Sunday, July 4, 2010

Muhammad's War On Muslims

We have just witnessed yet another attack in Pakistan of Muslim against Muslim. (See 1, 2, 3). I hear people say that the Muslims who do this are not true Muslims, but there is a problem with this conclusion. Firstly, the Qur'an commands the "rightly guided" Muslims to make war on false Muslims.

O you who believe! Observe your duty to Allah, and give up what remaineth (due to you) from usury, if you are (in truth) believers. And if you do not, then be warned of war (against you) from Allah and His messenger. And if you repent, then you have your principal (without interest). Wrong not, and you shall not be wronged. (Qur'an 2:278-279, Pickthall)


O Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites! Be harsh with them. Their ultimate abode is hell, a hapless journey's end. (Qur'an 9:73, Pitckthall)


And if two parties of believers fall to fighting, then make peace between them. And if one party of them doeth wrong to the other, fight ye that which doeth wrong till it return unto the ordinance of Allah; then, if it return, make peace between them justly, and act equitably. Lo! Allah loveth the equitable. (Qur'an 49:9, Pickthall)


The Sunnah also teaches the same thing.

Narrated Daylam al-Himyari: I asked the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and said: Apostle of Allah! we live in a cold land in which we do heavy work and we make a liquor from wheat to get strength from it for our work and to stand the cold of our country. He asked: Is it intoxicating? I replied: Yes. He said: You must avoid it. I said: The people will not abandon it. He said: If they do not abandon it, fight with them. (Abu Dawood: bk 26, no. 3675, Hasan)


The owners of the mosque of opposition had come to the apostle as he was preparing
for (to attack) Tabuk, saying, "We have built a mosque for the sick and needy and for nights of bad weather, and we should like you to come to us and pray for us there." He said that he was on the point of travelling, and was preoccupied ... and that when he came back if God willed he would come to them and pray for them in it. When he stopped in Dhu Awan news of the mosque came to him, and he summoned Malik b. al-Dukhshum ... and Ma'n b. `Adiy ... and told them to go to the mosque of those evil men and destroy and burn it. ... and then the two of them ran into the mosque where its people were and burned and destroyed it and the people ran away from it. (Ibn Ishaq, Sirat Rasul Allah, p. 609)


Narrated Abu Huraira: When Allah's Apostle died and Abu Bakr was elected as a Caliph after him, some of the Arabs reverted to disbelief. Umar said to Abu Bakr, "How dare you fight the people when Allah's Apostle said: I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: None has the right to be worshipped but Allah, and whoever says: None has the right to be worshipped but Allah, saves his wealth and his life from me unless he deserves a legal punishment justy, and his account will be with Allah!" Abu Bakr said, "By Allah, I will fight him who discriminates between Zakat and prayers, for Zakat is the compulsory right to be taken from the wealth by Allah, if they refuse to give me even a tying rope which they use to give to Allah's
Apostle, I would fight them for withholding it." Umar said, "By Allah, it was nothing, except I saw that Allah had opened the chest of Abu Bakr to the fight, and I came to know for certain that was the truth." (Bukhari: vol 9, bk. 92, no. 388, Khan)


Thus the Qur'an and Sunnah command faithful Muslims to make war on those Muslims who do not obey all of Islam's teaching. This is a very important aspect of Jihad. Jihad is not just against non-Muslims; it is also against Muslims. This is why Muslim groups in Pakistan blow up mosques of those they believe to be false Muslims.

How do you control a doctrine this? Who determines who is "rightly guided"? This is madness and nothing but trouble for Muslims and everyone one else. This is not God's way and does not bring about true worship of God. It is the gospel that is the right way for it seeks to change hearts by the power of God's spirit not by human violence.

51 comments:

Apollos26 said...

If Mohammed was the GREATEST of ALL prophets and the Quran the GREATEST book of all and Islam the GREATEST of ALL religions, I really wonder how then their can be such divisons among the muslims themselves.

Couldn't than anybody expect that Islam should be perfect in all senses.

All their strong claims are not worth anything.

goethechosemercy said...

Islam has no hierarchy, no final authority except the Koran & scriptures.
It is not an organized religion, and therefore such conflicts can only be settled ad hoc.

Odo said...

Apparently Muhammad also burned his fellow Muslims alive for missing prayer:

Sahih Bukhari Volume 1, Book 11, Number 626:

Narrated Abu Huraira:

The Prophet said, "No prayer is harder for the hypocrites than the Fajr and the 'Isha' prayers and if they knew the reward for these prayers at their respective times, they would certainly present themselves (in the mosques) even if they had to crawl." The Prophet added, "Certainly I decided to order the Mu'adh-dhin (call-maker) to pronounce Iqama and order a man to lead the prayer and then take a flame of fire to burn all those who had not left their houses so far for the prayer along with their houses."

Chad Groenhout said...

I have been following your blog for a few weeks. One thing I would have you add is more scripture. The Word of God is important and powerful. Please share it with the people around you. You just quoted the Koran to make a point, but you follow it up in your own words about the power of the Gospel. Why not add scripture to convey your points. Great job all around.

diskojerk said...

Catholics and Protestants have been killing each other for hundreds of years in Ireland. Inter-religious violence and murder is not unique to Islam

minoria said...

I think the word is tafkir,the custom of a Muslim saying to another that he is not a Muslim,he is an apostate.As all have noticed:

1.When MUSLIMS persecute and kill NON-MUSLIMS the Muslims are(generally)indifferent...no protests(example:the killing of the BAHAIS in Iran,killing 1 MILLION animists and Christians in southern Sudan)

2.When MUSLIMS persecute or kill MUSLIMS the Muslims are generally indifferent(example:250,000 dead in Darfur,300,000 killed by Sadam Hussein,100,000 killed by Khomeini,100-150,000 killed by the FIS in ALGERIA,100,000 killed by Al-Qaida)

3.When NON-MUSLIMS kill or persecute MUSLIMS,it is only THEN that Muslims react strongly

I think it is because it has to do with non-believers.Ask yourself THIS question:
"If the SERBS were MUSLIM and had killed 250,000 MUSLIM BOSNIANS,would the MUSLIMS have made a great deal?"
Based on experience,I don't think so.
Or if the BOSNIAN MUSLIMS had killed 250,000 nominal Christian SERBS(non-Muslims any which way)would the Muslims be making a great noise?No,not based on experience.
If the RUSSIANS were MUSLIMS and had killed 100,000 MUSLIM CHECHNYANS,would the Muslims be making a great scandal?NO.

