Tuesday, October 2, 2012

RoyalSon vs. Nadir Ahmed: "Are Muslims on the True Path?"

I'm wondering when Muslims are going to have an intervention for Nadir. "Nadir," they'll say, "We love you, because you're our Muslim brother. But we want you to stop debating. Our beloved religion is the laughingstock of the internet right now because of your attempts to defend it. Please don't embarrass us anymore."

But that won't happen. Instead, Nadir will do what he always does: He'll run around to anyone who will listen, claiming victory, in a desperate attempt to convince people who haven't actually watched the debate that he is a force to be reckoned with. Then he'll claim that everyone is running from him because they're scared to face him. What a sad, lonely world Nadir lives in.


Radical Moderate said...

Nadir himself says in this "debate",

"I'm not a very good debater" LOL

giftminders said...

Surah 3. Al-Imran 7. He it is Who hath revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture wherein are clear revelations. They are the substance of the Book. and others (which are) allegorical. But those in whose hearts is doubt pursue, forsooth, that which is allegorical seeking (to cause) dissension by seeking to explain it. None knoweth its explanation save Allah. And those who are of sound instruction say: We believe therein; the whole is from our Lord; but only men of understanding really heed.

CLEAR REVELATION? Then what does "Surah 3. Al-Imran 1. Alif. Lam. Mim" mean?

Nadir is annihilated! Whoa!

Royal Son said...

Hi David, thank you for posting the debate up here. I asked Nadir if he would post the debate on his site but he said no, because he thought noone would benefit from it.

Just a few points regarding the debate itself:

On the point about dreams, Nadir claimed that Muhammad's encounter with Jibreel at the Cave at Hira was a live encounter and not a dream. There are some additional references I did not give which prove that the encounter was a dream and not live:

Bukhari vol6, book 60, number 479.
Narrated by Aisha

The commencement of the Divine Inspiration to Allah's Apostle was in the form of true dreams. The Angel came to him and said, "Read, in the Name of your Lord Who has created (all that exists), has created man a clot. Read! And your Lord is Most Generous" ..(96.1,2,3)

Bukhari vol6, book 60, number 480.

Narrated by 'Aisha

The commencement of (the Divine Inspirations to) Allah's Apostle was in the form of true dreams. The Angel came to him and said, "Read! In the Name of your Lord Who has created all exists), has created man from a clot. Read! And your Lord is Most Generous, Who has taught (the writing) by the pen (the first person to write was Prophet Idris. (96.1-4)

Sirah Ibn Ishaq, page 105-106,

Every year the apostle of Allah spent a month praying at Hira and fed the poor whocame to him; and when he returned to Mecca he walked round the Kaba seven or more times, as it pleased Allah, before entering his own house. In the month of Ramadan, in the year when Allah designed to bestow grace upon him, the apostle of Allah went to Hira as usual, and his family accompanied him. In the night the angel Gabriel came with the command of Allah. The apostle of Allah later said, 'He came while I was asleep, with a cloth of brocade whereon there was writing, and he said,"Read." I replied, "I cannot read it." Then he pressed the cloth on me till I thought I was dying; he released his hold and said, "Read." I replied, "I cannot read it." And he pressed me again with it, till I thought I was dying. Then he loosed his hold of me and said, "Read." I replied, "I cannot read it." Once more he pressed me and said, "Read."Then I asked, "What shall I read?" And I said this because I feared he would press me again. Then he said, "Read in the name of the Lord thy creator; who created man from a drop of blood. Read, thy Lord is the most bountiful, who taught by means of the pen, taught man what he knew not." Accordingly I read these words, and he had finished his task and departed from me. I awoke from my sleep, and felt as if words had been graven on my heart.'

Sirah Ibn Hisham, page 92.

When it was the
night on which Allah honoured him with his mission and showed mercy on His servants
thereby, Gabriel brought him the command of Allah. 'He came to me,' said the apostle of
Allah, 'while I was asleep, with a coverlet of brocade whereon was some writing, and
said, "Read!" I said, "Waht shall I read?" He pressed me with it so tightly that I thought
it was death; then he let me go and said "Read!" I said, "What shall I read?" He pressed
me with it again so that I thought it was death then he let me go and said "Read ! I said
,"What shall I read ?" He pressed me with it the third time so that I thought it was death
and said "Read!" I said, "What then shall I read?"-and this I said only to deliver myself
from him, lest he should do the same to me again. He said:
"Read in the name of the Lord who created,
Who created and of blood coagulated.
Read! They Lord is the most beneficent,
Who taught by the pen,
Taught that which they knew not unto men." (Sura 96.1-5.)
So I read it, and he departed from me. And I awoke from my sleep, and it was as though these words were written on my heart.

Royal Son said...

