Sheikh Awal hasn't made an official decision on whether to debate me or not. He said he will give me an answer later this week. However, the debates will go forward one way or another. If Sheikh Awal decides not to debate (and he is under no obligation to take part in debates he doesn't want to take part in), Osama Abdallah has agreed to step in. I know some of the readers here (this means you Bartimaeus!) aren't fans of Osama due to his comments on this blog; nevertheless, I've never had a problem with Osama in person. Hence, while I would love to debate Sheikh Awal since I have not debated him previously, I appreciate Osama's willingness to see the debates go forward one way or another.
On a different note, Ministry to Muslims is conducting training on Wednesday, Thursday, and Friday (June 16th-18th). Sam, Tony Costa, and I will be doing the training. Let us know if you're interested in attending.
I personally don't have a problem with Osama. When we were in Ottawa a group of us had dinner together and he was quite polite. What I object to is his behavior in public debates. In Ottawa debate he called Nabeel a liar and of and made crude remarks about the bible. Also I don't think he is a good debater. Tony pointed out that he gets a lot of his material from prophets google and wikipedia. But bring it on and if he wants to get beat up again so be it. I am sure that you will anilalate him and Osama will be Osama.
To be honest, I don't believe we should entertain people like Osamah Abdullah. His vile language and his 'sexual addiction' isn't benificial nor scholarly. I much rather see you give some lectures than debating people like Osama abdullah and the likes. I hope Sheikh anwal will chance his mind although his arguments aren't much better than that of Osama.
Anyways, May god bless you all for your efforts to proclaim the Mighty Gospel of our Lord.
There is a positive side to debating Osama. Osama represents the level of argumentation that you get from most Muslims on the street and certianly on Paltalk.
You expressed my misgiving about Osama better than I did. His vile and crude behaviour do not help in meaningful dialogue. But maybe Omama will behave himself this time so that there can be a meaningful debate.
And Osama if you wish I will treat you to lunch and we can engage in mature adult conversation.
Talk about double standards by FACEBOOK.I just learned somebody there (info from jihadwatch)has started an"Everybody Draw the Holocaust Day".
Will Facebook issue a declaration saying WHY it's ok to satirize a HISTORICAL figue(like Ceaser,Alex the Great,Napoleon,Muhammed) and WHY it is immoral to satirize the death of 6 million innocents?
MORE DRAWINGS ON OTHER THEMES
I bet NOT.Then why not have an "Everybody Draw AFRICAN SLAVERY and SLAVE TRADE DAY"?
Or "Everybody Draw a RAPING of WOMEN Day?"
I bet Facebook's president will say:"Everybody Draw Moh. Day" is the SAME as "Everybody Draw Slavery/Raping Women Day."You can bet on it.
Thank GOD that we have 6 debates to WIN. There is no way any rational person could debate the subjects that David Wood brought up and stil be called a "thinking person".
I would love to be a participant in witnessing to muslims with training from you, Sam, and Tony. By the way I met Tony about 4 or 5 weeks ago at MissionFest in Toronto. Like yourself and Sam, he is an extremely gifted speaker and debater and presents solid arguments. My only concern at this time is the actual dates for the ministry work and hotel cost. I recently became "A Father" (a cute little baby girl; so money is extremely tight for me right now; however by The Grace of GOD I hope I can support the cause. I'll keep you posted as the time approaches. My email address is available to you if needed. GOD bless your ministry.
FOR HIS GLORY!!
For sure Islam is not a thinking man's religion. It is based on blind belief. You must submit no questions asked. Osama is a classic example 'don't confuse with the facts just give me Allah, Mohammed, and the Quran.
WOO! The debates are back on!! I was hoping something like this would happen. Glad Osama stepped up to the plate.
P.S. Congratulations, Reconciled, on the new baby girl!
There are three or four of us going to Dearborn from Toronto. If you are interested in going let me know and maybe I can work something out so you can come Dearborn with us. But you got to let me know ASAP.
This is excellent news!
I too would prefer to hear Sheikh Awal debate these topics as opposed to Mr. Abdallah. I've heard Osama's style of argumentation on topics related to these before and would prefer to hear from a new debater.
