Saturday, September 27, 2008

Keith Truth on One of Sami Zaatari's Arguments

Debates rarely afford the opportunity to thoroughly respond to arguments, which is why post-debate commentary is so valuable. In my first debate with Sami Zaatari, Sami argued that we can know that Muhammad was a prophet because his message was the same as the prophets of the Bible. I responded by noting several significant differences between Muhammad's message and the message of the Bible. In the following video, Keith Truth adds a number of points that help show how utterly absurd it is for Muslims to appeal to the Bible for support.

38 comments:

David said...

I don't think it was a very good idea to include Keith's video response to the recent debate. David, have you ever looked at the crazy rubbish this guy publishes? I mean, illuminati??? This gentleman has the credibility of Texe Mars and the age of Hannah Montana (well, almost). His views should be categorically dismissed, even if he is correct. His overreaching conspiracy paradigm makes him a very poor witness. Please tell me you don't read his mental pablum/wacky diatribe. This is a dangerous worldview to even consider espousing. I hope you will consider digging a little deeper when accepting endorsements from fringe lunatics. It makes me wonder about the credibility of the other posts and videos. Scary.

ben malik said...

what makes you think tht his conspiracy theories are way off? Maybe we should delete your comments for being so skeptical and assume that you are really an anti-supernaturalist with a materialisitc worldview masquerading as a Christian, and that you are wacky for not believing this?

David said...

Gee Ben, I've never been called "anti-supernaturalists" in my life. I believe everything taught in Scripture, I believe Jesus is the same yesterday today and forever, I believe healing and miracles continue today. In fact, because I am an electric wheelchair paralyzed from the neck down I pray for one each and every day and have done so for 30 years. However, I don't believe that George Bush is part of a secret group of men that slaughter goats and worship Satan. Do you believe that? Where is your evidence. You better have some pretty substantial stuff if you're going to start accusing people of devil worship, affiliation with Adolf Hitler, etc. Have you watched all of the conspiracy videos that espouse Keith's views? Do you believe this as well? Yes, I should absolutely be censored and deleted for using the mind God gave me to love Him and think. Heaven forbid you substantiate your claims. That would be asking way too much :-). Careful, I think I see a helicopter with a black X coming to scoop you up and carry you off to the concentration camp specially reserved for anyone that will not acquiesce to the illuminati conspiracy paradigm. Let's see, instead it might be 2008 reasons why Jesus is going to return in 2008. You know, all of this stuff travel along the same mental pathways. Much better to confess Jesus is Lord and trust the clear teachings of Scripture instead of looking for numeric algorithms or playing LP albums backwards to discover Satanic plots. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.

ben malik said...

Well gee David, Keith also believes in all these things. And if he so thinks that there are conspiracy groups out there working to form a one world government in order to usher in the reign of anti-christ, well so be it. Is that damnable heresy? If not then leave him alone and mind your own busy. Thanks.

David Wood said...

I confess that I know practically nothing about Keith apart from what's in the video that someone sent me. All I can say is that the video seems pretty accurate. I didn't know that posting a YouTube video on my site was such a serious matter--requiring background checks and such.

David said...

Ben, I did not know that you knew so much about Keith. I had never heard of this gentleman before David posted his video. After visiting his channel I realized I had left reality. I was clearly very wrong to suggest we have a clue about what people believe when we profile their work. It took about 30 seconds to find this was coming from someone so far out in left field that had actually left the stadium. Anyway, sorry for using my brain. You obviously are correct. Thanks for your help.

Yahya Hayder Seymour said...

*cough* DAMAGE CONTROL *cough*

David Wood said...

Yahya,

What "damage control" are you referring to?

David Wood said...

Or do you really find the following reasoning persuasive?

MUSLIM: "We know that Muhammad was a prophet because his teachings line up with the Bible!"

CHRISTIAN: "What about all of the teachings in the Bible that don't line up with Islam?"

MUSLIM: "All those teachings must have been corrupted!"

CHRISTIAN: "Isn't that circular? You assume that Islam is true, then you call everything that doesn't line up with Islam 'corrupt.' Then, once you've thrown out everything that doesn't line up with Islam, you point out how well everything lines up with Islam."

MUSLIM: "Oh yes! We love circles!"

Dk said...

