Tuesday, June 4, 2013

Idolatry and Islamic Worship


We’ve all heard Muslims say that worshipping Jesus as the Word made flesh is inherently and inescapably idolatrous, particularly since Jesus in His humanity has a form and could be seen, handled, touched, etc., during His earthly sojourn, even as He can now be seen by angels and saints in glory and will be seen by all at the great assize. Paul Williams, a Western convert from Christianity to Islam, tells us that when he thought of himself as a Christian he actually would go to such an extent that he would “picture him in my mind’s eye receiving my praise and worship,” which is something he has now come to believe is idolatrous. He further tells us that idolatry is built into Christianity, “for the simple reason that worship and divine honour is rendered to Jesus as a human being, a creature of the Creator, without any attempt to focus on God alone.” One thing we see from this is that Paul has not made any further progress in his understanding of Christianity since the time of his apostasy, but it is hardly surprising that he would make no significant progress after his departure since he did not even make any great strides before that time.

What really is surprising in all of this is that Paul seems to be just as blissfully unaware of what the religion he currently holds to tells us on such matters as the one he left. According to Islam it is of course true that Allah has not become a human being. But it hardly follows from this that the Islamic sources teach that Allah has no form and cannot be seen. Indeed, the Allah of the Qur’an and Sunnah seems to have all the stock equipment possessed by any human creature, such as a form, face, eyes, hands, palms, side, shin, feet, etc., and all that without ever having become incarnate.

Since I have dealt with other aspects of this in other articles, here I will just point out some of the voluminous evidence for the fact that the Islamic sources teach that Allah will be seen by Muslims on the last day. Worse than this for Muslims like Paul, the Islamic sources even tell us that Muslims are to look forward to the day when they will see him, a day when he will appear to them in a way nearest to “the picture they had in their minds about him.”

According to the following verse of the Qur’an, unbelievers will be denied the pleasure of seeing Allah at the eschaton: “Verily, from their Lord, that Day, will they be veiled” (S. 5:15). It has naturally been inferred from this that Allah will not be so veiled to the Muslim faithful, an inference explicitly affirmed in another Qur’anic verse: “Some faces, that day, will beam (in brightness and beauty), looking at their Lord” (S. 75:22-23).

The same is taught many times over in various and sundry traditions from Muhammad, a “smattering” of which follow:

Narrated Qais: Jarir said, "We were with the Prophet and he looked at the moon--full-moon--and said, 'Certainly you will SEE your Lord as you see this moon and you will have no trouble in SEEING Him. So if you can avoid missing (through sleep or business, etc.) a prayer before the sun-rise (Fajr) and a prayer before sunset ('Asr), you must do so.' He then recited Allah's Statement: And celebrate the praises Of your Lord before The rising of the sun And before (its) setting." (50.39) Isma'il said, "Offer those prayers and do not miss them." (Bukhari, 1.10.529)

Narrated Abu Huraira: Some people said, "O Allah's Apostle! Shall we see our Lord on the Day of Resurrection?" He said, "Do you crowd and squeeze each other on looking at the sun when it is not hidden by clouds?" They replied, "No, Allah's Apostle." He said, "Do you crowd and squeeze each other on looking at the moon when it is full and not hidden by clouds?" They replied, No, O Allah's Apostle!" He said, "So you will SEE Him (your Lord) on the Day of Resurrection. Similarly Allah will gather all the people and say, 'Whoever used to worship anything should follow that thing. 'So, he who used to worship the sun, will follow it, and he who used to worship the moon will follow it, and he who used to worship false deities will follow them; and then only this nation (i.e., Muslims) will remain, including their hypocrites. Allah will come to them in a shape other than they know and will say, 'I am your Lord.' They will say, 'We seek refuge with Allah from you. This is our place; (we will not follow you) till our Lord comes to us, and when our Lord comes to us, we will recognize Him.

Then Allah will come to then in a shape they know and will say, "I am your Lord.' They will say, '(No doubt) You are our Lord,' and they will follow Him. Then a bridge will be laid over the (Hell) Fire." Allah's Apostle added, "I will be the first to cross it. And the invocation of the Apostles on that Day, will be 'Allahukka Sallim, Sallim (O Allah, save us, save us!),' and over that bridge there will be hooks Similar to the thorns of As Sa'dan (a thorny tree). Didn't you see the thorns of As-Sa'dan?" The companions said, "Yes, O Allah's Apostle." He added, "So the hooks over that bridge will be like the thorns of As-Sa-dan except that their greatness in size is only known to Allah. These hooks will snatch the people according to their deeds. Some people will be ruined because of their evil deeds, and some will be cut into pieces and fall down in Hell, but will be saved afterwards, when Allah has finished the judgments among His slaves, and intends to take out of the Fire whoever He wishes to take out from among those who used to testify that none had the right to be worshipped but Allah.

We will order the angels to take them out and the angels will know them by the mark of the traces of prostration (on their foreheads) for Allah banned the fire to consume the traces of prostration on the body of Adam's son. So they will take them out, and by then they would have burnt (as coal), and then water, called Maul Hayat (water of life) will be poured on them, and they will spring out like a seed springs out on the bank of a rainwater stream, and there will remain one man who will be facing the (Hell) Fire and will say, 'O Lord! It's (Hell's) vapor has Poisoned and smoked me and its flame has burnt me; please turn my face away from the Fire.' He will keep on invoking Allah till Allah says, 'Perhaps, if I give you what you want), you will ask for another thing?' The man will say, 'No, by Your Power, I will not ask You for anything else.'

Then Allah will turn his face away from the Fire. The man will say after that, 'O Lord, bring me near the gate of Paradise.' Allah will say (to him), 'Didn't you promise not to ask for anything else? Woe to you, O son of Adam ! How treacherous you are!' The man will keep on invoking Allah till Allah will say, 'But if I give you that, you may ask me for something else.' The man will say, 'No, by Your Power. I will not ask for anything else.' He will give Allah his covenant and promise not to ask for anything else after that. So Allah will bring him near to the gate of Paradise, and when he sees what is in it, he will remain silent as long as Allah will, and then he will say, 'O Lord! Let me enter Paradise.' Allah will say, 'Didn't you promise that you would not ask Me for anything other than that? Woe to you, O son of Adam ! How treacherous you are!' On that, the man will say, 'O Lord! Do not make me the most wretched of Your creation,' and will keep on invoking Allah till Allah will smile and when Allah will smile because of him, then He will allow him to enter Paradise, and when he will enter Paradise, he will be addressed, 'Wish from so-and-so.' He will wish till all his wishes will be fulfilled, then Allah will say, All this (i.e. what you have wished for) and as much again therewith are for you.'"

