Saturday, May 22, 2010

Jesus or Muhammad Today (Saturday) at 2:30 P.M. (Eastern Standard Time)

We'll be having an episode of "Jesus or Muhammad" at 2:30 today. Anyone interested in discussing the cartoon controversy? (We're trying to have some afternoon episodes for people in radically different time zones). Be sure to tune in via satellite or online here

47 comments:

Mac said...

Looking forward to it.

The Fat Man said...

I tried to call in to discuss the Facebook accounts being suspended for being in the Everybody Draw a Picture of Mohamed day" but they said they needed the line and would call me back. They never did

David Wood said...

Yeah, they were having technical problems and didn't get back to you. They sent me a text telling me to pass an apology on to you.

minoria said...

Hey guys:
There are several drawings of Muhammed in jihadwatch,for the "Draw Muhammed Day".The most comical is a drawing of PORKY PIG with a TURBAN and BEARD and:"Da-da-da-dat's all KAFFIRS."(imitating "da-da-dat's all folks")

A real imagination.

The Fat Man said...

David its all good, I just wanted to see if anyone else has experienced the same thing.

What's funny is there saying that they received several reports that I was not using my real name on FB. But everyone in my friends list is a real friend that I actually know and they know me. Must since the 4th grade.

The Fat Man said...

Anyone have Jihad Watch email? I want to send him a email to see if he can investigate if anyone else was banned from Facebook.

Nazam said...

This is pretty much collective punishment on the whole Muslim community for the actions of a few. The inspiration for this event was the threats that the South Park creators received from a group called Revolution Muslim.

There also seems to be a level of incitement, the strange and morbid wish to receive death threats, as the moderator put it, “Did you receive any death threats? If so, post them online and share the fun. ”

Interestingly enough, a few participants in the Draw Muhammad Day expressed disappointment at not receiving death threats, one Jack Burns wrote,

Jack Burns
’m really disappointed…I haven’t received any…I’m starting to feel left out!

Troels Jensen
damn, i did not get a death threat yet, darn…

The Fat Man said...

Ok this is scary, I found out somethings. First it looks like if you published a picture in the group then you are in the same boat as me.

Now I'm not really a paranoid conspiracy theory nut. But think about this.

Pakistan bans Facebook at first indefinitely.

Then Facebook bans the users who posted images of Mohamed in the group.

Pakistan then lift's the ban or says it will lift the ban at the end of May.

Facebook sends out a email to those that it banned saying that it needs to verify their identity with a government issued ID.

Could it be that Facebook made a deal with Pakistan to get the personal information of those that posted pictures of Mohamed?

So what does this mean.
Well although I have not broken any laws in the United States of America, who says I haven't broken any laws over seas.

With my personal information I could be charged in Pakistan.

Now I don't think I will ever have any reason or desire to travel to Pakistan.

But let's say I travel to a country that has good ties with Pakistan. Say I go to Canada, Mexico, Jamaica, or even Europe. Technically I could be arrested and held for extradition in these countries.

I know its paranoia, but it's not paranoia when someone is really trying to kill you :)

The Fat Man said...

Nazzam said...

as the moderator put it, “Did you receive any death threats? If so, post them online and share the fun. ”

Yes I have recieved death threats for exercising my GOD GIVEN RIGHT TO FREEDOM OF SPEECH. You asked for it so here they are.

okalvi
you son of a bitch what you have pasted here, remove it otherwise you will be removed.

lovebiteuk
Stop this nooon sence u are out of mind Allaha Will give you hell in this world

game22000
your distination is hell

saqy1234
you dog iam a 13 year old boy but i give you lanat to go to hell yo deserve to die in hell and when the day of judjge ment comes the jaal will eat you like a rat inshaala mother fucker if yo don't want to go to hell then remove this shit

XM41NX786
us on of a bich

matynsam
YOU WILL ROT JUST LIKE THE REST OF THE FOLLOWERS OF SATAN,believe you me you will suffer in this world.hope allah keeps you alive rite till judgement day.mark my words you DOG!

fsdlions
you all will b burnt in hell INSHALLAH and in this world ur soul and life will b restless AMEEN

ThePROBOXER
Can someone hack the guy who posted this's IP address and send someone round please....

ZionistJewHunter
Thats not even funny shows how much you love the Devil you jew, why mock other realigons just because your an idiot?

swatidon1
hey change ur neme wat the fuck is this
u just be ashamed of ur self
u shud be thankful to god if u were in front of me i swear would have killed u

naatonline
whoever this did is a kafar and i hope they rot in hell watch your windows im going to trace your ip adress of your computer and come and kill you and your family and allah will grant me heaven for doing such a good deed .watch your back

Nazzam you want more?

The Fat Man said...

Oh btw David Wood, I blame you for my Facebook ban, if you wouldn't of posted about the group I never would of joined so there for it's all your fault :)

Nazam said...

Fatman,

I wasn't denying that nobody has not received any death threats but that how "Draw Muhammed" descends into a hate fest between Muslims and non-Muslims.

You said, "My God given right to exercise free speech". Yes, but I see no point in cartoons that are simply meant to offend an entire religious group.


The event itself was a mixture of self-righteous internet warriors who cared less about free speech and more about offending and disparaging Muslims.

