"Thank you David. The more you bring up issues like this, the more I learn about my religion :)
I appreciate it."
Welcome to the Answering Muslims School of Islamic Instruction, Kim! To further your education, let me add two ahadith to our recent discussion of Allah punishing Christians and Jews for the sins of Muslims. I'd like to see how you think they line up with your commentaries.
To review (for those just tuning in), I've already quoted two ahadith from a section of Sahih Muslim titled: "THROWING OF NON-BELIEVERS IN HELL-FIRE FOR BELIEVERS AS DIVINE GRACE AND MERCY." The two passages read:
Sahih Muslim 6666—Allah’s Apostle said: No Muslim would die but Allah would admit in his stead a Jew or a Christian in Hell-Fire.
Sahih Muslim 6668—Allah’s Messenger [said]: There would come people amongst the Muslims on the Day of Resurrection with as heavy sins as a mountain, and Allah would forgive them and He would place in their stead the Jews and the Christians.
According to Kim, these ahadith do not teach substitutionary atonement (i.e. they don't say that non-Muslims will be punished for the sins of Muslims). To see how Kim is once again contradicting her prophet, let's read two more ahadith:
Sahih Muslim 6665—Abu Musa reported that Allah's Messenger said: When it will be the Day of Resurrection Allah would deliver to every Muslim a Jew or a Christian and say: That is your rescue from Hell-Fire.
110 Hadith Qudsi—Allah’s Messenger said: On the Day of Resurrection, my Ummah (nation) will be gathered into three groups. One sort will enter Paradise without rendering an account (of their deeds). Another sort will be reckoned an easy account and admitted into Paradise. Yet another sort will come bearing on their backs heaps of sins like great mountains. Allah will ask the angels though He knows best about them: Who are these people? They will reply: They are humble slaves of yours. He will say: Unload the sins from them and put the same over the Jews and Christians: then let the humble slaves get into Paradise by virtue of My Mercy.
Here Muhammad says, quite clearly, that the Christians and Jews are a "rescue" from hellfire for Muslims, and that Allah will "unload the sins" from the backs of Muslims and place them on Jews and Christians.
Care to reinterpret these for us, Kim? If you can't, are you going to admit that, by complaining about substitutionary atonement, you have condemned your god, your prophet, and your religion? And if you've sinned against Allah in this way, will Allah punish me for your blasphemies?
"Praise be to Allaah.
This hadeeth is to be found in Saheeh Muslim (2767), narrated from Abu Moosa (may Allaah be pleased with him) from the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), who said: “On the Day of Resurrection, some of the Muslims will come with sins like mountains, but Allaah will forgive them and will put them (the sins) onto the Jews and Christians.” So this hadeeth is saheeh.
With regard to its meaning, al-Nawawi said in his commentary: “The meaning of this hadeeth is the same as the hadeeth narrated by Abu Hurayrah: “For each person there is a place in Paradise and a place in Hell.” When the believer enters Paradise, his place in Hell is taken over by the kaafir because he deserves that because of his kufr. The meaning of the phrase “your ransom from the Fire” is that you could have entered Hell, but this is your ransom because Allaah has decreed a certain number to fill it; when the kuffaar enter Hell because of their kufr and sins, this is like a ransom for the Muslims. With regard to the report, “On the Day of Resurrection, some of the Muslims will come with sins” – Allaah will forgive the Muslims these sins and will absolve them of them, and He will put the like of those sins onto the Jews and Christians because of their kufr and sins. So they will enter Hell because of their own actions, not because of the sins of the Muslims. This report has to be interpreted in this manner, because Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
“And no bearer of burdens shall bear another’s burden” [Faatir 35:18]
It may be that the meaning is: sins which the kuffaar innovated and initiated, because whoever starts a bad thing will bear a burden of sin like that of each person who does that thing."
Have a nice read :)
Nothing about substitution
Wow. If Muhammad can issue a crystal clear statement, and you're free to reinterpret it, am I free to reinterpret any of Muhammad's statements? Muhammad said that MUSLIMS WILL COME BEARING HEAPS OF SINS ON THEIR BACKS. So these are the sins of Muslims, right? Then Allah will order the angels to UNLOAD THE SINS FROM THEM, i.e. from the Muslims who committed them. He will then order the angels to PUT THOSE SINS ON THE JEWS AND THE CHRISTIANS.
