisian consumption in food products skyrockets during the holy month." We're talking about consumption for the entire country. Are you saying that Tunisia is buying food for neighboring countries? Cite your proof, please. LOL!

You said, "And what about how you've lied about Islam in order to convince people that Islam is bad?"

Hmmm. If you view my accurate citation of evidence and statistics as "lying," then I guess I'm guilty. But most people think of lying as something involving deception, not facts.

Deleting said...

Brother Hamza said ''Google: Strawman Fallacy.'

Why? Apparently not even YOU know what it means.


Stupidity is the gift that keeps on giving.....

Brother Hamza said...

The misinformation in your article mostly lies in how you've chosen to interpret your ONE source.

The spike in consumption could be for any number of reasons. For example, it's common for mosques to host iftar dinners which are open to all; including the poor who often have no food to break their fast. Caring for the poor and giving charity are praiseworthy in Islam, and the reward for doing so is increased during the holy month of Ramadan.

And even if the reason is that SOME Muslims are overeating, you made SOME Tunisian Muslims (one small country) representative of all Muslims, world-wide, and Islamic doctrine.

It's hardly fair (or truthful) to equate the actions of SOME to the practice and religion of ALL. Wouldn't you agree?

As for your claims about terrorism as "one-way ticket to Paradise," please consider the following links:

http://ammanmessage.com/

http://ammanmessage.com/media/911-Islamic-Condemnation.pdf

Taslim Okunola said...

You do lots of mistakes by posting this kind of article. It's not until you kill yourself with hunger before you worship your God. I know that out of 100% christains, just 5% observe the lent fast. and out of that 5%, lesser that 0.1% observe it fully (I mean 40 days and 40 nights without breaking). At least, we heard about a pastor in Nigeria some years back that fasted for 21 days without anything but on breaking the fast died immediately.

Allah(SWT) does not want stress for us. He gave us the religion of peace. A perfect religion. A complete religion. Al-Islam.

Surah Al-Baqara, Verse 185:
The month of Ramadhan is that in which the Quran was revealed, a guidance to men and clear proofs of the guidance and the distinction; therefore whoever of you is present in the month, he shall fast therein, and whoever is sick or upon a journey, then (he shall fast) a (like) number of other days; Allah desires ease for you, and He does not desire for you difficulty, and (He desires) that you should complete the number and that you should exalt the greatness of Allah for His having guided you and that you may give thanks.
(English - Shakir).

Masha Allah.

Naren said...

Post-1
Dear Hamza,

It is clear that David is citing one example of what is experienced worldwide (see my post above of my own personal experience in the Middle East)... David has given atleast some stats, do you have stats to prove otherwise? I am in India which has a HUGE Muslim population, the gluttony is for all to see... its revolting.

Matter of fact, David's post is so strongly a representative of the Muslim community at large that Dubai is offering one gram of gold to people for every one kg of weightloss... Its there in the news. Imagine this "They are actually paying to cajole their obese citizens to loose weight during their fasting"... a hilarious paradoxical situation. This is not a period of FASTING, it is a period of FEASTING.

Taslim> The practice of lent is not advocated as a commandment anywhere in the Bible. What a particular sect of Christians practice is their problem...
The Pastor in Nigeria (assuming what you quoted is true) died after eating since his body must have gone into shock after sudden intake of food... But, one thing is sure, he definitely had not made the people around him miserable and ordered them not to eat of drink around him since it may tempt him. I am sure his neighbors mourned his death and didn't see it as "good riddance" like I felt at the forced fasting for non-believers in Sharia ruled countries.

The entire procedure and demeanor of Christian fasting is very clearly written in:

Matthew 6:16-18 ESV
“And when you fast, do not look gloomy like the hypocrites, for they disfigure their faces that their fasting may be seen by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. But when you fast, anoint your head and wash your face, that your fasting may NOT be seen by others but by your Father who is in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you."

