Tuesday, September 20, 2011

No Taqiyya in Islam?

In the comments section of a recent post, Kim said: "There's no such thing as Taqiyya in Islam."

I find myself absolutely baffled that so many Muslims are willing to deny the clear teachings of Islam, and to go against Muhammad and his companions on so many issues.

Consider Qur'an 3:28, which reads:

Let not the believers take disbelievers for their friends in preference to believers. Whoso doeth that hath no connection with Allah unless (it be) that ye but guard yourselves against them, taking (as it were) security. Allah biddeth you beware (only) of Himself. Unto Allah is the journeying.

Here the Qur'an commands Muslims not to be friends with unbelievers instead of believers, unless Muslims need to guard themselves from the unbelievers. What does this mean? Obviously, it means that Muslims aren't supposed to be friendly towards non-Muslims, but if Muslims are outnumbered and need to guard themselves from non-Muslims, they may pretend to be friendly.

But don't take my infidelicious word for it. Muhammad's companions and Islam's greatest commentators interpreted Surah 3:28 in exactly the same way. Ibn Kathir writes:

Allah prohibited His believing servants from becoming supporters of the disbelievers, or to take them as comrades with whom they develop friendships, rather than the believers. Allah warned against such behavior when He said, "And whoever does that, will never be helped by Allah in any way," meaning, whoever commits this act that Allah has prohibited, then Allah will discard him. Similarly, Allah said, "O you who believe! Take not My enemies and your enemies as friends, showing affection towards them," until, "And whosoever of you does that, then indeed he has gone astray from the straight path" ﴿60:1﴾. Allah said, "O you who believe! Take not for friends disbelievers instead of believers. Do you wish to offer Allah a manifest proof against yourselves" ﴿4:144﴾, and, "O you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians as friends, they are but friends of each other. And whoever befriends them, then surely, he is one of them" ﴿5:51﴾.

Allah said, after mentioning the fact that the faithful believers gave their support to the faithful believers among the Muhajirin, Ansar and Bedouins, "And those who disbelieve are allies of one another, (and) if you do not behave the same, there will be Fitnah and oppression on the earth, and a great mischief and corruption: ﴿8:73﴾.

Allah said next, "unless you indeed fear a danger from them" meaning, except those believers who in some areas or times fear for their safety from the disbelievers. In this case, such believers are allowed to show friendship to the disbelievers outwardly, but never inwardly. For instance, Al-Bukhari recorded that Abu Ad-Darda' said, "We smile in the face of some people although our hearts curse them." Al-Bukhari said that Al-Hasan said, "The Tuqyah is allowed until the Day of Resurrection." Allah said, "And Allah warns you against Himself," meaning, He warns you against His anger and the severe torment He prepared for those who give their support to His enemies, and those who have enmity with His friends, "And to Allah is the final return" meaning, the return is to Him and He will reward or punish each person according to their deeds.

So Muhammad's companions Abu ad-Darda and al-Hasan both disagree with Kim. Al-Hasan even says that Taqiyya is allowed until the Day of Resurrection! Didn't anyone bother to tell Muhammad's companions that there is no Taqiyya in Islam?

Perhaps we'll find a different interpretation in Tafsir Jalalayn:

Let not the believers take the disbelievers as patrons, rather than, that is, instead of, the believers — for whoever does that, that is, [whoever] takes them as patrons, does not belong to, the religion of, God in anyway — unless you protect yourselves against them, as a safeguard (tuqātan, ‘as a safeguard’, is the verbal noun from taqiyyatan), that is to say, [unless] you fear something, in which case you may show patronage to them through words, but not in your hearts: this was before the hegemony of Islam and [the dispensation] applies to any individual residing in a land with no say in it. God warns you, He instills fear in you, of His Self, [warning] that He may be wrathful with you if you take them as patrons; and to God is the journey’s end, the return, and He will requite you.

Hmmm. Here we have the same interpretation as that found in Tafsir Ibn Kathir. Jalal even points out that the word used is the verbal noun form of taqiyyatan (taqiyya!). This is quite strange, since there is no taqiyya in Islam.

Surely someone must agree with Westernized Muslims. Let's turn to Muhammad's companion Ibn Abbas to dispel the myths of Abu ad-Darda, al-Hasan, Ibn Kathir, and Jalal:

(Let not the believers take) the believers ought not to take [the hypocrites:] 'Abdullah Ibn Ubayy and his companions [and] (disbelievers) the Jews (for their friends) so as to become mighty and honourable (in preference to believers) who are sincere. (Whoso doeth that) seeking might and honour [by taking the hypocrites and disbelievers as friends] (hath no connection with Allah) has no honour, mercy or protection from Allah (unless (it be) that ye but guard yourselves against them) save yourselves from them, (taking (as it were) security) saving yourselves from them by speaking in a friendly way towards them with, while your hearts dislikes this. (Allah bideth you beware (only) of Himself) regarding the shunning of unlawful killing, unlawful sex, unlawful property, consuming intoxicants, false testimony and associating partners with Allah. (Unto Allah is the journeying) the return after death.

Darn! Ibn Abbas gives the same interpretation as everyone else. It seems that none of Muhammad's companions correctly understood the verse, and that Islam's greatest commentators couldn't understand it either. It's a good thing that we now have Westernized Muslims who know that when Allah allows Muslims to use taqiyya in 3:28, he really means, "There's no taqiyya in Islam." I feel much better knowing that after nearly 1400 years, someone finally understands Islam.

85 comments:

Search 4 Truth said...

David here are a couple good videos of how Muslims dont know anything about Taqiyya.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMFSfiseaJY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9y9ZvmpzihI&feature=related

I know, I know Kim, your the greatest scholar that supersedes all previous scholars and rulings.

We know Kim. So when is your authoritative scholarly report on Sharia and Taqiyya and all things Islamic come out?

I hope your in the West, we will probably have to protect you from slaughter for apostasy and you will be labeled a kaffre.


I dont know if that was sarcastic enough.

Editor or Nitemare said...

Actually Kim got his information from these terrorists.

http://thedebateinitiative.com/2011/08/09/ex-muslim-refutes-islamophobic-propaganda-on-taqiyya-and-abrogation/

Kim said...

thedebateinitiative are terrorists how?


Lying to protect yourself in a dangerous situation is acceptable.
Is that what you call Taqiyya, ? :)

-Lying about Islam to spread it is forbidden......-

Simple as that..

Kim said...

In the first video he didn't lie.
Drinking alcohol in Islam is a big sin but it doesn't make you an apostate/disbeliever.

Then he told him about the punishment for drinking it afterwards. How is that Taqiyya?

2nd video: involved lying to keep the family united out of love when it is necessary and telling your wife is beautiful etc. Also lying to the enemy about your combat operations.

How are any of those situations harmful unless you're biased against Islam?

Baron Eddie said...

Search 4 Truth ... by the way the second video is correct.

lying in Islam has these 3 cases plus a thing called "Al ma arith, wa Al Torya" المعاريض والتورية

basically it allows them to lie in a lot of cases ... it is an open lie line.

I really don't know the English translation for these two words right now ...

I give you an example for it ...

if someone came and knock at the door of Mr. A

now Mr. A does not want
to see Mr. B
so he tells his son that

and his son answered and opened the door.

Mr. B asked is Mr. A at home?

the son after opens the door and say "Mr. A is not here"
that does not consider a lie because the son of Mr. A
said "not here" with his attention "not here at that spot"
and he did not say not here in the house ...

Kim said...

I happened to come by an allegation that the Quran is immoral because it describes how the Houris in Paradise look like even though it's mentioned only one time as far as I know.

I just read the Songs of Solomon in the 21st Century King James version, and I'm amazed! (no disrespect towards the bible).

Baron Eddie said...

the Not did not appear in my last comment ... and this is how it should have been

(Search 4 Truth ... by the way the second video is NOT correct.

lying in Islam has these 3 cases plus a thing called "Al ma arith, wa Al Torya" المعاريض والتورية

basically it allows them to lie in a lot of cases ... it is an open lie line.

I really don't know the English translation for these two words right now ...

I give you an example for it ...

if someone came and knock at the door of Mr. A

now Mr. A does not want
to see Mr. B
so he tells his son that

and his son answered and opened the door.

Mr. B asked is Mr. A at home?

the son after opens the door and say "Mr. A is not here"
that does not consider a lie because the son of Mr. A
said "not here" with his attention "not here at that spot"
and he did not say not here in the house ...)

Search 4 Truth said...

@ kim

Lets review Kim's tactics. Lie, demonize the people who are critical and objective, deflect, lie again, point the finder, then hide.

Kim you have yet to provide evidence to support your position.

The first video provided a scenario where a Muslim lied to another person in order to get him to accept Islam. And then the result was the Muslim lied and threatened him with death if he left Islam.

Are you completely out of your mind? How is that not a lie?

The Muslim told the man that he could continue to drink even if he accepted Islam, and then when the man did, the Muslim told him he would be punished for drinking.

What and how can you reason this in your mind. Is it cognitive dissonance? You have just exposed yourself as completely incapable of objective reasoning, critical thinking and intellectual integrity!