By the way MOST Russians don't believe in Christianity and I think most are still atheist.

diskojerk said...

Apollos26 I would ask the same question of christanity as well. If the bible is the infallible word of god why can't all Christians agree on it's interpretation?

Adam said...

Br. Sam Shamoun Face Book Fan Page

http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#!/pages/Sam-Shamoun/131560816860877

Fernando said...

Hi diskojerk said...

thakes for your input... whate you daid is a common affirmation from ignorante muslims tahte crrumbles withe a simple blow of truthe... I really hope you won't disappear after this small blow... the problem is not wheather some nominal Christian kills (and iff he does so he's breaching the core teachings from Christianity and, doing so, he's revealling himself as nor being a Christian) butt iff muslims do kill in accordance to the core teachings off their religion...

in other words: iff some nominal Christian kills, he does so against his religion; butt iff a true muslim kills he does so, frequentelly, in accordance to his (false) religion...

would you kundly give us all a feedback on this realllity? thankes...

Adam said...

Sharia Implemented in India: Islamist Chop off
Professor’s Palm

http://expressbuzz.com/cities/kochi/controversial-lecturer%E2%80%99s-palm-chopped-off/187109.html

ben malik said...

I agree with Chad, you need to quote more Scripture since it is alive, active and powerful.

Apollos26 said...

@diskojerk:

Yeah, the Holy Bible in deed is the infallible word of God.

Different interpretations have to do with the human mind that is not infallible, but the core elements are the same in every denomination. Just read the christian creeds.

2. If islam kills, it is because of the teachings of Muhammed. If some christian and most came from the catholic church killed it is because of egoism and heresy.

Please use christian scripture to make your point don't look at humans.

Do your homework before you ask questions that already have been answered a million times.

Fernando said...

Surelly eben after this muslims will still say the bible we have today has been corrupted after muhammad's existence...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1292150/Worlds-illustrated-Christian-bible-discovered-Ethiopian-monastery.html

Lupus el Lobo said...

You can refer to so called violent passages in the quran and hadith until your face turns blue. It doesn't change the fact that there is no one to one correlation between so called violent passages and how true muslims treat each other as well as non-belivers.
Christianity is a good example of that. Although the NT contains few explicit violent passages, christians have, throughout history, used the bible to legetimize violence against each other as well as others. You can claim all you want that these aren't true christians, but the facts speak for themselves. I gather that you see yourselves as true christians. If so what's your view on Zionim, the Iraq war, the Afghanistan war? If you in any way support these ideologies or violent campaigns or other violent actions that go beyond self-defense (the use of reasonable force to ward off or prevent an attack), then you just prove my point. By self-defense I do not mean the right to deploy troops thousands of miles from your borders.

John Lollard said...

diskojerk,

You said "If the bible is the infallible word of god why can't all Christians agree on it's interpretation?"

While there is an answer to your question, I think it is a very valid point and I almost brought it up myself. It doesn't make sense to criticize Islam for having divisions when Christianity has divisions. It kind of irks me that sometimes I see Christians using inconsistent arguments like this. Thanks for pointing it out.

Love in Christ,
JL

Odo said...

Lupus,

you can refer to your so called 'true' Muslim phantasm till your face turns blue. It doesn't change the fact that that Muhammad killed people, including fellow Muslims, who he once called Muslims and after abrogating his so called 'revelation', called them hypocrites. Islam is a good example of that. although the Quran contains countless violent passages, Muslims have, throughout history, used the example of Muhammad to legitimize oppression, discrimination, and inexplicable acts of violence against each other as well as all non Muslims. You can claim all you want that these arent true Muslims, but the Quran, the Sunnah, and the examples of the prophet speak for themselves (not to mention history). I gather that you see yourself as a true muslim. if so, what's your opinion on Muhammad slaughtering 800 jewish people in one day (including a woman, and another taken as his personal sex slave), attacking fellow tribes in raids to gain wealth and power, lying to supposed 'friends' and relatives, burning fellow Muslims alive (along with their houses), killing critics of Islam (and assassinating a man for spitting on him), killing passerby Jewish merchants for absolutely no reason, torture of conquered peoples in order to extract money, killing one eyed and blind civilians because they weren't Muslim, assassination of women, killing apostates, killing anyone who insulted him, killing an elderly lady by splitting her body in half, etc. etc. (in every case reasonable force was not necessary to ward off or prevent an attack, in fact, none of these were 'attacks', unless you count not being Muslim or criticizing Muhammad an attack). If you in any way support these actions and violent campaigns or other violent actions that go beyond self defense (the use of reasonable force to ward off or prevent an attack), then you just proved my point. By self defense I don't mean the right to deceive your friends and community in order to conquer and subdue the lands they lived on, followed by a systematic cleansing of everything they believe in, and humiliation, to their person and their descendants, for being non Muslim.

"When the apostle ordered him to be killed, Uqba said, 'but who will look after my CHILDREN O Muhammad?' 'HELL,' said Muhammad."

Ryan S said...

Lupus el Lobo says:

"You can refer to so called violent passages in the quran and hadith until your face turns blue. It doesn't change the fact that there is no one to one correlation between so called violent passages and how true muslims treat each other as well as non-belivers."

Seriously.. are you so isolated as to never have read the news or eyewitness accounts of life under Muslim sharia law for non muslims? or read history of Muslim actions against non Muslims over oh.. lets say the last 1400 years?

Are you really that blind???

diskojerk said...

Taken from the bible where god says to murder people of different faiths:

If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him.  Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you.  You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery.  And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst.  (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)

Taken from the qur'an where god says to kill people of other faiths:

Qur'an (4:89) - "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks."

I am neither a Christian nor a Muslim. I am not a buddhist nor a Hindu. I was not raised in any religion and I am not an atheist. I do believe in God, but I do not believe in the Judeo/Christian/Islamic god in scripture. I DO NOT believe in nor would I follow the tenants of any God who is jealous or vengeful or would lay waste to thousands of human lives because he didn't like the choices they made after he himself gave them the right to free will.

