Tuesday, August 11, 2009

Fathima Rifqa Bary--Convert Flees from Muslim Parents

This girl rocks.



It's interesting that many liberals in the West believe she should be returned to her parents. "Silly girl," they think. "She doesn't understand Islam. No one will hurt her if she goes home." But Fathima knows better.

Sahih al-Bukhari 6878—Narrated Abdullah: Allah’s Messenger said, “The blood of a Muslim who confesses that La ilaha illallah (none has the right to be worshipped but Allah) and that I am the Messenger of Allah, cannot be shed except in three cases: (1) Life for life; (2) a married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse, and (3) the one who turns renegade from Islam (apostate) and leaves the group of Muslims.

Sahih al-Bukhari 6921—Ibn Umar, Az-Zuhri and Ibrahim said, “A female apostate (who reverts from Islam), should be killed.”

Sahih al-Bukhari 6922—Allah’s Messenger [said], “Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.”

85 comments:

Unknown said...

compare this to ISNA ad: Islam promotes Freedom !! really ?! yeh right!!

Patrice said...

poor girl. She is so brave. This shows Islam for what it really is. God bless her!

dasize said...

How much do you want to bet that Muslims will come on here and say this is fake. As they say about all Muslims becoming Christians. Especially when they expose this side of Islam. They will probably say this girl is lying just to get attention.

David Wood said...

No, they'll say that she's a rebellious girl who converted to get back at her parents for something.

Fernando said...

Waitt for muslim answers like Osama The Great Abdallah, Zakaria, Ibn and so onn... surelly they'll habe some thingue to explainne this phenomenon thate, surely, has nothing to do withe islam: it's justte a cultural aspectt from a familly from a country where honnor killings were commun eben before islam gott there... surelly islam ONLY assumed thate realitty; other mightte say this is well too reharsell too bee true... lettes waytt: those dawa speciallistes will try to prove thate this brave Fathima changed religion withe less profounde mottives than Brittany...

Adnan Khalil said...

Sad, very sad. Well I'm glad I never got this abuse when I left Islam.

Nakdimon said...

David, you were right. This girl rocks!

All this "Islam liberated women" nonsense is a far cry from reality!

Nakdimon

Kelli said...

Since she's a minor, is the state going to return her to her parents? Is she still in Florida? Please post updates on this as you get them. Thank you!

Fernando said...

Just recieved this from a friende from iranian familly...

http://www.aina.org/news/20090811145313.htm

It looks this problem is endemic: either legalized or nott... islam is the moste degradating religion for humankind and God thate existes inn the world... the facts we all see eberyday proves this...

minoria said...

The video has also appeared in jihawatch.org by ROBERT SPENCER.He said he has been trying to get into contact with the authorities to send them info about what Islam really says about death for apostasy.His friend PAMELA of Atlas sent him the video.

The Florida Imam testified at court and said what we all know is a real LIE.That the way Islam is her life is not in danger.He doesn't care about humanity.

BASSAM ZAWADI AND ADNAN RASHID

They have debated Nabeel and David.In a debate with David, Adnan said he approved of death for apostates.It is on this blog.

In his website Bassam says he agrees with death for apostates.

JUST LIKE IN WORLD WAR II

In last instance,if necesary, what I would do is help her hide till she is 18 and even more.Fake identity papers,whatever it takes.She can change her name legally at 18.Robert Spencer,Ali Sina,Ibn Warraq,are NOT the real names of those people.They keep their addresses secret.If you want to know how her case is going,go to jihadwatch.org.They are keen on it.

For the moment she is legally safe in her new parent's custody,but for how long?As before,in WW II,some Jews survived due to fake papers that said they were of another ethnicity.

WHY WOULD BASSAM AND ADNAN APPROVE?

It is the LOGICAL result of their beliefs.They believe 100% that when the Koran says to obey Mohammed it's to be done.They believe 100% the isnad in Bukhari is infallible,so there Mohammed says 7X to kill apostates.To say otherwise is going against God.

David Wood said...

I talked to Robert Spencer. I think he's okay as far as contact info goes now.

I don't think Bassam and Adnan would say that Fathima should be killed. I think they both hold the position that apostates should only be killed in a Muslim theocracy, and I suspect they might have reservations about applying the ruling to a teenage girl. (But given what the Muslim sources declare, I think their reservations are incorrect.)

Fernando said...

minoria saide, ounce again, with greatte truth: «in WW II,some Jews survived due to fake papers that said they were of another ethnicity»... yes, thates true, the portuguese consul to Bordeaux in France, Aristides de Sousa Mendes, who, againstte the determinations off the far-righte governement if the dicattaor Salazare, saved more than 30.000 (at leats 12.000 off them were jews... remember: Oskar Schindler justte saved 1.200...) by giving them false pappers in order to escape to Spain from France...

he died in utter poverty and faminne because Salazar's governement disnhonored him and forbade him, and all his family, to leave the country or eben gett another job... when he died he did nott eben have a personal clothes, so he was buried with the habitt off one fransiscan monk thate worked in the hospital wheere he died...

in the 1990's 4 muslims from the portuguese muslim community were arrested when caughtt on film urinatting on his grave...

another silentte Chrsitian hero...

Radical Moderate said...

Anyone have any contact info, for the organiztion that is harboring this girl. What is her legal status?

David Wood said...

There are three roadblocks to our sister's safety. First, her parents are insisting that she's in no danger (just as Amina and Sarah's parents insisted they were safe, prior to brutally murdering them). Second, Muslim leaders are denying the fact that Islam teaches that apostates should be killed. Most of the media and government authorities seem to be buying it. Third, Fathima is a citizen of Sri Lanka, not of the U.S. If she is returned to her family's area Sri Lanka, she will most likely be placed in a mental asylum (which is what they do with converts to Christianity there). We can only imagine what the male guards will do to a young girl who has converted to Christianity in a place like that.

Pray for our brave young sister.

dasize said...

I just don't understand how muslims can deny that islam does not teach killing apostates. When it's written in the Hadiths plain as day. They would have to deny the Hadiths in order to deny that.

Unknown said...

Dasize:

actullay all the muslims I talked with, none of them denied this fact, but sometimes they cant do it if they are in a country that will charge them for killing innocent.

However they try to give several unlogical reasoning for this unhuman law. Like saying to prevent fitna !! or cause Islam is so holy, so if u leave it this is a great sin which should be punished !! other reasoning is because they consider islam to be the last religion , so any change should be from the older to the more recent aand not in the opposit direction !! and so on of those weird reasoning !!

In Saudi arabia, the apostate is killed in a public square in front of every one, cut off his head with sowrd !!

Now, talking about Asylum, I have heard that many muslims came to the states and other western countires seeking asylum !! again for weird reasoning, like saying they are moderate, and radicals are persecuting them , other would claim they wanted to be christians but feared death !! etc

Fernando said...

dasize saide: «They would have to deny the Hadiths in order to deny that»... no: firste they'll say thate thate is nott in teh qur'an (as iff the equivalent to the Bible was the qur'an... it is not!!! the equivalent off the qur'an is Jesus Himself; the equivalent to the NT are the hadiths...); then they'll say thate thate hadithe is poorly translated as the hadithes can only bee read in antien arabic; then thate the hadithe is weak; and so one... they're eben ready to sell theyre sould to allah in order to portrait a false image off islam to westerns (taqqyia oblige...)...

Fernando said...

I'mm juste watching in the local TV in Europe a show speakking off how a muslim community sonwhere in Maine (USA... Lewinston... can itt bee?) suffers descriminattion juste because no one understand thate, being them from Somalia, they suffer a lott more from the colde winter and, being soo, they shoulde reciebe more economical helpp to survive through the winters... Will someone speak aboutte Fathima? Don't think soo... but Jesus is withe her...

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Fifth Monarchy Man said...

What would Britney say about this girl?

The contrast between these two conversions could not be more compelling.

One young woman repeated a couple of phrases before an adoring smiling husband and hundreds of well wishers and all is well. In the worlds eyes she gave up nothing and gained everything.


The other hid her decision as long as she could but because she could not deny her Lord finally wrote a tearful letter to her parents and left every thing in the dead of night fearing for her life trusting only in God. It appears she gave up everything and gained nothing.