Abu Huraira added: That man will be the last of the people of Paradise to enter (Paradise).
Narrated 'Ata (while Abu Huraira was narrating): Abu Said was sitting in the company of Abu Huraira and he did not deny anything of his narration till he reached his saying: "All this and as much again therewith are for you." Then Abu Sa'id said, "I heard Allah's Apostle saying, 'This is for you and ten times as much.' " Abu Huraira said, "In my memory it is 'as much again therewith.' " (Sahih Bukhari, 8.76.577)

Narrated Jarir: We were sitting with the Prophet and he looked at the moon on the night of the full-moon and said, "You people will SEE your Lord as you see this full moon, and you will have no trouble in SEEING Him, so if you can avoid missing (through sleep or business, etc.) a prayer before sunrise (Fajr) and a prayer before sunset (Asr) you must do so." (See Hadith No. 529, Vol. 1) (Sahih Bukhari, 9.93.529)

Narrated Jarir bin 'Abdullah: The Prophet said, "You will definitely SEE your Lord with your own eyes." (Sahih Bukhari, 9.93.530)

Narrated Jarir: Allah's Apostle came out to us on the night of the full moon and said, "You will SEE your Lord on the Day of Resurrection as you see this (full moon) and you will have no difficulty in SEEING Him." (Sahih Bukhari, 9.93. 531)

Narrated 'Ata' bin Yazid Al-Laithi: On the authority of Abu Huraira: The people said, "O Allah's Apostle! Shall we SEE our Lord on the Day of Resurrection?" The Prophet said, "Do you have any difficulty in seeing the moon on a full moon night?" They said, "No, O Allah's Apostle." He said, "Do you have any difficulty in seeing the sun when there are no clouds?" They said, "No, O Allah's Apostle." He said, "So you will SEE Him, like that. Allah will gather all the people on the Day of Resurrection, and say, 'Whoever worshipped something (in the world) should follow (that thing),' so, whoever worshipped the sun will follow the sun, and whoever worshiped the moon will follow the moon, and whoever used to worship certain (other false) deities, he will follow those deities. And there will remain only this nation with its good people (or its hypocrites). (The sub-narrator, Ibrahim is in doubt.) Allah will come to them and say, 'I am your Lord.' They will (deny Him and) say, 'We will stay here till our Lord comes, for when our Lord comes, we will recognize Him.' So Allah will come to them in His APPEARANCE which they know, and will say, 'I am your Lord.' They will say, 'You are our Lord,' so they will follow Him.

Then a bridge will be laid across Hell (Fire)' I and my followers will be the first ones to go across it and none will speak on that Day except the Apostles. And the invocation of the Apostles on that Day will be, 'O Allah, save! Save!' In Hell (or over The Bridge) there will be hooks like the thorns of As-Sa'dan (thorny plant). Have you seen As-Sa'dan? " They replied, "Yes, O Allah's Apostle!" He said, "So those hooks look like the thorns of As-Sa'dan, but none knows how big they are except Allah. Those hooks will snap the people away according to their deeds. Some of the people will stay in Hell (be destroyed) because of their (evil) deeds, and some will be cut or torn by the hooks (and fall into Hell) and some will be punished and then relieved. When Allah has finished His Judgments among the people, He will take whomever He will out of Hell through His Mercy. He will then order the angels to take out of the Fire all those who used to worship none but Allah from among those whom Allah wanted to be merciful to and those who testified (in the world) that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah. The angels will recognize them in the Fire by the marks of prostration (on their foreheads), for the Fire will eat up all the human body except the mark caused by prostration as Allah has forbidden the Fire to eat the mark of prostration. They will come out of the (Hell) Fire, completely burnt and then the water of life will be poured over them and they will grow under it as does a seed that comes in the mud of the torrent.

Then Allah will finish the judgments among the people, and there will remain one man facing the (Hell) Fire and he will be the last person among the people of Hell to enter Paradise. He will say, 'O my Lord! Please turn my face away from the fire because its air has hurt me and its severe heat has burnt me.' So he will invoke Allah in the way Allah will wish him to invoke, and then Allah will say to him, 'If I grant you that, will you then ask for anything else?' He will reply, 'No, by Your Power, (Honor) I will not ask You for anything else.' He will give his Lord whatever promises and covenants Allah will demand.

So Allah will turn his face away from Hell (Fire). When he will face Paradise and will see it, he will remain quiet for as long as Allah will wish him to remain quiet, then he will say, 'O my Lord! Bring me near to the gate of Paradise.' Allah will say to him, 'Didn't you give your promises and covenants that you would never ask for anything more than what you had been given? Woe on you, O Adam's son! How treacherous you are!' He will say, 'O my lord,' and will keep on invoking Allah till He says to him, 'If I give what you are asking, will you then ask for anything else?' He will reply, 'No, by Your (Honor) Power, I will not ask for anything else.'

Then he will give covenants and promises to Allah and then Allah will bring him near to the gate of Paradise. When he stands at the gate of Paradise, Paradise will be opened and spread before him, and he will see its splendor and pleasures whereupon he will remain quiet as long as Allah will wish him to remain quiet, and then he will say, O my Lord! Admit me into Paradise.' Allah will say, 'Didn't you give your covenants and promises that you would not ask for anything more than what you had been given?' Allah will say, 'Woe on you, O Adam's son! How treacherous you are!'

The man will say, 'O my Lord! Do not make me the most miserable of Your creation,' and he will keep on invoking Allah till Allah will laugh because of his sayings, and when Allah will laugh because of him, He will say to him, 'Enter Paradise,' and when he will enter it, Allah will say to him, 'Wish for anything.' So he will ask his Lord, and he will wish for a great number of things, for Allah Himself will remind him to wish for certain things by saying, '(Wish for) so-and-so.' When there is nothing more to wish for, Allah will say, 'This is for you, and its equal (is for you) as well."

