Sunday, June 27, 2010

Support Acts 17 Trip to ISNA!

Nabeel and I just decided to take a trip to ISNA's (the Islamic Society of North America's) national convention in Chicago this weekend. We went last year, and attended many sessions. Though the Muslims who attend ISNA seem to be far more peaceful than some of the Muslims in Dearborn, we don't expect we'll be welcome inside this time. (After all, we were arrested for having a peaceful discussion in Dearborn, which must mean that we're bad.) However, since we had several good discussions last year, we're going to try to meet with some of the Muslims there. If any Muslims are interested in having some street debates or dialogues, we'll be happy to oblige. Sam Shamoun and Antonio will be going with us. The overall plan would be something like this:

DAY 1: Distribute literature on our best arguments against Islam. Invite Muslims to examine our claims and get back to us the following day.
DAY 2: Discuss any objections to our materials. Invite Muslims to challenge their scholars to come out and refute our arguments.
DAY 3: Street debates and dialogues.
DAY 4: Street debates and dialogues.

Fortunately, the Chicago Police respect the Constitution (unlike Dearborn Police), so we look forward to a peaceful exchange. Tickets from New York and Virginia to Chicago are expensive since the conference is this weekend. We'll also need to do a lot of printing at Kinkos this week. Please support our trip via PayPal. We'll be sure to get plenty of video footage (yes, I actually had to spend $500 to purchase a new camera, since the Dearborn Police Department refuses to give our cameras back).





42 comments:

Besmikov Lenko said...

David, if you don't mind, what are your objectives at the ISNA conference? You haven't listed any pertinent arguments that discuss why your fan base should be supporting you.

David Wood said...

Objectives? We have a ton of them. Some of the primary objectives of a trip to ISNA would be:

(1) Since we've been to ISNA before, we know that they're spreading misinformation about Islam. We will give people the facts about Islam, so that people are free to make an informed decision.

(2) Since we've been to ISNA before, we know that they're spreading misinformation about Christianity. We will give people the facts about Christianity, so that people are free to make an informed decision.

In other words, when people go to ISNA, they're being deceived. For anyone who wants the truth, we'll be there to share it with them.

Haecceitas said...

Besmikov Lenko,

Do you think that it is fair to title your blog "Acts 17 Apologetics"?

hugh watt said...

Yeah Besmikov Lenko,

Why are you calling your blog "Acts 17 Apologetics"?

hugh watt said...

Oh, B. Lenko,

Could you list any pertinent arguments that discuss why you are copy pasting from this site then misrepresenting what's said?

Anthony Rogers said...

David,

Here is something I saw elsewhere on the net from a Muslim:

"We have just caught word that Acts 17 Apologetics has decided to crash the party at the ISNA conference this weekend. We need Muslims with cameras at the event. We need to help spread the word? You can visit, www.answeringmuslims.com for more information. We don't want them to pull a fast one on us like they did in Dearborn."

John Lollard said...

Anthony,

That's interesting. On the surface, it looks like Muslims want to make sure that there is plenty of independent video evidence of Acts 17 at the ISNA conference.

Could it be that these Muslims consider Acts 17's demands for the cameras to be returned as a trick?

All the same, if the Muslims have the video footage, whether they edit it or not, they will still be able to see it and know Acts 17's behavior at these events, and maybe it will convince the Muslims of Acts 17's innocence. Maybe there will be a huge wave of these Muslim videos appearing on youtube with titles like "Acts 17 behaves cordially in sharing the gospel at ISNA", or "The men and women in Acts 17 exhibit perfect manners", or something to the like.

I'm an optimist. At the least, if Muslims videotape you and then feel the need to edit or destroy the video, they themselves will still know the truth.

Love in Christ,
JL

Letitia (The Damsel) said...

David and Nabeel,

For your protection, ask the police to state on camera that you are within your rights to have open dialogue and pass out literature to convention-goers and to have all your activities recorded.

Mike said...

