Monday, February 6, 2012

Kangaroo Again Condemns Muhammad

Wow. Kangaroo can't seem to say anything without attacking his prophet. In response to my last post, he writes:

Constantly spreading misinformation about them, lying, and constantly deceiving their followers and your own followers about what their religion teaches.

Constantly deceiving people about what other religions teach?

Kim agrees with Kangaroo that misinforming people about a religion is wrong. She writes:

If David Wood was a full time Prophet I wouldnt have a problem... but hes not.. and he misinforms people about Islam as any Islamophobe would do.

Hmmm. What is the doctrine of the Trinity, according to Muhammad?

Qur'an 5:116--And when Allah will say: O Isa son of Marium! did you say to men, Take me and my mother for two gods besides Allah he will say: Glory be to Thee, it did not befit me that I should say what I had no right to (say); if I had said it, Thou wouldst indeed have known it; Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I do not know what is in Thy mind, surely Thou art the great Knower of the unseen things.

So the Trinity is made up of God, Jesus, and Mary, and they're three separate gods? That's what Muslims believe Christianity teaches, because their prophet led them astray.

And how about this gem:

Qur'an 9:30--And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah. That is their saying with their mouths. They imitate the saying of those who disbelieved of old. Allah (Himself) fighteth against them. How perverse are they!

So Jews call Ezra "the son of Allah"? All right, Kangaroo. Please give us a few historical examples of Jews calling Ezra the son of Allah. If you can't, then isn't it obvious that Muhammad misrepresented Jewish beliefs?

Here's the amazing thing. Kangaroo's prophet said false things about Christianity and Judaism. Kangaroo will simply justify the claims. But if I tell Muslims, "The Qur'an hasn't been perfectly preserved. Here, let me quote you several passages from your own sources declaring quite plainly that the Qur'an hasn't been perfectly preserved," Kangaroo calls me a deceiver.

So a deceiver is someone who points out clear quotations from Muslim sources. An honest person is someone who believes the Qur'an has been perfectly preserved, despite the fact that it hasn't.

Welcome to Islam.

103 comments:

David Wood said...

Kangaroo and Kim, you claim that I'm deceiving people if I say that the Qur'an hasn't been perfectly preserved. There's only one way to settle this. Let's go to the passages I'll be quoting. I'll start with an easy one.

Sahih Muslim 2286—Abu Musa al-Ash’ari sent for the reciters of Basra. They came to him and they were three hundred in number. They recited the Qur’an and he said: You are the best among the inhabitants of Basra, for you are the reciters among them. So continue to recite it. (But bear in mind) that your reciting for a long time may not harden your hearts as were hardened the hearts of those before you. We used to recite a surah which resembled in length and severity to (Surah) Bara’at. I have, however, forgotten it with the exception of this which I remember out of it: “If there were two valleys full of riches, for the son of Adam, he would long for a third valley, and nothing would fill the stomach of the son of Adam but dust.” And we used to recite a surah which resembled one of the surahs of Musabbihat, and I have forgotten it . . .

Here Abu Musa tells the reciters of Basra to keep reciting the Qur'an, lest they forget it, the way he forgot two chapters of the Qur'an. He goes on to quote the only verse he remembers from one of the chapters. The verse isn't in the Qur'an today. Clearly, he's referring to two lost chapters.

Has the Qur'an been perfectly preserved, when entire chapters were forgotten?

Andish said...

Something tells me kangaroo and kim are just troll Muslims.

Zack_Tiang said...

Preach it, brother!

Hezekiah Ahaz said...

I wonder if those lost chapters foretold Santa Clause hey you never know.


But this surah here it's interesting:

(5:116) And imagine when thereafter Allah will say: 'Jesus, son of Mary, did you say to people: "Take me and my mother for gods beside Allah?" *130 and he will answer: "Glory to You! It was not for me to say what I had no right to. Had I said so, You would surely have known it. You know all what is within my mind whereas I do not know what is within Yours. You, indeed You, know fully all that is beyond the reach of human perception.




I could only imagine what the prophet(peace be upon him) was on when he made this up.




But it can't be Jesus is God!!!!

Is true that God doesnt know what God is thinking?

RyanS said...

Most Muslims cannot even comprehend their Koran, When one converts to Islam does something happen to the brain? like the destruction of cognitive ablities?

David Wood said...

Hmm. Kangaroo and Kim were cranking out replies, until I gave them a simple passage to explain. Somehow, I'm a deceiver because I tell people what the passage says. I'm waiting for Honest Kangaroo and Honest Kim to tell us what it really means.

Traeh said...

Sometimes I wonder if religious Muslims really care at all whether or not Islam is true. Sometimes it seems like for them, the "truth" is whatever lets Islam come closer to dominating the world as a religious-totalitarian governing system. In that case "submission" to Islam is all that really matters. Truth-seeking and independent inquiry are punished to the point of silence and death.

Muslims don't usually in an explicitly conscious way affirm that truth is irrelevant. After all, they -- or many of them -- learned at a very young age, in many indirect ways, the irrelevance of truth. That message came to them in a largely tacit fashion, implicit in a million details of how people behaved and reacted, more than in what was made explicit in words, though there was explicitness too.

Into the very root of the human being in infancy is implanted the behavior of disregarding and rejecting essential and large portions of the truth, and assuming that all that matters is unquestioned submission to Islam, closing ranks in the collective of the umma, and supporting its leadership and the Qur'an and traditions.

Perhaps Islam was always really all about Islam winning, even at the cost of truth, and perhaps Islam has always subtly and not-subtly inculcated Muslims with that tragically mutilated instinct. So some of them don't really care if Islam isn't true, even when they start to see it. Islamic apologists of that sort are sophists in the pure sense: people who do not care about which side of an argument is true, only about techniques for winning the argument. Or, to be more precise, Muslims confuse winning with truth. That is not quite pure sophism. Pure sophism is perhaps more cynical and yet less corrupt.

Too many Muslims barely if at all even begin to know how to seriously ask themselves with complete openness whether their own religion is true. The inhibitions on such an open state of inquiry are substantial and have penetrated deeply into many Muslim peoples.

"Submission" is so unlimited in Islam that it is even called for contrary to reason, so much so that many Muslims' reason seems to be nipped in the bud from the beginning, so that there is no growth of consequential reasoning about their own religion and everything to which their religion applies -- which means most things.

Submission to long-ago-learned and constantly reinforced boundaries on questioning kicks in repeatedly and constantly aborts the questioning process so that large parts of the Muslim mind frequently become desert, where sprouts of independent thought get relatively little water and are pruned to death, burned, uprooted, have acid thrown on them, are imprisoned, etc.

Kim said...

There were Jews and Christians pf that time that believes that. Ofc a bigoted layman wouldnt want to know.

http://www.call-to-monotheism.com/rebuttal_to_samuel_green_s_article__muhammad_s_perfect_memory___

simple_truth said...

Andish said...

"
Something tells me kangaroo and kim are just troll Muslims.
"
Of course they are. Any serious person would have integrated into discussion by now. These dolts (notice the name calling) are not serious or they are so delusional that they can't use their brains effectively any more.

simple_truth said...

RyanS said...

"
Most Muslims cannot even comprehend their Koran, When one converts to Islam does something happen to the brain? like the destruction of cognitive ablities?
"

Accepting Islam forces one to conform to a set standards for life. They don't need to think too deeply since every aspect of life has already been determined for them by the precedents set out by the early scholarship--namely from Mohammad to the first 4 presumably rightly-guided caliphs. Anything interpreted within that period glues a Muslim into a mold that they can't realistically escape. If they try to escape, they must reinvent Islam in the fashion of a more modern relativistic views which void most of Mohammad's teachings.

Islam, by default, forces a Muslim to change their thinking to fit a 7th century demigod. They (those in Islamic dominated lands) can't realisticaly think freely like most people in more open societies, which I think is the case for Kangaroo, Osama, and Kim. They stand zero chance of being able to voice their more liberal form of Islam in those dominated areas. I would like to see them try and have their heads handed to them. Perhaps that would be the only way to wake them up to the reality of the true Islam.