'Ata' bin Yazid added: Abu Sa'id Al-Khudri who was present with Abu Huraira, did not deny whatever the latter said, but when Abu Huraira said that Allah had said, "That is for you and its equal as well," Abu Sa'id Al-Khudri said, "And ten times as much, O Abu Huraira!" Abu Huraira said, "I do not remember, except his saying, 'That is for you and its equal as well.'" Abu Sa'id Al-Khudri then said, "I testify that I remember the Prophet saying, 'That is for you, and ten times as much.' ' Abu Huraira then added, "That man will be the last person of the people of Paradise to enter Paradise." (Sahih Bukhari, 9.93.532c)

Narrated Abu Sa'id Al-Khudri: We said, "O Allah's Apostle! Shall we see our Lord on the Day of Resurrection?" He said, "Do you have any difficulty in seeing the sun and the moon when the sky is clear?" We said, "No." He said, "So you will have no difficulty in SEEING your Lord on that Day as you have no difficulty in seeing the sun and the moon (in a clear sky)." The Prophet then said, "Somebody will then announce, 'Let every nation follow what they used to worship.' So the companions of the cross will go with their cross, and the idolators (will go) with their idols, and the companions of every god (false deities) (will go) with their god, till there remain those who used to worship Allah, both the obedient ones and the mischievous ones, and some of the people of the Scripture. Then Hell will be presented to them as if it were a mirage. Then it will be said to the Jews, "What did you use to worship?' They will reply, 'We used to worship Ezra, the son of Allah.' It will be said to them, 'You are liars, for Allah has neither a wife nor a son. What do you want (now)?' They will reply, 'We want You to provide us with water.' Then it will be said to them 'Drink,' and they will fall down in Hell (instead). Then it will be said to the Christians, 'What did you use to worship?'

They will reply, 'We used to worship Messiah, the son of Allah.' It will be said, 'You are liars, for Allah has neither a wife nor a son. What: do you want (now)?' They will say, 'We want You to provide us with water.' It will be said to them, 'Drink,' and they will fall down in Hell (instead). When there remain only those who used to worship Allah (Alone), both the obedient ones and the mischievous ones, it will be said to them, 'What keeps you here when all the people have gone?' They will say, 'We parted with them (in the world) when we were in greater need of them than we are today, we heard the call of one proclaiming, 'Let every nation follow what they used to worship,' and now we are waiting for our Lord.' Then the Almighty will come to them in a shape other than the one which they saw the first time, and He will say, 'I am your Lord,' and they will say, 'You are not our Lord.' And none will speak: to Him then but the Prophets, and then it will be said to them, 'Do you know any sign by which you can recognize Him?' They will say. 'The Shin,' and so Allah will then uncover His Shin whereupon every believer will prostrate before Him and there will remain those who used to prostrate before Him just for showing off and for gaining good reputation. These people will try to prostrate but their backs will be rigid like one piece of a wood (and they will not be able to prostrate). Then the bridge will be laid across Hell." We, the companions of the Prophet said, "O Allah's Apostle! What is the bridge?'

He said, "It is a slippery (bridge) on which there are clamps and (Hooks like) a thorny seed that is wide at one side and narrow at the other and has thorns with bent ends. Such a thorny seed is found in Najd and is called As-Sa'dan. Some of the believers will cross the bridge as quickly as the wink of an eye, some others as quick as lightning, a strong wind, fast horses or she-camels. So some will be safe without any harm; some will be safe after receiving some scratches, and some will fall down into Hell (Fire). The last person will cross by being dragged (over the bridge)." The Prophet said, "You (Muslims) cannot be more pressing in claiming from me a right that has been clearly proved to be yours than the believers in interceding with Almighty for their (Muslim) brothers on that Day, when they see themselves safe.

They will say, 'O Allah! (Save) our brothers (for they) used to pray with us, fast with us and also do good deeds with us.' Allah will say, 'Go and take out (of Hell) anyone in whose heart you find faith equal to the weight of one (gold) Dinar.' Allah will forbid the Fire to burn the faces of those sinners. They will go to them and find some of them in Hell (Fire) up to their feet, and some up to the middle of their legs. So they will take out those whom they will recognize and then they will return, and Allah will say (to them), 'Go and take out (of Hell) anyone in whose heart you find faith equal to the weight of one half Dinar.' They will take out whomever they will recognize and return, and then Allah will say, 'Go and take out (of Hell) anyone in whose heart you find faith equal to the weight of an atom (or a smallest ant), and so they will take out all those whom they will recognize." Abu Sa'id said: If you do not believe me then read the Holy Verse:--

'Surely! Allah wrongs not even of the weight of an atom (or a smallest ant) but if there is any good (done) He doubles it.' (4.40) The Prophet added, "Then the prophets and Angels and the believers will intercede, and (last of all) the Almighty (Allah) will say, 'Now remains My Intercession. He will then hold a handful of the Fire from which He will take out some people whose bodies have been burnt, and they will be thrown into a river at the entrance of Paradise, called the water of life.

They will grow on its banks, as a seed carried by the torrent grows. You have noticed how it grows beside a rock or beside a tree, and how the side facing the sun is usually green while the side facing the shade is white. Those people will come out (of the River of Life) like pearls, and they will have (golden) necklaces, and then they will enter Paradise whereupon the people of Paradise will say, 'These are the people emancipated by the Beneficent. He has admitted them into Paradise without them having done any good deeds and without sending forth any good (for themselves).' Then it will be said to them, 'For you is what you have seen and its equivalent as well.'" (Sahih Bukhari, 9.93.532s)

Narrated Anas: The Prophet said, "The believers will be kept (waiting) on the Day of Resurrection so long that they will become worried and say, "Let us ask somebody to intercede far us with our Lord so that He may relieve us from our place.

Then they will go to Adam and say, 'You are Adam, the father of the people. Allah created you with His Own Hand and made you reside in His Paradise and ordered His angels to prostrate before you, and taught you the names of all things will you intercede for us with your Lord so that He may relieve us from this place of ours? Adam will say, 'I am not fit for this undertaking.' He will mention his mistakes he had committed, i.e., his eating off the tree though he had been forbidden to do so. He will add, 'Go to Noah, the first prophet sent by Allah to the people of the Earth.' The people will go to Noah who will say, 'I am not fit for this undertaking' He will mention his mistake which he had done, i.e., his asking his Lord without knowledge.' He will say (to them), 'Go to Abraham, Khalil Ar-Rahman.' They will go to Abraham who will say, 'I am not fit for this undertaking. He would mention three words by which he told a lie, and say (to them). 'Go to Moses, a slave whom Allah gave the Torah and spoke to, directly and brought near Him, for conversation.'