Give it a rest already, guys. You really are looking for trouble and for attention. I guess you just want to keep playing the "persecuted for Christ" card. Don't you have anything better to do than to go to yet another muslim event and start up trouble? Sheesh.

mkvine said...

Guys, I have a weird feeling that "Besmikov Lenko" is actually Yahya Snow in disguise. I think he's trying to pull a fast one on us by pretending to be a Czech person. Who knows, I hope I'm wrong on that...

The Fat Man said...

David is this a one day event or is it going to be the whole weekend. I would love to join you on Saturday or Sunday.

Oh your not going to be in Chicago, your going to be in Rosemont.

The Berean Search said...

Mike,

As an American (since you're not a Christian), grow a backbone. Also, stop blaming David and Nabeel for Muslim's inability to act right in a free society.

1moremuslim said...

To David Wood:
Thousand of Christians Are "misinformed" and "Deceived" in all of the Universities throughout the world: They are taught that the Bible is a pack of pseudonymous and anonymous books (Forgeries). Christians are being taught that Jesus never claimed to be divine. I want to know , what do you think about this mass and systematic "deception" of student? And what is your plan to correct this "misinformation" in the Universities?

As for ISNA, I saw the program, can you tell me what is there about Christianity to be misinformed about? All the programs are about to be a better person in family and in society! There is nothing there to object to. There is even a Christian clergyman Michael Kinnamon, and Jeremy Schneider a Jewish RABBI who will give many speeches.

Van Grungy said...

You should consider gpal.net

Atlas Shrugs had a problem with paypal, maybe you heard.

Stay cool.

Mike said...

Hey Berean Search, I never said that David and Nabeel have no right to what they are going to do. As long as they do their evangelism in a non-disruptive way and are not harassing others, they are protected by the first amendment.

I just think the potential is there for them (David and Nabeel) to make idiots out of themselves once again.

Then again, I can't be too hard on these guys. When I was a fundie, I used to do very similar things. Heck, I would even walk up to Muslims in walmart and start evangelizing them on the spot.

Just so you know, I'm no fan of Islam as a religion. I know there are several problems with it, just like there are several problems with evangelical/fundamentalist Christianity.

Oh, and if David and Nabeel are innocent of misconduct in Dearborn, I believe the truth will come out and they will be exonerated. Time will tell.

Mike said...

A Jewish rabbi at an Islamic convention?!?!?! I fear for that guy's safety!

John Lollard said...

I have a question that just caught me;

Where did you get the video footage of your arrests? Why does it only include your arrests?

I'm sorry if you've answered this elsewhere.

Love in Christ,
JL

David Wood said...

Hi John,

Someone sent us the footage of our arrests. The police illegally confiscated our cameras, which is why we don't have the rest of the footage.

Anthony Rogers said...

Mike said: I just think the potential is there for them (David and Nabeel) to make idiots out of themselves once again.

Does part of no long being a "fundie" mean you no longer take seriously Christ's command not to speak that way of those who are supposed to be your brothers? (q.v. Matt. 5)

Not only that, you first have to demonstrate that they made "idiots out of themselves" a first time before you speak of the potential for them to do it again. Otherwise you make yourself look like, well, I'd rather not say.

minoria said...

Hello Mike:

You as a non-Muslim should be more respectful and not call others idiots when they are not.

If YOU consider being an idiot just asking questions in a (supposedly)FREE,DEMOCRATIC country,the US and unjustly getting persecuted(like it happened twice to David and Nabeel) then where is your INTELLIGENCE?Have you seen the VIDEO of how they were unjustly harassed in Dearborn the FIRST time?
The police REFUSE to give them back THREE videos of what happened the second time and you still think they are not innocent?(are being idiots,as you said)Your reasoning says they did something wrong both times,it's obvious.

You are WHITE.Suppose you were BLACK or BROWN.If you were to go to a Southern hotel and get unjustly rejected for your color(when you had the RIGHT,in a supposedly free country,to be there),then if I were to say:"You made an idiot of yourself,"
what would you think?And if you were to show me the video and I said :"I hope you don't make an idiot of yourself the next time."you would think I am telling you YOU were wrong just for being black/brown.
This is not a game.Hindus,Buddhist believe in reeincarnation and then all go to nirvana and disappear.Jews DO NOT believe in hell.Nor atheists and agnostics.So they never do missionary work.
But the evidence for Christianity is very good.Islam is false,no doubt about it.