Isaiah 58:3-7
"Why have we fasted, and you see it not? Why have we humbled ourselves, and you take no knowledge of it?’ Behold, in the day of your fast you seek your own pleasure, and oppress all your workers. Behold, you fast only to quarrel and to fight and to hit with a wicked fist. Fasting like yours this day will not make your voice to be heard on high. Is such the fast that I choose, a day for a person to humble himself? Is it to bow down his head like a reed, and to spread sackcloth and ashes under him? Will you call this a fast, and a day acceptable to the Lord? “Is not this the fast that I choose: to loose the bonds of wickedness, to undo the straps of the yoke, to let the oppressed go free, and to break every yoke? Is it not to share your bread with the hungry and bring the homeless poor into your house; when you see the naked, to cover him, and not to hide yourself from your own flesh?"
Bold and capital emphasis in both the verses are mine and very clearly shows what Ramadan is all about... An anti-thesis of the Bible and is precisely what we can expect from the Anti-Christ.

To summarize, there are 7 reasons for fasting:
1. To humble ourselves before God. Isa 58:5, Ezra 8:21
2. To overcome difficult obstacles. 2 Chron 20:1-90, Mark 9:29
3. To aid in Spiritual Correction for ourselves or for others. Isa 58:6
4. To edify with compassion on the needy. Isa 58:7
5. For personal, spiritual renewal. Isa 59:1-2, 58:8,9
6. For personal spiritual guidance. Isa 58:11, Acts 13:1-2
7. For bringing spiritual revival in our churches and our cities. Isa 58:12-13

Continued in Post-2

In Christ


Naren

Naren said...

Post-2... continued from Post-1

Dear Hamza/Taslim,

To summarize, there are 7 reasons for fasting:
1. To humble ourselves before God. Isa 58:5, Ezra 8:21
2. To overcome difficult obstacles. 2 Chron 20:1-90, Mark 9:29
3. To aid in Spiritual Correction for ourselves or for others. Isa 58:6
4. To edify with compassion on the needy. Isa 58:7
5. For personal, spiritual renewal. Isa 59:1-2, 58:8,9
6. For personal spiritual guidance. Isa 58:11, Acts 13:1-2
7. For bringing spiritual revival in our churches and our cities. Isa 58:12-13

To get a further detailed look at the Christian understanding of fasting, I sincerely urge you to visit: http://www.openbible.info/topics/fasting

In Christianity, fasting, much like everything else, it is on the condition of the heart and is a personal matter of communication with the Father in heaven.
Much like the other 4 pillars of Islam, NOTHING, I repeat, NOTHING in the verse you quoted speaks about the condition of the heart... it is just a blind flesh based ritual which does nothing to bring about repentance, awareness of sin or bring you closer to the Father in Heaven...

In the end, I just feel sorry for those Muslims who believe in this practice and makes me work even stronger in my ministry to turn their zeal to the One who truly loves them as His children.

In Christ


Naren

AliveApologetics said...

Naren, I agree with you. Keep up the good work. Alhamdulmasih.

Brother Hamza said...

Naren - Thank you for your post. While informative, it did not address the issues that I raised concerning the author of this article taking the information from ONE obscure internet source and exaggerated his findings to make unfounded comments against Islamic teachings, and Muslims collectively.

Do the people who bomb abortion clinics in the name of God represent ALL Christians?

Surely not!

Why then would some gluttonous Muslims represent Islamic teachings and Muslims as a whole?

Not fair or accurate, is it?

And, when done intentionally, it is bearing false witness (lying).

In response to what you wrote. We share a lot of values and reasons for fasting. Please consider this article on the virtues and principles of the Islamic fast.

http://seekersguidance.org/blog/2009/08/fasting-its-virtues-and-principles-imam-ghazali-from-al-arbain-fi-usul-al-din/

Deleting said...

Naren said, "Much like the other 4 pillars of Islam, NOTHING, I repeat, NOTHING in the verse you quoted speaks about the condition of the heart... it is just a blind flesh based ritual which does nothing to bring about repentance, awareness of sin or bring you closer to the Father in Heaven..."