Kim are you trying to make Islam and Muslims look bad? I think your a double spy for those evil Christians!

Are we all suppose to continue to accept your claims without any substantiation?

All I can say is, WOW!

Search 4 Truth said...

@ kim The first video provides evidence to lie about Islam in order to decieb=ve non Muslims into the cult of Islam.

the second video provides evidence that all non Muslims are the enemy, which is consistent with the first video. Lying is wrong. If your cult was so perfect and righteous why would anyone have to lie about it in order to distort the true teachings in order to get people to join the cult?

These instances and teachings should make everyone flee from Islam, because it teaches dishonesty in order to propagate Islam! How can you be so willfully ignorant?

Doesnt this action of lying for Islam cause one to question the things a Muslim tells them? Since everything a Muslim tells you is suspect, Islam is suspect. therefore Muslims cannot be trusted to tell the truth about Islam! Hence Taqiyya!

I mean really? How is this not clear? Please God help this person to use her God given brain!

Search 4 Truth said...

@ Kim

Now the deflection toward the Bible. the Song of Solomon does not in any way give permission to rape or commit adultery with captives and slaves of those whom thy right hand possesses. It is a Parable. A story! Not commands like these evil commands, Now tell me what is wrong with telling stories and parables to teach lessons, compared to direct commands and permission to enslave, rape, adultery, kidnapping and ransoming?

Some of the Companions of the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) were reluctant to have intercourse with the female captives in the presence of their husbands who were unbelievers. So Allah, the Exalted, sent down the Qur’anic verse: (Sura 4:24) "And all married women (are forbidden) unto you save those (captives) whom your right hands possess." (Abu Dawud 2150, also Muslim 3433)

"We went out with Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) on the expedition to the Bi'l-Mustaliq and took captive some excellent Arab women; and we desired them, for we were suffering from the absence of our wives, (but at the same time) we also desired ransom for them. So we decided to have sexual intercourse with them but by observing 'azl (Withdrawing the male sexual organ before emission of semen to avoid-conception). But we said: We are doing an act whereas Allah's Messenger is amongst us; why not ask him? So we asked Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him), and he said: It does not matter" (Sahih Muslim 3371)

Sophie said...

I think most Muslims earnestly believe, though, that taqiyya isn't part of their faith. Imams who know about it probably don't teach it because it would alienate their congregations. After all, if you find out that someone thinks it's OK to lie, how can you ever know that they are being honest with you? Most normal people of all races and religions are uncomfortable with deception and understand inherently that it's immoral. Even our bodies were made for honesty. When we lie, our pulses race, we sweat, we avoid eye contact, etc etc.

There are some very obvious taqiyya practitioners out there, but now and again people who dislike Islam use the accusation of taqiyya to shut down debate and discredit opposing views without actually confronting them, the way that CAIR etc throw around the term 'Islamophobia'. Even I have been accused (by a non-Muslim)of practicing taqiyya before, on a different forum, solely because I wrote a comment that expressed a view that he didn't like.

Search 4 Truth said...

@ Kim, what would you say if this tactic was used by Evangelists against Muslims?

Please answer, Please respond. Please expose your hypocrisy!

Kim said...

Is this what Wood and his group want the future of America to be?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Blw-ZaY_V70

Search 4 Truth said...

@ Kim, What would you say if this tactic was used by Evangelists against Muslims?

Please answer, Please respond. Please expose your hypocrisy!

And dont tell me they ply them with money. Christian organizations dwarf Islamic donations. And the Zakat \can only be used for Muslims. Which is another form of bigotry from your Satanic death cult. Can anyone imagine be a member of a faith that forbids their donations go to non members of their faith? That is pure bigotry!

And if you disagree than you are suffering from a serious delusion of the soul!

KLV said...

‘Taqiyya’: how Islamic extremists deceive the West
http://www.ci-ce-ct.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=3%3Ataqiyya-how-islamic-extremists-deceive-the-west&catid=2%3Ataqiyya&Itemid=2

Excerpt:

Early Islamic texts refer to the covert nature of taqiyya:

“Al Taqiyya is with the tongue only; not the heart. A believer can make any statement as long as the ‘heart is comfortable …”; “God gave the believers freedom of movement by takiyya; therefore conceal thyself …”; “Takiyya is a cloak for the believer: he who has no religion has no takiyya, associate your opponents only outwardly and oppose them inwardly”.

Related terms include: protection of the secret (hifz-al sirr), secrecy (katm or kitman), deception (making something ambiguous) and hiding the real state of one’s convictions (talbis). Early Muslim sects, the Najadt and the Kharjites, referred to particular regions outside their communities as “the abode of dissimulation” (dar al taqiyya).

A contemporary definition of taqiyya is religiously-sanctioned deception for the purposes of concealing terrorism. German terrorism expert and Middle East scholar, Basam Tibi, defined taqiyya as: “You are two-faced. You hate me, but you smile at me.”

Bernard Lewis — the pre-eminent Middle East historian and scholar, Cleveland E. Dodge Professor of Near East Studies Emeritus at Princeton University – defined taqiyya in his early study of the Assassins (1090-1275), a prototypical Islamic terrorist organisation which is discussed in greater detail below. He said:5

“The term taqiyya, caution, precaution, denotes an Islamic concept of dispensation – the idea that under compulsion or menace, a believer may be dispensed from fulfilling certain conditions of religion … It was used to justify the concealment of beliefs likely to arouse the hostility of the authorities or the populace.”

Taqiyya informs Shia and Sunni political and religious discourse. The Sunni Moroscos survived in Spain by using taqiyya and washing off holy water after attending mass. Cox and Marks in their monograph, The West, Islam and Islamism, note that taqiyya is referred to in Sunni religious and political discourse and cite Surrah 16:106, about which al Atabari, the famed Sunni commentator, said: “If anyone is compelled and professes unbelief with his tongue, while his heart contradicts him, to escape his enemies, no blame falls on him, because God takes his servants as their hearts believe”. Cox and Marks also note:6

Thus, in extreme circumstances, deception and lying are permitted and the end justifies the means. These doctrines can clearly provide religious justification for deliberate deception – provided that the situation is perceived as threatening, which many Islamists believe is currently the case. The doctrine [taqiyya] could apply to those, for example, who quote a peaceful or tolerant verse from the Koran to show Islam as a religion of peace but fail to mention other verses which are warlike or intolerant”.

Taqiyya is also used by many Middle Eastern ruling elites and sects, including the Yezdi, Alaawites (the present Syrian ruling family), Sabaeans and the Druze whose use of taqiyya dates back to c. 966-1021. In the harsh Middle East environment, taqiyya became a necessary protection to conceal esoteric beliefs or terrorist plans and maintain operational security.

KLV said...

How Taqiyya Alters Islam's Rules of War
Defeating Jihadist Terrorism
by Raymond Ibrahim
Middle East Quarterly
Winter 2010, pp. 3-13
http://www.meforum.org/2538/taqiyya-islam-rules-of-war

Excerpt:

Taqiyya in Qur'anic Revelation

The Qur'an itself is further testimony to taqiyya. Since God is believed to be the revealer of these verses, he is by default seen as the ultimate perpetrator of deceit—which is not surprising since he is described in the Qur'an as the best makar, that is, the best deceiver or schemer (e.g., 3:54, 8:30, 10:21).

While other scriptures contain contradictions, the Qur'an is the only holy book whose commentators have evolved a doctrine to account for the very visible shifts which occur from one injunction to another. No careful reader will remain unaware of the many contradictory verses in the Qur'an, most specifically the way in which peaceful and tolerant verses lie almost side by side with violent and intolerant ones. The ulema were initially baffled as to which verses to codify into the Shari'a worldview—the one that states there is no coercion in religion (2:256), or the ones that command believers to fight all non-Muslims till they either convert, or at least submit, to Islam (8:39, 9:5, 9:29). To get out of this quandary, the commentators developed the doctrine of abrogation, which essentially maintains that verses revealed later in Muhammad's career take precedence over earlier ones whenever there is a discrepancy. In order to document which verses abrogated which, a religious science devoted to the chronology of the Qur'an's verses evolved (known as an-Nasikh wa'l Mansukh, the abrogater and the abrogated).

But why the contradiction in the first place? The standard view is that in the early years of Islam, since Muhammad and his community were far outnumbered by their infidel competitors while living next to them in Mecca, a message of peace and coexistence was in order. However, after the Muslims migrated to Medina in 622 and grew in military strength, verses inciting them to go on the offensive were slowly "revealed"—in principle, sent down from God—always commensurate with Islam's growing capabilities. In juridical texts, these are categorized in stages: passivity vis-á-vis aggression; permission to fight back against aggressors; commands to fight aggressors; commands to fight all non-Muslims, whether the latter begin aggressions or not.[20] Growing Muslim might is the only variable that explains this progressive change in policy.

Other scholars put a gloss on this by arguing that over a twenty-two year period, the Qur'an was revealed piecemeal, from passive and spiritual verses to legal prescriptions and injunctions to spread the faith through jihad and conquest, simply to acclimate early Muslim converts to the duties of Islam, lest they be discouraged at the outset by the dramatic obligations that would appear in later verses.[21] Verses revealed towards the end of Muhammad's career—such as, "Warfare is prescribed for you though you hate it"[22]—would have been out of place when warfare was actually out of the question.

