Thursday, June 3, 2010

Glenn Beck on the Freedom Flotilla

Are Muslims outraged that non-Muslim women are being kidnapped, raped, and forced to convert to Islam? No. Are Muslims outraged at al-Qaeda and the Taliban for blowing up girls' schools? No. Are Muslims outraged that nine-year-old girls are dying because they're entering marriage way too early (following the teachings of Muhammad)? No. Are Muslims outraged at daily terrorist attacks around the world? No.

Muslims are outraged because Jewish soldiers dared to defend themselves. As everyone knows, non-Muslims have only one acceptable course of action when confronted by Muslims--submission. When Jews do not submit, people have to die.

If Muslims want to send aid to the Palestinians, they are free to do so. Egypt and Israel simply demand the right to inspect the cargo, to make sure that it does not contain weapons that may be used by terrorists. The leaders of the flotilla plot refused inspection, and chose to transport a number of terrorists to Gaza. Israel did what any nation in the world would have done--they attempted to board the ship. They were not greeted by peace advocates. They were greeted by pipes and knives. And the Israelis did what any nation in the world would have done. They defended themselves.

But since Islam is involved, the Jews are the bad ones. It seems that "Misplaced Rage Syndrome" is spreading to the entire world.

PART ONE


PART TWO


PART THREE

109 comments:

Reconciled! said...

David,
Sorry my comment is completely unrelated to the incident involving Israel and Hamas.

Blessings my dear Brother. I've been attempting to access the abnsat.com website directly but without success; so I then attempted to do so through your site, but encountered the same problem.

Is everything okay at ABN? I don't know why I can't access their site. If you know anything could you let me know please. GOD continue to bless you, your family, as well as your ministry.

FOR HIS GLORY!!

Zack_Tiang said...

I don't trust Glenn Beck.. He is known to be a fraud/hypocrite in his 'claims' on his show...

http://www.infowars.com/glenn-beck-for-dummies/

I'll put my trust Alex Jones over Glenn Beck.

LUIS said...

new footage might be released soon showing what really happened.

http://rt.com/Top_News/2010-06-04/flotilla-gaza-finkelstein-pollak.html

mkvine said...

Zack Tiang,

What exactly did Glenn Beck say on the show that is "fraud?"

Paul said...

http://www.ustream.tv/channel/radiorsitv2#flashWrapper

pictures of the 'weapons' to be smuggled into Gaza

Mr. Beck. I suggest you revise your analysis on the Nazi, apartheid, fascist state of Israel, which has turned Gaza into a version of the Warsaw Ghetto.

Nazam said...

MP Haneen Zuabi, who's a member of the Israeli parliament was among those captured onboard of Gaza-bound ships. She's since been released and has spoken to RT about what she had witnessed. She says Israeli marines started shooting before even boarding ship and Israel has confiscated all reporters film and true video evidence of what happened.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1HEFXcRThA

and this video shows Israel attacking ship before boarding, even when the people raised a white flag:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pn-l_JltCB4

Locrian said...

@Zack
That really has nothing to do with what's being said. You don't, well at least I don't, have to agree with everything someone says to be able to hear them out.

But in reply to your comment: I'd take the likes of a Glenn Beck all day when it's alternative is a man affiliated with the nutty ramblings of "Loose Change" like Alex. But this isn't the topic, so it's a moot point.

Zack_Tiang said...

Loose Change holds more truths than Glenn Beck can cry crocodile tears.. =)

minoria said...

I saw Nazam's 2 videos.Hanin Zuabi is an ARAB,most probably a MUSLIM.Get real,too many times Muslims have lied.Look at DEEDAT and SHABIR ALLY in how the manipulate information in a debate.Look at TARIQ RAMADAN.
The Muslims have only themselves to blame if people no longer believe them.I bet she was doing TAQIYA.That is how it is:"Mistrust a Muslim till you really know the person can be trusted."It's their fault if others have that opinion of them.

Odo said...

Hey Nazam,

I'm sorry I must have missed it because I watched the video which you say "SHOWS" the Israelis firing first and AFTER a white flag was raised, I watched very intensely mind you, I did not see anything like that. All I saw was an al Jazeera anchor SAY this. Can you please tell me the exact minute this happens in the video? And I'm not going to trust a word of what Haneen says, but I agree with her on one thing, Israel should release all the documentation (even though they have every right not to)

On the other hand, this video SHOWS CLEARLY the 'peace activists' attacking Israeli soldiers before they boarded the ship with a stun grenade, metal chains, and what looks like fire hoses (the soldiers are just standing around in their ship taking it, not firing at anyone, and since by your and Haneen's theory they have already killed two people why wouldn't they fire then too?):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTDVEtq6UAQ

Odo said...

Hi Paul,

I clicked on your link but it was some Spanish channel and unfortunately I do not speak Spanish (it was also something about food and nothing about the flotilla), you might want to look into that.

Odo said...

BTW: Take it from someone who spent a good portion of his life growing up in Russia – there is absolutely NOTHING objective, fair, or balanced about RUSSIA TODAY, for that matter any Russian media outlet. I think I would take the likes of al Jaazera propaganda over Russia today (far strech).

Odo's prediction: After the brand new nuke facility opens in Bashir this summer, Israel will get hit hard by Hamas in some way, shape, or form.

minoria said...

Hello Odo:
I think you are right about the RUSSIAN PRESS,it is widely known the government has destroyed the press that criticizes it,the press there has been shackled.

Tricia said...

Glenn Beck is a voice crying in the wilderness. Listen to him. God protect him.

mkvine said...

Zack Tang,

You still didn't show us what exactly was "fraud." Your little proverb doesn't cut it.

mkvine said...

Paul,

I went to the link you posted and I didn't see anything about the flotilla incident. All I saw was some Spanish show called "El Chavo del Ocho." What does this show have to do with the flotilla incident? LOL

The Fat Man said...

Zack tiang Ok man strap your tinfoil helmet on and go sell crazy someplace else we are all booked up here.

The Fat Man said...

Nazam

I don't understand why you posted a article saying 5 of the "ACTIVISTS" were shot in the head?

What does that prove that they were shot in the head?

The Fat Man said...

Nazam

you keep posting the same lame video's over and over again. First the woman didn't even know how far out to sea they were. She kept saying METERS so if they were only a 100 METERS out to sea then guess what they were well with in the Israel Teritorial waters.

Traeh pointed out that she was below deck so how could she see the white flag.

As far as your other video goes, man, they didn't even pretend not to have spliced it together. If that is a actual recording of the events before the Iraeli's landed on the ship then how come it repeats it self showing the same wounded "Activists"?

Also they show the masked men wearing standard Mujadeen head gare and face coverings holding metal rods. Thus backing up the Israel's claim that they were waiting to attack them.

Oh and the claim that they were firing on the ship before they even boarded it. Well if that is the case then how come we did not hear the ricoche of live rounds, how come no video of the BULLET HOLES in the side of the ship.

You can hear the sound of automatic gun fire, but who is firing and what are they firing at. You just take it for granted that it is the Israeli's and they are firing at the ship.

I'm sure it was the Israeli's but they where either firing in the air, or across the bow. How do I know, well were is the sound of gun fire hiting the deck, where are the pictures of the Bullet holes.

Even if they were firing on the ship they still were well with in their rights to do so.


Traeh also pointed out that you can see the "Activists" stabbing a Israeli soldier. Again backing up Israel version of events.

I mean really man, they are just selling you a bag of goods and your buying it. Doesn't this insult your intelligence there not even trying man.

Muslim's really if I supported the Gazinians or even if Israel had done such a horrid job of propaganda as this I would be totally insulted. At least put some effort it into, at least pretend to try to fool me.

The Fat Man said...

Paul

I am curious, before you reverted to Islam because of the wonderful poetry in the Koran, did you always support the Gazinians and hate the EVIL ZIONIST JEWS. Or was this something you learned.

Really it's a serious question. Because I have noticed this about reverts they really like attacking the EVIL ZIONIST JEWS.

The Fat Man said...

Nazzam

One more thing you do realize that some of the links you posted were to DAVID DUKE.

He was a GRAND DRAGON for the KKK

The Fat Man said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
John Lollard said...

To the Muslims,

I have to say that I generally support Israel, but I am trying to hold judgement on the issue of their boarding the ship. I have heard from a number of you that the Israelis opened fire on the boat before boarding. I went to the video Nazam posted, and it was nine minutes of what seemed to be just people speaking in Arabic. Do you have any actual videos of the Israelis opening fire before boarding the ship?

Even if this attack was illegal and immoral, it doesn't delegitimize Israel as a state nor their right to defend themselves, but I would like to get a more balanced view of what transpired. So if anyone at all happens to have some sort of first hand material (i.e. NOT a statement from a Palestinian prime minister) on the sequence of events, I would be very grateful. So far what I have seen is Israeli officers announcing the blockade and their intent to divert the ships to another port, the boarding, and the subsequent attacks. It really looks like Israel did everything properly, but I am open to contrary information.

Love in Christ,
JL

minoria said...

BLOCKADE

What is it anyway?it just means that before anything enters Gaza they CHECK to see if there are weapons.That is ALL.The Muslims make a big deal over nothing.

Gem said...

I am confused... what do you mean by illegal seizure or illegal blockade? Does it any difference in definition as to the randomly rocket fires by the Hamas to the civilian population in Israel? Would you consider their rockets flying to civilian are the acts of legality?

Anybody who wishes to blame on Israel, please use the same standard and apply it to Gazan terrorist toward state of Israel.

And where is Ban Ki Moon, Where is USA, Where is France, Where is German, Where is Ireland, Where is England, Where is Malaysia, Where is Turkey? None of them make any deal of it... Is their silence indicates that killing Israeli civilians are legal act? Please please tell me...

When I was in primary school, my teacher told me that quantity (numbers) does not make something true. But truthful fact makes something is true regardless there is follower or not.

Truth is truth... UN is now an organisation to serve the majority of deceptive countries... if you dont follow the current, you will be left behind...

Europe, your value is declining so fast ever since you let Arab/muslim to penetrate your life.. your decline also part of the cause of your detrimental moral value in God.

Europe, you may think your neutral and self-declared good people think you help the Gazan.... One day, your time will come when you look back and regret that you too will be the target by the terrorists...


I hope you repent and come to your senses..

Love in Christ
Gem

Mike said...

David, you and Robert Spencer do a great job of exposing Islam for what it is: an evil violent religion. And I'm saying this to you as a former Christian who is now an agnostic.

That being said, while I appreciate the work that you and Robert do, I am very frustrated at your constant defense of Israel. According to Christian theology, Jewish people are just as lost and headed for hell as much as the muslims. The New Testament makes it very clear that the people of God is the Church, not unbelieving Jews.

Also, you do realize that Palestinian Christians, your brothers and sisters in Christ, have also suffered oppression from the Israeli government as well, right? It's not just muslims who are suffering, you know.

John Lollard said...

"The New Testament makes it very clear that the people of God is the Church, not unbelieving Jews."

Hey Mike, I don't know what your faith background was, but a large portion of evangelicals in the US tend to be dispensationalists.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dispensationalism

There's a wikipedia article in case you hadn't heard of the belief so you can get an idea. Not to make a case for dispensationalism (even though it's what I believe), but that's the main reason why Christians are so supportive of Israel. (And it is a separate issue from the apocalypse.) I understand if you don't agree with it, but many Christians do. I'm sure there's enough of them around here that someone else will make that case if you stick around :P

I don't know if David is a dispensationalist. Even if he's not a dispensationalist, Muslims have made Israel their prime target. In a website dedicated to exposing Islamic violence, you would expect to hear an awful lot about Israel. And on the off-chance that Islamic activists were using violence and deception to destroy their largest rival, I would expect to see David reporting about it. Or at least that's my guess? I dunno.

Hope I helped more than annoyed.

Love in Christ,
JL

hugh watt said...

"Israeli troops 'board Rachel Corrie Gaza aid ship'

Israeli troops have boarded an aid ship trying to break the blockade of the Gaza Strip.

The Israeli military says the crew of the MV Rachel Corrie allowed its soldiers on to the Irish-owned vessel.

It says the boarding was peaceful and the ship is now being taken towards the Israeli port of Ashdod.

It comes days after nine people died in clashes when Israel troops boarded a Turkish aid ship, triggering international condemnation."


So what's the difference? No armed resistance vs armed resistance!
They knew they'd be stopped, and so complied with a reasonable request, as opposed to self-martyrs.

Mike said...

John, thanks for the kind and honest response. Gary DeMar, a Christian you might have heard of, strongly criticizes the effect that pre-millenial dispensationalism has on Christians. I think he is pretty on-target in his critique. That being said, don't take that as a complete endorsement of him and his ministry, as I strongly disagree with several other things he says and writes. In fact some things his ministry stands for I find horrifying. But on this issue, I think he's right on, at least in my opinion.

Again, thanks for the kind note. -Mike

John Lollard said...

Hey Mike,

I went to Gary's site just now, an watched what I believe is the video you were referring to. He makes some very, very good points, but I think there was some confusion, and maybe it's because I don't fully understand the words that I use.

Gary (and by proxy you) seem to be arguing mostly against an eschatology that teaches an impending rapture in relation to Biblical prophecy. From my (limited) understanding, however, dispensationalism is not strictly an eschatology but a theology on how God relates to his children, and it tends to be strongly tied together with a particular eschatology, namely pre-millennialism. What the video I saw (if it was the right one) focused on was the evangelical obsession with the rapture (which irks me as well) and pre-millennial eschatology. I understand dispensationalism to be the belief that God has worked with his people at different times through different covenants; there was a covenant with Adam, then with Cain, with Noah, the Abraham, the covenant of Law through Moses, and then the covenant of Grace through Christ. The last two (from what I understand) overlap until such a time as all those under Law are under Grace. Under this, the covenant of Law is still a valid covenant and the promises it entails are still upheld by God.