If this event was put together to defend freedom of speech it has failed. Freedom of speech, the freedom to offend, to be a racist is not in dispute but when they get called out for it don’t begin whining.

The fact is that over the course of 10 years, millions of Muslims respected the free speech of South Park and didn’t even lodge a polite complaint with Comedy Central. What exactly are we being punished for? Our inability to enforce a zero-tolerance policy and prevent a blogger from hitting the Enter key?

Just this week, Congressman Bart Stupak wrote that he had received so many death threats (that’s actual phoned-in threats, not just one passive-aggressive blog post) that he was advised to beef up his security. It’s safe to assume that most of those death threats were fueled by religious fervor, but since the religion in question isn’t Islam, it gets a pass.

minoria said...

Hello Fat Man:
I am getting worried.Do not give Facebook anything,change to MySpace.Facebook thinks people are stupid,and a few will do what Facebook asks for,but the whole thing stinks.

Hello Nazam:
I am glad many have received no death threats.Things are getting better

The Fat Man said...

Nazam said....

"The event itself was a mixture of self-righteous internet warriors who cared less about free speech and more about offending and disparaging Muslims."

I agree for most it was just a excuse to "cheeze of muslims" I even said that in another post.

But for me it was about defending your right Nazam to offend me.

And yes you as a Muslim offend me. Even if you do not say the things that other Muslims say about Jesus calling him just a man or just a prophet and not the Son of God. By saying or even believing such things you call my God a liar, and that is Blasphemy.

Even if you don't say the things that other Muslims publicly say about Paul, calling him a liar etc... Just by practicing your relegion you are forced to believe this about Paul.

Even if you don't say publicly that Christians corupted the text of the New Testament, just by believing the Quran you are forced to believe that Christians are liars.

And yes Nazam these things are offensive to me.

So this is why I chose to draw a picture of Mohamed. Not just to insult or offend Muslims. But by drawing a picture of Mohamed I protected the rights of Muslims to believe and say the offensive things that they say and think about Christ, and Christianity.

The Fat Man said...

Nazam one more thing, I will defend to the death your right to offend me by believing in Islam. Will you defend to the death my right to offend you by drawing a picture of Mohamed?

LouisJ-B said...

Mr.Wood,

can you verify with ABN that the episodes of 'Jesus or m'who?'hammad ft. yourself and Sam Shamoun in 2010 aren't lost?

I'm tired of trying.;-)

Nazam said...

Robert (Minoria)

Yeh, I'm also glad that those people did not recevied death threats even though they wished they did but that wasn't my orginal point. My point was how the whole "Draw Muhammed Day" condescended into a day of hate fest between Muslims and non-Muslims.



Fatman,

No, I wouldn't defend to death your right to slur, upset, lie, slander, provoke or be racist.

Nor, would I want you to do the same for me, as I don't believe that some rights are just not worth dying for.

The Fat Man said...

Nazam said...

"No, I wouldn't defend to death your right to slur, upset, lie, slander, provoke or be racist. "

Then you have a problem sir. Because everything you believe about Christ, Christianity, and the bible is a "Slur, it upsets, you believe a lie, and it is slander and it does provoke" the comment about being a racist i don't understand didn't know that Islam was a race.

Good to know you have no problem Offending slandering,provoking and spreading lies about Christ.

The Fat Man said...

Nazzam

That's the difference between me and you. I hold the freedom of speech sacrasant for all people. You as a Muslim hold freedom of speech only for Muslims.

Nazam said...

Fatman.

"You as a Muslim hold freedom of speech only for Muslims."

I didn't say that, only I see no point in dying for something so that people can mock and slander others.

I see this more of an abuse of free speech.

If people want to die for the right of others to insult them and visa versa than they can do so. I just don't think it's something worth dying or fighting for.

Simon said...

nazam

what do u think abou them muslims who force islam on non muslims? if they wont convert then they(muslims) will kill them. do u think them infidels have the right to get killed over islam?

AND I WANT A STRAIGHT ANSWER FROM TO MY NEXT QUESTION.

why would these muslims want to kill these nonmuslims? and where would they get this idea from?

Hiwot said...

Nazam,

Even though your comment is for Fat Man but I just want to say something. You said, “No, I wouldn't defend to death your right to slur, upset, lie, slander, provoke or be racist.”

Religion and race are two different things. It is not your choice to be born in a certain race but you chose to follow a certain religion. It is true that when you were a child you follow your parents’ religion but when you grow up then it becomes your choice.

Therefore, you should not be criticized about your race but you could be criticized about your religion if the religion you follow promotes oppression, violence, and so on…

I don’t support slandering, lying, or insulting others but I do support criticism and rebuking others based on truth and reality. And, I don’t think free speech is slandering and insulting others.

Regards

Nazam said...

Thank you for the comment Hiwot. I agree with everything you have to say, I just choose to make a distinguishen between criticising and mocking others. I believe you can still make your point of something without having to mock or make fun out of others.

When I said I wouldn't prepare to die for someone's right to be racist, I was making a general statement about the extremes of free speech but of-cause race and religion are two different things. You can critic and reject a religion but to be racist this dose not fall within the category of criticism but insults and abuse.

Nazam said...

And one more last thing, "Draw Muhammed" was done for most people to cheese of Muslims and sharing your death threats for fun with others.