However interpreted, the standard view on Qur'anic abrogation concerning war and peace verses is that when Muslims are weak and in a minority position, they should preach and behave according to the ethos of the Meccan verses (peace and tolerance); when strong, however, they should go on the offensive on the basis of what is commanded in the Medinan verses (war and conquest). The vicissitudes of Islamic history are a testimony to this dichotomy, best captured by the popular Muslim notion, based on a hadith, that, if possible, jihad should be performed by the hand (force), if not, then by the tongue (through preaching); and, if that is not possible, then with the heart or one's intentions.[23]

Mahdi said...

Good work David in taking things out of context. The verse you posted mentions that we shouldn't take non-Muslims over Muslims as gaurdians and we may lie about outlr faith IF we FEAR FOR OUR LIVES IN EXTREME SITUATIONS.

Here's a simple challenge David; Can you point to me a verse from the Quran that encourages us to lie about Islam when giving Da'wah?

Deleting said...

Hey Kim how about you quit attacking David and other people smart enough not to convert to islam and maybe, oh, I don't know, come up with an argument with some substance?
If you're the best representative islam your vapid responses show Islam to be a religion guaranteed to lower your I.Q, by at least fifty points.
And trust me, fifty points is something not many can afford to lose.
You can't offer anything meaningful other than an ad hominem attack or more lies and for what?
A whole religion based on a LIE!?! ALLAH IS NOT GOD BECAUSE MOHAMMED MADE up ALLAH AND ISLAM TO GET POLITICAL CONTROL OVER THE KAABA!
Get it through your head and get on with your life!

Baron Eddie said...

somebody is trying to change the subject

KLV said...

Hudna is also used in combination with Taqiyya. When "Palestinians" declare a "truce," Westerners are given the impression it is for the purposes of negotiating peace. In reality it is just a truce for purposes of regrouping and rearming.

Tactical Hudna and Islamist Intolerance
by Denis MacEoin
Middle East Quarterly
Summer 2008, pp. 39-48
http://www.meforum.org/1925/tactical-hudna-and-islamist-intolerance

Excerpt:

The use by Westerners of the word hudna highlights an anomaly. Whenever journalists, diplomats, or commentators covering the Middle East use a non-English word, it will almost always be Arabic or perhaps Persian; seldom do they use any Hebrew words. Never has a U.S. or British newspaper, for example, used the Hebrew word for cease-fire (hafsakat esh). This is odd as Israel is the other side to these cease-fires. The majority of Arabic terms reproduced in Western language newspapers are concerned with either military topics (jihad, mujahideen, fida'iyin, shahid)[1] or religious affairs (fatwa, mulla, ulema, ayatollah, Shari'a, Allahu akbar).[2] There is nothing wrong with borrowing Arabic words. However, doing so without understanding the word's nuance and historical development will render deficient any understanding of that word's true meaning.

Here, it might be possible to consider hudna somewhat of an exception—it can be translated accurately as truce or cease-fire. Its contemporary usage — at least in English and other European languages — is exclusive to the conflict between Israel and its adversaries, whether Islamist terror groups in Gaza, the West Bank, or southern Lebanon, or states such as Syria. In Iran, it is used alongside the Persian term aramesh.[3] Still, hudna retains a historical context that colors its meaning, if not in Western papers, then in Arabs' understanding.

The concept of hudna deserves a close look: It is not a Qur'anic term, nor is it the only Arabic word for a cease-fire or truce; others include: muhadana, muwada'a, muhla, musalaha, musalama, mutaraka, and sulh. But hudna is the most prominent. It is the first word used in Muslim history to mean cease-fire, specifically in the context of the seventh century Truce or Treaty of al-Hudaybiyya, often termed the Sulh al-Hudaybiyya (peace of al-Hudaybiyya).

Named after a village outside Mecca, the truce came six years after Muhammad and his followers abandoned Mecca for Yathrib, today's Medina. This move, known as the hijra (emigration) is of enormous significance for the classical understanding of jihad, inasmuch as it sets a pattern of retreat followed by regrouping and rearming, which permits an attack on the territory previously left behind.[4] In March 628 C.E., Muhammad and his followers sought to return to Mecca to perform a pilgrimage. At Hudaybiyya, Muhammad "marched till he reached al-Hudaybiyya which lies at the limit of the Haram [sacred territory of Mecca] area at a distance of nine miles from Mecca."[5]Muhammad and the rulers of Mecca, most of whom had yet to convert to Islam, negotiated a truce, the essence of which was to permit the Muslims to return unarmed on pilgrimage each year for the next decade. It came to an end two years later, however, following an infraction by a tribe allied to the Meccans. In 630, Muhammad entered Mecca with a small, armed force and took the city peacefully. Hudna, in other words, amounted to a temporary truce.

Kim said...

Search 4 Truth, what do you mean?
If you used Taqiyya to protect your life from torture or death I wouldn't blame you. If you used it in military battles against Muslims I wouldn't blame you..If you used it to save your family from falling apart or to prevent a divorce I wouldn't blame you.

Lying about your religion in order to spread it ( invented by the Shias) then you're a hypocrite. Simple.

David Wood said...

Hi Mahdi,

I'll probably answer your objections in a separate post, but I have a quick question. Where do you see "guardians" in 3:28?

My Two Sense said...

David. "infidelicious"??? So... it taastes like bacon? LOL

Baron Eddie said...

Kim ... does this guy looks
like Shia ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMFSfiseaJY&feature=related

This Clerics is bragging about a Muslim man who deceived a Jew into Islam ...

Deleting said...

And yet Kim, Jesus said in the bible if you try to save your life you will lose it and if you lose your life for MY SAKE (Not ALLAHS, NOT MOHAMMAD's) you will find it.

Jesus didn't lie and he never okay'd lying. As a matter of fact he said The thief comes to LIE, KILL and DESTROY. I ( NOT ALLAH AND NOT MOHAMMED) came so you could live life and live it more abundantly.

Deleting said...

hmmm.... bacon.
Kim/Madhi you don't know what your missing.
Anytime you want a piece of the pig let me know!!!
Call nothing unclean the lord has made clean!

Kim said...

Baron Eddie:

Kim ... does this guy looks
like Shia ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMFSfiseaJY&feature=related

This Clerics is bragging about a Muslim man who deceived a Jew into Islam ...





The Jew wanted to be a Muslim before the Muslim even came to him. He was just worried about the alcohol problem.




And for all of you telling me that Jesus loves me and died for my sins, does that mean I can go around being arrogant and asking Muslims to eat bacon, thereby insulting them. Would the Christianity version of Jesus accept loving behavior or arrogant behavior?

If you're going to convince me that Christianity is true and that Jesus loves me, then start by loving me yourself and show that. Just a tip :)

Baron Eddie said...

you did not answer the question ...

Was he A Shia ?

I am not convincing you to be a Christian ...

You already know what Jesus' message is ...

And that is the most important thing ... and now it is between you and God.

All I can do is pray for you.

I only show what a deceptive teaching of Islam ...

you missed the most important part of the movie ...

The Muslim threatens the Jew to kill him if he drinks or apostates

Deleting said...

Kim you've never read the new testament have you?
Jesus verbally roasted the Pharisees because they had the same arrogant attitude you've given to other people on this board, funny how you really don't like the taste of your own medicine.
As for accepting the real Jesus, umm, you were never planning to do it. You came on this board with a polemic agenda, one that a lot of people called you out on and stand by.
You're still practicing Taqiyya even though you say you haven't. You're still defending a religion that violently oppresses people and you've managed to insult everyone you can on this board when you get a chance.
Love, by the way, does not mean swallowing the crap someone shovels at you to get them to accept their ideas. Nor does it mean you're a pushover. It means standing up for what's right and telling them bluntly they're wrong.

As for the bacon... Lighten up.

Mahdi said...

Hello David, I'm sorry if I sounded aggressive in my previous post.

The word "Awliyaa" in Arabic (found in that ayah) can be translated as 'Guardians' or 'protectors'. If you will, could you point out to me these "clear teachings of Islam" that state we should lie about our Deen when giving Da'Wah?

Or would you rather have me point out a special form of Taqqiya found in the Bible regarding the preachings of Christ?

"But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice. Yes, and I will continue to rejoice," (Philippians 1:18)

David Wood said...

Mahdi,

Interesting. You just committed shirk. Qur'an 10:62 says: "Lo! verily the friends of Allah are (those) on whom fear (cometh) not, nor do they grieve!"

According to you, this verse refers to Allah's guardians/protectors (rather than "friends"), meaning that Allah needs protection from beings more powerful than him. Perhaps we should be worshiping those beings, rather than the much weaker deity Allah.

You still seem confused about taqiyya. It's simple really. According to the Qur'an, Muslims aren't supposed to be friends with non-Muslims. Muslims are commanded to fight and subjugate non-Muslims. But some Muslims live in areas where they form a minority, and where they can't walk around announcing their true intentions. That is, they can't say, "Hello, unbelievers. We're going to subjugate all of you one day. If you resist, we'll slaughter your men and rape your women, as the Qur'an teaches." This would put such Muslims in danger. Hence, the Qur'an allows them to conceal their true intentions, smiling in the faces of unbelievers, while cursing them inwardly.