But maybe I'm dead wrong :P If that's not dispensationalism and is something else, then I believe whatever that is called, and so do most Christians that I know, whether they believe in impending apocalypse or not.

Thanks for the link, I found some other interesting stuff there as well!

Love in Christ,
JL

dasize said...

Mike,

What you believe is called Replacement Theology. The church never replaced Israel or the Jews. This goes against the Bible, both New and Old Testament. This is not to say Jews who reject Yeshua are saved, but that God still has a plan for Israel and the Jewish people as a whole. We are grafted into Israel, we do not replace Israel.

Paul makes it VERY clear.

11Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring!

13I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I make much of my ministry 14in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. 15For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.

17If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 DO NOT BOAST OVER THOSE BRANCHES. If you do, consider this: YOU DO NOT SUPPORT THE ROOT, but the root supports you.

19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. DO NOT BE ARROGANT, but be afraid. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, HE WILL NOT SPARE YOU EITHER.

minoria said...

Thank you Dasize.What you quote COINCIDES with ROM 11:1-2:
"I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. God did NOT reject his people, whom he foreknew."

They are still the chosen people.

dasize said...

"The New Testament makes it very clear that the people of God is the Church, not unbelieving Jews."

To make it clear, i was responding to the above quote.

dasize said...

Yes Minoria,

Replacement Theology is a very dangerous doctrine, and is a pet peeve of mine. Replacement Theology is what led to the murder and persecution of millions of Jews at the hands of the early so called "church". It attempts to divorce all Hebrew Roots of the faith and divorce Israel from the land.

Notice in the New Jerusalem when Jesus returns to the earth we find that the only way to get into the New Jerusalem is through one of the 12 gates named after the 12 TRIBES OF ISRAEL. There is NO Baptist Gate or even "Christian" Gate. Through the messiah we are grafted into Israel. The Religion of the Old Testament is the same as the New Testament. Jesus never came to establish a NEW Religion. The only difference is we now have a Messiah and certain things are fulfilled.

If you think God replaced Israel with the church then you will not be getting into the New Jerusalem. Also if God can replace Israel. Then what is to say he won't replace the Christians? Maybe the Koran is right, and now God has broke his covenant with the Christians and now it's with the Muslims???

Revelation 21:12-14

10: And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, 11Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal

12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the TWELVE TRIBES OF THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL

13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates. 14And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

Zack_Tiang said...

The Fat Man said...
"Zack tiang Ok man strap your tinfoil helmet on and go sell crazy someplace else we are all booked up here."


Very mature... *roll eyes*

You've just commit a 'over/quick-generalization' fallacy.

There are plenty of 'tinfoil helmets' wearers on any side of any topics anyways.

[Off-Topic]
Search out the difficulty of defying laws of physics by having a steel skyscraper crumble down *within its own footprint* with only fire in the middle of the building. You can try from these sites I pointed to.

www.infowars.com
www.prisonplanet.com

Sorry for going off topic, but I just don't trust the mainstream news/media so eagerly.. especially the ones from US. =/

Still love what you guys are doing in this site though. Keep revealing Islam for what it is.
[/off-topic]

Zack_Tiang said...

I'm not trying to support Muslims..
I'm just trying to share an alternative view about this event and possibly the truth.
These are mostly written articles from other sources (link to the full article provided at end of some of these articles).


Hijacking of the truth: film evidence 'destroyed'
http://www.prisonplanet.com/the-hijacking-of-the-truth-film-evidence-destroyed.html

Gaza Flotilla activists were shot in head at close range
http://www.prisonplanet.com/gaza-flotilla-activists-were-shot-in-head-at-close-range.html

Israel under fire for doctoring Flotilla recordings
http://www.prisonplanet.com/israel-under-fire-for-doctoring-flotilla-recordings.html

IDF retracts claim Al-Qaeda was on Flotilla, corporate media silent
http://www.infowars.com/idf-retracts-claim-al-qaeda-was-on-flotilla-corporate-media-silent/

US Shouldn't support Israel's Gaza blockade
http://www.infowars.com/ron-paul-u-s-shouldnt-support-israels-gaza-blockade/

The Fat Man said...

Zack Tang....

What do conspiracy nuts have in common. They all think there more important then they really are, and for some reason, they are the only ones who have figured out this great conspiracy.

I got news for you Zack, there is no conspiracy and your not important.

So it's ok to take off the tinfoil hat man. Really no one is interested in your brain waves.

minoria said...

Hello:
I had a good laugh just now when because I defend Israel one of the Muslims in the Spanish-language Muslim forum(a woman called Badr) wrote:

"No creo que detrás del minoría haya ninguna persona, sino agentes del servicio de propaganda sionista. La sicología no abona el que sea una persona."

"I don't think that behind minoria there is any person,but AGENTS of the ZIONIST PROPAGANDA SERVICE.Psychology is not in favor that it is a person."

She thinks it is an Jewish facade working against Muslims.

Zack_Tiang said...

The Fat Man said...
"What do conspiracy nuts have in common. They all think there more important then they really are, and for some reason, they are the only ones who have figured out this great conspiracy."

Presumptuous and merely personal opinions.
You speak as if you know every one of the so-called 'conspiracy nuts', and in an effect, you know me very well too.. which you obviously do not.

Please don't make me find more reason to have lesser respect of you, someone who is also on the side of Christ.
Please don't jump to conclusions without investigating both sides of the arguments... or in this case, the 'conspiracy'.

The Berean Search said...

Zack,

Alex Jones believes Jewish bankers are at the heart of a worldwide conspiracy and trying to take over the world. Alex Jones' materials are also a favorite of Muslims on youtube because of his insistence that it was not Islamic terrorists that took down the World Trade Center, and his insistence that there is no Islamic terrorism problem. What he does is not real journalism Zack. He attacks mainstream journalists in order to convince his audience that he is the only media outlet they can trust.

You've been had Zack. Also, if you've spent any amount of time looking at the materials presented on this blog you should know better on the issue of Islam and terrorism.

dasize said...

Free Gaza the REAL VERSION!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tOdW0qEy4g&feature=player_embedded

dasize said...

Free Gaza the REAL VERSION!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tOdW0qEy4g&feature=player_embedded

Zack_Tiang said...

Berean Search,

I spend reasonable time on both Alex Jone's sites and this blog, as well as Answering-Islam.org (which both I really enjoy).
but no, Alex is not completely discounting Islam involvement... cause he doesn't even focus on religious debates/topics/matters of any kind (except the cultic practices of the 'power elites'.

Btw, he has ever claimed to be a Christian, along with some of the others, and I believe including the one who made 'Loose Change';
though I admit I don't know what are his beliefs with regards to Jesus as he never discusses religion in his articles or videos (possibly to appeal to a more general audience).

His 'conspiracies' may seem 'far-fetched' and his 'journalism methods' may be less than appealing. But he isn't the only one who is claiming these 'conspiracies'...
Even Jesse Ventura has spoken about the conspiracies in America in his book "American Conspiracies: Lies, Lies, and More Dirty Lies That the Government Tells Us".

What Alex reports does not discount the Muslim terrorism part of the equation... To say Alex does so is to say that he claims Japan had nothing to do with the Pearl Harbor incident, which I assure you he doesn't.

Zack_Tiang said...

Btw...
Can anyone point me to where I can get other debate videos of Qureshi, Wood, Shamoun or White against other opponents besides Islam? i.e. Atheist, other religions, etc.

Please and thank you. Much appreciated.

minoria said...

Hello Dasize:
You are right I have heard that also...nobody is starving in Gaza,they have plenty of food.

The Berean Search said...

Zack,

You can get access to all of James White's debates and responses at www.aomin.org and his YouTube channel DrOakley1689.

It's my understanding that Sam only debates Islam. There has to be an index of his debates at www.answering-islam.org or somewhere online (if not someone needs to make one).

I think most of David's debates are here on the blog or at answeringinfidels, and I'm note sure if Nabeel does public debates with non Muslims, but since both of them run this blog I'm sure you can a more conclusive response.

Odo said...

Flotilla 'peace activists': "shut up, go back to Auschwitz!"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9dE2StbDL_Q&feature=player_embedded

White House Press Corps representative (no longer): "go back to Poland and Germany"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQcQdWBqt14

Hmmm...seems interestingly similar...

The Fat Man said...

Zack said...

"Please don't make me find more reason to have lesser respect of you,"

Thank you for demonstrating one of the two things that conspiracy nutters have in common. That they all think there more important then they really are.

Zack, I honestly don't care if you loose any respect for me or have any respect for me. To be honest as soon as I saw your post that you would go back to listing to Alex Jones for your news. I knew I had absolutely NO RESPECT FOR YOU.

Zack_Tiang said...

Berean Search,

Much appreciated for the info. =D

Zack_Tiang said...

The Fat Man said...
"Thank you for demonstrating one of the two things that conspiracy nutters have in common. That they all think there more important then they really are.

Zack, I honestly don't care if you loose any respect for me or have any respect for me. To be honest as soon as I saw your post that you would go back to listing to Alex Jones for your news. I knew I had absolutely NO RESPECT FOR YOU."

A voice of reason. Sigh...

Romans 12, Romans 14.

May God bless you, Fat Man.

Zack_Tiang said...

I'm not trying to defend Islam... Just stating that there may be more to this story than what's reported in the mainstream media...

http://www.prisonplanet.com/did-the-idf-execute-mavi-marmara-victims.html

"This is the conclusion of the autopsy conducted by the Turkish Council of Forensic Medicine, which also did autopsies on the eight other Turkish citizens killed in the Israeli raid on the Mavi Marmara ferry and five other smaller boats in the so-called Freedom Flotilla. Of the other eight dead, the medical examiners found that five had been shot in the back, or in the back of the head."

"So much for the Israeli government propaganda about its poor and unprepared commandos being surprised and set upon by vicious “terrorists” on the boat, armed with kitchen knives, sticks and metal rods, when they were anticipating nothing but peaceful resistance. (This absurd story line was contradicted by Israel’s other story line, that it considered the organizer of the flotilla, the Turkish IHH charity, to be linked to Hamas and Hezbollah, and that it “knew” that Palestinian terrorists had insinuated themselves among the boat’s activists–a claim which, if true, means the commandos would have been, and surely were, well-armed and prepared for a truly violent reception.)"

(I can't seem to find the article talking about the supposed link between flotilla and Hamas, etc.)

In raw video, reporters claim Israelis fired on activists before boarding ship
http://www.prisonplanet.com/in-raw-video-reporters-claim-israelis-fired-on-activists-before-boarding-ship.html
(At the moment, I can't view the video, so I'll just share it and hope it's there and working)

The Fat Man said...

Zach Tiang here is why I do not respect conspiracy nutters like yourself.

1. This might come as a shock to you. But there are NO GRAND CONSPIRACIES. What I mean by this is that No one is at the helm. And to be honest that is more scary then a small group of men and woman conspiring to control the destiny of the world.

2. The problem with conspiracies is that they need to be secret. And people can not not keep a secret everybody loves to talk.

3. As stated before people who subscribe to consiparacy therories think that they are more importantent then what they are, and think that some how they are so smart to figure out this global conspiracy when the rest of the world can't seem to put the pieces together.

And finally what I find most offensive about people like you is that you give aid and comfort to the enemies of the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. YOU MAKE A MOCKERY OF THOSE THAT DIED ON SEPT 11th. I find what you subscribe to is vile and offensive. You have a weak mind, and you are just a "USEFUL IDIOT"

Zach according to conspiracy nutters like your self.

There is alot about 9-11 we don't know. We don't know if the planes were flown by remote control, we don't know if it was a cruze missle that struck the pentagon. We don't know if it was a high energy particle weapon in outer space that collapsed the building. We don't know if it was explosives planted in the twin towers, or when those explosives were planted. Some sugjest it was during construction.

We don't know if anyone was on the plain or if any of those that were on the plane actually existed. Some have suggested that there lives were all made up on paper.

We don't know if those that were on the plane are still alive or if they were killed at a later time. That is assuming that they are real people and that they existed in the first place.

We don't know who was responsible, if it was the Free Masons acting on orders from the Illuminati or if it was the Illuminati acting on orders from the Free Masons, or if it was Zionist Jews controlling the Illuminati and the Free Masons, or if it was George Bush controlling the Illuminati through the Free Masons by way of Haliburton who the Zionist Jews Control.

But one thing we do know for sure. Is that there is no way in God's green earth that a bunch of cave dwelling cammel riding Sand Arabs could of learned how to fly planes into buildings because there just TO STUPID.

The Fat Man said...

Zach said...

In raw video, reporters claim Israelis fired on activists before boarding ship
http://www.prisonplanet.com/in-raw-video-reporters-claim-israelis-fired-on-activists-before-boarding-ship.html
(At the moment, I can't view the video, so I'll just share it and hope it's there and working)

Ingoring the fact that you have not viewed the video.

Didnt you read what Amir has been posting over and over again. That 5 of those that died were shot at close range in the HEAD. How can the Israeli's be firing at a distance and the majority of those killed are killed at close range.

The fact that the majority of those killed were killed at close range supports the Israeli version of events.

Zack_Tiang said...

Fat Man,

First of all, thank God you are speaking more 'lovingly' now than previously. Though still 'hostile'.

The Fat Man said...
"The fact that the majority of those killed were killed at close range supports the Israeli version of events."

And the fact that most of those head shots are from the back does not support the idea that the Israeli were defending themselves.
http://www.prisonplanet.com/did-the-idf-execute-mavi-marmara-victims.html

And as I said before, I'm just sharing information and am not trying to defend 'enemies'. don't become so blinded with your zeal to pin everything with 'Muslims' and 'terrorist' labels on it on Islam. It is unfair to ignore the possible facts that may have been hidden.

