In my incorrigible optimism I was only too sure that Paul Williams would like my reply to his post. Imagine my surprise when I read Paul's most recent comments only to find out that he thought my response was: 1) long-winded, and thus evidence that I was having a bad hair day; and 2) a textbook case of reasoning in a tu quoque fashion, which strongly suggested to Paul that I need to read up on elementary logic.
As is often the case, at least when it is at all possible, on the occasion that I find myself embroiled in an argument of this sort, I like to concede something to my opponent. Accordingly, I happily grant that the length of my response unnecessarily exceeded Paul’s reading quota for the month, and that it left my hair disheveled in the process. I certainly could have been pithier.
I think it is only fair to grant as much as the above, especially since I feel compelled to point out that from the time Paul left Christ for Muhammad his grasp of logic has been receding quicker than his hairline. I guess that means both of us are having hair problems, though for very different and unequal reasons.
Although Paul spoke about logic with all the conviction of a disciple of Aristotle, one born out of due time no less, the vast majority of scholars would tell us that confusing or conflating the tu quoque fallacy with a reductio is a corruption of the original teaching of Aristotle. While Aristotle certainly recognized the rhetorical value of arguing in a tu quoque fashion, we can be sure that he brought the same message as all philosophers who came before him, and that he therefore made a distinction between reasoning tu quoque, which is strictly speaking logically fallacious, and running a reductio ad absurdum on an opponents position, which is eminently logical.
Since the argument I offered in reply to Paul cannot be reduced to the following form:
“Yes, I conjure up images of a man in my mind and engage in idolatrous worship just like Paul admits he did when he was a professing Christian, but that is okay because the Islamic sources teach Paul to do the same thing.” (Tu Quoque)
But rather was of this sort:
“I absolutely reject Paul’s inexcusable ignorance of basic Christology as obviously having nothing to do with the orthodox faith, and since Paul admits that having a mental picture of the object of one’s worship is idolatrous, then the very fact that this is precisely what the Islamic sources teach him to do, i.e. have a mental picture of Allah so that on judgment day he can pick his lackluster deity out of the crowd, shows that his newfound faith in the new-fangled religion of Islam reduces to absurdity, and that on Paul's own premises.” (Reductio ad Absurdum)
Since I took it that Paul’s ignorance of basic Christology is inexcusable given his former profession of faith, I concluded that there was no onus on me to give him the whirlwind tour of historical theology where these things have been all too clearly hammered out. However, because Paul is still prattling on and clamoring for an answer, it is as follows:
“The Lord Jesus Christ, God the Word, is one person, a divine person. Since the time of His incarnation the Lord Jesus Christ possesses two natures but is still only one person, a divine person. When Christians worship the Lord Jesus Christ, i.e. the incarnate Word, their worship is directed to the one divine person of Christ in whom both natures are hypostatically joined, not to one or another nature considered in the abstract.”
I trust my answer was pithy enough not to overextend Paul’s attention span.
(As you can see, Paul - my hair problem only requires a comb to fix; yours requires a transplant.)
I agree with you David, you are right.
Edit: that should have been reductio throughout.
Pithier! Gotta love that Word!
Paul's main complaint is you haven't addressed the initial objection he raised, and therefore this question must have really "stumped" the Christians this time!
I guess using Paul's reasoning (if it were true) he and his fellow Muslims must be "stumped" because he hasn't addressed the Islamic version of the same dilemma.
One Muslim tried addressing David Wood's comments by asserting Abraham initially installed the pagan practices. But that would merely mean Abraham was a pagan himself perpetuating pagan customs.
But the biggest and most obvious problem for this dilemma is it's historical accuracy. Not only are there questions about whether biblical Abraham even existed. But even if he did, we have a clear cut anachronism imposed by the Muslim sources that Abraham was near the Kaaba, when there was no Mecca.
Try again Muslims. Try purifying your pagan cult from it's paganism one more time!
@Derek you wrote...
"I guess using Paul's reasoning (if it were true) he and his fellow Muslims must be "stumped" because he hasn't addressed the Islamic version of the same dilemma. "
I would add that since what Paul brought up is not what Christians believe, that Paul created a false dilemma for Christians.
When Anthony brought up that Muslims have a real dilemma it really must of stumped the Muslims since they have yet to answer for it.
I just wrote a new response called "The science of interpretation", since Paul Williams won't let my further comments go through.
Just a reminder you have to continue your story with me of your interaction with Osama Abd Foola
Ken, thanks for the link. I enjoyed reading it.
What a little snake in the grass.
I noticed this today and got confirmation that Ken was experiencing the same thing.
At first I thought it was a problem with Chrome and Wordpress.
Paul Williams is claiming that Christians are stumped by his false dilemma. I thought this was strange since I answered him right away on his first post.
That we worship the divine person, I did not phrase it as well as Anthony or Ken but it was in agreement.
That comment was either not let through the Paulinator filter, or it was deleted. He has also deleted other comments of mine where I repeated the same thing. He even deleted a comment that a Muslim responds too.
All this and he claims we are stumped by his false dilemma.
What a snake in the grass, I thank the true living God he was driven out from us because he was not one of us.
(As you can see, Paul - my hair problem only requires a comb to fix; yours requires a transplant.) LOL!!!
Muslims, like their Liberal/Progressive useful idiots, have no real or reasonable arguments, so they have to resort to personal attacks, name-calling, lies, and Shrieking, "Nah-ah! Nah-ah!" Like St. Paul in the true Bible (not Mohammad's compilation from what he had heard of it, being illiterate), your debates often have to end with you shaking the dirt off your sandals because:
"And this is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and people loved darkness rather than light because their deeds were evil. For all who do evil hate the light and do not come to the light, so that their deeds may not be exposed. But those who do what is true come to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that their deeds have been done in God." [Jn. 3:14-21]
There is also this:Shabir Ally,in his debate with Tony Costa says:
1.That he accepts Jesus was really crucified but survived.The only way Jesus could not have survived was if the spear thrust (in John's gospel) really happened.