This is why Zakir Naik tells Westerners that Islam promotes free speech and freedom of religion, but he tells Muslims the opposite. He's concealing the true nature of Islam in order to protect Islam from negative repercussions. You can say you disagree, but the Qur'an, Muhammad's companions, and your greatest commentators are all on my side. If you hadn't been Westernized, you'd agree with me too.

andy bell said...

It's funny that no one sees the irony in this post. By saying that there is "no taqiyya in Islam"---IS taqiyya. Muslims love to lie. It stems from that Arab ethos. That's why you see the propensity towards conspiracy theories. In a shame/honor culture, as islam is, lying to save face (sharaf and wahj) is accepted.

CristoTeAma said...

Is this what Kim and his nonsense reasoning wants for America?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdLCZQBAl_w

CristoTeAma said...

Kim said..
"And for all of you telling me that Jesus loves me and died for my sins, does that mean I can go around being arrogant and asking Muslims to eat bacon, thereby insulting them. Would the Christianity version of Jesus accept loving behavior or arrogant behavior?

If you're going to convince me that Christianity is true and that Jesus loves me, then start by loving me yourself and show that. Just a tip :)"

Hmm so we can apply ur same reasoning the other way. If muslims say Islam is not about lying how come all we can find in u and others is that, u should start being consistent, just a tip =P

CristoTeAma said...

Mahdi said.
Or would you rather have me point
out a special form of Taqqiya found in the Bible regarding the preachings of Christ?

"But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice. Yes, and I will continue to rejoice," (Philippians 1:18)

You see Madhi, when you use these tactics you show how deshonest you are, because when we read the context:

"15 It is true that some preach Christ out of envy and rivalry, but others out of goodwill. 16 The latter do so out of love, knowing that I am put here for the defense of the gospel. 17 The former preach Christ out of selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing that they can stir up trouble for me while I am in chains. 18 But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice.

Yes, and I will continue to rejoice,"

It's clear that Paul isn't talking about "Christians" lying about the gospel, saying in example that Jesus commanded us to kill non-christians, Paul is talking about "christians" preaching the real Gospel, but doing it because of their own low desires and not for love so it's about the motives(it would be like me doing debates for christianity, yet doing it because i just like to fight and not to praise god). So if you want to make it seen like the taqiyya command you have in the quran and hadiths, i must tell that you are way too far to get it.

My Two Sense said...

"infidelicious" reminds me of when Homer Simpson said "sacraliscous" when he skipped church one Sunday to make his super waffle... then he wrapped it around an entire stick of butter and ate it.

Hazakim1 said...

Song of Solomon!?!? LOL....A love letter between a husband and wife, speaking of the intimacy God intended for them, is GREAT and shows men how to love their wives. What is wrong with this? To make heaven into a celestial red light district, however, is clearly a tactic to get more men to "join" your religion. You cannot compare the beauty of Song of Solomon with the freak nasty houris of Islam. Fail.

Mahdi said...

David,

No I did not. The word "Awliya" comes from the word "Wali", which can mean both a close friend and guardian/protector. When Allah calls the believers "Awliya Allah" it's Allah establishing his friendship with the believers. You'll find that word "Wali" used when Allah refers to pagans who took their idols as a "Wali" (guardian/protector) and that same word used when Allah calls his believers as friends.

Regardless, you still haven't exactly pointed out where in our Deen is it encouraged (or even accepted) for us to lie about our faith when teaching people about...our faith. You merely put in your own synopsis of what Muslims do when they're the minority, which doesn't constitute as evidence. Our intention isn't to kill people or rape women because of their faith. As Muslims, non-Muslims are free to practice their Religion when living in Muslim countries.

Ironically, according to the Bible, God explicitly orders his followers to not only kill disbelievers, but to smash their children against rocks and to rape their women in front of them [disbelievers] as further punishment (this can be found in Isaiah 13:16.)

The problem is, missionaries such as yourself have started to implement this circular mentality that any Muslim who practices good is merely wearing a mask to conceal his true intentions of destroying the west and if we confess our innocence and provide proof that we're not out to kill them in their sleep then that's further evidence of our guilt.

It's funny how Christian missionaries know more about Taqqiya than Muslims who allegedly are the ones supposed to be practicing it in the first place.

Kim said...

Hazakim1,

I suggest you read all of it today. Hopefully you find that to be a good time to be with the Bible.

Search 4 Truth said...

So let's see, first Kim says adamantly there is no such thing as Taqiyya, Then she gives conditions in which you can use taqiyya.

Wow, the hypocrisy and self rebuttal is amazing,

Secondly the Muslim who lied to the Jew and misrepresented Islam in order to get him to convert to Islam is not lying?

Then what is it Kim? Is saying you can do something in Islam to a non Muslim in order to get him to convert not lying or deception?
If not how would you define it?

Thirdly, Let's say an Evangelist told a Muslim that Christianity accepts Mohamed as the final prophet in order to get the Muslim to apostate from Islam to Christ?

What would you call that?

The Muslim mind is a fascinating thing to watch. Fascinating and absurd!

Search 4 Truth said...

@ Kim we love you, thats why we DON'T lie to you. we tell you the truth no matter how painful it is.

Just as if you had a sibling or friend who was addicted to drugs, you wouldnt tel them to keep using the drus and everything is going to be ok.

Islam is the worst type of drug, it is the worst type of deception. It is illogical, immoral, intolerant, backward, draconian, and quite frankly, evil.

So we love you so much we spend our time trying to get it through your head how inconsistent and backward Islam is! But you cling to lies. And you said there is no taqqiya now your saying there are conditions for taqiyya. How do you reconcile this in your mind?

But before you respond to this, please respond to my last post! Peace!

Fernando said...

Hi Mahdi...

aboutte Is. 13:17...

the text simple states that due to Israel lack of faith in G-d it will be inevitable that it's enemies will behave in thate way (this is not eben exegesis, its the litteral reading off the text)... so: are you saying thate the enemies of G-d'a people are doing God's will? humm... that explains a lot from your, and muslim, psique...

can you place more verses from the Bible? I'll be eager to explain them to you...

may our common G-d, the Holly Trinity, bless you and your family...

Search 4 Truth said...

@ Mahdi, I thought Allah brought you a clear message. Why would an all contradict himself by revealing his final message in a language were the words have multiple meanings? Allah had no foresight. If the word has multiple meanings how could Allah have sent a clear message?

11:1 Alif, Lam, Ra. [This is] a Book whose verses are perfected and then presented in detail from [one who is] Wise and Acquainted.

12:1 Alif, Lam, Ra. These are the verses of the clear Book.

27:1 Ta, Seen. These are the verses of the Qur'an and a clear Book


Now for your logical fallacies please.

filthykafir said...

I know it's wicked of me, but David, I do so like it when you use irony. It's so... well, effective -- not to mention deliciously satisfying.

CristoTeAma said...

Madhi again in his ignorance or Taqiyya said..

"Ironically, according to the Bible, God explicitly orders his followers to not only kill disbelievers..etc"

Since we have such a great book called BIBLE we can find the same prediction even better explained in Isaiah 47 and Jeremiah 50 and i will quote some interesting stuffs:

Isaiah 47:6 I was angry with my people
and desecrated my inheritance;
I gave them into your hand,
and you showed them no mercy.
Even on the aged
you laid a very heavy yoke.
7 You said, ‘I am forever—
the eternal queen!’
But you did not consider these things
or reflect on what might happen.
You have trusted in your wickedness
and have said, ‘No one sees me.’
Your wisdom and knowledge mislead you
when you say to yourself,
‘I am, and there is none besides me.’
11 Disaster will come upon you,
and you will not know how to conjure it away.
A calamity will fall upon you
that you cannot ward off with a ransom;
a catastrophe you cannot foresee
will suddenly come upon you.

12 “Keep on, then, with your magic spells
and with your many sorceries,
which you have labored at since childhood.
Perhaps you will succeed,
perhaps you will cause terror.


So first than all, here is YHWH the almighty making Justice toward the ppl of Babylon who were everything but just toward his people (Israel), and who were wicked in their practices.(i must say that at this moment the countries more alike to Babylon are the muslims countries considering their hatred toward Jews and Israel, i just wanted to point that out)

CristoTeAma said...

But now let's see who are the ones raping and killing, etc etc...

Jeremiah 50:2 “Announce and proclaim among the nations,
lift up a banner and proclaim it;
keep nothing back, but say,
‘Babylon will be captured;
Bel will be put to shame,
Marduk filled with terror.
Her images will be put to shame
and her idols filled with terror.’
3 A NATION FROM THE NORTH will attack her
and lay waste her land.
No one will live in it;
both people and animals will flee away.

4 “In those days, at that time,”
declares the LORD,
“the people of Israel and the people of Judah together
will go in tears to seek the LORD their God.
5 They will ask the way to Zion
and turn their faces toward it.
They will come and bind themselves to the LORD
in an everlasting covenant
that will not be forgotten.