I am a vegetarian because I do not believe it is necessary to kill animals in order to survive. I do eat or drink dairy products because I believe that the treatment of the animals that produce dairy is abhorrent. I do not smoke, nor do I take drugs. I have never harmed another person or through my actions have I caused harm to other people. I do not kill spiders or flies or any pests because I believe life is the most precious thing there is and regardless of how small that existence is it is not my right to take it. I do not lie to people, I do not steal and I work just as hard as the next person and I will help people in need if I am able to. I do my best to simply be a good person. But regardless of my efforts to be a good person, Christianity and Islam condemn me to an eternity in hell because I do not believe in Jesus Christ or alternatively, Muhammed.

I have known one true Christian my entire life. He believed it and he lived it and even he in the last years of his life began to question how he had interpreted the bible his entire life. This is a man who studied his bible every day...EVERY DAY. And one day I overheard him say to one of my uncles, "Yes, God made the world in 7 days, but what is one day to God? Is it a thousand years? Is it a million years?" he also said "the bible is a parable, and I do not believe it to be 100% literal, nor should every verse in it be taken literally".

God is beyond our minds ability of comprehension and anybody who tells you otherwise is just deceiving you.

diskojerk said...

Taken from the bible where god says to murder people of different faiths:

If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him.  Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you.  You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery.  And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst.  (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)

Taken from the qur'an where god says to kill people of other faiths:

Qur'an (4:89) - "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks."

I am neither a Christian nor a Muslim. I am not a buddhist nor a Hindu. I was not raised in any religion and I am not an atheist. I do believe in God, but I do not believe in the Judeo/Christian/Islamic god in scripture. I DO NOT believe in nor would I follow the tenants of any God who is jealous or vengeful or would lay waste to thousands of human lives because he didn't like the choices they made after he himself gave them the right to free will.

I am a vegetarian because I do not believe it is necessary to kill animals in order to survive. I do eat or drink dairy products because I believe that the treatment of the animals that produce dairy is abhorrent. I do not smoke, nor do I take drugs. I have never harmed another person or through my actions have I caused harm to other people. I do not kill spiders or flies or any pests because I believe life is the most precious thing there is and regardless of how small that existence is it is not my right to take it. I do not lie to people, I do not steal and I work just as hard as the next person and I will help people in need if I am able to. I do my best to simply be a good person. But regardless of my efforts to be a good person, Christianity and Islam condemn me to an eternity in hell because I do not believe in Jesus Christ or alternatively, Muhammed.

I have known one true Christian my entire life. He believed it and he lived it and even he in the last years of his life began to question how he had interpreted the bible his entire life. This is a man who studied his bible every day...EVERY DAY. And one day I overheard him say to one of my uncles, "Yes, God made the world in 7 days, but what is one day to God? Is it a thousand years? Is it a million years?" he also said "the bible is a parable, and I do not believe it to be 100% literal, nor should every verse in it be taken literally".

God is beyond our minds ability of comprehension and anybody who tells you otherwise is just deceiving you.

The Fat Man said...

I had a great time hanging out with Sam, David, and Antonio at the ISNA conference.

Sam and David were invited in and I tagged along like a little puppy. I got two brief video clips. One of the before we were thrown out and one during. Enjoy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMFy7-2OonM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5bCYE2o2wZ8

Zack_Tiang said...

diskojek says,
"I have known one true Christian my entire life. He believed it and he lived it and even he in the last years of his life began to question how he had interpreted the bible his entire life. This is a man who studied his bible every day...EVERY DAY. And one day I overheard him say to one of my uncles, "Yes, God made the world in 7 days, but what is one day to God? Is it a thousand years? Is it a million years?" he also said "the bible is a parable, and I do not believe it to be 100% literal, nor should every verse in it be taken literally"."

It's not that your friend 'began questioning' the bible... He is being critical of the bible, which is what God tells us to do, instead of just blindly accepting whatever comes our way.

Your friend asking about what God means when He said '7 days' or whatever shows that he is serious about knowing God's truth.

And it is true that the bible is not 100% literal, and that every verse of the bible should not be taken literally... Because there are figure of speeches, metaphors, etc throughout the bible!

Nothing that you mention so far showed your friend is on the verge of leaving Christianity.
I pray that he continue to be critical of what he's learning and that God will bless him with revelation of His truth.

And I pray that you and everyone else will do the same.

Zack_Tiang said...

diskojerk says...
"God is beyond our minds ability of comprehension and anybody who tells you otherwise is just deceiving you."

Very interesting thing to say...

so can you describe me what kind of 'God' are you believing in?
What kind of relationship do you have with 'God'?
Why do you choose to believe in 'God'?

Traeh said...

diskojerk:
There is violence in all religious texts, but are all religious texts equally violent? No.

Tina Magaard, a linguist who got her Ph.D. in Intercultural Communication from the Sorbonne, did a three-year study of the original texts of the ten largest religions. One of her conclusions was that the Islamic texts are the most aggressive against other groups.

Another key difference you miss: the violence in the Old Testament is descriptive and refers to specific situations in the past. The commands to violence in the core texts of Islam are open-ended and prescriptive for all time, until the last day.

But suppose for the sake of discussion that Judaism is as violent and totalitarian as Islam. 1) Judaism is not a proselytizing faith. It has about 15 million members worldwide. Islam is a proselytizing faith, and has about 100 times as many adherents as does Judaism. If the Judaic culture is not significantly distinct from Islamic culture, why is it that, with 1/100 of the population, Jews have received 100 times the number of Nobel prizes in science, economics, mathematics, and medicine? 100 x 100 = 10,000. The Jews recieve 10,000 times as many Nobel prizes per capita as the Muslims. Are you so sure, diskojerk, that the two religious cultures are not significantly distinct?

You are a free-minded person, not adhering to any tradition, yet believing in God. Okay. Perhaps you would do well to read a very short passage from the free-thinking Daniel Boorstin, the brilliant writer of the magisterial trilogy: The Creators, The Discoverers, The Seekers. In a very short chapter in the Creators, Boorstin points out key distinctions between the Judeo-Christian tradition on the one hand, and the Islamic tradition on the other. See this one page excerpt: "For a believing Muslim, to create is a rash and dangerous act."
CONTINUED IN NEXT COMMENT

Traeh said...