2.But that it didn't happen at all because of the 3 hour darkness and earthquake mentioned in the synoptics.It terrified everybody.
3.Then NOBODY,not even Jesus' Jewish enemies who sent him to the cross,would have DARED to SPEAR HIM TO DEATH.
Shabir actually even says Jesus' enemies recognized they were wrong,which is based on Luke 23:48-49(just after Jesus' death),in my opinion:
"and all the multitudes who were come together to this sight, beholding the things that came to pass, smiting their breasts did turn back(Note:including Jesus' enemies?);
49 and all his acquaintances stood afar off, and women who did follow him from Galilee, beholding these things."
Really,Shabir's idea is DENIED by the Koran,there Jesus' enemies actually BRAG about having KILLED HIM,no repentance there.
"And for their saying(Note:by Jesus' enemies):
"We have killed the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, the messenger of Allah"
and they killed him not, nor did they crucified, but he was made to appear to them as such. And certainly those who differ therein are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge about it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for certain"
It is obvious the Koran says there was no repentance on the part of Jesus' enemies,not even in Luke 23:48.
In fact since Shabir(for convenience) accepts Jesus apparently died(but really fainted) very soon(after only 6 hrs) then it is logical to say that when the Koran says his enemies said:
" "We have killed the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, the messenger of Allah"
Then they would have had no hesitation to say to the Romans soldiers:
"Thrust a SPEAR in his LUNGS to MAKE SURE he is DEAD."
IN FACT MATT 27:62-64 IS IN ACCORD WITH THE KORAN ABOUT THE FEELINGS OF THE JEWISH ENEMIES
There we see NO REPENTANCE by his enemies,in fact they are SURE he is dead:
"And on the morrow that is after the preparation, were gathered together the chief priests, and the Pharisees, unto Pilate,
63 saying, `Sir, we have remembered that that deceiver said while yet living, After three days I do rise;
64 command, then, the sepulchre to be made secure till the third day, lest his disciples, having come by night, may steal him away, and may say to the people, He rose from the dead, and the last deceit shall be worse than the first(Note:the first deceit is the false prophet Jesus).'"
So since in the Koran Jesus' enemies boast of having KILLED JESUS then of course (in spite of a 3 hr darkness and earthquake,and a torn veil in the temple) they would have SPEARED HIM to MAKE SURE he was DEAD. I see Shabir has no argument against this.
It is details like this that show he is wrong in his methodology.
I read Paul't post. Isn't it just a clever way of attacking Christians? If we listen to Paul and follow his advice, then what? Will we be better off?
Isn't the ban on idolatry there so we can avoid going astray? Should we then use it to avoid worshiping the true God? Paul is so busy being clever that he got stupid.
Off topic, but David, if you are reading this, someone with more time and knowledge than me needs to reply to this.
Soup, I took a look at your video and I am sorry to say about this is another typical lying Muhammad who distorts sources without shame.
First, he says that Mary got married to Joseph who was ninety years old and she and Mary was 12. He references Dale C. Allison's commentary, Matthew: A Shorter Commentary, p. 12. Suffice it to say, Allison says no such thing about Joseph being 90, and this is nothing more than a boldfaced lie. Here is the quote:
"... To judge from the rabbinic sources, betrothal or engagement in ancient Judaism took place at a very early age, usually at twleve to twelve-and-a-half years. Following courtship and the completion of the marriage contract, the marriage was considered established: the woman had passed from her father's authority to that of her husband. But about a year typically passed before the woman moved from her parents' house to her husband's house. During that time, although the marriage was not yet consummated, the woman was 'wife' and she could become a widow or be punished for adultery. during that time, although the marriage was not yet consummated, the woman was 'wife' and she could become a widow or be punished for adultery. So betrothal was the legal equivalent of marriage, its cancellation divorce. This explains the situation of Joseph (cf. Lk 1.27). Even though he has not yer taken Mary, she is his wife (1.20, 24); and separation requires a certificate of divorce (1.19)." http://books.google.com/books?id=m_OShrBh0I0C&printsec=frontcover&dq=matthew+a+shorter+commentary+dale+c.+allison&hl=en&sa=X&ei=EyKyUZ_9PMaUrgGjm4DYBQ&ved=0CDAQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false
More to come.
Another feeble attempt of mine, at trying to reach Muslims and help them understand what we are saying, on these issues:
Sorry for my typos. "about"= but, "Muhammad"=Muhammadan.
It comes from the Institutes. I was citing it from memory since I didn't want to look it up, but I just did and you can find it in I.xiii.ii.
As for the other question, I will send you an e-mail on it. Just give me some time since I am going to be very busy until after next week.
The more I think about it the more Shabir's claim a spear thrust was never inflicted on Jesus seems to be illogical.I will explain.
In chapter 4:157 Jesus' enemies sarcastically say:
"We have killed the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, the messenger of Allah"
HISTORICAL DETAILS WE KNOW
Books on the subject say that 100,000 Jews were crucified by the Romans in the 1st century in Palestine.
Shabir always says that it took several days for the crucified to die.One evidence he points to is that Mark says Pilate was surprised Jesus had died so soon(in 6 hrs)
Now 100,000 Jews is alot of people,crucifixions were very common,so surely Jesus' enemies,the same ones who were so sure they had "killed the Messiah" knew it took several days.
Based on that it is illogical to think that the following happened:
Jesus was apparently dead after 6 hrs,Jesus' enemies,who knew it took several days,then just accepted it as true.
They were there and none of them said:"Let us be 100% sure he is really dead,he could have fainted,thrust a spear to kill him for sure."
Of course they would have.So Shabir's claim is not convincing,based on what the Koran says.