David Wood said...

Kim said: "There were Jews and Christians pf that time that believes that."

No, there weren't. You're just saying that because you believe Muhammad must have been right. But Muhammad simply had no clue what he was talking about.

Both the doctrine of the Trinity and Jewish belief had been well-defined for centuries prior to Muhammad. Now give us some historical examples of (1) Christians who believed in a Trinity made up of God, Jesus, and Mary, and (2) Jews who believed Ezra was the Son of God. If you can't, then we must conclude that your prophet misrepresented both Christian and Jewish belief.

RyanS said...

Kim Says:

"There were Jews and Christians pf that time that believes that. Ofc a bigoted layman wouldnt want to know."

Kim first of all, Christian and Jewish doctrine comes from the BIBLE not hearsay! Had Muhamand simply read the Bible none of these stupid claims would have been said. But instead of actually studying the Bible (Most muslims fail to do anyways) He invented lies and stories to DECEIVE!

Kim your prophet is a Liar, he claimed untrue things and you cannot escape that simple fact if you have any honesty left.

Derek Adams said...

Well Kangaroo and Kim aren't much to interact with.

Kangaroo's idea of a response is to paste two short clips of Badawi and Ally providing no proof for their claims, and then claim David lost because Nadir Ahmed quoted Sirat Rasool Allah (actually giggled even typing that).

Anyway I am going to be making a video/documentary about 1-2 hours long on the preservation of the Quran from a skeptical point of view. (although it will be only appealing to Muslim sources).

To begin with I have made a small 5 minute clip just as a practice warm up

http://www.answeringabraham.com/2012/02/perfectly-preserved-quran-so-it-was.html

Derek Adams
www.AnsweringAbraham.com

David Wood said...

DK said: "and then claim David lost because Nadir Ahmed quoted Sirat Rasool Allah."

Did he mention the part at the end of the debate where I finished reading the passage Nadir quoted out of context? Disgustingly brutal passage (including mutilating Muhammad's enemies).

D335 said...

@Andish

"Something tells me kangaroo and kim are just troll Muslims."

I have not stop laughing yet, LMAO.
They thought they were helping people to taste the sweet smell of Islam.

Majority readers here have some history with islamic backward religious mentality that the muslims continue to show as ignorant amateurish zealots.

tiwas said...

I've been reading Kim's comments in this blog for a while now.. I noticed something, she started using the term "layman".

Could it be...she's actually began doing some research...

Search 4 Truth said...

@ Kim

That site you provided does not give any information of these people that you mentioned. are you attempting deception? What were the names of these people who followed these traditions. We are all waiting.

SGM said...

Kangroo and Kim are probably pulling their hair how to justify such a gross error in the quran. I would like to give them some hints how to get out of this jam.
1. You can play dead. Just pretend you never heard David Woods argument.
2. You can always blame the CIA.
3. You can say as Osama Abdallah that it is a hoax.
4. You can refute it by saying “it has been refuted before” without giving any evidence.
5. You can point to a website which is remotely not even close to the answer and say that find the answer there.
6. You can call Zakir Naik. I am sure he has some very amusing explanation that will get you out of this jam with no problem.
7. You can say that Mohammad was under black magic of a Jew when he said verse 9:30.

Or you can come to your senses and wake up to see how false Islam is.

cornholio said...

It's funny how Kim's knee-jerk reaction to any criticism of her religion of genocidal hatred and intolerance is to accuse everyone doing so of being a bigot.

I'd like to know what "Kim" thinks about the rabid antisemitic vomit found in her holy quran or the genocidal antisemitism found in the holy hadeeths of islam.

SGM said...

@ Kim,

Kim normally don’t answer intellectual questions so I don’t expect Kim to answer my question below, but maybe some Moslem following this post might take the time to enlighten me.

Kim said in regard to quran 5:116 and 9:30, “There were Jews and Christians pf that time that believes that.”
Based on this assumption that Christians of that time believed that Mary is part of Trinity and the Jews said that Ezra is the son of Allah, the quran calls both Christians and Jews kafirs.

Does this means that since Christians of today don’t believe that Mary is part of Trinity and Jews of today don’t say that ezra is son of Allah, that they are not Kafirs?

Kim, please enlighten me about Islam as we enlighten you about Christianity.

Kim said...

Yea David there simply were.
Otherwise it wouldnt be in the Quran for no reason, just as the pagan Gods Manat and Uzza have been dealt with in the Quran.
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Contrad/External/marytrin.html

Kim said...

http://muslim-responses.com/Mary_and_the_Trinity/Mary_and_the_Trinity
At least we know people at his time worshipped them (Jesus and Mary) besides God.

Kim said...

SGM.. If you get the lesson of the story, it is to not worship others besides God.

SGM said...

@ Kim,

Based on my earlier question to you Kim, I just want to add on to quran 5:116. We Christian from the very first century have believed that Mary is not part of the Trinity. Trinity includes God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. Quran’s complete silence on this proves that it has no problem with the original belief of Christians. For if it did, think about it, if it has such a problem with a small group of Christians who make Mary part of Trinity, how much more would it not complain about almost 99 % of Christian community who believes that the third part of Trinity is the Holy Spirit.

It proves two things. Either mohammad is completely ignorant of the true belief of majority of the Christians which makes Allah a nonsense god or it proves that Mohammad and Allah believed in the true Trinity also. If I am mistaken, please let me know where the hadith or Sunna or Quran complains about the true Trinity which Christians believe in.

kaimana said...

This is fascinating,i have done research regarding line 30 of al-tauba and i came to believe that either muhammad/allah confused the hebrew word banou meaning "messenger"(the jews of muhammads day would use that hebrew term for ezra) with the word ibnou meaning "son of" in arabic and hebrew......or muhammad/allah deliberately falsified this teaching to the jews to equate them to christians after all it was the last surah "revealed" so muhammad definately held alot of grudges against the jews of arabia at that time, either way 9:30 is bogus and its laughable to see muslims try to defend it.

cheryl_maree said...

Kim said in regard to quran 5:116 and 9:30, “There were Jews and Christians pf that time that believes that.”
Well Kim I am waiting for you to anser what David asked you? Do you think we might get an answer from you, if not then please refrain from speaking any further because you just run away when confronted, you should have answers to these questions if this is what you believe and my suggestion to you is that if you don't have the answers then START thinking about what you believe.
So please provide the details to the question Search 4 tearth asked:
That site you provided does not give any information of these people that you mentioned. are you attempting deception? What were the names of these people who followed these traditions. We are all waiting.

SGM said...

@ Kim,

Wrong. No where in the verses does it state not to worship “others” besides God. Are you adding words in Allah’s mouth? Are you telling me that you know more then Allah who is some how deficient and could not tell us in plain English what he is actually trying to say. And the lesson of the story is to clarify what Christians believe in and not to worship others.

Verse 5:116 is clarifying what Christians believe, or believed at the time per you. If you go back to verse 110, it reads: “how I strengthened thee with the holy Spirit,”. So Mohammad knew of the Holy Spirit and apparently Allah for that matter, however, he does not say anything about 99% of the Christians who believed in Trinity which included the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

No where in the quran does it states anything about the main belief of Christians regarding Trinity. If worshiping others is the main objective of this verse or for that matter this chapter, then why does not it address what the majority of the Christian believe.

It shows how ignorant Mohammad and Allah are.
When are you going to wake up to reality.

SGM said...

@ Kim,

“Yea David there simply were. Otherwise it wouldnt be in the Quran for no reason, just as the pagan Gods Manat and Uzza have been dealt with in the Quran.”

Response:

Based on your logic that there has to be a group of Christians who believed that Mary is part of Trinity since it is mentioned in the Quran, then can we concluded that the Sun has to set in muddy pool of water since it is mentioned in the Quran. Otherwise it wouldn’t be in the Quran for no reason. Correct?

simple_truth said...

SGM said...


