In the 7th Century, Muhammad said: "I will expel the Jews and Christians from the Arabian Peninsula and will not leave any but Muslims" (Sahih Muslim 4366). Medinah, which had a massive Jewish population when Muhammad came to town as a peacemaker, watched its Jewish population disappear at the hands of Muhammad. The Caliphs would carry on Muhammad's work of expelling the Jews, as would later Muslims.
Nevertheless, Jews managed to maintain populations in various places in the Muslim world--until now. Sixty years ago, for instance, there were more than 100,000 Jews in Baghdad. Today, there are eight. Not eight thousand--eight. READ MORE.
37 comments:
David Wood i see that you continue misjudging Islam.
I think that you have to stop your cut and paste tactic to prove your arguments about Islam.
i see that you are completely wrong in your post, as i always see,
Because the first thing that prophet Muhammed PBUH did when he entered Medina is the famous "Constitution Of Medina", and i think that you know it well. the "Constitution Of Medina" contained many points that falsify your post,such as:
(1) This is a document from Muhammad the prophet (governing the relations) between the believers and Muslims of Quraysh and Yathrib, and those who followed them and joined them and labored with them.
(2) The God-fearing believers shall be against the rebellious or him who seeks to spread injustice, or sin or animosity, or corruption between believers; the hand of every man shall be against him even if he be a son of one of them.
(3)To the Jew who follows us belong help and equality. He shall not be wronged nor shall his enemies be aided.
(4)The Jews shall contribute to the cost of war so long as they are fighting alongside the believers.
(5)The Jews of the B. ‘Auf are one community with the believers (the Jews have their religion and the Muslims have theirs), their freedmen and their persons except those who behave unjustly and sinfully, for they hurt but themselves and their families.
(6)The same applies to the Jews of the B. al-Najjar, B. al-Harith, B. Sai ida, B. Jusham, B. al-Aus, B. Tha'laba, and the Jafna, a clan of the Tha‘laba and the B. al-Shutayba. Loyalty is a protection against treachery. The freedmen of Tha ‘laba are as themselves. The close friends of the Jews are as themselves.
(7)The Jews must bear their expenses and the Muslims their expenses. Each must help the other against anyone who attacks the people of this document. They must seek mutual advice and consultation, and loyalty is a protection against treachery. A man is not liable for his ally’s misdeeds. The wronged must be helped.
(8)The Jews must pay with the believers so long as war lasts.
(9)Yathrib shall be a sanctuary for the people of this document.
(10)If any dispute or controversy likely to cause trouble should arise it must be referred to God and to Muhammad the apostle of God. God accepts what is nearest to piety and goodness in this document.
(11)Quraysh and their helpers shall not be given protection.
So Prophet Mohammad PBUH in the Constitution Gave the Following Rights to the non Muslims.
1) The security (dhimma) of God is equal for all groups.
2) Non-Muslim members have equal political and cultural rights as Muslims. They will have autonomy and freedom of religion.
3) Non-Muslims will take up arms against the enemy of the Ummah and share the cost of war. There is to be no treachery between the two.
4)Non-Muslims will not be obliged to take part in religious wars of the Muslims.
5) The Jews were integrated as a part of the "UMMAH" the Islamic society.
So our Prophet PBUH gave to the Jews rights that they had never gained before or after, and the Caliph followed him in this, in contrary of what you said,that they followed him in expelling the Jews.
and especially in your original topic,on which you refer. it's mentioned the Ottomans, and you know that the ottomans times are considered the Golden age for the Jews where they best practiced there freedom and religion. And Jews them selves quoted the Tolerance that they lived in the Islamic societies in the "Convivencia" in Andalusia, and Islamic societies were like utopia, and there culture, science and economics expanded only in the Islamic society, and you must know that they suffered a lot in the Christian societies in Europe (Spanish Inquisition),First, Second and third Crusades,where the Jews fought with Muslims,and have been massacred by christian crusades,ecc.
And that's why they escaped to Muslims where they found freedom.
But lets know why they had to be expelled from the Medina if all of this is right, in Sahih Muslim which you use and consider as authentic,(62 - 1766) it's written as follow ,my translation,: in the authority of (Ibn Rafi' and Abul Razik), that the Jews of "Bany al Nudair an Qurayzah" fought against the Prophet PBUH, and then he expelled "Bani al Nudair" and made peace with "Qurayzah", until "Qurayzah" fought, then he expelled them,except the few of the who entered Islam, and after that the rest of the Jews were expelled. So the Prophet PBUH gave them there rights and made peace with them and in reward he was treated and fought, so the constitution was obvious, and just but they didn't respect it and deserved there expelling, but in the future when the conditions changed, the lived again in peace only in the Islamic society, and that proves that Islam command peace, with all humans, especially the people of the book, but the Justice is justice.
as a summary:
1) Jews left in peace with the prophet, and had all there rights"they where integrated in the Ummah".
2) When the treated the prophet and fought him and didn't follow the constitution they were fought and expelled "except who entered Islam", and this is fully just.