In other words, it had nothing to do with criticism but everything to do with whining up and making people angry. Hardly something I would want to defend or die for.

Zack_Tiang said...

The "Draw Muhammad" day event was indeed an event mainly focused on 'pissing off" the Muslims... Highly doubtful that it wasn't.

But think about it, what led to this event? Muslims violently protesting against South Park's Muhammad drawing, and even flooding death threats to the guy of South park (forgot his name)... Was there any attempts to hurt/kill him so far?

The Muslims started this trend of violence.... and what's the non-Muslim's 'counter attack'?
"Let's get EVERYBODY to draw Muhammad for ONE day.." "Yeah, there'll show 'em."

yeah, they made fun of Muslims/Muhammad... but did they start protesting and chanting "Kill the Muslims!", "Exterminate all muslims!", "Destroy mosques"?
No.. they just have everyone draw Muhammad... for one day...

A far cry from "Kill *Name of person*", "Stop this or else"... etc.

The Fat Man said...

Nazam yes we have all ready established that for most who joined everybody draw mohamed day was to cheeze off Muslims.

However for some it was more then that. Think about this. Muslim's threatin South Park creators with death. Make no mistake about it, this was a death threat.

Before this Muslims riot the world over killing a few hundred people over cartoons that were published in denmark 6 months to a year before.

We have Muslims using there freedom of speech in great britten and other countrys calling for people to die, the real holocost is comming, Death to those who insult the prophet etc...

These were not just a handfull of "ROUGE MUSLIMS" these were quite a few Muslims who were following Sharia law. And yes that is Sharia law.

But what was the response to this violence another peacefull demonstration that at the very least 50+ thousand people would not be intimidated. We did not respond with violence we did not respond with death threats, instead we responded with drawings. Demonstrating that the Pen is mightier then the sword.

I don't know where you live, I assume it is in a western country. I don't know if your a revert or born that way Muslim. But I do know this if you are a Muslim living in the west. You have just demonstrated why Muslims can not be trusted to live in western civilized societies.

I may not like what you say, or believe, but I will defend to the death, yes I mean that to the death your right to say and believe what ever you believe regardless of how offensive it is to me.

These are western values, it is part of the core of our value system.

Since you have demonstrated, (not just you but others Muslims as well) that you do not share in this core value of the west, it leads me to question what other western values or ideals you do not share in.

Now with that said and done, I have to tip my hat to Sammi Zatari, he gave a good response to everybody draw a picture of Mohamed day. I actually joined that group as well.

If there would of been some Christian group making death threats to the creators of south park, my reaction would of been the same.

Sepher Shalom said...

Nazam,

Your Quran is offensive, insulting, racist, blasphemous, and written with no other purpose than to offend non Muslims........ ...and by the way I have 170 million people who agree with me and we are taking action to stop you from reading and reciting it. Free speech is not an excuse for you to offend us all with your racist, offensive, insulting book.

Now do you see why letting people's subjective definition of what forms of speech are acceptable is a losing proposition?

You better be careful what you wish for because the 80% of humanity that is non Muslim could turn on your freedom and beliefs before you know it.

(P.S.- The first paragraph in my comment is illustrative to make a point, in case anyone missed that.)

Nazam said...

Zack,

The fact is that over the course of 10 years, millions of Muslims respected the free speech of South Park and didn’t even lodge a polite complaint with Comedy Central. What exactly are we being punished for? Our inability to enforce a zero-tolerance policy and prevent a blogger from hitting the Enter key?


Why not target the Revolution Muslim group, who issued the warnings that brought this whole crisis to bear?

In other words, target the people responsible for sullying free speech, not those who respected it.
Imagine for a moment if an African-American blogger complained about an unfair stereotype in a cartoon in the same crass manner as the Revolution Islam folks. Would free speech advocates respond by hosting a contest to draw as many vile stereotypes of blacks as they could? I can’t imagine that anyone would even propose such an idea. So why, then, are millions of Muslim-Americans who said nothing about South Park in the past decade being subject to this mass insult? To prove a point? What point would that be?

Just last week, Congressman Bart Stupak wrote that he had received so many death threats (that’s actual phoned-in threats, not just one passive-aggressive blog post) that he was advised to beef up his security. It’s safe to assume that most of those death threats were fueled by religious fervor, but since the religion in question isn’t Islam, it gets a pass.

The pro-life movement is generally known as a peaceful movement in the US however they are some fringe elements in the movement who are prepared to use death threats and violence to achieve their goal.

Imagine for a moment if an pro-life activists blogger complained about an unfair stereotype because of these so-called fringe in the pro-life movement in a cartoon. Would free speech advocates respond by hosting a contest to draw as many vile stereotypes of pro-life activists as they could? I can’t imagine that anyone would even propose such an idea. So why, then, are millions of Muslim-Americans who said nothing about South Park in the past decade being subject to this mass insult? To prove a point? What point would that be?

This is pretty much collective punishment on the whole Muslim community for the actions of a few. The inspiration for this event was the threats that the South Park creators received from a group called Revolution Muslim.


There also seems to be a level of incitement, the strange and morbid wish to receive death threats, as the moderator put it, “Did you receive any death threats? If so, post them online and share the fun. ”

"Draw Muhammed" had nothing to do with free speech but everything to do with whining up and making people angry. I see no point in cartoons that are simply meant to offend an entire religious group.