If these information can be proven to be false, then prove them with evidences.
Otherwise, sadly, it stands as plausible fact.


And you may find this odd, but I find Alex Jone's 'conspiracies' rather in line with God's Revelation and how the End of Days will come about or be like.
It's almost like seeing the threads set up by Satan connecting this event to this person to that event to etc...
But this is purely my own opinion, which isn't purely from Alex Jone's, but also from others who spoke on different topics; Chuck Missler, Kent Hovind, etc.


And I disagree with your statement,
"The problem with conspiracies is that they need to be secret. And people can not not keep a secret everybody loves to talk."
A conspiracy or secret is a secret, but doesn't mean people can't intercept it and leak out the information or announced it to the world so that everyone will be aware of its existence.

Just look up CLIMATEGATE regarding the fraudulent practices of climate scientists with regards to man-made global warming (or so euphemistically named 'Climate Change').


And regarding someone asking me what Glenn Beck spoke fraud about...
With regards to these particular videos posted, I do not know, cause I haven't view them..
and I'm not knowledgeable regarding what happened at Flotilla and Israel in the first place. So I'm not posing any opinion or stances regarding what happened.

Let me be clear, I'm just sharing alternative views of what happened and being neutral about this.
There are valid arguments and evidences on both sides of this argument.
(Though I don't agree with the points given by our Muslim friends here. =P)

John Lollard said...

Fat Man,

I've been wondering for a while, and now I think I'm done wondering so I'll just ask.

Are you even a Christian?

And if you are, then why?

I honestly don't see any point in bothering with the Nazarene when you will then turn around and be verbally abusive to people on the internet. I'm pretty sure He can read blog comments, and I doubt your pseudonym throws Him off your trail.

Your page says that you like the Bible. Do you just enjoy reading it, is it a hobby for you, is it just a cultural thing your parents did so now you do it, are you a new testament critic?

Or do you think that you're somehow living out an obedient Christian lifestyle with your rhetoric and vitriol? Like, do you think your tirade against Zack is submitting yourself to him out of love, speaking to him in hymns and spiritual songs, do you think it is edifying to him, that it is a gentle and merciful correction and not a stupid and useless argument leading to quarreling? When you read your comment, do you think, "Yes, this is loving my neighbor as myself and my God above all else", do you see a reflection of the agape of God in your actions and attitudes?

Just thought I'd ask. After all, I still know very little of love... maybe you know more than I do.

Love in Christ,
JL

Zack_Tiang said...

Fat Man: "And finally what I find most offensive about people like you is that you give aid and comfort to the enemies of the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. YOU MAKE A MOCKERY OF THOSE THAT DIED ON SEPT 11th."

I'm sorry. (Though I need not be) But isn't it more offensive to the families who lost their loved ones on that day when the government doesn't even allow any independent investigation into what really happened.
(Like how Christians are able to independently investigate the truth for themselves?)
And contrary to your belief, these 'conspiracy nutters' are representing the 9-11 families better and more closely than you are.

The official story is not sufficient to explain how the 2 towers (plus a third, WTC Building 7, which was NOT hit by a plane, but collapsed the same manner hours after the twin towers) collapsed within their own footprints, due to only jet fuel fire (not hot enough to melt steel) and completely disappearing into dust and small rubles (including most of the tower's tougher/more durable inner core structure).
Please explain how the towers' steel structure get destroyed and crumbled like a tower of cards due to only fire and damages in the middle of the building.

Reputable architects and engineers question how the steel buildings could collapse like that; Fact: these are the first and only three steel buildings ever to collapse like that due to fire damages.
http://cms.ae911truth.org/index.php/news/41-articles/288-ae911truth-structural-engineer-dismantles-the-nist-analysis-of-wtc-7.html
Even controlled demolition experts agree that only controlled demolition can explain the collapse..
http://www.infowars.com/top-construction-firm-wtc-destroyed-by-controlled-demolition/

Comparison of a Beijing hotel engulfed in flames with Building 7's collapse due to fire...
http://www.prisonplanet.com/still-standing-the-building-that-proves-wtc-7-was-imploded.html
http://www.prisonplanet.com/more-proof-against-wtc-7-lies.html

Then there's also the problem of explosions reports at the lobby BEFORE the plane crash.
And this reports come from witnesses and victims themselves... (Remember how Nabeel always talks about multiple attestation and early witness testimonies?)
http://www.infowars.com/possibly-the-best-evidence-of-a-bomb-explosion-before-the-first-plane-hit/
And there's also William Rodriguez, famous for being the last man out of the WTC Twin Tower and known hero for leading people out of the building.
http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/june2005/240605officialstory.htm
http://www.infowars.com/articles/sept11/rodriguez_911_survivor_questions_official_story_fox_news.htm
And of course, there are testimonies that agree with his account.
http://www.infowars.com/articles/sept11/new_eyewitness_wtc_basement_level_explosions.htm


Stop Belittling theories About Sept 11
http://dissidentvoice.org/Aug06/Christison14.htm

How We Woke Up
http://www.infowars.com/how-we-woke-up-we-are-change-san-antonio/

Zack_Tiang said...

The Fat Man said..
"3. As stated before people who subscribe to consiparacy therories think that they are more important then what they are, and think that some how they are so smart to figure out this global conspiracy when the rest of the world can't seem to put the pieces together."

If following the argument of 'being consistent'.. wouldn't this in turn apply to Christians?

"People who subscribe to the bible think that they are more important than what they are, and think that somehow they are so smart to figure out the path to salvation when the rest of the world can't seem to put the pieces together."

Sorry, no substance in that statement. It's just pure opinion. =/

Alex said...

Well done, man! It's very unusual to see somebody sharing his real thoughts on the event. Well, it's quite unusual to meet somebody having his/her own thoughts on any political event. I can only congratulate Fox on having this man on the team.

The Fat Man said...

Zack_Tiang said...

Fat Man,

First of all, thank God you are speaking more 'lovingly' now than previously. Though still 'hostile'.

Yes I am hostile, as a matter of fact I have a extreme prejudice towords anyone who blames what happened on 9-11 on the US government, or anyone else other then those that are responsible. Namely Islamic Jihadists.



The Fat Man said...
"The fact that the majority of those killed were killed at close range supports the Israeli version of events."

And the fact that most of those head shots are from the back does not support the idea that the Israeli were defending themselves.

So which is it make up your mind. Did the Israeli’s fire from long range, other boats and helicopters or did they shoot at close range as the forensics and video’s have established? You can’t have it both ways. There are many reasons why someone could be shot in the back of the head while attacking. Perhaps they were attacking an Israel soldier and another Israeli soldier intervened and shot the terrorist in the back of the head.



If these information can be proven to be false, then prove them with evidences.

Prove what false? That the majority of those killed were shot at close range? Why would I try to disprove a fact that the Israeli’s did not fire from long range but from close range in close quarter combat. It is you who has to prove that those shot at close range were not attacking Israeli soldiers. But in order to do that you would have to discount all the video evidence.


Otherwise, sadly, it stands as plausible fact.

What is a plausible fact? That they were shot at close range in close quartered combat? I don’t think that is plausible I think THAT’S A FACT ZACK.




But this is purely my own opinion, which isn't purely from Alex Jone's, but also from others who spoke on different topics; Chuck Missler, Kent Hovind, etc.

Chuck Missler, don’t know who he is but Kent Hovind is another NUT CASE who is doing 10 years in Federal Prison for Tax Evasion. Just to let you know Tax Evasion like purgery, and fraud are considered crimes against one’s personal character. In other words he is not to be trusted.


And I disagree with your statement,
"The problem with conspiracies is that they need to be secret..."
A conspiracy or secret is a secret, but doesn't mean people can't intercept it and leak out the information or announced it to the world so that everyone will be aware of its existence.

Just look up CLIMATEGATE regarding the fraudulent practices of climate scientists with regards to man-made global warming (or so euphemistically named 'Climate Change').

That’s my point exactly people talk. So tell me who is in charge of this grand global conspiracy? How many people are involved what are their names. Is there a hiachery, who are the underlings that carry out the orders? Do they have a secret hand shake or wear PLEDGE PINS?

With ClimateGate we know exactly who was involved who they reported too, why it happened etc…




Let me be clear, I'm just sharing alternative views of what happened and being neutral about this.

Not posing any opinions, you just stated "But this is purely my own opinion," in regards to conspiracy theories. Just sharing alternative views? Well by sharing those alternative views and defending them you are posing opinions. Quit hiding and come out of the closet man.

The Fat Man said...

ZACK SAID….

Fat Man: "And finally what I find most offensive about people like you is that you give aid and comfort to the enemies of the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. YOU MAKE A MOCKERY OF THOSE THAT DIED ON SEPT 11th."

I'm sorry. (Though I need not be) But isn't it more offensive to the families who lost their loved ones on that day when the government doesn't even allow any independent investigation into what really happened.
(Like how Christians are able to independently investigate the truth for themselves?)
And contrary to your belief, these 'conspiracy nutters' are representing the 9-11 families better and more closely than you are.

Really how? Some Conspiracy nutters say their family members never existed? Some say that if they did exist then they were paid to disappear or duped into dying. Some even say that the phone calls were faked. Think about this, the last phone call you receive from your loved one before their horable death is played out for the whole word to see, something that is a cherished last memory of Love. Is called by some a FAKE. How is that representing the families of the victims of 9-11?

During memorials at ground zero where the families go to pay their respects. 9-11 conspiracy nutters show up with bull horns chanting “It was a inside job” completely disrespecting them and their cherished memories of their loved ones. How is that representing them?


The official story is not sufficient to explain how the 2 towers (plus a third, WTC Building 7, which was NOT hit by a plane, but collapsed the same manner hours after the twin towers) collapsed within their own footprints, due to only jet fuel fire (not hot enough to melt steel) and completely disappearing into dust and small rubles (including most of the tower's tougher/more durable inner core structure).
Please explain how the towers' steel structure get destroyed and crumbled like a tower of cards due to only fire and damages in the middle of the building.


Reputable architects and engineers question how the steel buildings could collapse like that; Fact: these are the first and only three steel buildings ever to collapse like that due to fire damages.

The official story does not explain. Ok I guess your right. There is no way that 19 Sand Sucking, Cammel Jockey’s could be smart enough to take and pass a entrance exam for commercial flight school. Even if they were able to do that there is no way they could have been smart enough to learn how to navigate a plane cockpit much less fly it into a building. No that’s just not possible.

As far as the destruction is concerned please read Popular Mechanics, where real reputable architects, engineers, demolitions experts debunk the myths.

Just to let you know steel does not have to melt to lose it’s structural integrity. Just watch a video of a Samurai sword maker, they heat the steal so it becomes malleable so they can fold it thousands of times on itself and shape it into a sword.

Your comment on Reputable architects and engineers is laughable. There is a interview with a reputable engineer. She is a PHD of engeneering I forget what school she taught at. But she does a interview on how it was high energy particle space weapons that vaporized the buildings. Yeah that’s believable.

As far as building 7 is concerned lets see two huge buildings collapse causing a local seismic event of 2.1 to 2.3. (Please don’t repeat the error that they seismic events happened before the collapse.) Building 7 had a 60 thousand gallon desal fuel tank with feeder lines running the length of the building that caught fire. So 2.1 to 2.3 earth quake, 60 thousand gallons of burning diseal fuel. Yeah I see your point that building should of stayed up.

The Fat Man said...

Zack said...

Comparison of a Beijing hotel engulfed in flames with Building 7's collapse due to fire...

Did two jumbo jets fly into two 100 story buildings next door causing them to collapse in a pile of rubble which caused a minor earthquake of 2.1 to 2.5? Was there 60 thousand gallons of Disel fuel in the Beijing hotel with feeder pipes that ran along the support structure of the building that was allowed to burn unchecked for several hours? If not then there is no comparison.

Then there's also the problem of explosions reports at the lobby BEFORE the plane crash.

There are no credible reports of explosions from the lobby before the plane hit. That is a rumor that started circulating and spread over the internet and it keeps getting repeated and repeated.

Now as far as the reports of explosions proceeding the collapse of the towers, as well as the video showing windows being blown out as the building collapsed. I want you to do a simple experiment.

You will need two things for this experiment.

A sheet of news paper
A ruler, yard or meter stick, or even a pencil will do. But a long ruler is preferred.
First place a pencil on a desk with part of overhanging the edge. Then try to lift the pencil or ruler off the table by pressing down on the part that is over hanging the edge. You will notice that the pencil or ruler lifts up without any effort there is no resistance.

Now unfold the news paper over the pencil or ruler and try the same thing. You will notice that more force is needed to left the ruler or pencil off the table. What is causing this resistence. Is it the news paper? No the news paper is not that heavy. It’s the weight of the volume of air pressing down on the news paper that is so heavy. A news paper is only a few square feet. Now imagine a 60,000 square foot column of air being compressed by the pancake effect of a concrete floor in under a second. That air has to go someplace, and out the window it will go.

The Fat Man said...

Zack Said...

"People who subscribe to the bible think that they are more important than what they are, and think that somehow they are so smart to figure out the path to salvation when the rest of the world can't seem to put the pieces together."

Sorry, no substance in that statement. It's just pure opinion. =/

No Zack,the bible teaches there is nothing special about those that are saved by the GRACE OF GOD. It is not anything that we do, we are Called by the father, we do not call him. We are saved by faith through Christ, not by anything we do.

The Fat Man said...

Well Zack it has been fun but I have spent way to much time on someone who wears tinfoil on their head, so I return you to your regularly scheduled program. A place were everything can be explained by a super evil conspiracy that only you and a few other's seemed to have figured out. Good luck to you I wish you well. And hey if there is a super secret global conspiracy and you find them out. Let me know were I can sign up. Because those guys sound like successful people.

Zack_Tiang said...