Let's hope Shiekh Awal decides to debate the topics scheduled with David!
can someone post this link, similar to Rifqa bury, young muslim gal converts to christianity.
I think what you really need to do is have a debate on methodology in the study of religion. This seems to always be the only argument that your opponents seem to really bring against you.
The debate will supposed to be about whether or not Muhammad was violent, and instead you guys end up in a back-and-forth over sources and 'interpretation'. I think if you established first for your audience the traditional Islamic method of study, it'd make the "Who's Ibn Kathir?" canards that much more transparent.
It was a thought, but I'm not sure how it would work, or if it would actually be helpful. Oh well.
Love in Christ,
"I think what you really need to do is have a debate on methodology in the study of religion. This seems to always be the only argument that your opponents seem to really bring against you."
Good point,(whole post).
wow i was just reading comments from previous posts and i must say that AMR, HAMZA NEED TO STUDY THEIR SOURCES MORE.
CMON MAN HOW REDILCIOUS CAN U GET TELLING THE GIRL TO CONVERT TO ISLAM NOT BECAUSE ITS PEACEFUL AND ALL THAT BUT BECAUSE IF SHE DOESNT SHE WILL BE KILLED BASICLY.
I THINK U NEED TO GO BACK TO GRADE 1 CAUSE I REALLY DONT KNOW WHICH LAME SOURCES YOUR GETTING YOUR INFO FROM. U REALLY SHOULD TAKE YOUR HEAD OUTTA THAT QURAN AND STUDY YOUR HISTORY.
I NEED AN ANSWER TO MY QUESTION WHICH I HAVE POSTED IN THE PREVIOUS POST
Thank you for your reply; but how would we go about making this arrangement happen? Since I recently became a father so I'm not absolutely sure I could be away for the entire duration of this event. I believe The GOD we serve is a way maker, so we'll see. GOD bless you, and I look forward to hearing from you soon.
FOR HIS GLORY!!
This is such wonderful news! Can't wait for the debates, hope and pray everything will turn out good.
Why do you think that you get to insult Muslims?
Why do you think that you get to make demands of the few Muslims bold enough to post here?
It would seem to me that you have yet to feel the sting of the nails or the price of what they purchased. I would only hope God reveal that to you.
Until he does though, you don't need to treat every Muslim as though they were Muhammad themselves. Most of them probably have no idea these things about Muhammad, some of them probably inwardly disagree greatly with their prophet and cover it up and deny it wishfully because they don't want to believe it, and I would say that it is a minority of Muslims who know the teachings and actions of their prophet and truly affirm them in their hearts. Yeah, Muslims need to read their sources and take their sources seriously, but insulting their reading comprehension is completely irrelevant to addressing that.
And the "Muslims are my dhimma" attitude needs to stop now.
"For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms."
- Ephesians 6:12
Love in Christm
Hello John Lollard:
Regarding your comments to Simon and his attitude to Muslims it is more complicated.Nazam and Hamza have said nice things but Simon wants more clarity.
In the Muslim forum I participate in they say Islam is goodness YET Maria(a Muslim) told me Al-Qaida was invented by the US.
TODAY Badr,another Muslim woman,told me the suicide bombers against civilians in Israel are NOT by Hamas,but a dirty campaign of the Israeli government.
JORGE,a leftist non-Muslim,says the "old men,women and children"killed by Hamas are NOT innocent,they are legitimate targets.
None of the OTHER Muslims ever says:"I disagree".
I am not saying Hamza,Amir and Nazam agree but holy crap,the MODERATOR does not even gently reproach Maria,Badr,Jorge for their anti-human rights ideas.And the website is supposedly a "moderate" Muslim one.
At least I have posted 200 posts there.Has it done any good?I know some 40 read the posts do maybe.
I just read that our beloved Rifqa is going to have surgery on Thursday for uterine cancer,and her life is at risk,she could die.
I read it all at atlasshrugs.Pray for her,she is only 2 1/2 months from her 18th birthday.And pray she also does not get deported when she is 18.
i have felt the sting. when my home back in pakistan was attacked.im sorry if i get mad at muslims but im a human being. ur right john this blaming everything on muslims need to stop. where does a person need to cross the line? theres 1 thing ive learned with all muslims is that even if they dont know what they believe in they all still stand together for this false religion. and by the way its the majority of the muslims that do know what the quranic teachings r and very few of them notice it. that is was u wonder y i go into rage against muslims. im sure they have the answers to all my questions.