What EXCELLENT POINTS.

Hamza & Taslim: IF the point of Ramadan is to make you aware of the needy, then why isn't this done year round and why aren't you fasting through the night?

Why are there so many poor and needy in muslim countries since Ramadan would rectify it?

Why only think about them once a year?

Keep in mind in many of these places the cause of poverty, oppression and hunger is Islam, so it's a little like giving someone a beautifully wrapped box of cow dung. When people find out what's in it it not that attractive anymore.

AliveApologetics said...

Hamza, I think you have failed to read Naren's comments in total probably because of its length. Practice of public displayable fasting is a very common thing within the ummah and specially where muslims are in minority in any nation which does not falls under ummah. Moreover you have given a link which isnt helpful in the context. Looks something as if someone is discussing about a recipe for Kobe's steak and you are responding epestimology, "NON SEQUITOR". Consider this link to see how it works like what I am pointing at: http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/world_now/2012/08/egypt-issues-fatwa-against-muslims-breaking-ramadan-fast-in-public.html

I encourage you to pray and ask "Who is Jesus?", " If Jesus is real, speak with me", you will get your answer. Since God reaches to someone who seeks Him.

Deleting said...

'Practice of public displayable fasting is a very common thing within the ummah and specially where muslims are in minority in any nation which does not falls under ummah.'

True words Alive. At my last job the Muslim girl who worked with us announced her profuse 'apology' if she was crabby in two months time because it was supposed to be Ramadan.
Later on after a one on one with the manager, our boss came to tell us 'no eating or drinking on the floor'. It was always a 'rule' poorly enforced but how utterly remarkable it was she decided to announce the same day as this Muslim girl there was no eating on the floor. Team celebrations and the like were also required to be planned around this schedule.
Yet when it was lent, no one made special requests. We just carried on as required.

Naren said...

Post 1 of 2
Dear Brother Hamza,
I sincerely appreciate your effort to have an objective discussion.
My humble response to you as under:
Hamza said “While informative, it did not address the issues that I raised concerning the author of this article taking the information from ONE obscure internet source and exaggerated his findings to make unfounded comments against Islamic teachings, and Muslims collectively.
I believe I did address it, let me repeat/rephrase… David did quote one source to which I for one and others agreed on an experiential basis (as mentioned in detail in my earlier post on this article). I also asked you whether you have any sources to the contrary… I also quoted to you that Dubai is paying its citizens to loose weight during a period of fasting… Doesn’t this point to the gluttony that happens in the name of fasting? Also, a brother quoted http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/world_now/2012/08/egypt-issues-fatwa-against-muslims-breaking-ramadan-fast-in-public.html... this is just one of the numerous oppressions that happens during the period of fasting on non-Muslims.

Hamza said “Do the people who bomb abortion clinics in the name of God represent ALL Christians?
Surely not!

Why then would some gluttonous Muslims represent Islamic teachings and Muslims as a whole?

Not fair or accurate, is it?

Actually, your statement should have been “Do the people who bomb abortion clinics in the name of God represent Christianity?” Truth by its very nature is explicit and is not dependent on what someone believes or not and neither is it dependent on the actions of the ones who profess allegiance to it. I would have said “Yes” if the same was advocated in the Holy Bible… but I have very clearly shown what the Holy Bible teaches about fasting. Unless there is clear teaching to the contrary in the Quran, how can you say my brother as to what is followed by Muslims including the relentless Ramadan Bombathon is not the will of Allah?
Hamza said “And, when done intentionally, it is bearing false witness (lying).
David has clearly stated his stand and so have I stated the stand of the Holy Bible and the Quran… Can I in that case say that you are intentionally bearing false witness (Quran 3:28)

End of post 1 of 2... continued in the next

Naren said...