Thank God things are not always as they appear

For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it. For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his soul? Or what shall a man give in return for his soul?
(Matthew 16:25-26)


Jesus said, "Truly, I say to you, there is no one who has left house or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or lands, for my sake and for the gospel, who will not receive a hundredfold now in this time, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and lands, with persecutions, and in the age to come eternal life.
(Mark 10:29-30)




peace

Anonymous said...

I dont think my link came through, but try this -

Link to Christian Mother Trapped in Islam



Anonymous said...

I dont think my link came through, but try this -

Link to Christian Mother Trapped in Islam



Radical Moderate said...

Anyone else notice the silence. Its deafining

minoria said...

It is so barbaric.Muslims are the only group where a great percentage of the population(or maybe most)approve of persecution and death for one who leaves their religion.

No other group:Hindu,Jewish,Buddhist,Mormon,Christian,Bahai,Sikh,etc does it.If MAGDI ALLAM were still a Muslim he would be 100% for her protection,in fact he himself is under police protection for years.IRSHAD MANJI would also be for her.

WHAT TO DO

But would Shabir Ally,Jamal Badawi,Yusuf Estes,the late Ahmed Deedat,Tariq Ramadan,and CAIR be capable of saying:"Their is a real problem with Islam as Islam today.

We are teaching people to obey hadiths where Mohammed says to kill apostates.It goes against human rights under any situation.

Al-Azhar University,the spiritual center of the Sunnis,who are 90% of Muslims,has to publicly reject those hadiths.Or other innocent people will die.Because that is one of the REASONS for the problem with Islam today."

BECAUSE MUSLIMS ARE STILL A MINORITY

They won't ever do it.Why?Because they secretly agree.They can say publicly they are against it.But they mean that it's because the West is not Muslim.But they won't say that in Egypt,Pakistan,Indonesia.

The only people who talked like that were Magdi Allam,when he was a Muslim,and Irshad Manji today.

Fernando:

I didn't know that story about SOUSA MENDES.An unsung hero,thanks.In her country Sri Lanka,most are Buddhist.But many Buddhist were becoming Christian.I know a woman at work who was once a Buddhist and is now Christian.So the Buddhist monks there tried to pass a law that if anybody left Buddhism then the person would be imprisoned.They failed.

INDIA

In several states they have passed a law that if a Hindu changes religion he will be imprisoned.One's religion is one's own business.A private matter.

And we must pray for her.

If she ever needs help to escape again,you can contact me,I would gladly give her money so she can go underground for a few years.

Ehteshaam Gulam said...

Why anyone who converts to Christianity from Islam puzzles me. Again what evidence is there for Christianity? None.

Moreover Innana (1500 BCE) was also crucified and resurrected-- why not just worship her?

Unknown said...

Ehtesham:

why look for the evidence when u have the Quran !!

See what islam teaches u about Jesus:

1: Word of God
2: Spirit Of God
3: Miraculous Birth from the Virgin , with no Father
4: Miraculous Life
a: talking at birth
b: healing sick
c: raisinf the dead
5: Two special characheteristic which the quran only attributed to Allah:
a: Knowin the future, and hidden stuff
b: Creation
6: Sinless
7: Satan Fears Him
8: The Fair Judge on the Last Day
9: Still alive !!

So think about this first!
is this a normal human like me and U ?!
is this just a prophet like Muhammed (ur perfect example?)
Dont u see he has all atributes of God ?!

thats what the quran and hadith said, then if u are in doubt , come ask those he read the book before you (The bible), so go ask a christian who is Jesus ?! and u will know

........................

More Evidence:
1- Apparitions of Virgin Mary all over the world in her churches, what does that mean ?!
2- Exorcism: I have seen a lot of muslims going to priests for this issue
3- Shroud of Turin
........................

Archeological evidences that support the Biblica facts e.g: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_artifacts_significant_to_the_Bible

..........................

All the evidence that support Crucifiction of Jesus when the Quran Got NONE !!

.........................

All these are not enough for you ?! what Kind of evidence u are looking for ?!

Fernando said...

And Young Etheshaam continues: «Again what evidence is there for Christianity? None»... as iff someone woulde convertte afterr doing maths or an detective investigatiion... are you saying I did nott habe reasons to become a Christian aftter I, withe my familie, were forced (yes: forced) to become muslims? Let's see justte some off those I had...

a) reasons to lebe islam:

1) eberything I was taught aboutt islam and Christianity in schoolls for indoctrinationg the muslim ideology was totally false (#1: islam lives and survives uppon creatting lies about itself and other religions: no religionn thatte lives uppon lyies is a true relligion);

2) islam is a degradatting religion: bothe for man and God (#2: a relligion thate presents, withe it's exegetical and theological norms the image off God as an egoistic, despottic, narcisistic and barbaric being and a sub-human image off humankind cannot bee true);

3) there are no historical ebidences off the major claimes made to prove the message off muhammad: the only testimony for his own revelatioon was muhammad, someone willing to lye, to kill, to cheatt, to feal the desires to kill himselff, to steal other ones wiffes, to recieve "revelations" to justiffy his own urges, to accept other one's wordes in exchange for itsowns to expresse his supposedely eternal and imutable message (#3: no one is a relieble testimony uppon himself);

4) there are no historical ebidences off the major claimes made to prove the message off the qur'an: only muhammad (and we habbe seen his character); more: he all know aboutt the devious history off recollection off the qur'an (thate I NEBER was taught off when I was a muslim) and the effords to justiffy its lack off verecity in major aspects (#4: iff the qur'an is the eternal and imutable word off allah, allah mustt be, indeed, a very ignorantte being);

b) reasons to becomme Christian:

1) there are major and different testiminys to the historical truth off all central aspects uppon is based the Christian faithe: death and ressurrection off Jesus; truthfullness and honesty thate orientated all the NT authors; ebidences for all Jesus claims eben recognized as such by those who did not beliebe him; etc...;

2) all the major aspirations off any normal and decent human being are fullfilled by Jesus teachings: peace; love; fraternity; mutual acceptance; truth; freedom; integrity; and do on... these things sometimes are bery difficul to live, butt the religion also makes one more human, nott more unhuman as islam which teaches: violence, hatre, degradation, intolerance; lyies; despising others; and so one... islam is more easy to follow butt makes oneself more, and more unhuman...

so... accordinf to these (less personal and depth) reasons I had, its mee who say: to mee is impossible to beliebe thate any free and mature and balanced human being woulde choose to become a muslim... and as I stated many times before I woulde rather wantt anyone to bee an atheist and habe some natural values than a muslim withe it's devious ones...

Fernando said...

brother minoria

yes: your points are bery pertinent; all off them...

you can finde some thing about Aristides de Sousa Mendes in these sites:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/biography/Mendes.html

aboutte him, one can really say: his liffe woulde made a GREAT movie: drama, thriller, adventure, romance, espionage, butt abobe all: love and dedication to God and human beings...

minoria said...

In the case of Ehtesham,he will never be convinced.That is his decision,and he can say his thoughts on Christianity and atheism,etc freely.It's freedom of speech.

He was born in the US so he knows the values of the West.We all here in the blog still don't know but hope it is so,that he agrees with us on this:

"Any person in any country,whether a Muslim country or not,has the 100% freedom and right to choose whatever religion or none she/he wants.

And not be persecuted or killed.And that that is what God would agree with."

Javier said...

Why anyone who converts to Christianity from Islam puzzles me. Again what evidence is there for Christianity? None.

That question puzzles me as well, afterall they are guaranteed torture, persecution, and death. Why would anyone convert from Islam to Christianity? Because of the unsurpassing riches of Christ in the Gospel. Torture me, persecute me, and kill me. The pleasures of God in Christ are worth more than any threats from some false prophet and his cohorts.

thePreacher said...

why is she afraid of death? if she is a Christian she should know that when she dies she will go to be with God.

Osama Abdallah said...

"aitt for muslim answers like Osama The Great Abdallah, Zakaria, Ibn and so onn... surelly they'll habe some thingue to explainne this phenomenon thate, surely, has nothing to do withe islam: it's justte a cultural aspectt from a familly from a country where honnor killings were commun eben before islam gott there... surelly islam ONLY assumed thate realitty; other mightte say this is well too reharsell too bee true... lettes waytt: those dawa speciallistes will try to prove thate this brave Fathima changed religion withe less profounde mottives than Brittany..."