I'm sorry if I was harsh. I understand where that kind of anger can come from, when so much wrong has been done by Muslims and done in accordance with the explicit teachings of a false and evil religion.
"We must tell people that no pit is so deep that He is not deeper still." - Corrie ten Boom, a Christian holocaust survivor
I feel now that I was rather proud in what I said. I should try to be more humble. Ironically, I tend to have great zeal about remaining irenic.
I was just thinking, supposing I was a Muslim on the verge of changing my faith, very much in doubt and full of insecurity. If someone starting at me with a barrage of questions meant to provoke how vile my faith was, I don't think it would lead me to truth, but rather just cause me to put up walls around my doubt and go on an irrational defensive. And once we put a Muslim on an irrational defensive, it will be very difficult to convince them to turn to reason again.
I guess I'm just a worrier. Maybe I shouldn't be.
Love in Christ,
David Wood, Bartimaeus and all,
Let me just clarify something for you and for everyone here:
1- The reason why I accepted to debate isn't to make a name for myself at all. It is rather to make sure that when these debates are televised, or are spread around on youtube on on CDs/DVDs, ISLAM IS WELL-DEFENDED.
2- So don't think that I am this expendable loser that you can always go back to when all options are gone. Defending Islam is the only thing that matters to me, and quite frankly, I don't think people like Nadir Ahmed and Farhan Qureshi are qualified to defend Islam. In Ottawa, Farhan declared that it is possible that Joseph is JESUS' FATHER. He also had no idea about the Noble Verses that speak about Mary letting the baby speak for him/itself to prove that it was a Miracle EVEN EXISTED IN THE QURAN! That's what I got out of him when I argued with him (we both argued in loud voices) after the debate. And he mocked, with smirks and funny looks, the DNA pool (during the debate), saying that it is impossible for Jesus' DNA to be only from a woman, as if GOD Almighty is not capable of making Miracles, and even turning him (Farhan) into an ape or swine in an instant. I wonder how his DNA would be like then.
Did not Allah Almighty turn evil doers from non-Jews, and the Sabbath breakers and Moses revilers, from the Jews, into pigs and monkies, Farhan? What happened to their DNAs.
So because of such ignorant jokers and heretics, David Wood, I'll debate you. I don't want for their junk to spread over the internet. I know that I have the knowledge and the skills to thorughly refute you in any debate, and I look forward to doing:
1- Is the Quran a Scientific Miracle?
2- Is Muhammad a True Prophet?
again with you. And this time, will you post the "Is the Quran a Scientific Miracle?" debate on your site? Or will you, again, be too embarrased to do it?
I also don't deny that you and Nabeel are very polite and very friendly, in person.
In person and on the net, I am what I am, a nice person. During the debate, I exposed the bible's pornography, corruption, deliberate mistranslations to several key-words and other things. My intention wasn't to offend anyone. I speak the Truth regardless of whom it offends. Just like you oppose to Islam and our Prophet, you have to also accept people opposing to the beliefs that you cherish.
It is never my intention to get into childish fights and name-callings. I try to present the Truth and argue with facts. If I come across offensive, then I sincerely apologize. It is not my intention. But I will not back down or compromise my beliefs for anyone.
"Did not Allah Almighty turn evil doers from non-Jews, and the Sabbath breakers and Moses revilers, from the Jews, into pigs and monkies, Farhan?"
I don't recall of any such events... especially in the bible. Can anyone enlighten me what is Osama referring to, please (and thank you)?
I know and understand that you're very passionate about Islam and the 'Noble'(?) Quran (personally, Osama is the only Muslim (or just anyone) I know of that calls them noble verses, noble etc).
But I find your arguments and your 'researches' on the bible and its verses to be very insufficient, often taken out of context (practically all the time), and packed full of your biased opinions. (e.g. Isaiah 53, mistranslated and meant to be put to arrest only??)
I'm sorry, Osama. If any Muslim comes my way and quotes your articles, I will often BEG them not to resort to your articles, cause you're not doing a good job of defending Islam or the Quran.