Zack_Tiang said...

Nazam said,
"The fact is that over the course of 10 years, millions of Muslims respected the free speech of South Park and didn’t even lodge a polite complaint with Comedy Central."

I don't know what else has South Park done to Muhammad in the past (10 years?). It's great to know that; though I don't know how true is this.
But what about other shows besides South Park? What about that guy.. Theo Van Gogh? What was it that he did? And what happened to him? When was that? And what happened to his co-writer? Or director, was it? Ali or Anis or something...
What about Lars Vilk? Were those Muslims also RM? I don't recall there being any mention of RM...

Nazam also said,
"Why not target the Revolution Muslim group, who issued the warnings that brought this whole crisis to bear?"

I don't know who were the organizers of the 'Draw a Muhammad' day, and why I don know why they chose this path of action...
But I do understand why they are motivated to do it... and that they wanted to prove that what the Muslims (RM?) are objecting to is based on very selfish reasons; "Screw everybody else, appease us Muslims", and that they wanted to prove that Islam's law against 'images of Muhammad or whoever' is not applicable to everybody else.
And plus, the RM were fighting for MUSLIMS... not only for RM's own agendas.
So, even if 'Draw a Muhammad' day was meant to spite RM's objection to drawing Muhammad, it just pretty much spite every other Muslims, along the way.
Not the fault of the organizer that RM chose to defend/fight for Muslim's right to not be offended.


Just a though, why hasn't Islam fight to stop all drawings/images of animals and people? Why do Muslim homes have family or personal portraits? Didn't Muhammad say "no images/graven images of anything created on earth/under the heaven of any kind"?
what about drawings/depictions of Jesus? Or Simpsons' drawing of God?
Why only limit it to drawing of Muhammad?

Goes to show Muhammad is being held above all, including God/Allah.

Zack_Tiang said...

Nazam said,
"Imagine for a moment if an African-American blogger complained about an unfair stereotype in a cartoon in the same crass manner as the Revolution Islam folks. Would free speech advocates respond by hosting a contest to draw as many vile stereotypes of blacks as they could? I can’t imagine that anyone would even propose such an idea."

You're right, it's hard to imagine. Because that'd be a racial issue. Something out of the African-American's control when they're born.
So it'd make no sense for 'free speech advocates' to do such a thing.

Nazam also said,
"The pro-life movement is generally known as a peaceful movement in the US however they are some fringe elements in the movement who are prepared to use death threats and violence to achieve their goal."

Pro-LIFE movement... using death threats...
I would've called bluff, but I am aware of a case where a man shot an abortionist doctor for his 'late-term abortion' practice.
But in this case, pro-life movement is a 'political' movement.
And they settle things mainly through the political system.
So if anyone resorts to 'draw a vile pro-life activist' event... then it'd make no sense or would make no difference in their pro-life agenda.
Plus, pro-life is fighting for the lives of the unborn; something that's right and fair for EVERYONE (including the unborn).

Let's analyze what are the Muslims fighting for...
1 - Stop the *insert offensive material*!
2 - You canNOT draw 'Muhammad'.
3 - Ban *place of offensive material*!

Hmm... seems that they're only fighting to protect their religious rights, not something fair or right for EVERYONE.
And as someone pointed out, why is it Muslims are allowed to enforce us to do what they want/demand, while we can't force them to do what they do want to do?
South park has been making fun/blaspheming/insulting Jesus Christ (along with other cartoons and TV series and movies) but at most, the TV show gets a censorship from families/churches or a nasty review. Complaints sent to the company too, I'm sure.

The Fat Man said...

Nazzam said...

"The fact is that over the course of 10 years, millions of Muslims respected the free speech of South Park and didn’t even lodge a polite complaint with Comedy Central."

They should of launched a "POLITE COMPLAINT" but they didn't. One can only assume that they weren't paying attention it went un noticed. And if it was noticed? The first episode "Super friends" was right after Muslim Missionary's shared their faith with us on Sept 11th.

Nazam said....
" Why not target the Revolution Muslim group, who issued the warnings that brought this whole crisis to bear? "

Warning? Warning of what? DEATH, thats not a WARNING THATS A THREAT.
The mere fact that you consider it a WARNING tells me that you support them issuing the THREAT.

Nazam said...
In your third paragraph you appealed to racism. I don't know why you continue to do this because to the best of my knowledge Islam and it's prophet are for everyone not just a single race. But your last sentence...

"So why, then, are millions of Muslim-Americans who said nothing about South Park in the past decade being subject to this mass insult? To prove a point? What point would that be?"

Yeah millions of American Muslims said nothing.... They said nothing when Jesus was being insulted not even a "Polite Complaint"

They said nothing Muslims kill over a hundred people the world over and destroyed millions of dollars in property when a Danish news paper published cartoons of Mohamed.

They say nothing when Theo Vangouh was stabbed to death in broad daylight on the streets of Amsterdam.

They said nothing when a Muslim broke into the house of a artist and tried to kill him.

They said nothing when a group of Muslims who brought their woman and children to a showing of pornography depicting their prophet as a homsexual, violently attacked the artist and demanded the film be stopped. And then blamed the violence on those showing the film.