MORE:when they went the last time to ISNA they did nothing wrong either then,so where is the basis for your claim "act like idiots again".The one who is immature is you.You make a claim with no evidence,I expected more from a freethinker.Really.It's sad.

David Wood said...

Mike said: "When I was a fundie, I used to do very similar things."

When you were a fundie? You seem like more of a fundie than any Christian on this blog.

minoria said...

MORE ON THE KORAN
Christians,in fact,all non-Muslims,should take the trouble to find out,and review the data till it is almost memory,about why the Koran is false.

SOLOMON AND THE QUEEN OF SHEBA

In sura 27:15-44 we have that:

1. Solomon talks to animals and spirits,and orders them,they obey him.

2.He sends a bird with a message to the Queen of Sheba.

3.She visits him and goes to the place,sees a floor of glass,thinks it is water,lifts up her dress to show her legs.

THE SAME THING

In the 2nd TARGUM of ESTHER,a Jewish book,written at the latest in the 4th century AD.

I have ALREADY given info on this before.You can show like TEN stories in the Koran that were copied,in essence,from stories written between 100-600 AD.

One has to shake one's laziness and research all this and tell others (INCLUDING Muslims).I am doing that,in the Spanish-language forum,a Muslim one,I have already given them all this,except for the above,which I hope appears tomorrow.
I get insults from them,but little in the way of true counter-arguments,but if they are ever going to see the light,the info has to be given.Ignorance is bliss,but an ignorance that sends you the way of DEEDAT,KHOMEINI,ARAFAT,straight to hell.
In my case if those Muslims don't want to read me,they don't have to,but they do,I can tell by their comments,it's a GOOD sign,it shows there is still hope.Personally,I think they are too closed to get out of Islam,but you at LEAST(as there are several NON-MUSLIMS in the forum)the non-Muslims won't ever get into Islam and the Christians in the forum will become MORE strong in why Christianity is true.That is what fundamental,or believing in BASICS,regarding the NT,is about.

And Mike,one of the BASICS or FUNDAMENTALS of the NT is the Golden Rule.It is not exclusive to Jesus,other religions have it, but it is basic.

mkvine said...

I think Mike just made himself look like an....

Besmikov Lenko said...

@David-

(1) If the Muslim information services at ISNA are spreading erroneous information on Islam, can you give us a few examples of what they've misconstrued, and what you purport as factual?

(2) If the Muslim information services at ISNA are spreading erroneous information on Christianity, can you give us a few examples of what they've misconstrued, and what you purport as factual?

I want to believe you, but can you support your claims utilizing empirical evidence? It's a simple request, wouldn't you agree?


@Haecceitas & hugh watt-

I named my blog Acts 17 Apologetics to garner more traffic to my blog. Furthermore, what did I exactly misrepresent about www.answeringmuslims.com on my blog? If you point it out to me, I will take it down immediately.

Fernando said...

To 1more muslim:
Thousand of muslims are "misinformed" and "Deceived" in all mosques, madrassas and islamic universities all aroun the world: They are taught that the qur'an is a God inspired book insted of being a "copy and paste" (forgerie) of antient books, full off scientific miracles instead off scientific errors, that muhammad was a normal person with high moral standards instead of a psychotic, womaniser, paedophilicus and prone to suicide. Muslims are being taught that Jesus never claimed to be divine and thate He was simple a great man prophet. I want to know , what do you think about this mass and systematic "deception" of student? And what is your plan to correct this "misinformation" in the Universities, madrassas, mosques and so on?

kind to reply? or you are just spitting lies around here and then running like a coward?

The Berean Search said...

Mike,

When you say all of the following:

"I guess you just want to keep playing the "persecuted for Christ" card"

"Don't you have anything better to do than to go to yet another muslim event and start up trouble?"

