All of this is allowed to happen when the wife has no excuse for being with him. And if she consistently persists in doing so then she is going to be punished as his wife and eventually divorced.
Why keep a woman if she has no desire in being with you when you ask her to make love? And she keeps denying her husband that right. I believe it's a fair punishment. It would be arrogant of a wife to keep denying her husband this right. . . .
If you truly loved your husband, why would you say no for no reason if he wants to make love with you?
It's understandable if you are sick, having your monthly courses, tired, sleepy, hungry..whatever. But the hadiths tell us about women who are arrogant or extremely disobedient and have no good reason.
Call me whatever you can think of, but I strongly believe that this is fair punishment.
Notice that Kim contradicts both Islam and her own scholars. Islam allows a woman to avoid sex if she is ill or menstruating. But Kim adds "tired, sleepy, hungry, whatever." In other words, Kim thinks a Muslim woman may refuse sex for all kinds of reasons, and she has therefore condemned her prophet, her religious texts, and her scholars, for they do not accept Kim's excuses as justifiable reasons for withholding sex.
Nevertheless, Kim agrees that a man may beat his wife, and even starve her, if she doesn't submit to his demands for sex. Kim says that sex is the man's "right," and that she has no "right" to refuse him sex.
But let's think about this. According to Kim and her scholars, marriage is an agreement between a man and a woman, whereby the man agrees to provide food to the woman, and the woman agrees to provide sex to the man. If the woman doesn't keep her end of the agreement, the man is no longer obligated to keep his end of the agreement. Hence, if she denies him sex, he can deny her food.
But what do we call it when a woman trades sex for something she wants or needs (e.g. money, food, shelter, etc.)? We call it "prostitution." According to Kim, Muslim women are long-term prostitutes who trade sex for food. When the women fail to honor the agreement, the contract is broken.
Shouldn't Muslims like Kim find it amazing that non-Muslims have a higher view of women and marriage than Muslims do? We even have more respect for Muslim women than the Qur'an does. We believe that the marriage relationship should be based on more than a "sex for food" bargain, and that men should have more respect for their wives than beating and starving them would suggest.
I saw this graph as a comparison of the definition of "marriage" as an argument for gay marriage. I wonder of some of the same marriage situations could be paralleled in Islam and their intolerance of gay marriage? It seems like Muhammad's definitions of "marriage" are similar if not the same.
David. Apparently your blog cuts off the end of the link I posted.
Copy and paste the pieces I guess...
I hope you all realize that this "Kim" is a troll. And loves the attention. Just letting you know.
You don't get the point though.
Marriage in Islam of course is supposed to be meaningful.
But there are going to be disobedient wives, and Islam has a way for dealing with them. Instead of allowing the Arab men use their culture to beat them to death or worse, there is a fair method in Islam and this applies to the times when the wife refuses to have sex with her husband for NO reason whatsoever.
And the reasons I listed in my other comment are valid ones. Prove me wrong??
Those are simple material rights that both husband and wife should have. And adultery in Islam is a big sin, and when your wife refuses to be with you continuously for no reason, then there will be a higher tendency to cheat on her and commit adultery.
Women are not simple sex objects in Islam.
"And among His signs is this, that He created for you mates from among yourselves, that you may dwell in tranquility with them, and He has put love and mercy between your hearts. Verily in that are signs for those who reflect." (Qur'an 30:21)
Allah says: “It is made lawful for you to have sexual relations with your wives on the on the night of the fasts. They are clothing for you and you are clothing for them…” [Sûrah al-Baqarah: 187]
"And the believers, men and women, are protecting friends of one another; they enjoin the right and forbid the wrong, and they establish worship and they pay the poor-due, and they obey Allah and His messenger; as for those, Allah will have mercy on them; Lo! Allah is Mighty, Wise. Allah hath promised to believers - men and women - gardens underwhich rivers flow, to dwell therein, and beautiful mansions in gardens of everlasting bliss; but the greatest bliss is the good pleasure of Allah: This is the supreme felicity." Qur'an [9 : 71 - 72]
"And give the women (on marriage) their Mahr as a free gift.
Qur'an" [4 : 4]
"If you had given the latter a cantar (of gold i.e. a great amount) for dower (Mahr) take not the least bit of it back ..."