------------- quote -----------

Kim said in regard to quran 5:116 and 9:30, “There were Jews and Christians pf that time that believes that.”
Based on this assumption that Christians of that time believed that Mary is part of Trinity and the Jews said that Ezra is the son of Allah, the quran calls both Christians and Jews kafirs.

Does this means that since Christians of today don’t believe that Mary is part of Trinity and Jews of today don’t say that ezra is son of Allah, that they are not Kafirs?

------------ response -----------

That brings up other issues as well. Since the Qu'ran appears to speak mainly of events happening in Mohammad's lifetime and in proximity of him, wouldn't it be safe to say that he could not indict all Christians or Jews since the overwhelming majority of them lived in more socially advanced areas such as Rome, Greece, Turkey? Wouldn't that make the Qu'ran perhaps true for what Mohammad personally encountered but false with respect to the rest of Christendom? Effectively, that would make the overall claim false, which would undermine the Qu'ran altogether since the Qu'ran tries to appeal to all of mankind. Although it is logical sound to deduce that the accusations were mainly local issues, if at all, they cannot be deemed explicitly as global ones judging by the manner that Mohammad addressed them.

TPaul said...

SGM says "No where in the quran does it states anything about the main belief of Christians regarding Trinity."

SGM,
Ironically the koran does speak of the persons of the trinity (emphasised in caps) in one sentence, although not refering to them as such.

[4.171] "O followers of the Book!..blah blah blah...; the Messiah, Isa son of Marium is only an apostle of ALLAH and His WORD which He communicated to Marium and a SPIRIT from Him.."

However below is what the surah should have read about what the Christians actually believe about Jesus, not the kind of mental vomit of Mohammed's ignorance that we find almost everywhere in the koran.

[4.171] "O believers (Muslims)do not exceed the limits in your religion, and do not speak (lies) against the Christians, but (speak) the truth; the Messiah, Isa son of Marium is the only son of your Lord and His Word which He communicated to Marium and a Spirit from Him"

Kim, Kangroo, this is what we believe, not Mohammed's fabrication found in the koran. Now show some integrity and admit that the koran has major flaws in it.

Hezekiah Ahaz said...

I'm really happy that I caught on to this.

Here we have Allah commiting the fallacy of composition.

If it's true of the parts it must be true of the whole.

How can a so called god commit a fallacy?


If Allah is supposedly omniscient wouldn't he have known what Christians really believed?


It's evident that only revelation Muhammad was getting was from his own mind.



To any rational minded muslim:


How is it that your god is a God?


Good luck to me getting an answer.

The Berean Search said...

Kim: "Yea David there simply were.
Otherwise it wouldnt be in the Quran for no reason..."

Nice example of a circular argument Kim.

David: The Quran misrepresents the beliefs of Jews and Christians.
Kim: No it doesn't. Jews and Christians held those beliefs.
David: Really? Can you prove that?
Kim: It wouldn't be in the Quran if it wasn't true...

Kim, this would actually be a comedy skit you could sell tickets for, except your faulty reasoning deals with issues of eternal significance.

PETE said...

@Kim

Give your best evident that Christians held those beliefs about mary is a part of trinity. Give me your prove please and dont use your taqiya..

Im so fed up when you said something without evident. Dont dancing anymore.

teriadams said...

Even if Kim is right and there were local Christians and Jews with unique obscure beliefs (for which there is no evidence)....

If the Quran were really the word of Allah, the all-knowing, then wouldn't Allah have known what the mainstream Christian and Jewish beliefs were? Isn't the Quran supposed to be written for all people and all times? If so, why does the Quran talk about these obscure beliefs as though they are mainstream beliefs for Christians and Jews--which they clearly aren't? Why didn't Allah know better than that?

It's as though Allah's knowledge were limited to what Mohammed knew. Hmmmm....

dstewart said...

Otherwise it wouldn't be in there?

It could easily be in there! If Muhammad was but a human being, and human beings err, then all that it would take for it to be in the Qur'an is A) Muhammad was being purposefully deceptive about what Christians actually believe, B) He simply did not get it, kind of like many people today until you really sit down and explain it to them. It's not that hard to figure out.

There are definitely possibilities besides that it's in there because the Christians at the time actually believed it, the one possibility that is complete nonsense, especially when Christians settled this and articulated the doctrine of the trinity in an ecumenical council centuries earlier.

jonnykzj said...

@Kim

Even if you try and claim there was a small group of people who supposedly worshiped Mary and Jesus as gods besides GOD, for which there is no known independent historical evidence part from muslim claims, WHAT ABOUT Quran 5:73 which states "blaspheme do they who say God is the "THIRD" OF THREE(arabic: THAALITH U THALAATHA)"? Which Christian or others have EVER MADE such a statement or believed in such? THUS this is a false critique against the trinity. NEVER does the Quran accurately define the trinity in any of it's verses.

SGM said...

TPaul siad, “Ironically the koran does speak of the persons of the trinity (emphasised in caps) in one sentence, although not referring to them as such.”
I agree that Quran does mention Jesus, Holy Spirit and God but it does not connect the dots between them regarding what Christians believe as Trinity.
That is why I mentioned verse 110 to bring out the point that Holy Spirit is mentioned in the Quran. So why does it not state that as Trinity, which consists of Mary, Jesus and Allah, is wrong, so also is Trinity which consists of Jesus, Holy Spirit and God.

This brings us to what simple_truth is pointing out that there are other issues as well. It appears though that Quran is siding with Christians against a heresy which included Mary as part of Trinity. If there were people who believed in this heresy, it was a very small number. According to Moslems, it is wrong to believe in Trinity no matter what the combination is. Therefore, if the Quran is the word of Allah, then it should have pointed out the bigger problem at the time of Mohammad regarding Trinity which the rest of 99% of the Christians of the world believed in. But it does not.

The conclusion is as simple_truth put it, “Wouldn't that make the Qu'ran perhaps true for what Mohammad personally encountered but false with respect to the rest of Christendom? Effectively, that would make the overall claim false, which would undermine the Qu'ran altogether since the Qu'ran tries to appeal to all of mankind.”

Either way, the Quran is wrong. Still waiting for Kim or Osama or Kangroo to interact with us and enlighten us with their illogical theories.

As it is written, today if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts. Wake up Moslems to the reality of Jesus Christ. He is THE ONLY WAY to eternal life.

SGM said...

After reading sura verse 5:116 a few times more, it just dawned on me that when did Allah say to Jesus, “O Isa son of Marium! did you say to men, Take me and my mother for two gods besides Allah” Did he ask this question at the time when this heresy was being spread?

The point I want to bring out is this, Allah is all knowing as Moslems claim. Now, why in the world such an all knowing being would ask such a stupid question to Jesus knowing very well that Jesus never did say it. Pay attention to Jesus’ reply, “if I had said it, Thou wouldst indeed have known it; Thou knowest what is in my mind” In other words, “Are you stupid? Don’t you know I have never said it?” Is Allah trying to find the culprit who spread such a lie? But being all knowing, he should have known who started it. Then knowing who started it, why is he putting this question before Jesus? To me, it shows Allah’s stupidity and proves that he is not true God.

For any Moslem reader. What I have said above is strictly from a Moslem prospective that Jesus never claimed to be divine. We Christians do believe that Christ claimed to be divine in the Holy Bible, however he never said that Mary is divine also.

All honor and glory belongs to our Lord and savior Jesus Christ.

Kangaroo said...

And sometimes I wonder if any of you read what I say properly, because you wouldn't be asking these questions.

Triniatrianism isn't the only faction of Christianity out there.
Anyways...The lesson of the story: Don't worship Jesus, or Mary, or anything/anyone else with God as the verses indicate. That rules out every form of Triniatrianism or whatever ism you worship. Hmmm..comprehend that. .

@johnnykjz
You are a funny man. What religion do you follow again?
@SGM
Provide us an Arabic scholar that agrees with you about the sun setting in the water. Gotta love your humour as well. I believe I've answered you ^^ . Also you define the Holy Spirit as the third of the trinity, which is equal to the father and the son, meaning the sun can probably burn your trinity alive..right? Anyways, the Quranic reference to the Holy Spirit as the Angel Gabriel. Common Christian mistake, dw.