Time and TIME again Muslims say NOTHING not even a "Polite Complaint" against their own when they attack the western way of life.

Nazam said...

"In other words, target the people responsible for sullying free speech, not those who respected it."

Question who sullied free speech and who protected it?

Was RM protecting free speech?
Were the creators of South Park, the Danish Cartoonist's, and all those on FB sullying free speech by invoking and using their GOD GIVEN RIGHT TO FREE SPEECH?

Well I have spent way to much time on this. Nazam read David's prediction, it's comming and the thing that angers me the most, is that it is comming. I DON'T WANT THIS TO HAPPEN. BUT IF IT DOES THEN IT DOES.

The Fat Man said...

I know I said I was done... but I had to respond to this

Nazam said...
This is pretty much collective punishment on the whole Muslim community for the actions of a few. "

So those in the US invoking their FIRST AMENDMENT RIGHT is a collective punishment to Muslims?

Well if this continue's soon people in the US will invoke there 2nd Amendment right.

minoria said...

Hello Nazam:

I think it is more that to irritate Muslims.Many already know about the negative stories regarding Muhamed in Ibn Ishaq and Bukhari.No other religious figure is in such a situation:Jesus,Moses(though he killed in wars),Buddha,even Joseph Smith never killed anybody.For them Mohamed is more MACHIAVELLI than ST. FRANCIS OF ASSISI.The drawings express a sincere opinion about the character of the subject.

Nazam said...

Zack,

(1) Several people are insisting that the problem of violence and threats by Muslims is far greater than, and thus not comparable to, those posed by Christians and Jews. This is just the same form of triabalistic, my-side-is-always-better blindness afflicting Douthat. Who could possibly look at the U.S. and conclude that brutal, inhumane, politically-motivated, designed-to-intimidate violence is a particular problem among Muslims, or that Muslims receive special, unfairly favorable treatment as a result of their intimidation? Do you mean except for the tens of thousands of Muslims whom the U.S. has imprisoned without charges for years, and the hundreds of thousands our wars and invasions and bombings have killed this decade alone, and the ones from around the world subjected to racial and ethnic profiling, and the ones we’ve tortured and shot up at checkpoints and are targeting for state-sponsored assassination?

(2) There’s no question that violence or threatened violence by Islamic radicals against authors, cartoonists and the like is a serious problem. But (a) simply click on the links above — or talk to workers in abortion clinics about the climate in which they work — and try to justify how you can, with a straight face, claim it’s not very pervasive among extremists and fanatics generally, and (b) avoid exaggerating the problem. The group that threatened the South Park creators is a tiny, fringe group founded by a former right-wing Jewish-American settler in the West Bank who converted to Islam and spends most of his time harrassing American Muslims (the former “James Cohen”; h/t Archtype); they’re about as representative of Muslims generally as Fred Phelps and these people are representative of Christians. Moreover, numerous blogs displayed the Mohammed cartoons and plan to do so again; the notion that the Western World is cowering in abject fear from Muslim intimidation is absurdly overblown.

(3) Sarah Palin recently defended the Rev. Franklin Graham’s statement that Islam is “a very evil and wicked religion.” That barely caused a ripple of controversy. Imagine if a leading political figure had said anything remotely similar about Christianity or Judaism. The claim that Muslims receive some sort of special protection or sensitivity is the opposite of reality.

(4) Ross Douthat previously cited with approval Jonah Goldberg’s explicit advocacy of right-wing censorship (h/t sysprog). When Douthat starts speaking out against censorship of ideas he hates, rather than when it comes from the religions he dislikes, he’ll have credibility as what he pretends today to be: a crusader for free expression. Until then, it’s clear that he’s interested in little else other than wrapping himself in the banner of free expression as a means of advancing his sectarian conflicts.

(5) Congressman Bart Stupak wrote that he had received so many death threats (that’s actual phoned-in threats, not just one passive-aggressive blog post) that he was advised to beef up his security. The story is not just a bluff but you can type his name up on the web.

When you have over a billion Muslims from almost every corner of the globe, you are always going to have extremist that the media will focus upon.

I have so much more to say but I'll leave it for now and make more points later during the day.



Nazam

Nazam said...

Fatman,

I humbly disagree with you that the Muslim community is silent when it comes to such things. There are many who have spoken out, both from America as well as from the same countries you talk about. Could more be done? Certainly. But are they silent? No, that’s just the feeling people get when only Revolution Muslims are given airtime.

abel said...

Nazam,

Its interesting reading through some of your comments.The problem is that there are many muslims who turn violent even when its logical critisism of their region.Its worse when they can't defend their religion logically.Believe me they are not violent just because someone makes fun of the "holy prophet",many can't stomach logical critisism.Of course no sane brave person will give in to such ignorant demands.

Nazam said...

Robert (Minoria),

Not all prophets mention in the Bible killed in war/battle.

For example in the Bible we read about God sending two bears to rip apart 42 boys for making fun out of Elijah's bald head.

"And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.
And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them." (2 Kings 2:23-4)

You see this wasn't even done in a battle, Elijah could have just walked away. Instead, he turned around and cursed them in the name of the Lord.

Violence only disqualifies the Quran only if it also disqualifies the Bible. And before I am accused of the 'you too' fallacy, "People who live in glass houses...",etc.