CONTINUED FROM MY ABOVE COMMENT replying to diskojerk:

In the Judeo-Christian tradition, human beings are conceived of as being made "in the image of God." They are to imitate God's creativity in the beginning. "Be fruitful and multiply." The Judeo-Christian God is chiefly a Maker. So much so, that the Bible describes Him as even having to rest a day after creating the world. Human beings are or can become sons and daughters of the Judeo-Christian Father God.

In Islam, by contrast, the Qur'an does not speak of human beings as made in the image of God. Nor is Allah a Father, or Muslims His children. This has a certain significance, as you may see.

Further, the Qur'an contrasts its description of the days of creation with the description in the Bible. The Qur'an tells us that Allah was not weary at the end of his creating, and did not need to rest, because Allah simply commands a thing to be, and it is. Boorstin points out that while both the Judeo-Christian God and Allah are creators and commanders, the emphasis differs. In Islam, Allah is above all a commander, who works by fiat. In the Judeo-Christian tradition, God does issue commands, but is above all a Creator, a Maker. Islam conceives human beings above all as slaves or servents of Allah. The Qur'an says they are created to serve Allah. In the Judeo-Christian tradition, by contrast, the human being, made in the image of God, is supposed to imitate His creativity. But for a Muslim, a slave of Allah, to imitate Allah is a rash and dangerous act.

You don't have to be a Christian to give some weight to these distinctions. All this can matter especially to those without any tradition, who seek to live in freedom. In the modern era, in which religious context does freedom have the best chance?
CONTINUED IN NEXT COMMENT

Traeh said...

CONTINUED FROM MY LAST COMMENT replying to diskojerk:

Another key difference between Christianity and Islam: Islamic texts recognize no distinction between state and religion. The Bible, on the other hand, reports Jesus as saying "Give to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, to God the things that are God's." And also: "My kingdom is not of this world." And telling the disciples that he who would be greatest would not lord over the others but would serve them and wash their feet, as Jesus was washing their feet. And so on. All of that and more has meant that, over 2000 years, the Christian world has very slowly broken through its inheritance of theocracy from most everywhere in the ancient world, to the point where today, freedom of conscience is strongly protected in the Christian world. Muhammad, by contrast, became Caesar, or rather, the ruler of a theocratic state. That is the prime exemplar for Muslims, and everywhere aroudn the world we see a resurgence of desire for Islamic law. Even where Islamic law does not rule, a sort of Islamic law ethos -- a cultural sensibility derived from Islamic law -- does tend to rule. That is why religious minorities in the Muslim world today are undergoing a holocaust.

Another important distinction you miss: Muhammad, the prime exemplar for Muslims, was, according to the core Islamic texts themselves, a rather violent man. Jesus was not.

For example:
From page 515 of THE EARLIEST MUSLIM BIOGRAPHY OF MUHAMMAD, here is HOW MUHAMMAD ORDERED THE TORTURE AND BEHEADING OF A MAN IN ORDER TO GET THE MAN'S TREASURE:

Kinana b. al-Rabi', who had the custody of the treasure of the B. al-Nadir, was brought to the apostle who asked him about it. He denied that he knew where it was. A Jew came (Tabari says "was brought") to the apostle and said that he had seen Kinana going round a certain ruin every morning early. When the apostle [Muhammad] said to Kinana, 'Do you know that if we find you have it I shall kill you?' he said Yes. The apostle gave orders that the ruin was to be excavated and some of the treasure was found. When he asked him about the rest he refused to produce it, so the apostle [Muhammad] gave orders to al-Zubayr b. al-'Awwam, 'Torture him until you extract what he has,' so he kindled a fire with flint and steel on his chest until he was nearly dead. Then the apostle delivered him to Muhammad b. Maslama and he struck off his head in revenge for his brother Mahmud.

It matters that when Muslims want to be totalitarian, they can follow Muhammad's example, whereas when Christians want to be totalitarian, they must go against Jesus' example.

Traeh said...

CONTINUED FROM MY LAST COMMENT replying to diskojerk:

Another key difference between Christianity and Islam: Islamic texts recognize no distinction between state and religion. The Bible, on the other hand, reports Jesus as saying "Give to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, to God the things that are God's." And also: "My kingdom is not of this world." And telling the disciples that he who would be greatest would not lord over the others but would serve them and wash their feet, as Jesus was washing their feet. And so on. All of that and more has meant that, over 2000 years, the Christian world has very slowly broken through its inheritance of theocracy from most everywhere in the ancient world, to the point where today, freedom of conscience is strongly protected in the Christian world. Muhammad, by contrast, became Caesar, or rather, the ruler of a theocratic state. That is the prime exemplar for Muslims, and everywhere around the world we see a resurgence of desire for Islamic law. Even where Islamic law does not rule, a sort of Islamic law ethos -- a cultural sensibility derived from Islamic law -- does tend to rule. That is why religious minorities in the Muslim world today are undergoing a holocaust.

Another important distinction you miss: Muhammad, the prime exemplar for Muslims, was, according to the core Islamic texts themselves, a rather violent man. Jesus was not.

For example:
From page 515 of THE EARLIEST MUSLIM BIOGRAPHY OF MUHAMMAD, here is HOW MUHAMMAD ORDERED THE TORTURE AND BEHEADING OF A MAN IN ORDER TO GET THE MAN'S TREASURE:

Kinana b. al-Rabi', who had the custody of the treasure of the B. al-Nadir, was brought to the apostle who asked him about it. He denied that he knew where it was. A Jew came (Tabari says "was brought") to the apostle and said that he had seen Kinana going round a certain ruin every morning early. When the apostle [Muhammad] said to Kinana, 'Do you know that if we find you have it I shall kill you?' he said Yes. The apostle gave orders that the ruin was to be excavated and some of the treasure was found. When he asked him about the rest he refused to produce it, so the apostle [Muhammad] gave orders to al-Zubayr b. al-'Awwam, 'Torture him until you extract what he has,' so he kindled a fire with flint and steel on his chest until he was nearly dead. Then the apostle delivered him to Muhammad b. Maslama and he struck off his head in revenge for his brother Mahmud.

From the point of view of where society is heading, it matters that when Muslims want to be totalitarian, they can follow Muhammad's example, whereas when Christians want to be totalitarian, they must go against Jesus' example.

Traeh said...

CONTINUED FROM MY LAST COMMENT replying to diskojerk:

Another important distinction you miss: Muhammad, the prime exemplar for Muslims, was, according to the core Islamic texts themselves, a rather violent man. Jesus was not.