SGM said...

@ Kangaroo,

I will be glad to provide you with the Arabic Scholars who agree with me about the sun setting in the water, actually muddy spring.

The Arabic scholars are Muhammad and Allah. You can not top these two scholars. Allah said it and Mohammad recited it.
Sura 18:84-85, “And he followed a road Till, when he reached the setting-place of the sun, he found it setting in a muddy spring, and found a people thereabout. We said: O Dhu'l-Qarneyn! Either punish or show them kindness.”

Now let me ask you a question: Why do you call Angel Gabriel “Holy” and “Spirit”? I thought only Allah is holy. And can you give me a reference where it says Gabriel or an angel is a spirit?

dstewart said...

Kangaroo,

You're last post misses the point on so many levels...

First, trinitarianism is and always has been the ORTHODOX position of the church, not just at the time of Muhammad, but well before as is evidenced by the fact that it was articulated and codified in an ecumenical (i.e. appies for the universal church as a whole) council centuries before Muhammad. The fact that the Qur'an generalizes Christian and Jewish beliefs in Mary and Ezra to my frustration that my Muslim friends today ACTUALLY THINK that's what I believe even after I try to explain that it's not (since they subscribe to the authority of the Qur'an, they think it must accurately reflect my beliefs..?) shows that Muhammad just didn't know what he was talking about. I say Muhammad because why would God depend on such a strawman argument?

Non-trinitarians are generally called heretics. i.e. if the Qur'an says they're wrong, and we say they're wrong, then why are these same verses used to say why WE're wrong too? Clearly they're used to generalize ALL Christians as wrong, or at least that's how Muslims consistently try to apply them. Is that a false interpretation? If so, then why do YOU say that Christians are wrong based on these verses? You're not making sense. If these passages are only addressing heretical sects, then again, they say nothing about why orthodox Christians are wrong, so how does that rule out trinitarianism?

We understand what you're saying. Your objection just doesn't make sense from a trinitarian perspective. Even if you're addressing non-trinitarian polytheistic sort of belief in Jesus' divinity, according to trinitarian belief, Jesus is not someone worshipped WITH God, but someone worshipped as the very same God who revealed himself as I AM to Moses in the Old Testament, three persons, ONE being. Also, it completely misses the point that Christians did not ever worship Mary. Christians knew that Mary was just a human being. Muhammad didn't seem to get this. It seems unlikely that if God was behind it he would not get it either.

As an analogy, consider monotheism broadly. I think you'd agree that Christians and Muslims are both monotheists. However, by you're reasoning:

1) Trinitarians are not the only monotheistic faction out there.
2) Anyways...The lesson of the story: Don't worship Muhammad, or Allah, or anything/anyone else that is not a true God according to my hypothetical naturalistic presupposition.
3) That rules out every form of theism, whether Islam, Christianity or any other Abrahamic faith.

dstewart said...

And one other point I forgot to mention:

About non-trinitarian sects, which one was it that worshipped Mary again? We're still waiting for the evidence...

Kangaroo said...

@SGM
http://www.load-islam.com/artical_det.php?artical_id=520&section=indepth&subsection=Glorious%20Quran

It's basic Islamic teachings. The evidence you want is in the article.

Fernando said...

Is it me or mr. Kim saide thate if the qura'n said it so, then and despite all the evidence otherwise, it must be so... pffff... thats the epithomy off an intoxicated minde...

Kangaroo said...

And yes he perceived it to set like that. Bring a Quranic Arabic scholar to agree with you.

David Wood said...

Kangaroo said: "And yes he perceived it to set like that. Bring a Quranic Arabic scholar to agree with you."

Does Muhammad count as a "Quranic Arabic scholar"? If so, he's quite clear on where the sun sets:

Sunan Abu Dawud 3991—Abu Dharr said: I was sitting behind the Apostle of Allah who was riding a donkey while the sun was setting. He asked: Do you know where this sets? I replied: Allah and his Apostle know best. He said: It sets in a spring of warm water.

Nothing here about the sun "appearing" to set in water.

Billy said...

Excellent observation Fernando, berean search, and others.

If the Quran said so, despite all the evidence to the contrary, it must be so (Kim).

Kim, that claim may be a powerful argument among the illiterate Muslims, but you are embarrassing yourself and the Muslim community by publically displaying the hallmark of the 1400 years of the much-touted Islamic madrasa scholarship.

Kangaroo said...

Here is your answer, if you are not bigoted enough to ignore everything I post:

http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?59419-Hadith-about-sun-sets

"The Hadith you cited is narrated from al-Zamakhshari in The Kahshaf
However
According to most authorities, this statement is not from Prophet Muhammad but it is attributed to Ka`b Al-Ahbar, a Jewish rabbi who converted to Islam and who reported this from the Torah as mentioned in Baydaawi that Sayidina Mu’awiya sent for Ka’b al-Ahbar and asked him. ‘Where does the sun set?’ He said in water and mud."





Scroll down a bit as you read this:

http://muslim-responses.com/Argument_Three/Argument_Three_


Ibn 'Abbas (A.S.) narrated that the Prophet (PBUH) was asked:

"Where does the sun set, and where does it rise from? The Messenger of Allah (PBUH) answered, "It is going in a (nonstop) regular motion; it does not cease or disappear. It sets in one place and rises in another, and sets in another place and rises elsewhere and so on. So, some people would say the sun has set and others would say it has just risen (at the same moment)."

David Wood said...

Ha! Ha! Ha! Desperation at its finest.

I gave you a Sahih narration, from one of your most trusted collections of ahadith, and the words were spoken by Muhammad.

Response? Someone else must have said it. Muhammad couldn't have said it, because it's obviously false (even though it lines up perfectly with the Qur'an). So a Jew must have said it.

Hmmm. Since this false Hadith is classified as Sahih, you've declared that the Muslim methodology is horribly flawed. But if the Muslim methodology is horribly flawed, and Muslims classified false stories as "Sahih," then we can't trust anything in the Muslim sources!

Hence, we know nothing about Muhammad. Why should I believe in him when I know nothing about him?

Kangaroo said...

HAHHAHAHAH! David Wood knows nothing about Hadith classification! Why should I trust what he says? The majority of (early) scholars agree that this Hadith comes from a Hew named Abu Dhar who got the report from his Torah. They didn't make this up because they wanted to..simple history. Nice try bigot.

TPaul said...

Kangroo says "Triniatrianism isn't the only faction of Christianity out there.
Anyways...The lesson of the story: Don't worship Jesus, or Mary, or anything/anyone else with God as the verses indicate..."

At no extended period of time was Mary ever "worshipped" as or besides God, so the koran, Mohammed and his puppet Allah are all dead wrong.

Even as most Muslim apologists claim, the koran was refering to some sect or cult, why in the world would allah not correctly indicate what the universal creed of Christians was, rather than go after some dead sect?

Besides, how hypocritical of Muslims to incorrectly point out Mary as an object of worship, when they themselves idolize Mohammed to an extent of placing his name besides Allah's, in most Muslim homes, and to venerate and kiss some obscure rock embeded in the kaaba.

kenmehms said...

David.

God bless you in the great work you are doing.

One question I have the Sunan Abu Dawud 3991 Hadith app. But cannot find 3991. It seems to go up to 3990 then skip to 3998.

Where can I find this?

In Christ

Kenan

David Wood said...

Calling your bluff, Kangaroo. List the "early" Muslim scholars who declared that this statement didn't come from Muhammad. Don't bother trying to post any other comments until you give us the list of names.

BTW, why do you pretend that I'm the one who classified the hadith as "sahih"? It's your own scholars who classified it as such. Get the Darussalam translation of Abu Dawud; it gives the classification. Of course, if you bothered doing the slightest research (instead of letting lame websites tell you what to believe), you'd know this already.