Sam, I know it's filled with many lies. Even I caught them. I thought someone with a lot more knowledge might want to address some of them. I noticed someone from Acts17 was commenting on a really lame video that was a reply to Crowders. Since this one was produced better and had quite a few views I thought someone might want to help out with the truth a little.
The next series of posts were comments I made in Ken's blog since Williams has chosen the cowardly way out of not posting here, but over there, since he thinks he is safe. I thought these would prove beneficial to people here.
As you can see Rad, Williams is more interested in attacking straw man since in his warped mind he actually thinks no one is capable of answering, despite the fact he has been answered over and over again.
We worshiped the one Person of Jesus Christ who is both 100% God and 100% man and the reason is simple. Jesus is an eternal divine Person who took on flesh. Therefore, what makes him worthy of worship and devotion is the fact that he is truly God, an eternal divine Person who has now become embodied for us and our redemption.
This is no more idolatrous than when the OT prophets and saints worshiped God in his various manifestations and appearances, some of which included assuming human form so that others may see him. For a detailed discussion see my response to William's distortion of Scripture: http://answering-islam.org/authors/shamoun/rebuttals/williams/good_logic2.html
And this is no more idolatrous than the Israelites bowing down to the Temple in Jerusalem because they knew that God's presence and name dwelt there in a unique manner: http://answering-islam.org/authors/shamoun/kabah_idol2.html
What makes this interesting is that the verb which John uses to denote the fact that the eternal Logos/Word came to dwell among us as flesh, i.e. "the Word became flesh and DWELT among us," is eskenosen and literally means "pitched his tent/tabernacled." John is therefore describing Jesus' physical body as theTabernacle/Temple of God, thereby connecting it with the OT Tabernacle/Temple of Jerusalem where God lived. In fact, Jesus himself called his physical body a Temple since he told the Jews that if they destroyed his Temple he would raise it up in three days (cf. John 2:19-22). This again confirms what I just said that worshiping Jesus who has become enfleshed, embodied, is no more idolatrous than the Israelites worshiping God by looking and bowing towards the Tabernacle/Temple. BTW, you will finda more detailed explanation of this in the second link which I provided
Again Rad, William's silly and false dilemma has been refuted over and over again, but due to his Muhammadanism and hatred of the Lord Jesus, his God and Muhammad's Judge, he will not and cannot accept the truth. So don't waste your breath trying to convince this stone worshiper.
Now Rad, watch how in the next posts I turn this argument against Williams proving that both he and his prophet are/were nothing more than pagans who stand condemned by the true God.
Here is the first part of my second post.
Rad, could be so kind as to get Williams to explain why do Muslims bow down towards the Kabah and why do they kiss and smother a black stone as part of the rites of pilgrimage? Doesn’t this prove that Muslims such as Williams are pagans for worshiping inanimate objects that do not not contain the presence of God, unlike the Temple in Jerusalem and the physical body of the Lord Jesus? In fact, I will repost my entire article on this subject, with the hopes that Williams will overcome his shame and cowardice and actually defend these pagan and idolatrous practices:
According to the traditional Islamic view the following verses are exhorting Muslims to face the Kabah in Mecca and bow to it when they perform their five daily prayers:
We have seen thee turning thy face about in the heaven; now We will surely turn thee to a direction that shall satisfy thee. Turn thy face towards the Holy Mosque; and wherever you are, turn your faces towards it. Those who have been given the Book know it is the truth from their Lord; God is not heedless of the things they do. Yet if thou shouldst bring to those that have been given the Book every sign, they will not follow thy direction; thou art not a follower of their direction, neither are they followers of one another’s direction. If thou followest their caprices, after the knowledge that has come to thee, then thou wilt surely be among the evildoers whom We have given the Book, and they recognize as they recognize their sons, even though there is a party of them conceal the truth and that wittingly. S. 2:144-146
From whatsoever place thou issuest, turn thy face towards the Holy Mosque; and wherever you may be, turn your faces towards it, that the people may not have any argument against you, excepting the evildoers of them; and fear you them not, but fear you Me; and that I may perfect My blessing upon you, and that haply so you may be guided; S. 2:150
And when We settled for Abraham the place of the House: ‘Thou shall not associate with Me anything. And do thou purify My House for those that shall go about it and those that stand, for those that bow and prostrate themselves; S. 22:26
According to the Quran prostration is an act of worship since it is directly connected to the service or worship that must be rendered to Allah:
Surely those who are with thy Lord wax not too proud to serve Him (‘ibadatihi); they chant His praise, and to Him they bow (yasjudoona). S. 7:206
And of His signs are the night and the day, the sun and the moon. Bow not yourselves (la tasjudoo) to the sun and moon, but bow yourselves (wa-osjudoo) to God who created them, if Him you serve (ta-abudoona). S. 41:37
Rather prostrate yourselves (fa-osjudoo) before Allah and serve (wa-oabudoo). S. 53:62 Pickthall
Why, then, are Muslims bowing to a pagan shrine which at one time housed 360 idols?
CCX: Say: ‘Truth has come and falsehood has vanished. Falsehood is always bound to vanish.’” (17:81)
“Vanish” means to be destroyed.
4443. It is related that ‘Abdullah ibn Mas’ud said, “The Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, entered Makka and there were three hundred and sixty idols around the Ka’ba. He began to poke them with a stick in his hand, saying, ‘Truth has come and falsehood has vanished’ (17:81) and ‘The Truth has come. Falsehood cannot originate or regenerate.’(34:49)” (Aisha Bewley, The Sahih Collection of Al-Bukhari, Chapter 68. Book of Tafsir: *; *)
See also Dr. Muhammad Muhsin Khan’s version of Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 6, Book 60, Number 244.
Here is the second part of my second post.
