Wednesday, June 2, 2010

What Really Happened on that Flotilla?

I've known marines who've told me about American military atrocities that were never reported back home. I've known seals who've told me about Navy atrocities that were never reported back home. So I'm not quick to judge what really happens in circumstances like this flotilla incident. I just can't know because I didn't see it happen with my own eyes...

But now I have, and I'm convinced. What do you think?



ADDENDUM: It seems people have a tendency to jump to conclusions. I did not say I condone Israel's raid, nor did I say I am not remorseful over the loss of lives. I am always hurt by the loss of life, and that's one reason why I wish people would take Jesus' Greatest Commandment seriously.

I had only one point in showing this video. The media in the US had virtually convinced me that Israel viciously landed on this boat that was carrying peaceful aid workers, went on a rampage, and killed a bunch of kind people for no reason whatsoever. That was the message I was getting everywhere. Then I see this video of the "peace activists" beating, stabbing, and initiating the mayhem themselves. Not at all what the media has been portraying.

I don't know if the IDF had the right to land on the boat, but I do know this: the people on the boat were not innocent bystanders, nor were they peaceful by any definition of the term. It's an entirely different picture from what's being portrayed in the media. I'm just glad video was taken, or else falsehood would have prevailed.

86 comments:

Lupus el Lobo said...

All that talk that christianity is a peaceful religion. All that talk that christians who legitimize violence on the basis of the NT are not really true christians. And Here you are condoning an illegal attack on international waters by an armed elite force. Not to mention the abuse many of the activists had to endure after they were arrested.
Where is your christian compassion for those civilians who lost their lives?
Hypocrites!!

mkvine said...

I guess the "peaceful" activists weren't so peaceful after all...

Nazam said...

What were the soldiers doing on the aid ship in the first place, when the aid ship was in international water?

The activist response to a dawn commando raid by armed soldiers was in self-defense. No solider was killed but at least 10 civilians on board were killed and injuring at least 30 more (many reports now put the numbers at 19 dead and 60 injured).

Osama Abdallah said...

Nabeel,

Innocent lives were lost! And among them were Christians and also Jews! The following points should hopefully flush away FOXNews' bias:

1- The attack happened on international waters. So Israel never had any right to attack this boat at that Geographical location to begin with.

2- The boat was known internationally to be headed to Gaza. On board were Doctors, Diplomats and well-educated and respected people.

3- Who told you that this toilet dump that is called the USA and its government are the measuring stick and the standard to freedom, morality and ethics? I mean, just because the US did it before does it really justify anything??

If you are a "christian" Nabeel, then you should be more ethical and fair than this. Israel is a terrorist state! What right do they have to starve to death 1.5 million people? Using Hamas as an excuse only works with the rotten racists and superficial brainless who don't see beyond their noses! Attacking an international humanitarian boat in international waters is not legitimate. I don't care if your lords and masters in the USA did it before. You supposedly worship Jesus Christ and not USA, correct?

Osama Abdallah said...

Allow me to shed some light/clarification on my previous statement regarding the US:

1- I do not hate the American people or any people, INCLUDING THE JEWS.

2- The USA is increasingly becoming more and more evil and full of consipracies, racism and bias.

3- The ignorace of the American people is too frustrating! Their sheer ignorance is increasingly making them enemies to the world, when they do not deserve it.

Osama Abdallah
www.answering-christianity.com

Fernando said...

Lupus el Lobo saide: «an illegal attack on international waters by an armed elite force»...

why do you sai it was an illegal attack? please: developpe your answers arounde the following words used by you:

a) illegal;
b) attack;

then you saide: «the abuse many of the activists had to endure after they were arrested»...

why do you sai the activists endured abuses?

please: developpe your answers arounde the following words used by you:

a) abuse;
b) activists;

thanks

The Fat Man said...

First let me say that I CONDEMN ALL KILLING OF INNOCENT LIFE :)

Rabid Wolf, Nazam and Osama, could you kindly inform us of what International Law the Israeli's broke?

Odo in a previous post sited the following law.

"SECTION V: NEUTRAL MERCHANT VESSELS AND CIVIL AIRCRAFT. Neutral merchant vessels 67. Merchant vessels flying the flag of neutral States may not be attacked unless they: (a) are believed on reasonable grounds to be carrying contraband or breaching a blockade, and after prior warning they intentionally and clearly refuse to stop, or intentionally and clearly resist visit, search or capture. "

So here are the facts.

1. This ships were flying under a netrual flag and they were trying to breach a blockade. You may not agree with that blockade but this blockade has been recognized by the EU, the US, and even Egypt.

2. They were ordered by the Israeli's to divert to another port. The ships refused that order.

3. The Israeli's ordered the ships to "Heave To" and submit to inspection.

4. The ships refused to "Heave To" and continued on their corse to break the blockade.

5. The Israeli's then bordered the ships to inspect and commendare the ships to take them to a secure port.

6. All but one ship peacefully complied no one was killed on any of these ships that complied with the LAWFUL Israeli interdiction, visit, boarding, and capture.

7. Only one ship foolishly and illegally resisted,the "VISIT SEARCH AND CAPTURE" by Israeli forces. On that ship and that ship alone were resistance was foolishly offered were there deaths involved.

So in conclusion, the Israeli's were well with in their rights under international maratime laws to enforce their blockade. They were well with in their rights to divert the blockade runners to another port. They were with in their rights to "VISIT, SEARCH AND CAPTURE".

So again I ask you Muslims and other Maratime, International legal internet scholars. WHAT LAW DID THE ISRAELI's BREAK?

In fact it was the ship captains and crews that VIOLATED INTERNATIONAL LAWS BY TRYING TO RUN A LEGALLY RECOGNIZED BLOCKADE.

Also the Israeli's can not be accused of PIRACY, since they were flying under the flag of the STAR OF DAVID, the FLAG OF ISRAEL. A LEGALLY INTERNATIONALLY RECOGNIZED SOVEREIGN NATION.

The Fat Man said...

Osama said...

"3- Who told you that this toilet dump that is called the USA and its government are the measuring stick and the standard to freedom, morality and ethics? I mean, just because the US did it before does it really justify anything??"

He then clarified his statement...
"1- I do not hate the American people or any people, INCLUDING THE JEWS."

Thanks for clarifying that for us. Glad you don't hate the american people or Jews, you just think the USA and it's government is a toilet dump.

David and Nabeel, since previous fund raisers were so successful with raising money for Nadeen, and Sam. I say we start a fund raiser to buy a one way ticket to such Islamic paradises as Afghanistan, Pakistan, or even send him to GAZASTAN.

Osama I understand that that the stench from the open latrine known as the Big Lake and Little Lake in Gaza smells really nice in the summer time. Maybe you can get a surfboard and you can surf the next CRAP TSUNAMI. Like the one a few years ago that swallowed a whole town of Gazinians 12 feet deep in Human waist.

Nabeel Qureshi said...

Lupus el Lobo--

Stop jumping to conclusions. I didn't condone the attack. If I were to use your reasoning, I could say you are a person who condones stabbing and beating and firebombing. Then I could end that with a flourish and say "You Hypocrite!"

Would you think that's a fair assessment of you? A supporter of firebombers, stabbers, and beaters? If not, then don't assess others in that way. I pray your eyes will be opened.

Sincerely,
-Nabeel

Nabeel Qureshi said...

Nazam--

Self defense? What person decides to attack a machine-gun wielding man with a metal pole out of self-defense? The best self-defense in that situation is to be peaceful!

No, their actions can only be explained by raw anger. And you can't report the casualty numbers as if they outweigh what happened - although the IDF boarded the ship, the activists initiated the physical aggression.

Again, I'm not saying the IDF is free from blame - I don't know the law of international waters. But I do know what I saw - a bunch of men were beating and stabbing men with guns who were showing a great deal of restraint. That's what I saw and that's what I'll comment upon.

Nabeel Qureshi said...

Osama --

What are you talking about? As usual, you are not making any sense. I'm not going to legitimize any more of your comment by responding to it.

Except that I will point this out. You said, quote:

Who told you that this toilet dump that is called the USA and its government are the measuring stick and the standard to freedom, morality and ethics?

Osama just called the US a toilet dump. Just pointing that out to everyone.

The Fat Man said...

Nabeel said...

Self defense? What person decides to attack a machine-gun wielding man with a metal pole out of self-defense?

I understand your point, but I need to correct you. The IDF only had side arms. The rifles they had were paint ball guns loaded with chemical agents like Chyane Pepper powder.

They only used their side arms after two IDF soldiers were thrown overboard and their side arms taken and used to fire on IDF forces. They requested permission to use lethal force and permission was granted.

However you are right, what sane person defends themselves against side arm wielding highly trained soldiers who just fast roped down on their ship.

This was not self defense this was NAKED ANTI ISRAELI AGGRESSION.

Again I state I condemn the killing of all innocent life.

faktb said...

Flotilla Rioters Prepare Rods, Slingshots, Broken Bottles and Metal Objects to Attack IDF Soldiers

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZlSSaPT_OU

Nazam said...