David Wood said...

kenmehms,

Muslims were so embarrassed by Muhammad's blunders, they left many of them out of the online version of Sunan Abu Dawud. However, if you search this blog, I've posted a scan of the printed version.

Kangaroo said...

There are Hadiths that are narrated by the companions of the Prophet and their companions. Abu Dhar was one of them, a Jewish convert that liked to tell things from the Torah. What's the problem? The only problem I see is the reliability of his Torah, not the narration which is Sahih.

David Wood said...

Abu Dharr said that the "Apostle of Allah" said it. That's Muhammad. You responded by saying that many "early" scholars claimed that this came from someone other than Muhammad. So let's see your list. So far, you haven't given us a single one.

Search 4 Truth said...

It's amazing kangaroo has found a way to blame the Torah for his Sahih hadith. I have never in my entire life spoken to a Muslim who has intellectual integrity! Not one!

kaimana said...

@david wood
If you notice our muslim friend here kangaroo" hasnt even been able to provide proof about jews referring to ezra as the son of god, trinity,etc..therefore I don't think kangaroo or any muslim for that matter will succesfully provide a quotation from any early mufassir exposing the maudu matn (fabricated material) of the murky water hadith in abi dawuds sunan.

I'm sure hell will freeze over before that happens.LOL

Billy said...

First Kangaroo says that Mo said it: “And yes he perceived it to set like that.”

Then Kangaroo says Mo did not say it: “According to most authorities, this statement is not from Prophet Muhammad”

It is worth repeating S4T’s excellent observation: "I have never in my entire life spoken to a Muslim who has intellectual integrity! Not one!"

Perhaps Kangaroo is suggesting that Allah said that the sun set in a muddy spring (Sura 18:84-85), and Mo did not agree with Allah, but the Jewish man agreed with it (Sunan Abu Dawud 3991).

Thus, shouldn’t Mo be repudiated for failing to confirm the words of Allah?

Hezekiah Ahaz said...

The facts don't determine what some people will believe ,for example, muslims.


Muslims are truly the comedians of the world.


Just look at Zakir Nakir he does excellent stand up.

Osama Abdullah is really good too.

Just wondering if there is anybody I should be aware of I'm always looking for a good laugh?

Kangaroo said...

@Search for Truth

I've never met a bigot that read the sources of information that I posted.

@David Wood
I've sent a question about the issue to an Imam who has knowledge of this. Perhaps he may be able to contribute better about this Hadith. I will tell you what he says whenever he responds.

Hezekiah Ahaz said...

Yo Mo.

"Prophet" Mo.


Good one.

Search 4 Truth said...

@ Kangaroo

You havent provided any sources that corroborate your attempt at a rebuttal. Now you wanna see real bigotry and hatred. I dont hate Muslims, I hate evil ideologies. It is just and moral to expose evil. So I hate Islam. Muslims are just victims. Here is true hatred and bigotry instead of your fallacious attempts to label all people who hate Islam but not Muslims.

The Believers are but a single Brotherhood (49:10)

Are those who know equal to those who know not? (39:09)

Ye are the best of peoples, evolved for mankind, enjoining what is right, forbidding what is wrong, and believing in Allah. If only the People of the Book [Christians and Jews] had faith, it were best for them: among them are some who have faith, but most of them are perverted transgressors. (3:110)

Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves… (48:29)

Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. (9:29

Those who reject (Truth), among the People of the Book and among the Polytheists, will be in Hell-Fire, to dwell therein (for aye). They are the worst of creatures. (98:6)

Surely the vilest of animals in Allah's sight are those who disbelieve, then they would not believe. (8:55)

Now i will expect you to show intellectual integrity and consistency and condemn these bigoted teachings. We will all be waiting!

Kangaroo said...

"Secondly The Major Imams of tafseer realised the weakness of this addition in the Hadith by Suffiyan so they never used it to explain the verse of Surat al kahf, such as Ibn katheer and al Tabari and al Qurtubi and also in tafseer al Jalalayn."

http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-65756.html

If you scroll down all the way, more details about the narration. (I'll post the Imam's response whenever possible).

David Wood said...

Kangaroo,

Try thinking about what your saying. Your latest claim is this: Later Muslims didn't quote this ahadith when they discussed 18:86; hence, they must have recognized that the hadith is weak."

Nonsense. Ibn Kathir and Qurtubi came centuries after Abu Dawud, long after the size of the sun was established. You can't use them to argue for the weakness of a hadith, when they obviously would have known far more about the sun than earlier writers.

Also, you specifically said that Muslim scholars attributed the saying to a Jew. Where did Ibn Kathir or Qurtubi ever say this?

Finally, are you appealing to Tabari??? Would you like me to share what Tabari said about where the sun sets? It gets much, much, much better than what we read in Abu Dawud! Why? Because Tabari came long before Ibn Kathir or Qurtubi.

I feel a post coming on!

simple_truth said...

Kangaroo said...

------------------------- quote ------------------

Here is your answer, if you are not bigoted enough to ignore everything I post:

http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?59419-Hadith-about-sun-sets

"The Hadith you cited is narrated from al-Zamakhshari in The Kahshaf
However
According to most authorities, this statement is not from Prophet Muhammad but it is attributed to Ka`b Al-Ahbar, a Jewish rabbi who converted to Islam and who reported this from the Torah as mentioned in Baydaawi that Sayidina Mu’awiya sent for Ka’b al-Ahbar and asked him. ‘Where does the sun set?’ He said in water and mud."


------------------------- reply ------------------

More name calling? The word 'bigot' has no meaning left in regards to it coming from you. You might as well be saying vinegar while meaning something sweet. Your constant overuse and abuse of certain words leads them meaningless. The hypocrisy and irony of your above statement is duly noted. You don't respond or probably read many of the responses here but want to lecture us about ignoring and bigotry. You are the epitome of what you speak.

In your attempt to credit a Jew with this, can you find any sources (non Islamic and preferably Jewish) that support this claim? Can you even find some Islamic sources that attest to this?

In trying to argue against the literal interpretation, it wouldn't make any difference whether a Jew or not said it. The issue is whether it was said and is it supported by Islamic texts.

------------- quote ----------------

Scroll down a bit as you read this:

http://muslim-responses.com/Argument_Three/Argument_Three_


Ibn 'Abbas (A.S.) narrated that the Prophet (PBUH) was asked:

"Where does the sun set, and where does it rise from? The Messenger of Allah (PBUH) answered, "It is going in a (nonstop) regular motion; it does not cease or disappear. It sets in one place and rises in another, and sets in another place and rises elsewhere and so on. So, some people would say the sun has set and others would say it has just risen (at the same moment)."


------------- reply ----------------

Try to give is exact locations of what you quote so that we don't have to search trough the entire page to find.

Although the explanation does give the impression that the sun moves about, it still doesn't refute the setting and rising aspects of it in the discussion. I fail to see the relevance to discussion. Most accounts show a literal interpretation of the sun actually coming to rest at a location which is near some kind of cloudy water.

simple_truth said...

Kangaroo said...

There are Hadiths that are narrated by the companions of the Prophet and their companions. Abu Dhar was one of them, a Jewish convert that liked to tell things from the Torah. What's the problem? The only problem I see is the reliability of his Torah, not the narration which is Sahih.

--------------- reply --------------

So, you are admitting that the text has a literal meaning but decides to shift the blame to a Jew by claiming that it was from the Torah. There is no such thing in the Torah; so, now you are going to claim a corrupted Torah. We have already discussed this before that Mohammad referred to the Torah on several occasions and didn't not call it corrupt. One of the easiest verses to refute your claim is 5:42-43.

"
5:42 They (like to) listen to falsehood, to devour Suht. So if they come to you, either judge between them, or turn away from them.If you turn away from them, they cannot hurt you in the least.And if you judge, judge with justice between them. Verily, Allah loves those who act justly.

5:43 But how do they come to you for a decision while they have the Tawrah, in which is the decision of Allah; yet even after that they turn away. For they are not believers.
"
How could Mohammad make that statement if the Torah was corrupt? You can't use your 'it's the Jews' card on this one.

betwixt said...