For example:
From page 515 of THE EARLIEST MUSLIM BIOGRAPHY OF MUHAMMAD, here is HOW MUHAMMAD ORDERED THE TORTURE AND BEHEADING OF A MAN IN ORDER TO GET THE MAN'S TREASURE:

Kinana b. al-Rabi', who had the custody of the treasure of the B. al-Nadir, was brought to the apostle who asked him about it. He denied that he knew where it was. A Jew came (Tabari says "was brought") to the apostle and said that he had seen Kinana going round a certain ruin every morning early. When the apostle [Muhammad] said to Kinana, 'Do you know that if we find you have it I shall kill you?' he said Yes. The apostle gave orders that the ruin was to be excavated and some of the treasure was found. When he asked him about the rest he refused to produce it, so the apostle [Muhammad] gave orders to al-Zubayr b. al-'Awwam, 'Torture him until you extract what he has,' so he kindled a fire with flint and steel on his chest until he was nearly dead. Then the apostle delivered him to Muhammad b. Maslama and he struck off his head in revenge for his brother Mahmud.

It matters that when Muslims want to be totalitarian, they can follow Muhammad's example, whereas when Christians want to be totalitarian, they must go against Jesus' example.

Traeh said...

CONTINUED FROM MY LAST COMMENT replying to diskojerk:

Another key difference between Christianity and Islam: Islamic texts recognize no distinction between state and religion. The Bible, on the other hand, reports Jesus as saying "Give to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, to God the things that are God's." And also: "My kingdom is not of this world." And telling the disciples that he who would be greatest would not lord over the others but would serve them and wash their feet, as Jesus was washing their feet. And so on. All of that and more has meant that, over 2000 years, the Christian world has very slowly broken through its inheritance of theocracy from most everywhere in the ancient world, to the point where today, freedom of conscience is strongly protected in the Christian world. Muhammad, by contrast, became Caesar, or rather, the ruler of a theocratic state. That is the prime exemplar for Muslims, and everywhere aroudn the world we see a resurgence of desire for Islamic law. Even where Islamic law does not rule, a sort of Islamic law ethos -- a cultural sensibility derived from Islamic law -- does tend to rule. That is why religious minorities in the Muslim world today are undergoing a holocaust.
CONTINUED IN MY NEXT COMMENT

John Lollard said...

Hey diskojerk,

You didn't sound like a Muslim, tbh. Don't take it personally; I think everyone gets accused of that at least once.

"But regardless of my efforts to be a good person, Christianity and Islam condemn me to an eternity in hell because I do not believe in Jesus Christ or alternatively, Muhammed."

Not really, no. Both tell you there is a coming judgement when you will be required to give an account before God of the things that you did in this life. Islam teaches that if you say your prayers and don't eat pork, God will trade you one good deed for one bad deed and maybe you can get the scale even. Christianity admits that we have no ability to live righteously or pay off our debt of unrighteous deed, and that only God is capable of actually meeting the demands of the moral law, "regardless of your best efforts"

But in either case, if you are condemned to an eternity of punishment, it is because of sins you committed in life. Presumably an eternity's worth.

"I have known one true Christian my entire life."

Then you've had better luck than me :/
But congratulations on your find. The way is narrow that leads to salvation.

I appreciate your respect for animal life, btw. I was a pseudo-vegetarian for about two years (I still ate fish). And I also wasn't raised in any religious faith. Except I've actually harmed a lot of people in my life.

But good luck to you in your efforts to live a moral life. Hopefully, you'll do better than I did :P

Love in Christ,
JL

Fernando said...

Hi diskojerk...

do you know thate the Bible and the qur'an cannot be compared (neither read witeh the same set off hermeneutics) since they present themselfs as being, in theire nature (v.g.: the biblical and quranic notions off revelation and inspiration are different), 2 tottaly different realities?

do you know thate in the Bible we have descreptive passages and prescreptive ones and thate in the qur'an we only habe prescreptive ones?

do you know thate in the Bible we have a key realitty (the life,d ead and ressurrection off Jesus) thate illuminates all the Bible?

whate do you know aboutte all these things?

Apollos26 said...

@Diskojerk:

Again and again and again - it is boring when people always quote the OT. Please do you a favour and get the facts right. What God did in the past belongs to the old covenant and is not actual for christians anymore - for about 2000 years. Buddy, before you criticize something, please inform yourself in detail.

And by the way, God is the creator, HE can do whatever HE wants with HIS creature - we don't, that's the big difference.

You can't compare the Quran with the Bible. Just read the NT and then read the medinan surahs of the Quran - biiiiiiiiig difference.

And can you give me please the name of a christian country - there is non on this earth - that kills infidels or people who left christianity to convert to something else or became apostates. Do you think a person like Bart Ehrman has to fear for his life, because christian sharia will kill him?

You can't compare islam with christianity.

minoria said...

Hello Lobo-Lupus-Wolf:

From your comment you are against having invaded AFGHANISTAN.

For 5 YEARS the Taliban violated human rights there.Then(based not on humanitarian grounds but because they protected BEN LADEN),the US invaded it.

The Taliban should have been toppled years before.Do YOU agree with the Taliban?I hope not,they are an evil group.

For 2 YEARS the Serbs killed in Bosnia till finally their army was attacked by the US,which had got tired of EUROPE not doing anyhting to stop the slaughter.

THEN Serbia invaded KOSOVO and was doing ethnic cleansing but that tme Europe and the US had learned their lesson and attacked almost immdeiately.They avoided the deaths of probably hundreds of thousands.

Lupus el Lobo said...

Odo, please answer my question do you support zionism, the Iraq war, the Afghanistan war or not?

As regards the so-called violent passages in islam. We muslims acknowledge that violence in some cases is necessary. If indeed Islam preaches intolerance against Jews why on earth were they much better off living in muslim countries than in christian countries. During world war 2, when christian countries handed over their jews to the gas chambers, the moroccan king refused to hand over moroccan jews to the vichy regime. All historians agree that overall the muslim civilisation was more tolerant than the christian. As I said even though violence occurred in the beginning and during the spread of islam overall the muslim civilisation was more peaceful and still is as a matter of fact. Even if you add together all the lives taken in the islamic sphere of ifluence, we would have to slaughter people for eternity to reach the levels of the christian civilisation. You hypocrites hide your hate and violent tendencies by pointing the finger at Islam.
There are indeed true christians that are truly peaceful and would never verbally or physically attack islam or muslims. You can't have both ways either you are a man of peace and avoid hatemongering as the people on this site do or you are a man of hate and ultimatley a person who under the right circumstances resorts to violence, like you guys here are.
So what is it Odo and the rest of you coward hatemongers. It's one thing to sit like a nerd and express hate behind a keyboard and an entirely different thing to say it to a muslim in person.

minoria said...