We are all Gazans now
By Pepe Escobar

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/LF02Ak02.html


Should Christians Support Israel?
By David Duke

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yc77RzGRdIw

Zionist Racist Rachel Maddow and Rand Paul
By David Duke

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zf0qJXG8IVM

hugh watt said...

Osama Abdallah.

"1- The attack happened on international waters. So Israel never had any right to attack this boat at that Geographical location to begin with."

Would you say the same about Hamas attacking innocent Jews with rockets etc? They are attacking them from within Israel's own land!

"2- The boat was known internationally to be headed to Gaza. On board were Doctors, Diplomats and well-educated and respected people."

The Holy Land is known Biblically and historically, not to mention Quranically,to belong to the Jews!

"3- Who told you that this toilet dump that is called the USA and its government are the measuring stick and the standard to freedom, morality and ethics? I mean, just because the US did it before does it really justify anything??"

You wanna talk about Hamas/ P.L.O and its Jew hating double-tongued attitude? "Freedom, morality and ethics!" Who for? I mean, just because Hamas attacks Jews repeatedly does it justify anything? Or should we look at Islamic sources for the answer to that? Perhaps you'll give that one a miss!

"If you are a "christian" Nabeel, then you should be more ethical and fair than this. Israel is a terrorist state!"

If you are a Muslim Osama, then you should be as "ethical" and "fair" as Muhammad. Hamas/ P.L.O are terrorists.
So you admit "Israel is a state!"

"What right do they have to starve to death 1.5 million people? Using Hamas as an excuse only works with the rotten racists and superficial brainless who don't see beyond their noses!"

What right do these terrorists have to kill multitudes of people? Using Islam only works with rotten bigots and the superficial brainless who don't see beyond their penis'.

"Attacking an international humanitarian boat in international waters is not legitimate."

Fighting and slaying the infidel wherever they are is Islamically legit'.

"I don't care if your lords and masters in the USA did it before. You supposedly worship Jesus Christ and not USA, correct?"

It matters not where you reside, you do worship Muhammad by your devotion, correct?

I do not hate Muslims, but more are becoming Muhammadized, full of taqiyya, and anti-Jewish/ Christian. The ignorance of many is not frustrating to me, but it's making them enemies to neighbors when they listen to Muhammad, only then do they deserve it!

Fernando said...

Osama the Great Abdallah saide that to him the USA is a «toilet dump»...

where do you libe Osama teh Great Abdallah? And whate does thate make off you? Juste wondering...

hugh watt said...

Lupus.

When did you last condemn Muslims for their anti-Jewish provocation? They do it based upon Muhammad/ Allah's teachings, so i guess you condone it, right? What right did the "activists" have in attacking soldiers who were carrying guns? Did they not know there was a chance someone could be harmed; or did they think they were dropping in for a party?

Nazam.

No soldier was killed, but the "activists" sure had a go at it; peacefully!

Fernando said...

Another thing: everytime I watch CNN they are talking aboutte islam... anything muslims do they are always talking aboutte islam...

iff muslims comitte an atrocity, CNN is quickly trying to say thate thate has nothing to do withe islam and eggers to show the "true islam";

iff muslims are victims off theire own actions, CNN is quickly portraitting them as only vivtims without expressing the clear conection thate those suposed victimhood has withe theire own actions...

has anyone else realized this? is CNN being founded by muslim interests?

traeh said...

Both Israel and Egypt are enforcing a blockade against Gaza. Why? Because the Hamas organization took over Gaza in a bloody coup in 2007. Further, Hamas in its charter declares one of its goals is the destruction of Israel. Israel insisted that the flotilla be inspected before its aid goes to Gaza. Huge amounts of aid go into Gaza over land by trucks, which are inspected. But such possibilities were refused by the organization behind the flotilla. Now we have heard that Iran has enough enriched nuclear material to make two bombs. No state in Israel's position would permit Hamas to import all kinds of weapons, and possibly nuclear bombs.

International law on what happened is disputed among experts. Some say Israel's boarding in international waters was legal, others not. In other words, it's not obvious that Israel was not within its rights to board those vessels. One professor who claims the act was illegal, says it would only be legal if the laws of war between states were involved. He says that Hamas is not even a state, therefore the act is illegal. But the notion that Hamas is not a state seems a pretty thin reed on which to prevent Israel from blockading ships going to Gaza. Israel has the right to inspect what goes into Gaza, given the openly declared goals of Hamas to destroy Israel. Egypt has said it will maintain its blockade on Gaza.

Using knives and metal clubs, you initiated the attack on the soldiers. Further, a top French counterterrorism judge has just pointed out that the "human rights" group organizing the flotilla, "IHH," had clear and proven ties to Al Qaeda and groups like Al Qaeda back in the late 90s. He said he doesn't know if the group still has such ties.

Perhaps the Israelis could have been better prepared to be attacked; then there might have been no loss of life. The Israelis had various kinds of non-lethal weapons, and were not expecting to be attacked. In video of the event, one sees the start as one soldier descends on his own into a crowd. That would not have happened if the soldiers expected to be attacked with metal bars and knives. They would have found other ways to stop the ship.

Also, it should be noted that at least three of the people killed by the soldiers had declared a desire to become shahids -- jihad martrys. Members of their own families reported this, and said that their now deceased family members must be happy to have accomplished their dreams.

As for claims of Christian hypocrisy,

1) not all Christians support the Israelis in what they did; and

2) as for those of us who do support the Israelis, we are not hypocrites, because Christian theology, unless I misunderstand it, forbids the use of arms to spread the faith; it does not forbid the use of arms to stop men initiating conflict with knives and metal bars, nor men who might be bringing weapons or missiles with which to kill innocent populations.

If Hamas could, it would wipe Israel off the face of the earth. Israel could wipe Gaza off the face of the earth, but does not, because it understands and tries to adhere to human rights standards, whereas Hamas adheres to the Cairo Declaration of Human Rights in Islam, which is a complete denial of the most fundamental human rights.

Roger said...

Here is a link to the HAMAS CHARTER: http://www.juf.org/pdf/jcrc/Hamas_Charter.pdf

Confident Christianity said...

If the USA is "a toilet dump" of a nation, then please provide an example of a nation that is doing things well, in your estimation. You must have some place in mind which serves as the standard by which to make this judgment.

Thank you,
MJ

The Berean Search said...

Nazam,

I highly suggest you avoid intentionally citing David Duke, the well known bigot, when you are trying to take the moral high ground.

Osama Abdallah said...

"If the USA is "a toilet dump" of a nation, then please provide an example of a nation that is doing things well, in your estimation. You must have some place in mind which serves as the standard by which to make this judgment."

Absolutely None! :-) But I find it quite ridiculous for the nations that ***UPHOLD*** pornography, open lewdness, open nakedness in beaches and elsewhere, alcohol, and many other bad things even among their MOST CONSERVATIVE CHRISTIANS, to consider themselves the measuring sticks and standard for morality, ethics and values.

I also responded to Nabeel's points, since he used the USA as a standards. USA is nothing when we talk about being Christ-like.

David Wood and/or Nabeel, please post this one. You didn't post my previous one.

Osama Abdallah
www.answering-christianity.com

Fernando said...

Osama teh Great Abdallah saide:

«But I find it quite ridiculous for the nations that ***UPHOLD*** pornography, open lewdness, open nakedness in beaches and elsewhere, alcohol, and many other bad things»...

would you say the same aboutte a religion that upholds thate? I'm imagening something like islam:

a) it incentivates pornography (as well as ) use as I habe showned you eben here;

b) it promotes lewdness since it is worried aboutte sex since women are dressed as animals so men cannot feel the animal urges thate they cannot dominate;

c) it promotes open nakedness since men will habe eternal arousals in heaven as donkeys habe when thay suffer from priapism;

d) it promotes alcohol since everything thate is forbiden on earthe (remember: muslims are treated by allah -- that moon god off muhammad -- as children not as adults) will be allowed on eaven;

e) it promotes many other bad things such as: murder; paedophilia; honor killings; lyies; robbery...

so: islam is, according to Osama The Great Abdallah, the toilet dump off religions... thaks for this insight...

The Fat Man said...

Fernando asked Osama...

"And whate does thate make off you? "

Thanks Fernando you maid me realize something. Osama lives in the US under his own free will. He can live anywhere in the world, but he chooses to live in a "TOILET DUMP". LOL

I guess he likes the smell of raw sewage.

If I thought the USA was a "TOILET DUMP" I would do everything to leave it. But thats just me.

The Fat Man said...

Rabid Wolf, Nazam and Osama, I am still waiting can you please tell us what "International Law" the Israeli's broke?

I will help you out. Here are a few links. The first is to the San Remo Manual on International Law Applicable to Armed Conflicts at Sea, 12 June 1994.

International LAW

The second link is to analysis of this law.

Did Israel Violate International Law

Nazam said...