"...for them (David and Nabeel) to make idiots out of themselves once again."

"When I was a fundie..."

..it really makes me wonder a lot of things about what exactly you are trying to communicate and accomplish here. If my comment to you caused you to go emotionally charged with your language, then I apologize for it's gruffness, but you are way off base in trying to read David and Nabeel's minds to know their motives, and as someone who is a self-described "former fundie" I would think that you at least understand *why* David and Nabeel are passionate about their beliefs and could find a way to respect another human being with the courage to follow convictions.

hugh watt said...

Mike said:

"Now, I wasn't at the arab festival, so I can't say for sure what happened. We have both people saying that David and Nabeel acted inappropriately and people who say David and Nabeel deserved to be arrested. I can't say for sure what happened, but I've been reading this blog for a while and prior to the festival, it seemed that David and Nabeel were hoping for some kind of confrontation/incident to happen at the festival. Taking that into consideration, and the fact that you brought a video camera with you as well makes me wonder if you guys are as innocent as you make yourselves out to be. Hopefully the truth will prevail and if you guys are innocent of the charges, you will be exonerated. However, I'm strongly allowing for the possibility that you guys may have gotten what you deserved....

"As an agnostic theist" your above statement, which is as clear as mud, makes little sense!
What's your problem anyway? If you'd like to respond would you mind posting on the "Wood vs Loftus Debate" thread; so we don't interrupt the flow here.

guanhaben said...

Is very important that any occidental (culture), christian or not, reads this article.
We are being destroyed from within, from our own system. We should confront this or in freedom,
our Children and grandsons, simply they will not be.
Does not exist moderates, There is no integration: ..."Listen up, crazy freaks,
we're here to stay. You're the foreigners here, with Allah on my side I'm not afraid of anything.
Take my advice: convert to Islam, and you will find peace"... http://www.catholic.org/international/international_story.php?id=33599&page=1
It is happening now,we all must join ourselves, brothers.
Greetings from Europe's islands

Mike said...

David, perhaps we have different definitions of what a fundamentalist is. Just so you know, I think men like Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens are extreme fundamentalist atheist, but they make some good points. I would say the same thing about extreme fundamentalist Christians.

Also, David, I must say I liked some of your choices for favorite movies, especially the Boondock Saints. Maybe you're not such a fundie after all. :-) Maybe you are just an evangelical. Robert M. Price says, "An evangelical is a fundamentalist who will let you go to the movies."

Hugh-Sorry my statement is unclear. All I'm saying is that while I'm a little suspicious of David and Nabeel's conduct, I would love to see the rest of the footage, especially if it will exonerate them. I'm starting to think that they are probably innocent of what they have been charged with, but I can't say for sure. And of course, they are innocent until proven guilty.

Also, I didn't watch or listen to the Wood Vs. Loftus debate, so I can't respond. By bringing that up, are you trying to say I'm an atheist? If so, that is definitely not who I am. Agnostic theist would probably be the best way to describe me. Please be assured that I know that according to your belief system, I will still share the common fate of atheists, muslims etc, so there is no need for the expected threats of hellfire and damnation.

Haecceitas said...

Besmikov Lenko,

It would be fine to INCLUDE "Acts 17 Apologetics" in your blog name (as in "Answering Acts 17 Apologetics", but since you aren't a representative of Acts 17 Apologetics, I think you shouldn't use that as the sole title of your blog. How would you like it if I registered a site that is devoted to criticizing you and titled it simply with your name?

In your blog post, you preface your analysis by saying that you are dismantling the "falsehoods" from David's blog post. But you are employing double standards. In the first paragraph of your commentary, you fault David for inferring things about the honesty and/or motives of Chief Haddad without basing this explicitly on something Haddad has said/done. Yet you have no trouble reading between the lines and attributing dishonesty and/or questionable motives to David without a concrete basis for these accusations. By a consistent application of your own standard, this makes your blog post a "falsehood".

Odo said...