And let us not forget that there were other pagan Kabahs at the time of Muhammad which the idolators built for their gods and goddesses:
CLI: Burning houses and palm-trees
2857. It is related that Qays ibn Abi Hazim said, “Jarir said to me, ‘The Messenger of Allah said to me, “Will you not relieve me of Dhu’l-Khalasa?”‘ which was a house of Khath’am which was called the Yamani Ka’ba. ‘I set out with one hundred and fifty horsemen from Ahmas. They are good horsemen. I could not sit firm on a horse and he (the Prophet) struck me in my chest so that I saw the marks of his fingers on my chest. He said, “O Allah, make him firm and make him a guided guide.”‘ He went to it, broke it up and burnt it. Then he sent the news to the Messenger of Allah. Jarir’s messenger said, ‘By the One who sent you with the truth, I did not come to you until I left it as if it was an emaciated – or scabby – camel.’ He said, ‘May Allah bless the horses and riders of Ahmas’ five times.”
CLXXXVIII: Good news of victories
2911. It is related that Qays said, “Jarir ibn ‘Abdullah said to me, ‘The Messenger of Allah said to me, “Will you not relieve me from Dhu’l-Khalasa?”‘ which was a house where Khath’am stayed which was called the Yamani Ka’ba I set out with one hundred and fifty horsemen from Ahmas. They are good horsemen. I told the Prophet that I could not sit firm on a horse and he (the Prophet) struck me in my chest so that I saw the marks of his fingers on my chest and said, “O Allah, make him firm and make him a guided guide.”‘ He went to it, smashed it and burnt it down. Then he sent the good news to the Messenger of Allah. Jarir’s messenger said, ‘By the One who sent you with the truth, I did not come to you until I left it as if it was a scabby camel.’ He said, ‘May Allah bless the horses and riders of Ahmas’ five times.” (Bewley, Sahih Al-Bukhari, Chapter 61. Book of Jihad and Military Expeditions: *; *http://www.sunnipath.com/library/Hadith/H0002P0061.aspx; underline emphasis ours)
Therefore, to bow towards any of these pagan shrines was to bow down in worship to the gods and goddesses which these places were built for.
The Kabah as the dwelling place of Allah
Do Muslims bow down to the Kabah because Allah actually dwells there? Is the Kabah the earthly place where Allah has chosen to live, being the house that he made for his glory and name to reside in forever?
If so then how do Muslims explain the fact that the Quran says that Allah, like the angels, dwells in heaven above?
Do you feel secure that He who is IN heaven (man FEE al-sama-i) will not cause the earth to swallow you, the while it rocks? Do you feel secure that He who is IN heaven (man FEE al-sama-i) will not loose against you a squall of pebbles, then you shall know how My warning is? S. 67:16-17
Contrast this with what is said regarding those who are in the heavens:
How many an angel there is IN the heavens (malakin FEE al-samawati) whose intercession avails not anything, save after that God gives leave to whomsoever He wills and is well-pleased. S. 53:26
Whatever is IN the heavens (FEE al-samawati) and the earth glorifies Allah; and HE is the Mighty, the Wise. S. 57:1
Here is the third part of my second post.
The hadiths record that there are seven heavens inhabited by prophets and angels, and that there is a house located in the highest heaven:
… Then he ascended with me to the sixth heaven and asked for it to be opened. It was asked, ‘Who is this?’ He answered, ‘Jibril.’ It was asked, ‘Who is with you?’ He replied, ‘Muhammad.’ It was asked, ‘Has he been sent for?’ He said, ‘Yes.’ It was said, ‘Welcome to him! What an excellent visitor has come!’ It opened and when I arrived, Musa was there. He said, ‘This is Musa, so greet him.’ I greeted him and he returned the greeting and then said, ‘Welcome to a righteous brother and a righteous Prophet!’ When I passed on, he wept. He was asked, ‘Why are you weeping?’ He replied, ‘I am weeping because more of the community of this lad who was sent after me will enter the Garden than those of my community!’
Then he ascended with me to the seventh heaven and Jibril asked for it to be opened. It was asked, ‘Who is this?’ He answered, ‘Jibril.’ It was asked, ‘Who is with you?’ He answered, ‘Muhammad.’ It was said, ‘Has he been sent for?’ He answered, ‘Yes.’ It was said, ‘Welcome to him! What an excellent visitor has come!’ It opened and when I arrived, Ibrahim was there. He said, “This is your father, so greet him.’ I greeted him and he returned the greeting and said, ‘Welcome to a righteous son and a righteous Prophet!’
Then I was shown the Lote-tree of the Limit. Its fruits were like the pots of Hajar, and its leaves were like elephant ears. He said, ‘This is the Lote-tree of the Limit.’ There were four rivers: two hidden rivers and two apparent rivers. I asked, ‘What are these two, Jibril?’ and he said, ‘The two hidden ones are in the Garden, and the two apparent ones are the Nile and Euphrates.’ Then the Inhabited House was shown to me. Every day seventy thousand angels enter it. Then I was brought a vessel of wine, a vessel of milk and a vessel of honey. I took the milk and he said, ‘It is the natural form (fitra) which you and your community have.’
Then fifty prayers every day were made obligatory for me. I returned and passed by Musa who asked, ‘What are you commanded?’ I replied, ‘I am commanded fifty prayers a day.’ He said, ‘Your community will not be able to do fifty prayers a day. I tested people before you. I tried as hard as I could with the tribe of Israel. So back to your Lord and ask Him to reduce it for your community.’ I went back and He lessened it by ten for me. Then I returned to Musa and he said the same thing. I went back and He lessened it by ten for me. Then I returned to Musa and he said the same thing. I went back and He lessened it by ten for me. Then I went to Musa and he said the like of it. Then I went back and was commanded ten prayers every day. I went back and he said the like of it. Then I went back and was commanded five prayers every day. I went back to Musa and he said, ‘What have you been commanded?’ I said, “I have been commanded five prayers every day.’ He said, ‘Your community will not able to do five prayers every day. I tested people before you. I tried as hard as I could with the tribe of Israel. So back to your Lord and ask Him to reduce it for your community.’ I said, ‘I have asked my Lord until I am embarrassed, but I am content and have submitted.’ When I passed, there was a call, ‘I have imposed My obligation and have lightened it for My slaves.’” (Bewley, Sahih al-Bukhari, Chapter 66. Book of the Virtues of the Companions, LXXI: The Mi’raj, No. 3674: *; *)
See also Khan’s translation of Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 5, Book 58, Number 227.