For a full length rebuttal to Sami visit:

http://www.answering-islam.org/Responses/Osama/zaatari_wood_debate1.htm

http://www.answering-islam.org/Responses/Osama/zaatari_wood_debate2.htm

Sami Zaatari said...

lol i like David, but i also love the damage control.

since the debate we had shamoun with his 2 rebuttals, many other comments, and now this new video!

ever since the debate i have said nothing, i just let the debate speak for itself.

and David and any other Christian, why dont you ever debate Jews on the OT? because you know they will have a field day with each one of you. you are all scared to debate any rabbi on whether the OT supports Christianity.

this is a fact, whether your Christians like it or not, Jews admit the core message of Islam is spot on, while Christianity is paganism. sorry thats just the way it is. :)

David Wood said...

Sami,

Why in the world would I debate a Jew on the OT? Christians, Jews, and Muhammad all agree that the OT is the Word of God. You and other Muslims who have little respect for Muhammad's view are the ones who reject the OT. I wish that your prophet were here, so that you could debate him!

David Wood said...

Hey! Wait a minute! Are you saying that if someone posts comments on a debate after it's over, that person must be doing damage control?

Sami Zaatari said...

david im not saying that, your friend Sam Shamoun has said that time and time again!

and the reason i say debate a Jew on the OT is to debate him and see whether Christianity is found in it! because NO JEW BELIEVES in the trinity, jesus as God, jesus as messiah, dying messiah and rising etc etc, you know this and i know it. so why dont any of you Christians debate a Jewish scholar on these topics? i have yet to see it happen.

Sami Zaatari said...

you claim its circular for me to claim that Muhammad is on the same message as the former prophets when you say the exact same thing concerning Christianity! a Jew would disagree with you BIG TIME, yet you ignore that and say im being inconsistent, common man, give me a break will you (and all the other Christians!)

Muslim: Muhammad's message agrees with the prophets of the past

Christian: No it doesnt your being circular!

Christian: Jesus and the dying messiah and the Trinity are in line with the teachings of the prophets found in the OT

Jew: No, thats a lie, it is not there!

Christian: No, no no no you are wrong let me show you!

do you see the double standards? you dont allow any room of same standards and fairness for a Muslim, but you allow it for yourself and will keep preaching about how the OT backs Christianity.

again, talk is cheap, i challenge any of you Christian apologists to debate a Jew on this topic. and i repeat it is a FACT THAT JEWS DONT HAVE A PROBLEM WITH ISLAM'S MAIN DOCTRINE AND EVEN AGREE THAT IT IS THE SAME AS JUDAISM! yet when it comes to Christianity JEWS ARE 100%
AGAINST IT AND CALL IT PAGANISM AND POLYTHEISM. fact is fact, if i stood infront of a Jewish audience and said Muhammads message is in line with your prophets they wouldnt disagree, but they sure as HECK would disagree if a Christian came up and said yeahhh trinity is in there and all that!

so truly the only circular one here is you David, with your fellow Christians.

David Wood said...

Sami,

Your ability to misunderstand people is amazing. When have I ever claimed this: "We know that Christianity is true because it lines up perfectly with all the previous messengers"? Has any Christian ever argued such a thing? Not at all. We argue that Christianity is true, and then we show that even in the Old Testament, we're told that God was going to provide a New Covenant ("New" = "Not the same as the Old"). One who understands Christianity would have to admit that there are significant differences between Christianity and Judaism, because God instituted a new covenant. Of course, we point to OT prophesies and such, but this is simply to show that God told us that Christianity was coming.

So do we use anything even close to the sort of argument you're using? Not at all. So am I being circular? Not at all. But are you being circular? Absolutely. And now you're committing the Tu Quoque fallacy to try and escape from your previous fallacy!

You said that Jews are 100% against our views. Sami, you really should get out more. I know many Jews who are Christians! So do these Jewish Christians disagree with the teachings of Christianity? My friend, you really have to investigate things more carefully before you speak on them.

Yahya Hayder Seymour said...

David, the point about Jewish Christians was a low blow, you're merely playing around with semantics. You know as well as I do that by "Jews", Sami meant religious observant followers of the faith of Judaism. Not some "Messianic Jews" or Christians of Jewish descent, thats like me arguing Jews agree with Suicide Bombing on Israeli buses due to Joseph Cohen (Yusuf al-Khattab) who believes in it.

