Monday, July 15, 2013

Debating the Deity of Christ

Since I made reference to Osama in the previous post, I thought the readers might like to hear an impromptu mini-debate I had with him when I found him on PalTalk attacking the deity of Christ. Whoever recorded it missed the first couple of rounds and started recording towards the end of Osama's second or third time at the microphone. The voice moderating it is Radical Moderate. Enjoy!

My nickname on PalTalk is Charles Martel_4. Osama goes under the nickname QuranSearchCom.




Since a significant issue that comes up in the debate concerns the "I AM" sayings of Jesus, here is a recent article I wrote on the subject:

The Old Testament and Jewish Background for the "I AM" Sayings of the Logos - The Lord Jesus Christ. 

15 comments:

BM200032 said...

Muslims have a serious issue when debating the deity of Christ from the historical framework of his own claims and those of his first followers, namely the position of muslims that Jesus was only a prophet is found nowhere even within the most heretical christologies of ancient times, even the ebionites muslims seem to gravitate towards belived Jesus was the son of God who died for the sins of the world, only that he started out human (with no virgin birth, unlike islam) and ascended to the rank of the divine after his resurrection.

Even Bart Ehrman in a recent blog post talked of Christians from the beginning believing in Jesus death as an atoning sacrifice, and all of Pauls letters in which he never fretted to "call out" those he had theological disagreements with never had any debate over the nature of Christs deity, which would be much more serious than circumcision and eating pork... yet we never find any intra-faith debates about this within the Jerusalem Church, which was headed by James and Peter, the Lords brother and Peter one of his close disciples.

Islam is trying to make a square peg fit in a round hole, by not citing any direct evidence, but taking what we do have that supports the standard Christological view, and attempting to "read between the lines" and develop a sort of pseudo-Christology off guesswork and conjecture since no evidence supports the claims muslims want it to support

Zack_Tiang said...

Osama is just so unprofessional....

Osama Abdallah said...

Correction to Anthony: My alias is QuranSearchCom. It's not just QuranSearch.

Also, why did you remove the debate? It's not available.

Osama Abdallah

Anthony Rogers said...

Osama,

I have corrected your alias.

I don't know why you can't access the debate. It works fine for me. It is on someone else's YT page in any case, so I would not have any control over it.

Arrow said...

Dear Osama,

If we assume for a moment that Anthony failed to prove that Jesus claimed to be God, can you prove that Jesus, according to the bible (corrupted or not), claimed to be a mere messenger? You said “every time Jesus opens his mouth, he sounds like a Muslim”. Well, can you imagine Muhammad saying “I and the Father are one”, “anyone who has seen me has seen the Father”, “where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them”, and “unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood, you have no life in you”?

Arrow

Tom said...

@ Osama,
It is shocking that you can look yourself in the mirror and say, "I have done a good job refuting those Christians", I believe that this is what pathological liar are made off,& you are totally void of substance!

The Whole Bible is based on the coming of the Messiah to SAVE the World from eternal damnation!
The Old Testament records the utter futility of man's effort to follow God's Perfect Laws,(which he has to follow Perfectly), to attain that eternal life!
The only one who could save man, Is God Himself, hence Jesus Christ came with the NEW Testament /Covenant, to be that Perfect man, to redeem man, God did not come here to exhibit His Divine Powers, hence His answers as Man!
islam has gone back to the Old Testament and worst still has twisted and perverted God's perfect laws!
You muslims before you start your perverted debate, Understand what is the Doctrine/Theology FIRST!!
muslims are unable to debate purely on Doctrine.. because they have none!!
Why must a mere prophet go through a virgin birth?

Osama Abdallah said...

"....You said “every time Jesus opens his mouth, he sounds like a Muslim”. Well, can you imagine Muhammad saying “I and the Father are one”, “anyone who has seen me has seen the Father”, “where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them”, and “unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood, you have no life in you”?"

Read John 10 and John 17. All believers are one in GOD Almighty, and GOD Almighty is One in them, and Christ and the believers are one, and all are one in GOD Almighty.

No trinity. Trinity is false.

Take care,
Osama Abdallah

Osama Abdallah said...

"The Whole Bible is based on the coming of the Messiah to SAVE the World from eternal damnation!"

Your problem that makes you a polytheist and a blasphemer is that you magnify and exagerate the references about the Messiah, and the powers of the Messiah to make him GOD Almighty. Jesus Christ had to be match to Melchizedek in power and might and miracles and authority. Read Genesis 14:18, Hebrews 5:6-10, Hebrews 6:20, Hebrews 7:1-20.