3) In different conditions they lived again in peace only in Islamic societies.
4)They suffered and been obsessed, killed and expelled from Christians in Europe.
e.terminator:
What about this little gem of wisdom from Muhammad in regards to Jews?-
Sahih Bukhari 52.177 - Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him."
Muhammad taught that Muslims are destined to fight and kill the Jews.
What about this little gem of wisdom from Muhammad in regards to Jews?-
Sahih Bukhari 52.177 - Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him."
Muhammad taught that Muslims are destined to fight and kill the Jews.
certainly looks like double standards by Mohammad,here we see his true motive.
What double standards are you talking about. Hey, people are you kidding?
This is a prophecy of a future war, not a call for fighting the Jews,and we can see from the actual condition that we might have a fight with them in any time.
i can see only your double standards.
But what are we discussing now, we are discussing the expelling of the Jews and that this was the attitude of prophet Mohammad PBUH and his Caliph too, while all the historical evidences prove the contrary. So don't try to get us out of the point.
If you can deny or falsify these historical evidences, go on, if you can prove the point go on, but if not,don't discuss another things. This can be discussed in another topics.
If you can deny that the Jews them selves confessed that they lived in the Islamic Nation "Ummah" as the people of the "Dhimma", much more better than they lived in the christian societies, and that they suffered and been expelled, oppressed and killed, please tell me!!!!!
e.terminator: to you just some word: hahahahahahahaha... you're kidding, right? who do you think you're fooling? What you said is just nonsense... hehehehehehehehehe...
The only ones with double standards are people of like you who say that are supposed to kill Jews because that's what happens when the Mahdi comes.Read revelation 19:18 where Jesus gives Christians the ok to eat every one!!!!!!!
The Hypocrisy of you Islamaphobes never ceases to amaze me.
If you can deny that the Jews them selves confessed that they lived in the Islamic Nation "Ummah" as the people of the "Dhimma", much more better than they lived in the christian societies, and that they suffered and been expelled, oppressed and killed, please tell me!!!!!
terminator, are you sure that this is the case?
Have you ever considered this:
In 1291 Isaac ben Samuel, a noted Kabbalist and Palestinian Jew, sought refuge in a Christian-controlled area of Spain after the collapse of the last Crusader kingdom in the Levant. He explained, "For in the eyes of the Muslims, the children of Israel are as open to abuse as an unprotected field. Even in their law and statutes they rule that the testimony of a Muslim is always to be believed against that of a Jew. For this reason our rabbis of blessed memory have said, 'Rather beneath the yoke of Edom [Christendom] than that of Ishmael [Islam].' They [the rabbis] plead for mercy before the Holy One, Blessed be He, saying, 'Master of the World, either let us live beneath Thy shadow or else beneath that of the children of Edom' (Talmud, Gittin 17a)."
Yet the philosopher Maimonides, a Jew who lived for a time in Muslim Spain and then fled that supposedly tolerant and pluralistic land, remarked, "you know, my brethren, that on account of our sins God has cast us into the midst of this people, the nation of Ishmael, who persecute us severely, and who devise ways to harm us and to debase us...No nation has ever done more harm to Israel. None has matched it in debasing and humiliating us. None has been able to reduce us as they have....We have borne their imposed degradation, their lies, and absurdities, which are beyond human power to bear."
Notably, Maimonides directed that Jews could teach rabbinic law to Christians, but not to Muslims. For Muslms, he said, will interpret what they are taught "according to their erroneous principles and they will oppress us. [F]or this reason...they hate all [non-Muslims] who live among them." But the Christians, he said, "admit that the text of the Torah, such as we have it, is intact" -- as opposed to the Islamic view that the Jews and Christians have corrupted their scriptures. Christians, continued Maimonides, "do not find in their religious law any contradiction with ours."
Sounds like Islam was really good for the Jews. Yep! Even better than the Christians.
"Read revelation 19:18 where Jesus gives Christians the ok to eat every one!!!!!!!"
You're kidding, right?
Here's what the verse says.
and he shouted to all the birds flying in the sky, “Come and join in God's great feast! 18 You can eat the flesh of kings, rulers, leaders, horses, riders, free people, slaves, important people, and everyone else
so you u r referring to apocalyptic events in Islam to prove that we r supposed to kill Jews using your criteria Christians are supposed to eat people.
Here's what the verse says.
and he shouted to all the birds flying in the sky, “Come and join in God's great feast! 18 You can eat the flesh of kings, rulers, leaders, horses, riders, free people, slaves, important people, and everyone else
so you u r referring to apocalyptic events in Islam to prove that we r supposed to kill Jews using your criteria Christians are supposed to eat people.
Sup said:
Read revelation 19:18 where Jesus gives Christians the ok to eat every one!!!!!!!"
Elijah replies:
Lets read it in context:
Revelation 19: 17-18 says:
And now I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried out in a loud voice to all the birds flying in the mid-air, "Come gather together for the great supper of God, so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and mighty men, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, small and great."
Hence your so-called cannibals are birds, not humans, and certainly not Christians or Jews.