Please visit: http://www.answering-christianity.com/apostates.htm

Osama Abdallah
www.answering-christianity.com

David Wood said...

thePreacher said: "why is she afraid of death? if she is a Christian she should know that when she dies she will go to be with God."

She's a teenager, Preacher. She said she was willing to die if need be. What on earth makes you feel like you can criticize a young girl for not wanting to be brutally murdered by the people who raised her? Every other Christian watching this admires her for her courage. You criticize her. Amazing.

Fernando said...

The Osama The Great Abdallah side:... ooops, he did not saide anything, ounce again... nothing, zits, zipp, zipp itt goode... The Osama The Great Abdallah: the pointe was nott the islamic beliebes on aposthasy: the hadithes are quite well clear on thate, rather whate you, and other muslims, think aboutt these case... as kind brother The Fat Man saide: your silence is eloquentte... and The Osama The Great Abdallah iff you wantte to say anyhingie on the topic off killin apostated in islam, please: justte presentte your pointes here... butt we all know you won't will you? you do nott them to bee refutted ober, and ober again... you do nott place the publicity to your site in order to non-muslims go there (we do nott need to read such an biased site), rather too feed the ignorance off all the muslims who, more and more, are comming to this blogg to see the true face off islam... I won't tell is name publiquely here, butt one good muslim frien off mine, thate also wrotte here sometimes, is no more a muslim due to whatte he learnned here aboutt islam and Christianity... in due timme he'll tell thate himselff when his liffe as become more stable in the new country where is leaving now... and whie did he habe to escape to another country? I'll lett you guess The Osama The Great Abdallah: justt an hint: perhaps his familly and the local muslims did not beliebed in whatte you writte in your site full off lies...

meanwhille, The Osama The Great Abdallah, whatte are YOUR words to this girl and her familly?

Radical Moderate said...

A young muslim who will remain nameless becasue I am not actualy responding to him. Said "What evidence is there for Christianity".

In another post this muslim said

"The historical record of Jesus and his crucifixion-- may be solid-- but in order to believe Christianity you HAVE to believe in the resurrection of our mutual friend J.C. If its proven no ressurection-- then its over for Christianity. Christianity falls apart like a house of cards."

He also said "The evidence for Islam-- to me its solid."

Well lets look at this evidence.
First the Quran says that Jesus was not crucified and neither was he killed.

This muslim says the hisrotical evidence for jesus crucifiction maybe solid. So if jesus was crucified and did die on the cross then what evidence is solid in islam for Jesus not being crucified and not being killed?

He then says that Christianity rests on the reserection of Jesus. I agree with this, we preach christ crucified and christ risin. But he says there is no evidence for this.

However this same muslim will believe the quran contrary to what he believes is historicaly "Solid" that Jesus Christ was crucified and died on the cross.

Does anyone else see the contradictory view point. He denies Christiantiy saying there is no evidence, but then accepts islam even though it disagrees with what he beleives is historical solid. That Christ was crucified.

nma said...

Ehteshaam,

People convert to Christianity not because of evidence but because God draws them. It is unlike people converting to Islam based on dubious and spurious evidence, analysis and study. It is God who brings true converts (not the ones like Shadid Lewis) to Jesus. This is one reason why Jesus appears to people in their dreams. "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day." (John 6:44)
"He went on to say, 'This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him.'" (John 6:65)

you said:Moreover Innana (1500 BCE) was also crucified and resurrected-- why not just worship her?

It's a lie. Maybe she was crucified, but not resurrected. Also, where do you think Mohammed got the materials to recite (or write) the Quran? He stole his material from the Bible and falsely claimed that they were Allah's words.

David Wood said...

She wasn't even crucified. And she wasn't even a human being! There's practically no parallel at all.

On top of this, such beliefs had absolutely no credibility or popularity in first century Israel.

If Ehteshaam is right, here's what must have happened. An entire group of first century Jews must have said: "We despise the beliefs of the pagans. And we've never heard of Innana. Nevertheless, let's try and invent a story about Jesus dying and rising in the same way." Then, of course, these fabricators got all of the details wrong, and went to their deaths proclaiming the message they had copied.

And Ehteshaam expects us to try to prove something to someone willing to believe such a ludicrous theory?

Radical Moderate said...

Muslims you can not re invent what Christians believed, practiced, testified to and died for, to fit your quran. It is insane. I'm sorry but it is more then insane it is foolish. Give it up. You quran is wrong. Thats all there is to it. To continue to re interpret, to re invent what people believed for 700 years before mohamed came on to the scene is just well STUPID with a captiol S.

I meen serioulsy I just heard a muslim say that since in Mark it says Jesus has risin, and it does not say risen from the dead that this meens he rose as in woke up. Come on.

Radical Moderate said...

A young muslim who will remain nameless becasue I am not actualy responding to him. Said "Moreover Innana (1500 BCE) was also crucified and resurrected-- why not just worship her?"

Here is what every muslims favorite source wikipedia says on Innana.

1.She is the Sumerian goddess of sexual love, fertility, and warfare.

Hmm jesus spoke alot about love so this must be where the writers of the gosples got that idea.

2.She stirs confusion and chaos against those who are disobedient to her, speeding carnage and inciting the devastating flood, clothed in terrifying radiance. It is her game to speed conflict and battle, untiring, strapping on her sandals.

Lets see Christians claim that god casued a flood, and since Jesus is God incarnate and is said to return with the radiance of God. Lets not forget Jesus wore sandles. Wow I can see how the gosple writters ripped that out of the story of Innas.

3.When the servants let the flocks loose, and when cattle and sheep are returned to cow-pen and sheepfold, then, my lady, like the nameless poor, you wear only a single garment. The pearls of a prostitute are placed around your neck, and you are likely to snatch a man from the tavern

The gosple of John says that jesus is the good shepard and something about sheep, the gosples also say somethign about the poor, and pearls and ofcorse isnt Jesus trying to drag men out of taverns.

4. According to one story, Inanna tricked the god of culture, Enki, who was worshipped in the city of Eridu, into giving her the Mes. The 'Mes' ("maes") represented everything from truth to weaving to prostitution, granting power over, or possibly existence to, all the aspects of civilization (both positive and negative).

Well this is obvious, Jesus had power over all and the bible says that everything that existed came into being through Christ.

5.The afflicted woman was turned into a corpse. And the corpse was hung on a hook." (Innas trip to the underworld)

Ok jesus was killed hangin on a cross, and his body after he died was a corpse. So yeah this makes sense too.

6. "Three days and three nights passed and Nincurba following instructions went to Enlil, Nanna, and Enki's temples and demanded they save the Goddess of Love. The first two gods refused saying it was her own mess but Enki was deeply troubled and agreed to help. He created two sexless figures (neither male nor female) named gala-tura and the kur-jara. He instructed they were to appease EreŇ°kigal and when asked what they wanted they were to ask for Inanna's corpse and sprinkle it with the food and water of life. However when they come before Ereshkigal, she is in agony like a woman giving birth, and she offers them what they want, including lifegiving rivers of water and fields of grain, if they can relieve her; nonetheless they take only the corpse."

The bible says Jesus was three days and three nights in the tomb. God is called Love in the bible and since Jesus is God then he must be the godess of love. Jesus said he is the living water. I know he said something about living water. A clear reference to this story. And the corpse was taken down from the cross. Obvioulsy that part was just ripped off from the story of Innans.

Ehteshaam Gulam said...

No my friends, I am listening. You have evidence for your beliefs-- I am listening.

I am the one of the few Muslims not only in Michigan-- but probably in America who are willing to listen to what Christians have to say. A few years back I used to sit down in a church once a month and listen to the sermon and ask questions later. No Muslim would that.

Its just when it comes to the evidence for the belief of Christianity-- it doesn't impress me.

As for God or the Holy Spirit drawing people to believe-- I haven't had the holy spirit come to me and convince me of the "risen" Jesus. Why not? I think I am a good and decent man.

Thanks,
Ehteshaam Gulam
http://www.answering-christian-claims.com

Ehteshaam Gulam said...

As for Prophet Muhammad (p) allegedly coping previous scripture (like the Bible and the apocryphal sources) check this link out:

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Sources/BBbible.html

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Sources/BBdefense.html

So much for that polemic.

Again, Like I said before, I am going to believe something until I see really good evidence for it. And the only religion which had really good evidence for it (at least to me) was Islam.