Hello Besmikov,

you said: If the Muslim information services at ISNA are spreading erroneous information on Islam, can you give us a few examples of what they've misconstrued

Well for one, anytime there is a Islamic jihadist attack ISNA comes out and proclaims the attack un-Islamic and go on to quote surah 5:32 as a proclamation of peace.

Only they chop up the surah, take out imperative information such as "the Children of Israel", and don't quote the verse after which tells Muslims to slaughter or mutilate.

And they use this verse as an example of peace.

Please check out this video:

http://www.answeringmuslims.com/search/label/ISNA

Besmikov Lenko said...

@Haecceitas -

Thanks for the link to the video, but frankly I'm not convinced. Quoting any religious scripture and affirming you have great knowledge about it without a basic degree in historical & religious studies is the first sign of incompetence, if not impurity of the heart. How about you read 5:27 before rushing over to 5:32.

Eagerly waiting for your reply.

Besmikov Lenko said...

Forgive me, but I meant the previous post to be addressed to Odo, and not to Haecceitas.

minoria said...

Now I have seen everything,now there are 2 ACTS17 websites,like there are 2 answering-islam websites(one takes you to Osama's website,answering-christianity) and 2 faithfreedom websites(another takes you to a Muslim website).Life is stranger than fiction.

Since BESMIKOV is Czech,as a note of interest,I would like to say that there was a great Czech writer called JAN NERUDA,(19th cent)and there was a CHILEAN man called Nefatli Reyes.He adopted a pseudonym,became one of the greatest poets of the 20th cent,won the NOBEL prize and his literary name was PABLO NERUDA.

minoria said...

Hello Besmikov:
You do at least agree with us that the Koran has stories that it copied indirectly from writings that date from 100-600 AD?What is your opinion on THAT?
It is a human product,Mohammed heard oral stories.Ask any scholar and he will say they have known that for 100 years.BASIC knowledge of the Koran,Islam 101.

ABRAHAM IN THE FIRE

The TARGUM JONATHAN BEN UZZIAH is from the 1st cent AD.He mistranlated GEN 15:1("the Lord took Abraham out of UR of the Chaldeans").
UR in BABYLONIAN means "city".It is also the name of a real city.
The man mistook it for UR/OR,HEBREW for FIRE.He wrote:"the Lord took Abraham out of the FIRE of the Chaldeans").

MIDRASH RABBAH,a 2nd cent AD collection of Jewish stories.It also has it.So that is the origin for Abraham being saved from a FIRE in the KORAN:suras 21:51-71/37:97-99.

We have like TEN similar cases in the Koran,again,basic knowledge about the Koran,Islam 101.

Anthony Rogers said...

Besmikov said: "Thanks for the link to the video, but frankly I'm not convinced. Quoting any religious scripture and affirming you have great knowledge about it without a basic degree in historical & religious studies is the first sign of incompetence, if not impurity of the heart. How about you read 5:27 before rushing over to 5:32."

What a riot. If not having a degree in historical and religious studies disqualifies one from saying what 5:32 means, then by the same token we may well ask on what basis you so confidently affirm that 5:27 helps prove that 5:32 means that Muslims are to be peaceful? In fact, your appeal to 5:27 also assumes that the person you are responding to is competent to understand.

Furthermore, what degree in historical or religious studies did the author of the Qur'an have? It sure is obvious that his knowledge of Judaism and Christianity, which he didn't hesitate to pontificate on contrary to your artificial and self-serving stricture, did not come from any formal education.

Odo said...

Eagerly waiting for your reply.

Im not sure what to reply to? The fact that ISNA presents false information on CNN about their scripture by omitting verses left and right to fit their 'peacful' agenda?

minoria said...

Hello Besmikov:
I read 5:27,it is about Abel being killed by Cain.Then go to 5:32 and then 5:33 which says he who fights Muhammed will be crucified,or have an arm or leg cut off,etc.
The 5:34 says excepted are those who give up.
In all honesty,it sounds like the words of a Napoleon,Ceaser,Alexander,Hernan Cortes(who conquered Mexico)...more than the words of the most holy man that ever existed,as Muslims believe.What is your opinion.As for me,I agree Moses,David,Joshua were not the most holy,the greatest examples for all humanity(it would be Jesus or somebody very similar,Buddha,Confucius).Not Mohammed,so you agree with me on that?

hugh watt said...