Here's the post with the scan of Abu Dawud and David's video on #3991: Sunan Abu Dawud 3991

Kangaroo said...

Theyre talking about the narrator's weakness in memory.
Anyways, no I dont appeal to al Tabari......

Kangaroo said...

Tabari is a great scholar but he included all kinds of unauthenticated Hadith. But he does include notes on which narrations are reliable.

cornholio said...

Considering how muslimes treat the few Hindus, Sikhs, Bahais, Jews and Christians still unfortunate to live in ANY of their various islamofascist states, why shouldn't anyone non-muslime be bigoted against muslimes? Because the actions of lying muslimes speak a lot louder than their lies.

David Wood said...

They challenged Abu Dharr's memory? Abu Dawud obviously didn't have a problem with it. Indeed, the Hadith are filled with narrations from Abu Dharr. Moreover, modern Muslim scholars classify the Hadith as "Sahih," which they wouldn't do if they believed Abu Dharr had a faulty memory.

Let's face it, Kangaroo. You're not basing your attacks against Muhammad's companion Abu Dharr on any problems with his memory. You're simply doing everything you can to avoid an obvious blunder from your prophet.

Are you really telling us that Abu Dharr's memory was so faulty, he wouldn't know the difference between (1) Muhammad telling him something, and (2) reading something in some source we don't even have?

Sheer desperation.

Kangaroo said...

Not Abu Dharr's memory... One of the narrators in the chain was described as having bad memory, when narrating Hadith. He may have altered what Abu Dharr had said due to his bad memory. Check my link again please, if you didn't read it.

David Wood said...

Kangaroo,

You're still missing the point. The Hadith is classified as "Sahih." No one would classify the Hadith even close to Sahih if it had an unreliable narrator in the chain. Nor would Abu Dawud have included it in his collection.

BTW, still waiting for that list of early Muslim scholars who said that the quotation didn't come from Muhammad.

Billy said...

Kangaroo: Mo said it. He probably said the sun “appeared” to set in a muddy pond.

David: The text does not say, “appeared”

Kangaroo: Well then, Mo probably didn’t say it. May be a Jew said it from the Torah.

David: It is not in the Torah; and it says Mo said it.

Kangaroo: I don’t know if Mo said it or not, an Islamic website said the hadith is kinda weak.

David: Dude it is a Sahih hadith

Kangaroo: Whoops that didn’t work. Searching more Islamic websites…

Kangaroo: You all are bigots

David: bigot means somebody with strong opinions, especially on politics, religion, or ethnicity, who refuses to accept different views. Based on this definition, Mo was the biggest bigot around (Quran 9:29).

Kangaroo: Okay forget the bigot thing then. I got it. I got it. Tabari did not quote it so that must mean Mo may not have said it.

David: I feel a post coming

Kangaroo: David, please no, no. I retract any appeal to Tabari. Please don’t embarrass the Muslims any more than you already have.

Kangaroo: Eureka! Eureka! (Another Islamic website said) The Muslim had a faulty memory so Mo may not have said it.

David: Your Sahih hadith is full of narrations from this dude with the faulty memory

Kangaroo: David, you are confusing me with facts. I don’t know if Mo said it or not. I am so confused. Hold on, let me run off and ask mama (Imam). Mama (Imam) will tell me.

It is worth repeating the words Hezekiah: “Muslims are truly the comedians of the world.”

Kangaroo said...

Right on Billy. As if you actually know half of what I said. Nice imagination.

Read my previous comments again.

@David
I understand your point. Well, here is what the Imam said:


"I'm sure you must have been by seaside in your life many times.  I have been to various beaches at sunset and if you look at the sun disappearing in the horizon, it truly looks like it is setting in water.  So that Hadith is not in its literal sense. 

Even if it was in the literal sense, it is no big deal.  We would just say that because of modern day research, that statement is wrong.  The wrong statement does not diminish anything from the Prophet's status. 

Once he told people to plan their trees in a certain manner, but the trees didn't produce like previously.  So he told them the next year, that he was wrong in his opinion about planting the trees in a certain way.  His comment the following year was the following:

“I am only a human: if I command you to do something in your religion, then take it; but if I tell you to do something based on personal opinion, then [realize] that I am only human,” and in another narration, “Yet if I inform you of something from Allah, then do it, for indeed I will never convey an untruth on behalf of Allah Mighty and Majestic,” and in yet another narration, “You know better of your worldly affairs.”

So either that Abu Dawud Hadith is metaphorical or even if it is in its literal sense, since it was a worldly matter, it is fine if it is a misjudgment. 

Hope that has answered your question.  Please remember me in your prayers."

Search 4 Truth said...

@ Kangaroo

That is the most worthless, ridiculous, preposterous excuse I have ever heard. And the Quran, which is suppose to be from Allah states that the sun sets in a murky pool of water. So Allah and Mohamed reach the same conclusions! If you cannot see the inconsistency and ridiculousness of these excuses then you are way to far gone and have absolutely no intellectual integrity at all.

18.086
YUSUFALI: Until, when he reached the setting of the sun, he found it set in a spring of murky water: Near it he found a People: We said: "O Zul-qarnain! (thou hast authority,) either to punish them, or to treat them with kindness."
PICKTHAL: Till, when he reached the setting-place of the sun, he found it setting in a muddy spring, and found a people thereabout. We said: O Dhu'l-Qarneyn! Either punish or show them kindness.
SHAKIR: Until when he reached the place where the sun set, he found it going down into a black sea, and found by it a people. We said: O Zulqarnain! either give them a chastisement or do them a benefit.


So now was Allah a human capable of making human mistakes?

Either you can be inconsistent and say that Allah made a mistake for you can admit Allah was wrong. Which is it?


We will all be waiting for your logical fallacies, inconsistencies, and fallacious assertions!

kenmehms said...

Wow. Kangaroo you have surpassed yourself. This is beyond a joke. I don't know who is worse, samatar, Kim, Osama, or you!

Your last post from the deluded imam. Is that from the same site where a Muslim keeps asking the imam about this and the imam performs acrobatics to try and answer it. The poor Muslim fellow is troubled. He asks is it metaphorical or not?.

The imam in the end gets angry and asks the fellow what are you getting at. He refuses to Carry on the blog and warns that from now on will give one answer and you have to accept it.

You Muslims really are fighting a losing battle. I truly pity you.

Kangaroo said...

The Hadith in this Form is weak and corrupt, the problem with this Sanad is Suffiyan bin Hussein.


Ya'aqoub bin Shaybah said about him: truthful and Trustworthy but weak in narrating hadiths.


Uthman bin Abi Shaybah said: he was trustworthy but troubled in his hadith.

Al Ajali said: trustworthy, Bin Sa'ad said: trustworthy but makes a Lot of mistakes in his hadiths.

قال أبو داود عن بن معين ليس بالحافظ
Abu Dawood told from bin Ma'een: Not a Hafiz (Does not memorize well).

Tahtheeb al tahtheeb 4/190.

Several from the people of Ilm have weakened him because although he was a truthful Man yet he was troubled in hadith and didn't have a good memory.

What happened is that Suffiyan made a mistake and confused the Hadith of sunset with a verse from the Quran:

"They ask thee concerning Zul-Qarnain. Say, I will rehearse to you something of his story. Verily we established his power on earth, and we gave him the ways and the means to all ends. One (such) way he followed. Until, when he reached the setting of the sun, he found it set in a spring of murky water: near it he found a people." (Holy Qur'an 18:83-86)

Ok now one asks, even if he makes lots of mistakes and has a bad memory How do you know that he made a mistake here?

Answer is that this Same exact hadith was narrated from Abu Dharr al ghafari through different, Stronger chains of transmission in Bukhari and in Muslim without this addition of "spring of murky water".