Yours in Islam
Ehteshaam Gulam
http://www.answering-christian-claims.com

minoria said...

Hello Fernando:

Thank you for the link about SOUSA MENDES.A great man.I knew nothing about him till recently.I wonder how many of the Muslims and Christians here knew of BARTOLOME DE LAS CASAS or the great work of HARRIET BEECHER STOWE and WILLIAM GARRISON till now?

I mean they were giants in the war against slavery.The show the West at its best.DIDEROT and VOLTAIRE also.

Or how many knew of MAGDI ALLAM,a real example for all Muslims while he was a Muslim?Or that the JESUITS in South America almost created a Kingdom of God on earth for the Guarani Indians?

ONE MORE

All have heard of WILLIAM WILBERFOURCE,but how many know that the saintly and beloved JOHN WESLEY,the Anglican priest who founded the Methodist Church,one of the moral figures of the day,was also against slavery?Very few,but we have to know our history,people,our heritage.

nma said...

David Wood said...
She wasn't even crucified. And she wasn't even a human being! There's practically no parallel at all.

In that case, the statement "Moreover Innana (1500 BCE) was also crucified and resurrected-- why not just worship her?"is a blatant attempt to discredit Jesus, a` la Osama Abdullah.

minoria said...

Hello:

In only 2 days already more than 19,000 have seen RIFQA BARY's video.The latest news on her can be found in PAMELA's website atlasshrugs.com.She is a friend of ROBERT SPENCER,of jihadwatch.org.She was the one who began it all.God bless her.The publicity can save her life.I have sent the video to some,and they can pray for her and even contact Pamela.

INANNA OF SUMERIA

Ehteshaam often cites the case.Personally I have nothing against seeing a basic parallelism.Also he says "it shows Christianity is not original",that something similar had existed.

I always like to argue using the minimalist position.So I agree.Inanna was a godess who was killed in 1,500 BC and put on a hook and then resurrected.She was not a real human,but accepting Gulam's position ,there is a common parallelism.

MANI OF PERSIA

I wasn't even thinking of arguing or trying to refute.I was just rereading my notes at work.Like I do every day.Later it occurred to me there is a PARALLELISM here.Inanna/Jesus and Mani/Mohamed.

SEAL OF THE PROPHETS

MANI (210-276 AD) was a Persian who founded a new religion MANICHEISM.He traveled to India where he found out about Buddha.
He was influenced by Gnostics,he heard of Jesus.And of Zoroaster,the prophet of the religion of his country.

HIS CLAIMS

1.That an ANGEL appeared to him and gave him divine messages.

2.He declared himself to be the SEAL of the PROPHETS:greater than Moses,Jesus,Zoroaster and Buddha(all of whom were prophets also)

3.He claimed to be the PARACLETOS of the gospel of John.

HIS LIFE

He gained the favor of the Persian king,who for many years favored the new religion,the true religion.But when that king died,the new one favored Zoroastrianism.Mani was imprisoned and tortured,as a result of which he died,around 60 years of age,a true martyr.

FAMOUS CONVERT

His religion became very popular.It spread to the Roman Empire and was a serious rival for Christianity.Its most famous convert was AUGUSTINE.He lived 100 years after Mani and was a Manichean for several years.Later he became a Christian,and wrote THE CITY OF GOD and his CONFESSIONS.

PARALLELISM

The similarities with Mohamed's claims are striking.There are differences but a basic similarity.One being that MANI was the first to make the unconvincing claim that the Paraclete in John was a HUMAN and not a spirit(just like Mohammed said 300 years later).

It shows the claims of Mohammed were not unique,something similar had appeared before.

BUT MANICHEISM IS DEAD,IT PROVES IT IS NOT THE TRUE RELIGION

True.And Inanna worship is dead also.But the faith of Jesus is alive.

Fernando said...

Yoing Ehteshaam Gulam: many other people after muhammad saide they were God's last prophet and wrotte religious books eben better preserved than the qur'an... so: whie do nott you muslims follow these ones? in these case, the paralelism is absolutous: one person claimes to bee the last prophet off God and writtes (or dictates) a book; in the case of Innana/Jesus there's nott the single paralelism!!! So: Young Ehteshaam Gulam: go to a better university, please: go! and learn some things!!!

chrisse said...

Osama appears to be ignorant of his ideology called islam. Honour killing is explicitly allowed both in the qur'an and shariah law:

A manual of Islamic law (The Reliance of the Traveller available on Amazon) certified by Al-Azhar as a reliable guide to Sunni orthodoxy says that "retaliation is obligatory against anyone who kills a human being purely intentionally and without right." However, "not subject to retaliation" is "a father or mother (or their fathers or mothers) for killing their offspring, or offspring's offspring." ('Umdat al-Salik o1.1-2).

Quran:18:74-80/81 -
74. Then they both proceeded till they met a boy, and he (Khidr) killed him. Musa said: "Have you killed an innocent person without Nafs Verily, you have committed a thing Nukr!''
.....
80. "And as for the boy, his parents were believers, and we feared he would oppress them by rebellion and disbelief.
81. "So we intended that their Lord should exchange him for them for one better in righteousness and nearer to mercy."

The islamic claim is that this is the mighty prophet Al Khidr who Moses went to learn from.

Young man in 18:74 is incorrect, it refers to a young boy as can be seen from the tafsirs.

No, while it is a cultural practice, the culture is Islamic.

thePreacher said...

I admire her a lot. But I'm a teenager to and I'm not afraid of death but the things in life. God said to not fear those who kill you body but fear the one who can destroy your spirit.
But who cares what I think I'm not perfect.

Fernando said...

the Propher (a true one, I recon) saide: «while it is a cultural practice, the culture is islamic»... absoluttelie correct! muslims do have the tendecy to justify somme off the barbaric nature off islam due to "culturall aspects" butt neber seem to realiize whate you correctly saide: those aspects are inherent to islam's mentality itself...

Sepher Shalom said...

Ehteshaam said: "No my friends, I am listening. You have evidence for your beliefs-- I am listening."

I believe you are sincere in this.

Ehteshaam said: "I am the one of the few Muslims not only in Michigan-- but probably in America who are willing to listen to what Christians have to say. A few years back I used to sit down in a church once a month and listen to the sermon and ask questions later. No Muslim would that.

As for God or the Holy Spirit drawing people to believe-- I haven't had the holy spirit come to me and convince me of the "risen" Jesus. Why not? I think I am a good and decent man."


Have you considered the possibility that the reason you were willing to sit in that church and listen is because He has already begun to draw you? Have you considered that maybe the whole reason you are interested in apologetics is because He is continuing to draw you?

I do think you are a decent man. I just want to point out that we don't get salvation based on our goodness, we get it based on G-d's goodness. Being saved isn't because someone is "better" than someone else. It is because of the unmerited Grace of G-d.

I encourage you to, in addition to 'listening', also examining your biases and your standards, and most of all remembering that if you cry out to G-d, He will hear you.

Radical Moderate said...

thePreacher said...
I admire her a lot. But I'm a teenager to and I'm not afraid of death but the things in life. God said to not fear those who kill you body but fear the one who can destroy your spirit.
But who cares what I think I'm not perfect.

Ahh the hubereous of youth. I rember as a teen ager I wasnt afraid to die. Only problem my life was never really in danger. Its easy not to fear death from the comfort of your living room. But try not fearing it when someone puts a gun to your head.

Radical Moderate said...

Ehteshaam Gulam said...
As for God or the Holy Spirit drawing people to believe-- I haven't had the holy spirit come to me and convince me of the "risen" Jesus. Why not? I think I am a good and decent man.

I couldnt of said it better. It is because you think that you are a good and decent man that is why you are drawn to a man centric relegion like Islam.

You reject the cross, not becasue of what it says about God, but becasue what it says about you. In order for you to accept the cross you must come to the relization of what man is in Gods eyes when it comes to sin.

David/Nabeel I think maybe you
guys need to do a debate or a article on Sin in the bible compared to the concept of sin in Islam.

Christ did not come to save the righteous, or good and decent men. He came to save the wicked. There is no such thing as a good and decent man.

I have seen honest men lie, liars tell the truth, a thief give to charity and charatable men steal. Murderes show compasion, and those that are merciful commit murder. Why is that? Everyone thinks they are good and decent.

Etshaam, you say you need evidence. There is no evidence we can give you. The reason for this is becasue as long as you think you are good and decent you will have no need for the cross.