And here is the hadith in which Mohammad gave the criteria of what is from God and what is from Satan:

Volume 9, Book 87, Number 114 :
Narrated by Abu Sa'id Al-Khudri

The Prophet said, "If anyone of you sees a dream that he likes, then it is from Allah, and he should thank Allah for it and narrate it to others; but if he sees something else, i.e., a dream that he dislikes, then it is from Satan, and he should seek refuge with Allah from its evil, and he should not mention it to anybody, for it will not harm him."

We know that Muhammad didn't like his dream, thought he was demon possessed, thought something terrible was going to harm him and his neck muscles were twitching with terror. We can conclude therefore by Muhammad's own criteria that his dream - initial revelation was from Satan.

Interestingly, if someone has a dream they like, then it's supposedly from Allah. So what does that say about lustful dreams that people may have ? What if Terry Jones has a dream about burning the Qur'an? I guess it must be from Allah!

IZAKDAVID13 said...

You can judge if your religion is from satan in regards to how you treat the women and children of your enemy?
(..at approx 12:20)

Really Nadir?

I can't believe that he actually said that in a debate thinking that Islam and Mohammad were gracious towards their enemies women.

Nadir is the classic dodge the question type debater. It is like playing chess with a pigeon. The pigeon will knock over all the pieces, poop on the board and then strut around like he is victorious.

God bless.


Baron Eddie said...

I stopped listening to the debate as soon as Nadir said that Saint Paul is
a false prophet! Your mouth shall be shut ...

Nadir does not know that Islamic books full of good words about apostle Paul,
and admit apostle Paul as Jesus(God)'s apostle and he did miracles and it
does not say that he is a false prophet.

I just watched the 2nd episode about all the references in Islamic books.

It is in Arabic I may add but Mr. Waheed shows the references by books and pages

Part One

Part Two

Also Nadir lost in the debate as soon as he started with personal attack.

Witness said...

Well the reason Muslims will not be doing an intervention on Nadir is they have no idea who he is. If I were to ask the Muslims in my office or in my circle of friends what they thought of Nadir Ahmed of Examine the Truth (insert joke here), their response would be "who???" Although Nadir thinks of himself as a top tier Muslim debater, he's a nobody.

I am going to start listening to this debate. Hopefully it will be as funny the James White debate.

Nadir- thanks for your willingness to participate in a debate on that sketchy looking website. It is not as prestigious as your usual venues such as the Oxford Union or the Doha Debates, which demonstrate your committement to reach all audiences,

Walter said...

Nadir is an interesting sort. He's even messaged me before on YouTube after seeing a comment I made on an Acts17Apologetics video.

It contained all these strange claims about shut down and refuted. The only time I think I've ever not seen Nadir textually corrected is when he's on one of his absurd novel debate gimmicks. Acid tests, 'prophecies' being fulfilled as reactions to Muslims blowing themselves up, etc. In the words of Wolfgang Pauli, "This isn't right. This isn't even wrong."

While Nadir doesn't have much influence, it is interesting how many Muslim debaters have begun using the phrase acid test. Maybe there is another Muslim source producing this language artifact, but the earliest example of it I have heard was from him.

TAREK said...

Dear Dr. David thank you all the great work you are performing in order to let us see the light.
Well done Royal Son and MAY THE PERFECT LIGHT OF OUR LORD JESUS SHINE ON you and your family always.
Once more well done.
As for Nadir Ahmed I'll pass any comment. But all i will say is for Us the followers of JESUS to pray for him, because listening this man speaking one can hear from his voice confusion, taquyya and so on. So please brethren pray for Nadir Ahmed he is lost.


Haecceitas said...

Don't be too hard on Nadir even though he gets annihilated in just about every debate. What he's doing is actually a brilliant spiritualized application of this saying of Muhammad from Sahih al-Bukhari:

“By Him in Whose Hands my soul is! I would love to be martyred in Allah’s Cause and then come back to life and then get martyred, and then come back to life again and then get martyred and then come back to life again and then get martyred.”

David Wood said...


Royal Son said...

Another point of the debate was regarding the historicity of Jesus. Now while this might not have come across as clearly as originally intended, I wish to clarify why I brought this matter up in the debate.

Basically, according to the Qur'an, the followers of Jesus were made to prevail against the disbelievers until the day of resurrection. Since we are told that Jesus was a Muslim and his followers were Muslims, such people would be an example according to the Muslim position of those who were on the true path.

Since this group was "prevailing", we ought to see them in history. But unfortunately, the only groups of people that can be traced historically back to Jesus and His followers believed the same as Christians today and against the teachings of Islam. This would demonstrate clearly that Christians are on the true path and not Muslims.