In future, we would appreciate if any reference to the Bible is presented within its proper context.
Sup wrote:
so you u r referring to apocalyptic events in Islam to prove that we r supposed to kill Jews using your criteria Christians are supposed to eat people.
Hogan replies:
No, in the text Christians did not eat people, birds eat people
Can you show me where in the text it refers to Christians eating people????
“Can you show me where in the text it refers to Christians eating people????” no he can't... he so self-blinded with the toxic mentality of lies and deceit that emerges from Islam that he can’t even figure out which one is his left hand just because his god said that those who’re left-handed are sons of the devil… It would be like saying that the Qur'an (P&SOI) says that no muslim should eat the flesh of another muslim just because Allah (MHBF) want's it just for himself (sura 49:12)...
"He explained, "For in the eyes of the Muslims, the children of Israel are as open to abuse as an unprotected field. Even in their law and statutes they rule that the testimony of a Muslim is always to be believed against that of a Jew."
Reply:
Are you considering this a historical prove, that Prophet Mohammad and his Caliph, had always expelled the Jews??!!
Have you read the full original post (http://www.reuters.com/article/lifestyleMolt/idUSTRE4A812T20081109)there is written that the Jews were fifth of Baghdad's population under the Ottomans rule. So your original post is denying you.
-Do you know what "Alhambra Decree" is? when the Catholic Queen Isabella and Ferdinand of Aragon, with the Help of Father "Tomás de Torquemada" and others ordered the expulsion of the Jews from Spain and all the Kingdom's territories.
-Do you know that the Jews has even helped the Muslims to conquest the Iberian peninsula due to the harsh treatment of the Christian rulers.
-Even if there were periods in the Islamic History where Jews were bad treated, this was not in our Prophets PBUH times, nor his Caliphate, but only short periods by fanatic rulers, and not due to Islamic teachings.
You can find this even in the ""
- Do you know the history of the Jews under Visigoths?
- Do you know who fought with Muslims against Christians in "the battle of Jerez"?
- Do you know who the Advisor of "Abd al-Raḥman I" was ?
- Do you know the History of the Jews under the Rule of "Abd al-Raḥman I", "Al-Ḥakim.", "Ali ibn Yusuf"?
- Do you know who the physician of Sultan Saladin was? "Moses Maimonides", do you know who he learned from "Ibn Rushd" and al "Ghazali", do you know that there still a temple carrying his name in (Abbasya, Cairo, Egpyt).
You still can't prove that prophet Mohammad PBUH and his Caliph, expelled the Jews, and you still can't prove that Islam teaches killing and expelling the Jews;
you are only trying to find some dark side of history, while the good side are numerous and while your christian history has much more dark sides.
And please don’t discuss things out of the topic.
Al right I'll admit I made an error when citing that passage, but since the topic of the post I'm commenting on is anti-semitism. You can see that Jews are dismissed as followers of Satan.
I know what you do; I know that you have a little power; you have followed my teaching and have been faithful to me. I have opened a door in front of you, which no one can close. Listen! As for that group that belongs to Satan, those liars who claim that they are Jews but are not, I will make them come and bow down at your feet. They will all know that I love you.
(Rev. 3:8-10)
I know what you do; I know that you have a little power; you have followed my teaching and have been faithful to me. I have opened a door in front of you, which no one can close. Listen! As for that group that belongs to Satan, those liars who claim that they are Jews but are not, I will make them come and bow down at your feet. They will all know that I love you.
(Rev. 3:8-10)
I guess you want to avoid the fact that this part of the Book of Revelation was written to a particular church, in a particular city, at a particular time who were persecuting a particular people?
I guess its too much to demand Muslims know just a little about Christian Jewish history. ;)
Your wrong the verse is referring to anyone who calls themselves a Jew ,it does not say anything about a city or time.
Also the book of revelation is of apocalyptic nature, so it isn't referring to Jews in a particular time period.
sup,
Have you considered that Jesus and the disciples and a very large number of the early church were Jewish?
If you study the topic more closely you will see that the verse you mention is directed toward the religious hypocrites who's religion was denying their own long awaited Messiah.
sup wrote:
the verse is referring to anyone who calls themselves a Jew
This is the verse again quoted from your reply:
As for that group that belongs to Satan, those liars who claim that they are Jews but are not
How by Heavens did you conclude that the verse talks about anyone who calls himself a jew?!!
If you say: "Those Al Qa'eda terrorists liars who claim that they are muslims but they are not" Do I have the right to say: You are referring to anyone who calls himself a muslim?!! What an illogic!!
sup wrote:
it does not say anything about a city or time
How miserable it is when you commit an error after another then admitting it causing yourself such an embarrassment, while you could have avoided by just reading the exact previous verse (7) which says:
And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write,'These things says He who is holy, He who is true, "He who has the key of David, He who opens and no one shuts, and shuts and no one opens
This is really too funny…
Christians trying to prove that Muslims are Anti-Semitic (even tho Arabs are Semites, oh the irony), or trying to prove that Muslims are Anti-Jew…
It is actually the Christina scriptures that have Jesus (allegedly) saying that Jews are “snakes” and “vipers” and are an “evil and adulterous generation”, a “stiff necked people”…. And that little gem in Matthew 27:25 which ultimately led to acts such as the Inquisition…..