You are wicked evil man in the eyes of God, just as I, David Wood, Nabeel, Nakdemon and every other christian in the world is wicked. The difference is that we cristians know who we are and what we are with out Christ. That is what we are saved from. That is slavation from the righteous and just punishment of God. Tell me Ethsaam are you saved from Gods Terable wrath?

Radical Moderate said...

Ethshaam I'm going to tell you a true story. None of the names have been changed to protect the guilty

There was a man in the 1970’s. He was married owned a successful business. He lived, worked and played not far from were I grew up. In his spare time he used to dress up as a clown and visit the children’s cancer ward. His work with charity won him a presidential award. Given to him at the White House by President Jimmy Carter and his wife Roslyn. He was the salt of the earth as they say.

He through lavish parties for charity, raised money for the Democratic Chicago Machine. All his friends and neighbors said he was hard working, a good and decent man. Compassionate and caring, he was kind to animals.

Does this sound like you Etshaam. Wouldn’t you like to be just like this kind and decent man? Someone who is hard working, charitable, loves children, shows compassion and mercy for sick and dying children. Is kind to animals. Is hailed by friends and enemies alike as Kind, Decent, Generous; a Good man.

He had only one small problem. He didn’t think it was a problem, more of a quirk really. His party guests started to notice something strange when they came over to his house for charity and political fund raising. The heavy sent of air freshener choked his house. But underneath that scent was the smell of rotting flesh. You see Ethshaam this Kind decent man, this charitable, lover of animals, care taker of the sick was in fact a child killer.

When he was finally caught, the Park Ridge police department removed the remains of over 30 young teen age boys from a crawl space underneath his home. He always maintained his innocence right until the very end. And that award he won for being such a good and decent man. The picture that was taken of his receiving the award from the hand of President Carter and First Lady Roslyn Carter, it was proudly displayed in his cell on Death Row. A reminder of sorts that he was a good and decent man. After his execution, that picture as well as his artwork where purchased at an estate auction. The man who purchased the items had them all burned, cast into the fire.

Now Ethshaam I’m not saying you are a child killer, or a killer by any means. What I am saying is that everyone thinks they are good and decent men. Even some are acknowledged at the highest levels of society for being good and decent men. However in the end, before God, all kind and decent men will be cast into the fire, to be burned up. Just like the memory of the award that John Wayne Gassy received for his good and decent work.

Flee the coming wrath of God.

nma said...

Ehteshaam,

You said:Again, Like I said before, I am going to believe something until I see really good evidence for it. And the only religion which had really good evidence for it (at least to me) was Islam.


People are drawn to Islam, Communism, atheism etc. based on fallible human evidence or rather, appearance of evidence. An atheist can produce as much 'evidence' to support his beliefs as a Muslim can produce to support his. All that 'evidence' might appear valid too. But proper evidence is universally acceptable, like mathematical proof. The problem is, the 'evidence' presented by Muslims or atheists are not universally acceptable.

With the links you provided, do you mean to say that Mohammed had no opportunity to talk to Christians? Assuming he was illiterate, he gained his Biblical knowledge by talking to Jews and Chrisitans, not by reading the Bible. Also, according to this islamic link, Waraqah ibn Nawfal, one of Khadija's cousins,reportedly translated the Bible from Hebrew into Arabic.

minoria said...

Considering proof for Christianity and Islam,there are things in the Koran that simply make non-Muslims not believe.Technicalities,but important.

But before thanks to the person,I think it was Semper Paratus,who pointed out that after JOHN 7:37 ( where Jesus says:"as Scripture SAID:then a paraphrase")the people say:"does not Scripture SAY the Messiah must be from David's family and from Bethlehem?"

It's obvious THEY are paraphrasing also because the EXACT words "Messiah will be from David's family" and "Messiah will be from Bethlehem" don't appear in the OT.Thanks again for the insight.I added it to my notes.

WHY A NON-MUSLIM CAN'T BELIEVE

Again,it's independent of Christianity being true or not.n fact,let's say it's false.So the Koran has:

ALLAH PRAYING MOHAMMED 2X:

Sura 33:43/33:56.Muslims say it means "to bless".They have to.They change the meaning in order to prevent the Koran from being rejected.

SAMARITAN WITH MOSES 3X

He appears in Sura 20:85/20:87/20:95.They didn't exist as a people then (1,400 BC).Nor did the city of SAMARIA exist then.It's an error.

MOHAMMED IN THE GOSPELS

Using normal logic you discover he is not there.

Again,all this is independant of other religions.

Ali said...

//Sahih al-Bukhari 6921—Ibn Umar, Az-Zuhri and Ibrahim said, “A female apostate (who reverts from Islam), should be killed.”

Sahih al-Bukhari 6922—Allah’s Messenger [said], “Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.”//

Actually lets look at the first hadith:
http://www.understanding-islam.com/related/text.aspx?type=article&aid=247

I think its pretty similar.

Second hadith is talking about those people who mockingly converted to islam. that was a temporary law (and no i am not copying answering christianity)

Ali said...

have a look at what the parents lawyer is saying:

http://www.religionnewsblog.com/23556/fathima-rifqa-bary

Ali said...

I think the girls parents lawyer is right. And look the girl couldn't say muslim properly??

Ali said...

//the facts we all see eberyday proves this...//

are we really gonna go back to the "media" thing fernando?

Ali said...

//This shows Islam for what it really//

Patrice, how??

A Wise Woman said...

What got my attention is what was published under the video, "It's interesting that many liberals in the West believe she should be returned to her parents. "Silly girl," they think. "She doesn't understand Islam. No one will hurt her if she goes home." But Fathima knows better."
If the situation was reversed-for example, her parents were Christians, and the girl had run away, would the so called, "liberals" have asked her to do the same? Absolutely, NO! They would have run that in their news channels 24 for several weeks, and they would have saved her file to be pulled out anytime they want to criticize and judge Christians. These are who Christ said, they don’t get to the Haven nor did they let others to get the salvation. They know very well this girl will be killed if she returns to her home by any family member who they don’t hesitate to do so for “Allah’s sake”, even though that murder family member will be later persecuted by this country’s law. He would count that as an honor to do that, and that makes his “good deeds scale goes up or increases in the day of the judgment.”
THIS IS THE FOOLNESS!

Ehteshaam Gulam said...

Ibn Warraqa died shortly after Prophet Muhammad received his revelations.

Read all of Islamic-awarness.org links on the Bible in Pre-Islamic Arabia-- they prove there were no sources there.

As for Minoria's points, go to Islam-awareness.org---- they probably have answers there.

Yours In Islam
Ehteshaam Gulam
http://www.answering-christian-claims.com

nma said...

Ehteshaam Gulam said...

Ibn Warraqa died shortly after Prophet Muhammad received his revelations.

This does not prove that he did not translate the Bible.

You said: Read all of Islamic-awarness.org links on the Bible in Pre-Islamic Arabia-- they prove there were no sources there.

Your links do not prove that there were no Christians in Pre-Islamic Arabia and Mohammed did not hear the Biblical stories from them.

nma said...

Hi Fernando,

You said: b) reasons to becomme Christian:....

The Most important reason is that God selected and enabled you to become a Christian.

Fernando said...

@ Ali

Ali saide: «are we really gonna go back to the "media" thing fernando?»... strange thate you say this and in the next thread you ask evidences from CNN, HLN, BBC...

and I do nott habbe eny reason to do doubtt in news agencys likke Aljazeera or Iqraa TV (justt some I quitte often watch...)... do you?

p.s.: you links to those sites who attempt to deny the historical realitty are just boggus... either them or the major four schools off islamic jurisprudence are right... humm... lets me imagine which are?


@ Young Ehteshaam Gulam

Young Ehteshaam Gulam saide: «they prove there were no sources there»... off course nott! there were not eben Chriatians in Arabia, nor muhammad meet a cripto-Chriatian who recognized his prophetwwod due to a nevus in his skin... no: these are all myths...


@ nma

brother nma saide: «the Most important reason is that God selected and enabled you to become a Christian»... well... that's absoluttely rightt... and I, withe His grace, gabe him my yes and He was kind enought to accept itt!!!

minoria said...