They will go to Moses who will say, 'I am not fit for this undertaking. He will mention his mistake he made, i.e., killing a person, and will say (to them), 'Go to Jesus, Allah's slave and His Apostle, and a soul created by Him and His Word.' (Be: And it was.) They will go to Jesus who will say, 'I am not fit for this undertaking but you'd better go to Muhammad the slave whose past and future sins have been forgiven by Allah.' So they will come to me, and I will ask my Lord's permission to enter His House and then I will be permitted. When I SEE Him I will fall down in prostration before Him, and He will leave me (in prostration) as long as He will, and then He will say, 'O Muhammad, lift up your head and speak, for you will be listened to, and intercede, for your intercession will be accepted, and ask (for anything) for it will be granted:' Then I will raise my head and glorify my Lord with certain praises which He has taught me. Allah will put a limit for me (to intercede for a certain type of people) I will take them out and make them enter Paradise." (Qatada said: I heard Anas saying that), the Prophet said, "I will go out and take them out of Hell (Fire) and let them enter Paradise, and then I will return and ask my Lord for permission to enter His House and I will be permitted.

When I will SEE Him I will fall down in prostration before Him and He will leave me in prostration as long as He will let me (in that state), and then He will say, 'O Muhammad, raise your head and speak, for you will be listened to, and intercede, for your intercession will be accepted, and ask, your request will be granted.' " The Prophet added, "So I will raise my head and glorify and praise Him as He has taught me. Then I will intercede and He will put a limit for me (to intercede for a certain type of people). I will take them out and let them enter Paradise." (Qatada added: I heard Anas saying that) the Prophet said, 'I will go out and take them out of Hell (Fire) and let them enter Paradise, and I will return for the third time and will ask my Lord for permission to enter His house, and I will be allowed to enter.

When I SEE Him, I will fall down in prostration before Him, and will remain in prostration as long as He will, and then He will say, 'Raise your head, O Muhammad, and speak, for you will be listened to, and intercede, for your intercession will be accepted, and ask, for your request will be granted.' So I will raise my head and praise Allah as He has taught me and then I will intercede and He will put a limit for me (to intercede for a certain type of people). I will take them out and let them enter Paradise." (Qatada said: I heard Anas saying that) the Prophet said, "So I will go out and take them out of Hell (Fire) and let them enter Paradise, till none will remain in the Fire except those whom Quran will imprison (i.e., those who are destined for eternal life in the fire)." The narrator then recited the Verse:-- "It may be that your Lord will raise you to a Station of Praise and Glory.' (17.79) The narrator added: This is the Station of Praise and Glory which Allah has promised to your Prophet. (Sahih Bukhari, 9.93.532v)

Narrated 'Adi bin Hatim: Allah's Apostle said, "There will be none among you but his Lord will speak to him, and there will be no interpreter between them nor a screen to screen Him." (Sahih Bukhari, 9.93.535)

Narrated 'Abdullah bin Qais: The Prophet said, "(There will be) two Paradises of silver and all the utensils and whatever is therein (will be of silver); and two Paradises of gold, and its utensils and whatever therein (will be of gold), and there will be nothing to prevent the people from SEEING their Lord except the Cover of Majesty over His Face in the Paradise of Eden (eternal bliss)." (Sahih Bukhari, 9.93.536)

Suhaib reported the Apostle (may peace be upon him) saying: When those deserving of Paradise would enter Paradise, the Blessed and the Exalted would ask: Do you wish Me to give you anything more? They would say: Hast Thou not brightened our faces? Hast Thou not made us enter Paradise and saved us from Fire? He (the narrator) said: He (God) would lift the veil, and of things given to them nothing would he dearer to them than the SIGHT of their Lord, the Mighty and the Glorious. (Sahih Muslim, 1.347)

And all that brings us to what is likely to become Paul Williams favorite hadith:

Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri: During the lifetime of the Prophet some people said, : O Allah's Apostle! Shall we see our Lord on the Day of Resurrection?" The Prophet said, "Yes; do you have any difficulty in seeing the sun at midday when it is bright and there is no cloud in the sky?" They replied, "No." He said, "Do you have any difficulty in seeing the moon on a full moon night when it is bright and there is no cloud in the sky?" They replied, "No." The Prophet said, "(Similarly) you will have no difficulty in seeing ALLAH on the Day of Resurrection as you have no difficulty in seeing either of them. On the Day of Resurrection, a call-maker will announce, "Let every nation follow that which they used to worship." Then none of those who used to worship anything other than Allah like idols and other deities but will fall in Hell (Fire), till there will remain none but those who used to worship Allah, both those who were obedient (i.e. good) and those who were disobedient (i.e. bad) and the remaining party of the people of the Scripture. Then the Jews will be called upon and it will be said to them, 'Who do you use to worship?' They will say, 'We used to worship Ezra, the son of Allah.' It will be said to them, 'You are liars, for Allah has never taken anyone as a wife or a son. What do you want now?' They will say, 'O our Lord! We are thirsty, so give us something to drink.' They will be directed and addressed thus, 'Will you drink,' whereupon they will be gathered unto Hell (Fire) which will look like a mirage whose different sides will be destroying each other. Then they will fall into the Fire. Afterwards the Christians will be called upon and it will be said to them, 'Who do you use to worship?' They will say, 'We used to worship Jesus, the son of Allah.' It will be said to them, 'You are liars, for Allah has never taken anyone as a wife or a son,' Then it will be said to them, 'What do you want?' They will say what the former people have said. Then, when there remain (in the gathering) none but those who used to worship Allah (Alone, the real Lord of the Worlds) whether they were obedient or disobedient. Then (Allah) the Lord of the worlds will come to them in a shape nearest to the picture they had in their minds about Him. It will be said, 'What are you waiting for?' Every nation have followed what they used to worship.' They will reply, 'We left the people in the world when we were in great need of them and we did not take them as friends. Now we are waiting for our Lord Whom we used to worship.' Allah will say, 'I am your Lord.' They will say twice or thrice, 'We do not worship any besides Allah.' " (Bukhari, 6.60.105)

Since Paul now believes it was idolatrous for him during the time he thought of himself as a Christian to imagine Jesus in his mind, we can be sure that he will now forsake Islam since it expects him to have a mental picture of Allah in order to be able to recognize him when he sees him on the final day. If you think I am being too optimistic, feel free to chalk this up to a “vain imagination” on my part. 