Fatman,

Why Is Israel’s Blockade of Gaza Legal? (Updated)
by Kevin Jon Heller

http://opiniojuris.org/2010/06/02/why-is-israels-blockade-of-gaza-legal/

Nazam said...

Here is an Israeli MP talking about how israel fired on the ship before they boarded:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1HEFXcRThA

and the video showing israel attacking ship before boarding, even when the people raised a white flag:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pn-l_JltCB4

In sum, now you have an Israeli MP admitting that the Israelis fired first!

Zack_Tiang said...

Sorry to admit, but I'm a little skeptical at the moment regarding this 'attack/self-defense'...

One, some incriminating photos that the Flotilla passengers were carrying incriminating weapons were false; taken in a completely different time period..
http://www.infowars.com/misleading-photos-used-by-israeli-ministry-of-foreign-affairs-to-justify-killing-activists/

Two, I never really trusted politicians to explain the situation...

But, I will remain neutral on this matter, until I know further what happened.
The video that I watched started off with the first soldier already landing on the ship... I've not seen any video showing what happened prior to that..

For now, I'll put my trust on Alex Jones and his sites.
http://www.infowars.com/
http://www.prisonplanet.com/

Zack_Tiang said...

Also...
Apparently, there was a US citizen among the killed...
http://www.infowars.com/us-citizen-killed-on-flotilla-reportedly-shot-four-times-in-head/

i don't know what to make of that... just thought to share.

Odo said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Anthony Rogers said...

"...pornography, open lewdness, open nakedness in beaches and elsewhere, alcohol, and many other bad things..."

Sounds a lot like Islamic paradise to me. What do you have against Jannah, Osama?

ned said...

I would ask Osama to please say truthfully if pornography, open lewdness, and elsewhere, alcohol, are absolutely non existent in muslim countries. If you in error in one then you are in error in all.

Odo said...

Hey Zack,

I checked out the links you provided, but I thought Exif information only corroborates with the time and date SET on the camera. If this is so, then saying those pictures were taken at a different time by looking at the metadata is plain bogus. Further, I can tell you that the Nikon D2X (the camera used to take the pictures as appears in the metadata) wasn't even available or released until AFTER the date the metadata recorded the pictures were "supposedly" taken. Check it out:

http://www.nikon.com/about/news/2006/0601_01.htm

(note, the camera came out in JUNE. The metadata is from FEBRUARY).

I always like to do my own 'investigative journalism'. But I agree with you about Beck, in fact, ALL the phony news pundits make my head ache :( except for Dennis Miller :)

I just want to get this off my chest. There is something inherently wrong with the Israeli government (or whoever made this decision) for dangling live bait into a shark tank.

Let the propaganda roll in, let the confusion begin!

Shalu Shalom Yerushalayim

LUIS said...

isn't collective punishment illegal by international law ?

http://www.youtube.com/user/RussiaToday#p/u/11/G81256_g7ks

traeh said...

Nazam,
I watched the video of Haneen Zuabi, the Palestinian Israeli member of parliament you refer to. She claims the Israelis fired on the ship before they boarded. But it appears she was below deck, so how would she know when the Israelis boarded? And we should keep in mind that this Palestinian member of the Israeli parliament has given verbal support to Iran's efforts to get a nuclear weapon. See http://fr.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1238423651844

As for the other video you linked to, Nazam, we hear a reporter from Al Jazeera claiming that a white flag is up -- I couldn't see a white flag in the video -- and saying that the Israelis are firing anyway. Later in the video, we see footage where a number of men, wearing masks and holding clubs or the like, are on the deck and are clearly looking to fight with the soldiers, including one scene where we see, if we slow down the tape, that a Palestinian man stabs an Israeli soldier more than once. The soldier does not start firing in response to the knife attack. Later we hear a ship announcer telling "brothers" to not resist the soldiers, to go to their cubbies and sit down. The announcer says it several times. So it seems obvious from your own video that some men on board were extremely belligerent and intent on violence.

Your evidence does not show what you wish to show, Nazam. The bottom line is that Hamas took over Gaza in a bloody coup in 2007, and consequently Israel and Egypt are maintaining a blockade on Gaza. Israel does so in part because Hamas in its charter calls for the destruction of Israel. The flotilla refused inspection, though all know that Hamas would like to import missiles to lob at Israel. Some of the men on board used metal poles and knives to attack the soldiers. But unfortunately for Mohammadans, Israel does not intend to end up like the Qurayza Jews, disarmed, and then executed en masse by Muhammad. See http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Muhammad/myths-mu-qurayza.htm

traeh said...

Osama Abdallah,
The U.S., despite its various flaws, is far more free than any Islamic nation. In the U.S., the First Amendment and the cultural heritage mean that people can say what they want to and they can worship as they want to, or be avowed and public atheists without fear. Muslim nations do not allow freedom of expression, though some are somewhat better than others; nor do they permit freedom of religion. In Bukhari, the most canonical of hadith collections, Muhammad said "If someone changes his Islamic religion, then kill him."

As for morality, serious Muslims cannot be moral, because morality means freely doing what is good. If you only do what is good because someone threatens you with a stick, how are you better than any animal? Is a horse moral because it turns left when you pull the metal bit in its mouth toward the left? Is it moral because it goes into a trot when you dig your heels into its sides? And serious Muslims very often are little more than that, men who don't realize they have been reduced to the level of beasts of burden. Muslims have been trained to respond to the carrot of a very sensual paradise and to the stick of hellfire. That is not morality. That is Pavlov's response. That is a just an involuntary salivary secretion in response to a stimulus.

Muslims have been made slaves of everything but the inner conscience: in addition to the thralldom of sensual paradises and terrifying hells, Muslims have Saudi religious police, and their analogues everywhere. Islamic "morality" is frequently nothing more than obedience to tyrants and submission to whoever is strongest and can compel obedience, regardless of truth or morality. Muhammad in particular, and the terror of the Qur'an, tyrannize over Muslims. It is surprising that Muslims not only give in, but are brainwashed into loving the tyrant pretending to be God.

True, freedom by itself is not morality. Free people can certainly be immoral. On the other hand, only free people have a chance to become moral. Morality is not possible for animals or slaves, except when those slaves do not think and act as slaves.

But Muslims conceive God as master, and themselves as his slaves. The Judeo-Christian tradition, by contrast, conceives human beings as children of God the Father, as people meant to imitate his creative substance (e.g., "be fruitful and multiply"), and as made in His image. Thus we recognize the divine spark of freedom within us, and the potential to develop it, and to be inspired with moral imagination, moral inspiration, and moral intuition, which are ever new. Muslims cannot be moral, except insofar as they disobey Islam and choose freedom.

The Fat Man said...

Nazam what a set up video lol. Yeah the Israeli's are firing on the ship and killing people. So what do all the people on the ship do, they stay on deck so they can get shot.

You know what a bunch of lies lol. It is so obvious oh and I love the pictures of the all the "WOUNDED" lol please.

The best part is the white flag. So if they put up a white flag that is the international sign for Surrender. The Israeli's board the ship under the white flag and what happens. They get attacked.

So therefore those on the ship VIOLATED international law of SURRENDER.

Nice try.

Now what does that tell you.

1. The video is obviously put together from different times of the event strung together as if it was one continueous record.

2. If the Israeli's are firing on the ship and killing people, what are PEOPLE DOING STANDING ON THE DECK?

3. The PICTURES OF THE DEAD and WOUNDED. Especially the guy that was "SHOT IN THE HEAD" funny I didn't see any head wound. But I will check again.

4. If the people on the boat put up a white flag, then they VIOLATED the terms of the white flag when they attacked the Israeli borders.

Either way even if the Israeli's had SUNK the ship they would of been legally justified since they were trying to break the blockade and they did not HEAVE TO for inspection.

Again nice try. But you still have not answer my question. WHAT INTERNATIONAL LAW DID THE Israel violated?

The Fat Man said...

Nazam said...

"In sum, now you have an Israeli MP admitting that the Israelis fired first!"

Ok and what law did they violate? The ships were breaking the law. Under "INTERNATIONAL LAW THEY COULD BE FIRED ON.

Funny the only dead are those that were on the ship who attacked the soldiers. If the Israeli's were firing on the ships how come nobody else died on the other ships? Only the ship that attacked the soldiers.

Again I state under International Law the SHIPS COULD OF BEEN SUNK. EVEN IF THEY WERE OFF THE COAST OF THE US. THEY WERE VIOLATING A BLOCKADE and had no intention of turning around or diverting to another port.

The Fat Man said...

Nazam

What joke, the video shows men wearing black face coverings holding some kind of rod or club. Yeah these were peaceful protesters.

Also the video shows the same sceen over and over again, and the same wounded man over and over again. Yeah this is a live broadcast lol.

Here is one more little fact for you. Before the Israeli interdiction. Some "PEACE ACTIVISTS" who were on the ship that people died TRANSFERED TO ANOTHER SHIP. Why did they transfer from the ship they were on to another ship in open ocean?

Could it be that it was known that this ship was going to offer up ARMED RESISTINCE to any LAWFUL boarding by Israeli soldiers?