Here is the fourth part of second post.
According to some other reports this was supposedly the time when Muhammad saw his Lord as light:
Chapter 78: THE MEANING OF THE WORDS OF ALLAH: “HE SAW HIM IN ANOTHER DESCENT” (AL-QUR’AN, LIII. 13). DID THE APOSTLE SEE HIS LORD ON THE NIGHT OF HIS JOURNEY (TO HEAVEN)?
It is narrated on the authority of Ibn ‘Abbas that he (the Holy Prophet) saw (Allah) with his heart. (Sahih Muslim, Book 001, Number 0334)
It is narrated on the authority of Ibn Abbas that the words: “The heart belied not what he saw” (al-Qur’an, Iiii. 11) and “Certainly he saw Him in another descent” (al-Qur’an, Iiii. 13) imply that he saw him twice with his heart. (Sahih Muslim, Book 001, Number 0335)
Chapter 79: PERTAINING TO HIS (PROPHET’S) WORDS: HE IS A LIGHT; HOW COULD I SEE HIM? – AND HIS WORDS: I SAW THE LIGHT
It is narrated on the authority of Abu Dharr: I asked the Messenger of Allah: Did you see thy Lord? He said: He is a Light. How could I see Him? (Sahih Muslim, Book 001, Number 0341)
Abdullah b. Shaqiq reported: I said to Abu Dharr: Had I seen the Messenger of Allah, I would have asked him. He (Abu Dharr) said: What is that thing that you wanted to inquire of him? He said: I wanted to ask him whether he had seen his Lord. Abu Dharr said: I, in fact, inquired of him, and he replied: I saw Light. (Sahih Muslim, Book 001, Number 0342)
Thus, this would seem to suggest that Allah dwells in a house somewhere in the highest heaven.
However, other narratives claim that Allah and his throne are actually situated above the seventh heaven since the latter is the roof of creation:
There are two views over the meaning of the phrase…
(The first view) is that it refers to its fixed course of location, which is beneath the Throne, BEYOND the earth in that direction. Wherever it goes, it is beneath the Throne, it and all of creation, because the Throne is the ROOF of creation and it is not a sphere as many astronomers claim. Rather it is A DOME SUPPORTED BY LEGS OR PILLARS, CARRIED BY THE ANGELS, and it is ABOVE the universe, ABOVE the heads of people. When the sun is at its zenith at noon, it is in its closest position to the Throne, and when it runs in its fourth orbit at the opposite point to its zenith, at midnight, it is in its furthest position from the Throne. At that point it prostrates and asks permission to rise, as mentioned in the Hadiths.
Al-Bukhari recorded that Abu Dharr said, “I was with the Prophet in the Masjid at sunset, and he said…
((O Abu Dharr! Do you know where the sun sets?)) I said, ‘Allah and His Messenger know best.’ He said…
((It goes and prostrates itself beneath the Throne, and that is what Allah says: ))”
It was also reported that Abu Dharr said, “I asked the Messenger of Allah about the Ayah…
((Its fixed course is beneath the Throne.))”… (Tafsir Ibn Kathir Abridged, Volume 8 Surat Al-Ahzab, Verse 51 to the end of Surat Ad-Dukhan, abridged by a group of scholars under the supervision of Shaykh Safiur-Rahman Al-Mubarakpuri [Darussalam Publishers & Distributors, Riyadh, Houston, New York, London, Lahore; September 2000, first edition], pp. 196-197: *; bold and capital emphasis ours)
Here is the fifth part of my second post.
Since Allah’s throne is the roof of creation (which would include the seven heavens) and therefore above it, and since Allah is on or above the throne,
Surely your Lord is God, who created the heavens and the earth in six days — then sat Himself upon the Throne, covering the day with the night it pursues urgently — and the sun, and the moon, and the stars subservient, by His command. Verily, His are the creation and the command. Blessed be God, the Lord of all Being. S. 7:54
This means that he himself is located above creation.
But then there are certain reports which mention Firdaus, a place in the garden/paradise (Janna) that is actually located above Allah’s throne!
IV: The degrees of those doing jihad in the way of Allah. (One says “this is my way” in either the feminine or masculine.)
Abu ‘Abdullah said that the singular of ghuza (3:156) is ghâzî. “They are degrees” (3:163) is “they have degrees.”
2637. It is related from Abu Hurayra that the Messenger of Allah said, “If someone believes in Allah and His Messenger and establishes the prayer and fasts Ramadan, it is mandatory for Allah to admit him to the Garden, whether he does jihad in the Way of Allah or sits in the land where he was born.” They asked, “Messenger of Allah, shall we give the people the good news?” He said, “In the Garden there are a hundred degrees which Allah has prepared for those who do jihad in the way of Allah. Between each two degrees is the space between heaven and earth. When you ask Allah, ask Him for Firdaws which is in the middle of the Garden and the top of the Garden.” I think that he said, “above the Throne of the All-Merciful and from it spring the rivers of the Garden.”