In Islam we respect all races, we are tolerant, and are not Anti-Jew, the Prophet used to visit his Jewish neighbours regularly and enjoyed good relations with them…. Jewish and Islamic theology is actually very similar… we don’t have any of that Trinitarian nonsense…
Good luck trying to prove Islam as anti-Jew…
Really its too funny…
Khayyam wrote:
This is really too funny…
Christians trying to prove that Muslims are Anti-Semitic (even tho Arabs are Semites, oh the irony), or trying to prove that Muslims are Anti-Jew…
It is actually the Christina scriptures that have Jesus (allegedly) saying that Jews are “snakes” and “vipers” and are an “evil and adulterous generation”, a “stiff necked people”…. And that little gem in Matthew 27:25 which ultimately led to acts such as the Inquisition…..
Hogan Eliah replies:
The reference records Jesus rebuking the Pharisees and religious leaders not Jews as a whole.
Even though the reference did include the nation of Israel as a race, we need to consider that Jesus himself was a Jew and his followers were Jewish.
Conclusion, the speech is not condemning a nation or race but a group following a specific ideology.
Khayyam wrote:
In Islam we respect all races, we are tolerant,
Hogan replies:
I find a bit funny though that the unbelievers will receive black faces on the day of judgement while the faces of those who enter paradise will be whitened:
On the Day when (some) faces will be whitened and (some) faces will be blackened; and as for those whose faces have been blackened, it will be said unto them: Disbelieved ye after your (profession of) belief? Then taste the punishment for that ye disbelieved. (Âl 'Imran 3:106)
And on the Day of Resurrection thou (Muhammad) seest those who lied concerning Allah with their faces blackened. Is not the home of the scorners in hell? (Az-Zumar 39:60)
Could be this the reason for the of racistic references to black people in the hadiths.
Khayyam wrote:
and are not Anti-Jew, the Prophet used to visit his Jewish neighbours regularly and enjoyed good relations with them….
Hogan replies:
Was Muhammad not friendly with the Jews prior to the tension in Medina. Did not things change drastically when they rejected him as a prophet of God?
That the Qur'an is not racistic is an overstatement, e.g. these Suras certainly encourage hatred against Jews and Christians as well:
98:6 Verily, those who disbelieve (in the religion of Islam, the Quran and Prophet Muhammad) from among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians) and Al-Mushrikun will abide in the Fire of Hell. They are the worst of creatures.
This Sura is not attacking a group that simply follows a ideology!
No accordingn to this Sura, Christians and Jews are the worst of creatures (that is racism and prejudice). Remember that being Jewish is being a nation. Hence belonging to the nation of Israel or being a Jew is being the most wicked and disgraced of creatures. This is nothing but an attack on those who belong to a specific race.
You cannot deny that such a phrase is utterly racistic.
Furthermore Muslims were encouraged in the Qur'an to engage in military on attacks Jews and Christians for no other reason than because Jews and Christians were not in doctrinal agreement with the Muslims:
9:29 Fight against those who (1) believe not in Allah, (2) nor in the Last Day, (3) nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger (4) and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (i.e. Islam) among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.
You will not find Jesus, Paul or even the book of Revelation even indicating that the Christians are to harm Jews in anyway possible.
Whereas when Muhammad attacked the Jews in Medina, we read:
When the tribe of Bani Quraiza was ready to accept Sad's judgment, Allah's Apostle sent for Sad who was near to him. Sad came, riding a donkey and when he came near, Allah's Apostle said (to the Ansar), "Stand up for your leader." Then Sad came and sat beside Allah's Apostle who said to him. "These people are ready to accept your judgment." Sad said, "I give the judgment that their warriors should be killed and their children and women should be taken as prisoners." The Prophet then remarked, "O Sad! You have judged amongst them with (or similar to) the judgment of the King Allah." (Sahih Bukhari 4.280)
This passage below has already been referred to:
Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him."
Whether this is a future event or not, it certainly encourages the Muslims for a future attack on Jews, when they will literally wipe them out--this is not different from the message of Mein Kampf.
Again we do not find anything of this kind in the New Testament.
We read of Jesus when he met the Jewish crowds:
'When He saw the crowds, He had compassion on them, because they were harassed and helpless, like sheep without a shepherd' (Matthew 9: 36)
Paul in Romans 10: 1 says: 'Brothers, my heart's desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved.'
And in Romans 11: 1 Paul writes:
I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am a Israelite myself.
Khayyam wrote:
Jewish and Islamic theology is actually very similar… we don’t have any of that Trinitarian nonsense…
Hogan Elijah replies:
I can't say I agree with you. Yeah much is similar, mainly since Muhammad was aquainted with the Jews who lived in Arabia.