Why did they leave the ship?

Lupus el Lobo said...

Nabeel
Stop jumping to conclusions. I didn't condone the attack. If I were to use your reasoning, I could say you are a person who condones stabbing and beating and firebombing. Then I could end that with a flourish and say "You Hypocrite!"

Would you think that's a fair assessment of you? A supporter of firebombers, stabbers, and beaters? If not, then don't assess others in that way. I pray your eyes will be opened.

Lupus replied:
You are most certainly at least indirectly condoning the attack by attempting to shift the guilt on the activists. Some of whom are your fellow christians!
I maintain that you are hyprocrite since you on the one hand claim that our religion is so peaceful and islam is so violent and here you are running a site that frequently downplays or justifies violence committed by what you would consider as the "in-group".

Nazam said...

Zack,

I agree with you that the clip from Fox news doesn't show what happen prior to the Israeli soldiers boarding the ship.

But here is clip recorded by someone on the ship prior to the soldiers invading the ship;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pn-l_JltCB4

And here is a clip of a MP from the Israeli parliament who was among those captured onboard of Gaza-bound ships.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1HEFXcRThA

She clearly admits that the Israeli army became attacking her ship first and that the government of Israel has confiscated all reporters film and true video evidence of what happened.

Nazam said...

Autopsies reveal 9 men on Gaza aid boat shot, 5 in head
By Ivan Watson and Talia Kayali

http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/meast/06/04/gaza.raid.autopsies/index.html?hpt=T2

Fernando said...

Hi Luis... you asked: «isn't collective punishment illegal by international law?»...

whate you mean by thate? do you reffer to the laws existing in muslims countries thate punish collectively non-muslims?

or are you speaking aboutte the consequences off Israel actting in accordance and in consequence off whate Hamas requiered from Israel? Remember? It's Hamas thate says itt is in permanent war withe Israel and thate this one will not end untill all jews will be driven into de sea... so: iff you want the blockade into Gaza to stop (as I do) you just have to ask Hamas to cease its war withe Israel and accept its existence...

Fernando said...

Hi Lupus el Lobo...

coulde you please take in account this my previous questions? I thought islam was always willing to express theire thoughts... or do you simply want to insult other people withoute justiffying your thoughts?

Lupus el Lobo saide: «an illegal attack on international waters by an armed elite force»...

why do you sai it was an illegal attack? please: developpe your answers arounde the following words used by you:

a) illegal;
b) attack;

then you saide: «the abuse many of the activists had to endure after they were arrested»...

why do you sai the activists endured abuses?

please: developpe your answers arounde the following words used by you:

a) abuse;
b) activists;

thanks

The Fat Man said...

Traeh

Your commit to Osama was great just great man.

I'm going to have to use some of that.

Nabeel Qureshi said...

Lupus el Lobo--

You are incorrect. I am not removing any blame from Israel. I'm not a zionist, I've never said anything pro-Israel (nor have I said anything anti-Israel). I don't know enough about these issues to conclude (honestly, I think the quest for power and land which leads to death is entirely against the spirit of God).

So I don't care about land issues, I care about souls. Therefore, I don't pick sides on this Israel/Palestine issue, I pray for the souls of the lost and I mourn the death of all who die.

Know the person you're accusing before accusing them. For me, the IDF is not an "in-group". They're just another police force.

-Nabeel

minoria said...

Hello Nabeel:
I am surprised you and Apollonius are not Zionists,it took me by surprise,but that is ok,there are alot of Christian Zionists around,at least 600 million,including me.

It is true that some of the actions of the Israeli government are not wise...letting in 400,000 Jewish settlers in 200 towns in the West Bank and East Jerusalem.That is alot of people.

RED HEIFER
I recently found out that there is a RED HEIFER in Israel,held by a Jewish group that is ready to rebuild the Third Temple.I was flabbergasted,how did they get it?They have it in a secret place.

SO?
For those who don't know a red cow is essential to build the Temple(NUMBERS 19).

traeh said...

Nazam, you said that a member of the Israeli parliament who was on board the ship

"...clearly admits that the Israeli army became attacking her ship first [before being attacked by the men with pipes and knives] and that the government of Israel has confiscated all reporters film and true video evidence of what happened." (my bolding)

You say that she "admits" the thing? As if she didn't want to put forward that view, but had to "admit" it reluctantly? That's not at all in the video. What deception from you, Nazam! That woman is a partisan and she clearly very much wanted to tell that version of events. Also recall that she is a Palestinian Israeli MP who has agreed that Iran should develop nuclear weapons! She didn't "admit" what she said about the Israeli attack. She pushed her story!

traeh said...

The Fat Man,
Feel free, and thanks.

CharlesMartel said...

@Minoria

The temple and its services were rendered obsolete by the coming of Christ and were destined for destruction just as Jesus predicted. No prophecy or directive is given in the New Testament regarding the re-erection or reinstitution of that which Christ put out of gear. More than this, the New Testament positively discourages a return to such a system, and not just for Gentiles but Jewish believers as well.

Jesus is the true temple, the true high priest, the true sacrifice, the only way sinful men, Jew or Gentile, may approach a holy God.

Amr said...

This is funny actually.
So Israelis board the ship Somali pirate style, and those on the ship are not allowed to defend themselves?
What were they supposed to do, sit back and be beat and/or shot?

I know individuals who were on this flotilla, before the Israelis boarded the ship, they were firing at anyone with cameras - not in the leg to immobilize them if they were dangerous, not in the arm, etc. - they were shooting them in the foreheads; one shot one kill.

Then they boarded in the manner which you saw in the video.

A small piece of information left out can make a huge difference.

I will be bold enough to say that the Israelis didn't do anything in that video in order to trick people. But information always subdues terrorist piratical fabrications of reality.

Lupus el Lobo said...

Nabeel said:
You are incorrect. I am not removing any blame from Israel. I'm not a zionist, I've never said anything pro-Israel (nor have I said anything anti-Israel). I don't know enough about these issues to conclude (honestly, I think the quest for power and land which leads to death is entirely against the spirit of God).

So I don't care about land issues, I care about souls. Therefore, I don't pick sides on this Israel/Palestine issue, I pray for the souls of the lost and I mourn the death of all who die.

Know the person you're accusing before accusing them. For me, the IDF is not an "in-group". They're just another police force.

Lupus replied:
First of all I implied that i'm a christian by writing our religion instead of your religion. I'm a muslim. That is beside the point.
Nabeel, on the basis of your reply I admit that I jumped to the wrong conclusions about you.
However, the way you frame things and the things you emphasize in your discourse reveals what kind of bias you have. If it is fairness and the well-being of your fellow human being's souls you're after, then maybe you should reconsider with whom you choose to associate yourself with.
Just my humble opinon.

Fernando said...

Nazam saide: «Autopsies reveal 9 men on Gaza aid boat shot, 5 in head»...

9? Then why did muslims arounde the world were crying out loud thate 19 were killed? were are the other 10? perhaps they, as the "humanitarians" saide, were thouwn overboard... If only one habe been killed thate is a tragidy thate I totally regreat, butt eben in this circunstances muslims start lying withe all the teeths they habe...

well... naval persons were being stabed in the backes, pursued into the corners and beated too dead bie people behaving as animals and you wanted them to satay put? iff the "humanitarians" habe behaved according to international laws (I know thate this onne has no value to muslims... and thate says a lot aboute muslims...) as they habe done in 3 off the 4 boats thate were in the flotilla, nothing would habe happended... in those circunstances the israelian naval people defended their liffes in front off a wave off people behaving as animals... whate did you expect? they would pick and chose and only shote att theire fingertips?

One must be totally sick not to want to see the truthe... disgusting...

Fernando said...

Amr said: «So Israelis board the ship Somali pirate style, and those on the ship are not allowed to defend themselves?»...

israeli did not board the boat "Somali pirate style": they did so after several warnings and in accordance withe international laws... in the 4 boat flotilla, thire was only problems in one... in 3 off them the people on board behaved as the international law requieres and no problem occur... so: the responsability off the deads (and I'm sorrow for, and regreat, every one off them) is on the hand off those who did not act in accordance off international laws...

Amr said: «What were they supposed to do, sit back and be beat and/or shot?»... they were supposed to act in accordance withe international law as 3 other ships did... on those 3 other ships no one was beaten or shot... the violence started at the hand off those supposed "humanitarians"

Amr said: «I know individuals who were on this flotilla, before the Israelis boarded the ship, they were firing at anyone with cameras - not in the leg to immobilize them if they were dangerous, not in the arm, etc. - they were shooting them in the foreheads; one shot one kill»...

no Amr... you're lying... no one repported thate publiquely... more: eben the Alzajeera journalist admited no one fired previous to the descend onto the boats... more: why were violence only on one boat... and do remeber: I'm accounted withe Rita Lee, an activist on board off thate boat, and she told thate no guns were shoot before the descend onto board... iff you, as muslims normaly do, need to lie to defend your position, thate teels a lot about whate you are and whate you believe...

whu do muslims always lye?

hugh watt said...