Muhammad ibn Fulayj said from his father, “Above it is the Throne of the All-Merciful.” (Aisha Bewley, The Sahih Collection of al-Bukhari, Chapter 61. Book of Jihad and Military Expeditions: *; *)
6987. ‘Ata’ ibn Yasar related from Abu Hurayra that the Prophet said, “If anyone believes in Allah and His Messenger and establishes the prayer and fasts Ramadan, it is mandatory for Allah to admit him to the Garden, whether he emigrates in the way of Allah or sits in the land where he was born.” They asked, “Messenger of Allah, shall we inform the people about that?” He said, “In the Garden there are a hundred degrees which Allah has prepared for those who do jihad in the way of Allah. Between each two degrees is the space between heaven and earth. When you ask Allah, ask Him for Firdaws which is in the middle of the Garden and the top of the Garden above the Throne of the Merciful and from it spring the rivers of the Garden.” (Bewley, Sahih al-Bukhari, 100. Book of Tawhid (the belief that Allah is One in His Essence, Attributes and Actions), XXII. “When His Throne was on the water.” (11:7) “And He is the Lord of the Mighty Throne” (27:26): *; *; bold and underline emphasis ours)
Thus, Allah’s throne is NOT above everything since there is a specific garden that is actually higher than it! Talk about major mass confusion!
Here is the fifth part of my second post.
In light of this, it is possible that Allah’s heavenly house is located in that same garden where Firdaus is.
Whatever the case may be, these reports conclusively demonstrate that Allah is not an omnipresent being since he doesn’t exist everywhere. Rather, Allah lives in a specific place that is located either in heaven somewhere or above it. This explains why Allah is said to descend to the lowest heaven in the third part of every night:
XIV: Supplication and prayer during the last part of the night
Allah says, “The part of the night they spent asleep was small and they would seek forgiveness before dawn.” (51:17)
1094. It is related from Abu Hurayra that the Messenger of Allah said, “Every night, when a third of the night remains, Allah, the Blessed and Exalted, descends to the lowest heaven saying, ‘Is there anyone calling on Me that I may answer him? Is there anyone asking anything of Me that I may give it to him? Is there anyone asking forgiveness of Me that I may forgive him?’” (Bewley, Sahih al-Bukhari, Chapter 25. Tahajjud Prayers: *; *; underline emphasis ours)
7056. Abu ‘Abdullah al-Agharr related from Abu Hurayra that the Messenger of Allah said, “Every night, when a third of the night remains, Allah, the Blessed and Exalted, descends to the lowest heaven saying, ‘Is there anyone calling on Me that I may answer him? Is there anyone asking anything of Me that I may give it to him? Is there anyone asking forgiveness of Me that I may forgive him?’” (Bewley, Sahih al-Bukhari, 100. Book of Tawhid (the belief that Allah is One in His Essence, Attributes and Actions), XXXV. The words of Allah Almighty, “They desire alter Allah’s words…” (48:15): *; *; bold and underline emphasis ours)
See also Khan’s version of Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 2, Book 21, Number 246 and Volume 9, Book 93, Number 586.
This also helps us to further understand why the Muslim scripture says that Allah, along with the angels, travels from one place to another:
What do they look for, but that Allah shall come to them in the cloud — shadows, and the angels? The matter is determined, and unto Allah all matters are returned. S. 2:210
So, when the Trumpet is blown with a single blast and the earth and the mountains are lifted up and crushed with a single blow, then, on that day, the Terror shall come to pass, and heaven shall be split, for upon that day it shall be very frail, and the angels shall stand upon its borders, and upon that day eight shall carry above them the Throne of thy Lord. On that day you shall be exposed, not one secret of yours concealed. S. 69:13-18
No indeed! When the earth is ground to powder, and thy Lord comes, and the angels rank on rank, and Gehenna is brought out, upon that day man will remember; and how shall the Reminder be for him? S. 89:21-22
Allah is apparently not omnipresent! In light of this it can’t be possible for Allah to live both in heaven and in the Kabah at the same time.
Here is the sixth part of my second post.
However, some Muslims may argue that Allah, like Yahweh the true God, is omnipresent in that he is able to dwell in more than one place at the same time without this diminishing his Deity in the least. They may contend that all these verses and reports are not denying his omnipresence but are speaking of Allah appearing in some unique way, manifesting his presence in a tangible form so that the inhabitants of heaven or the earth may see and behold his glory, which is what this next narrative seems to imply:
7001. ‘Ata’ ibn Yasar related that Abu Sa’id al-Khudri said, “We asked, ‘Messenger of Allah, will we see our Lord on the Day of Rising?’ He said, ‘Do you dispute with one another about seeing the sun or moon when there are no clouds.’ ‘No,’ we answered. He said, ‘You will not dispute with one another about seeing you Lord on that Day except as you disagree about seeing either of them.’ Then he said, ‘An announcer will make a proclamation: “Let every community follow what they used to worship.” The people of the cross will go with their cross. Those with idols will go with their idols. The people of every deity will go with their deity until there only remains those who worshipped Allah, pious or impious, and the remnants of the People of the Book. Then Jahannam will be brought and presented to them as if it was a mirage. The Jews will be asked, “What were you worshipping?” They will say, “We used to worship ‘Uzayr the son of God.” They will be told, “You lied. Allah has not taken consort or son. What are you seeking?” They will say, “We want for You to let us drink.” It will be said, “Drink.” They will fall [into Hell]. Then the Christians will be asked, “What were you worshipping?” They will answer, “We used to worship the Messiah son of God.” They will be told, “You lied. Allah has not taken consort or son. What are you seeking?” They will say, “We want for You to let us drink.” It will be said, “Drink.” They will fall [into Hell]. There will remain those who worshipped Allah, pious or impious. They will be asked, “What keeps you when all of the people have gone?’ They will answer, “We parted from them (in the world) in spite of having greater need of them then. We heard an announcer proclaiming, ‘Let every nation join what they used to worship.’ We are waiting for our Lord.” Then the Compeller will come to them in a form other than His form which they saw the first time and will say, “I am your Lord.” they will answer, “You are not our Lord.” None will speak to Him except for the Prophets. He will say, “Is there a sign between you and Him by which you can recognise Him?” “The shin,” they will answer. He will uncover his shin* and every believer will prostrate to Him. There will remain those who used to prostrate to Allah in order to show off and for the sake of reputation. They will go to prostrate and their backs will become like a single surface. Then the bridge will be brought and placed over the Fire.’ (Bewley, Sahih al-Bukhari, 100. Book of Tawhid (the belief that Allah is One in His Essence, Attributes and Actions), XXIV. The words of Allah Almighty, “Faces that Day will be radiant, gazing at their Lord.” (75:22-23): *; *; bold and underline emphasis ours)
See also Khan’s version of Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 9, Book 93, Number 532s.