For further reading, see the following articles:

Allah the Man-God
Allah's Hands
Soul Man
Surah 9:128 and Bassam's Giant Problem
Adam - Allah's Twin Partner
Allah As An Exalted Shakhs
Allah - More Human Than Divine
The Annihilation of Allah
Revisiting the Face of Allah
Allah - An Immaterial Entity or An Invisible Man?

See also the following ABN broadcast:

Do Muslims Worship Allah's Body?

47 comments:

Radical Moderate said...

Wow poor Paul Williams his only response will be "Your a trouble maker" or "your rude"

crujjy said...

Anthony, you're genius as always

Paul said...

I would not say a genius at all, as he just attacks Islam rather than actually deal with the issues in my article. Perhaps he can stop running away and deal with the issues? Here is what I had to say:

When I was a Christian I routinely worshiped Jesus as god. I would picture him in my mind’s eye receiving my praise and worship.

But these days I see a number of serious problems with this behaviour. Even on a Christian understanding Jesus was completely human, like us in every way apart from sin.

So are all Christians worshipers of Jesus human and divine? If they do not differentiate in their worship between Jesus as God and Jesus as man, then the sin of idolatry is being committed.

Paul said in Romans 1,

because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.

this might be rephrased,

because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature AND the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.

But I fear that idolatry – one of the most serious sins in all of Scripture – is built-in to Christian worship, for the simple reason that worship and divine honour is rendered to Jesus as a human being, a creature of the Creator, without any attempt to focus on God alone.

David Wood said...

"But I fear that idolatry – one of the most serious sins in all of Scripture – is built-in to Christian worship, for the simple reason that worship and divine honour is rendered to Jesus as a human being, a creature of the Creator, without any attempt to focus on God alone."

Said the man who bows down to a pagan temple (pagan practice), fasts during Ramadan (pagan practice), takes the pilgrimage to Mecca (pagan practice), and kisses a black stone (pagan practice).

Yes, if only our worship could be as pure and idolatry-free as Islam's!

minoria said...

Paul,what about the time when Muhammad commanded the Muslims to pray in the direction of the Kaaba in Mecca instead of Jerusalem?As they had done for I think 10 years,praying in the direction of Jerusalem.

Yet the Kaaba had 360 idols in it and was being used for pagan worship.That in itself discredits Muhammad as a true prophet.What is your view on that?In that case you should leave Islam Paul,it is a false religion.Just remain a theist,that is all.

Radical Moderate said...

Paul Said...

"...as he just attacks Islam rather than actually deal with the issues in my article."

The irony, Paul Williams on his own blog runs away from questions. He has run away from several questions refusing to answer, his only response was to call names.

Paul maybe you can answer some questions that have been asked of you on your own blog.

Paul Williams do you believe what the Mu‘tazilah believed as Hamaza Yusef points out that, “God’s attributes had no existence distinguishable from His essence, but rather they emanated from the essence of God: God willed from His essence, and He knew from His essence.”?

Or do you believe in the Sunni Orthodox position that Gods “attributes were in addition to the essence in such a way as to be neither the essence nor other than the essence; “?

Or are u going to throw Hamaza Yusef out the window and under the bus like all your other scholars?

Paul if thats to tuff for you to answer maybe you can answer this question?

Paul can you let us know what image you have of Allah in your mind? I’m sure we would all like to know what Allah looks like.

Paul maybe you can stop running away on your own blog and deal with the issues that your pagan religion brings up?

Ken said...

I have posted a full response to Paul's article there at his article about idolatry; and he deleted 2 of my recent comments (actually 3 now - he turned on moderation) when I asked the question about Hamza Yusef and the Mu'tazilah; and the Sahih Al Bukhari hadiths that you give here, especially about "Allah's Shin"; and about what another Muslim, who goes by "Jesus" called those Ahadith, "Israliyyat Hadith" . (right; blame it on the Jews!)

https://bloggingtheology.wordpress.com/2013/06/04/12694/#comment-13213

Paul said...

Question: Has the collective Christian IQ suddenly crashed in the fetid swap that is American fundamentalism? Does Evangelicalism rot the brain and reduce its adherent’s intelligence to below average?

This must be the case judging by the embarrassingly unintelligent answers I have read by Anthony Rogers and David Wood. To start with Anthony Rogers - who must be having a really bad hair day judging from his long winded and utterly irrelevant rant.

Let me recap my core points and then briefly summarise his response.

Even on a Christian understanding Jesus was completely human, like us in every way apart from sin. Do Christians worship both the human and divine Jesus? If they do not differentiate in their worship between Jesus as God and Jesus as man, then the sin of idolatry is being committed.

As a born again evangelical I never even considered this question. I never heard a single sermon warning me against the terrible sin I was in danger of committing if I inadvertently worshiped Jesus in his humanity, if I did not take pains to focus on Jesus the god alone. Christians I have spoken to about this seem blissfully unaware of the spiritual peril their souls are in by not carefully avoiding the worship of a man.

But I fear that idolatry is built-in to Christian worship, for the simple reason that worship and divine honour is rendered to Jesus as a human being, a creature of the Creator, without any attempt to focus on God alone, and the orthodox teaching of the Council of Chalcedon that though Jesus is god and man - he is one “undivided person”, to be acknowledged in two natures, “inconfusedly, unchangeably, indivisibly, inseparably; not parted or divided into two persons, but one and the same Son” is at the route of the problem.

If this is the case then Christian practice as it is today (not the original religion of Jesus and his disciples, of course) is structurally and irredeemably idolatrous.

Now how did Rogers reply? He commits the logical fallacy of tu quoque. It is a fallacy because he makes no attempt to deal with the subject under discussion. He introduces a long and irrelevant rant against Islam and discusses whether or not God will be seen by Muslims on the last day! Wakey! Wakey! Mr Rogers! Do try and focus and try again.

David Wood also appears to have undergone a lobotomy. His reply? Attack Islam for its alleged pagan practices such as fasting, praying and going on pilgrimage. Wood too commits the logical fallacy of tu quoque. I expected more from someone who allegedly teaches philosophy. Perhaps he has yet to read about elementary logic.