Qur'an [4 : 20]
Narrated Ibn Abbas: "The Prophet, peace be upon him, said, `If anyone of you, when having a sexual intercourse with his wife says:
In the name of Allah! O Allah! Protect me from Satan and protect what you bestow upon us (i.e. an offspring) from Satan. and if it is destined that they should have a child, then Satan will never be able to harm him.'"
"Men shall take full care of women, because Allah has given the one more strength than the other, and because they support them from their means." Qur'an [4 : 34]
Narrated Aisha, God's messenger said: "Among the believers who show most perfect faith are those who have the best disposition, and are kindest to their families." [Tirmidhi]
Narrated Abu Huraira, God's messenger said: "The believers who show the most perfect faith are those who have the best disposition and the best of you are those who are best to their wives." [Tirmidhi]
Narrated Abdullah bin Amr bin Al-As: "Allah's Apostle, peace be upon him, said, `O Abdullah! Have I not been informed that you fast all the day and stand in prayer all night?' I said, `Yes, O Allah's Apostle!' He said, `Do not do that! Observe the fast sometimes and also leave them at other times; stand up for the prayer at night and also sleep at night. Your body has a right over you and your wife has a right over you.'" [Bukhari]
"Live with them in kindness; even if you dislike them, perhaps you dislike something in which God has place much good." Qur'an [4 : 19]
Kim,you said: "Those are simple material rights that both husband and wife should have."
My questions for you are as follows:
Is a woman allowed to beat her husband if he refuses to have sex with her?
Is a woman allowed to beat her husband if he refuses to give her food?
Apart from infidelity, you referred to other situations in which it is permissible for a woman to refuse sex, e.g. tired, hungry. Could you please provide sources that validate such reasons as excusable?
You said that the woman has no reason, how do you know?
If a woman simply doesn't feel like having sex, why should she be obliged to?
Is a husband allowed to force sex upon his wife if she refuses since you say it is his right?
Would you call such forced sex, rape?
Thank you in advance for your responses.
@Kim: You said: "But there are going to be disobedient wives, and Islam has a way for dealing with them. Instead of allowing the Arab men use their culture to beat them to death or worse, there is a fair method in Islam and this applies to the times when the wife refuses to have sex with her husband for NO reason whatsoever."
My goodness, Kim, couldn't your God just say :"Don't beat them, PERIOD! and if you do you will go to HELL!!" ?? What is so difficult about that? He commanded you not to drink wine or else you will go to hell! But he couldn't say don't beat your wife, AT ALL??? What do you mean by "Instead of allowing the Arab men use their culture to beat them to death or worse"?! I ask what did he do to stop them? He sanctions their beating!! He says it is OK to beat them.
And don't tell me that Arab men somehow cannot do without beating their wives! What nonsense!! Are they somehow an inferior race in your opinion? They have no self control?
How is it that in the Infidel land of the West where every tiny little incident of domestic violence is seriously prosecuted and recorded still the VAST VAST VAST MAJORITY of these infidel men somehow manage to go through their entire lives never having raised a finger against their wives since their criminal record is clean, but somehow Allah-fearing Arab Muslims cannot do without wife beating? Why infidels can manage and Muslims cannot?!
You know what I have to tell to you and your so-called explanation and justifications? Poppycock and baloney! You are trying to justify evil! Plain and simple!
You are a woman. I am a woman too. How do you condone the actions of a man usually much stronger than your sisters in Islam who beat them FOR WHAT EVER REASON THAT MAY BE?!
You see we civilized people don't give a hoot if Quran or Hadith put gradations or steps or gives acceptable degree of severity or acceptable reasons for beating the wife. We think no wife should EVER for ANY reason and in ANY shape or form or degree of severity be beaten and anything less than that is barbarity. So don't come back at us and tell that these phony and irrelevant qualifications like "First admonish her then separate her and then beat her" or "beat her with toothpick" or other stuff like that somehow justify or make OK this savage ruling of the Quran!
And all those Hadith that you mentioned about "Be good to your wives or family" blah blah.... They mean nothing before we find out what "being good" to your wife even mean in the lexicon and standards of Muslims at that time. You can be good also to your donkey or your cow! Meaning that you give it enough food and water and a warm shelter and don't work it to death! That's it! But the donkey is still an animal and it is beneath you and you are his boss and master!