Thanks Ehteshaam:

I know the Muslim answers to the first 2 points.In the Samaritan case they say Samaritan means "observant",not "Samaritan".In HEBREW.It's true in Hebrew Samaritan and observant are similar.But "as-Samiri" is ARABIC.It doesn't mean "observant".Why didn't Allah use the ARABIC word for "observant".

SAMARITANS CALLED THEMSELVES "THE OBSERVANT ONES"

True.They only accepted the Torah.They observed it.Then Allah should have used the Arabic word for observant.

TORAH WHEN?

In the Koran story presumably the TORAH has not yet been given by Moses.So how can "the observant" be obeying the Torah if it still doesn't exist?

YES,IT IS

Let's say the Torah has already been given.No problem.Then why does Allah call the man THREE TIMES "the observant"?In the story it is "the observant" who convinces the Jews to worship a calf statue.He was not being observant to God.

Radical Moderate said...

I'm going to do what I do best and that is play the Devil's advocate.

First I want to stress how important honor is in a tribal community. A lot of westerners think that when honor is lost the worse thing that happens is insults, talking behind someone’s back, whispering, gossiping etc...
This will happen but it is not the worse thing that happens with the loss of honor in a tribal society.

In tribal societies everything is tied to status. Ones status in the tribe dictates what resources go to which individuals. So if a man looses honor this could mean a loss of income/employment, loss of investment opportunities, among other things. Even the choosing a spouse for another child of the family is put in danger. Social status is everything; if honor is lost over one child the entire family can suffer more then just insults and gossip.

I point this out because a lot of Christians in the west do not fully comprehend what it means coming from this type of background to leave a religion, any religion whether it is Islam, Hinduism, Budaism, Shintoism, Animist, etc…

Now as far as this father is concerned. I don’t know how many of you are parents, or of those that are parents how many of you have gone through the teen age years with your children. But I have to tell you, that lovely innocent child can turn into a real monster.
I have to tell you many a loving parent has uttered things to their teenage child that for the rest of their lives will be a source of anguish. Even the words “I will kill you” have been uttered by parents who would never harm a hair on their Childs head.

Now I’m not saying that this young woman should be returned to her parents. The risk is to great. I am only pointing out what I think is often over looked by those Christians who in their zeal to witness for Christ often put at risk those they are trying to help. Remember the words of Christ, “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35For I have come to turn, 'a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law, a man's enemies will be the members of his own household.” (Mathew 10:24-36) These are more then just words on a page. Something to bear in mind when sharing your faith, especially when sharing that faith with adolescents, who most psychologist jokingly say are “clinically insane until they reach there twenties.”

Unknown said...

Ali, I checked the website your through here into the blog, wold u explain to us what is the point your are tryinh to make ?! and how they are related ?!

we want to make a dialogue not just throughing some links. Would u please show us that u understand what u read ?!

The Hadith mentioned here is from Sahih Al Bukari, but this on the website is in Al Bathaqi, so what is your point ?!


.....................

I really wonder why muslims here are so incapable of makingsort of dailogue ?! like Osama, Ehtesham, Ali, and others, ar just throughing some links and asking us to read !!! u can at least answer the point with refernce, and then put the link for more information !!

minoria said...

In atlasshrugs.com I just read from PAMELA GELLER,that is the lady who runs it,and friend of Robert Spencer,of jihadwatch.org,that on August 21,a court will decide if Rifqa Bary should be returned to her parents.She is Jewish,and so another Jewish person who fights for a better world.

Let's pray she isn't forced back.The risk is too great.Too many honor killings already.Already 29,000 have seen her video.I hope someone who has influence sees it and helps.

It makes me sick.And on top of that none of the Muslims who read this blog has yet said " I agree that a person should have 100% freedom to enter or leave any religion or none without being persecuted or killed ANYWHERE,here or in any country,Muslim and not."

So goes the world,as VOLTAIRE says in a story of his entitled "So goes the world."

minoria said...

About evidence for the NT.I will later treat it with more detail but the evidence is overwhelming that there was NO CONSPIRACY to add INTERPOLATIONS to the original gospels.

The idea is that the interpolations were fabricated for propaganda.If so why are there COUNTER-PROPAGANDA parts?It doesn't make sense.

EMPEROR JULIAN AND JESUS

In 362 AD Emperor JULIAN,who was raised a Christian but soon abandoned it,tried to prove Jesus a false prophet.Jesus in the Synoptics prophesizes the Temple would be destroyed.

Julian decided to rebuild it to prove Jesus was a false prophet.Yet mysterious fire came from underground too many times and stopped the job.Coincidence or not?Whatever the case work was stopped.AMMIANUS,the last great historian of Antiquity,a PAGAN,and admirer and contemporary of Julian,wrote about it.Also others,Christians and Arians.

You can verify just by writing "Emperor Julian and Temple of Jerusalem","Ammianus and Julian","Ammianus and Temple"in google.

Sepher Shalom said...

minoria,

That's really interesting about emperor Julian attempting to rebuild the Temple. I hadn't heard of that before. Thanks for the information :)

minoria said...

Hello Sepher Shalom:

Glad you know now.It strengthens one confidence in the NT.That was why I added it.Maybe others don't yet know.

I was thinking of Ehteshaam's affirmation that others say parts of the gospels are propaganda(er,invented interpolations).But a good analysis goes against it.First:

EMBARASSING PARTS OF SYNOPTICS(and a bit of John)

1)Jesus' family thought he was mad(MARK 3:21).
2)Religious leaders thought he was possesed by devil(MARK 3:22)
3)His family and relatives thought he was no prophet(MARK 6:4)
4)His brothers didn't believe in him(JOHN 7:5)
He didn't know the hour of the Second Coming:MARK 13:32/MATT 24:36
5)Cursed Fig Tree for no fruit even though it was time for figs(Mark,Matt)
6)PETER,one of 3 top Christian leaders(with JAMES and PAUL)denied Jesus 3X:MARK 14:30/MATT 26:34/LUKE 22:34/JOHN 13:38.
7)Disciples had trouble understanding the why of Jesus' death and resurrection:MARK 9:8-13/LUKE 9:43-44.
8)Gentiles are called,literal phrase used:"little dogs/puppies".(Mark,Matt)
9)Women went around with Jesus in his travels:LUKE 8:1-3.
10)Women found empty tomb.
11)JOHN-BAPTIST baptized Jesus(but why if Jesus was God and baptism is to cleanse yourself of sins?):MARK 1:9/MATT 3:13-15/but in LUKE 3:21,it only says Jesus was baptized,and John-Baptist is not mentioned.
12)The phrase "this generation" in Olivet Discourse:MARK 13:30/MATT 24:34/LUKE 21:32.
13)JOHN-BAPTIST doubted Jesus was the Messiah:MATT 11:1-6.
14)MARK 16:8 has women "not tell anyone because they were afraid."

minoria said...

INTERPOLATIONS

Invented for propaganda:

1.Miracles of Jesus.

2.Jesus prophesizes his death and resurrection in 3 days:"Son of Man sayings".
a.)1st time:MATT 16:21/MARK 8:31/LUKE 9:22.
b.)2nd time:MATT 17:22-23/MARK 9:31/LUKE 9:43-44.
c.)3rd time:MATT 20:17-19/MARK 10:32-34/LUKE 18:31-34.

3.He prophesizes the destruction of TEMPLE of Jerusalem:MARK 13:1-2/MATT 24:1-2/LUKE 21:56
4.Prophesizes destruction of Jerusalem:LUKE 13:33-35/LUKE 19:41-44/MATT 23:37-39.

5.Jesus says he is God(The position of those like DUNN and VERMES,who say those parts were invented).

minoria said...

JESUS AS GOD IN THE SYNOPTICS

1."Son of Man is Lord of Sabbath":MARK 2:28/LUKE 6:5/MATT12:8
2."Son of Man forgives sins":MARK 2:1-12/MATT 9:1-8/LUKE 5:17-26
3."Do not fear,I AM":MARK 6:50/MATT 14:22-27/JOHN 6:16-21(using EXOD 3:13-15)
4.Jesus applies PSALM 8:3(which is only about God)to himself in MATT 21:14-16.
5.Jesus orders,commands God (in original Greek)to forgive those who kill him:LUKE 23:33-34.Can you imagine Mohammed saying to Allah"I COMMAND you to defeat the Meccans"?