Here in verse 3 we see it's "a Nation from the North", it isn't even God commanding israelites to do so (or Christians hehe), but later on the same chap we see it again

50: 41 “Look! An army is coming from the NORTH;
a great nation and many kings
are being stirred up from the ends of the earth.
42 They are armed with bows and spears;
THEY are CRUEL and without MERCY.
They sound like the roaring sea
as they ride on their horses;
they come like men in battle formation
to attack you, Daughter Babylon.


So Madhi, what Isaiah and Jeremiah are describing here is what these people (the Nation form the north with no mercy and cruel) are gonna do to Babylon because GOD almighty is gonna let them do so, because of their trangressions toward him and Israel and Judah, he is gonna let them do to them what they did to his people so when we read:

Isaiah 13:16 Their infants will be dashed to pieces before their eyes;
their houses will be looted and their wives violated.

17 See, I will stir up against them the Medes,
who do not care for silver
and have no delight in gold.

CristoTeAma said...

This is not a command for his followers (like you said) as YOU MUSLIMS HAVE SURA 9:29, 9:111, and all those verses where raping is allowed since they are "those which your right hand possess" raping and killing people who are actually following the patch it was delivered to them (as the quran says that each one has it's own revelation), BUT for the sake of argument, let's supose it was a command for the JEWs to kill the Babylonians, the problem is that this is not a command which prevails yet, and ofc not for Christians (LAST COVENANT), so we do not lie when we say GOD commands us to be peaceful, yet when you say Islam is peaceful YOU ARE LYING cough cough sorry making Taqiyya. Madhi i know you must be searching in so many rotten Islamic web sites looking for some violence in the bible to try to put YHWH in the same level of the moon god allah, but they are nothing alike, mine when he does something like that it's because he has a clear plan:
40 As I overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah
along with their neighboring towns,”
declares the LORD,
“so no one will live there;
no people will dwell in it.

Where people was really wicked.. yet what we find in Islam is allah commanding you to kill us (Christians, Jews, Atheist, Polytheists) because we are not filled of hatred toward humanity as allah teaches you or because we don’t wanna pray to the moon or a rock. Also i would like to remind you that when God speaks about the destruction of the temple in the Gospels, he refers himself as the Army that is gonna destroy the Temple, and just like in Babylon, God decides to LET the enemies destroy Israel because of their wickedness. But according to your logic that means that THE ROMANS are the followers of GOD and that he commands them to do so (I would like to know what prophet did the Romans have to know that god wanted them to destroy Israel), but we know that the Romans were like this Army from the north, like Isaiah 13:5 says “They come from faraway lands, from the ends of the heavens— the LORD and the WEAPONS of his wrath— to destroy the whole country” they (the Romans) were the “weapon”.
To finish I would like to encourage you to read the Bible, not to just search in some Islamic web site any argument to copy and paste, because it is easy to prove that you and the website you get your info from are both WRONG.!

Editor or Nitemare said...

Kim said. "thedebateinitiative are terrorists how?"
Kim every muslim is a terrorist. In 2.216 it says you must fight and in 9.5 it says use every stratagem of war and terrorism is a stratagem of war.
002.216 YUSUFALI: Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not.
009.005 YUSUFALI: But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

Mahdi said. “Here's a simple challenge David; Can you point to me a verse from the Quran that encourages us to lie about Islam when giving Da'wah?”

I don't know if there is an exact verse that claims you can lie to entice people into your religion however your whole book is deception to entice people into your religion. Notice in your book it gives beautiful stories, 012.003 YUSUFALI: We do relate unto thee the most beautiful of stories, in that We reveal to thee this (portion of the) Qur'an: before this, thou too was among those who knew it not., of all other prophets. Lo and behold not one story about your actual prophet not the ones you stole from other books. Well this is a deception how many people would convert to islam knowing that your prophet married a three year old, robbed caravans, owned slaves etc. So conveniently your allah or Mohamed left these out of your false book.
Also notice how your false prophet received his revelation and about his parents and upbringing are also missing from the koran. I think there would have been allot less conversions had allot of converts known about these facts before. Muslims even admit that their book does not have rape, incest etc. meaning anything bad about their prophet or his devout followers they would never admit and put it into the book.
DECEPTION
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/deception
Synonyms: dishonesty
LYING
Synonyms: dishonest, untruthful

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/lying
Synonyms: dishonest, mendacious, untruthful

Baron Eddie said...

Mahdi ...

Are you wali to Christians and Jews now ?

Kim said...

And I can easily misquote and misinterpret the Bible passages telling people to wipe out other towns including their children and women and call every Christian a terrorist.

curly said...

@Madhi,
Isaiah 13:16 is not talking point to God's follower. It is point to the enemy of Babylonian. Isaiah prophecy the enemies will defeat to Babylonian armies. CristoTeAma is explain correctly.

@Madhi again,
I read the discussion between you and David Wood. I have a SIMPLE QUESTION for you. Are you try to say that Tasfir Ibn Kathir, Al-Hasan, Abu ad-Darda, Tafsir Jalalayn, and Ibn Abbas are WRONG? and why?

curly said...

@KIM,
"And I can easily misquote and misinterpret the Bible passages telling people to wipe out other towns including their children and women and call every Christian a terrorist"
GO AHEAD to tell people !

Search 4 Truth said...

@ kim, please be specific, which verses were taken out of context?

And why do you refuse to respond when I expose your taqiyya and logical fallacies?

Kangaroo said...

Search 4 Truth, I was referring to Editor's comment.

The verse that says kill them wherever you find them is supposed to prove that every Muslim is a terrorist according to you (editor), right?

Editor said:

Kim every muslim is a terrorist. In 2.216 it says you must fight and in 9.5 it says use every stratagem of war and terrorism is a stratagem of war.
002.216 YUSUFALI: Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not.
009.005 YUSUFALI: But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

Search 4 Truth said...

@ kangaroo

well he has a serious case. I am still wondering what he took out of context. If your perfect example is Mohamed, and Allah is your commander. Than there is a good case for all Muslims being commanded to fight their Jihad for Allah, externally and internally. And who gets the greatest reward?

Qur'an (4:74) - "Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward."

Qur'an (9:111) - "Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Qur'an: and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah? then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded: that is the achievement supreme."

Qur'an (2:207) - "And there is the type of man who gives his life to earn the pleasure of Allah..."

Qur'an (61:10-12) "O ye who believe! Shall I lead you to a bargain that will save you from a grievous Penalty? That ye believe in Allah and His Messenger, and that ye strive (your utmost) in the Cause of Allah, with your property and your persons: That will be best for you, if ye but knew! He will forgive you your sins, and admit you to Gardens beneath which Rivers flow, and to beautiful mansions in Gardens of Eternity: that is indeed the Supreme Achievement."

Quran (9:29) - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."

Quran (9:38-39) - "O ye who believe! what is the matter with you, that, when ye are asked to go forth in the cause of Allah, ye cling heavily to the earth? Do ye prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? But little is the comfort of this life, as compared with the Hereafter. Unless ye go forth, He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place."

I could continue but you will just reinterpret your clear Quran and contradict your scholars and sunna.

Mahdi said...

@Curly

I never said that they were wrong. I merely stated that those ayats and tafseers are taken out of context. That ayah says that if a Muslim fears for his life then it is permissible to lie about his faith e.g if someone points a gun to my head and orders me to renounce my faith, and I know very well this person will kill me, then it is ok for me to lie that I've renounced my faith until I can escape to a more secure location. Obviously I'm not permitted to practice that in the West because nobody will threaten to kill me because of my faith and if they did then I can just call the Police. But a lot of Muslims don't have, or simply didn't have that luxury.

The problem is that a lot of people who have an agenda against Islam have used this in order to propagate that Muslims are allowed to fib about their Religion in order to win over non-Muslims to their side. This isn't the case.

@Baron Eddie

I would never befriend or support someone who goes against Islam. Why would we take disbelievers as friends when they desire us to leave our Religion and follow theirs?

@Editor

Right. Apparently all those beautiful stories in the Noble Qu'ran are just a form deception to people, and the stories found in the Bible such as children having their heads crushed, women being raped as punishment, heroes sleeping with countless prostitutes, Prophets becoming murderers and lechers, countless cases of incest, fornicators describing the size of their lovers male organs and ejaculations and God himself riding on naked child angels are all supposed to be the "Word of God".

Come on, now.

Search 4 Truth said...

@ mahdi

You have yet to refute the evidence and elaborate how the are out of context.And please respond to my other comment!



* تفسير Tafsir al-Jalalayn 3:28
{ لاَّ يَتَّخِذِ ٱلْمُؤْمِنُونَ ٱلْكَافِرِينَ أَوْلِيَآءَ مِن دُونِ ٱلْمُؤْمِنِينَ وَمَن يَفْعَلْ ذٰلِكَ فَلَيْسَ مِنَ ٱللَّهِ فِي شَيْءٍ إِلاَّ أَن تَتَّقُواْ مِنْهُمْ تُقَـٰةً وَيُحَذِّرُكُمُ ٱللَّهُ نَفْسَهُ وَإِلَىٰ ٱللَّهِ ٱلْمَصِيرُ }

Let not the believers take the disbelievers as patrons, rather than, that is, instead of, the believers — for whoever does that, that is, [whoever] takes them as patrons, does not belong to, the religion of, God in anyway — unless you protect yourselves against them, as a safeguard (tuqātan, ‘as a safeguard’, is the verbal noun from taqiyyatan), that is to say, [unless] you fear something, in which case you may show patronage to them through words, but not in your hearts: this was before the hegemony of Islam and [the dispensation] applies to any individual residing in a land with no say in it. God warns you, He instills fear in you, of His Self, [warning] that He may be wrathful with you if you take them as patrons; and to God is the journey’s end, the return, and He will requite you.