When your prophet says "be good to your wives" he is kind of like saying "Come on guys! Don't abuse your privileges over them too much! Let them catch their breath from time to time!" I am not being uncharitable here. I interpret it this way in light of all the rest of Islamic teachings. Islam says that women are mentally deficient (like children), they cannot testify in court because they are apparently too dumb and forgetful, etc... They are considered subhuman! So if a man simply feeds and shelters them and pays them some pocket money and doesn't beat them to death he has already fulfilled his obligation of being good to his wives. Some high standards, ha?!
@ Kim: You also said: "And adultery in Islam is a big sin, and when your wife refuses to be with you continuously for no reason, then there will be a higher tendency to cheat on her and commit adultery.
Kim, o Kim! Don't make me laugh! Adultery is a big sin in Islam?! If the wife refuses to have sex with her husband he can simply go marry another wife. Up to four of them + concubines in many cases. It is very unlikely that all four wives and all concubines go on sex-strike all at once! So there is really no need what so ever for him to resort to beating if one refuses sex. He can go have sex with the other three wives and/or concubines.
By the way the most laughable of all is that all the way from wife No.2 to the last concubine are considered adulterous relationships according to our Christian and even secular western standards! But it is all fine and dandy in Islam! And yet you pretend that somehow Islam is so hard on adultery!!! If you can have this many women legitimately who needs to commit Islamic adultery? You must be some sort of maniac to want even more women!
We Christians have MUCH higher standards about adultery and no one is allowed to marry more than one spouse but yet we feel no need for a sanction to husbands to beat their wives if they refuse sex. We still think that the man should never raise a finger on her and if he even go out and sleep around he is guilty of sin! Period.
If a wife is always refusing to have sex then the problem has a root cause. It is ridiculous and medieval to try to solve it by a generous beating! Maybe she has some psychological or physiological problems. Maybe she hates her husband and already doesn't want to live with him, or maybe he is a bad lover and has to learn some skills. Beating solves non of those problems.
Anyway... think harder Kim! With these lousy reasoning you are not convincing anybody! And NEVER NEVER NEVER condone and justify aggression and domestic violence! It is beneath you as a lady and as a human being!
How is it mutually meaningful when one is dominant over the other and has permission to beat and starve and isolate the other if one demands something and the other has less power and authority?
Mr. Kim, like Mohammed and Allah have no concept of mutual admiration and respect. One must always be superior to the other. Which leads to strife. I am just sickened by this/ I have to stay away for a while.
Kim is just to destructive to my conscience and I am losing all hope for humanity! Good bye for a while. I cant take this backwardness anymore. It's like dealing with someone from bizzaro world.
He is so morally corrupt it is to much for me to tolerate. I am disgusted!
My but I'd love to know Kim's answers to all of those questions.
watch "submission" by ayaan hirsi alii
Might I add my input into this charade? A lot of people seem to be ripping into Islam's teaching because of the ayah regarding wives. Firstly, it's not a beating as in something to cause pain. It's more symbolic to show that you've reached your limit. Sadly though I still see many ignorant Muslim brothers who'll interpret this verse as a right to hit their wives (often severely) whenever they feel like it, which is against Islam.
We believe that Allah swt created women as a gift and mercy for us, which is why Allah swt gives men the responsibility of taking care of them. As the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) said in an authentic Hadith: The best of you are the ones who are the kindest to their wives.
Oh man you guys have to read "The Reliacne of the Traveler"
This book breaks down how much food and its equalvilant in cash a woman is entited to on a DAILY BASSIS. But only if she fullfill her marital duties.
It is trully sickning how Muslim men view woman and little girls.
Ask any Muslim if there is such a thing as marital RAPE, they will look at you like your stupid.
Say what you want about Michael Vick, but at least he provided RAPE STANDS for HIS FEMALE DOGS
Mahdi said: "Firstly, it's not a beating as in something to cause pain. It's more symbolic to show that you've reached your limit."
A symbolic beating, lol!
Sir I think you've reached the end of your limit of logic and fair reasoning.
Let us read surah 4:34 from the Charade Mahdi version:
"Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and symbolically scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great."
Thanks for perpetuating Kim's charade with your nonsensical interpretation Mahdi.
It seems that Mahdi would probably place 4:34 into the "mutashabihat, non-umm al kitab verse basket" *chuckle*
I appreciate that you don't want to beat your wife. But the Koranic verse using the word beat, is translated as scourge, by Picknall. A scourging is scarcely a light beating.