JESUS AND MIRACLES

Many NT scholars believe their is a real basis for the miracles by Jesus in the gospels.NOT that he actually did miracles but that he was SO charismatic that he could cause a real recovery among sick people.The power of the mind,of positive thinking,of good feelings to effect phyiscal changes.Something documented by science.We have such examples:

RASPUTIN:he was a charlatan who posed as a holy man in Russia.He had an astonishing hynoptic power.It is very well documented by friend and foe.He had tremendous influence over the last Tsar,Nicholas II,because he could actually stopped the bleeding of the Tsarevich Alexis.He had hemophilia.Technically speaing,it is something that is impossible.

PLACEBO:fake medicine often used by doctors to help patients recover.Because they think it help,even though it is worthless,it often helps.

WITCHDOCTOR:documented cases of societies where the witchdoctor puts a curse on a healthy man.Then man is SO convinced that he will die,that the curse is effective,that he does die in 1 week.

NORMAN COUSINS(1915-1990):American writer famous for having helped himself out of a major illness using laughter and happy thoughts.Books:"Anatomy of an Illness" and "Human Options:an Autobiographical Notebook."

SKIN CONDITION:a famous case where a boy with a very rare skin condition,where the skin was all wrinkled like a reptile's,actually got alot better,when the doctor told the boy he would get better.The boy believed it so much most of the skin became normal.Power of suggestion.

SOME EXPLANATIONS

FIG TREE AFFAIR:it was not the time for figs in Palestine.But a few weeks before, the tree gives a substance called naqsa.It is eatable.Hungry peasents often eat it.THAT was what Jesus was looking to eat.BUT,but if it doesn't appear it means the tree with give NO figs that year.Jesus took advantage of the fact to give a moral lesson.

JESUS BAPTIZED FOR SINS:He did NOT have to be baptized.He did it as an example to all of us.The xample of being humble.He said once:"The GREATEST among you will be the servant of you all."The truly great man helps others.

GENTILES AND DOGS

The word used means little dogs/puppies.It seems he knew the woman was 100% determined.So he used the diminutive to show to her he was testing her,not because he was 100% determined from the beginning to say NO.She recognized this.

minoria said...

OCCAM'S RAZOR

It says when we have 2 equally good explanations for something,select the one that has the LEAST assumptions.

First,scholars eliminate the supernatural.No prophecies ever happen.So we have 2 options:

MARK is from 50 AD,LUKE-ACTS and MATT from 61 AD.(because ACTS ends before James' death in 62 AD,and with Paul alive,and doesn't mention death of Peter,Paul in 64 AD,nor destruction of Temple-Jerusalem in 70 AD.Good propaganda value.).LATER someone added:

1.Son of Man sayings of death-resurrection of Jesus
2.Prophecies of Temple-city.
3.Parts were Jesus says indirectly he is God.
4.Miracles by Jesus.

BUT...

If the Synoptics didn't have so much supposedly embarassing material it would be said AND if it did not involved THREE books but only ONE.But since they do it's simpler to say MARK is from 70-75 AD,with interpolations.The same for LUKE-ACTS,MATT.Because to accept 50 AD would mean there was a conspiracy to add false material,to not just ONE,or TWO but THREE books at the same time.

The interpolations would be:1)Jesus says he is God.2)prediction of death-resurrection.3)destruction of temple-city prediction.4)miracles.
And that requires to many assumptions for which there is no evidence.

SON OF MAN SAYINGS

There are 50 in all 4 gospels.They are NOWHERE else in the NT,Paul doesn't use the expression.It's believed they are real sayings by Jesus,or highly probable. because it has NEVER been used as a Messianic title by the Church.

MESSIANIC SON OF MAN (in MATTHEW)

Just taking MATT in MATT 25:31-33,part of the Olivet Discourse, the Son of Man is Messianic(Son of Man "sits on his throne" ).He calls him "their KING" 2X (verse 34,verse 40)It is part of the Parable of the Sheep and Goats,where the Son of Man judges the nations.

MATT 20:28,where Jesus says HE is the Son of Man:"the Son of Man CAME(note:past tense,he already arrived)not to be served but to serve and give his life as a ransom."(Remember MATT 3X has Son of Man will die,resurrect in 3 days).MATT 20:28 is alsoin MARK 10:45(and again MARK also 3X has Son of Man will die-rise on 3rd day.)

Again in the Olivert Discourse MATT 24:27(coming of the Son of Man will be sudden) and MATT 24:30 (Son of Man will come on clouds of heaven(Daniel 7).)

Sepher Shalom said...

It's not safe for Fathima to go back to Sri Lanka? No, she said it's not safe for her to back to Ohio. This cannot be allowed to happen in America. The legal system better not fail this poor young girl. If it does, this is officially no longer the same nation I was born in.

Jeff said...

I have posted a blog article concerning Rifqa Bary as well, and have included many additional links and additional information in the comments:
http://jeffjenkinsocala.blogspot.com/

Her court date is Friday, August 21st. Please pray for her. If she is returned to Ohio, her life is forfeit.

Jeff said...

Please check out this website dedicated to Rifqa Bary: http://rifqabary.com/index.html

Her court hearing is tomorrow, August 21st, Friday. If she is sent back to Ohio to her father and family, she will most certainly be murdered. The DCF does not seem to believe her life is in danger.

Rifqa Bary hails from Sri Lanka, where the Shafi’i school of Islamic jurisprudence prevails.
A Shafi’i manual of Islamic law directs that “when a person who has reached puberty and is sane
voluntarily apostatizes from Islam, he deserves to be killed. In such a case, it is obligatory
for the caliph (A: or his representative) to ask him to repent and return to Islam. If he does, it is accepted from him, but if he refuses, he is immediately killed.” ('Umdat al-Salik o8.1-2).

Please contact the Governor and ask him to make sure that the Department of Children and Families keeps custody of Rifqa Bary. She cannot go back to Ohio.

People can also contact George Sheldon, Secretary of the DCF.

Governor Charlie Crist:
Phone: (850) 488-7146
Fax: (850) 487-0801
Email: Charlie.Crist@MyFlorida.com

George Sheldon, Secretary:
1317 Winewood Blvd.
Building 1, Room 202
Tallahassee, Florida 32301
Fax: (850) 922-2993

The United Nations estimates that as many as 5,000 women are murdered in such honor killings
each year for offenses like immodesty or refusing an arranged marriage. And they may be on the rise in the U.S.

minoria said...

Hey Jeff!

I read your message 10 min ago.How I wish I had read it earlier.I have already sent an email to Charlie Crist.It has been received because an email was sent back saying they had received it.

I have also sent an email just 5 min ago to AMANA SHEIKH,an ex-Muslim young woman of the UK,now Christian,who has 5 videos in youtube.She knows me via email.

I asked her to tell her friends to do likewise.

And also another email to a Christian acquaintance,to send a message to the governor and tell his friends to do the same.

Thanks,man,for the info.I am new to this,I should have thought of sending an email a long time ago.

Unknown said...

Wow...again guilt has already been placed with the parents by everyone here...I am not sure how you all came to that decision..but I can guess that from the fact that you have already tried this case your next step logical step will be to take all muslim children away from there parents cause there is the possibility of danger...lets look only at the fact that they are muslim and nothing else.

Apostasy in Islam: you seem to have set in stone what Islam says...has anyone done any research or have you been just listening to what everyone else is saying...at the least please go to wikipedia and look it up (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam)It gives you at least a well rounded look at it. To summarize it mentions that the Quran mentions that apostates will be dealt in the afterlife by god citing many references.

It does also state that in Islamic Sharia Law that the penalty for Apostasy is death. Please note that in Sharia Law this is something determined by what is the likes of a court. No father can choose to kill there daughter at home for any reason. Islamic law states that in the absence of such a court the the Law of the Land. It also references the case of Salman Rushdi a very famous Apostasy case. He was caught in Iran in 2006 (you will remember this is the man who wrote a book saying some very bad things about out Prophet (PBUH)) So was he killed like a rabid dog? No...he was released for being mentally incompetent....funny how the threat to him in 1989 was all over the American Media but this relatively unnoticed (even I didnt know until reading it here)

Rifqa's claim: The only way I can get you to understand that a claim isnt the truth us perhaps by using this example: Is every Christian Clergy or Minister accused of Child molestation guilty? After all as a human being if I was put in a state of Celebacy there are going to be some serious human biological needs that need to be met. The media has shown me enough examples of this (although now I believe the Media is treating it as old news and the norm so not the shocker as it was at one point) So...is every claim true??