My gosh, The Fat Man... So much problems with your arguments... Sigh.. in all honesty, I'm not that willing to bother to answer... but I will try my best to.
Almost reminds me of how Osama would debate.

"Yes I am hostile....."

Well... I'm sorry, first and foremost, if you're willing to just listen to whatever the media and politicians say and then discount whatever anyone else say... and without bothering to check out their arguments.

For me, 9/11 is the easiest one amongst the conspiracies to see that something is wrong.
But, like an atheist that would continue to demand evidence after evidence to prove God's existence, you probably won't accept any of what I said.
But I hope that the truth will set you free.

"Did the Israeli’s fire from long range, other boats and helicopters or did they shoot at close range as the forensics and video’s have established?"

Have you forgotten the fact that not ALL of them were head shots or close-range shots?
Is it not possible that the 'long-ranged' shots fired BEFORE the boarding can be purposely done just to scare the activists? Like warning shots; to show who's in-charge or they meant business?

"Perhaps they were attacking an Israel soldier and another Israeli soldier intervened and shot the terrorist in the back of the head. "

Problem with that is... some (not sure if it was all, instead) of the victims shot at the back... had more than ONE shots taken to the back... No one who is DEFending would shoot a person in the back multiple times.

"What is a plausible fact?"

Sigh.. can't you have just easily apply my statement to all the rest of my arguments so far?
Can't you have just easily accepted my statement as to mean like 'this could possibly be a fact', instead of 'this is plausible' only?

Please don't be so zealous with your arguments that you blindly attack every word/statement I said when it is not necessary.

The Fat Man said...

John Lollard asked if I was a Christian, that's a fair question.
Well John all I can tell u is this.

Let’s see I believe that God is ONE, he has a Name YWHY that is his name forever. He manifests himself in three distinct persons Father, Son and Spirit. These three persons always existed as God, because they are GOD. There was never a time when the Son existed without the father or the Father without the Son or the Son and Father without the Spirit. They are Co Equal and Co eternal.

I believe that God created the universe as a home for man, and that the only reason he created Man was so he could express the love he shares between Father Son and Spirit. We were created so God could love us.

I believe that at a time in man’s history, in time and space the Son of God became flesh, (Tabernacled with us) by becoming Jesus or as you called him The Nazarene. “That although being the very nature of God did not consider this something to he held on to at all cost but instead humbled himself… to the point of death even death on the cross.

I believe that the only way to be saved from Gods just wrath because of the wickedness of your heart is by the perfect atoning sacrifice of Christ, who as high priest sacrificed once and for all.

I repented and confessed these things and was baptized in 1997. I became a Christian not to be a nice person, or better man or to help my fellow man. I became a Christian to escape the coming wrath of GOD.

Now as far as attacking people, sorry I haven’t attacked anyone. If you think that expressing my total disgust for 9-11 conspiracy nutters is a attack, well you should of read my response to Osama Abdullah I attacked him for his comment on “Latin woman are the easiest to ****." Yeah it wasn't pretty.

I did apologies to the blog, and to David personaly on ABN SAT Television. OH I also attacked some Muslim I forget which one. Actually I didnt mean to attack him.

He cursed me to hell, to which I responded with word's to the effect of "Well if I do wind up in Islamic Hell I wont be lonely because according to Islamic doctrine your wife will be there too." Now that wasn't supposed to read like that, it was supposed to say "The majority of those in hell will be Muslim wives." But either way it was wrong and David Wood rebuked me for it. Saying "That is UN ACCEPTABLE" and it was.

So what I am trying to say to you is, when I attack someone you will know it.

Now if my responses to Zack seem un Christian to you, maybe they are maybe there not. But you need to show me in the bible where it says "Thou Shall be Stupid" or "Respect the fool"

I can show you were we are ordered not to be simple minded and stupid, and I can show you were we are to confront the fool other wise he will seem wise in his own eyes.

John Lollard said...

See, Fat Man, I hear you say that you acknowledge one God called YHVH who is Triune, but I don't see you actually believing in YHVH. What I see you doing is gratifying your sinful human urge to be arrogant and boastful while talking about YHVH at the same time. That doesn't sound like repentance or regeneration, that sounds like excusing spiritual death by showing me where you got God's business card at a conference. Doesn't convince me you work for the guy.

The Bible does say to confront false teachers. Here's the thing; "confront" in the Greek doesn't come out to "insult and belittle". It actually just comes out to "confront".

"Flee the evil desires of youth, and pursue righteousness, faith, love and peace, along with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart. Don't have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels. And the Lord's servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, and that they will come to their senses and escape the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to their will."
- 2 Timothy 2:22-26

"My dear brothers, take note of this: Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speak and slow to become angry, for man's anger does not bring about the righteous life that God desires. Therefore, get rid of all moral filth and the evil that is so prevalent and humbly accept the word planted in you, which can save you... If anyone considers himself religious and yet does not keep a tight rein on his tongue, he deceives himself and his religion is worthless."
- James 1:19,20,21,26 (The entire passage is relevant, but too long to quote)

"Brothers, do not slander one another. Anyone who speaks against his brother or judges him speaks against the law and judges it. When you judge the law, you are not keeping it, but sitting in in judgement on it. There is only on Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you - who are you to judge your neighbor?"
- James 4:11-12 (Also, the passage above this quote is relevant)

"But you, dear friends, remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold. They said to you, 'In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires.' These men are the men who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit. But you, dear friends, build yourselves up in your most holy faith and pray in the Holy Spirit. Keep yourselves in God's love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life. Be merciful to those who doubt; snatch others from the fire and save them; to others show mercy, mixed with fear - hating even the clothing stained by corrupted flesh."
- Jude 17-23

"... Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that is within you, but do so with gentleness and respect, keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander."
- 1 Peter 3:15-16 [think Muslims who constantly complain about the civility here...]

"Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen. And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice. Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you."
- Ephesians 4:29-32

I tried to get all of the New Testament authors in there.

Love in Christ,
JL

Zack_Tiang said...

"That’s my point exactly people talk. So tell me who is in charge of this grand global conspiracy? How many people are involved what are their names. Is there a hiachery, who are the underlings that carry out the orders? Do they have a secret hand shake or wear PLEDGE PINS?"

Interesting... maybe you should look into what Alex Jone's and others are reporting about the Bilderberg bunch at this very recent time.
That should help answer some of those questions.

"Not posing any opinions, you just stated "But this is purely my own opinion," in regards to conspiracy theories. Just sharing alternative views? Well by sharing those alternative views and defending them you are posing opinions. Quit hiding and come out of the closet man."

Dude, quoting me out of context... not cool.
I said my opinions about how these conspiracies connected with one another and with Revelation is purely my opinion.
Not on the conspiracy theories alone.
And all those links/articles is me sharing alternative news.
yes, I am posing opinions, but NOT mine!

Is it so hard for you to just accept and learn what the other people have to say about a matter and then reject it if you find it wrong? Like Qureshi, Wood and others study Islam and are able to reject its teaching?
If you hold to the truth, why do you not examine the arguments to that truth of yours, but instead reject it immediately?

"And hey if there is a super secret global conspiracy and you find them out. Let me know were I can sign up. Because those guys sound like successful people."

Again... You can try the Bilderberg group.. a gathering of the most powerful/influential people from around the world.. or at least the most influential parts of the world; US, UK, etc.

Zack_Tiang said...

"How is that representing the families of the victims of 9-11?"

Well, there are those families who lost their loved ones who are also seeking to find out what happened more (and are prevented by the government from doing so... or the gov refuse to answer their inquiries)... and a lot of them are on the side where Alex Jone, 9-11 Truthers, etc are too.
Not all of those families disapprove Alex Jone and co.. .I'd say at least half of them agree with them.

And just as there are Christians who do things that aren't what Christ teaches, there exists the same problem in this group too.
So, applying consistency, if some Christians do the wrong or sinful things, does that make all that Christ teaches wrong?
[please don't argue that I'm comparing Alex Jone's with Christ. I am merely comparing the situation/circumstances.]

"The official story does not explain. Ok I guess your right. There is no way that 19 Sand Sucking, Cammel Jockey’s could be smart enough to take and pass a entrance exam for commercial flight school.............."

Dude... read my statement... to the end.
Was I questioning the part about Muslim terrorists hijacking planes? NO.
I was questioning how the steel buildings collapsed due to fire.
[Red herring.]

"Just to let you know steel does not have to melt to lose it’s structural integrity."

Sounds true enough. Now let's think about it...
The damages were in the middle of the building. So... how would a structure collapse when its middle was losing its structural integrity?
Wouldn't it break off in the middle, and the bottom is left standing, or at least mostly the bottom?
What happened with the WTC Towers? from over 100 storeys, into a pile of rubles/debris only a few storey high... barely any remaining structure of the bottom part of the towers remained..

And structural failure doesn't explain the huge cloud of dust that swept New York that day.
How does it? [Then add with your 'pancake effect argument later on, still doesn't explain the cloud of dust]

Zack_Tiang said...

you wanna talk Popular Mechanics?
http://911research.wtc7.net/essays/pm/
http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/September2006/270906Debunked.htm
http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/march2005/070305chertoffscousin.htm

"Your comment on Reputable architects and engineers is laughable. There is a interview with a reputable engineer. She is a PHD of engeneering I forget what school she taught at. But she does a interview on how it was high energy particle space weapons that vaporized the buildings. Yeah that’s believable."

Well, in Christianity, there are those with PhDs, scholars, teachers or whatever other qualifications who believe God is One but manifests in 3 separate stages at different times, or Jesus is Michael the Archangel, etc.
Just as that doesn't discredit all Christian understanding, so does this woman's conclusion to the 9-11 'conspiracy theories'.

Building 7, seismic activities, and "60 thousand gallon desal fuel tank with feeder lines running the length of the building that caught fire"...

Hmmm... let's see...
http://freespeech.vo.llnwd.net/o25/pub/pp/images/february2009/100209top11.jpg
Look what's in between wtc 7 and the twin towers... What's still standing between the two?
and also, how'd the fire in building 7 get started in the first place?

And again, how does fire collapse this building but not the Beijing Hotel?
And looking at videos of Building 7's collapse, was there any clear sign of 'raging' fire due to the "60 thousand gallon desal fuel tank with feeder lines running the length of the building that caught fire"?
http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/wtc7.html
http://www.wtc7.net/videos.html
None whatsoever.

[EXTRA: BBC Reported Building 7 Had Collapsed 20 Minutes Before It Fell - http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/february2007/260207building7.htm]

Zack_Tiang said...

"Was there 60 thousand gallons of Disel fuel in the Beijing hotel with feeder pipes that ran along the support structure of the building that was allowed to burn unchecked for several hours? If not then there is no comparison."

Compare building 7's 'fire' and the Beijing hotel's fire...
Read the articles about how long the Beijing hotel's fire lasted and look at the picture of how the fire raged... then compare to how the fire 'raged' on Building 7.
Then tell me again how is it that "there is no comparison"?
here's a link with the photos...
http://www.prisonplanet.com/fire-consumes-wtc-7-size-skyscraper-building-does-not-collapse.html
Along with other known building fires...
http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/analysis/compare/fires.html


"There are no credible reports of explosions from the lobby before the plane hit. That is a rumor that started circulating and spread over the internet and it keeps getting repeated and repeated."

My gosh, you never touched any of the articles I linked, huh?
You're the one starting a rumor now.
http://www.infowars.com/possibly-the-best-evidence-of-a-bomb-explosion-before-the-first-plane-hit/
This link provides a video that includes interviews (on that day itself!) of people who were there and what they attest to the sequence of events on that day itself.
It's almost like Muslims stating that "Christ's divinity was a rumor spread by Jesus's incompetent disciples and followers". *roll eyes*

"Now as far as the reports of explosions proceeding the collapse of the towers, as well as the video showing windows being blown out as the building collapsed."

Was I talking about the windows being blown AS the building collapsed? I said there were reports of explosions at the base of the towers even BEFORE the plane crashed..
[Red herring]

"Now imagine a 60,000 square foot column of air being compressed by the pancake effect of a concrete floor in under a second."

LOL
"Amazingly enough, just last summer NIST finally admitted that the explanation could not involve pancaking floors either, by saying “NIST’s findings do not support the “pancake theory” of collapse”. NIST’s findings, first reported in their final draft report of October 2004 and built over a period of several years, originally consisted of two considerably different stories for the two towers. But NIST modified this nine months later in their final, final draft report, giving just one story for both towers about “widely-dislodged” fireproofing and sagging floors pulling the external columns inward, with no mention of pancaking. Their final, final collapse initiation sequence, the essence of their report, is now known to be false in every aspect."
Quote from this link, with references at the end... http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=5071

What's more, as I've said earlier, how does the pancake theory explain the huge cloud of dust that covered almost all of New York that day?
How does it explain people finding pieces of human bones from the cloud of dust?
how does it explain the numerous steel beams that were projected outwards, far enough to hit buildings some blocks away?
how does it explain the disappearance of the twin towers' tougher/more durable inner core structure?

More articles about 'the pancake theory':
http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/september2007/110907_pancake_theory.htm
http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/february2007/120207Pancake.htm
http://www.infowars.com/articles/sept11/puzzling_suspension_of_incredulity_to_official_911_theory.htm

Zack_Tiang said...

"No Zack,the bible teaches there is nothing special about those that are saved by the GRACE OF GOD. It is not anything that we do, we are Called by the father, we do not call him. We are saved by faith through Christ, not by anything we do."

You are correct. And I know that very well too.
But what would an atheist say? Would an atheist accept that answer of yours? or will he say this?
"People who subscribe to the bible think that they are more important than what they are, and think that somehow they are so smart to figure out the path to salvation when the rest of the world can't seem to put the pieces together."
Think how this applies to this little debate between us.