I don't see why you drag the Trinity in to this, its off topic!
e.Terminator wrote:
When they treated the prophet and fought him and didn't follow the constitution they were fought and expelled "except who entered Islam", and this is fully just
What the "hell justice" you are talking about ?!! Your prophet expelled the entire tribe because some of them supposedly tried to kill him and refused to pay the blood-wit money!!
Sahih Bukhari Volume 5, Book 59, Number 362:
"Bani An-Nadir and Bani Quraiza fought, so the Prophet exiled Bani An-Nadir and allowed Bani Quraiza to remain at their places (in Medina) taking nothing from them till they fought against the Prophet again. He then killed their men and distributed their women, children and property among the Muslims, but some of them came to the Prophet and he granted them safety, and they embraced Islam. He exiled all the Jews from Medina. They were the Jews of Bani Qainuqa', the tribe of 'Abdullah bin Salam and the Jews of Bani Haritha and all the other Jews of Medina"
Exiling all jews of all tribes, killing all men of Bani Quraiza, and distributing their women, children, and properties on Muslims. Ohh What a man of tolerance and mercy your prophet really is !!
Imagine yourself being exiled from your homeland or killed while your wife, children and properties being distributed on others just because another tribe of the same religion as yours broke a treaty!! Hows this for "Holy Divine Justice?" huh !!
How then can you dare to blame a muslim who mistreats any jew who encounters him, inspired by the tribal actions of his prophet when wiping the entire Jewish tribe off the face of the earth by execution and enslavement, when some of them break a treaty!!
and you know that the ottomans times are considered the Golden age for the Jews where they best practiced there freedom and religion.
You are talking about Ottomanians as if they were taking Islamic and your prophet's teachings seriously !! The social, political, and religious corruption of Ottomanians are filling history books. As a small sample, read the following:
"Despite all the advances achieved by the Ottomans in Europe in the name of Islam, the method of rotation of power was far from Islam, and humanitarian norms and laws, and the Ottomans invented new methods to maintain their power and prevent competition among themselves for power, and kill all potential competitors to Sultan Of innocent brothers and sons take on the new Sultan of power prior to those victims in any practical step counter, putting the rest in the prisons or cages family. The murder sometimes include children of brothers and uncles, so it becomes a habit formal law in the Ottoman court, and began this action, horrific percent over the first sultan, who was killed with his hands, his brother strangled e 791 years in 1389 and then turned to the law firm. Accordingly, the killing of Sultan Mohammed III in 1595 Nineteen his brother and two of his sons, on his assumption of power.
Instead of protecting the law of the system as it was believed the Ottomans, it is in fact a reason for weakness and raise the struggle for power, by brothers and sons, to defend themselves from preventive murder."
So ottomanians were very far from purely implementing Islam's teachings, and letting jews live in peace is just a small part of their neglect and disregard of their prophet's actions and sayings.
No wonder when any non-muslim can live peacefully when muslims around him just do not take Islamic teachings seriously.
Yes Jews don't believe Jesus to be the messiah so they follow Satan according to your book
Sup wrote:
Your wrong the verse is referring to anyone who calls themselves a Jew ,it does not say anything about a city or time.
Also the book of revelation is of apocalyptic nature, so it isn't referring to Jews in a particular time period.
Hogan Elijha replies:
A few corrections
First and most it is not referring to any Jew. It is referring to those who belonged to the Synagogues of Smyrna (Revelation 2: 9) and Philadelphia (Revelation 3: 9) in the later part of the first century.
It is not referring to Jews as a whole but those who follow a belief system. At this period of time there were many Christian Jews, Gnostic Jews (of various kinds), less religious Jews, and Jews who had hatred toward either Judaism or Christianity.
The context also alludes to the persecution or slander of these Jews against the Christians. Jewish leaders in the first century were quite antagonistic against Christians, both prior and after the fall of Jerusalem. When Polycarp the bishop of Smyrna who was the disciple of John the apostle was executed, the Jews were the most eager to get rid of him, and the synagogue in Smyrna was the very one referred to by the book of Revelation as the synagogue of Satan.
In this context it also refers to a specific location in a specific time. As to my later point here, you also seem to assume that since the Revelation is Apocalyptic it is out of time.
That is an absurd interpretation, in fact the first three chapters are very historical and even continue if you look into the early church fathers of the second century. It is true that the situation of every church can apply to various ages and locations, but such only provides the consquences or benefits of a church that should follow the examples of the Seven churches.
I'm aware of the context, but it explicitly says that the Jews did was that they were saying cruel things. You say cruel things about our prophet, such as he was demon possessed. Would it be acceptable for me to say that you belong to Satan ?
Hogan Elijah Hagbard,
Man, do you actually read what you have written?
“The reference records Jesus rebuking the Pharisees and religious leaders not Jews as a whole.
Even though the reference did include the nation of Israel as a race, we need to consider that Jesus himself was a Jew and his followers were Jewish.
Conclusion, the speech is not condemning a nation or race but a group following a specific ideology.”
The same can be said about Mohammad (PBUH), the Quran & Hadith never condems ALL Jews, the Quran clearly says that amongst Jews (and Christians) there are true believers.