Here is the seventh part of my second post.
They may further contend that the Quran does say that no matter what direction a person turns to Allah’s face is there since it is everywhere:
And to Allah belong the east and the west, so wherever you turn yourselves or your faces there is the Face of Allah (wajhu Allahi) (and He is High above, over His Throne)… S. 2:115 Hilali-Khan
And that Allah is with man wherever he is seeing that he is closer to him than his own jugular vein:
And when My servants question thee concerning Me — I am near to answer the call of the caller, when he calls to Me; so let them respond to Me, and let them believe in Me; haply so they will go aright. S. 2:186
They seek to hide from men and seek not to hide from Allah. He is with them when by night they hold discourse displeasing unto Him. Allah ever surroundeth what they do. S. 4:108
And when We said to thee, ‘Surely thy Lord encompasses men,’ and We made the vision that We showed thee and the tree cursed in the Koran to be only a trial for men; and We frighten them, but it only increases them in great insolence. S. 17:60
We indeed created man; and We know what his soul whispers within him, and We are nearer to him than the jugular vein. When the two angels meet together, sitting one on the right, and one on the left, S. 50:16-17
(And We are nigher him than you, but you do not see Us) S. 56:85
It is He that created the heavens and the earth in six days then seated Himself upon the Throne. He knows what penetrates into the earth, and what comes forth from it, — what comes down from heaven, and what goes up unto it. He is with you wherever you are; and Allah sees the things you do. S. 57:4
Hast thou not seen that Allah knoweth all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth? There is no secret conference of three but He is their fourth, nor of five but He is their sixth, nor of less than that or more but He is with them wheresoever they may be; and afterward, on the Day of Resurrection, He will inform them of what they did. Lo! Allah is Knower of all things. S. 58:7
The hadiths concur:
Narrated Abu Musa Al-Ashari:
When Allah’s Apostle fought the battle of Khaibar, or when Allah’s Apostle went towards it, (whenever) the people, (passed over a high place overlooking a valley, they raised their voices saying, “Allahu-Akbar! Allahu-Akbar! None has the right to be worshipped except Allah.” On that Allah’s Apostle said (to them), “Lower your voices, for you are not calling a deaf or an absent one, but you are calling a Hearer Who is near and is with you.” I was behind the riding animal of Allah’s Apostle and he heard me saying. “There Is neither might, nor power but with Allah,” On that he said to me, “O Abdullah bin Qais!” I said, “Labbaik. O Allah’s Apostle!” He said, “Shall I tell you a sentence which is one of the treasures of Paradise” I said, “Yes, O Allah’s Apostle! Let my father and mother be sacrificed for your sake.” He said, “It is: There is neither might nor power but with Allah.” (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 5, Book 59, Number 516)
Here is the eigth part of my second post.
However, if Allah’s face is everywhere and he is with man wherever he is then why are Muslims required to bow down to the Kaba? What makes the Kaba anymore special than any other location on earth?
It will not suffice to say that Abraham and Ishmael built the Kaba since a) there is absolutely no archaeological proof that they ever went to Mecca, let alone built this pagan cube structure, and b) even if they did this still doesn’t explain why Muslims are required to prostrate to it.
The only answer that will suffice is to assert that Allah has chosen to dwell within the Kabah in a special and unique way, manifesting his glory in that specific location in a manner that he hasn’t done so for any other place. (Besides the Temple in Jerusalem that is since Muslims do believe that this was also a house built for the worship of Allah. We will have more to say concerning Yahweh’s Temple in the second part of our discussion). Therefore, by prostrating towards the Kabah Muslims are actually bowing before Allah in worship since his presence is there.
This view would mean that Allah is currently dwelling in a house in the highest heaven and one located on the earth, which raises some further questions. If Muslims believe that Allah can inhabit both a heavenly and an earthly house at the same time then why can’t he inhabit a physical body without this diminishing his divinity? After all if Allah allows himself to be contained within shrines that are limited in size and place then why is he incapable of possessing a physical body without ceasing to be fully divine?
The other problem is that there are Muslims who outright deny that Allah dwells in the Kabah:
Muslims lift their hands toward the sky when they make supplications (du’a) to Allah because the sky is the qibla for du’a, not that Allah occupies that particular direction–just as the Kaaba is the qibla of the prayer (salat), without Muslims believing that Allah is in that direction. Rather, Allah in His wisdom has made the qibla a sign (ayah) of Muslim unity, just as He has made the sky the sign of His exaltedness and His infinitude, meanings which come to the heart of every believer merely by facing the sky and supplicating Allah. (Nu Ha Min Keller, Is Allah in the Sky?: *; *; bold and underline emphasis ours)
Keller’s assertion that the qiblah is a sign of Muslim unity isn’t a sufficient explanation for praying towards the Kabah, especially if Allah isn’t in that direction, since this essentially means that Allah united Muslims in bowing to a pagan shrine, thereby causing them to commit idolatry!
Hence, for Muslims like Keller who deny that Allah actually lives in the Kabah in some unique and special way – or reject that he dwells there in any sense whatsoever since Allah doesn’t live on earth but in heaven or above the seven heavens – are faced with a dilemma. They must contend with the fact that they are guilty of worshiping the Kabah by bowing to it or in its direction since prostration is an act of worship according to the Quran. And since Allah doesn’t live there and isn’t in that direction the Muslims are therefore actually worshiping a pagan shrine along with Allah for no good reason other than that their prophet told them to do so!