Grade: F-

David Wood said...

Ha! Ha! Paul Williams talking about logic! I went to Speakers' Corner and jumped up on ladders with Jay Smith. We gave a presentation on Allah helping start Christianity by deceiving people into believing that Jesus died on the cross. For half an hour or so, Paul Williams screamed at us about God killing babies, and he refused to address our topic. Paul had such hatred in his eyes as he screamed, he would have fit right into a picture of one of the Islamic cartoon riots!

Is this what Islam does to people, Paul? Does Islam transform a person from "I want to be a scholar" to "I want to scream like a maniac"? Bin Laden would be proud! LOL!

I'm pointing this out because if Paul were on a ladder giving a presentation on, say, the Trinity, it would never cross my mind to scream "Your prophet was a pedophile!" for half an hour. I would instead try to address the topic at hand. But screaming off-topic rants has now become Paul's default mode. I wonder what he'll be like in another five years!

Paul said...

Wood clearly bitter and twisted since our last encounter in London .... and still avoiding the questions. What are you running from Wood?

Ken said...

That was good David!

_________


Paul B. Williams: even Rowan Williams, a fellow Brit, the former Archbishop of Cantebury, refuted your supposed "intellectualism" about early Christianity and your take on Christian history that you think is so superior.

Also, the Brit who goes by "Cranmer" at this blog, as far as I can tell, holds to the Trinity and conservative Christianity and is against racism and hatred, and is against homosexuality and same -sex marriage (rebuking all the other liberal Anglicans), and holds to a conservative traditional standing for public morals and defense of country against Islamic terrorism.

http://archbishop-cranmer.blogspot.com

Also, Chris Green, whom you debated twice, believes what we believe about the canon, the NT, the Trinity, and the Deity of Christ and the first four ecumenical councils, yet he is not an American fundamentalist.

So, you cannot logically use the attack that "American Fundamentalism" has fried the brain.

Rather, Islamic fundamentalism has fried your brain, since Islam and the Qur'an denies real established history(Surah 4:157), was ignorant of the doctrine of the Trinity and the Deity of Christ (5:116; 6:101; 19:88-82); allows husbands to beat their wives(Surah 4:34), calls for all out aggressive war against pagans, Jews, and Christians (Surah 9:5 and 9:28-29) -

any one who is as educated and intelligent as you should reject Islam on those reasons alone.

Radical Moderate said...

@Ken

All I can say is LOL ha ha ha ha.

Sorry to get your comments deleted and get u on Paul's bad side.

Paul said...

lol - Wood commits the logical fallacy of tu quoque AGAIN!

Foolster41 said...

Of course Islam's paganism is completely relevant. Paul says that he converted to Islam from Christianity because Christianity is idolosrois, and so it's perfectly reasonable to show the double standard, since Islam has many pagan practices! It's not tu quo que in the context of rejecting one thing for an element it has when the other thing they accept also has it.

Also, Paul seems to have subscribed to the Nestorian heresy. , and is either unable or unwilling to understand that Jesus is both fully God and fully man. Of course a warning about worshiping Jesus would be bizarre for any person who understands the trinity to make, and so he never heard such a sermon. Jesus is the human incarnation aspect of the trinity, (three aspects of one) NOT tritheism (three separate Gods forming a unity).

http://answering-islam.org/Shamoun/quran_trinity.htm

David Wood said...

Paul,

I hate to go off topic here, but why did your prophet molest a little girl?

Come on, tell me. TELL ME! I can't address any other topics until we deal with this one. Out of all the females your prophet could have molested (older women, sex slaves, etc.), why the little girl?

We want to know Paul. Why he climb on top of a little girl and insert his penis into her as she cried? Do I have to yell it?

WHY DID YOUR PROPHET RAPE A PREPUBESCENT GIRL, PAUL???

WHY? WHY? WHY? WHY? WHY? WHY? WHY? WHY? WHY?

LOL! That was my best impersonation of Paul's mentality at our last encounter in London. I predict amazing things from Paul in the future, if he continues his transformation from the caterpillar of scholarship to the butterfly of Islamic extremism!

Radical Moderate said...

Paul Why did your GOD KILL BABIES, and INNOCENT TREES, AND INNOCENT CHIKENS, AND INNOCENT COWS.

WHY PAUL OH WHY DID YOUR GOD ORDER THE BABYLONIANS TO DO THAT.

AND PAUL WHY IS YOUR GOD GOING TO COMMAND JESUS TO KILL INNOCENT PIGS WHAT DID ALL THE INNOCENT PIGS DO TO DESERVE ISLAMIC GENOCIDE.

David Wood said...

Yeah Paul, WWWWWWWWHHHHHHHHHHHYYYYYYYYYYYYY????????

Radical Moderate said...

Whats funny people is that Paul Williams is now billing himself as a "Theologian" even though in his own words he has no credentials to do so.

David do you have video of Paul Williams foaming at the mouth with total rage in his eyes. I think that would be interesting to see. A compassion of what a few years of Islam does to someone.

Paul said...

Wood - you need medical help!

Paul said...

As I said before:

Wood is clearly bitter and twisted since our last encounter in London .... and still avoiding the questions.

What are you running from Wood?

jonnykzj said...

@Paul

Hi there. I just want to let you know first that I'm an Ex-Muslim. It seems you forgot to check the following Hadith which bro David brought up. So here it is again:
"...Then (ALLAH) the Lord of the worlds WILL COME T THEM IN A SHAPE TO THE PICTURE THEY HAD IN THEIR MINDS ABOUT HIM. It will be said, 'What are you waiting for?' Every nation have followed what they used to worship.' They will reply, 'We left the people in the world when we were in great need of them and we did not take them as friends. Now we are waiting for our Lord Whom we used to worship.' Allah will say, 'I am your Lord.' They will say twice or thrice, 'We do not worship any besides Allah.' " (Bukhari, 6.60.105)

SO this cannot be an excuse for you to become Muslim. ALSO you will find that their are many absurd things in islam which Muslims hide, especially from new converts.
NOW addressing your point of Jesus's human and Divine nature. You say since the human natureis created, hence we're worshipping a creature along with God. THE MISTAKE you're making here is WORSHIP ALWAYS HAS A CENTER OF CONSCIOUSNESS AS IT'S TARGET OBJECT, NOT THE NATURE. And as you know Christ had ONLY ONE CENTER OF CONSCIENCE WHICH IS DIVINE IN ORIGIN. Another example. If one of the Person's in the Godhead took on the form of a tree, one would by bowing down to that tree in worship, not be worshipping the treelike nature BUT THE CENTER OF CONSCIOUSNESS which is ONE OF THE PERSONS OF THE GODHEAD.