If the Koran is impossible to understand or translate correctly, where is the miracle?
Also, as a woman, why would I want to abandon Christianity, which creates the kindest, sweetest husbands on the earth, for a religion that teaches men to whack on me, for not coming immediately to their bed for sex, or divorces me because I get old?
Or forces me to share my husband?
Kim, one of my favorite Christian authors is Jim McGuiggan. His wife was ill for a long, long time, and he continued to love her, and take care of her, speak about her in a loving manner on his website, and even discuss the spiritual lessons she continued to teach him.
He always called her his beloved Ethel. The reason I brought this up is that the way that brother Jim describes his beloved Ethel's illness, I am not sure that she was able to tend to his physical needs. But it never occurred to him to commit adultery.
Why would I want to become a Muslim, and have to marry a Muslim man who could beat me or abuse me, when I could have a great Christian guy like brother Jim?
Yeah it;s not a beating as in how we perceive it. LOL! I couldn't stay away from this one Mahdi. Your another one incapable of intellectual integrity!
Muslim (4:2127) - Aisha narrates, Allah's Apostle "He struck me on the chest which caused me pain."
Abu Dawood Book 11, Number 2141:
Narrated Abdullah ibn AbuDhubab:
Iyas ibn Abdullah ibn AbuDhubab reported the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) as saying: Do not beat Allah's handmaidens, but when Umar came to the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) and said: Women have become emboldened towards their husbands, he (the Prophet) gave permission to beat them. Then many women came round the family of the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) complaining against their husbands. So the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) said: Many women have gone round Muhammad's family complaining against their husbands. They are not the best among you.
Book 11, Number 2142:
Narrated Umar ibn al-Khattab:
The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: A man will not be asked as to why he beat his wife.
I love the Muslim comic who parodies Rick James when he said "Cocaine Is a hell of a drug."
Well i say, "Islam, is a hell of a drug!" It takes away all ability to reason and have integrity!
@My Two Sense,
Thank you for sharing the link about marriage = . This link is so good and very summary.
@ Radical Moderate: You wrote : "It is trully sickning how Muslim men view woman and little girls."
LOL.....My friend, their wives WERE little girls. If you make a habit of marrying 6 y.o. -9 y.o. little girls you ARE dealing with little girls who might throw temper tantrums and be irrational and get spoiled if you are too nice to them! Imagine if we treated our children as our peers how spoiled they would have become! Hence the Quranic injunction "Beat them!"
Muslims call marriage by the name nikah. Do any of you know the meaning of this word nikah?
Check the following book.
So Nikah means "to penetrate err..u know what in this context"...
In Islam, unlike most non-Islamic religions where marriage has spiritual significance of some kind and some do not even allow divorce, marriage (in Islam) is purely a legal and social contract with no spiritual significance of any kind.
In Sharia this marriage contract is called aqd al-nikah (so called agreement to penetrate err...marriage).
In addition Islam has something called Mahr (money) paid to woman as per quran and marriage contract. I know the word..."prostitution" immediately comes to our non-muslim mind...and you wonder why Kim also thinks so?
Now on top of this, in Islam you have the condition that these so called wives cannot refuse sexual service to her so called husband...now why does this sound so similar to a prostitute? Is it just me? If a prostitute refuses sexual service after payment she would most probably get beaten black and blue in brothels...and so does a "Islamic wife"...hmmm...too much of a coincidence..
Islamic divorce..only man has the independent right to divorce because quran says man supports her financially (4:34)....You can find so many verses on how a man should divorce a woman, and not a single one the other way...I may be wrong if one can show one such verse...Woman can divorce only when man agrees to it or mullahs support her...
A prostitute has to honor her agreement with clients after payment and cannot break her agreement without law coming to her rescue...client can break agreement anytime...
Once divorced, Islamic woman moves to find new husband and accepts new Mahr (new free money) for sexual service provided to new husband...
Prostitute moves to new clients for definite sum of money once her service is provided for old clients..
Once divorced, Islamic woman must service new husband for Mahr (money), before she can service her old husband under nikah agreement...
Even a prostitute is not under any such compulsion...
There is another dimension in Islam and that is (التورية والمعاريض) approved lying ...
A husband could lie on his wife or vice versa by using approved lying
I can not find the English word for (التورية والمعاريض) ...
Everybody hear about 3 condtions of lying in Islam but the above opens the door for lying and that is the 4th one ...