CharlesMartel:

You're kind of right in what you say but, read about the re-institution of the sacrificial system during the Millennium. Ezekiel 40-48:35.

Nabeel:

The land issue is pivotal! Why do you think Satan has been trying to force the Jews out for so long? Briefly: Genesis 12

"1 The Lord had said to Abram, "Leave your country and your people. Leave your father's family. Go to the land I will show you.
2 "I will make you into a great nation.
I will bless you.
I will make your name great.
You will be a blessing to others.
3 I will bless those who bless you.
I will put a curse on anyone who calls down a curse on you.
All nations on earth
will be blessed because of you."


Genesis 13:"14 The Lord spoke to Abram after Lot had left him. He said, "Look up from where you are. Look north and south. Look east and west. 15 I will give you all of the land that you see. I will give it to you and your children after you forever.
16 "I will make your children like the dust of the earth. Can dust be counted? If it can, then your children can be counted. 17 Go. Walk through the land. See how long and wide it is. I am giving it to you."


Genesis 17:4 "As for me, this is my covenant with you. You will be the father of many nations.
5 "You will not be called Abram anymore. Your name will be Abraham, because I have made you a father of many nations. 6 I will give you many children. Nations will come from you. And kings will come from you.
7 "I will make my covenant with you. It will last forever. It will be between me and you and your children after you for all time to come. I will be your God. And I will be the God of all of your family after you.
8 "You are now living in Canaan as an outsider. But I will give you the whole land of Canaan. You will own it forever. So will your children after you. And I will be their God."


Satan wants to prove God's Word false. Now what would happen if the Land became a nothing issue, where would Jesus come back to?

Zechariah "14: 4 On that day he will stand on the Mount of Olives. It's east of Jerusalem. It will be split in two from east to west. Half of the mountain will move north. The other half will move south. A large valley will be formed."

Acts "1: 6 When the apostles met together, they asked Jesus a question. "Lord," they said, "are you going to give the kingdom back to Israel now?"
7 He said to them, "You should not be concerned about times or dates. The Father has set them by his own authority. 8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you. Then you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem. You will be my witnesses in all Judea and Samaria. And you will be my witnesses from one end of the earth to the other."
9 After Jesus said this, he was taken up to heaven. They watched until a cloud hid him from their sight.
10 While he was going up, they kept on looking at the sky. Suddenly two men dressed in white clothing stood beside them. 11 "Men of Galilee," they said, "why do you stand here looking at the sky? Jesus has been taken away from you into heaven. But he will come back in the same way you saw him go."
Matthias Is Chosen to Take the Place of Judas
12 The apostles returned to Jerusalem from the Mount of Olives. It is almost a mile from the city."


Satan is using Islam et al to push Israel out of the Holy Land. Madmoud Imaginethat is just the latest puppet-on-a-string along with all the other anti-semites being used to destroy Israel.

Fernando said...

Hi Lupus el Lobo... still nott wanting to explainne your words? are you affraid thate, being analitical withe them, those will crumble?

here are my requestes again:

Lupus el Lobo saide: «an illegal attack on international waters by an armed elite force»...

why do you sai it was an illegal attack? please: developpe your answers arounde the following words used by you:

a) illegal;
b) attack;

then you saide: «the abuse many of the activists had to endure after they were arrested»...

why do you sai the activists endured abuses?

please: developpe your answers arounde the following words used by you:

a) abuse;
b) activists;

thanks

hugh watt said...

Amr said:

"This is funny actually.
So Israelis board the ship Somali pirate style, and those on the ship are not allowed to defend themselves?
What were they supposed to do, sit back and be beat and/or shot?"


Firstly, people lost their lives, nothing funny about that!
The Israelis had a valid reason for being there, Somali pirates do not.
Why would those on the ship need to try to "defend themselves," unless they were looking for a fight in the first place?
If a police officer says, 'Stop, or i'll shoot,' what would you do?

"A small piece of information left out can make a huge difference.

I will be bold enough to say that the Israelis didn't do anything in that video in order to trick people. But information always subdues terrorist piratical fabrications of reality."


You've destroyed your own argument here Amr!

Amr said...

Hello.

Hugh, I didn't say that the dead people being killed is funny. I'm commenting at the reaction of people here.

As for them boarding ships that were in international waters, that is a proclamation of war, and piracy.

Funny thing is that those ships were registered in the States, and thus an attack on them would be an attack on the states, or terrorism, but no comment from the State Department on that.

As for fernando accusing me of lying when I said that people were shot in the forehead, then I won't accuse him of being anything, but I will say that he didn't research enough.

Read here:
http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/meast/06/04/gaza.raid.autopsies/index.html?hpt=T1


"If a police officer says, 'Stop, or i'll shoot,' what would you do?"

I would stop, as I have legal Islamic texts which tell me to obey the law as long as it is not in contradiction of Islam (this point is summarized, and I don't feel like going into detail lol).

That is because they have jurisdiction.

Now, if I am overseas, where a US police officer has no right to stop me, and he does, I wouldn't stop. If he raised his gun to me I would defend myself, like any normal human would.

minoria said...

Hello Traeh:

You said about the Arab-Israeli MP on board:

"You say that she "admits" the thing? As if she didn't want to put forward that view, but had to "admit" it reluctantly? That's not at all in the video. What deception from you, Nazam! That woman is a partisan and she clearly very much wanted to tell that version of events. Also recall that she is a Palestinian Israeli MP who has agreed that Iran should develop nuclear weapons! She didn't "admit" what she said about the Israeli attack. She pushed her story!"

I am debating several Muslims who SUPPORT Hamas in a Spanish-language forum and I know the type.They fabricate excuses and stories and the terrorists are never evil,the Muslims always the victims.They live in FANTASY world(Al-Qaida is a US invention,suicide attempts by Hamas are really by Mossad,the Jews and Nazis were secretly working together,proof to the contrary are Western lies).It's absurd,I have never seen such craziness.

That is why I don't believe her.

Nabeel Qureshi said...

Lupus el Lobo --

Your advice is duly noted and appreciated.

Cheers,
-Nabeel

The Fat Man said...

Amr

Can you tell me on what ship that did not resist that deaths occurred?

The Fat Man said...

Amr said...
"This is funny actually.
So Israelis board the ship Somali pirate style,"

Amr really I didn't know that Somali pirates had black hawk helicopters to Fast rope down from? Can you give us a instance were Muslim Somali pirates used a helicopter to board a ship.

Also what flag were the Muslim Somali pirates flying under?

Oh and what blockade were the Muslim Somali pirates protecting?

So where is the similarities to Muslim Somali pirates?

Fernando said...

Hi Amr... you saide: «As for fernando accusing me of lying when I said that people were shot in the forehead»...

can you tell us all, withe my words, were I saide so? Thanks...

just take notice off this: you did not only saide thate the israelis shoot people on the head (I granted tahte), butt you rather saide thate: «before the Israelis boarded the ship, they were firing at anyone with cameras (...) they were shooting them in the foreheads; one shot one kill»...

I repeat: this is a lie: isarelis did not fire anyone withe cameras in the head before they boarded teh boat... this is a lyie and I repeat it so: you are lying withe all your teaths...

lyieng is disgusting here, there, everywhere... whate does thate say off you and the ideology you follow?

Fernando said...

Amr saide: «I would stop, as I have legal islamic texts which tell me to obey the law as long as it is not in contradiction of islam»...

so: you muslims only are obediente to laws unless they are not against islam... in other words: unless the laws follow islam's ideology (or at least are in accordance to it) you, followers off muhammad, feel free to dispise those laws... ok... thate not only explain whate happended withe this tragedy provocated by those supposed "humanitarians", butt also why muslims in the West are nott accepting to integrate in the societies thate are accepting them...

Amr also saide: «Now, if I am overseas, where a US police officer has no right to stop me, and he does, I wouldn't stop. If he raised his gun to me I would defend myself, like any normal human would»...

another false analogy... Amr: iff you can't stick withe the truthe off the events and habe to twist the compariesons to other reallity to habe reason your poistion ha salready crumbled...

1) Isarel created a maritime blockade due to the fact Hams says it is in permanent war witeh Israel;

2) according to international law (and I know thate according to you you muslims do not accept this one iff it is agains your will) any ship, IN INTERNATIONAL WATERS, can be boarded by those imposing the blockade iff thate ship has manifestated intentions to break the blockade... here's this text presented by beloved brother The Fat Man ounce again

"SECTION V: NEUTRAL MERCHANT VESSELS AND CIVIL AIRCRAFT. Neutral merchant vessels 67. Merchant vessels flying the flag of neutral States may not be attacked unless they: (a) are believed on reasonable grounds to be carrying contraband or breaching a blockade, and after prior warning they intentionally and clearly refuse to stop, or intentionally and clearly resist visit, search or capture»...

Amr: your positions are a bunch off lies...

minoria said...

Reading other blogs the situation is this: Obama(who doesn't want to show his original birth certificate,something very ridiculous) is indifferent to Israel.