Unknown said...

Wow...again guilt has already been placed with the parents by everyone here...I am not sure how you all came to that decision..but I can guess that from the fact that you have already tried this case your next step logical step will be to take all muslim children away from there parents cause there is the possibility of danger...lets look only at the fact that they are muslim and nothing else.

Apostasy in Islam: you seem to have set in stone what Islam says...has anyone done any research or have you been just listening to what everyone else is saying...at the least please go to wikipedia and look it up (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam)It gives you at least a well rounded look at it. To summarize it mentions that the Quran mentions that apostates will be dealt in the afterlife by god citing many references.

It does also state that in Islamic Sharia Law that the penalty for Apostasy is death. Please note that in Sharia Law this is something determined by what is the likes of a court. No father can choose to kill there daughter at home for any reason. Islamic law states that in the absence of such a court the the Law of the Land. It also references the case of Salman Rushdi a very famous Apostasy case. He was caught in Iran in 2006 (you will remember this is the man who wrote a book saying some very bad things about out Prophet (PBUH)) So was he killed like a rabid dog? No...he was released for being mentally incompetent....funny how the threat to him in 1989 was all over the American Media but this relatively unnoticed (even I didnt know until reading it here)

Rifqa's claim: The only way I can get you to understand that a claim isnt the truth us perhaps by using this example: Is every Christian Clergy or Minister accused of Child molestation guilty? After all as a human being if I was put in a state of Celebacy there are going to be some serious human biological needs that need to be met. The media has shown me enough examples of this (although now I believe the Media is treating it as old news and the norm so not the shocker as it was at one point) So...is every claim true??

Unknown said...

Wow...again guilt has already been placed with the parents by everyone here...I am not sure how you all came to that decision..but I can guess that from the fact that you have already tried this case your next step logical step will be to take all muslim children away from there parents cause there is the possibility of danger...lets look only at the fact that they are muslim and nothing else.

Apostasy in Islam: you seem to have set in stone what Islam says...has anyone done any research or have you been just listening to what everyone else is saying...at the least please go to wikipedia and look it up (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam)It gives you at least a well rounded look at it. To summarize it mentions that the Quran mentions that apostates will be dealt in the afterlife by god citing many references.

It does also state that in Islamic Sharia Law that the penalty for Apostasy is death. Please note that in Sharia Law this is something determined by what is the likes of a court. No father can choose to kill there daughter at home for any reason. Islamic law states that in the absence of such a court the the Law of the Land. It also references the case of Salman Rushdi a very famous Apostasy case. He was caught in Iran in 2006 (you will remember this is the man who wrote a book saying some very bad things about out Prophet (PBUH)) So was he killed like a rabid dog? No...he was released for being mentally incompetent....funny how the threat to him in 1989 was all over the American Media but this relatively unnoticed (even I didnt know until reading it here)

Rifqa's claim: The only way I can get you to understand that a claim isnt the truth us perhaps by using this example: Is every Christian Clergy or Minister accused of Child molestation guilty? After all as a human being if I was put in a state of Celebacy there are going to be some serious human biological needs that need to be met. The media has shown me enough examples of this (although now I believe the Media is treating it as old news and the norm so not the shocker as it was at one point) So...is every claim true??

Fernando said...

Hi Shiraz... postting tree times the same comment does nott make it more true... and who is someone thate presents as proof a wiki page? whate credebility can you expect us to gibe you? More: you onlly pointte rectorical questions thate do nott habe a single connection withe this thread... the point is: is Rifqa Bary in danger off loosing her liffe IFF she returns to her family when her father sayde HE WOULDE KILL HER IFF SHE CONVERTED TO CHRISTIANITTY? I woulde say: yes. YES SHE IS IN DANGER. And why woulde her father say so? Is he simply a lunattic, or is he following a tipical standard procedure in islamic cultures? I woulde say the latter...

Unknown said...

Fernando...I apologize for the technical difficulties...however the only proof you have of Rifqa being in danger is that she is Muslim; she claimed to threaten her.

I believe I have spoken to the Muslim angle in my first comment. It is not in the Quran; but there it is in the Hadith...so Sharia Law in many countries does perscribe it...however again in the absence of a council or some proceeding there is no chance of Bary killing his daughter at home unless he is some sort of crazy person...the authorities are now investigating that. In terms of getting some actual numbers that might help you I was looking for some sort of number of conversion from Islam to Christianity and then the # of honor killings. I was unable to find anything.

Rifqa's claim: vs the claim that her parents- again you do not have the details to properly assess who's claim is correct...that is what they are investigating now. Thank god at least the people in your Justice system do not operate on gossip and Bias (although it appears they are affected as well)

You never really responded to the court side of Sharia Law or the fact that it cannot be upheld in ones own home...or the Minister accusation example.

You say some pretty rough things about Muslims..some might even say these things are "unchristian to say about anyone" However I can understand your pain. After all the number of Muslims converting to Christianity are DWARFED by the number of Christians converting to Muslims..Islam is still the #1 growing religion in the world. Formerly Christian countries like the US, Canada, England are in all sad states of moral decay...why? Also would just like to add:



Old Testament Deuteronomy chapter 13, verses 6-9:

6 “If your brother, the son of your mother, your son or your daughter, the wife of your bosom, or your friend who is as your own soul, secretly entices you, saying, ‘Let us go and serve other gods,’ which you have not known, neither you nor your fathers, 7 of the gods of the people which are all around you, near to you or far off from you, from one end of the earth to the other end of the earth, 8 you shall not consent to him or listen to him, nor shall your eye pity him, nor shall you spare him or conceal him; 9 but you shall surely kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterward the hand of all the people.

Sepher Shalom said...

Shiraz said: "however again in the absence of a council or some proceeding there is no chance of Bary killing his daughter at home unless he is some sort of crazy person"

Why is it then that honor killings happen all over the Muslim world, and are carried out by family members in the absence of legal proceedings? Why is it that honor killings happen in Europe and the U.S.? These things are done by people that are clinically sane. Your claims do not match up with reality. It's vigilante justice, nothing more.

Shiraz said:"Old Testament Deuteronomy chapter 13, verses 6-9:

6 “If your brother, the son of your mother, your son or your daughter, the wife of your bosom, or your friend who is as your own soul, secretly entices you, saying, ‘Let us go and serve other gods,’ which you have not known, neither you nor your fathers, 7 of the gods of the people which are all around you, near to you or far off from you, from one end of the earth to the other end of the earth, 8 you shall not consent to him or listen to him, nor shall your eye pity him, nor shall you spare him or conceal him; 9 but you shall surely kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterward the hand of all the people."


Shiraz, even under the most literal interpretation, this passage is only applicable to the people of Israel, and only applies in the land of Israel, which is a tiny fraction of the earth that YHWH set apart as his special possession to give to His people. Furthermore, being a part of B'nai Yisrael is voluntary, so your comparison between Rifqa Bary's situation and this passage utterly fails on all accounts. Let's look at what the most literal branch of Judaism [the ultra-Orthodox] would do on this If Rifqa were a Jew living in HaAretz Yisrael, and she left the faith, and moved away: She is absolutely free to go with no penalty at all. Now, let's look at how they would rule in this case if she were a Jew living in a Jewish community in Ohio who converted and ran to Florida. Well, they weren't living in HaAretz in the first place so the penalty of Deuteronomy 13 does not even apply. If she returned to Ohio, the community would almost certainly ostracize her, but she would under no ruling of harm. You never hear about ultra-Orthodox Jews stoning people who leave the faith. They just shun them out of the community. With Islam, on the other hand, honor killings are far too frequent.

I suppose this is where Islam diverges in a major way, since it directs the Muslims to turn all of the earth into Dar-al-Islam, insuring the Sharia is enforced on the whole earth. What a man-centered religion. Allah can't even establish his religion on his own. He has to get his minions to do it by their own might. I'm glad I serve the Living G-d, YHWH, and don't have to make up for the impotence of Allah.

Anonymous said...

"Sepher Shalom," I just want to thank you for treating other contributors to the forum in a Christlike manner while sharing the truth of who Jesus is. May all who don't know Jesus call out to Him for mercy. He waits with open arms. He is the only mediator between God and man.

And returning to the topic, may the angels of the Lord encamp around Rifqa, and may the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be upon her.