"The drawings express a sincere opinion about the character of the subject."

"Draw Muhammed" was done for most people to cheese of Muslims and sharing your death threats for fun with others.

In other words, it had nothing to do with criticism but everything to do with whining up and making people angry.

Zack_Tiang said...

Nazam said,
"For example in the Bible we read about God sending two bears to rip apart 42 boys for making fun out of Elijah's bald head.

"And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.
And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them." (2 Kings 2:23-4)

You see this wasn't even done in a battle, Elijah could have just walked away. Instead, he turned around and cursed them in the name of the Lord."

No... It's not true. it was Elisha, not Elijah.

Will comment further next time. I'm bad at American current events or history (since I'm not American, but Asian)

The Fat Man said...

Nazam said...
Fatman,

I humbly disagree with you that the Muslim community is silent when it comes to such things. There are many who have spoken out, both from America as well as from the same countries you talk about. Could more be done? Certainly. But are they silent? No, that’s just the feeling people get when only Revolution Muslims are given airtime.

Where, WHEN? What we get from Muslims who condemn such behavior are words like the following

"We condemn the killing of all innocent people."

Or "I condemn any Killing that is not sanctioned by GOD"

This is code we know it, only Muslims are innocent and the killing of Kuffar is sanctioned by GOD.

Then after this "CONDEMNATION" blame the victim. "If the US wouldn't do this or that... Or "If you just would of listened to us and not done what you did... Or "you should of stopped the movie I told you to stop it but you didn't listen to me"

Even your own words....

"Why not target the Revolution Muslim group, who issued the warnings ..." So you consider a DEATH THREAT A WARNING? You chose this word "WARNING" to describe a death threat this implies justification.

I gave a condemnation on another post when the FBI arrested those nuts in Michigan. I condemned them out right with out hesitation, with out reservation. I made sure to totally disown them from any Christian faith, I said that I hope they are prosecuted with extreme PREJUDICE to fullest extent of the law. I praised the Federal Agents for taking these nuts off the street before they hurt themselves or anyone else.

What I did not do is say word's to the effect of "Well they were just issuing a warning... or "the US gov. needs to stop taxing people... or sympathies with any of their grievances.

Now to be fair, there have been Muslims who have responded to Muslim Missionaries. There was just recently a Muslim who wanted a rally he advertised it on Facebook, got media attention. Only 50 people showed up. David Posted the video.

There was another guy who after 9-11 in Huston I believe wanted to show Muslim American loyalty to their country. Only 13 showed up.

Another Muslim tried the same thing, went to Mosqs to speak and was black listed.

Nazam we in the west are no threat to you. The ones that are a threat to you are the ones that Muslims time and time again fail yes FAIL to condemn in any meaningful way. Nazam you will be the first victim of true Islam.

Nazam said...

Zack,
thanks for the correction, my bad as they say in the west!

Zack_Tiang said...

Nasam said,
"You see this wasn't even done in a battle, Elisha** could have just walked away. Instead, he turned around and cursed them in the name of the Lord.

Violence only disqualifies the Quran only if it also disqualifies the Bible. And before I am accused of the 'you too' fallacy, "People who live in glass houses...",etc."


We have no problems with our prophets or kings being sinners. That just shows that they are like everyone else and that they still need Christ in their lives.

Then you'll probably turn to the Old Testaments and start quoting verses that showed God telling His people to slaughter/kill every men, women and children, etc etc...

Then I'll borrow the rebuttals given by Answering Muslims or Answering-Islam... God had given those people (to be killed) ample of time to repent and turn away from their sin and condoning of sin.
Plus, in my own opinion/speculation, there were 'gene pool' problems too with the Nephilims episode and all that, but that's a whole 'nother topic.


Christians have no problem with having people amongst us who choose the wrong actions, cause our God and His word is still there and unchanged; we can always turn to His Word and correct/rebuke them.

However, Muslims can't do the same with the Quran, because:
1 - Muhammad was a warmonger who is willing to use deception in the name of Allah to achieve his goals. (Our God is not a deceiver, while Allah is.)
2 - Muhammad taught his people that non-Muslims are to be looked down and even scorned upon. Non-Muslims are of less or no value at all to Allah.
3 - Nowhere in the Quran is there a verse that teaches unconditional love. Unconditional! Be it towards Allah or others. (My research on this is minimal, so I lay this one to be either supported by others, or corrected by you, but please quote references for my checking. thx)

Nazam said...

Zack from your response, you seem to be saying that Elisha did this and not God?

Now keep in mind, no man has any such supernatural power besides God. Remember Moses? Did he turn a snake into a staff and vice versa? Did Moses have this power? Or was it God? Exactly! Most say it was power bestowed by God. Therefore, God's power was responsible. God is the true source of the curses and miracles in the Bible. Sadly, the Bible never condemns Elisha for this act. And why not? Because God did it and you can't chastise God?

Children can say some crazy stuff now and again but I would never sic some wild animals on them for being kids.

The 2 Kings 2:23 story is a reminder of the vengeful, blood-thirsty mindset many believers had during that period.

The making of the New Testament timing is just right though. As societies began to grow and become more sophisticated and more morally conscious,Yahweh simply did not have the same appeal. Jesus is ushered in as a much needed political replacement. The New Testament however, isn't a replacement for the Old Testament. In fact Jesus makes it clear in:

Matthew 5:18-19
"Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or tittle shall nowise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven."