Abu Na'eem told us from al A'amash from Ibrahim al Taimee from his father from Abu Dharr: Once I was with the Prophet in the mosque at the time of sunset. The Prophet said, "O Abu Dharr! Do you know where the sun sets?" I replied, "Allah and His Apostle know best." He said, "It goes and prostrates underneath (Allah's) Throne; and that is Allah's Statement:-- 'And the sun runs on its fixed course for a term (decreed). And that is the decree of All-Mighty, the All-Knowing....' (36.38) (SAHIH AL BUKHARI - Book #60, Hadith #326).

now in Muslim:


Yahya bin Ayyub and Ishaq bin Ibrahim both told us from ibn Alyah that he narrated from Yunis from ibrahim bin Yazeed al taimee from his father from abu Dharr that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) one day said: Do you know where the sun goes? They replied: Allah and His Apostle know best. He (the Holy Prophet) observed: Verily it (the sun) glides till it reaches its resting place under the throne. Then it falls prostrate and remains there until it is asked: Rise up and go to the place whence you came, and it goes back and continues emerging out from its rising place and then glides till it reaches its place of rest under the throne and falls prostrate and remains in that state until it is asked: Rise up and return to the place whence you came, and it returns and emerges out from it rising place and the it glides (in such a normal way) that the people do not discern anything ( unusual in it) till it reaches its resting place under the throne. Then it would be said to it: Rise up and emerge out from the place of your setting, and it will rise from the place of its setting. The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said. Do you know when it would happen? It would happen at the time when faith will not benefit one who has not previously believed or has derived no good from the faith. (SAHIH MUSLIM - Book #001, Hadith #0297).

Kangaroo said...

the same website/forum:

http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?65756-Ibn-ul-Qayyim-And-his-book-about-Paradise/page2

Kangaroo said...

@kenmehms

If only you looked at the OT in your Bible. Oh my what do we find. I'll leave that to you.
Here's one example:

"Then spake Joshua to the LORD in the day when the LORD delivered up the Amorites before the children of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel, Sun, stand thou still upon Gibeon; and thou, Moon, in the valley of Ajalon. And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. [Is] not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day. And there was no day like that before it or after it, that the LORD hearkened unto the voice of a man: for the LORD fought for Israel. (Joshua 10:12-14)"

http://muslim-responses.com/Argument_Three/Argument_Three_


And this Hadith doesn't mean that I'm going to lose Islam because of a weak narrator. Lol...My faith doesn't rest on that.

Search 4 Truth said...

ngaroo

You have conveniently ignored the fact that the hadith are consistent with what Allah says in the Quran. Now your presenting more hadith that are also scientifically in error in an attempt to deflect from the other scientifically inaccurate hadith! And you are deflecting to the Bible because you know that Allah and Mohamed are incorrect!

Now for these hadith!

"O Abu Dharr! Do you know where the sun sets?" I replied, "Allah and His Apostle know best." He said, "It goes and prostrates underneath (Allah's) Throne; and that is Allah's Statement:-- 'And the sun runs on its fixed course for a term (decreed). And that is the decree of All-Mighty, the All-Knowing....' (36.38) (SAHIH AL BUKHARI - Book #60, Hadith #326).


This is stating that the sun sets under a throne. Thats false.


It also states that the sun has a course, implying that the sun orbits the earth. that is also false.

How many inaccuracies are you going to present for us. All your doing is reinforcing the fact that Islam and Mohamed were in error.


So are you telling us that the sun orbits the earth and then sets under neath Allahs throne? Thank you for exposing Islam for us!~ Now if you want more evidence that Allah and Mohamed believed that the sun orbited the earth we can go there as well. You, Islam, and Mohamed are COOKED!

Search 4 Truth said...

@ Kangaroo

This Biblical verse is no problem. God has the ability to suspend any thing. We are talking about natural cycles of the sun and planets. Certainly your not going to say that God does not have the ability to temporarily suspend the sun or moon. This is a terrrible attempt at deflection.

Allah and Mohamed stated that the Quran sets in a murky pool of water. And the Biblical verse says that God suspended them for a temporary time. Thats like comparing apples and hand grenades!

021.033
YUSUFALI: It is He Who created the Night and the Day, and the sun and the moon: all (the celestial bodies) swim along, each in its rounded course.
PICKTHAL: And He it is Who created the night and the day, and the sun and the moon. They float, each in an orbit.
SHAKIR: And He it is Who created the night and the day and the sun and the moon; all (orbs) travel along swiftly in their celestial spheres.



* تفسير Tafsir al-Jalalayn
{ وَهُوَ ٱلَّذِي خَلَقَ ٱلْلَّيْلَ وَٱلنَّهَارَ وَٱلشَّمْسَ وَٱلْقَمَرَ كُلٌّ فِي فَلَكٍ يَسْبَحُونَ }

And He it is Who created the night and the day, and the sun and the moon, each (kullun, the nunation of this [particle] stands in place of the second noun [of the genitive construction] that would have been al-shams, ‘the sun’, or al-qamar, ‘the moon’, or their subsidiaries, namely, al-nujūm, ‘the stars’) in an orbit, a circular [one] like a mill in the sky, swimming, moving with speed, like a swimmer in water. In order to effect the analogy with the latter, the plural person [of the verb employed] for rational beings is used.



* تفسير Tanwîr al-Miqbâs min Tafsîr Ibn ‘Abbâs
{ وَهُوَ ٱلَّذِي خَلَقَ ٱلْلَّيْلَ وَٱلنَّهَارَ وَٱلشَّمْسَ وَٱلْقَمَرَ كُلٌّ فِي فَلَكٍ يَسْبَحُونَ }

(And He it is Who created the night and the day, and the sun and the moon) He made the sun and the moon subservient. (They float, each in an orbit) each one of them rotate around its orbit.

Tafsir Ibn 'Abbas, trans. Mokrane Guezzou
© 2012 Royal Aal al-Bayt Institute for Islamic Thought, Amman, Jordan


How can Allah make so many scientific errors?

36.040
YUSUFALI: It is not permitted to the Sun to catch up the Moon, nor can the Night outstrip the Day: Each (just) swims along in (its own) orbit (according to Law).
PICKTHAL: It is not for the sun to overtake the moon, nor doth the night outstrip the day. They float each in an orbit.
SHAKIR: Neither is it allowable to the sun that it should overtake the moon, nor can the night outstrip the day; and all float on in a sphere.


Now how can the sun catch up to the moon if Allah didnt think they were both orbiting the earth?

Jeopardy theme begins NOW!

kenmehms said...

Kangaroo. Re Joshua 10:12-14

We know that the sun does not move around the earth causing day and night but rather the earth revolves around the sun. Why did Joshua address the sun rather than the earth? Did he believe the sun actually moved?

Language Of Appearance

As we have already mentioned, Scripture speaks in the language of appearance, the language of observation. From our point of view here on earth the sun does rise in the morning and set at night. From that vantage point Joshua addresses the sun with his request. Marten Woodstra, Old Testament authority, writes:

The language that Joshua uses in addressing the sun and moon is the language of ordinary observation still used today in the scientific age. Probably Joshua and his contemporaries thought of the sun as moving around the earth, but his language should not be pressed to construct a "view of the universe" any more than should todays reference to the rising and setting of the sun (Marten Woodstra, The Book of Joshua, Grand Rapids, Eerdmans: 1981, p. 175).

For more in depth answers check out the following (I'll play you at your own game)


http://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/don_stewart/stewart.cfm?ID=625


http://creation.mobi/joshuas-long-day

Now stop swaying off topic and answer all the questions you've been asked.

Hezekiah Ahaz said...

I'm really happy that Kangaroo finally came out and said it.

His faith rest on the imaginary.


So, now we know that Allah is not omniscient and hence disqualifies himself from being God.


Good Job Kangaroo.



I really wanna know how do you justify belief in the imaginary?



This would make a great post:


Kangaroo and his belief in the imaginary.

Kangaroo said...

Double standards of Christian bigots. Clearly ^^.

Kangaroo said...

There are quite a few excellent interpretations of it. Now do your homework and do it well (since you never read my links).

Search 4 Truth said...