Ok now how is it being taken out of context?

Baron Eddie said...

@ Mahdi

"@Baron Eddie

I would never befriend or support someone who goes against Islam. Why would we take disbelievers as friends when they desire us to leave our Religion and follow theirs?
"
thanks for your answer

Do you have a Christians/Jews friends who don't desire you to leave Islam but they don't believe in Allah or his prophet Mohammad now?

minoria said...

Curly made a nice comment to information I gave about Gary Habermas' research.All that information should be taught in Sunday school

I have become convinced that if a person says he believes or believed and NEVER investigates/investigated WHY Christianity is true...then he does NOT really believe

It is simply an emotional thing.If they really believe or believed then they would ask why it is true and investigate

ABOUT LICONA

He is a REAL scholar.Compare him to SHABIR ALLY(who has been studying Christianity for some 20 or more years).One is an honest seeker,not the other.

I WILL EXPLAIN

Licona has said that a few years ago,already a leader in one of the most important Protestant churches in the US,he decided he had to find out for himself if there was enough evidence the resurrection was true.

A 5 1/2 YEAR RESEARCH

He began investigating for his doctorate and usually it is 60-80,000 words,his dissertation went to 285,000 words.

He decided to use the Historical Method and the Philosophy of History and decided to employ techniques to minimize his biases and let the evidence lead to the conclusion.

HE WAS SERIOUS ABOUT IT

Already Gary Habermas had led the way,but Licona was determined that if the conclusion was contrary to the resurrection he would have to stop believing.

ABOUT MONEY

In one of his seminars,in youtube,he says that he concluded even if he came to the conclusion it was false he could still make alot of money writing a book about why Christianity was false for him.So there was no motive for him to go for Christianity

minoria said...

LICONA AGAIN

He came to the conclusion based on many technicalities,which you can see in his debate with Bart Erman about "Can Historians prove the resurrection of Jesus?"

that the resurrection was the most likely option based on the evidence...the rest is faith,but a faith based on solid evidence.You can see the debate here:

http://www.antisharia.com/2011/09/19/why-giving-good-reasons-for-the-resurrection-of-jesus-is-fatal-for-islam/

minoria said...

LICONA'S BRILLIANT SEMINAR

He gave a VERY LONG seminar,hrs and hrs,days,to students and somebody videotaped it...it is a real gem,it gives ALOT more information that in the Licona-Ehrman debate.He also give gives good answers to Ehrman's assertions against several of his ideas.He says Ehrman has not properly understood the historian's craft for X technical reasons.Here is PART 1 of the seminar,it is AT LEAST NINE PARTS,each USUALLY 1 HR LONG,it is part of "Michael Licona-Proofs for the Resurrection"

http://youtu.be/7vnxxDigHNA

ABOUT SHABIR ALLY AGAIN

Compare THAT,a REAL honest search by a man who went all the way,to the case of Shabir Ally who gives superficial arguments.

THE PROOF

I have analyzed many of them,some articles are only in French,but others are in English,here is Why Atheist Scholars Reject Shabir Ally's Idea that Jesus did Not Die

http://www.avraidire.com/2010/04/why-shabir-allys-arguments-about-jesus-not-dying-are-rejected-by-atheist-scholars/

http://www.avraidire.com/2010/04/more-on-shabir-allys-bad-arguments-for-jesus-surviving-crucifixion/

http://www.avraidire.com/2011/02/sur-les-gnostiques-et-sur-un-argument-de-shabir-ally-contre-la-divinite-de-jesus/

(You can translate the French article using Google Translate)

minoria said...

THERE IS ALSO MORE ON SHABIR ALLY

http://www.avraidire.com/2011/02/contre-un-argument-du-musulman-shabir-ally-sur-le-contenu-du-document-q-2/

http://www.avraidire.com/2010/04/death-of-jesussign-of-jonahand-muslim-lack-of-knowledgeor-worse/

PLUS(it has answers to a 4th and 5th argument by Shabir Ally that Jesus did NOT die)

http://www.avraidire.com/2010/04/more-on-why-atheistic-scholars-reject-shabir-allys-arguments-against-jesus-death/

CristoTeAma said...

Mahdi said..

@Editor

"Right. Apparently all those beautiful stories in the Noble Qu'ran are just a form deception to people, and the stories found in the Bible such as children having their heads crushed, women being raped as punishment, heroes sleeping with countless prostitutes, Prophets becoming murderers and lechers, countless cases of incest, fornicators describing the size of their lovers male organs and ejaculations and God himself riding on naked child angels are all supposed to be the "Word of God".

Come on, now."


And you are the one saying we misquote the quran ? lol, i will explain you another thing about the bible since it seems you don't know how it works. NOT everything that comes out from the mouth of the prophets or people in the bible comes from devine inspiration of GOD, they did and said stuffs against god, things that god didn't like or approve, so when you speak about rapes and children having their heads crushed, i thought i left that clear in older post, but it seems you have to do the muslim trick to ignore evidence to continue your "case" which is a lie, because the Bible isn't the quran, the Bible gives you the context (time,place,people,etc, so let's say my bible doesn't need hadiths) and it tells you what this people did or said, the bible says that people in Gomorrah did many bad things and many of those related to sex, so according to your way of reading the bible GOD told them to do those stuffs because that is in the bible LOL!! Also i would recommend you to stay in the canon books of the Bible, if you wanna know my GOD. Yet we do find that your GOD promises you 72 Houris with round brests, black eyes, white skin (allah forbids you may like a black girl) and desirable vaginas, Eternal erections, the strenght of 100 men just to have sex + your wives from earth. Also i know of a book that tells you that you can rape married captives even at this very momment (and commit adultery according to my God), also if i am not wrong the hadiths explains in detail how Muhammad pulled some eyes out, tortured a guy for money, had sex with a slave after luring his wife to go to visit his dad,have sex with a child, Zaid and other muslims had for hobbie to have sex with their captives etc etc. The difference from my bible is that when i.e David have sex with the married women MY GOD doesn't like that, and David is punished, yet in the quran+hadiths allah rejoices with such acts. So again Mahdi stop using such low arguments because you make it even easier for us to expose your lies and the rotten core of Islam.
PS: You said “word of God” like putting these texts in doubt (another corruption of our Bible?) But in case you don’t know it, one of the “predictions” of Muhammad comes from that same book you are despising as “word of God” specifically from the song of Solomon where “Machmadim” according to muslims is Muhammad, so I suggest you to be careful with the texts you are despising, just a tip.

CristoTeAma said...

Kim said...
"And I can easily misquote and misinterpret the Bible passages telling people to wipe out other towns including their children and women and call every Christian a terrorist."

Kim plz give us many examples of that so we can address you, and compare if it is like our "misquotes" or they are like the direct commands to all muslims to kill, subjugate, humiliate, rape, and take captive people for allah until the day of resurrection. Because this is not us (Christians, Jews, Polytheists or Atheist) making up these stuffs, these are the very Muslims including Sunni Muslims the ones who clearly explains these verses of the Quran. Also in another post you said that "if you have a gun pointed to your head, i would understand you lie" and yet we see the huge difference between your God and mine in Matthew 10:32 “Whoever acknowledges me before others, I will also acknowledge before my Father in heaven. 33 But whoever disowns me before others, I will disown before my Father in heaven." i am not saying that you can't fail and sin for a huge fear yet my God doesn't want that, so you must repent and be prepare for next time so you will face whatever fate you have to face for Jesus name, but in your religion all kind of lies is permissible(to wives, desbelievers,etc), also i would like to quote something else from my God in Matthew 16:25 "For whoever wants to save their life will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me will find it. 26 What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul?" So this is my God promising me eternal life, which is the Goal, to reach to heaven to praise our God (not to give ourselves to lust), so when you said that it shows another huge difference between allah and YHWH the ALMIGHTY. But to finish i would like to remember that i.e Ibn Kathir doesn't explain that sura the way you are trying to say now (with a gun pointing to your head), he explains it like if they do not let you do your religion(Islam) the way you must, you must make them believe you are friendly (adapt) and smile to them, but never inwardly you must be friendly to them, so let's see if we here in western culture let you do the religion you must do it:

CristoTeAma said...