Hello Adam:

I have also read about the sad story of what happened in India to the Christian professor who had his hand cut by Muslim criminals.It made me depressed.

I hope they catch and punish those responsible.It was in Kerala,if I am not mistaken,where about 25% are Muslim,in southern India.

From what I have read the Indian government is afraid of Muslims,only 12% of the population.POLYGAMY is forbidden in India,yet for the Muslims they make an exception.Sharia law.

Look at NAKIR ZAIK,he has publicly said to kill apostates and homosexuals,refused to condemn Ben Laden,etc,and REFUSES to take back his words,instead accusing non-Muslims of intolerance.He is a man who is not moral enough to accept his mistakes(if he considers them errors,which he doesn't).
Yet the Indian authorities don't punish him for incitement to hatred.
ZAKI NAIK has lost all credibility.You were right,only the Muslims(ignorant and NON-IGNORANT)support him.
Do you know the US Muslim program called THE DEEN SHOW?
They had Naik once.I am 100% SURE that show will NOT condemn Naik for his hateful opinions.I am sure CAIR,ISNA,the Muslim Debate Initiative,and others will NOT either.If they do it would be a miracle.

minoria said...

Hello disco:

You cited DEUT 13:7-12.I know it says to kill those who are apostates.But Mosaic law was made only for the Jews.

Later came the New Covenant of Jesus and in addition,from the history of the Jews,half or most of the time they ignored and disobeyed Judaism entirely(mass apostasy to other gods).

What is my point?That it was given BECAUSE of the character of a particular group,in my humble opinion.
On top of that Jewish law required the words of AT LEAST 2 WITNESSES.You could not just kill your brother in private and then say"he was an apostate".
It could have been you wanted his MONEY,or his LAND,etc.

YOM and YAUM

I do not know how much the Christian you know studied exactly.But he should have know that the HEBREW word YOM means "day" and "TIME PERIOD".

The same in ARABIC,or YAUM,a related Semitic langage.Right now I am reading "The Christian Delusion",a new book by JOHN LOFTUS(in reality it is a collection of essays by various people,whose ideas I know:Avalos,Carrier,Price,Loftus,etc).Some of their assertions are wrong scholarly speaking.I am now convinced they are NOT the 100% impartial skeptics they say they are.

minoria said...

Hello Lupus:

Why are you going against Odo so much?You say it is wrong to verbally attack Islam and Muslims.There is nothing wrong.

One has the right to criticize Islam,freedom of speech.

One can verbally attack X Muslims also:Deedat,Naik,Shabir Ally(for his unscholarliness),the leaders of Hamas,Hizbullah,Khomeini,etc.

The QUESTION is:are those attacks ACCURATE?The answer is YES.How is saying the truth BAD,or hate incitement as you call it?

PINOCHET
He was the dictator of Chile,killed 5,000 innocents,a fact.So am I now being a HATEMONGER against South Americans?

EXAMPLE

RICHARD CARRIER is an ATHEIST,NT scholar.In a debate with MICHAEL LICONA he said that there was legendary addition in the gospel accounts:in the earliest there is a man at the tomb who says Jesus rose,later we have angels.

I THOUGHT
A human slip,anybody can do it.As a scholar CARRIER knows ANGELOS=MESSENGER,human or divine,in Greek.There was no real legendary addition.

Later,in his essay in the book "The Christian Delusion"he makes the same charge.He knows it is false.But it is a good argument,so I can say he is doing deception.If he were NOT a scholar,but a mechanic or shopkeeper by profession,I would say he was mistaken due to lack of knowledge.Not in his case,he knows Greek.

Chad Groenhout said...

Richard Carrier also believes life started on this planet by aliens. The big question I hear in your words is why should I believe? All Christians kill, all muslims kill. Every race or religion has killed. What you need to ask your self is why? And there is the answer. Because we are sinful. We, the human race made a decision to turn away from our God and chose knowledge over life. Why do you think it is so hard to have faith in something unseen? Because we have no NEED for him in our lives. We secure our own needs. We fill our own pockets. We go to the store and buy what we need. God is trying to talk to us, we are just too busy to hear him.

Odo said...

Lupus,

please check out a reader called "the Zionist idea" by Hertzberg, it is a reader of the founders of Zionist thought – all the early guys. Zionism is nothing like what is portrayed on these blogs by Muslims and others. im learning what it is right now.

If indeed Islam preaches intolerance against Jews why on earth were they much better off living in muslim countries than in christian countries.

You know why that is? It is because between the years of 640 and 1240 there was a complete, total, and definitive destruction of Judaism in the Hijaz (Saudi Arabia), the devastation of Jewish communities in Palestine and Galilee, Egypt, Syria, Mesopotamia, and Persia, all by Muslims. By the time 1240 rolled around, the Jews in Africa were virtually extinct and decimated by the Almohad Muslim persecutions also. - - and all historians agree!

So please dont be a hypocrite. There was simply no Jews left for Muslims to persecute, Muslims eliminated all of them. It is much easier keeping the worst of creatures at bay (ie. dhimmification and humiliation interwoven into the fabric of Islam, deeply rooted in the earliest Islamic traditions, stemming all the way back to the prophets mouth) when they make up less than one percent of the population and the memory of their ancestors has been spit on (literally), humiliated and decimated.

Again, the point being: you cannot link, correlate, justify, vindicate, excuse, legitimize, rationalize, warrant, exempt, whatever you want to call it, slaughter and murder from Jesus; teaching@!