"Well Zack it has been fun but I have spent way to much time on someone who wears tinfoil on their head..."

I've learned something today.. I've learned that people who used ad hominem attacks to make a point or conclusion can never argue or consider truth properly.

no, wait.. that's common sense. What am I talking about?


It's been fun 'talking' to you, Fat Man. In all seriousness, it has been.
I'm glad I was given the chance by God to share these information with you guys.

I hope my 'alternative views' will be considered and looked into.
There's a lot of truth to be found and trust me, if I could, I rather these be false, cause the implications of its truth is far scarier than Islam's 'peaceful' teachings.

I pray you come to know the truth behind the 'conspiracies' and set yourselves free from the deceptions that run freely in the mainstream media.
I still think 9-11 is the easiest of all these conspiracies to investigate and come to realize the reality of these conspiracies..

Investigate 9-11:
America's Number One Collapse Expert Thought WTC Bombed - http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/september2007/100907_wtc_bombed.htm
Physics Prof. Steven E. Jones - http://911research.wtc7.net/essays/jones/StevenJones.html
Scholars for 9-11 - http://www.scholarsfor911truth.org/
The 9-11 Truth movements - http://www.911truth.org/
Architects & Engineers for 9-11 Truth - http://cms.ae911truth.org/
Journals of 9-11 studies - http://www.journalof911studies.com/
David Ray Griffin – 911 and the American Empire - http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3538037502590699697
Patriots Question 9/11 - Responsible Criticism of the 9/11 Commission Report - http://www.patriotsquestion911.com/

Zack_Tiang said...

Fat Man
"Now if my responses to Zack seem un Christian to you, maybe they are maybe there not. But you need to show me in the bible where it says "Thou Shall be Stupid" or "Respect the fool"

I can show you were we are ordered not to be simple minded and stupid, and I can show you were we are to confront the fool other wise he will seem wise in his own eyes."

You are correct.. There is no verse to say 'Thou shalt be stupid'...

But there is a verse I want to point to you, and I'm sure others will agree with my choice of a verse.

Matthew 5:22 - English Standard Version (©2001)
[Jesus says] But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire.


And once again, I point you to Romans 12, Romans 14.

May God bless you, Fat Man (it always makes me feel like I'm insulting someone by calling him 'fat'.. lol), and may the truth set you free (John 8:32).

Zack_Tiang said...

John Lollard,

Very nice post... Respect to you.

Zack_Tiang said...

And oh... regarding Chuck Missler and Kent Hovind..

Those serious about bible study, I highly recommend Chuck Missler.
You can download audio & video files of some of his studies from here..
http://www.fromthemezzanine.com/storage/downloads.html#Missler
I especially recommend his 24hr Bible Study, 24hr Revelation Study, 24hr Genesis Study.
(Word of warning, Missler is known to overload his audience [me] with so much information that they [I] can't continue his study [after one 1-hr session of his study; especially his Revelation studies])
Chuck Missler's ministry site is www.khouse.org.
Lots of great materials there. =D


And Kent Hovind, I recommend him for those who wants to learn how Creation is more compatible with science and the bible, instead of the Darwinian/Evolution theory.
Also can find the videos of his seminars here,
http://www.fromthemezzanine.com/storage/downloads.html#KentHovind
Recommended to watch the 'Hovind Seminars'.. the CSE series are a more in-depth study into many of his arguments for Creation.
Hovind's site is here www.drdino.com; now led by his son, Eric Hovind.

yes, it is true Kent Hovind was sentenced to 10 years in prison for 'tax evasion'. I have my reasons to believe that he was not at fault but was framed/falsely charged, instead.
But nevermind, I believe he's enjoying his time in prison ministering to the prisoners.

Fernando said...

Dear Zach Tiang...

I really apreciatte your efford to believe in whate you want to beliebe aboutte whatte supposedelyy happen on 9/11, butt I trully habe to say thate your theories go a little out off streach spetially withe your presentation off only one sided opiniosn...

allow me, please, to present you an example:

you saide: «Even controlled demolition experts agree that only controlled demolition can explain the collapse»...

someone coulde also say: «Even controlled demolition experts agree that controlled demolition cannot explain the collapse»...

and presenting the opinion off some blokes ignoring all those opinions who deny, perhaps withe more insight, thate claim is not doing a lot off good to the good itself... I simply made an internet search and here is what I found: http://www.debunking911.com/

we can all grow upp withe the opinion off one anothers, butt only iff they are ponderated and treuth seaking...

may God bless you and heal all our pains...

Zack_Tiang said...

The chances of any site being false is equally probable... that includes www.debunking911.com, as well as mine, I might add.

so.. the best way to get the truth..

Examine the arguments presented given by both sides...

I trust my sources... I have seen the evidences and there's no other explanation that fits better.

You may think it's just 'opinions'... but these 'opinions' are due to their familiarity in the field...

"Reputable architects and engineers question how the steel buildings could collapse like that; Fact: these are the first and only three steel buildings ever to collapse like that due to fire damages.
http://cms.ae911truth.org/index.php/news/41-articles/288-ae911truth-structural-engineer-dismantles-the-nist-analysis-of-wtc-7.html
Even controlled demolition experts agree that only controlled demolition can explain the collapse..
http://www.infowars.com/top-construction-firm-wtc-destroyed-by-controlled-demolition/"

"Compare building 7's 'fire' and the Beijing hotel's fire...
Read the articles about how long the Beijing hotel's fire lasted and look at the picture of how the fire raged... then compare to how the fire 'raged' on Building 7.
Then tell me again how is it that "there is no comparison"?
here's a link with the photos...
http://www.prisonplanet.com/fire-consumes-wtc-7-size-skyscraper-building-does-not-collapse.html
Along with other known building fires...
http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/analysis/compare/fires.html"


If controlled demolition doesn't explain the circumstances of the towers' collapse...
Please help me understand how a plane (made of aluminium) hitting in the middle of a over-100-storey steel building can crumble it into a pile of ruble and debris of only a few storeys high, leaving almost no intact structure of the building original steel skeleton... with the help of fire fueled by jet fuel, which doesn't even burn anywhere close to the melting point of the steel beams (which was also coated with some form of flame-repellent coating).. not to mention, both WTC towers were built with 'plane colliding into it' in mind; hence the steel structure/architecture of the building.

And given that the fire managed to bring down the tower, explain how fire (or the pancake effect) can pulverize concrete into dust (causing the immense cloud of dust) as well as turn victims on the building into nothing but pieces of bone fragments (found in the dust piles from the cloud of dust), project steel beams several blocks away from the tower itself, destroy the WTC tower's known tougher/more durable inner core, and, not forgetting, leave the scorching heat and continued burning within the pile of rubles/debris for weeks [if I remembered correctly] (burning through the thick soles of the boots of those working through the rubles and even flows of molten steel are seen, caught on videos).


If you can help me understand how all this happen and show me evidence, then I can consider controlled demolition as not the only explanation. Thanks. =)

Zack_Tiang said...

Fernando said...
"I trully habe to say thate your theories go a little out off streach spetially withe your presentation off only one sided opiniosn..."

Isn't the mainstream media/politicians' spin on the 9/11 event also a 'presentation of only one-sided opinions'?

Just a thought.

Trust me.. I used to believe the 'official story' too and dismiss all these 'stupid conspiracy theories' (direct quote from myself).

If manmade global warming science can be proven to be fraudulent (by CLIMATEGATE).. why not 9/11?
If indeed 9/11's 'official story' is the truth and the '9/11 Commission Report' was a thorough investigation... why so many people (of different fields and expertise) disagreed with them and their inquiries are yet to be answered or them allowed to independently investigate the rubles/debris for themselves?
(Let's not forget, there are many 9/11 families also on this side of the 'opinions')


Not 'attack'ing or putting Fernando down,
just trying my best to share an alternative view of what's happening.
Isn't that what truth seeking is all about? =)

The Fat Man said...

Zack said...

"yes, it is true Kent Hovind was sentenced to 10 years in prison for 'tax evasion'. I have my reasons to believe that he was not at fault but was framed/falsely charged, instead."

Why am I not surprised on that comment.

Zack_Tiang said...

"Israeli Propaganda Exposed"
Mahdi Darius Nazemroaya
Global Research
June 10, 2010
http://www.prisonplanet.com/israel-doctored-the-evidence-the-gaza-freedom-flotilla-and-al-qaeda.html

Don't trust this site? Well.. here's the article's origin, Global Research: http://globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=19572

References of the news claims are all at the end of the article. =)

The Fat Man said...

Zack and John...

The problem with dealing with Parnoid conspiracy nuts like Zack is that no matter how much reality you confront them with the delusion the paranoid delusion will just morph and switch into a different form.

Zack I'm sorry I picked you up and played with you. But I honestly do not have the energy or the desire to chase you down the rabbit hole of conspiracy theories any further. To be honest I don't see that pit ever ending.

But I will leave you with a few quotes from Osama Abdullah. Maybe you guys should get together you seem to share some of the same idea's. If your not already a Muslim perhaps you should look into it as a religion for you.

You definitely meet the maximum IQ requirements for Islam.

Well enjoy Osma's comments. I am putting you back down now and climbing out of the rabbit hole you seem to be stuck in.

America has become a great satan! America is ruled by evil. Yes, the freedom of speech is something good to have, but this personal lugxury is zero to me when this great satan supports evil throughout the world. I am not looking at it from a personal perspective. I am rather looking at it from 30,000 feet above the ground. If you do that, then you'll get my point. AFTER THE 9/11 CONSIPIRACY THAT CAUSED FOR 1.5 MILLION INNOCENT AFGHANIS AND IRAQIES TO DIE from it, I have lost all loyalty and allegence to the USA. I am trying to fight the evil of this country by converting its citizens to Islam. This is the only way that we can defeat the satan that is ruling America. I am fully aware that many of the American people are nice, humble and very generous. But like I said, if you look at it from 30,000 feet above the ground, then you'll get my point.

2- The USA is increasingly becoming more and more evil and full of consipracies, racism and bias.

"America, now, is a republic that is ruled and owned by the zionists. .. This has to be combated through Islam. America's freedom with Islam's Morality would make a perfect society in my estimation."

"**THE BLESSING OF AMERICA TO ANYONE MAKES HIM A SUSPECT! When America blesses someone, you can bet your bottom dollar that that someone is a rotten bastard!"

And my disagreements and resentment of the evil that the US Government does and has is something that actually many Americans agree with me on.

Zack_Tiang said...

"What Do The Sears Tower; WTC, and Terror Drills Have In Common?"
Shepard Ambellas and Alex Thomas
Intel Hub
June 10, 2010
http://www.infowars.com/what-do-the-sears-tower-wtc-and-terror-drills-have-in-common/

Have a read.

Quote, end of the article, "Remember that on September 11, 2001, NORAD was conducting a war games drill that simulated planes flying into towers. There is at the very least, a very eerie correlation with the upcoming terror drills that will be conducted in Chicago from June 13 through June 17. This terror drill is slated to be a full scale event carried out over a five day period and will include a simulated airplane crash, terror attack, and the release of a bio weapon.

Just a thought."

Let's us see what happens the next some days; within the period stated. =)

Zack_Tiang said...

Fat Man said..
"Why am I not surprised on that comment."

Why am I not surprised by your comment? =)

Well, just fyi, I know of some of Kent's enemies that have been chasing him and trying to stop his 'creation propaganda'. But then, it's all my opinions without much evidence.
Hence, I didn't present them here.

Fat Man said...
"...no matter how much reality you confront them with the delusion the paranoid delusion will just morph and switch into a different form."

Please tell me what 'reality' was put before me and then I 'morph and switch into a different form'?
I'd really like to know when have I not been consistent with my arguments/statements.

Fat Man said..
"Zack I'm sorry I picked you up and played with you. "

Oh my... is this going along the same line as a 'Holier than thou' attitude??

Fat Man said..
"But I will leave you with a few quotes from Osama Abdullah. Maybe you guys should get together you seem to share some of the same idea's."

Guess you never read my comments regarding what he said in the same thread of those exact quotes.
Nevermind. I forgive you for your ignorance.

Fat Man said...
"If your not already a Muslim perhaps you should look into it as a religion for you.

You definitely meet the maximum IQ requirements for Islam."

Aww... Now you really hurt my feelings, Fat Man...

"Judging Others" - Matthews 7:1-6
[Jesus said] "[1] Do not judge, or you too will be judged. [2] For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

[3] Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? [4] How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? [5] You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.

[6] Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces."


Hmm... Fat Man would probably think of me as the pig.. but then... have I 'turned & tore him to pieces'? Or was it the other way around? ^_^||

The Fat Man said...

Zack Said...

"If manmade global warming science can be proven to be fraudulent (by CLIMATEGATE).. why not 9/11?"

I know I know I said I was putting you down but I figured I would give you one last chance.

I as my father and his father before him grew up in Chicago. When I was a kid every winter Lake Michagan would freeze over. Sometimes we used to walk on the Lake and slide down 4 foot waves off of Montros Harbor.

My dad can not remember a time until recent when the Lake did not freeze in the winter, my grandfather before him also used to tell tales of walking out to the Water Cribs a mile or so off shore to do some great ice fishing.

The last time the Lake froze up was in 1994, the last time it completely froze over was in 1979.

Year after year after year more and more sail boats are staying longer in the water, passed the fall and into December.

The planet is warming, the causes for the warming are a matter of debate. Are we humans causing it, or accelerating it, or is this a natural thing like in the past. Are we just warming before another ice age etc...

And now that is it.

The Fat Man said...

One more thing. Don't get me wrong I am a strong supporter of Global Warming.

I love walking down Michagan Avenue when its a Balmy 52 degrees in January

Fernando said...

Hi Zack_Tiang said...

glad for your insights...

I never felt you were trying to putt me down...

and I agree thate the truthe can be beast searched and found withe the cooperation off diferent points off view...