1)Do we forbid another religions to preach as the quran+Hadiths commands? Answer:NO
2)Do we allow marriages with 9 years old and pre pubertal girls or even worse divorce them? Answer:NO
3)Did we become Dhimmies, and our house must be smaller than yours, and we must walk in the narrow part of the road, give our sits to you, and pay extortion for being "ppl of the book" ? Answer: NO
4)Do we allow killing apostates here in western? Answer:NO
5)Do we allow wife beating ? Answer:NO
6)Do we allow 4 wives? Answer: NO
7)Do we allow slaves or raping slaves? Answer: NO
8)Do we allow another religions including polytheists coexists with us? Answer: YES
9)Do we let churches and mosques to be repaired in case they need it? Answer: YES
10)Do we cut hands to thieves? Answer:NO
11)Do we stone adulterers? Answer: NO
12) Do we allow eye for an eye law? Answer:NO
13)Do we flog fornicators or alcoholics? Answer:NO
14)Do we suggest women are "mental deficient"? Answer: NO
15)Do we give 2 options to Atheists and Polytheists: Convert or die? Answer: NO
16)Do we allow our women to go unveiled? Answer: YES
Are muslims following their religion the way they should in western countries? Answer: NO, Should they be lying until they get the numbers and can do the religion the way they should? Answer: YES, are they doing that in western countries right now? Answer: YES wheather it be knowing it or not knowing it. Is the Islam practiced in western countries right now the real Islam? Answer:NO
Do muslims know that they are making Taqiyya even when they say that is not allowed in Islam? Answer: ?????
You see Kim, you have no argument, because according to your own sources you must be lying to unbelievers until you can make Islam rule over all the other religions whether it is trough lies or Jihad, otherwise you can't do your religion the way you must, and that makes you a bad muslim.

CristoTeAma said...

Oh i almost forgot some other "laws" from the hadiths that we don't fulfil here in western contries neither we let Muslims to make others do it, like Music, or the way you dress, and i am not making that up, you just need to check what did the muslims put on those posters in London concerning the Sharia Zones, but it seems these muslims are not even willing to wait until they get a bigger number of muslims willing to make their religion be practiced the way it should.

Radical Moderate said...

@Mahadi

You wrote...

"Regardless, you still haven't exactly pointed out where in our Deen is it encouraged (or even accepted) for us to lie about our faith when teaching people about...our faith."

Mahadi we don't have to your brother or sister Kim did that for us. When shown a video of a Muslim cleric on Islamic TV, described doing just that.

The Muslim cleric told a story of a Man who was told that he could still drink Alchol and be a Muslim. THAT IS A LIE, it was told to coerce a person into accepting ISLAM and taking the SHAHADA.


After he took the Shahada he was told that if he had another drink of Alchol he would be thrown in jail, and if he left Islam he would be killed.

Kim responded to this with...

"In the first video he didn't lie.
Drinking alcohol in Islam is a big sin but it doesn't make you an apostate/disbeliever."

So Kim saw nothing wrong with the Muslim "lie about our faith when teaching people about...our faith."

As a matter of fact Kim went on to promote the lie by saying Drinking Alchol does not make you a apostate. So Kim would have no problem telling people that you can still drink and be a Muslim when this is clearly not the case.

Unless your going to say that in Islam you can drink, have iligal sex, murder, rape and steal and still be a Muslim?

Radical Moderate said...

@Mahadi

Wow not only have Muslism like Kim and the Sheik in the video proven that Muslims can lie to promote their own relegion. But you have just proven that Muslims can lie about other peoples relegion like you did with this statement.

"Ironically, according to the Bible, God explicitly orders his followers to not only kill disbelievers, but to smash their children against rocks and to rape their women in front of them [disbelievers] as further punishment (this can be found in Isaiah 13:16.)"

Congradulations your 0 for 2 now.

YaAkhi said...

The same video URL that Kim used to "refute" Taqiyyah is the same URL that claims it refuted Abrogation (an-Nasikh) but unfortunately it's neither refuted nor ever will be, why? Ash-Shafii' of the Shafii school of Fiqh which people from Egypt, Iraq, Somalia etc. adhere to believed and expounded upon it. You can find an entire dissertation at McGill University's online library of scholarly dissertations.

http://digitool.library.mcgill.ca/R/-?func=dbin-jump-full&object_id=33295&silo_library=GEN01

YaAkhi said...

This is a lie, as was the video that Kim referred. Abrogation is a part of Islam just as Taqiyyah is.

Here is a scholar with a Masters in Islamic Studies who says to the contrary. This was written in 2000:

http://digitool.library.mcgill.ca/R/-?func=dbin-jump-full&object_id=33295&silo_library=GEN01

YaAkhi said...

Kim refuted on Abrogation:

http://digitool.library.mcgill.ca/R/-?func=dbin-jump-full&object_id=33295&silo_library=GEN01

On Taqiyyah (Shia):

"The Just Ruler in Shi'ite Islam: The Comprehensive Authority of the Jurist":

"Thus, in Taqiyyah there is a state of alertness and preparedness to launch the final jihad under the aegis of as-Sultan al-Adl (The Just Authority, i.e., the Mahdi, Khalifah). This is the connotation of dar al-Taqiyyah, the abode of concealment by way of precaution." (pp. 115)

On Sunni Taqiyyah:

al-Qurtobi (Rahimullah)

http://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=5&tSoraNo=3&tAyahNo=28&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=1

donna60 said...

Kim,
You are my friend. You are beloved by the God of love, and He yearns for you.

I remind you that during the first three centuries CE, Christians died daily because they did not deny Christ. They were set aflame to light Nero's gardens, and fed the circuses of Rome. The were slaughtered in every province of Rome.

Not that I want that to happen to Muslims. I would hate for any of these things to happen to Muslims, and especially not the Muslims that I love.

However, the martyrdom of Christians enlarged the kingdom of Heaven. By the 4th Century, Christianity had conquered Rome, not by lies, and inward hate, but by love and truth.

Those Christians shared in Jesus' sacrifice, by sacrificing themselves as witnesses to Christ. What eternal glory!

Some Christians did recant their faith. When persecution became hot and heavy they bailed. They later returned to Christ, heavy of heart and repentant.

Can you understand how truth and honesty counts for a greater glory than life itself? The Christian church was based on the convictions of men such as these.

Editor or Nitemare said...

Mahdi said..."Ironically, according to the Bible, God explicitly orders his followers to not only kill disbelievers, but to smash their children against rocks and to rape their women in front of them [disbelievers] as further punishment (this can be found in Isaiah 13:16.)"

Lets look at the verses Mahdi calls orders.

Isaiah Chapter 13:16 Their babes also shall be dashed in pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished. 17 Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them, who shall not regard silver, and as for gold, they shall not delight in it. 18 And their bows shall dash the young men in pieces; and they shall have no pity on the fruit of the womb; their eye shall not spare children.

I don't see any orders here to kill disbelievers or smash children. In fact their allah claims that no calamity can happen without the will of their allah. So according to him Their allah ordered the former jailer of the khmer rouge and hitlers men to commit these atrocities.

http://www.newser.com/story/61362/khmer-rouge-chief-admits-smashing-babies.html
"The former chief jailer of the Khmer Rouge told a war crimes tribunal yesterday that it was standard policy to kill babies and children by smashing their heads against trees"

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/10/weekinreview/10word.html As the Nazis and Adolescence Took Hold
"Oh, I forgot the most important thing. I saw how a soldier tore a baby, who was only a few months old, out of mother’s hands and bashed his head against an electric pylon. The baby’s brain splashed on the wood. The mother went crazy."
64.011YUSUFALI:No kind of calamity can occur, except by the leave of Allah: and if any one believes in Allah, (Allah) guides his heart (aright): for Allah knows all things.
64.11 No affliction comes about but by Allah's permission; and whoever believes in Allah, He guides aright his heart; and Allah is Cognizant of all things.

So far from the Bible ordering these atrocities their allah orders them (except by the leave of Allah)and gives his permission (No affliction comes about but by Allah's permission.) I guess these below their allah ordered too

Massacres and Atrocities of World War II http://members.iinet.net.au/~gduncan/massacres.html

Editor or Nitemare said...

Kim said. "And I can easily misquote and misinterpret the Bible passages telling people to wipe out other towns including their children and women and call every Christian a terrorist."

You may call every Christian a terrorist however since im not a Christian and follow the Jewish Bible you certaintaly wont be able to call every Jewish a terrorist. The Jewish Bible actually has a context and all those verses need to be put into context. However as this article proves the context for the muslims makes it worse for them.
Context of the Verses Makes the Quran’s Message Worse, Much More Barbaric
http://www.faithfreedom.org/articles/quran-koran/context-of-the-verses-makes-the-quran%e2%80%99s-message-worse-much-more-barbaric/
Kangaroo said."Search 4 Truth, I was referring to Editor's comment.The verse that says kill them wherever you find them is supposed to prove that every Muslim is a terrorist according to you (editor), right?

Since I am not a Christian this blog edits my posts. I wrote that the nitemare. Yes the verse says kill them wherever you find them using every stratagem of war. Will you not admit terrorism is a stratagem of war? The verse below orders muslims to fight and it does not say if they are fighting you, no matter what a lying muslim may tell you.

002.216 YUSUFALI: Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not.

curly said...