Radical Moderate said...

Paul Williams reminds me of a funny story I once heard.

A woman walked into her priests office to inform him that she was no longer a catholic.

The priest responded "Great your someone else's problem".

For some reason I have a feeling that was the reaction from Paul Williams church when he "left" Christ.

Foolster41 said...

@Paul: Perhaps you'd like to actually address people's arguments rather than using ad honim attacks, like attacking their mental health, or straw man arguments attacking what Christianity doesn't teach? I already pointed out how it is not tu quo que (you claim to reject Christianity because of its idolotry (based on a very flawed concept of what Christianity teaches), but accept Islam (which also contains elements of idolotry). This is hypocritical!

Christianity teaches that Jesus is fully God and fully man, and thus worthy of worship. To say because he is partially man, and therefore not worthy of worship is Nestorian heresy.

Ken said...

Paul Bilal Williams just wrote a few minutes ago that he will debate Sam Shamoun.

http://apologeticsandagape.wordpress.com/2013/05/31/earliest-islamic-biographer-of-muhammads-life-affirms-that-john-the-apostle-of-jesus-and-eyewitness-of-the-crucifixion-and-resurrection-was-the-human-writer-of-the-fourth-gospel/#comment-363

I hope that becomes a reality.

David Wood said...

Since Paul now seems to be on the road to extremism, I'm surprised he's willing to debate at all. (He tries to shut down dialogue at Speakers' Corner, rather than participate.)

If they debate, I'm guessing Paul will start screaming.

rowland said...

I see that the main problem here with paul is the trinity especially concerning the second person.

@paul: Jesus isn't a messenger. Jesus is ONE with GOD. GOD from GOD. LIGHT from LIGHT. BEGOTEN NOT MADE.

The muslim mentality of separating Jesus from God is where your problem lie.

The Niceanian Creed AD 325.

325 Nicene Creed. We believe in one God,
the Father Almighty, Maker of all things visible
and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus
Christ , the Son of God, begotten of the
Father [the only-begotten; that is, of the
essence of the Father, GOD of GOD], LIGHT of
LIGHT, VERY God of VERY God, begotten, not
made, being of ONE substance
(homoousion)with the Father; BY WHOM ALL
things were made [both in heaven and on
earth]; who for us men, and for our salvation,
CAME DOWN and was incarnate and was made
man; he suffered, and the third day he rose
again, ascended into heaven; from thence he
shall come to judge the quick and the dead.........

And the constantinople creed AD 381

381 Constantinopolitan Creed. And in one
Lord Jesus Christ , the only-begotten Son of
God, begotten of the Father before all worlds
(æons), Light of Light, very God of very God,
begotten, NOT MADE, being of one substance
with the Father; by whom all things were
made; WHO FOR US MEN, AND FOR OUR SALVATION came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary, and was made man; he was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered, and was buried, and the third day he rose again, according to the Scriptures, and ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father; from thence he shall come again, with glory, to judge the quick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end.

This is the core of Christian belief. Christ is inseparable from God and God is inseparable from Christ. He only came down to earth Because of US MEN And for OUR salvation. John 3:16.

I know its hard for muslims to comprehend this. Because they believe that for God to have a son, he must have a wife ( they do not see the way they diminish God with this mentality ), but for you who was a christian to go from believing God "The" supreme being and diminish him to someone "who must have a wife before he can have a son????



rowland said...

@Paul now wrote.

"Paul said in Romans 1,
because they exchanged the truth
about God for a lie and worshiped
and served the creature rather than
the Creator, who is blessed forever!
Amen.
this might be rephrased,
because they exchanged the truth
about God for a lie and worshiped
and served the creature AND the
Creator, who is blessed forever!
Amen."

You quote Romans 1vs 23.

This will only work, if Jesus was CREATED. But he wasn't even your quran knows he wasn't created.

A muslim used this trick on me once. Quoting that verse out of context to prove his point. I think he picked it up from Dr Zakir Naik.

Gazza Sloane said...

If this is true please accept Sam

Radical Moderate said...

Rowland wrote...

"I see that the main problem here with paul is the trinity especially concerning the second person. "

No thats not the main problem, Paul's main problems are very deep and personal. He has issues.

Radical Moderate said...

Paul Williams debate Sam Shamoun that would be a great show.

I wonder if Paul Williams would also debate Anthony Rogers.

Hazakim1 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Sam said...

Ken, you don't understand what Williams means since he is insulting and belittling me again. He said he will only debate me when I get a doctor's note certifying that I am mentally stable to debate, otherwise he will not debate me. So he is mocking me since he knows better than to actually debate me for real.

David Wood said...

SAM: ". . . And that, ladies and gentlemen, concludes my seven point argument for the deity of Christ. I look forward to hearing my opponent's response."

PAUL: "Well, uh, why does God kill babies? Huh? I know it's not the topic. But, uh, wait a minute. How come I can't block Sam like I usually block people on my blog? You mean blocking doesn't work in real life? Oh dear. Uh, I'm a scholar everyone. See, I have a British voice. Pay no attention to my arguments, which are the worst you've ever heard. Just listen to the British in my voice. Sam's the crazy one here. David needs mental health treatment. Darn, I can't think of any more ad hominems. But I'm the logical one. Uh . . . uh . . . So why does God kill babies?

Radical Moderate said...

Sam

I'm sure we can find a psychologist and psychitrists that will certify you as sane and able to debate. So you can completely destroy and embarrass Paul Williams for the fool's fool he is.

Hazakim1 said...

Paul...another self hating white liberal European convert to Islam who makes rediculous claims and bogus offers of formal debate.

Hazakim1 said...

This Paul is clearly numbered among the losers. The Tanach of the God of Israel made it clear beforehand that the Messiah would be a divine figure who would be "high and exalted" (a phrase used only of deity), and who, as the Son of Man riding on the clouds (another Divine ability), would recieve the worship and adoration of the nations -and His Kingdom will be without end (Isaiah 9:6) as the Mighty God and Father of Eternity....yet Paul sides with a johnny-come-later arab bedouin with no miracles, no prophecies, and no understanding of the Hebrew & Greek Scriptures...Yet we need to learn from him? Paleeez.