He is losing POPULARITY after 1 year of achieving NOTHING.

SOON will be elctions in the US and it seems the Democrats might LOSE the majority in Congress.He will have to be more pro-Israel.

WAR
The Muslim terrorists know NOW is their best chance to start a WAR,an INCIDENT,to provoke a war with Israel to destroy it.To drag various Muslim nations to fight Israel like in 1967.

It sounds crazy but when like me you have to read the sincere "logic" of pro-terrorist Muslims (no pretending here for Westerners)you see it is their OBSESSION...destroy Israel,Israel is a Nazi state,apartheid,a vampire,evil incarnate.

Confident Christianity said...

Osama -
//Absolutely None! :-)//

So how do you know that the USA is doing things incorrectly if there is no good standard with which to compare our civil law? What is the standard, Osama?

I am also perplexed that you take advantage of the USA's freedom of speech to denigrate the country's civil freedoms while failing to realize the realistic inability of people to speak out against current governing systems that are ruled with Islamic theology (or Islamic religion-states). Do you have an argument for why civil law and freedom of speech are bankrupt other than that people will abuse them? It is obvious that, due to temptation, some of mankind will turn to gross immorality when presented with freedom. Unless you are denying this philosophical idea, it appears your argument is against the freedom of mankind (with some exception in freedoms for the pursuit of life, liberty, and happiness as is necessary in governance)?

//But I find it quite ridiculous for the nations that ***UPHOLD*** pornography, open lewdness, open nakedness in beaches and elsewhere, alcohol, and many other bad things even among their MOST CONSERVATIVE CHRISTIANS, to consider themselves the measuring sticks and standard for morality, ethics and values.//

#1 - Please cite the laws for this nation that *uphold* these specific practices: pornography, open lewdness, open nakedness in beaches and elsewhere, alcohol. If you are discussing certain civil rights and freedoms, you need to make an argument against those particular laws and why freedom in those particular laws is unacceptable. (We are not just looking at the immoral outworking of the laws by some people...remember, other people don't do these things with their freedoms. But if you completely take away the freedom,such as freedom of speech, then what does that entail for those who were practicing a moral outworking of their freedoms?)

As far as alcohol goes, if it is inherently bad, why is it present in Islamic Paradise? Anthony Rogers touched on this in his post. I want to know the Qur'anic address of why alcohol is bad in this life and good in the afterlife. Both parts are important in understanding this doctrine.

#2 - Where did anyone here say the USA considers itself the measuring stick? I may have missed that one.

#3 - "Even the most conservative Christians": Do you realize that by using this sort of fallacious argumentation (specifically a sweeping generalization) others could use the same problematic logic to number you amongst those professing Islam who commit the most atrocious of actions?

I know that some conservative Christians have fallen into temptation (as I'm sure even some of the most conservative Muslims have as well...unless you are saying there are Muslims who believe they can live a perfect life). However, to blow this fact up into a hyperbolic statement as above is not good argumentation. Plus, it is diminishes the impact of the struggle with temptation which is very real for mankind: Muslim or Christian. This logic also diminishes mankind's need for God (whether you argue from Muslim theology or Christian theology). Because if we do not truly struggle with temptation, then we don't need God's help.

#4 - America is a republic founded on democratic philosophy with civil law. It is not a religion-state.
If you're going to attack an ideology or a government, at least give a nod to the basics of their governing philosophy. It seems you should be arguing here for why a religion-state (particularly that of Islam) would be better than a republic with separation of church and state.

Thanks!

Osama Abdallah said...

PART I

The following are Mary Jo Sharp's comments/responses and my responses to them. MY RESPONSES ARE IN BOLD, BELOW:


"Osama -
//Absolutely None! :-)//

So how do you know that the USA is doing things incorrectly if there is no good standard with which to compare our civil law? What is the standard, Osama?"

This whole earth is nothing. In fact, life on earth is called the life of "DUNIA". Dunia in Arabic is derived from DANEEA' and it means:

1- Low.
2- Despicable.
3- Not worthy.

Allah Almighty also Said that even if the Angels themselves were to live on earth, they would need AN ANGEL-PROPHET TO BE SENT TO THEM:

‏17:95 قل لو كان في الارض ملائكة يمشون مطمئنين لنزلنا عليهم من السماء ملكا رسولا

[017:095] Say, "If there were settled, on earth, angels walking about in peace and quiet, We should certainly have sent them down from the heavens an angel for an apostle."

***** So earth is a despicable place, in general. It is low, unworthy and was put for us as a punishment for us, and A PLACE OF WHERE WE WOULD BE AWAY FROM GOD ALMIGHTY, as also a form of punishment for us.


"I am also perplexed that you take advantage of the USA's freedom of speech to denigrate the country's civil freedoms while failing to realize the realistic inability of people to speak out against current governing systems that are ruled with Islamic theology (or Islamic religion-states). Do you have an argument for why civil law and freedom of speech are bankrupt other than that people will abuse them?"

America has become a great satan! America is ruled by evil. Yes, the freedom of speech is something good to have, but this personal lugxury is zero to me when this great satan supports evil throughout the world. I am not looking at it from a personal perspective. I am rather looking at it from 30,000 feet above the ground. If you do that, then you'll get my point. AFTER THE 9/11 CONSIPIRACY THAT CAUSED FOR 1.5 MILLION INNOCENT AFGHANIS AND IRAQIES TO DIE from it, I have lost all loyalty and allegence to the USA. I am trying to fight the evil of this country by converting its citizens to Islam. This is the only way that we can defeat the satan that is ruling America. I am fully aware that many of the American people are nice, humble and very generous. But like I said, if you look at it from 30,000 feet above the ground, then you'll get my point.

AS TO THE ISLAMIC GOVERNMENTS, TRUE ONES WOULD NOT BE GOVERNMENTS OF CONSPIRACIES AND LIES, NOR OPPRESSIONS AND DICTATORSHIPS. They would actually be democtratice ones:

‏42:38 والذين استجابوا لربهم واقاموا الصلاة وامرهم شورى بينهم ومما رزقناهم ينفقون

[042:038] Those who hearken to their Lord, and establish regular Prayer; who (conduct) their affairs by mutual Consultation; who spend out of what We bestow on them for Sustenance;

And they would lead people to Salvation, which is what really matters in the end.

Continuing to PART II.....

Osama Abdallah said...

"#2 - Where did anyone here say the USA considers itself the measuring stick? I may have missed that one."

Nabeel gave the example that America did it before, suggesting that it is ok that Israel have done it, since the USA-god did it. I simply flushed his god down the toilet for him. I love how he cried and said that Osama called America a "toilet dump". Oh really Nabeel? I guess I have now upsetted your lords and masters, haven't I?

"#3 - "Even the most conservative Christians": Do you realize that by using this sort of fallacious argumentation (specifically a sweeping generalization) others could use the same problematic logic to number you amongst those professing Islam who commit the most atrocious of actions?"

In perfect Islam, the world is at complete Peace and Submission to the ONE TRUE AND LIVING GOD ALMIGHTY OF THE UNIVERSE. I don't care what people label me. Salvation is what I care about, and I am 100% convinced that Islam is indeed the Divine Truth of Allah Almighty. If you see it from my perspective, then you'll, again, see my point.

"I know that some conservative Christians have fallen into temptation (as I'm sure even some of the most conservative Muslims have as well...unless you are saying there are Muslims who believe they can live a perfect life). However, to blow this fact up into a hyperbolic statement as above is not good argumentation. Plus, it is diminishes the impact of the struggle with temptation which is very real for mankind: Muslim or Christian. This logic also diminishes mankind's need for God (whether you argue from Muslim theology or Christian theology). Because if we do not truly struggle with temptation, then we don't need God's help."

People fall into temptation, Mrs. Mary Jo Sharp. But when you have a system that promotes temptations, then Curse will be upon those who support this system:

‏85:10 ان الذين فتنوا المؤمنين والمؤمنات ثم لم يتوبوا فلهم عذاب جهنم ولهم عذاب الحريق

[085:010] Verily, those who put into trial the believing men and believing women, and then do not turn in repentance, (to Allah), will have the torment of Hell, and they will have the punishment of the burning Fire.


"#4 - America is a republic founded on democratic philosophy with civil law. It is not a religion-state.
If you're going to attack an ideology or a government, at least give a nod to the basics of their governing philosophy. It seems you should be arguing here for why a religion-state (particularly that of Islam) would be better than a republic with separation of church and state.

Thanks!"

America, now, is a republic that is ruled and owned by the zionists. It is increasingly becoming the great satan. This has to be combated through Islam. America's freedom with Islam's Morality would make a perfect society in my estimation. Otherwise, American will always remain the land of monopoly, lies, thievery, conspiracy and pornography. That is why you are ruled by crooks, thieves and war-mongering zionists, today.

May Allah Almighty Lead you to Islam, Mrs. Mary Jo Sharp! Ameen.

Osama Abdallah
www.answering-christianity.com

Osama Abdallah said...