Post 2 of 2
Hamza said “In response to what you wrote. We share a lot of values and reasons for fasting. Please consider this article on the virtues and principles of the Islamic fast.
http://seekersguidance.org/blog/2009/08/fasting-its-virtues-and-principles-imam-ghazali-from-al-arbain-fi-usul-al-din/

Yes, it is an interesting article and I do see some points of overlap to the Christian beliefs. But, the Quran claims that it is all clear, independent and fully detailed (Q 6:38, 6:114, 10:24, 12:111, 16:89, 41:3). Since Ramadan is a pillar of Islam, if what Ghazali said is indeed true of Islam, shouldn’t Allah have pointed out this guidance in his “Fully explained” book (Q 6:114). Ghazali is a respected theologian, since you accepted his teaching on fasting, there are many of his teachings which are rejected by Modern Muslims such as the doctrine of Quadriya... do you accept all of his other teachings as well or is this a part of cherry picking which is employed by Muslims to whitewash Islam? Since you raised the point of the Sunnah of Muhammad, what do you think about the below?
The Qur'an dictates regulations about having sex during fasting.
The following verse resticts sexual activities to the night only:

Permitted to you, on the night of the fasts, is the approach to your wives. They are your garments and ye are their garments. Allah knoweth what ye used to do secretly among yourselves; but He turned to you and forgave you; so now associate with them, and seek what Allah Hath ordained for you, and eat and drink, until the white thread of dawn appear to you distinct from its black thread; then complete your fast Till the night appears; but do not associate with your wives while ye are in retreat in the mosques. Those are Limits (set by) Allah: Approach not nigh thereto. Thus doth Allah make clear His Signs to men: that they may learn self-restraint.
Qur'an 2:187
Here is what Muhammad did while observing fast:
Muhammad slept with Umm Salama during her period, kissed her while fasting and used to take bath from the same pot after having sex:
Narrated Zainab bint Abi Salama: Um-Salama said, "I got my menses while I was lying with the Prophet under a woollen sheet. So I slipped away, took the clothes for menses and put them on. Allah's Apostle said, 'Have you got your menses?' I replied, 'Yes.' Then he called me and took me with him under the woollen sheet." Um Salama further said, "The Prophet used to kiss me while he was fasting. The Prophet and I used to take the bath of Janaba from a single pot."
Sahih Bukhari 1:6:319
While fasting, Muhammad kissed and embraced his wives:
Narrated 'Aisha: The Prophet used to kiss and embrace (his wives) while he was fasting, and he had more power to control his desires than any of you. Said Jabir, "The person who gets discharge after casting a look (on his wife) should complete his fast."
Sahih Bukhari 3:31:49
Muhammad used to kiss and suck Aisha's tongue while they were fasting:
Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin: The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) used to kiss her and suck her tongue when he was fasting.
Abu Dawud 13:2380

I again urge you my brother too sincerely investigate the truth in the gospel of Jesus Christ

God Bless


Naren

Brother Hamza said...

@Deleting-Ramadan is a time when the doors of Heaven are opened and the devils are chained. It is a time that our Creator gave us to reflect and to establish good habits (that we ARE supposed to do year-around).

The gluttony some of you have witnessed or read about in the statistics is cultural practice, not the teachings of Islam.

The way of the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings upon him) is that we are only supposed to eat a couple of morsels to keep our back straight, and if you can't do that then 1/3 for food, 1/3 for water, and 1/3 for air --the later is a dispensation!

So these Muslims gorging themselves aren't following the prophetic model.

Don't confuse something legally valid according to Islamic jurists to mean something pleasing and accepted by our Creator.

One can meet the legal conditions of a fast (e.g. refrain from food and drink from sunrise to sunset), but if they continue in their wrongdoing and vile talk, Allah has told us that He has no need for them to leave their food.

In a word, if you are backbiting, lying, arguing, fighting, looking at unlawful things, etc. your fast is not accepted; even though you met all the (outward) conditions of the fast.

I was an active Christian for 27+ years and then converted to Islam.

And we can cut-and-paste hadith, Quran/Bible verses all year long. But just as Christians demand that the Bible be read in context, so too must the Quran and hadith. One can't just read ONE hadith and claim to understand what it means (even if it is sahih).