1-2 Besmikov said:

"The current demographics show that Muslims cannot be in majority and therefore the city's judicial system was only acting in accordance with the law on the day of David's and Nabeel's arrest."

How so?

"First thing to note is that David makes the bold statement that, 'Muslims wont hesitate to lie about us in an effort to get rid of us.' Two stereotypical assertions are made: 1) Muslims are liars. 2) Muslims don't like Christians (within context)"

1) What does 'taqiyya' mean?
2) S:98.6. Those who reject (Truth),
Among the People of the Book
And among the Polytheists,
Will be in hell-fire,
To dwell therein (for aye).
They are the worst
Of creatures.

7. Those who have faith
And do righteous deeds,—
They are the best
Of creatures.

Yeah, they like the 'Christians' who accept Muhammad's claim of prophethood. Those who do not are the "worst of creatures."

"Secondly he says that, "our cameras vindicated us last year..." The question then arises who were they exactly vindicated from? The Muslims of Dearborn? He further goes on to say, "and proved that security was persecuting Christians." Astounding! What a childish claim to accuse the security for persecution and discrimination, considering that many Arabs, especially the Lebanese, are Christian folk - who were largely present at the Arab Festival 2009. David also claims that security had been 'harassing Christians all weekend" - slightly disconcerting considering that Acts 17 Apologetics was the only ministry to report the persecution and on tape. I smell a rat, do you? What grabbed my attention was the following quote, "Can anyone seriously object to the cameras, given the fact that people have tried to get us into trouble through deception two years running?" This then begs the question how could people have used deception 'two years running' when David just mentioned that they were able to catch the persecution on tape."

Try reading-up on what happened last year, it may clarify a few things for you.

hugh watt said...

2.

"Q: Why did you go to the festival even after you had been threatened, knowing that there could be problems?

A: We don’t believe in backing down from Muslim threats and intimidation, as this only encourages Muslims to engage in further threats and intimidation. Hence, if we’re told, “Stay off of this public street or else,” we’re probably not going to stay away.


Besmikov replied:

"One could question the veracity of David's answer. David states that his entire team 'doesn't believe in backing down from Muslim threats and intimidation," but is he being truthful? Did David and Nabeel go to the Arab Fest 2010 because they simply didn't want to back away from a threat or were they looking for something controversial to report on the collective Muslim populace of Dearborn?"

Seems you've already made up your mind on that one.

hugh watt said...

Mike.

"Hugh-Sorry my statement is unclear. All I'm saying is that while I'm a little suspicious of David and Nabeel's conduct, I would love to see the rest of the footage, especially if it will exonerate them. I'm starting to think that they are probably innocent of what they have been charged with, but I can't say for sure. And of course, they are innocent until proven guilty."

Well, good on you Mike. Let's wait and see before pronouncing jugdment.

"Please be assured that I know that according to your belief system, I will still share the common fate of atheists, muslims etc, so there is no need for the expected threats of hellfire and damnation."

Thought you were going to start a debate that would be more suited on that thread.
I'm not here to damn you or anyone else; just wanted to talk.

Locrian said...

"I named my blog Acts 17 Apologetics to garner more traffic to my blog."

@David or Nabeel
If you have a dba, or any document identifying you as the owners of the title of "Acts 17 Apologetics" (even your go-daddy contract for the domain name) it's very easy to have the web sites of users infringing on your ip (intellectual property) removed from the internet. Most hosting solutions will bend over backwards to help the ip owners, unless the site is hosted in some liberal country outside of the US, and this is usually found in the terms of service or acceptable user policy of the host.

You could gather the information and write out a complaint ticket in less then 30 minutes and would be my advice in this situation. I've done this many times over the years with digital art, and have only had one host ever blow me off with my request once I provided proof.

Best to you all