There are no double standards. You are running and deflecting. Allah and Mohamed reach the same conclusions. They are both wrong because they are both Mohamed.

Allah states that the sun sets in murky water, and Mohamed reaches the same conclusion.

And you have yet to show any type of consistency.

Allah also states the sun orbits the earth! but yet again you cant and will not respond!

Islam and Mohamed exposed once again!

Search 4 Truth said...

And how are we bigots from presnenting evidence?

And why arent you calling Mohamed, yourself and Allah a bigot when they are clearly bigoted?

Oh yeah, you bury your head and are a hypocrite. Just like your false prophet and Allah.

Are these or arent these bigoted statements?


The Believers are but a single Brotherhood (49:10)

Are those who know equal to those who know not? (39:09)

Ye are the best of peoples, evolved for mankind, enjoining what is right, forbidding what is wrong, and believing in Allah. If only the People of the Book [Christians and Jews] had faith, it were best for them: among them are some who have faith, but most of them are perverted transgressors. (3:110)

Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves… (48:29)

Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. (9:29

Those who reject (Truth), among the People of the Book and among the Polytheists, will be in Hell-Fire, to dwell therein (for aye). They are the worst of creatures. (98:6)

Surely the vilest of animals in Allah's sight are those who disbelieve, then they would not believe. (8:55)



Are you or arent you a hypocrite? And it is not bigoted to hate an evil ideology. It is just and moral!

Hezekiah Ahaz said...

Kangaroo are you sure?

You could be imagining things again.


HahahahaHaha.


Let's be honest kangaroo you know you're being arbitrary.


Why not a magic elf, Santa Claus, the monster in your closet, gremlins. Why allah?

Search 4 Truth said...

A delusion is a belief held with absolute conviction despite superior evidence

tiwas said...

Kangaroo,

You said, the explanation for Joshua 10:12-14 is, Double standards of Christian bigots. Clearly ^^.

Ok, let's say that you are right, the Bible also made the same mistake (it's not, but let's just say it did), does that make the problem regarding the setting of the sun in the Quran solved?

dstewart said...

There are quite a few "excellent" interpretations that contradict each other...

Kangaroo said...

http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?59419-Hadith-about-sun-sets/page3


Actually read..I'd suggest from page 1. I believe I have found my answer. I won't be replying to your question regarding this, the answer is in front of you.

Search 4 Truth said...

@ Kangaroo

So Allah perceived it that way?

18.086
YUSUFALI: Until, when he reached the setting of the sun, he found it set in a spring of murky water: Near it he found a People: We said: "O Zul-qarnain! (thou hast authority,) either to punish them, or to treat them with kindness."
PICKTHAL: Till, when he reached the setting-place of the sun, he found it setting in a muddy spring, and found a people thereabout. We said: O Dhu'l-Qarneyn! Either punish or show them kindness.
SHAKIR: Until when he reached the place where the sun set, he found it going down into a black sea, and found by it a people. We said: O Zulqarnain! either give them a chastisement or do them a benefit.


So these people walked to the end of the earth and found the sun setting in a murky pool of water. And thats how Allah perceived it! Ok That clears everything up./ LOL!


And your link does not say what you want it to say. All it does is say that it is perceived in that way. But Mohamed said in no uncertain terms that the sun set in a murky pool of water! JUST LIKE YOUR ALLAH!


So tell us why did Allah relate this story as it is perceived by man! The Quran is the unaltered word of Allah right? LOL

Also you are running from the fact that your Quran says the sun orbits the earth and the moon and the sun are in orbit together!

You are suffering from a serious psychosis. you need to seek psychiatric help immediately! Run dont walk. You may be a danger to yourself and others.

Search 4 Truth said...

Everyone go and read the link he provided. It refutes nothing and doesnt do anything but give people opinions. there is no evidence that anything is unreliable. It is all smoke and mirrors as usual.

Kangaroo if you think this provides evidence that the hadith are unreliable then you are incapable of critical thinking!

kenmehms said...

Wow kangaroo just when I thought it couldn't get any worse.

I urge you all to check out the site he posted. Here it is again

http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?59419-Hadith-about-sun-sets/page3

It is the usual desperate trash the Muslims keep spewing out:

1.A Jew wrote it, he got it from the Torah.

If so kangaroo and to all Muslims where in the Torah does it say the sun sets in murky/muddy water?

2. That particular Hadith/narrator was untrustworthy.

3. It appeared that way to Muhammad!

Please, please, please read this thread he has posted, if it wasn't so tragic it would be funny.

You can see that kangaroo in his desperation has been trawling the web for an answer, and this is the best he could come up with. Stuff we have heard hundreds of times before.

Unbelievable.

Billy said...

Kangaroo: Dear Learned Imam, pray tell about magical Islamic sunset

Learned Imam: Dear Australian hopping disciple, I don’t have the faintest idea what Mo was talking about. May be Mo was speaking allegorically, may be literally, who knows. Mo is the prophet whether he was right or wrong.

David: Sigh! [Thinking: Still waiting for that list of early scholars you promised]

Kangaroo: [desperately trolling the internet to save the reputation of Mo] I got my answer. Go read this website.

S4T & ken: Dude, that website is the bottom of the barrel of Islamic apologetics, providing nothing but a few people’s imaginative excuses. It provides no evidence. Moreover, Allah in the Q also says the sun set in a pool of muddy H2O.

Kangaroo: [tries to save face in the midst of a humiliating defeat by unilaterally retreating from the debate] “I won't be replying to your question regarding this…”

Dear Kangaroo, with all due respect, acts17 has ended the debating career of many Muslims who believed they could defend the incoherent drivel of Mo and his sock puppet Allah. Don’t take it personally, and do come back and entertain us with the Islamic sunsets and other scientific accounts in the Q.

The Berean Search said...

Kangaroo: "Actually read..I'd suggest from page 1. I believe I have found my answer. I won't be replying to your question regarding this, the answer is in front of you."

I can't find anything that approaches an answer and I read all 3 pages, not to mention there seems to be more than one explanation offered.

Kangaroo, will you please paste and quote the part that you feel gives you your satisfactory answer. Without that, no one else here can follow your line of thinking.

Hezekiah Ahaz said...

This is worth repeating:


Billy said: "Dear Kangaroo, with all due respect, acts17 has ended the debating career of many Muslims who believed they could defend the incoherent drivel of Mo and his sock puppet Allah. Don’t take it personally, and do come back and entertain us with the Islamic sunsets and other scientific accounts in the Q."

Thanks billy for putting a smile on my face.


We can add Derek to that list too.



1 Cor 1:20 " Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?"

kenmehms said...

Well put Billy.

Let's see if kangaroo can come back from this one!

jonnykzj said...

@Kangaroo

>>You are a funny man. What religion do you follow again?<<

JK- I'm a Christian now, trinitarian Christian to be specific, but even that i consider redundant coz tht was always the dominant and IMU true Christianity. BUT EVEN UNITARIANS fully accept Jesus being the UNIQUE SON OF GOD which the Quran vehemently denies. SO NO MATTER what, the Quran shoudn't have referred to those or any Christians as true Christians, EVER if it at least were to be honest, BUT IT DID which shows that Muhammad was just trying to LURE CHRISTIANS N JEWS INTO ISLAM BY FALSELY APPEASING THEM WHILST HE WAS STILL WEAK. AND NO CHRISTIAN EVER CLAIMED THAT "ALLAH IS THE THIRD OF THREE" which the Quran accuses them/some of in 5:73.

jonnykzj said...

@Kangaroo

The problem with 18:86 is that it says "HE FOUND IT(WaJaDa-HA) setting in a murky spring...". IF it was just about appearance there are other Arabic terms perfectly decribing that phenomenon, e.g. "RAYA/ARAA", also used for Abraham's vision in 37:102, OR "SHUBIH" as in 4:157, SO it shldve said "IT APPEARED TO HIM OR HE ENVIOSIONED IT(RAYA-HA/SHuBiHu-HA) setting in a murky spring..."