So Jesus himself supports many of the OT laws. Isn't this the same God then? Breaking OT laws is punishable by death in most cases.

Is Jesus Yahweh?
Some Christian churches teach that Jesus was here with God since the beginning. In fact, it's believed by many that Jesus is the god Yahweh. But if true, doesn't this mean that Jesus condoned 2 Kings 2:23?

My original point to Minoria was not to criticise the Bible but only to illustrate point that "people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones". I actually believe that the Bible is a very beautiful book.

The Berean Search said...

Nazam,

I'm trying to follow your logic on what the incident with Elisha has to do with Muslims threatening to kill people and rioting over cartoons. You're also talking about profiling, detentions, foreign and domestic policy issues....you are all over the place man! I have to tell you, to the observer this looks like someone who is having trouble coming to terms with the reality of the situation: Millions of Muslims have been outraged and moved to violence over cartoons, and they are doing it with the support of Islamic history and the actions of Muhammad.

Also, you have repeated the same argument in multiple places on the blog about Muslims not being "able to stop bloggers from pressing the enter key", and how Muslims did the "right thing" for years regarding cartoons of Muhammad.

This argument is a fail. The issue isn't even the actions of Muslims regarding the cartoons. The real issue is the teachings of Islam regarding criticism of Muhammad. If Islam didn't teach what it teaches about critics of Muhammad (that they deserve death), none of this would have happened. That's right Nazam, thanks to Islam we have people that believe its justified to kill someone for what they draw.

Q: How long should Muslims hold back from violence in response to drawing Muhammad?

A: Forever.

Sorry, but your community fell a long way short of forever, and because of this, as a community you have corporately failed at being good citizens of the U.S. and participants in a free society.

This isn't just about Revolution Muslim. We already had the Danish cartoon controversy which resulted in many deaths and violent riots. Now the same antisocial behavior and barbarism that caused those events has found its way into the U.S., and guess what the vehicle for the antisocial and barbaric behavior is? Islam.

Zack_Tiang said...

Nazam said,
"Zack from your response, you seem to be saying that Elisha did this and not God?"

Honestly, I have not much knowledge regarding that event, as I've not gone into more detailed studies on the Old Testament books.

So I shall lead you to some articles I came across that talk about this particular event with the 2 bears and Elisha.

Her's one study: http://bible.org/seriespage/elisha-and-two-bears-2-kings-223-25
And here's another where Christians discuss their opinions on this passage: http://bibleforums.org/archive/index.php/t-189241.html

Probably insufficient, but very much plausible explanations.

Brief summary: the 'children' may not have been translated accurately, but actually meant "young men", meaning they'd be at an accountable age and not mocking Elisha out of their ignorance as youths. Apparently some studies reveal that these young men may have been apprentices/prophets in the pagan temples there, but I'll need more information.

Baldness apparently is a sign of being worthless and also, these young men may have actually been mocking Elijah's ascension to heaven; "Go on up"/"Go up" (which means mocking God directly).

And 'curse' did not mean 'swearing with vile words', but Elisha *pray* to God to punish these young lads and God honored his *prayer*.
God would not have answered it otherwise, if it was out of vengeance or malice in Elisha.


That's as much as I understand regarding this event, and I'm sorry that I can't provide a better response at the moment, as I will need more reading up or 'researching'.
But I trust that God has His reasons to tell us about this event; otherwise He'd never have mentioned it.

Maybe someone else who knows more about this episode can share with us?

Nazam said...

The B.Search,

I was addressing something that Minoria said in his last post, which is how the discussion got into "God sends two she-bears to kill 42 children for making fun out of Elisha" (2 Kings 2:23).

Unfortunately I am going to have get ready for work but I'll get back to you later during the day, God willing.

Nazam said...

Ok, so I've been addressing several Christians here, almost all at the same time. Various points were made to which I felt the need to reply back too. This is why it might appear to someone coming here for the first time that I've drifted to other territory.


The reality is that South Park has already portrayed an uncensored Muhammad in 2001, in an episode entitled “Super Best Friends”.
In fact, the image of the Prophet Muhammad was not only used in that episode, but appeared in the opening segment of the show for four entire seasons. What was the Muslim reaction? Nothing. Absolutely nothing happened. No protests, no riots, and no death threats. The Muslim American community shrugged it off, as they did the recent episode (barring the Revolution “Muslim” group). Muslim columnist Zahed Amanullah wrote an article for the Guardian entitled “No [Muslim] freak-out over South Park”, saying:
But has there really been any Muslim outrage? The characterisation of Muhammad in a July 2001 episode entitled “Super Best Friends“, where he teams up with Jesus, Moses, and Buddha to defeat evil (even though Buddha “doesn’t really believe in evil”), has been available for viewing online (if not on a spooked Comedy Central) for nine years without censorship, more than enough time to spark another cartoon crisis if Muslims really cared. As should be obvious by now, they don’t.
Somehow “a couple of misfits” from Revolution Muslim are allowed to smear the entire Muslim Amercan community. The reality is that the vast majority of Muslims in this country barely flinched when they heard of South Park’s intention to portray the Prophet Muhammad. Anderson Cooper covered Revolution Muslim months ago, and at that time he had concluded that “it’s just a bunch of, you know, four morons standing on the street corner, shouting at the top of their lungs–how many people are really listening?” That summation of Revolution Muslim, “four morons standing on [a] street corner”, is exactly how Muslim Americans view them as. Yet flash forward to the recent Cooper report and there is no mention of this fact, and they are instead portrayed as spokesmen of Islam.