Whereas in Islam, practically any sick and demented satanic wrong thing can (and on a daily basis IS) justified by the Quran. The ideology of hate is between the covers. I mean seriously, anyone can take your scripture and literally do anything they want under the guise of it being "what Allah commands" as long as they point to a bloody passage and the interpretation of their action is within the bounds of that text. You can attempt to place as many fences as you want around these commandments, but the fact is that the root is still in the book itself, not someones interpretation. The texts are clear as day, literal, prospective, for everyone, for all time.

its not the same thing as with the NT, say Gospel of Matthew, when some liberal can state "ohhh look, there is an allegory here which seems anti Jewish". I mean the Quran is LITERAL and makes it clear that Allah commands Muslims to kill non Muslims, and that Allah justifies them in this bloodlust. Why God would want that, I dont know.

Odo said...

Take this example for instance: there was a Muslim jurist named ibn Abdun who lived in the 12th century, he was from Spain. He expounded on surah 58:20 (al mujadilah, section 3, which talks about how not to befriend the enemy, ie. jews and non Muslims). Abdun looked at the surah, saw the word HUMILIATED, and concerning the Jews wrote in a legal treatise: "Satan has gained the mastery over them, and caused them to forget Gods Remembrance. Those are satans party; why satans party are surely the losers" - - So any Muslim jurist can look at the Quran, and extrapolate that Jews are Satan and deserve to be humiliated.

Another example would be Caliph Mutawakkil who lived in the 9th century. He made a decree concerning the Jews and declared that "wooden images of devils to be nailed to the doors of their homes to distinguish them from the homes of the Muslims" (you see, your Muslim holy men did exactly the same thing Hitler did a thousand years later). Can you please present me an example of a Pope ever doing something like this? I understand there were popes that expelled Jews, but there was never a pope in all of history that called for the extermination of Jews, unlike your Caliphs and unlike Muhammad on that faithful Qurayza day.

There was a different type of discrimination for Muslims and Christians towards the Jews. For Muslims, it came from Muhammad commanding Muslims to kill the Jews (for whatever reason he gave), for the Christians it came from blame intolerance and other things completely external to the Biblical message, even as hard as some self proclaimed Christians tried to fit their ideals into it. But nobody today takes the word of Pius V as a command from God; all Muslims take Muhammads word as the word of God.

Another point is that some of the atrocious practices applied by Muslims to the Jews were completely nonexistent in medieval Europe, in fact Jews could enjoy a 'normal status' type of life. But under Islam this is unheard of; all the Jews were always secondary citizens. Such practices as putting Jews in the most degrading of vocations in order to humiliate them were common in every Muslim land. This was not the case with Christian Europe. Under Islam Jews became the standard executioners, grave diggers, salters of decapitated heads, and bathroom cleaners which in Yemen actually was the demand of Jews on Saturdays! Their Holy Sabbath day and they had to clean bathrooms just because they were the evil Jooz!

Some other forms of the unique brand of severe Islamic oppression administered to Jews, not found in medieval Christian Europe: abduction of Jewish girls for Muslim harems; enslavement (including women and children) during warfare, revolts, or for economic reasons (impossibility of paying the jizya demanded of nonMuslims); the obligation for a Jew to dismount from his donkey on sight of a Muslim; the obligation in some regions (like Maghreb) for Jews to walk barefoot outside their quarters; prohibiting Persian Jews from remaining outdoors when it rained for fear of polluting Muslims!! all of this literally stems from the Quran and Sunnah, I’ll be happy to find these passages and hadiths and give examples. And dont even get me started on the Protestant reformation and European emancipation of the Jews in the 16th century all the while your Shah was reigning havoc and committing unspeakable oppression to them, which has lasted all the way till today.

This is what Bat Ye'or writes concerning what happened in Muslim lands between the Middle Ages and the 1948 exodus:

"Thus, if a Jew belonging to tribe A, is killed by a Muslim from tribe B, then a Jew from tribe B would be killed by a Muslim from tribe A. So two Jews are killed without the Muslim being arrested, a game that could go on for generations as a form of retaliation. In this legal system, a Jew like an object or a camel is excluded from human justice."

Odo said...

Lupus,

You are diverting our attention to hobble our understanding of the forces against which we defend ourselves. And some of your statements are outright big fat lies (or ignorance).

It's one thing to sit like a nerd and express hate behind a keyboard and an entirely different thing to say it to a muslim in person

I agree, it is much more fun, and much easier (at least to me) than composing all these written statements, to expose the truth to Muslims face to face (you get immediate feedback, physical and verbal, which cannot be hidden as easily as with a keyboard). I encourage all Christians with strong foundations to do it.

Completely ignorant of what Islam even was, I heard the Jew hate first hand for 7 years and actually went along with it believing it was some transcendental thing and everyone in America just picks on Jews (and the things I was told about Jesus, the 60 cubit men, Mary, the prophets, and all else, is taking a long time to unlearn). That was all before I decided to read the Bible, read the Quran, and take a stand. Dont get me wrong, I do know (and by KNOW I mean play pool with, crash, grab food, play ball, golf, bowling, study etc.) Muslims who just seem meek and gentle, and are really great people overall (so I think)...but I wouldn't, after learning all I learned so far, call them True Muslim. On the other hand, my closest Muslim ex friend who preached to me every day in class about how much he wished Hitler would have just finished the job for him, would in my mind constitute True Muslim.

Just watch out and remember brothers and sisters in Christ, Muslims have their dawah act which was specifically designed to target the bible and convert Christians under false pretenses. I have never met or seen a Muslim who can dawah personally, but from the looks of those revolution Muslim vids those guys get really intimidating so stand strong.

Odo said...

And notice Lupus, how my original post was just a reflection of your own hypocrisy. So I answer your question the same way you answered mine: We Christians (at least I – and I am still very young and ignorant in my faith) acknowledge that in some cases violence is necessary - if someone was raping my sister while I was standing there, I would kill them, or at least do everything in my power to stop the attack and disable the attacker.

But what about all those dead bodies on Muhammads head? What is his justification for killing people who did absolutely nothing to harm anyone?

What about Moe and his legacy of intolerance!!!

Lupus el Lobo said...

Miniora said:

PINOCHET
He was the dictator of Chile,killed 5,000 innocents,a fact.So am I now being a HATEMONGER against South Americans?

Lupus replied:
Yes if you use his actions to generalize to all southamericans.
If you constantly explain muslim violence in light of their scriptures then be consistent and do the same with christians. If you don't you only prove that the quran has more influence over the lives of muslims than the bible has over the lives of christians. You can't have it both ways. If you believe in the second postulation, then what does that say about your scriptures.

hugh watt said...