Islam is transmitted by sitting with a righteous scholar who learned from a righteous scholar, all the way back to the Prophet himself (peace and blessings upon him). There is a spiritual lineage that preserves the religion.

The people who read one hadith and act upon their own understanding of it's meaning... those are the ones who blow themselves up. Those are the ones that are harsh and rule-oriented, because they are only outward practice. They are unaware of the inward reality.

Man looks at the outward, but Allah looks at the heart.

For example, I can (outwardly) pray five times a day, but if my intention is so other people see me pray and think I'm righteous... it's not worship.

I would encourage anyone reading this not to learn about Islam from Sheikh Google and Imam Facebook. There's just too much bad information out there.

If you want to learn more about Orthodox Islam look up 'Brother Hamza' on YouTube. I don't post often, but when I do, I only post from teachers who are doctrinally sound, and have embodied their knowledge (which shows they truly understand what they've learned).

I hope I didn't confuse anyone. If I did, it was from my lack of understanding. If there was benefit in what you read it was due to Allah- Mighty and Majestic is He!

This is my last comment. So, I will leave you with this:

May God give us a sound understanding of who He is, so we may worship him with humility and truth; knowing He is worth so much more than we could ever give Him -Great and Glorious is He!

Peace.

Naren said...

Dear Hamza,

I appreciate your response.

You mentioned so many good things and for a few moments I even got the feeling that they were word for word from the Holy Bible. But, I am really disappointed that you didn't give a single reference as to where Allah said all these things in the Quran whereas I had given you reference for each and every statement I made for the Christian faith. Brother, as much as I love you, I did investigate Islam with an open heart and the reason I do not agree to accept blindly from an Islamic teacher is cause they speak the words that you do without ANY REFERENCE... In essence, they teach Islam the way they imagine Islam to be in their hearts or rather want Islam to be. But, then when you hear the Imams in the Middle East where they have no need to be moderate, you hear a totally different flavor of Islam... Why is that??

I am disappointed, I quoted verses upon verses from the Quran and the Sahih Hadiths but you rejected all of them by saying that they were "out of context". I would have appreciated if you would have pointed out ATLEAST ONCE as to what was out of context.

You said "Muslims gorging themselves aren't following the prophetic model"... I sent you Sahih Hadiths of what your prophet used to do at the time of fasting. And all you had to say was that it was "Out of Context".

Anycase, I speak to many Muslims and they make such assertions without any reference to their Quran and then the moment I show verses upon verses, reference upon reference, I ALWAYS get the response "This is out of context" without any clarification as to what was out of context... please for your sake of eternal life, do not behave like an ostrich who buries his head in the sand... open your eyes, investigate, ask questions and the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob will answer you as HE promised in Jeremiah 29:13 "You shall search for ME and you shall find ME when you search for ME with all of your heart"

You seem to be a person with some integrity in you and if you would like to continue this discussion even offline, please do write back to me on Ephesians4.14@gmail.com

God Bless

In Christ


Naren

Deleting said...

@brother Hamza
I'm sorry but that's not overly relevant to my statement. I would dare say I agree that many 'Muslims' are not practicing correctly.
However what you miss is that was the point of the blog post.
As far as being 'Christian' for 27 years, so was I until I found out I wasn't a Christian at all because I never knew what it meant!
Dare I say, you didn't either. A real Christian can never put their hand to the plow and look back.
I'll pray for you.

Deleting said...

@hamza I just realized that you didn't address Naren at all unless you posted a reply to me by accident.

Brother Hamza said...

@Naren - I've lived in the Middle East (and still own a home there) and you can't make a generalized statement that none of them are "moderate." Whatever that means. There is Islam and there are people who are motivated by their own selfish interests (e.g. political power, fear, etc) who claim to do so in the name of Islam. But you can't break Allah's commandments to uphold Allah's commandments.

Things can be "out of context" in many ways.