Hope you'll improve yourself with your researching. And may God bless you and your journey to seek the truth.
Surah [7:166] When in their insolence they [the Jews] transgressed (all) prohibitions, We said to them: "Be ye apes, despised and rejected."
Tafsir Ibn Kathir [7:166] Those Who breached the Sabbath were turned into Monkeys, but Those Who prohibited Their Actions were saved. Allah said that the people of this village were divided into three groups, a group that committed the prohibition, catching fish on the Sabbath, as we described in the Tafsir of Surat Al-Baqarah. Another group prohibited them from transgression and avoided them. A third group neither prohibited them, nor participated in their action.
The third group said to the preachers, ("Why do you preach to a people whom Allah is about to destroy or to punish with a severe torment''). They said, `why do you forbid these people from evil, when you know that they are destroyed and have earned Allah's punishment' Therefore, they said, there is no benefit in forbidding them.
The preachers replied, ("In order to be free from guilt before your Lord (Allah),'') `for we were commanded to enjoin righteousness and forbid evil,' ("and perhaps they may fear Allah'') for on account of our advice, they might stop this evil and repent to Allah. Certainly, if they repent to Allah, Allah will accept their repentance and grant them His mercy.'
Allah said, (So when they forgot the reminder that had been given to them, ) when the evil doers refused the advice, (We rescued those who forbade evil, but We seized who did wrong,) who committed the transgression, (with a severe torment). Allah stated that those who enjoined good were saved, while those who committed the transgression were destroyed, but He did not mention the end of those who were passive (the third group), for the compensation is comparable to the deed. This type did not do what would warrant praise, nor commit wrong so that they are admonished.
`Ikrimah said, "Ibn `Abbas said about the Ayah: `I do not know whether or not the people were saved who said; ("Why do you preach to a people whom Allah is about to destroy...'') So I continued discussing it with him until I convinced him that they were. Then he gave me [the gift of] a garment.''
Allah said, (and We seized those who did wrong with a Ba'is torment) indicating that those who remained were saved. As for `Ba'is', it means `severe', according to Mujahid, or `painful', according to Qatadah. These meanings are synonymous, and Allah knows best.
Allah said next, (despised), humiliated, disgraced and rejected.
Tafsir al Jalalayn [7:166] And when they disdained, to desist from, that which was prohibited to them, We said to them, ‘Be apes, despised!’, abased, and they became so: this is an explication of what preceded [with regard to the details of their ‘grievous chastisement’]. Ibn ‘Abbās said, ‘I do not know what befell the group that abstained’. ‘Ikrima said, ‘That group was not destroyed because they had been averse to what the others did and had said, ‘Why do you preach (admonition) …’ Al-Hākim reported [in a hadīth] that he [‘Ikrima] referred this opinion to Ibn ‘Abbās, who was delighted by it.
Surah [2:65]And you had already known about those who transgressed among you concerning the sabbath, and We said to them, "Be apes, despised."
Ibn Kathir [2:65] The Jews breach the Sanctity of the Sabbath. Allah said, (And indeed you knew). This Ayah means, O Jews! Remember that Allah sent His torment on the village that disobeyed Him and broke their pledge and their covenant to observe the sanctity of the Sabbath. They began using deceitful means to avoid honoring the Sabbath by placing nets, ropes and artificial pools of water for the purpose of fishing before the Sabbath.
When the fish came in abundance on Saturday as usual, they were caught in the ropes and nets for the rest of Saturday. During the night, the Jews collected the fish after the Sabbath ended. When they did that, Allah changed them from humans into monkeys, the animals having the form closest to humans. Their evil deeds and deceit appeared lawful on the surface, but they were in reality wicked.
This is why their punishment was compatible with their crime. This story is explained in detail in Surat Al-A`raf, where Allah said: (7:163), (And ask them (O Muhammad ) about the town that was by the sea; when they transgressed in the matter of the Sabbath (i.e. Saturday): when their fish came to them openly on the Sabbath day, and did not come to them on the day they had no Sabbath. Thus We made a trial of them, for they used to rebel (disobey Allah).)
In his Tafsir, Al-`Awfi reported from Ibn `Abbas that he said, (We said to them: "Be you monkeys, despised and rejected'') means, "Allah changed their bodies into those of monkeys and swines. The young people turned into monkeys while the old people turned into swine.''