002.062
YUSUFALI: Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.
PICKTHAL: Lo! Those who believe (in that which is revealed unto thee, Muhammad), and those who are Jews, and Christians, and Sabaeans - whoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right - surely their reward is with their Lord, and there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve.
SHAKIR: Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the f Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve.
Hogan replies:
”I find a bit funny though that the unbelievers will receive black faces on the day of judgement while the faces of those who enter paradise will be whitened”
This is not to be taken literally, black and white in many languages refers to guilt/ innocence.. eg when we say someone’s heart has been blackened we don’t mean it literally…
The earliest followers of the Prophet included Bilal, a freed negro slave. If Islam is anti-black then there must be something that Bilal and millions of Africans / Asians others have missed reading. The prophet in his final sermon clearly stated that a Arab is not greater then a Non-Arab and vice versa. Unlike Christians we Muslims have never had to segregate our Mosques (like black churches vs white churches in South Africa and USA a while ago)
Muslim are not commanded to slay Jews… but, what happens to those Jews who Reject Jesus (after the second coming) according to the NT Prophecy?
Peace
Khayyam
Elija wrote:
Hogan Elijah Hagbard,
Man, do you actually read what you have written?
“The reference records Jesus rebuking the Pharisees and religious leaders not Jews as a whole.
Even though the reference did include the nation of Israel as a race, we need to consider that Jesus himself was a Jew and his followers were Jewish.
Conclusion, the speech is not condemning a nation or race but a group following a specific ideology.”
Khayyam replies:
The same can be said about Mohammad (PBUH), the Quran & Hadith never condems ALL Jews, the Quran clearly says that amongst Jews (and Christians) there are true believers.
002.062
YUSUFALI: Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.
PICKTHAL: Lo! Those who believe (in that which is revealed unto thee, Muhammad), and those who are Jews, and Christians, and Sabaeans - whoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right - surely their reward is with their Lord, and there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve.
SHAKIR: Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the f Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve.
Elijah replies to Khayyam's response:
The passages you are posting are from the Meccan period (if am not totally wrong). The voice of Allah changes drastically in Medina when Muhammad possess military power and the Jews reject Muhammad as a prophet. Prior to that Jews, Christians and Sabeans are all saved.
How about looking at the passages that allegedly were revealed by God within the Medina period, such as Sura 9: 29:
'Fight against those who (1) believe not in Allah, (2) nor in the Last Day, (3) nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger (4) and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (i.e. Islam) among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.'
Clearly the passage orders the subjection and suppression of all Jews and Christians.
Furthermore, the other passage we quoted about Jews hiding behind rocks, and the rocks crying out to the Muslims: 'there is a Jew behind me kill him'
This is ISlam preparing Muslims for a future genocide of Jews on a geographical scale.
Lets also point out that the references to Jews in the Qur'an as belonging to satan and being the worst of creatures, was a reaction to the rejection of Muhammad. You cannot eisegise Meccan passages into this situation.
When Jesus rebukes the Jews e.g. in Matthew 23 he particulary rebuks the teachers of the law for deceiving the people, he is not even referring to any Jew anywhere who denies him. To those who generally deny him, which is mentioned in Matthew 10, there is severe judgement, hell fire, but the wording used in Matthew 23 is within the context for the teachers of the law only.
In the passages quoted from the Revelation, the context does not refer to any synagogue anywhere but to a group of Jews locally attending a synagogue that verbally and probably physically persecuted the Christians. If you are interested in this topic read the 'Martyrdom of Polycarp' or 'Justin Martyr's dialogue with Trypho'.
Also you refer to true Christians and true Jews in Muhammad's time. But what is a true Christian and a true Jew. If a Jew accepts Islam or Muhammad he is no longer a Jew. If a Christian embraces Islam he is no longer a Christian, and a Christian is a follower of Christ, while the majority muslims follow the Sunnah, which categorize them Muhammidaists (whether you like it or not), hence such a person can no longer be a Christian or Jews but a muhammedam.
Hogan Elijah Replied to Khayyam earlier:
Hogan replies:
”I find a bit funny though that the unbelievers will receive black faces on the day of judgement while the faces of those who enter paradise will be whitened”
Khayyam replies:
This is not to be taken literally, black and white in many languages refers to guilt/ innocence.. eg when we say someone’s heart has been blackened we don’t mean it literally…
Elijah replies:
Funny because when you look at the Bible Muslims take everything literally, now suddenly it does not apply, why is that?
How do you prove to me that the wording is not to be taken literarlly, can you show me any other passage from the Qur'an that verifies this? I mean does Allah himself provide this interpretation to the particular passage you are giving me?
Anyway I did not assume anyway that we are refering to white and black people here, but the fact that black skin indicates condemnation.
My point was that such wording can lead to racism.