In any case, the idea that only Muslims have ever threatened people for portraying their prophet in a certain way is false to begin with. The indefatigable Glenn Greenwald decimated this argument here;

http://www.loonwatch.com/2010/04/glenn-greenwald-on-the-south-park-controversy/


For example, he mentions a play by the name of Corpus Christi which was canceled several times, due to death threats from extremist Christians. It is clearly not a Muslim only problem, and ought not to be used as a stick to beat Muslims over the head with. Ms. Ali takes this stick not only to all observant Muslims, but to all of Islam itself. On Cooper’s show, she claims that the Islamic scripture itself advocates killing those who criticize the religion. Last I checked, the Islamic scripture is the Quran, and not a single verse in it advocates such a thing. In fact, we find quite the opposite; the Quran commands believers to say “peace be unto you” to those who insult their religion. In the Islamic holy book, God describes the righteous:
They are patient, and repel evil with good…When they hear vile ridicule (against their faith), they ignore it and say: “We shall have our deeds and you shall have your deeds; peace be unto you!” (Quran, 28:54-55)

Nazam said...

Fatman,

this is to your last posting.
I agree with you that Muslims could do more but at the same time it's false to say that all Muslims are silence when it comes to extremism.

For example, Honour Muhammed's Facebook page was a page set up for Muslims to respond in a peaceful way to the 'Draw Muhammed Day' campaign.

I agree with you that it is not just enough for Muslims to condemn the killing of innocent civilians but we need more practical steps.

But at the same time Muslims in general are no more pro-active when it comes to dealing with extremist than Christians are when it comes to dealing with their own extremist.

Only last month Anthony Hopkins, a Christian preacher in Alabama, was arrested for allegedly killing his wife. According to officials, Hopkins is thought to have killed her after she confronted him about sexually molesting children, an act that he justified by invoking the Bible.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5i5ohz8_sBc7YIMGqwhWPj6843mggD9FRA66O2

At the start of this year, Collin McKenzie-Gude who was sentenced to five years in prison for plotting to kill the president.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/01/19/AR2010011904460.html

Can you imagine if he had been Muslim? The media outlets would become frenetic, the Islamophobes would have a field day, and the right wing in general would be fear mongering about the looming Islamic threat. The people would be panic stricken, the alert levels would be raised to florescent super red, and pregnant women would miscarry. Muslims would react by saying “oh no, not another one…” Fox “News” would begin debating the issue of racial profiling, and Robert Spencer would sign another book deal.

When a twenty year old Christian does something like this, then he’s just an immature child. When a twenty year old Muslim does something like this, then he’s a diabolical terrorist.

In my own area where I live, we have had three or four Mosques vandalized by a Christian (s). He painted on the walls of the Mosques some reference to the book of Revelation which I forget now, but it had something to do with the second coming of Christ.

Finally, I don't believe that Jesus would have believe in free speech in the same way you believe in. For example Jesus did not believe in free speech for disobedient children. He said "Honour your Mother and Father and anyone who curses his parents must be put to death". (Mt 15:3).

The Berean Search said...

Nazam,

You have mis-identified what "free speech" is. It has nothing to do with a child's right to insult their parents, and you will never find a single legal ruling to back up this straw-man that you just presented. Also, whether or not Jesus had the modern American notion of free speech is absolutely irrelevant. The New Testament is very clear that Christians are commanded to abide by the civil laws of the secular government - It was true in the days of Rome and it is still true today - and this includes preserving and respecting lawful free speech.

You are still working overtime to avoid facing the obvious. When groups like Revolution Muslim call for people's death for drawing Muhammad they are doing it with the support of Islamic teachings. Did you not bother to notice that in the youtube video they released they spent a great deal of time quoting a respected classical Islamic comentater and referring to Quran and Hadith? The root of the problem is not what Muslims do, it is what Islam teaches.

And you continue to try to refer to members of other religious groups who have done bad things as though this will somehow remove the burden of culpability from Islam. It will not.

Let me inform you a little about social dynamics. When a subculture (in this example, Islam) is seen by the dominant culture as engaging in antisocial acts there is an unspoken agreement that takes place. The unspoken agreement is that the members of the subculture will reform the behavior. When this does not happen, people become suspicious of the subculture. Next, with continued failure to act people become angry. Finally, when the members of the subculture show they are not interested in reforming the antisocial behavior the dominant culture decides to do it from the outside. If the subculture resists the reforming is done through various means that in serious situations can include violence.

Nazam, it may very well be a quarter to midnight for Muslims to act in good faith on this unspoken social contract by dealing with their own problems. I worry a great deal about what will happen when the clock strikes midnight for the genuinely peaceful Muslims who have no desire but to remain peaceful. I can also tell you that you do not want to provoke the self-preservation instinct of a society steeped in decades of secular-humanism and moral relativism. This is genuine concern here Nazam.