According to Muhammad (and not according to your websites or commentators, whom you trust more than your prophet), Allah is going to take the sins of Muslims and put them on the Jews and Christians. Muhammad's claims don't get any clearer than this.
If you don't see substitutionary atonement here, then you have just declared that Muhammad's words are totally meaningless. You're going to believe whatever you want to believe about Islam, regardless of what Muhammad says. Well, two can play this game. Here goes.
When Muhammad said that Jesus didn't die on the cross, he really meant that Jesus did die on the cross. When Muhammad said that Jesus isn't God, he really meant that Jesus is God. When Muhammad claimed to be Allah's final prophet, he really meant that he is an evil deceiver, and that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad was coming after him. When Muhammad said that Allah is God, he really meant that Allah is Satan.
Kim, you have no ground for disagreeing with any of these claims, because you don't believe in following Muhammad's words. Instead, you believe in reinterpreting Muhammad's words to suit your liking. But if you get to reinterpret Muhammad's words to fit your views, then so can we.
Are you reading what you are posting?
Essentially you have agreed that allah is going to take your sins off of you, and place them on me, because what the heck, he was going to send me to hell anyway, so why not load a whole second set of luggage on my back.
Do you think that is very nice? Would you do that to me in real life?
Suppose this! Suppose you and I are ordering food in a resturant. We both have bills due, but the waiter winks at you and says, 'Never mind paying your bill. I will just add it to
donna60's tab, and she can pay it since she has to pay her own anyway.
Would you smile and slip on by, leaving me to pay your bill? Well, would you?
First, congratulations for cracking open a website and citing it instead of a youtube video link. I had lost hope.
Second, thank you for confirming you don't read what you post. The Hadith DOES say substitutionary atonement. When allah puts your sins on me and puts me into hellfire, I am taking your place in hell.
This occurs all the time with Muslims. They will scream to high heaven that you are misinterpreting something, and when they try to explain it they reiterate what you said and contradict their excuses.
Sometimes they will even just re-post what you said and think they have refuted you. Its fascinating! amusing, and frustrating!
True Jews before the coming of Christianity will go to paradise and true Christians before the coming of Islam will go to paradise. But those from Jews and Christians who rejected Islam after it was revealed to Muhammad pbuh will be punished by God (Allah) the Lord of Jesus, Moses Abraham, Solomon, David and Muhammad peace be upon all of them. How come you accept one prophet and reject other. We as Muslims believe in all of prophets and messengers without any exception and we believe in one God like belief of Moses, Jesus, Abraham, David, Solomon, and Muhammad (peace be upon all of them ) the god who doesn't have son or any partner. He is the only one God our creator. Jesus was one of his chosen Messenger not his son.
More than once does the Quran say one can't bear the sins of another (an attack on Christianity that has Jesus bearing the sins of all), yet, sahih (sound/authentic) Muslim hadith has Jews and Christians in the roll of Jesus Christ by bearing the sins of evil Muslims (sins as large as mountains). Islam is truly contradictory.
Obviously this is substitution and Kim copied and pasted from a Islamic question and answer website and didnt even give credit to the Sheik for trying to answer it which she copied and pasted here.
Second she seems to think that just talking means you have answered or becuase a sheik says something or fills space with words it is answered without looking or daring to read and judge or critically examine whether it is indeed an answer.
No it is not. Basically the weakness of the Sheiks amswer and his inability to do so is captured in these words from her post
"This report has to be interpreted in this manner, because" these words reveal a lot. It shows that the sheik is under felt obligation abd duress to reconcile contradictory views in Islam. That's why he says "this has to be interpreted this way"
In other words what he is really saying is this has to be reinterpreted we cannot tale this as what it clearly say but we must rework it to mean something else. Why?
Because koran says something else in another verse and we cannot have contradiction. But you do have contradiction.
And lastly he leaves off with
"It may be that the meaning is..."
Again showing that he cannot or rather doesnt want to accept the clear meaning according to the plain meaning of the words but must search for another one.
Thanks for sharing!
Truth About Muslims
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