Climategate is a sad story, butt from one bad story you cannot imply thate other story is also bad... this latter one to bee bad it has to be so from, its own realitty...

thats one fault from your reasoning: you cannot compaire apples withe oranges: you habe to know the structural elements off the apple and off the orange and study how woulde they behave in similar circunstances...

I do not doubt -- after making the opposite journey you did (I ounce believed thate the 9/11 was a fraud) after reading the reports and study the structural elements off the buildings involved in the 9/11 tragedy -- thate there was no fraude whatesoever...

may God help you in your quest for the truthe...

Zack_Tiang said...

Fat Man,

Well, I'm glad that you're aware of the possibility that man is not causing the global warming.

But I think you might have not fully understood what happened with this CLIMATEGATE incident and what it's about. =)


Fernando,

Well... CLIMATEGATE is just a start (let's just say it started here)... Then several other 'gates' happened... revealing a worldwide fraudulent practice.
And I;m not using CLIMATEGATE to disprove Manmade Global Warming as a whole... but I'm using it to show that the science behind manmade global warming has been fraudulent on a large scale (since the IPCC is considered practically the big kahuna of manmade global warming)

This article (although by now outdated, as there've been even more information to add to it) has a collection of articles that talked about CLIMATEGATE:
http://www.infowars.com/climategate-for-dummies/


The apple vs orange thing.. I'm not sure you're still referring to the CLIMATEGATE or the 9-11 WTC tower thing...

Either way, the questions asked about 9-11 are yet to be answered. So... yeah. hehe.

"I do not doubt -- after making the opposite journey you did (I ounce believed thate the 9/11 was a fraud) after reading the reports and study the structural elements off the buildings involved in the 9/11 tragedy -- thate there was no fraude whatesoever..."

May I know what is it you thought was fraud.. and what did you learn that changed your opinion?

Odo said...

Hello Zack,

The journalism you present seems to contradict itself. You posted a link before which stated pictures from the Israelis were doctored (which is now a moot claim, but your website still has the article up; it did turn out however that Reuters doctored images and cropped OUT knives the 'peace activists' were holding). The article you JUST presented acknowledges those pictures in order to make a false point about how the Israelis are now categorizing everything as weapons, it states: "Even vests with clear Red Crescent symbols used by doctors, medics, and humanitarian workers of the International Red Cross and Red Crescent were presented by Israeli officials..." - - if im not mistaken, they are talking about the same photos presented as doctored fakes in this article:

http://www.infowars.com/misleading-photos-used-by-israeli-ministry-of-foreign-affairs-to-justify-killing-activists/

So my question, why are they using supposedly fake pictures as evidence that Israel will present ANYTHING as evidence if those pictures are fakes from the get go? They would just be fake pictures propagated by Israel, but all of a sudden they are used as real photos Israel took of real objects just to play hurt? Seems really inconsistent – so which is it, are they fake or not?

(I hope you did some looking and saw for yourself the metadata claim is bogus like I pointed out earlier – the same claim which is up on that site and sadly will probably stay up)

Reuters doctored images:

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/reuters-under-fire-for-removing-weapons-blood-from-images-of-gaza-flotilla-1.294780

Also you asked earlier about the IHH (Insani Yardim Vakfi) – if you actually watched the video on this thread you would have a good starting point as to where to look, but you did not watch it. One needs to spend only a few minutes researching to find that IHH has terrorist ties. This article only mentions it briefly but notice who mentions it! The Turkish government!:

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3902451,00.html

(the internet is literally saturated with articles describing the IHH-terrorist link from every source imaginable – I just picked a few papers, but a cursory search turns up over 4000 hits :)

And here is another interesting article I read a bit ago pertaining to the flotilla:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704575304575296122698817774.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

And another...

http://www.buffalonews.com/2010/06/08/1075569/israels-blockade.html

And another...

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/opinion/editorials/lying_with_photos_rzk6vz5XbhTSZrjLCo6rGP

And another...

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/681fae96-7195-11df-8eec-00144feabdc0.html

Odo said...

Zack, the Twin Towers were over one thousand feet high. You do realize that when a flying plane traveling at over 500 miles per hour, weighing over 200 tons, carrying 60 tons of fuel containing ten times the energy per gram as TNT, hits this building the structural integrity of the WHOLE building is impacted, right? I have actually spoken with a few structural engineers (and students) about this matter a WHILE ago; I got the same response– the buildings went down just as they would after being hit by a giant plane. The big dust cloud happens after concrete is pulverized by falling over 100 stories and at the same time is crushed by tons of concrete falling from the top. You ever notice the giant cloud that forms when someone is jack-hammering concrete?

The same conspiracy theories you present were already repeated over and over, literally hours after the planes hit, not to mention the websites which started popping up days after.. Humankind has a tendency to jump to the imaginative concerning any occurrence in history. I mean any occurrence! Even the Black Death, there was plenty of conspiracy surrounding the Black Death and the Jews.

And BTW – I'm just wondering,,,,how come you post on this thread without even having watched the video this thread is about? Isn't that a little disrespectful – kind of like a Muslim debating the Bible without having read it, or a Christian debating the Quran without having read it? Then you come on and advertise your personal views and your favorite (biased) website on something completely unrelated to the thread, over and over. Fernando demonstrated something interesting; also the website he posted completely and utterly debunks every-single-one of your 911 claims, and is begging YOU for HOURS of enjoyable and insightful reading! Maybe if you actually watched all the videos, then you would make your own opinion instead of taking on Alex's theology.

I think someone made this point to you a few days ago: you don't need to completely agree with everything someone says, but what they say may still contain certain truths, even if you don't agree with all of it. It seems to me like you think this Alex guy is good news, therefore you can listen to EVERYTHING he says, and Beck is bad news, therefore you don't listen to anything he says (in fact you avoid it). It doesn't work that way, as much as everyone would like it to – we have to learn how to discern the truths 4 ourselves.

And as for 'shot four times in the back of the head' – quite frankly, people who have never seen a single second of live combat shouldn't speak so loudly about their views (or ignorant civilian theories) on what happens during combat (im talking about the weak reporting)

(P>S> it is my opinion your type of 911 conspiracy mentality is actually contributing to the building of the mega-mosque in New York)

Zack_Tiang said...

Odo,

Yes, I am aware that the claim that those photos were outdated are false, and I'll gladly be corrected of that.
But do notice that although the articles appear in the same site, they're of different sources.

The one with the false photo claims is written by someone from Infowars.com..
The other is from Global Research. Different writers.

So I guess the infowars.com writer jumped the gun and posted his article up too quickly, and maybe he's not come across or been informed of his error yet.


And I've seen those photos that excluded the knife shot from another blog.
As I pointed out in the other blog, notice the knife is clean.
And think about it.. if these 'peaceful' activists are really 'murderous' bunch... why has he (holding a knife and doesn't seem restrained by anyone) chose to just stand idly by while there seems to be a couple of people 'dragging'/'subduing' the commando person?
(And even in the photo shown in your link, the guy was holding the knife by the tips of his fingers.. not very menacing)
Just posing my opinion regarding those knife photos.

Actually, I don't recall asking anything about IHH.
I supposed you were referring to this statement of mine.. "I can't seem to find the article talking about the supposed link between flotilla and Hamas, etc."
I was actually referring to another article that I came across some days before that post that was talking about the 'supposed' link between flotilla, Hamas, etc..
I wasn't asking about IHH.

Zack_Tiang said...

So.. ok.. suppose your explanation for the collapse is accepted... How does it explain the practical disappearance of the stronger inner core steel structure?
How does it explain bone fragments found in the dust left behind (atop buildings) of hundreds of victims that never escaped the building as it collapsed?
How does it explain the sight of hot molten flow of sorts that were present beneath the pile of rubles/debris which lasted weeks before finally been put completely out? (and it is known that rescue workers working amongst the ruble had the soles of their boots burned through cause of the heat)


And this is just about the WTC Towers.. what about building 7? What about the plane that managed to crash into the Pentagon; without any response from the Air Force and the air defense system that surrounds the Pentagon?
What about the other plane that failed and crash near a town somewhere (I don remember the name, sorry), leaving behind two crash sites, and not to mention the lack of evidences of a plane crashing there in the first place?

Sorry, 9/11 is one of my favorite topics to talk about. ^_^


"And BTW – I'm just wondering,,,,how come you post on this thread without even having watched the video this thread is about? Isn't that a little disrespectful "

Regardless whether I watched the videos of Glen or not, I'd still share these articles... Why? Cause "I'm just sharing alternative views".


"Fernando demonstrated something interesting; also the website he posted completely and utterly debunks every-single-one of your 911 claim"

Haha... I kinda doubt that, but I'll see when I spend the time through the site. Thanks. =)


"And as for 'shot four times in the back of the head' – quite frankly, people who have never seen a single second of live combat shouldn't speak so loudly about their views (or ignorant civilian theories) on what happens during combat (im talking about the weak reporting)"

Well, I'll totally agree with your statement... if only one victim was shot 4 times in the back.
The autopsies mentioned in the article I posted stated most of the victims had multiple shots to the back... and if I remember correctly, at close range.


And you are correct to say "It doesn't work that way, as much as everyone would like it to – we have to learn how to discern the truths 4 ourselves."
I agree totally. That's why I share these articles.
Reason why I'm not doing that, at least not as much as you guys, with regards to this event is because I'm not as interested with this incident as I would with, say, 9/11 or climate change.

But I have a habit of sharing what I find when it's a related topic. And often times, I don't insert my own opinion, but just drop the link to the article with my mind thinking 'let's have these people go through the article and see what they think'. =)
Sorry if I may have offended anyone with my action.

(PS: I kinda doubt that, but then, we're both viewing this from really different perspectives. God bless.)

Zack_Tiang said...

Odo said...
"Zack, the Twin Towers were over one thousand feet high. You do realize that when a flying plane traveling at over 500 miles per hour, weighing over 200 tons, carrying 60 tons of fuel containing ten times the energy per gram as TNT, hits this building the structural integrity of the WHOLE building is impacted, right?"

And as I've already said, the builders/architects built the twin towers with 'plane colliding into it' in mind. And if I'm not mistaken, I believe the WTC tower has ever survived a plane crash before, but correct me if i'm wrong; maybe I'm mistaken with another plane-building crash.

And your explanation doesn't answer how the "tougher/more durable inner core" is thoroughly destroyed too.
It is a well-known architecture of the WTC Twin Towers; the stronger inner steel core structure.


"I have actually spoken with a few structural engineers (and students) about this matter a WHILE ago; I got the same response– the buildings went down just as they would after being hit by a giant plane."

Well, I have a numerous sources quoting engineers, architects and demolition experts saying otherwise. And they also showed their evidence for their 'opinions'.


"The big dust cloud happens after concrete is pulverized by falling over 100 stories and at the same time is crushed by tons of concrete falling from the top."

Well, good explanation, no prize though.
Concrete falling from top and onwards would mean it'll have to go through over a hundred floors.. which would mean there'll be some delay as one floor lands atop another, and then so on; possibly picking up speed later on, though it shouldn't really.

Count how fast the tower crumbled to the ground, and you'll get around 10 seconds (for both towers)... That's practically free fall speed - meaning the building fell down as if there was nothing beneath it as it collapsed.
Nope, concrete floors weren't landing on top of one another as you explained, which actually aligns with the 'pancake effect' which, as I've quoted, has been rejected, even by NIST.


"The same conspiracy theories you present were already repeated over and over, literally hours after the planes hit, not to mention the websites which started popping up days after.. Humankind has a tendency to jump to the imaginative concerning any occurrence in history. I mean any occurrence!"

I agree. People will do all sorts of initial speculations as an event unfolds. Then these initial speculations can only last for as long as it is not proven false by some event that happened or will happen, or by the evidences left from the event, and such.

And the reports of witnesses (on that day itself) that claim they heard explosions (a lot regarding explosions at the basement of the towers, including William Rodriguez himself, and some even before the plane crash) are still unexplained by the official story.

Odo said...

Hello Zack,

But do notice that although the articles appear in the same site, they're of different sources.

That doesn't matter; your site still used the article and thus contradicts itself, putting ALL its credibility into question.

maybe he's not come across or been informed of his error yet.

Maybe your right! And since this is one of your favorite sites, maybe you should be the one to inform the writer of his error – but I highly doubt the article will be ever taken down, just like the debunked 911 conspiracies.

As I pointed out in the other blog, notice the knife is clean. And think about it.. if these 'peaceful' activists are really 'murderous' bunch... why has he (holding a knife and doesn't seem restrained by anyone) chose to just stand idly by while there seems to be a couple of people 'dragging'/'subduing' the commando person? (And even in the photo shown in your link, the guy was holding the knife by the tips of his fingers.. not very menacing)Just posing my opinion regarding those knife photos.

Again, ignorant civilian theories about what goes on in combat. It is a picture, what do you mean standing by idly? How do you know he wasn't moving at that moment, a picture doesn't show movement. And why would he be restrained by anyone? Could it just soooo happen that after stabbing he moved away for the photo-shoot? How do you know he wasn't restrained - all you can see is the guys hand. And what does a clean knife have anything to do with anything! You ever seen a 'beheading' video? I'll let you in on a little secret; they wipe the blade, sometimes after every cut. By the tips of his fingers?! Listen to how weak that sounds...one of the pictures shows the knife being held with a full grip, the other picture looks like the guy is in the middle of adjusting the knife in his hand (actually the way he is holding it is a knife throwing grip also).

"I can't seem to find the article talking about the supposed link between flotilla and Hamas, etc." I was actually referring to another article that I came across some days before that post that was talking about the 'supposed' link between flotilla, Hamas, etc..
I wasn't asking about IHH.