PART II

"It is obvious that, due to temptation, some of mankind will turn to gross immorality when presented with freedom. Unless you are denying this philosophical idea, it appears your argument is against the freedom of mankind (with some exception in freedoms for the pursuit of life, liberty, and happiness as is necessary in governance)?"

Do you honestly trust your children to be raised in this society? The level of immorality that this country has gone down to is at a point of no return. SO IN THE END, THIS PHILOSOPHY AND IDEOLOGY is leading to the Ultimate Destruction. As Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, Said:

"The anti-Christ's heaven will lead to the Doom of Hell, and the Hell of the anti-christ will lead to the Bliss of Heaven."

From this, I would rather be condemned, mocked, herrassed, and segregated by the america's satan, than to be BLESSED BY IT.

********TAKE THIS FROM ME, MARY JO:

********THE BLESSING OF AMERICA TO ANYONE MAKES HIM A SUSPECT! When America blesses someone, you can bet your bottom dollar that that someone is a rotten bastard!


"//But I find it quite ridiculous for the nations that ***UPHOLD*** pornography, open lewdness, open nakedness in beaches and elsewhere, alcohol, and many other bad things even among their MOST CONSERVATIVE CHRISTIANS, to consider themselves the measuring sticks and standard for morality, ethics and values.//

#1 - Please cite the laws for this nation that *uphold* these specific practices: pornography, open lewdness, open nakedness in beaches and elsewhere, alcohol. If you are discussing certain civil rights and freedoms, you need to make an argument against those particular laws and why freedom in those particular laws is unacceptable. (We are not just looking at the immoral outworking of the laws by some people...remember, other people don't do these things with their freedoms. But if you completely take away the freedom,such as freedom of speech, then what does that entail for those who were practicing a moral outworking of their freedoms?)"

It's enough for me to find it in my face on TV and on the internet. Even among your conservative christians, we have GIRLS GONE WILD IN LOUISIANA'S ANNUAL MARDI GRASS. Plus, when I see the christian societies world-wide, - again from 30,000 feet above the ground, - I see rotten and filthy societies of pornography, open lewdness, open nakedness in beaches, alcohol, drugs, and on and on and on.

"As far as alcohol goes, if it is inherently bad, why is it present in Islamic Paradise? Anthony Rogers touched on this in his post. I want to know the Qur'anic address of why alcohol is bad in this life and good in the afterlife. Both parts are important in understanding this doctrine."

The Prophet of Islam made it abundantly clear that the Bliss of Heaven is Good, while much of earth's bliss is evil. He also used alcohol as an example, and stated clearly that the alcohol of Heaven is not harmful, but rather Good, while the alcohol of earth is evil and harmful. That is why Allah Almighty in the Glorious Quran not only forbade alcohol, but HE ALSO COMMANDED THE MUSLIMS STAY AS FAR AWAY AS POSSIBLE FROM THE PLACES THAT HAVE IT:

‏5:90 ياايها الذين امنوا انما الخمر والميسر والانصاب والازلام رجس من عمل الشيطان فاجتنبوه لعلكم تفلحون

[005:090] O ye who believe! Intoxicants and gambling, (dedication of) stones, and (divination by) arrows, are an abomination,- of Satan's handwork: eschew such (abomination), that ye may prosper.

Continuing with Part III

The Fat Man said...

Amr said...

"As for them boarding ships that were in international waters, that is a proclamation of war, and piracy."

Actually no that is not a act of piracy. Priacy is defined as acts of individules not acts of a state. The Israeli's were flying under their flag, pirates do not fly under any flag, unless you count the Jolly Roger.

An act of war? No, because the ships were not Military Ships, they were not acting under the direction of any government. The ships were not sunk, they were searched and then released. The "Passengers" (well those that survived because they did not "RESIST") were also released.

Amr then said...

"Funny thing is that those ships were registered in the States, and thus an attack on them would be an attack on the states, or terrorism, but no comment from the State Department on that."

Again NOOOOOOOOO.

The United States Government respects, supports, and honors the blockade. If the ships would of been registered in the US then the US would of either intercepted them as soon as it was known they planned to violate the blockade, or after it was said and done the Capitan and Crew could of lost their merchant licences and or been arrested, fined and imprisoned.

Amr then said....

"As for fernando accusing me of lying when I said that people were shot in the forehead, then I won't accuse him of being anything, but I will say that he didn't research enough."

Amr please tell me why it matters to you if they were shot in the forhead, in the head, or anywhere else in their bodies. Still doesn't change the fact that they are dead.

So why you keep brining up that 5 of them were shot in the head?

The Fat Man said...

Confident Christianity said...


#4 - America is a republic founded on democratic philosophy with civil law. It is not a religion-state.
If you're going to attack an ideology or a government, at least give a nod to the basics of their governing philosophy. It seems you should be arguing here for why a religion-state (particularly that of Islam) would be better than a republic with separation of church and state.

Yeahh ditto that. Osama lets go through the beauty of Sharia law. What flavor of Sharia law do you want?

Zack_Tiang said...

Osama.... in all 3 of your posts... you barely answered any of Ms. Mary Jo's questions/arguments... I dare say you didn't at all...

Osama said...
"***** So earth is a despicable place, in general. It is low, unworthy and was put for us as a punishment for us, and A PLACE OF WHERE WE WOULD BE AWAY FROM GOD ALMIGHTY, as also a form of punishment for us."

So... you mean... indirectly.. that we were created outside of this 'dunia' and then we sinned and were born into this 'dunia' as a form of punishment?
I thought Islam teaches that we were born sinless? (before being touched by Satan, hence why baby cries)

"AS TO THE ISLAMIC GOVERNMENTS, TRUE ONES WOULD NOT BE GOVERNMENTS OF CONSPIRACIES AND LIES, NOR OPPRESSIONS AND DICTATORSHIPS. They would actually be democtratice ones:

[042:038] Those who hearken to their Lord, and establish regular Prayer; who (conduct) their affairs by mutual Consultation; who spend out of what We bestow on them for Sustenance;

And they would lead people to Salvation, which is what really matters in the end.
"

Please name us a 'true Islamic government' that ever existed. We would love to know of one that actually ruled democratically...
and plus, your verse doesn't even mentions of anything resembling democracy... So I don't see how it supports democracy.

"**THE BLESSING OF AMERICA TO ANYONE MAKES HIM A SUSPECT! When America blesses someone, you can bet your bottom dollar that that someone is a rotten bastard!"

Does this mean anything good that happens in America is actually an evil malevolent curse in disguise?
if say, Ms Mary Jo's children were raised up in America, in a private/public sch, and grown up to be fine God-fearing adult... that'd be consider a great blessing (I'd say by God's grace, but ignore that for now)... BUT it happened in America... so it's actually a curse by Satan who 'rules America'??
A fallacious statement I find...

"Plus, when I see the christian societies world-wide, - again from 30,000 feet above the ground, - I see rotten and filthy societies of pornography, open lewdness, open nakedness in beaches, alcohol, drugs, and on and on and on."

Please define 'Christian societies' based on Jesus's definition of what is Christian.
Once you do, I doubt you can qualify such places as Christian in the first place.

Plus your statement about 'finding in my face on tv and internet' does not answer Ms Mary Jo's request for "LAWS in America that upholds such practices".

Zack_Tiang said...

"005:090] O ye who believe! Intoxicants and gambling, (dedication of) stones, and (divination by) arrows, are an abomination,- of Satan's handwork: eschew such (abomination), that ye may prosper."

Nope, doesn't answer Ms Mary Jo's question. This verse only shows all alcohol (and drugs) are Satan's handwork (notice it doesn't mentioned anything about earth in that statement, so should be taken as all alcohol in general).
So what's Satan's handwork doing in Heaven?

I just noticed something strange about this verse.
"(dedication of) stones"
I do recall of some stone.... in some holy place... which some religious people kiss... or pray towards too from all over the world..
I wonder which poor religion has such dedication to this stone... Shame on them.

"I love how he cried and said that Osama called America a "toilet dump". Oh really Nabeel? I guess I have now upsetted your lords and masters, haven't I?"

I wouldn't say 'he cried'... I'd think that was not at all the first thing in Nabeel's mind when you said that.
BUT, how about if he or anyone had called Mecca a garbage dump? Wouldn't you have 'cried' too?
Plus... if I'm not mistaken, other posts pointed out you're living in this 'toilet dump' too. So what are you doing living in a 'toilet dump'?
Please stop shooting yourself in the foot... as much as I enjoy seeing Muslims do that continuously when arguing against Christians in general.

"In perfect Islam, the world is at complete Peace and Submission to the ONE TRUE AND LIVING GOD ALMIGHTY OF THE UNIVERSE."

Please explain to us how 'perfect Islam' looks like... using a nation with a government as example. Pls.k.thx.

The Berean Search said...

I do not believe Osama Abdallah understands the distinction between faith and political systems. I suspect this issues stems from the fact that the core of Islam is a political system.