Does a True God gives such a law?
check for example how Yusuf Ali translate this verse!
يَا أَيُّهَا النَّبِيُّ إِنَّا أَحْلَلْنَا لَكَ أَزْوَاجَكَ اللَّاتِي آتَيْتَ أُجُورَهُنَّ وَمَا مَلَكَتْ يَمِينُكَ مِمَّا أَفَاء اللَّهُ عَلَيْكَ وَبَنَاتِ عَمِّكَ وَبَنَاتِ عَمَّاتِكَ وَبَنَاتِ خَالِكَ وَبَنَاتِ خَالَاتِكَ اللَّاتِي هَاجَرْنَ مَعَكَ وَامْرَأَةً مُّؤْمِنَةً إِن وَهَبَتْ نَفْسَهَا لِلنَّبِيِّ إِنْ أَرَادَ النَّبِيُّ أَن يَسْتَنكِحَهَا خَالِصَةً لَّكَ مِن دُونِ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ قَدْ عَلِمْنَا مَا فَرَضْنَا عَلَيْهِمْ فِي أَزْوَاجِهِمْ وَمَا مَلَكَتْ أَيْمَانُهُمْ لِكَيْلَا يَكُونَ عَلَيْكَ حَرَجٌ وَكَانَ اللَّهُ غَفُوراً رَّحِيماً
33:50 O Prophet! We have made lawful to thee thy wives to whom thou hast paid their dowers; and those whom thy right hand possesses out of the prisoners of war whom God has assigned to thee; and daughters of thy paternal uncles and aunts, and daught ers of thy maternal uncles and aunts, who migrated (from Makka) with thee; and any believing woman who dedicates her soul to the Prophet if the Prophet wishes to wed her;- this only for thee, and not for the Believers (at large); We know what We have appointed for them as to their wives and the captives whom their right hands possess;- in order that there should be no difficulty for thee. And God is Oft- Forgiving, Most Merciful.
How you liked the "any believing woman who dedicates her soul to the Prophet"
She gave her soul!
I will leave it there ...
mahdi here is another for ya
Volume 7, Book 72, Number 715:
Rifa'a divorced his wife whereupon 'AbdurRahman bin Az-Zubair Al-Qurazi married her. 'Aisha said that the lady (came), wearing a green veil (and complained to her (Aisha) of her husband and showed her a green spot on her skin caused by beating). It was the habit of ladies to support each other, so when Allah's Apostle came, 'Aisha said, "I have not seen any woman suffering as much as the believing women. Look! Her skin is greener than her clothes!" When 'AbdurRahman heard that his wife had gone to the Prophet, he came with his two sons from another wife. She said, "By Allah! I have done no wrong to him but he is impotent and is as useless to me as this," holding and showing the fringe of her garment, 'Abdur-Rahman said, "By Allah, O Allah's Apostle! She has told a lie! I am very strong and can satisfy her but she is disobedient and wants to go back to Rifa'a." Allah's Apostle said, to her, "If that is your intention, then know that it is unlawful for you to remarry Rifa'a unless Abdur-Rahman has had sexual intercourse with you." Then the Prophet saw two boys with 'Abdur-Rahman and asked (him), "Are these your sons?" On that 'AbdurRahman said, "Yes." The Prophet said, "You claim what you claim (i.e.. that he is impotent)? But by Allah, these boys resemble him as a crow resembles a crow,"
I dont see Mohamed condemning this horrible beating. this would have been a great opportunity for Mohamed to be what Muslim wish he was instead of what he truly was, a monster of a human being!
My Two Sense: What's with the attacks on Christianity? This seems grossly out of place moral equivalence. Also, I suspect much of that chart is misrepresenting the actual context of the verses.
@Foolster41 and My Two Sense:
You see Foolster41 , My Two Sense used his little chart as a supposed attack on Christian stance for "traditional marriage" and against "gay marriage". But the funny thing about his cute little chart was that ALL of those "marriages"in that chart, bizarre as they were, were BETWEEN MALE AND FEMALE!! And that actually his chart goes on to prove and support our position that marriage in ALL OF HISTORY regardless of its variations regarding the number of the spouses in a marriage, etc... has ALWAYS been defined as a union between male and female of the human spices. So what gay activists now want is for us to suddenly change it to include the union between whoever loves whomever regardless of gender. Well... why should we? Just because they say so?
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