One way is when we read and interpret the Qur'an and hadith from our own understanding; without having studied the Qur'an and hadith properly. We interpret and experience the world around us differently through our own lenses (e.g. culture, socio-economic status, gender, skin color, life experiences, etc). Additionally, a lot is lost in translation.

For example, The hadith you quoted from Sahih Bukhari (1:6:319), you took "sleeping with a menstruating woman" to mean that they had sex. The Arabic word used was "an-nowm," as in, the opposite of being awake.

It is forbidden in Islam to have intercourse with a woman who is menstruating. The righteous scholars are unanimous on this (and they have their proofs from Qur'an and hadith). What is shown here is that a menstruating woman is not "unclean;" nor that she should be sent away for seven days like you'd find in Leviticus 15:19. The Prophet (peace and blessings upon him) showed us that a man can be affectionate and intimate with his wife; even when she is menstruating. Islam is about moderation; not extremes.

Brother Hamza said...

Another way things can be "out of context" is by using weak of fabricated hadith. This can include a rigorously authenticated hadith (i.e. sahih) that has been altered in translation. You change a word, it's no longer sahih.

Arabic is a beautiful language and words have connotations. For example the Arabic word "kaafir," translated to mean infidel/non-believer. Which is partly true, but there is so much more. The verb "kafara" (from which we get the doer of the verb - i.e. the Kaafir" means to cover [something] up. One could use the word "kaafir" to describe a farmer who plants the seeds by covering them up. IT's used int eh Qur'an to describe those who are ungrateful of all the blessings Allah has given them. In regards to the "infidel," it has a connotation of one who covers up the existence of our Creator. They know He exists, but deny it/cover it up.

Or one could take a hadith "out of context" by just reading/accepting one sahih hadith, without understanding how that one hadith fits into the context of Islam (i.e. in relation to other hadith, the Qur'an, which verses were abrogated, etc).

One needs to keep in mind that the righteous scholars have differed on certain topics. This is a mercy that Allah has given us. Even though they are different, the positions of the 4 Sunni schools (i.e. Hanafi, Hanbali, Maliki, and Shafi'i) are all correct. This is not like church denominations which divide. For example, I follow the Shafi'i school and my wife follows the Hanafi school. There are differences, but she is not wrong for following the difference according to her school; nor vice versa.

These people that blow themselves up to kill the "infidels" (often including other Muslims who don't accept their narrow views of Islam), don't accept the differences of opinion amongst the righteous scholars. They demand--even to the point of murder-- that people submit to their own selfishly-motivated doctrine. These people haven't studied properly, they interpret the sacred texts based on the desires of the ego, they use weak/fabricated hadith to support their political aims, they misinterpret words. Simply, their hearts are sick. And that is why they are causing so much harm in the world.

Brother Hamza said...

I strongly believe our Creator's promise is true in Jeremiah 29:13. About 5 years ago, I put my head on the ground and asked God to guide me to Him. I was willing to give up anything and everything to know who He was. He answered my prayer and guided me to Islam.

The problem I have found is people aren't willing to give up their ideas about God to find Him. Change, especially BIG change, is scary. It's comfortable to stay with what one knows and that which reinforces how they feel (or want to feel) about themselves. But if one is sincere and trusts in God to guide them to what is best for them, in this life and the next, then God will guide them to Him. It may not happen overnight and it definitely requires sacrifice --Mine was about a 4 year journey-- but it will happen.

Brother Hamza said...