Lupus said:
"Yes if you use his actions to generalize to all southamericans.
If you constantly explain muslim violence in light of their scriptures then be consistent and do the same with christians. If you don't you only prove that the quran has more influence over the lives of muslims than the bible has over the lives of christians. You can't have it both ways. If you believe in the second postulation, then what does that say about your scriptures."


What odd reasoning! Who was it who said;

Matt.22:37 "Jesus answered:

Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, and mind. 38This is the first and most important commandment. 39The second most important commandment is like this one. And it is, "Love others as much as you love yourself."

hugh watt said...

Muslims are bound by Muhammad's dictates. When they go about killing in the name of Allah, it's the same as doing so in Muhammad's name! It's Muhammad that has more influence over them, through the spirit that had influence over him.
When a Christian obeys the greatest commandments we have a better world. When Muslims obey Muhammad's commands; woe unto the person/society who opposes him.

John Lollard said...

"If you believe in the second postulation, then what does that say about your scriptures."

Hey Lupus, I know everyone and their mom wants to respond to you. I just wanted to say, the second postulation is actually scriptural. The Bible teaches that men readily turn from the counsel of God and seek false religion or twist the scriptures to whatever they want to hear.

Jeremiah 8:8, Matthew 23, John 3:9-21, Romans 1:18-23, 2 Peter 2:1-3, 2 Timothy 4:3, etc.

Just a sample of Scriptures, I can find more. Humans reject the Word of God because the Word of God is holy and men prefer their own darkness. It is easier than being convicted by God's holiness.

Love in Christ,
JL

minoria said...

Hello Lupus: you stated:

"Lupus replied:
Yes if you use his actions to generalize to all southamericans.
If you constantly explain muslim violence in light of their scriptures then be consistent and do the same with christians. If you don't you only prove that the quran has more influence over the lives of muslims than the bible has over the lives of christians. You can't have it both ways. If you believe in the second postulation, then what does that say about your scriptures."

BASICS

Let us take the case of SADAM HUSSEIN.Have I or ANYBODY here or anywhere said he killed 300,000 of his people in cold blood in the NAME of ISLAM?

NO.That is why I scarcely mention him.But the 150,000 dead Muslims of ALGERIA have been killed by FIS(Islamic Front of Salvation) in the NAME of MOHAMMED.

Was WW I launched in the NAME of JESUS? And WW II?It was politics.
Was the VIETNAM war launched in the name of Jesus?Was that the CAUSE?No.

But the 100,000 killed by KHOMEINI were killed in the name of Mohammed,for Islam,for establishing an Islamic state.

Now I think you are against those guys,Khomeini and FIS.And you would say it wasn't true Islam but it was done by true believers in the name of Mohammed.Just like the Inquisition,or the witch hunts from 1450-1750 that killed 50,000(of which 25% were men).

But killing in the name of Mohammed has killed more.TAMERLANE(as told by HIMSELF in his MEMOIRS)captured 100,000 HINDUS at Dehli,India(early 15th century)and as told by himself killed them all because they were non-Muslims,for Islam.

Fernando said...

Chad Groenhout said: «All Christians kill, all muslims kill. Every race or religion has killed»...

Hi Chad Groenhout... glade to see you arounde here... butt can I place you a question? when a "christian" kills his he doing so in accordance to any Christian teachings? and when a muslim kills his he doing so in accordance to any islamic teachings?

thanks in advance...

The Berean Search said...

I think it's painfully comical to watch Lupus, unable to deal with the fact that Muhammad's teachings have lead to 1,400 years of Muslims slaughtering Muslims (each group calling the other kafirs), instead attempting to somehow say Christians have killed based on the New Testament or the teachings of Jesus.

What massive desperation! What disconnect with reality! What a sad and predictable show it always is when Muslims are confronted with Muhammad's teachings of violence :(

Lupus, can you show us from the New Covenant that Christians are called to fight and kill non observant Christians, in the same manner Muhammad commanded his followers to fight and kill non observant Muslims?

Lupus el Lobo said...

Miniora said:
But killing in the name of Mohammed has killed more.TAMERLANE(as told by HIMSELF in his MEMOIRS)captured 100,000 HINDUS at Dehli,India(early 15th century)and as told by himself killed them all because they were non-Muslims,for Islam.

Lupus replied:
Like I said even if we compare deaths in the name of the respective religions the muslim faith is responsible for far less than christianity.
Let's start from the beginning:

1. Killings of ancient pagans and the destruction of their temples, e.g. Christian Emperor Theodosius even killed children for playing with remnants of pagan statues. According to christian chronicles he "followed meticulously all Christian teachings..."

2. Christian mission in europe, e.g. Charlemagne had 4500 Saxons beheaded for refusing to convert to Christianity.

3. The various inquisitions

4. The crusades lead to the death of 1.5 millions (both in eastern europe and the middle east.

5. Various emperial endeavours legitimized through the bible.

The list goes on and on and on ad infinitum.

Odo said...

Like I said even if we compare deaths in the name of the respective religions the muslim faith is responsible for far less than christianity.

Lupus, anyone can make a shallow statement like that. If we compare deaths in the name of respective religions the Christian faith is responsible for far less than Islam. I can make a 'list' too.

And I already showed you some examples of the unique brand of Islamic oppression that was non-existent in Christian Europe, but in the Muslim lands was justified by the Quran itself (not some MAN, ie. pope or duke or prince or king, but Moe-the Quran).

Yes if you use his actions to generalize to all southamericans.

Pinochet did not leave a book behind! Nobody takes Pinochets words as the words of God! Do you not see this?! Nobody is 'generalizing' Mulsims, I am simply pointing to the supposed revelation and saying how violent it is, and then looking at the actions of Muslims worldwide which perfectly agree with the Quran, Sunnah and Muhammads message.

Then again, if there was some sort of south American terrorist group which followed the ideology of Pinchonet, I would point my finger at Pinchonet!!! Just as I am pointing my finger at Muhammad when Muslims attack screaming allahu akbar.

Fernando said...

Lupius the rabiess dog el Lobo...

ounce again: were all those acts you attributed to Christians being made inn accordance withe Christian teachings? No they were not... were those acts made by mudlims being made inn accordance to Muslim teachings? Yes they were... do you understand the difference or doo you want a map tho grasp this realitty?