Paul has a problem with the God of Abraham and thinks His way (and Muhammad's way) is better. How dare God establish His Divine Word in bodily form as King and Messiah over all creation? That's not the way Muhammad and Paul think it should be!!!

Paul sir... God's chuckles at you and His wrath will surely be poured out upon you without admixture. Repent & believe the Gospel.

Radical Moderate said...

David Wood

That was to funny, I sense another video coming soon lol.

Anthony Rogers said...

Hi Paul,

Sorry I have been out all day and couldn't join in on all the fun until now. If you are not still sleeping at the wheel of your studies or too busy imagining your deity, I wonder if you wouldn't mind joining me over here for a little session.

aaron said...

obviously Paul needs to know what parallel reasoning is too

minoria said...

Here is an answer to Paul William and his question about God ordering the death of children.

It is in French and treats about other ideas also.It can be translated using Google Translate:

http://translate.google.com/

"Pourquoi Dieu avait decidé l’Extermination Totale des Cananeens"

http://www.avraidire.com/2011/09/le-pourquoi-dieu-avait-decide-lextermination-totale-des-cananeens/

I remember a question Paul Williams posed in the debate with Nabeel Qureshi about the Olivet prophecy by Jesus and the second coming,the "this generation" prophecy.So here is the answer,and the article has looks to more details:

"Le Jesus Historique a-t-il dit une Fausse Prophetie sur la Date de sa Seconde Venue?"

http://www.avraidire.com/2012/07/le-jesus-historique-a-t-il-dit-une-fausse-prophetie-sur-la-date-de-sa-seconde-venue/

ABOUT SHABIR ALLY

I recently heard a debate between him and Tony Costa and Shabir cited Robert Price as a non-Muslim scholar who thought the swoon theory to be a real possibility.

Hmmm,the problem is that Robert Price has really lost all scholarly value:

1.He now supports the ideas of Miss Murdock/Acharya.Look her up,no serious scholar accepts her arguments.

2.He says ALL the 4 gospels were written around 150 or later.However,according to Daniel Wallace,one of the best NT experts,they have recently found a fragment of Mark that is 1ST CENTURY.

3.Price says Jesus never existed.

4.He was speaking favorably of RENE SALM,a man who wrote a book in 2009 I think,with "evidence" that Nazareth didnt exist in the 1st century,yet professor Ken Dark examined it and rejected it utterly.
Here is an article by BART EHRMAN who also rejects Rene Salm's ideas,he says:

"In my post yesterday I began to explain why René Salm’s claim that Nazareth did not exist in the days of Jesus is dead wrong and is rejected by every recognized authority – whether archaeologist, textual scholar, or historian; whether Jewish, Christian, agnostic, or other . Here is my second and final post on the subject, again, with apologies to those who have read it already, lifted from my treatment in Did Jesus Exist?"

SOurce:

http://ehrmanblog.org/rene-salm-at-the-sbl-2/

And why didnt Price,as a scholar,first WAIT and see what experts would conclude about Rene Salm before using him as "evidence" ?

John said...

@David wood
"Pay no attention to my arguments, which are the worst you've ever heard. Just listen to the British in my voice. "

I didn't realise Yanks still pay deference to us Brits' interleckt.

Ha ha - suckers!

bob said...

Paul,

"this might be rephrased" (?)

You can't just 'rephrase' scripture to support your argument.

Romans 1:25 refers to idolatry, which is defined throughout Scripture as putting anything that is in and part of God’s creation, above and before God. That is, to hold something in greater affection and higher esteem than that in which we hold the Creator.

"and worshipped and served the creature rather than the Creator" Romans 1:25

This includes work, studies, sport, music, art, nature, science, technology, ideas, theories, family (Matthew 10:37), friends, relationships, self (humanism), money, houses, lands, investments, businesses, possessions, politics, culture, country, traditions and history... anything and everything that is part of the creation becomes an idol or a ‘god’ when it is held in higher regard and given more attention than the Creator.

As far as worshiping God goes, anything outside of Christ is idolatry, since Jesus is the Creator (John 1:1-14; 1Timothy 3:16).

The following verse describes the error that you are making in your interpretation of the Scriptures.

"...as also in his [the apostle Paul] epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which those who are untaught and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures." 2Peter 3:16

goethechosemercy said...

Quote:
But I fear that idolatry is built-in to Christian worship, for the simple reason that worship and divine honour is rendered to Jesus as a human being, a creature of the Creator, without any attempt to focus on God alone, and the orthodox teaching of the Council of Chalcedon that though Jesus is god and man - he is one “undivided person”, to be acknowledged in two natures, “inconfusedly, unchangeably, indivisibly, inseparably; not parted or divided into two persons, but one and the same Son” is at the route of the problem.
end

Do not argue dogma with Christians.
It is foolish. There are questions in our faith that are not argued, they are dogma and accepted as given.
You claim to respect Jesus and then you persecute and torment his followers.
You claim a Western heritage and do not even know how to write the language correctly.
Why didn't you write your post in Arabic, since that seems to be your most comfortable language?
You consider our faith to be profane.
There is nothing more to you or your thought, everything circles back in that direction, and I'm not interested in taking the trip.

David Wood said...

John said: "I didn't realise Yanks still pay deference to us Brits' interleckt."

Yes, British people automatically sound more scholarly to us.

David Wood said...

Until they start screaming like maniacs, and we realize we've been had!

Nakdimon said...

//Ken, you don't understand what Williams means since he is insulting and belittling me again. He said he will only debate me when I get a doctor's note certifying that I am mentally stable to debate, otherwise he will not debate me. So he is mocking me since he knows better than to actually debate me for real. //

SAM, I would, just for the hell of it, go to the psych's office, get that paper and hold it to Paul William's face and go "NOW DEBATE ME!". I know he would still refuse, but just to make the point!

LOL. I really would!

Nakdimon said...

//Paul Williams reminds me of a funny story I once heard.

A woman walked into her priests office to inform him that she was no longer a catholic.

The priest responded "Great your someone else's problem".

For some reason I have a feeling that was the reaction from Paul Williams church when he "left" Christ.//

Rad, HAHAHAHHAHA! I would say that was exactly what happened...