Khayyam wrote:
The earliest followers of the Prophet included Bilal, a freed negro slave. If Islam is anti-black then there must be something that Bilal and millions of Africans / Asians others have missed reading. The prophet in his final sermon clearly stated that a Arab is not greater then a Non-Arab and vice versa. Unlike Christians we Muslims have never had to segregate our Mosques (like black churches vs white churches in South Africa and USA a while ago)
Elijah replies:
I can't say I agree with you on all this. Yeah I agree that there were early black Muslims. However, we also know that black slave trade was much more a Muslim thing than a European thing, we also know that black slavery still thrives is Arabic countries. Probably at least a hundred thousand Christian black slaves from Sudan are still being held in slavery.
As to segregation, well, you find Shiah and Sunni Mosques, they separate over differences in Islam; these factions even kill each other.
I do know that there exist Bengali Mosques and Pakistani mosques in UK, in some UK locations, these groups cant even worship together; so we are already seing a split due to nationality.
Khayyam wrote:
Muslim are not commanded to slay Jews… but, what happens to those Jews who Reject Jesus (after the second coming) according to the NT Prophecy?
Elijah replies:
First and most the Qur'an itself refutes you on this. Sura 9: 29 clearly commands Muslims to attack and subjugate Jews, simply because the religion and practice of Jews and Christians is different. The text says nothing about Muslims attacking due to the need to defend themselves, as we are told over and over again by Muslim apologists. In that case I would like Allah himself in the Qur'an to interpret the particular passage in that manner, and he does not! Again this is a matter of eisegesis and misinterpretation--a distortion of the meaning of the text.
Yeah and what happens to those Jews who reject Jesus? Well the same thing that happens to any non-Christians including Muslims who reject the previous revelations and their message, they go to hell fire FOREVER. In the same way as Muslims assume that those who reject Muhammmad will be condemned to hell.
Be blessed
Elijah
Sup,
Your wrong the verse is referring to anyone who calls themselves a Jew ,it does not say anything about a city or time.
No, you're wrong. The passage in particular is referring to the Church in Philadelphia (v.7) Secondly the passage is referring to a sepcific people. The Church of Philadelphia, which were under persecution by Jews, or perhaps people who claimed to be Jews. (v.9) Which is whythe passage calls them liars either because they claimed to be ethnic Jews, or claimed to be true Jews, while Christians are the true Israel.
Either way, its clear you are not reading the entire passage.
Also the book of revelation is of apocalyptic nature, so it isn't referring to Jews in a particular time period.
I guess as well as learning how to cut and paste, you need to learn basic exegesis. Revelation is taken to be apocalyptic, its also widely known that these churches really existed and this book was written to those Churches, of course, granted these themes can be applied to all churches. Nonetheless, this specific instance had special meaning to first century Philadelphian Christians.
7"To the angel of the church in Philadelphia write:
These are the words of him who is holy and true, who holds the key of David. What he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open. 8I know your deeds. See, I have placed before you an open door that no one can shut. I know that you have little strength, yet you have kept my word and have not denied my name. 9I will make those who are of the synagogue of Satan, who claim to be Jews though they are not, but are liars—I will make them come and fall down at your feet and acknowledge that I have loved you. 10Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth. 11I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take your crown. 12Him who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will he leave it. I will write on him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on him my new name. 13He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. Revelations 3
Hey Javier,
You didn't address,latest previous comment. Also their are Jews who say as your book puts it cruel things about Jesus according to black baron that denying he is the messiah, so your book condemns Jews(of most don't believe Jesus is the messiah) as followers Satan.
You didn't address,latest previous comment.
Thats fine, I addressed your previous responses.
Also their are Jews who say as your book puts it cruel things about Jesus according to black baron that denying he is the messiah,
No idea what this means.
so your book condemns Jews(of most don't believe Jesus is the messiah) as followers Satan.
Apparently, you're not aware that the Bible condemns all men as children of the devil, depraved, foolish, wicked and that they supress the truth in unrighteousness and instead create idols, whether it be other gods or actual wooden statues.
Yes, my Bible does that of unbelieving Jews, but not only unbelieving Jews, but Muslims, Hindus, Mormons etc.
Just because your bible isn't singling out Jews doesn't mean it isn't anti-semitic.Also since you admit your bible says non-believers are the children of the devil stop throwing accusations of anti-semitism against Islam.
Sup wrote
Just because your bible isn't singling out Jews doesn't mean it isn't anti-semitic.
Elijah replies:
So now you admit that the Bible is not anti-Jewish.
Yet what do you mean when you say the Bible is anti-semitic?
Can you show me the actual passages of anti-semitism
How do you explain that virtually all writers in the Bible except Luke were semitic?
Sub wrote:
Also since you admit your bible says non-believers are the children of the devil stop throwing accusations of anti-semitism against Islam.
Elijah replies:
This is a very different topic from racism. The very meaning behind it is our depraved state as human bound to sin and rebell against the command of God, because we are bound by satan and do his will, this includes both Jews and non-Jews and is not a racial issue.
What we pointed out with the Qur'an in connection to Jews was, that the Qur'an specifically categorizes the Jews (and Christians, but lets leave that for now) as the worst of creatures.
This is the condemnation of a race by group that predominately at the time was not Jewish. Based upon what we categorize as racism this is racism. If the Qur'an had simply revealed that the specific Jews in that location at that time were behaving so and so, fine, but describing them as the worst of creatures is another matter.