Now I must give credit where credit is due. It was actually a Muslim on Paltalk who inspired me to come up with this argument. He originally asked my good friend and brother in Christ, Radical Moderate "Can you show me 12 Holy Spirit inspired authors from the 2nd and 3rd century?"

In response to his misconception about inspiration, the canon, the nature of scripture and so on, I proceeded to not only give the names of 12 people from this time period who wrote about Christ, confirming the basic teachings about Christ that we believe in today, but I turned the question back upon him: "Can you Muslims show us not twelve, not five, not even three, but just a SINGLE person in history before Mohammad (over five centuries) who taught the same Christ that you Muslims believe in who was:

1. Messiah
2. Born of a virgin
3. Not crucified
4. Not Son of God
5. Not God manifested in the flesh
6. A true prophet of God?

To this day I have not received a single worthy response from any Muslims. The closest thing I got was Ijaz Ahmed from the Calling Christians website who stated it was either the Ebionites or the Essenes, but he couldn't make up his mind which. Unfortunately for him, the sources he appealed to crushed his arguments.

Notice the difference here: A muslim asks for TWELVE writers from the 2nd and 3rd centuries, and I simply ask for a SINGLE writer in the entire FIVE centuries before Mohammad. While we can most certainly demonstrate the writings of the faithful followers of Jesus Christ from the first century up until this very day, Muslims cannot even scrape together a single person or group of people who made up this prevailing group that the Qur'an speaks of.

So just to summarize, Christians are on the true path, not the Muslims, because the prevailing group of people today are the Christians, and our teachings of Jesus can be traced back to the times of His followers in the first century.

And sorry Nadir, history is NOT something that we can put on the back burner!

Truth said...

ha ha ha ha........... this Nadir Ahmed is so cute. he is a cute little 6 years old boy like Aysha. I saw how brother Sam Shamoun ****** him in debate"is islam religion of peace". I have the video. and in this present debate he says Bible is demonic book. Jesus is demoninc. st Paul's vision was demonic. That was not Jesus who spoke to Paul. It was satan. in Isaiah God commands people to rape" but I(nadir)am not against Isaiah". Nadir, if you are not agains Isiah, then why are you calling him demonic? ha ha... And if he is demonic, and you are a good boy, why are you not against Isiah? ha ha ha ha..... and if Bible is demonic and allah is not demon, then why is allah commanding muhammad to consult Bible(the demonic book according to you)in Quran 10:94? and why do u muslims try to find muhammad's name in Bible(the demonic book)? Quran 7:157 says we(jews and christians)find muhammad's name in Torah and injil. but you muslims try to show song of solomon 6:15 or may be 5:16(my Bible is in almira, i will see later whether 5:16 or 6:15) which is neither Torah nor injil. ha ha ha ha........ u muslims believe( blindly )that muhammad's name is in Bible. but nobody can see. maybe that is printed by white ink. ha ha ha ha...... and if Bible is demonic book and muhammad is not demon, what is his name doing in Bible? ha ha ha ha....... and now if u try to say Bible is not demonic, then whenever Quran says against Bible, Quran becomes demonic. Nadir, you have so much beard but no hair. i think you should shave your beard and put that at your head. sunrays are making your head hot so u cannot think properly and more u say more you go deeper in your own trap. just like your prophet. you are so cute. we all friends are laughing here at my home.
ha ha ha ha............

Truth said...

Nadir said Jesus commanded rape in OT. really? what about Deuteronomy 5:22, what about Matthew 5:27-28 and Ephesians chapter 5 ?

Royal Son said...

Oh my, Nadir has finally chimed in:

Nadir said:
I have personally challenged David Wood and Sam Shamoun to debate this topic, but they ran away from this challenge... because they know what evil the Bible teaches.

ExamineTheTruth 1 hour ago

once the men have been defeated, how do you treat women of the enemy according to the Biblical Christianity and Islam? <-- with Biblical Christianity... the nitemare has just begun for these defenseless women and children.... Islam comes 600 years later and tackles the SAME question..and present a much better way - be nice to them, educate them, and never violate them in anyway. This proves Islam is of God, and the Bible has been corrupted.

ExamineTheTruth 1 hour ago

My Response:
Brother David, are you a prophet? lol

West African said...

It seems to me that Nadir thinks if he insults enough he can actually win the arguments, amazing.

Royal Son said...

Jhamel: Nadir had to insult because he had nothing else left in the tank. He ran out of gas before he turned the key.

Search 4 Truth said...

I have debated Nadir on youtube. He finally stopped when he had no way to deflect anymore. He said he was a salifist so I used the first three caliphaets as evidence. And he just blocked me.

Nadir suffers from the Dunning Kruger effect.

The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which unskilled individuals suffer from illusory superiority, mistakenly rating their ability much higher than average. This bias is attributed to a metacognitive inability of the unskilled to recognize their mistakes