@Minora,
I agree you that Mike Licona is brilliant guy. Hey, I agree Atheist scholar that he rejected Shabir Ally's Idea that Jesus did Not Die. I think Shabir Ally is not honest to himself. I can't imagine he will face Jesus Christ in the judgment day.
I think Muslim claim Jesus Christ did not die on the cross is very ridiculous. The claim is exactly come from 6th century thinker guy, Muhammad. I think there are pointless Jesus Christ's disciple make up this story. If Jesus Christ does translate to heaven from earth and did not die on the cross is true, no question disciple will declare that Jesus Christ go to the heaven like Elijah . Muhammad is just silly guy.

curly said...

@Madhi,
Oh I see, thank you for answer my question. I want to ask you another short question. You said "As Muslims, non-Muslims are free to practice their Religion when living in Muslim countries"
If you are president of Muslim country, you will allow christian to evangelize to Muslim in your country?

Mahdi said...

It seems like a lot of people didn't understand the point I was trying to make in posting those biblical verses. So far I've received about four different answers and explanations to them. What I find disingenuous is how you'll go to great lengths to explain (or even justify) the profane verses in the bible while simultaneously throwing shallow attacks against Islam, often citing only one ayah to prove their point.

@CristoTeAma
It doesn't matter what the context is. You can sit there and finagle about what came from God and what didn't, but it still doesn't change the fact that you have these profane, lewd, vulgar and shameless verses in the bible.

-

Thank you for the advice. I have been reading the Bible and so far I really don't like what I'm reading. There really is a world of difference compared to the Noble Qu'ran. Horrible stories of Prophets sleeping with prostitutes, committing incest with their own daughters, sick pornography and vast amounts of violence. Can you find me such verses in the Noble Qu'ran? I mean I'd understand if it was just one verse and perhaps we could let it slide, but the fact that such verses keep coming up over and over again just doesn't equate to it being the uncorrupted word of God.

@Baron Eddie
I have quite a few Christian friends who respect my religion, and I respect theirs. There are some people in my community however that are vehemently against Islam and spend much of their time attacking it. I wouldn't befriend them and I don't see why I should. That doesn't mean however that we shouldn't show courtesy to people who are hating on Islam; we most certainly should. As Muslims we have to speak gently and show kindness, but at the same time we are going to be stern against people who continuously bash Islam.

@minoria
So in order for me to be a true believer I must accept a Religion with logical contradictions regarding the fundamentals of its faith (Trinity, Jesus' blood as salvation) and a scripture that has man made alterations to it?

@Curly
Well there wouldn't be any problem with promoting interfaith dialogue between Muslims and non-muslims, but I would discourage people trying to convert Muslims to Christianity. Except I'd despise being president of any country.

-

I think I've overstayed my welcome here on this particular article so please forgive me if I don't answer any more questions.

uniquenz said...

Kim: Do you believe that Zakir Naik believes that Islam teaches that Christianity should or should not be allowed in Muslim countries?

Search 4 Truth said...

@ Mahdi

More taqqiya and deflection.

I have answered and refuted you several time with the Quran, hadith and tafsirs. But of course you continue to ignore my postings.

Also You have made so many fallacious accusations and ignorant statement I dont even know where to begin.

First of all we do not make every person a Prophet. You mentioned Lot, he was not a Prophet. And the stories in the Bible are historical events, parables, and lessons.

We do not attempt to lie to protect the character of the people in the Bible, like you and all Muslim do with Mohamed. We learn from their mistakes just as they learned themselves. All sin, accept God (Jesus). So we dont try to pretend that prophets were perfect when only God can be perfect.

The Bible is a Historical depiction of what occurred, so why would we lie about history? We are not Muslims who lie about almost every aspect of Islam.

And also what you are saying are not all commands from God. God is just, so not everything in the Bible are commands from God to do these things.

Like Lot,s daughters getting him drunk and taking advantage of him. Show me where God commanded it. No the daughters witnessed the city of Sodom and the people in it be destroyed. And they thought they were the only ones on the planet and had to repopulate it. And Lot was not a Prophet.

And what we see in Islam are direct evil, intolerant, fascist, immoral commands from your Allah to commit against all non Muslims, and Muslims alike! And if we read the sunna of your false Prophet what we see is something far more disturbing that anything you can take out of context in the Bible! Islam permits rape, murder, child molestation, kidnapping, ransoming,
torture, fascism, bigotry, adultery, intolerance, extortion, and many many other evil things that contradicts the Biblical teachings! Mophamed broke most if not all of the ten commandments!

Search 4 Truth said...

@ Mahdi

Rape and adultery

Some of the Companions of the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) were reluctant to have intercourse with the female captives in the presence of their husbands who were unbelievers. So Allah, the Exalted, sent down the Qur’anic verse: (Sura 4:24) "And all married women (are forbidden) unto you save those (captives) whom your right hands possess." (Abu Dawud 2150, also Muslim 3433)

Rape, Adultery, kidnapping, ransoming and slavery!

"We went out with Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) on the expedition to the Bi'l-Mustaliq and took captive some excellent Arab women; and we desired them, for we were suffering from the absence of our wives, (but at the same time) we also desired ransom for them. So we decided to have sexual intercourse with them but by observing 'azl (Withdrawing the male sexual organ before emission of semen to avoid-conception). But we said: We are doing an act whereas Allah's Messenger is amongst us; why not ask him? So we asked Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him), and he said: It does not matter" (Sahih Muslim 3371)

Torture, murder, theft!

Tabari VIII:122
Ishaq:515 "The Prophet gave orders concerning Kinanah to Zubayr, saying, 'Torture him until you root out and extract what he has. So Zubayr kindled a fire on Kinanah's chest, twirling it with his firestick until Kinanah was near death. Then the Messenger gave him to Maslamah, who beheaded him."

Ishaq:595 "The Apostle said, 'Get him away from me and cut off his tongue.'"

Qur'an (5:33) - "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides..."

Muslim (16:4131) - They were caught and brought to him (the Holy Prophet). He commanded about them, and (thus) their hands and feet were cut off and their eyes were gouged and then they were thrown in the sun, until they died.

Bukhari:V5B59N512 "The captives of Khaybar were divided among the Muslims. Then the Messenger began taking the homes and property that were closest to him."

I could fill this page with the evil of Islam and your false Prophet!

Do you see how it's done, I provide the evidence to support my factual assessment.

You make assertions without knowledge, evidence, context, or logic! I can continue But I know you will just ignore me like you have done every other time I refute and expose you!

curly said...

@CristoTeAma
Madhi said "Thank you for the advice. I have been reading the Bible and so far I really don't like what I'm reading. There really is a world of difference compared to the Noble Qu'ran. Horrible stories of Prophets sleeping with prostitutes, committing incest with their own daughters, sick pornography and vast amounts of violence. Can you find me such verses in the Noble Qu'ran? "
I agree Madhi. I do think Noble Quran is lesser violence, embarrass,and negative compare to the Holy Bible. Although, his failure is Noble Quran lack the context. Hadith made it worser. Some muslim rather to ignore some negative side of Hadith which explain about the biography of Mohammad. Holy Bible do have the context. At least 42 author of the HOly Bible were brave and willing to wrote the embarrassed history about their ancestor and God. I like Holy Bible because it is authetic. I feel Holy Quran is just man-made religion.
I think Madhi is sincere and much better than Kim!

Sam said...

The problem with Mahdi's assertion is that the reason why he can't see in the Quran the things he imagines that are there in the Holy Bible is because his prophet called these filthy practices lawful and good. For instance, raping captive women whose husbands are still alive, prostituting women and calling it temporary marriages, having swelling breasted maidens to deflower for all eternity, and Allah breathing his spirit into a woman's private is all fine and daddy as long as Muhammad said it!

For the details please consult the following articles:

http://answering-islam.org/authors/shamoun/permit_lust.html

http://answering-islam.org/Shamoun/virginalconception.htm

http://answering-islam.org/authors/shamoun/rebuttals/zawadi/inconsistent1.html

http://answering-islam.org/authors/shamoun/rebuttals/zawadi/inconsistent2.html

curly said...

@madhi,
I adovcate the interfaith dialogue between Muslim and Christian, too. I would not discourage Muslim trying to covert christian to Muslim, because I believe some good Muslim want people to track back the truth. I am against force, propaganda, and deceive (include Taqqiya). I opposite the motive of Zakir Naik. Anyway, I hope you are not like Zakir Naik. For your information, I do have some good Muslim friends.

Search 4 Truth said...

Excellent point Sam!

CristoTeAma said...

Mahdi said that since the bible has this horrible stories it cant be the word of god, but now i encourage u to read the quran and hadiths and check that ur prophet thouth it was thee word of god but i guess muslims now know more.. u r ignorant of ur own faith and it seems to be u r trying to teach us, also i would limke to know what in the new testament can be possible disgusting to u?? Jesus teaching u to do the opposite to muhammad??also i would like o repeat that the bible has thbe context, we dont need hadiths to ujnderstand it, and i wonder how would be the quran if u join it the hadith so u can actually make an intelligable book, the difference m/adbhi and whbat u dont want to see is that god i.e didnt command judah to have sex with the "prostitute" but the bible tells u what he did, the bible desnt say god wanted that, because my god respect nwomen, yet ur god and prophet do llow prostitution and let u take advntage of thbose women even if u r married thats the fact u deny urself to see.