It's fascinating to watch Muslims tell us "Western governments are currupt! Now you should convert to Islam and implement Shari'a". The problem is, every system that includes sinners as an integral part of it's construct will always be corrupt. This goes for Shari'a and the Caliphate so many Muslims want too. You can't have a system run by humans that isn't fallible, corrupt and sinful.

This is why Islamism is a false Utopian pipe-dream just like all the all the other "-isms".

Zack_Tiang said...

"But when you have a system that promotes temptations, then Curse will be upon those who support this system"

I recall numerous occasions in Indonesia where Muslims attacked Christians.. and many times involved them gang-raping the Christian girls. And all this cause Muhammad taught them to do so in the Quran.
So.. Muhammad provides a system of temptation (rape slaves or unbelievers) and are supported by the Muslims... Oh dear...

"America, now, is a republic that is ruled and owned by the zionists. .. This has to be combated through Islam. America's freedom with Islam's Morality would make a perfect society in my estimation."

I don't know all this 'Zionists' stuffs that people keep spewing against Jews...
But I cannot see how America's freedom can be matched with Islam's morality.
How is the level of morality for Islamic states/nations so far? Indonesia? Iraq before/after Saddam?

it's like trying to mix water with oil... it just doesn't mix.
The very idea of Islam is against freedom... SUBMISSION! SUBMIT!!

Zack_Tiang said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
John Lollard said...

Osama,

In reading through your posts, I found a lot that I actually agreed with. I am myself concerned about the future of America, knowing that God works judgment on nations that do not uphold righteousness. I don't agree with a lot of your conclusions, but neither do I think your "view from 30,000 feet" is too far off the mark, either.

What I really wanted to comment on, my friend, is this:

<>

I am not sure what weight you will give to the classical Jewish and Christian understanding of the enemy (satan), but classically Jews and Christians have understood the enemy to be filled with this very same spirit of contempt for the created world and humankind. I do not know if this is an actual theological reading from the Quran or if this is something you may have read somewhere or developed yourself, but it is very disturbing to me that this is allegedly Islamic thought.

In fact, is this not the same attitude Eblis takes in the Quran? I confess ignorance on the Quranic understanding of Eblis, but it seems as though the Quran also acknowledges the devil as holding this position.

The reason why I find all of this so disturbing is because the nature of Islam, its theology of God and salvation and of Jesus and of righteousness and the nature of the revelation the prophet received, all indicate to me that it might be demonic. Now, I know that many Christians go around claiming everything in the world is demonic, but I don't usually do this. It is the special position of what Islam says about Christianity that draws me to this conclusion.

When you then go forward to imply that Islam holds to a view of man that Christians believe the enemy holds, the red flags are REALLY up. Or in your debate with David when you described Allah as arrogant and mankind as his slaves, you need to understand that if there WAS a religion influenced by demonic powers, that is exactly what I would expect this religion to teach, and here is Islam teaching it.

My friend, I hope I did not insult you personally. I know that you are very dedicated to Islam and work very hard to defend it. I think you are an admirable person, if not kind of eccentric, I just find some of the things you believe and profess to be... alarming.

I do not know what Allah thinks, but YHVH, the God who made mankind, made us out of love, made the earth as very good and gave it to us as a blessing, made us in His image of objects of His affection. I hope that same YHVH will touch your heart and you will know his love, that is not boastful or proud, that makes itself nothing for the other.

Love in Christ,
JL

John Lollard said...

not sure what happened there, but the brackets are supposed to be Osama's quote about the earth being despised and lowly.

hugh watt said...

S:91:7

"And [by] the soul and He who proportioned it

Tafsir al-Jalalayn
and [by] the soul, that is to say, [by] all souls, and the One Who proportioned it, in its created form (mā in all three instances relates to the verbal action, or functions as man, ‘the one who’),

S:91:8

And inspired it [with discernment of] its wickedness and its righteousness,
Tafsir al-Jalalayn
and inspired to discern its vices and piety, He pointed out to it the path of good and that of evil (the placing of taqwā, ‘piety’, second takes into account the [rhyme] endings of the verses; the response to the oath is [the following:])"

Dawood translates this; "And inspired it with wickedness and piety."

So if a country is full of wickedness shouldn't Osama be blaming Allah for its gross immorality?

How about that perfect brothel in Jannah so many 'martyrs' are looking forward to? Where's the righteousness in that! The very things Islam promises as a reward for 'martyrs' is the very thing i hear unbelievers longing for here, and in their ideal paradise! Tell you anything?

Confident Christianity said...

Osama:

I have two last questions for now:

What do you have to say about all the problems in countries that are majority Muslim or use the Quran as their constitution or use Sharia courts for legislation? Sex-slavery, drug addiction, rape, alcoholism, extreme poverty, famine, murder, etc. Do you view these as made-up conspiracy theories by the West to slight those countries or do you see them as real problems?

Thanks,
MJ

Osama Abdallah said...

"Osama:

I have two last questions for now:

What do you have to say about all the problems in countries that are majority Muslim or use the Quran as their constitution or use Sharia courts for legislation? Sex-slavery, drug addiction, rape, alcoholism, extreme poverty, famine, murder, etc. Do you view these as made-up conspiracy theories by the West to slight those countries or do you see them as real problems?

Thanks,
MJ"

Mrs. Mary Jo Sharp,

According to Islam, in the End of Days, we will be weak, divided and corrupt. In fact, the Prophet, peace be upon him, Said that during those days:

"The nations will gather against us (or gang up on us) as the predators feast on their prey. They asked him, is it due to lack of numbers, O Messenger of Allah? And the Prophet responded by saying that our number will be great, as much as the drops of water in a river, but our strength will be as strong as the foam that is floating on its surface."


The problem with the Muslim world, today, is that they are too divided and are ruled by corrupt dictators. Yes, the courts use the Sharia for civil cases and disputes, but the government is 100% non-Islamic. The Muslims got divided between the USA and the Soviet Union during the cold war days. A country was either communist, socialist-maxist, or a follower of the USA. Plus, before that, we were colonized by the French and British, and by the Turks before them. In any case, the country would be ruled by a ruthless dictator and a military regime. This made it much easier for the modern-day colonizers to control these countries, because the rule and control of the country is limted to those in power, and hence, it is much easier to work with them. ******The idea is to keep the wealth of the country out of the country, in the colonizer's Financial Institutions, and in return to keep that dictator and military regime in power. I heard on FOX News during the early days of 9/11 that the Arab Gulf States have close to 1 Trillion US-Dollars invested in the USA! To be exact, the number was in the high 800s billions. Now imagine how prosperous these countries would've been if that money was in those countries, instead. Imagine the technolgies, education and advanced life they would be enjoying today. But this is the price that the nations must pay in order for the rotten dictators that rule them to remain in power with the blessings of the colonizers. That is why I told you earlier that the blessings of the USA to anyone makes him a suspect.

In perfect Islam, which Christ, peace be upon him, will bring back, none of the corruptions that you mentioned and I elaborated on will exist on earth. The World will be a One State that rules all! And that State will be a State that Worships and Glorifies Allah Almighty and is 100% ruled by His Divine Rules (The Sharia Law as called in Arabic).

I hope this helps.

Best regards,
Osama Abdallah
www.answering-christianity.com

Zack_Tiang said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Allah*the*greatest* said...

y do u have an arabic name?

Anthony Rogers said...

I don't.

ChristianLawUSA said...

Forgiveness
A letter written to a man on death row by the Father of the man whom the man on death row had killed:
You are probably surprised that I, of all people, am writing a letter to you, but I ask you to read it in its entirety and consider its request seriously. As the Father of the man whom you took part in murdering, I have something very important to say to you.
I forgive you. With all my heart, I forgive you. I realize it may be hard for you to believe, but I really do. At your trial, when you confessed to your part in the events that cost my Son his life and asked for my forgiveness, I immediately granted you that forgiving love from my heart. I can only hope you believe me and will accept my forgiveness.
But this is not all I have to say to you. I want to make you an offer -- I want you to become my adopted child. You see, my Son who died was my only child, and I now want to share my life with you and leave my riches to you. This may not make sense to you or anyone else, but I believe you are worth the offer. I have arranged matters so that if you will receive my offer of forgiveness, not only will you be pardoned for your crime, but you also will be set free from your imprisonment, and your sentence of death will be dismissed. At that point, you will become my adopted child and heir to all my riches.
I realize this is a risky offer for me to make to you -- you might be tempted to reject my offer completely -- but I make it to you without reservation.
Also, I realize it may seem foolish to make such an offer to one who cost my Son his life, but I now have a great love and an unchangeable forgiveness in my heart for you.
Finally, you may be concerned that once you accept my offer you may do something to cause you to be denied your rights as an heir to my wealth. Nothing could be further from the truth. If I can forgive you for your part in my Son's death, I can forgive you for anything. I know you never will be perfect, but you do not have to be perfect to receive my offer. Besides, I believe that once you have accepted my offer and begin to experience the riches that will come to you from me, that your primary (though not always) response will be gratitude and loyalty.
Some would call me foolish for my offer to you, but I wish for you to call me your Father.
Sincerely,
The Father of Jesus