Imagine if the Bible categorized Muslims as the worst of all creatures.
Javier said the bible says it says non-believers(which include jews) are children of the devil. Now show me these anti-semitic passages in the Quran.
“Your prophet expelled the entire tribe because some of them supposedly tried to kill him and refused to pay the blood-wit money”
In the Hadeeth that you quoted to prove your point, (Sahih Bukhari Volume 5, Book 59, Number 362) is written (Bani An-Nadir and Bani Quraiza fought), so both the entire tribes fought, not some of them, but what did the prophet PBUH do, he expelled only Bani An-Nadir, and he (allowed Bani Quraiza to remain at their places (in Medina) taking nothing from them), so you can’t tell that he expelled them because they refused paying blood-wit money, the truth was that they broke the treaty.
“Imagine yourself being exiled from your homeland or killed while your wife, children and properties being distributed on others just because another tribe of the same religion as yours broke a treaty!! How’s this for "Holy Divine Justice?" huh!!”
I can see your ignorance of history in your speech, because what happened is that the Prophet PBUH only surrounded Bani-Qurayaza after their second attack and when they surrendered he made them choose an adjudicator,(and in the history I can’t remember a wining party that made their defeated trader choose an adjudicator, except Prophet Muhammad PBUH ) and they choosed Sa’d Bin Mo’az, and where did Sa’d derived his judgment form? From your and their holy book, saying”lets apply on them what is written in their book”, (Deuteronomy20:13 And when the LORD your God gives it into your hand, you shall put all its males to the sword, 20:14 but the women and the little ones, the livestock, and everything else in the city, all its spoil, you shall take as plunder for yourselves. And you shall enjoy the spoil of your enemies, which the LORD your God has given you.), So you believe that God’s words in his holy book as your believe are, violent, intolerant, not merciful, not just and not applicable. Is this what you want to tell me?
“Just because another tribe of the same religion as yours broke a treaty”
So he made a peace treaty with them and they lived in peace till they broke the treaty, and you know how did they broke the treaty? They helped the non believers to fight against Muslims and in killing many of them, and when they surrendered we found with them 1500 swords, 2000 Spears, 500 gears ready to be used in killing Muslims. But in your Holy book there is no possibility to make such peace treaty (Deuteronomy 7:2 and when the LORD your God has delivered them over to you and you have defeated them, then you must destroy them totally. Make no treaty with them, and show them no mercy).
Also saying that he killed or expelled all the Jews after they broke the treaty is not true, in the same Hadeeth of “Sahih Bukhary” that you quoted, and that you consider authentic, “but some of them came to the Prophet and he granted them safety” so I conclude one of 2 things, or you don’t understand what you read or that you are lying.
Well, I see that you can’t deny that the Jewish Golden age were under the Islamic rule of the Ottomans, but saying that this happened because they were not good Muslims, is your words, and nothing more, The Ottomans Empire lasted for more than 600 years, and they were periods where they were good and period where they were bad, so you can’t say that they were not taking seriously the Islamic teachings, but the truth is that Islamic sciences were too important in the Ottomans rule and the Sultan were considered the “Servant of the Haramayn” the 2 holy mosques of Mecca and Medina, except in the last 2 centuries in their rule when they have been weakened and cultural invaded by the European Atheists.
Finally you didn’t offer something convenient to prove your point, but just lies and misconceptions.
Just because your bible isn't singling out Jews doesn't mean it isn't anti-semitic.
Um, yes it does. You obviously don't understand anything about the nature of the scripture. The Bible is God's word to man, his revelation regarding himself. The Bible also speaks of the state of man and God, and in this sense it speaks of mans sinfulness and God's holiness. This is why unbelievers are enemies of God.
Also since you admit your bible says non-believers are the children of the devil stop throwing accusations of antisemitism against Islam.
Its one thing to argue that the Bible is antisemitic on the basis of statements made about all people, and its another to argue that the Quran is antisemitic on the basis that it makes explicit reference to a people group.
Now, sir, please realize that I've neutralized the arguments you made against the Bible regarding antisemitism. As for the positive presentation of why Muhammad was antisemitic you should listen to the others such as David Wood.
Javier said the bible says it says non-believers(which include jews) are children of the devil. Now show me these anti-semitic passages in the Quran.
You have obviously committed a logical error. There is much distinction b/w hatred of a people by God, who deserves to hate anyone on the basis of their sin. And the hatred of people by other people on the basis of their ethnic background. Perhaps its time to, umm, get a clue.
The kkk doesn't single out Jews for hatred, so using your logic they aren't anti-semitic. The only hatred of Jews you find in the Quran is on basis of their sin. In this blog post David cited a hadith where the prophet expels the Jews, if you look into the historical context you see that the Jews broke a treaty with the prophet.
For more on their expulsion. see this link
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banu_Qaynuqa#cite_note-Ishaq1-6
I know wikipedia isn't exactly a reliable source but the article does give good references.
Post a Comment