Is Melchizedek GOD Almighty? Melchizedek had no beginning and no end, and no father and no mother according to the verses that I listed.

Take care,
Osama Abdallah

Christian A. said...

Sooner or later, Osama Abdallah will come to acknowledge Jesus Christ as his Lord and Saviour. He believes what he speaks. He is not like Nadir or Shabir who intentionaly lie and deceive. Let us pray for him...

Foolster41 said...

Osama: Once again you're horribly taking verses out of context (not hypocritical at all!). Nice try. There's no where in these verses that say the person Melchizedek had no beginning or end, or that he had no parents. You're simply making that up. Genesis 14:18 talks about how he brought out bread and that he was a priest (but nowhere says he was eternal). Hebrews 5:6-10, and 6:20 talks about a preisthood in the order of Melchizedek having no begining or end. Hebrews is saying that Jesus will be a priest forever, and compares him to Melchizedek.

You are also making the illogical error of both referring to scripture and telling us it's corrupt. Either something is corrupt or not. Picking it the verses that agrees with the Quoran and saying they aren't corrupt because they agree with the Quoran is called Circular logic and confirmation bias.

Maybe if you'd stop making silly dishonest arguments like this, people might take you seriously.

Actually, I found a verse that is good one for you in Hebrews 5:11: "11 We have much to say about this, but it is hard to make it clear to you because you no longer try to understand."

It's clear from the way you approach the bible you aren't trying to understand what it means, but to manipulate it to mean what you want it to mean to point to the Quoran.

Arrow said...

Dear Osama,

I see what you mean. One can argue for Unitarianism but certainly scripture does not support the Islamic view of Jesus as a mere human prophet on the level of Moses.

“Read John 10 and John 17. All believers are one in GOD Almighty, and GOD Almighty is One in them, and Christ and the believers are one, and all are one in GOD Almighty.”

I quoted four sayings of Jesus. You commented on one. Moreover, Jesus said "all authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me”, in John 10 he said “I give them eternal life” and in John 17 he said “Father... you loved me before the creation of the world”.

Based on these sayings, he's definitely not a messenger.

“Your problem that makes you a polytheist and a blasphemer is that you magnify and exaggerate the references about the Messiah”

Polytheists are those who believe in several gods, each acting independently from the other. Trinitarians believe in one God who manifested Himself in different forms.

Arrow

Joanna Maria said...

Hey Osama, you really resemble your prophets PRIMITIVE thinking - or NO thinking at all. LOL!

re. Trinity ->> After all, the entire Nation was based on the Promise to a father for sacrificing his son, Gen22:12-16! How the heck can you eliminate Abraham, the Father of the Jews because what he did, depicted what the Heavenly Father would DO?

How do you get rid of the quintessential birthing salvation verse playing on Father's name, Isa63:16? Because You are our Father through the father of a multitude meaning, "Abraham", heh -- through his loins the Savior, even if Israel itself didn't acknowledge paternity, "You, Lord, Father! Redeeming us out from the Source of Your Eternal Person!" Heh.
Yikes! Everyone knows that verse is a typical min preposition wordplay on Messiah-to-Come, being Born "out from" the Holy Spirit, v.11 (qereb at ruach), even as His Humanity would be borne out from Israel who the Spirit led out from the 'womb' of the Exodus! Not to mention, the nine verses connected with v.16, using the same Fathering concept! Not to mention, all of Isa53-55, which use that same Fathering concept to describe our salvation! Boy zhamoy. Feh Feh Feh. Can we just hide the Writings and hope no one will notice?

Osama, you have NO idea what you talking about, L O L !!!

Tom said...

@ Osama

Since you have made this allegation that Christianity is polytheists, what is nature of polytheists gods, do they speak as Our Lord Jesus Christ, "I & The Father are One".." “anyone who has seen me has seen the Father”..etc
I assume you have a research paper on the nature of polytheists gods, and you saw similarities between the Christian "polytheists gods" and other polytheists?Hence your declaration that we are polytheists!
Just a thought, a triangular Prism! One substance,3 sides! I Never limit what My God, The God of Abraham, is capable off!

Hope there will be less verbal diarrhoea coming from you on this matter?

Oh, what is your take on, Who & What is this Melchizedek that was talked about in the Bible?Is there a High Priest in the koran?

ajiboye emmanuel said...

Osama very good of u poor boy , @ list u have ur answer

Peter Salang said...

http://borneoinsider.com/2013/07/15/time-the-christian-politicians-protected-their-flock/