This is similar to Muhammad exhorting his followers to kiss and caress a black stone, which could neither benefit nor harm anyone, thereby leading countless number of Muslims to engage in a rather blatant act of idolatry! http://answering-islam.org/authors/shamoun/kabah_idol1.html
So Muslims why are you bowing to the Kabah? Now before you decide to turn to the Holy Bible and quote passages where the prophets of Yahweh and the righteous prayed towards Jerusalem in order to justify your idolatrous practices we suggest that you first read our answer. Besides, you can’t have your cake and eat it too. You can’t appeal to the Holy Bible to prove your case on the one hand and then turn around and attack it, saying it is corrupted, whenever Christians use it to expose Muhammad as a false prophet.
Sam, now you know PW can't be expected to read more than a couple of paragraphs. And that is on a good day. And why torture the man? You know full well he would answer if he could in the only way he knows how --> by pressing the "delete" button. He is probably pulling his hairs out (both of them) trying to locate the button as I write this.
By the way, I talked to Paul's shrink in the hopes of challenging Paul and in order to preempt his excuse. The bad news is he didn't exactly say I was sane, but he did say I was more than sane enough to debate Paul.
ROFL!!!! Man, you are way too hilarious!
My Response to PDubb on Ken's blog
Paul you wrote...
“Your questions to me are off topic and a crude attempt to change the subject (a subject I have no intention of writing about any time soon). “
This coming from a man who shouted for half an hour “Why does your God kill babies” when the topic that David and Jay Smith were disusing was “Allah helping start Christianity”. Paul what does “Why does your God kill babies” have to do with Allah helping to start Christianity? Seems like you were crude and off topic on that one.
Paul I'm wondering how my questions can become the subject, since even Ibrahim, someone you have said is “very intelligent” and “sane” is also waiting on your answer.
From Islamic sources I have learned that your god, has a face, he has eyes, he has a mouth, he has hands (some Muslims say allah only has right hands because having a left hand is beneath him), he has a shin, some Muslims say he even has loins, while Ijaz Ahmend and Abu Laith now say he is loinless, and has a waist cloth, he has a pre existent womb that attaches to his waist. Strange, does this make your god a transsexual god?
Either way your god seems kind of freakish, I mean how do you picture your god in your mind, walking around with his various parts, and his waist cloth with the womb attached to it.
“It is quite clear that despite all protests to the contrary, you are genuinely stumped by this question. “
No we are not stumped by your false dilemma, since I and others have always responded that we worship the divine person that has two natures.
“Is Jesus then and now 100% man in mind, body and soul, alike us in ALL things except for sin? “
This is another demonstration that you did not know and you do not know what Christians believe. I don't know about you Paul, but I have never met a person who has two natures, a human nature and a divine nature.
You continue to repeat your false dilemma:
“ Do you as a Christian worship both the human and divine Jesus? “
To which the response has been
We worship the Divine Person who has two natures human and Divine.
You continue to repeat your irrational question
“Do you differentiate in your worship between Jesus as God and Jesus the man? If you do NOT differentiate, then you are grievously sinning by committing idolatry – the worship of a creature. “
We do not differentiate between the two natures that is to say we do not worship the divine nature and not the human nature, we do not worship the human nature and not the divine nature and we do not worship the divine nature and the human nature. We worship the DIVINE person who has two natures.
Paul you can continue to confuse nature with person, you can continue to demonstrate that you do not and did not understand what Christians believe until the image of your loin less transsexual god with his pre existent womb attached to his waist clothe is pluck from your mind so you can recognize his various parts from the rest of the parts on the day of resurrection. However that will never change mine or anyone else answer to your false dilemma.
Response to PDub Part 2
You can choose not to understand our answer, you can refuse to accept our answer, however you can not say we refused to answer or that we are stumped by your question since we have answered you. Something you have yet to do when it comes to my questions. So who is the one who is really stumped? The one who answers your questions, or you who refuses to answer questions?
Paul your problem is that you can never really know your god, you don't know if he is a person, or if Allah is His attributes, or if Allah has a nature. So what business do you have by starting to ask questions about worshiping natures?
In fact muslims are divided over the concept as to whether Allah's attributes equate to Allah Himself or are other than Allah.
If Allah has no nature, and his attributes are other than Him, Paul do you worship a nature that Allah doesn't have? How about His attributes? Do you worship Allah's attributes? Be careful, you might be worshiping something other than Allah.
As you can see Paul my questions have everything to do with the topic. It is you who are stumped by your own topic.
“For while I was passing through and examining the objects of your worship, I also found an altar with this inscription, ‘TO AN UNKNOWN GOD.’ Therefore what you worship in ignorance, this I proclaim to you Acts 17:23
And what I proclaim to you is not your transsexual god of various body parts and a waist cloth. I proclaim to you the true living God, who is and was and is to come.
Paul since my previous questions have stumped you and you seem to have a problem with Mystery when it comes to God, maybe you can answer a simpler question.
What does Alef, La, Mim mean in the Quran?
David I normally would not do this, but this is to funny. This is a link to Yahya Snows blog. He has done us a great service so we will no longer be embarrassed by Muslims having eternal erections.
Read it and tell me who should be embarrassed. I'm so glad he cleared that up for us.
'Eternal Erections'? Muslim Explains So Christian missionary and anti-Muslim perverts stop embarrassing themselves
it doesn;t link there
Oh I lined it to the comment section of this blog lol.
Well just read Anthony Rogers post and go to here
Paraphrasing Anthony, "Paul... thought my response was... evidence that I was having a bad hair day"
Methinks Paul needs to read more Confucius, who very wisely said, "Man with crewcut NEVER have bad hair day"
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