Please listen and read the following links. They will give some more clarification on the inner and outer dimensions of fasting:

"O you who have believed, decreed upon you is fasting as it was decreed upon those before you that you may become righteous/learn self-restraint/have fear of God*." [Qur'an 2:183]

*depending on your translation. LOL!

http://seekersguidance.org/blog/2013/07/ramadan-fasting-for-love/

http://seekersguidance.org/islamcast/ramadan-reminders-4-keys-to-accepted-fasts

http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/2:183

http://seekersguidance.org/islamcast/ramadan-reminders-1-the-transformative-fast

If you want to learn more about Islam, I would recommend the following scholars/organizations:
Habib Ali al-Jifri
Habib Umar bin Hafiz
Imam Zaid Shakir
Sheikh Abdal-Hakim Murad / Timothy J Winter
Sheikh Faraz Rabbani
Sheikh Hamza Yusuf
Sheikh Nuh Ha Mim Keller
Qibla for Islamic Sciences
SeekersGuidance - They offer FREE classes on various topics including the basics of Islamic faith.
http://seekersguidance.org/courses/STEP101
http://seekersguidance.org/courses/STEP099
SeekersHub
Zaytuna Institute

I listened to a class by Sheikh Hamza Yusuf, recently. He was talking about the stages of knowledge. As I remember it... First a person must accept the Islamic rulings --e.g. science says drinking wine is healthy in moderation. Why is it forbidden in Islam? Nope. Just accept the ruling. Next, one must understand the ruling --e.g. the evidence in the Qur'an and hadith. Then, they must apply what they know. After that they can judge it --i.e. the position on one righteous scholar is stronger than another.. so I'll follow the stronger opinion. Lastly, one can share what they've learned.

Unfortunately, I have skipped some steps which is why I wanted the last comment to be my last. But you wanted clarification and I felt it would be of benefit to everyone to post one last time.

May al-Hadi /The Guide (one of God's names) guide us to the Straight Path. The path of those who are obedient and pleasing to Him. Not the path of those who have gone astray, or of those who deserve His wrath.

Peace.

Deleting said...

Brother hamza said, 'I strongly believe our Creator's promise is true in Jeremiah 29:13. '

Actually the context of this verse of this particular verse isn't universal. The audience was the Jews living during the Babylonian diaspora. The 'promise' as you call it was to them as was the verse two verses before that.'

I believe God redeems his people hamza, but the proof text you cite doesn't support your case.

Naren said...

Post 1 of 2

Dear Hamza,

Great to hear from you and thank you for putting so much effort in responding... I appreciate your stand for what you perceive is the truth. I know dozens of Muslims including terrorists who prayed the same prayer that you did and received Christ and are ready to lay down their lives for Him… but, how is it that so many of the non-Muslims who accept Islam end up blowing others up? Has it something to do with the words of Christ “By their fruits you shall know them?”

Reading your writeup, there are so many points that I could respond but then many will be repeats of what I had already stated. Let me just paste what I had written earlier “the Quran claims that it is all clear, independent and fully detailed (Q 6:38, 6:114, 10:24, 12:111, 16:89, 41:3). Since Ramadan is a pillar of Islam, if what Ghazali said is indeed true of Islam, shouldn’t Allah have pointed out this guidance in his “Fully explained” book (Q 6:114). Ghazali is a respected theologian, since you accepted his teaching on fasting, there are many of his teachings which are rejected by Modern Muslims such as the doctrine of Quadriya... do you accept all of his other teachings as well or is this a part of cherry picking which is employed by Muslims to whitewash Islam?”

Would like to correct you, I NEVER said that None are moderate in the Middle East, I spoke about Imams in the Middle East who speak Islamic fundemantalism with impunity and force non-believers to toe the line which they wouldn’t dare in countries where they don’t have a majority.

About the Hadiths of the “prophet”, I don’t know how well you know women but when they get their menses, they feel very uncomfortable and with the raging hormones, oozing blood and the pelvis pain, by any standard, no sane woman would be contemplating sex or sexual activities. Tell me brother, all bias apart, with the sexual appetite of the prophet who couldn’t lay his hands off his “sexy nine year old” wife for even 12 hours and would resort to sucking tongue and bathing together in the same pot, is there any guarantee that he would have refrained from breaking the fast? Supposed to be the epitome of mankind, couldn’t he control his lust for even 12 hours for the sake of his Allah and for being a good example of his followers (Q33:21, 68:4). This would be as ridiculous as Jesus fasting for 40 days and 40 nights but then tasting every food in sight and claiming that he was just tasting and not eating. I seriously wonder, between all the skinny bathing, kissing and sucking, when did he ever get time to pray?