Yes and I provided you those links, because the connection isn't between the 'flotilla' and Hamas, it's between the IHH 'activists' who were on board of one of the flotilla vessels and Hamas. Hamas is the connection with IHH (and more importantly, Turkey)

And as I've already said, the builders/architects built the twin towers with 'plane colliding into it' in mind.

As much as we would like to think that we are prepared for everything, we aren't. There is no way the architect of the twin towers could have foresaw what was to come – the ultimate goal of these buildings wasn't to withstand the impact of a plane, it wasn't even the penultimate, it was probably one of the last things in mind – planes don't just usually fly into buildings. Besides, I don't think these types of planes were even around when the towers were built.

And your explanation doesn't answer how the "tougher/more durable inner core" is thoroughly destroyed too.

I did not provide you with any explanation. I simply presented you with the facts, mainly that a plane carrying 60 tons of fuel crashed into the middle of a giant building, the WHOLE integrity of the structure is impacted. Doesn't matter if it's the more 'durable' inner core - the WHOLE integrity of the building.

Well, I have a numerous sources quoting engineers, architects and demolition experts saying otherwise. And they also showed their evidence for their 'opinions'.

Money money money makes the world go round! You know how much money those guys make off of 911 truth-ers?

Odo said...

Hello again Zack,

Well, good explanation, no prize though. Concrete falling from top and onwards would mean it'll have to go through over a hundred floors.. which would mean there'll be some delay as one floor lands atop another, and then so on; possibly picking up speed later on, though it shouldn't really.

Count how fast the tower crumbled to the ground, and you'll get around 10 seconds (for both towers)... That's practically free fall speed - meaning the building fell down as if there was nothing beneath it as it collapsed. Nope, concrete floors weren't landing on top of one another as you explained, which actually aligns with the 'pancake effect' which, as I've quoted, has been rejected, even by NIST.


I spent a good hour on the site Fernando provided, last night. Every single one of these 911 claims is debunked. And I did not say anything about 'floors' as you imply, I just said concrete. And yes, concrete was falling on top of concrete as the tower crumbled down.

Then these initial speculations can only last for as long as it is not proven false by some event that happened or will happen, or by the evidences left from the event, and such.

Ah I see, 'evidence' – well that's interesting since nobody has ever presented evidence to the contrary of the Jews poisoning the wells during the time of the Black Death. Maybe it did happen huh? And what about those Christians that were accused by the Pagans of drinking blood? And there are still plenty of people out there (World Muslim Congress) who engage in the 'blood-libel' and profess matzot was made out of Christian baby blood. What kind of evidence would you show these conspiracy nutters that they haven't seen before?

And the reports of witnesses (on that day itself) that claim they heard explosions (a lot regarding explosions at the basement of the towers, including William Rodriguez himself, and some even before the plane crash) are still unexplained by the official story.

No they are explained by modern science, mainly psychology, which explains people under major duress can experience very weird things and false memories. If you were to ask a whole bunch of people (who were on the scene) about what happened during the attack they would give you a bunch of differing stories, from their own perspectives, that wouldn't necessarily coincide with each other or what actually happened. I think Fat Man had a good explanation as to why people heard 'pops' and 'bangs' and 'explosions' – wouldn't an elevator crashing down a few hundred stories cause a loud 'explosion'. There are also 'witnesses' who say JFK was shot by aliens, or that they saw Elvis and 2pac hanging out by the hotdog stand.

Odo said...

Zack,

So.. ok.. suppose your explanation for the collapse is accepted... How does it explain the practical disappearance of the stronger inner core steel structure? How does it explain bone fragments found in the dust left behind (atop buildings) of hundreds of victims that never escaped the building as it collapsed? How does it explain the sight of hot molten flow of sorts that were present beneath the pile of rubles/debris which lasted weeks before finally been put completely out? (and it is known that rescue workers working amongst the ruble had the soles of their boots burned through cause of the heat)

And this is just about the WTC Towers.. what about building 7? What about the plane that managed to crash into the Pentagon; without any response from the Air Force and the air defense system that surrounds the Pentagon? What about the other plane that failed and crash near a town somewhere (I don remember the name, sorry), leaving behind two crash sites, and not to mention the lack of evidences of a plane crashing there in the first place?


Again, I did not give you any explanation! I just pointed out the bare facts, and the cloud which forms when someone is jack-hammering concrete. Again, all of your 911 claims are debunked on the site provided earlier – and your questions sound like you're going out on a limb trying to make something fit where it doesn't fit.

Regardless whether I watched the videos of Glen or not, I'd still share these articles... Why? Cause "I'm just sharing alternative views".

My point exactly!- Muslims present me with endless 'alternative views' on the Bible without having read it, but the thing is, they DON'T EVEN KNOW THE BIBLES VIEW. Similarly, you choose to chime in w/o even having heard or seen the 'view' in question! You didn't even take the time to see what the view is, i.e. un-objective.

Well, I'll totally agree with your statement... if only one victim was shot 4 times in the back. The autopsies mentioned in the article I posted stated most of the victims had multiple shots to the back... and if I remember correctly, at close range.

Again, ignorant civilian theories concerning combat. I can present you with one scenario out of a hundred: a soldier is on the ground surrounded by menacing 'activists' inflicting a bloody beating. The call to switch to live ammo goes over the talkie; another soldier switches to live ammo, shouts for all the aggressors to step away from the soldier on the ground but is instead confronted by a few 'peace' activists. The soldier shoots frantically at the people charging him and at the people beating his fallen partner to a bloody pulp, the 'activists' standing over the fallen soldier are hit in the back multiple times as the other soldier is sweeping his rifle back and forth shooting, he aims high not to hit his partner who is on the ground.

I agree with Barean, youve been had brother!

May God make you stumble face first into the Truth!

The Fat Man said...

Zack Said...

So.. ok.. suppose your explanation for the collapse is accepted... How does it explain the practical disappearance of the stronger inner core steel structure?

Zack you do realize that your whole question is a fallacy.

The Twin Towers when they were desinged and built in the late 1960's was a modern marvel. Because unlike Sky Scrappers before that relied on inner steal or concrete columns to support the structure. This building had the load bearing on outside. They built a steal exo skeleton. So there was no "stronger inner core steel structure?"

Secondly the first time that Muslims tried to take it down, they drove a van or truck filled with Amoninium Nitrate and detotnated it next to a column in the parking lot. The Column for reasons stated above did not support the building only the parking lot. So even if there was explosives planted in the basement then all it would of done was take down the parking decks.

Also from the thousands of video's of that day, in everyone that show's the collapse it collapse from the top down not from the bottom up. As would be the case if the building used inner support columns and if those columns had been blown away.

The Fat Man said...

Zack one more thing. You do realize that most of the nonsense you post is based on initial reports, on initial statements etc... An example is your qauestion on WT 7. It was initially thought and reported that the building recieved light damamage. However this was not the case.

From Popular Mechanics.
FACT: Many conspiracy theorists point to FEMA's preliminary report, which said there was relatively light damage to WTC 7 prior to its collapse. With the benefit of more time and resources, NIST researchers now support the working hypothesis that WTC 7 was far more compromised by falling debris than the FEMA report indicated. "The most important thing we found was that there was, in fact, physical damage to the south face of building 7," NIST's Sunder tells PM. "On about a third of the face to the center and to the bottom—approximately 10 stories—about 25 percent of the depth of the building was scooped out." NIST also discovered previously undocumented damage to WTC 7's upper stories and its southwest corner.

So we have heavy damange to the South Face of the Building that 25 percent of depth of the building was scoped out.

This was a example of progressive collapse. a process in which the failure of parts of a structure ultimately creates strains that cause the entire building to come down. Videos of the fall of WTC 7 show cracks, or "kinks," in the building's facade just before the two penthouses disappeared into the structure, one after the other. The entire building fell in on itself, with the slumping east side of the structure pulling down the west side in a diagonal collapse.

In an unusual design, the columns near the visible kinks were carrying exceptionally large loads, roughly 2000 sq. ft. of floor area for each floor. "What our preliminary analysis has shown is that if you take out just one column on one of the lower floors," Sunder notes, "it could cause a vertical progression of collapse so that the entire section comes down."

Also trusses on the fifth and seventh floors were designed to transfer loads from one set of columns to another. With columns on the south face apparently damaged, high stresses would likely have been communicated to columns on the building's other faces, thereby exceeding their load-bearing capacities.

And finally Second, a fifth-floor fire burned for up to 7 hours. "There was no firefighting in WTC 7," Sunder says. Investigators believe the fire was fed by tanks of diesel fuel that many tenants used to run emergency generators. Most tanks throughout the building were fairly small, but a generator on the fifth floor was connected to a large tank in the basement via a pressurized line. Says Sunder: "Our current working hypothesis is that this pressurized line was supplying fuel [to the fire] for a long period of time."

So that is the FACT ZACK. THATS THE REALITY. I have no doubt that your paranoid conspiracy delusion will just morph somewhere else each one getting more and more elaborate.

Zack_Tiang said...

Sigh...

To Odo,

"That doesn't matter; your site still used the article and thus contradicts itself, putting ALL its credibility into question."

The bible has contradictions in them or supposed contradictions.. some due to copious errors, even some articles in Answering-Islam.org says that; aka human error.
Did that do anything to the credibility of the bible?

This site/group like any other group/site run by humans will make mistakes/errors in what they write/come across.
can you really blame them?

So, one error made on one topic discredits the whole site/group that covers numerous topics?
Following that logic, then the Muslims have every right to accuse the bible of those 'human' errors.


You explain very well about ways people can hold a knife (or that person had hold the knife). Funny that in all photos of that person with the knife, all of them, the knife was clean, not one of them showed any sign of a blood stain of any kind.

"Could it just soooo happen that after stabbing he moved away for the photo-shoot?"

Again, if that [particular] guy was a murderous activist as so implied by most articles.. well, again, the knife is clean on film.. and there's no report of any dead commando (so far I've read). how about the photo of some activists helping out a bloody commando who was sitting down? It was shown in that Global Research site I linked.
How about an interview with one of the activist (a veteran of sorts) who said they disarmed the commandos to prevent any more killing and only unloaded their weapons... how about that?


And thank you for the information about IHH then. Though I have very little knowledge regarding Hamas and the going-ons in that part of the world in the first place.


"planes don't just usually fly into buildings. Besides, I don't think these types of planes were even around when the towers were built."

Yes, I agree with your statements. But that doesn't mean the smaller scale plane crashes into buildings can't help with the calculations for the bigger ones.

"Money money money makes the world go round! You know how much money those guys make off of 911 truth-ers?"

Hahah.. it works both ways. Why don't you find out how much Larry Silverstein (owner of WTC Towers) have earned from insurance for that incident; for each tower? If i remember correctly, there were statements about him buying those insurances not very long before 9-11 or upgrading it or something. Building 7 was (inadvertently) admittedly 'pulled' (Quote from Silverstein himself).
how about the banks or some people in high places who sold their stocks on the airports/wtc towers, just in time before the incidents?
For all we know, he or the bankers or government or whoever could be paying these architects/engineers/their organizations to say these things. (If what Alex and others are claiming about the Bilderberg group are, even at least near, true, then it'd be a very easy feat, due to their very wide connection and unlimited flow of money) Or they could just be simply ignorant.
I don know, but either way, money works both ways.

Zack_Tiang said...

To Odo again,

"as you imply, I just said concrete. And yes, concrete was falling on top of concrete as the tower crumbled down."

Ok, fine. Not the floor itself, but concrete.. part of the floor or ceiling. Still means there should've been resistance or delay with each storey falling atop each other (in which case, the resistance should *stop* the collapsing and instead, the falling debris should've fell or rolled off the side of the building and at least leave some storeys of the bottom of the tower rather intact, no?). Doesn't explain the 10 second [free]fall from the top of the tower to the ground.


[Odo's comment regarding black death and baby blood]

Well, those can be attributed to mere ignorance on their parts or just plain stubbornness.
However, these guys are also engineers themselves and I'm sure both sides have competently done their own researches. (unless either one actually hasn't. 'My' engineers/architects have shown some of their research and their reasoning to their claim; I watched through videos. I've not yet spend the time to look at Fernando's link).


"No they are explained by modern science, mainly psychology"

Wow... how powerful is this 'psychology' thing... That victims of the buildings (both from upstairs and also [especially] the basement), pedestrians, onlookers, firemen, policemen, news reporters, and even the cameras (not cameramen) filming there could all suffer from this same problem... and also give the practically same account of when those explosions happened.
Wow.. explains alot. Thanks.
No wonder there were 500 witnesses who claimed to have seen, touch, ate with Jesus after He died.


Elevator crashing... yeah, it might cause some loud noise (though can be argued that it wouldn't sound convincingly like explosions; plus I've never actually came across any testimony mentioning of an elevator crashing/crashed to the lobby, not saying there never was, just saying I've never came across any)...

Problem is... some witnesses (firemen) claimed the sound went 'boom boom boom boom', like consecutive explosions. Unless all elevators happened to crash to the lobby at exact equal period of seconds from one another... I don't think it answers the firemen's testimonies.

Again, there are people who claim Jesus is Michael the Archangel, and people who claims Mary is God. It doesn't destroy the credibility of every single theory that goes against the 'official' story.
(Tupac is an interesting controversy I find, honestly. Though I never chased after it. Haha)

Zack_Tiang said...

"and your questions sound like you're going out on a limb trying to make something fit where it doesn't fit. "

No, they're not. I'm just trying to show there're more questions that I can ask, even if I accepted some of your reasoning.
I'm sure some of the debaters of this site and their Muslims opponents have done the same kind of arguments before.


"Muslims present me with endless 'alternative views' on the Bible without having read it"

Thing is.. They're out to disprove the Bible; not just to share alternative views.
i.e. "Hey, there's this prob in the bible. The bible is false!" vs "hey, there's this prob in the bible. What do you think?"