Shayban An-Nahwi reported that Qatadah commented on, (We said to them: "Be you monkeys, despised and rejected''), "These people were turned into howling monkeys with tails, after being men and women.''
Tafsir al Jalalayn [2:65] And verily (wa-la-qad: the lām is for oaths) you know that there were those among you who transgressed, violated, the Sabbath, by fishing, when We had forbidden you to do so — these were the inhabitants of Eilat — and We said to them, ‘Be apes, despised!’, rejected, and they became so: they died three days later.
Surah [5:60] Then say: "Should I inform you [People of the Book] of those, who will have even worse recompense from Allah than the transgressors? They are those whom Allah has cursed; who have been under His wrath; some of whom were turned into apes and swine; who worshipped taghut [the devil or idols]; those are the people who are in a far worse plight and who have turned farthest away from the Right Way."
Tafsir ibn Kathir [5:60] The People of the Scriptures Deserve the Worst Torment on the Day of Resurrection. Allah said next, (Say: "Shall I inform you of something worse than that, regarding the recompense from Allah")
The Ayah commands the Prophet to say: Shall I inform you about a worse people with Allah on the Day of Resurrection than what you think of us They are you, with these characteristics, (those who incurred the curse of Allah) were expelled from His mercy, (and who incurred His wrath) and anger, after which He will never be pleased with them, those of whom He transformed into monkeys and swine,) as we mentioned in Surat Al-Baqarah (2) and as we will mention in Surat Al-A`raf (7).
Sufyan Ath-Thawri narrated that Ibn Mas`ud said, "Allah's Messenger was asked if the current monkeys and swine were those whom Allah transformed. He said (Allah never destroyed a people by transforming them and making offspring or descendants for them. The monkeys and swine existed before that.)'' This was also recorded by Muslim.
Allah said, (Those who worshipped Taghut...) and served them, becoming their servants. The meaning of this Ayah is: you, O People of the Scriptures, who mock our religion, which consists of Allah's Tawhid, and singling Him out in worship without others, how can you mock us while these are your characteristic.
This is why Allah said, (such are worse in rank...) than what you -- People of the Scriptures -- think of us Muslims, (and far more astray from the straight path.) `More' in the Ayah does not mean that the other party is `less' astray, but it means that the People of the Scriptures are far astray.
In another Ayah, Allah said, (The dwellers of Paradise will, on that Day, have the best abode, and have the fairest of places for repose.)
Tafsir al Jalalayn [5:60] Say: ‘Shall I tell you, [shall] I inform you, of what is worse than, the followers of, that, about which you are spiteful, by way of reward, requital, from God? They are, those whom God has cursed, [whom] He has removed from His mercy, and with whom He is wroth, and some of whom He has turned into apes and swine, by transformation, and, those who, worship the false deity, Satan, by obeying him (the particle minhum, ‘some of whom’, takes into account the [potentially plural] import of the particle min, ‘[those] whom’, and in what precedes [minhum, ‘some of whom’], the [singular] form [of min is taken into account]; a variant reading has ‘abuda al-tāghūt as [the genitive of] an annexation, ‘abud being a [variant] plural of ‘abd; the accusative ending [of ‘abuda] is because the clause is a supplement to al-qirada, ‘apes’), and these were the Jews. They are worse situated (makānan is for specification), for their abode shall be the Fire, and further astray from the even way’, from the path of truth (al-sawā’ originally means al-wasat, ‘middle’); the use of sharrun, ‘worse’, and adallu, ‘further astray’, is intended to counter their saying, ‘We know of no religion worse [sharrun] than yours’.
Wow.... thank you for all those verses.... that's a load...
Seems none quoted from the Bible. Thank God.
Thank you, Osama, for stepping up to the plate in order to continue the interfaith dialog. Much appreciated.
Osama, I don't recall suggesting or even thinking that you are an "expendable loser that you can always go back to when all options are gone."
If you read what I wrote, I said that I would rather debate Sheikh Awal because I haven't debated him before, whereas I have debated you several times. I don't see how this is an insult.
If you'd like my assessment of your debating ability, I'd be happy to give it to you. But please don't see insults where there are none.
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