End of Post 1 of 2

Naren said...

Post 2 of 2

Muhammad also classified menstruation as “Satanic”: Narrated Grandfather of Adi ibn Thabit
Allah's Messenger (peace be upon him) said: Sneezing, drowsing, yawning in prayer, also menstruation, vomiting and nose-bleeding are from (the acts of) Satan. Transmitted by Tirmidhi. (Tirmidhi Hadith, Number 315

Narrated 'Aisha:
The Prophet and I used to take a bath from a single pot while we were Junub. During the menses, he used to order me to put on an Izar (dress worn below the waist) and used to fondle me. While in Itikaf, he used to bring his head near me and I would wash it while I used to be in my periods (menses). (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 6, Number 298)

Narrated 'Abdur-Rahman bin Al-Aswad:
(on the authority of his father) 'Aisha said: "Whenever Allah's Apostle wanted to fondle anyone of us during her periods (menses), he used to order her to put on an Izar and start fondling her." 'Aisha added, "None of you could control his sexual desires as the Prophet could." (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 6, Number 299; see also Number 300)

Seriously man, fondling a menstruating female… he had numerous wives and war captives at his disposal, couldn’t he leave this menstruating nine year old alone for a few days?... Suddenly, “you shall not approach a woman to uncover her nakedness during her menstrual impurity." Leviticus 18:19 looks so much of a relief for those poor women who have to bear with an over-sexed husband.

Lev 15:19 was written thousands of years before Muhammad at a time when the Israelites were living in a desert with no access to any sanitation habits or facilities. This woman during her menses was supposed to be left alone but NOT ABANDONED. She would need to eat, drink, etc… her family would now have to provide her the same and she wouldn’t have to lift a finger. I don’t know brother if you have a mother, sister, etc… incase you do, please ask them whether they would prefer their husband trying all these sexual experiments on them during their menses or whether they would like to be left alone with all their daily requirements taken care of…

to set definitions: “Context” means to take into consideration the background, culture, beliefs, etc… it doesn’t mean “CON the TEXT”

Thank you for the multiple links for Q 2:183… I went thru a few of them and it was all “Allah wants this” and “Allah says that”… my question to you and to these well meaning teachers is a resounding WHERE… WHERE DOES THE QURAN SAY ALL THESE THOUGHTS?? You discard Hadiths claiming they are “possibly” weak which are maintained as Sahih by some of the finest Islamic scholars over the centuries in an attempt to disown shameful actions of Muhammad but then turn around and accept the teachings of these humans just cause they “sound right to you”.

I have quoted dozens of verses from the Holy Bible clarifying in no uncertain terms the meaning of fasting. For all the verses if you are unable to give me the references from the “Fully self-sufficient” Quran then Quran fails its own test.

In the end brother, I quote you “ The problem I have found is people aren't willing to give up their ideas about God to find Him.”… If you are really searching for God then you need to give up your own and manmade ideas of God and trust in Hebrews 1:1 “God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son,”

End of post 2 of 2

P3T3RK3Y5 said...

As Christians, are we not to notice the beam in our own eye before pointing out the speck in the others?

During our Month of Christmas celebration, in observance of the arrival of Christ in the lowly manger, do we consume more or less stuff?

David Wood said...

Certainly a relevant point. But I'm not sure how buying lots of stuff during a celebration of God's gift to us is the same thing as EATING MORE while FASTING, especially when we realize that Christmas is a man-made holiday (not an essential practice) while fasting during Ramadan is one of the Five Pillars of Islam (absolutely essential to Islam).

islamondemand said...

What is said in this site is absolutely wrong . Many things are quoted out of context . Do read the authentic scholars books not this kind of sites . The exact way to understand onething is to read authentic books . Dont judge any religion by reading these junk..sorry sorry