In case you're still unaware, I'm 'doing' the latter. (not the 'questioning the bible' part. of course.)


"The soldier shoots frantically at the people charging him and at the people beating his fallen partner"

Well, that assumes all the dead were killed at very closely the same time and basically the same location. Though the article didn't mention where the dead bodies were actually located... With an event of this scale, I am quite doubtful most of them were killed at the same location and at nearly the same time, or even close to your example of a possible situation.
Also, no witness testimony that I've seen explains of a similar scene.
Such a scene or similar was also not evident in any of the videos I've seen.. I'm sure someone would've easily spotted it already by now, given the numerous videos showing the 'peaceful' protesting.

As far as I know, most of these videos often start with the first commando dropping and boarding the ship and then immediately got intercepted by some activists. I've yet seen any video that shows before the commandos boarding; only some testimonies, but those mentioned of shooting and firing being heard before the commandos came to board the ship.


"I agree with Barean, you've been had brother!

May God make you stumble face first into the Truth!"

I can almost claim "The kettle calling the pot 'black'", but you probably disagree.

Anyways... Thank you for your concern and thank you for the last statement. I pray He does... along with everyone else, anyone at all.

Odo said...

OK Zack, I saw what you have written, I hope you check out the site that debunks all of 911 your claims one day, and I just want to comment on a few...humble 'points' of yours, and I'm done:

"That doesn't matter; your site still used the article and thus contradicts itself, putting ALL its credibility into question." The bible has contradictions in them or supposed contradictions.. some due to copious errors, even some articles in Answering-Islam.org says that; aka human error. Did that do anything to the credibility of the bible?

This is a completely false analogy and I guess a formal fallacy all wrapped into one. If multiple attestations from different authors wouldn't have any contradictions, then I would be worried. Your site is one source that decided to present false information and contradict itself in its pro-Palestinian efforts. Apples and Oranges.

Wow... how powerful is this 'psychology' thing... That victims of the buildings (both from upstairs and also [especially] the basement), pedestrians, onlookers, firemen, policemen, news reporters, and even the cameras (not cameramen) filming there could all suffer from this same problem... and also give the practically same account of when those explosions happened.Wow.. explains alot. Thanks. No wonder there were 500 witnesses who claimed to have seen, touch, ate with Jesus after He died.

Again! COMPLETE false analogy and formal fallacy. What do shards of concrete falling on people, people jumping out of 100 stories using plastic bags as parachutes, people burning to death, people suffocating to death, have ANYTHING remotely similar to Jesus' disciples or His resurrection? I think experiencing the glory of Christ would leave one in a completely different mental state compared to a horrific attack on thousands of people, don't you? Learn ANALYSIS Zachery. Apples and Oranges.

In case you're still unaware, I'm 'doing' the latter. (not the 'questioning the bible' part. of course.)

Ur bias has been demonstrated, just the way you presented these 'views' is thick with it (u probably do not see this, (oh that crazy psychology!) Difference is, I know I'm biased; you seem to think you are the standard of objectivity and your 'alternative views' are unbiased. Quoting our dear brother in Christ (I hope this is OK with Fernando):

you [Zack] saide: «Even controlled demolition experts agree that only controlled demolition can explain the collapse»...

someone coulde also say: «Even controlled demolition experts agree that controlled demolition cannot explain the collapse»...

So? Just your demonstration of 'alternative views' is skewed from the beginning.

Well, that assumes all the dead were killed at very closely the same time and basically the same location. Though the article didn't mention where the dead bodies were actually located... With an event of this scale, I am quite doubtful most of them were killed at the same location and at nearly the same time, or even close to your example of a possible situation.

What are you talking about!? Look at how you completely overanalyze and blow out of proportion with these crazy theories (trying for it?). I would become COMPLETELY surprised if in fact those people had only been shot ONE time - doesn't usually happen unless they are on their knees being executed! If they had been shot one time, then THAT would NOT fit with the events! THE GUN IDF USES IS CALLED AN UZI – THIS DEADLY WEAPON FIRES OVER 1,200 ROUNDS PER MINUTE, 20 PER SECOND! – Think about it!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9p5QT91QYs

PEACE

Odo said...

Sorry, I can't see if I did or not now, but I think I wrote "DEMONSTRATION of 'alternative views'". I meant PRESENTATION.

Zack_Tiang said...

"From Popular Mechanics.
FACT: ...."

Here's my evidence to show you otherwise.
http://www.infowars.com/articles/sept11/wtc7_why_did_rooftop_penthouse_collapse_ahead_of_rest_of_tower.htm

Just thought to mention that quote of yours is as old as 2007.. since it was commented on by someone in this forum:
http://forum.prisonplanet.com/index.php?topic=3513.0
Quote from Lord Carpainter: "WTC7 was a 47 story, steel-framed skyscraper, it was not hit by an airplane, and had minor fires. It collapsed at nearly free-fall speed at 5:20 PM, and squibs were seen rapidly moving up the side just before it collapsed. The cracks and kinks appear after the building caves in on itself. NIST fails to explain why it came down so fast, and why it came down so symmetrically and cleanly, into it's own footprint. Fire is named as the cause. This would make WTC7 the first steel building in history to collapse because of fire alone.

Their second argument is that Diesel fuel contributed to the collapse. NIST even said “No diesel smells [were] reported from the exterior, stairwells, or lobby areas” of WTC 7. Diesel fuel gives off a distinct smell. The idea that no one would smell Diesel fuel if it was burning is ludicrous."


Either way, from the article I linked earlier, it showed both WTC 5 and 6 suffering more damage from fire and falling debris than WTC 7, but remained standing still and not forgetting to stress that they're both a lot closer to the twin towers than 7.


"So that is the FACT ZACK. THATS THE REALITY. I have no doubt that your paranoid conspiracy delusion will just morph somewhere else each one getting more and more elaborate."

I still don't understand what you actually mean when you say 'morph somewhere else'... do you mean my arguments become more inconsistent? or that I start throwing red herrings? Simply, honestly don't understand.

and this is fact because one source says so? how convincing.


Anyways... earlier testimonies/reports versus a later day report? (Early Christian testimonies about Jesus vs later day Muhammad's 'revelation'/statement?)
here's an article from 2005 that included descriptions/analysis of the collapse/fire/etc.. rather long article... http://www.infowars.com/articles/sept11/reynolds_why_did_wtc_skyscrapers_collaps.htm
(To get to the point.. you can search this sentence and read from there onwards: "The next question is whether the fires were hot enough to cause the WTC buildings to collapse.")

Zack_Tiang said...

Hey, Fat Man. Guess I can say I'm glad you're still willing to 'pick me up and play with me'.

Fat Man: "They built a steal exo skeleton. So there was no "stronger inner core steel structure?""

Failed...
The WTC Towers had BOTH the 'exoskeleton' and the inner core structure design.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Trade_Center#Structural_design
The so-called 'exoskeleton' structure you mentioned was of steel, while the 'core of the tower' was "a combined steel and concrete structure".
And I'm sure I remember the designers/builders stating so too (from those WTC documnetaries).


"Also from the thousands of video's of that day, in everyone that show's the collapse it collapse from the top down not from the bottom up. As would be the case if the building used inner support columns and if those columns had been blown away."

I said there were explosions at the basement... did I say it cause the tower to collapse? (But combined with the theory of thermite/thermate bombs used to destroy/melt/disintegrate the steel structures of the tower, it does explain the molten flow of 'lava' left behind at ground zero that burned for weeks - theory by Prof Steven Jones)

There were explosions all along the towers, not only at the bottom. hence the 'squibs'.
Explosions (with good timing) made the tower seemed to fall and collapse into itself... when in actual fact and plain physics, nothing falling in on itself, with resistance from whatever's between it and the ground (apparently called 'conservation of momentum'), would collapse at free fall speed (meaning to fall without resistance/hindrance til the ground).
In the case of the WTC.. the top collapsed and reached the ground around 10 seconds; a speed consider free fall from that height. (Building 7 fell completely between 6-7 seconds, also considered free fall speed)

Building 7 sustained lots more damages than reported? And fell due to fire and 'structural failure'?
http://freespeech.vo.llnwd.net/o25/pub/pp/images/february2009/100209top11.jpg
Hmm... what're those standing between the Twin Towers and Building 7? why.. it's WTC 5 and 6.
Let's have a look at how those buildings fared after the events...
http://www.infowars.com/articles/sept11/new_wtc_photos_highlight_bizzare_7_collapse.htm
Seems they sustained quite some damages from the falling debris of 1 & 2, a lot actually... and both also suffer terrible fire (worse than building 7's fire on a few floors from the photos). Guess what? They both remained standing.

Zack_Tiang said...

Thought to share some of the articles I came across regarding Larry Silverstein's famous 'Pull it' comment (regarding Building 7):
1 - a rather long article - http://www.prisonplanet.com/011904wtc7.html

2 - Silverstein responded to the charge - http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/january2006/050106silversteinanswers.htm

3 - people told building 7 will be 'pulled' - http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/february2007/080207building7.htm

4 - inadvertently revelation that goes against Silverstein's respond - http://www.prisonplanet.com/bombshell-silverstein-wanted-to-demolish-building-7-on-911.html


Then regarding debunking911.com..
just thought to share some articles that I found that commented about it. just sharing views of those who disagree with it.
1 - http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/september2006/220906debunksitself.htm
2 - enjoy the comments - http://lataan.blogspot.com/2008/06/debunking911com-sophisticated-neocon.html

still haven't gotten the time to spend on the site though...

Zack_Tiang said...

"This is a completely false analogy and I guess a formal fallacy all wrapped into one."

I was touching on the human error side of the compilation.. not the writing of the original bible authors.. but the re-writing of the bible after them.

"Again! COMPLETE false analogy and formal fallacy. What do shards of concrete falling on people, people jumping out of 100 stories using plastic bags as parachutes, people burning to death, people suffocating to death, have ANYTHING remotely similar to Jesus' disciples or His resurrection?"

Read my statement again... Sorry if the statement confused you... I meant victims of the building that survived... William Rodriguez? The well-known and recognized hero who led people from both upstairs and also the basement to safety?

"Difference is, I know I'm biased; you seem to think you are the standard of objectivity and your 'alternative views' are unbiased."

Please explain to me then, how am I 'think[ing] myself as the standard of objectivity'..
Have you noticed the post of those who are arguing with me?
Fat Man: "So that is the FACT ZACK. THATS THE REALITY."
Odo: "I agree with Barean, youve been had brother!"
Who's stating clearly that they're being the 'standard of objectivity' here?

And where have I implied that my alternative views are unbiased?
I only said I'm remaining neutral on the matter of this Israeli/Flotilla incident. Doesn't mean I cannot use alternative or 'biased' articles to share with others who have the 'official' story...


"What are you talking about!? Look at how you completely overanalyze and blow out of proportion with these crazy theories (trying for it?). I would become COMPLETELY surprised if in fact those people had only been shot ONE time - doesn't usually happen unless they are on their knees being executed!"

Uhh... I thought I said I was talking about the example of a possible scenario that you explained?
And talk about consistency.. I thought the official story is that the only real weapon the Israeli commandos were carrying were sidearm pistols or something. And their primary weapon was a paintball gun. So where'd an Uzi come from?
Or even the idea that a commando 'burst fired' and hit multiple targets and some more than once in the back, based on your given scenario, not my own interjection?

Odo said...

Hey Zack,

Ya yourright, I guess IDF stopped using the Uzi 9mm and switched to the M4 paintball rifle instead.

Sorry man, my real gripe is with Barak or Gabi or whoever made this call. I don't know why the ship wasn't disabled and towed, or just plain ol sunk. Maybe its a blessing in disguise those soldiers had 9mm sidearms instead of rifles. I still think your theories a bit nutty, but who knows, guess all we can do is wait for the investigation.

CosmicBoy said...

the american media,politician and human activies are money minded and corrupt to the core.Don't you people know that by supporting what happen, Arab tycoon have deposited in their account milions! Don't you people check? They don't do it for nothing,you know.

Kirk said...

Zack_Tiang

Check out David Ray Griffin.

davidraygriffin.com

He is a retired professor of philosophy of religion and theology. His research into 9/11 Commission (Omission) Report is pretty solid.

As far as the hostile attitude toward conspiracy theories... Most who become hostile do not want to think about the questions and the possible answers to those questions. America's history is strewn with conspiracy to advance the Nation over others interest. Every Christian needs to come to grips with this. Though we are Blessed in this nation, this Nation is not the Savior, nor was it intended to be. We were Blessed to Bless others, just as Abraham was blessed... TO BE A BLESSING to all Nations(ethne, peoples). Just as Israel mostly became self centered, I presume America is following in step.

World governance is coming, the Bible attest to that. To say that America is the center of the world and will not assimilate to a world power is pretty far fetched, as Biblical eschatology traditionally does not mention America as a super-power in end times. Israel and the surrounding nations are the focal point, as of now those surrounding are Islamic nations (Check out Joel Richardson and Walid Shoebat too. www.joelstrumpet.com, Book: The Islamic Anti-Christ. Walid Shoebat.com, Book: God's War on Terror).

Just an encouragement, don't die on a hill for Alex Jones, though he does scream about some pretty interesting stuff, factual too. Christ was not Nationalistic, His Kingdom is otherworldly and sees no boundaries. Though Francis Shaeffer made a point, in "How Shall We Then Live", that as Christian's in America we have a unique opportunity to influence politics, foreign policies and ultimately the world for Christ, so we cannot throw out America's government just yet with the bathwater, as we still have those opportunities for influence. Alex does bring up, that the time is growing shorter for our freedom's to influence are slowly but surely being taken away. Though the common man does not see the demise out front and center, you don't need to dig far to see that... If you can't see that, your worldview is probably a bit off.

Eric said...

Disturbing and illuminating on multiple levels.