Sami Zaatari said...

you talk about misunderstanding people David and then you intentionally twist what i mean when i say Jews by bringing up Christian Jews? sheesh man who are you trying to kid with this garbage?!

you know i was refering to JEWS JEWS TORAH TORAH NO TRINITY NO TRINITY JESUS NO NO, you knew i was referring to them then you intentionally choose to mis-understand me!

again i repeat, talk is what? cheap. so now go and debate a Jewish rabbi.

and yes David i have seen many Christians say Christianity is true because it is in the OT and talked about by the former prophets of God, where have you been all this time?

as for claiming tu quo fallacy, i never claimed the argumentation was wrong in the first place, you believe this form of argumentation is wrong, i dont, hence the tu quo means nothing and doesnt effect me one iota, but merely shows you Christians dont know how to argue and make things up as you go along. you argue against our methods of argumenation when your own Christians do it, thats the point.

Sami Zaatari said...

lol David whats more amusing is that you seem to be more better than your Bible! since when your Gospels open up they always try to force the prophecies on Jesus as proof, i guess that makes you better than your Bible since you claim you prove its true first then move to the OT, i guess no one passed that info to the authors of Mark and Matthew!

lol David you just admited the gospels of mark and matthew are circular because they open up by bringing up prophecies from the OT as proof!

so by YOUR OWN WORDS YOU INDIRECTLY JUST CALLED THE GOSPELS CIRCULAR AND WEAK IN ARGUMENTATION, offcourse you will deny this but your words are right up there where you stated:

Not at all. We argue that Christianity is true, and then we show that even in the Old Testament

end quote

thats what YOU SAID, you argue its true first THEN MOVE TO THE OT, well mark and good ole matthew argued from THE OT FIRST, so you just dissed your own Gospels. amazing.

David Wood said...

Sami,

Once again, you've misunderstood the arguments completely. There's a massive difference between:

(1) There are prophecies about Christianity in the Old Testament,

and

(2) We know that Christianity is true because it's identical to the message found in the Old Testament.

(1) is true. (2) is nonsense. Now, what was your argument? Your argument was much closer to (2). Hence, there's practically no resemblance between your argument and anything that Christians maintain. Hence, you stand alone, and your argument is absurd and circular.

Now concerning the Jews, let me see if I understand you. There are tons of Jews in the world. Some of the Jews reject Jesus. Some of the Jews accept Jesus. You say that Jews completely reject Jesus, but you say that by "Jews" you only mean those Jews who reject Jesus. Well, now this is an amazing thing! You're telling me that I should only listen to people who reject my position! But this just doesn't make sense. Tons of Jews come to Jesus because of OT prophecies. When they come to Jesus, according to you they're no longer Jews. So you can then say that all Jews reject Jesus, as if this means something. Imagine the following exchange:

SKEPTIC: "You should become an atheist, because all rational people reject the existence of God."

THEIST: "Well, many extremely intelligent people have believed in God."

SKEPTIC: "But as soon as they become theists, they're no longer rational. Hence, all rational people are atheists."

This reasoning is absurd isn't it? And yet you're forced to make such ridiculous claims in order to attack Christianity and defend your own religion. Sad, sad, sad.

Sami Zaatari said...

lol David the fact remains, your Gospels tried to prove Jesus by FIRST MENTIONING THE OT, you cant escape that fact, and according to you that is nonsense and circular. case closed my friend, you know, and i know it.

Sami Zaatari said...

and it seems you completly misunderstood my point on the Jews. i never said that just because most of them reject Jesus it means we should, i mean you made that up and basically attacked a straw man.

i brought the Jews up because they would disagree on you using their OT to back your Christian beliefs up!!!!!!! that was my entire point, that the Jews would have something to say about that, and that you should go debate the Jews!

David Wood said...

Sami,

You've completely misinterpreted and misrepresented the New Testament position, despite the fact that I have repeatedly corrected you on it. Yes, the New Testament appeals to prophecies, but as I've said, that's quite different from saying, "We know that Christianity is true because it matches up perfectly with the teachings of the Old Testament." Again, the New Testament writers understood that they were preaching the New Covenant, which was quite different from the Old Covenant.

Now is that what you're saying about Islam? Are you simply saying that there are OT prophecies about Muhammad? No, you're saying that Muhammad's message lines up perfectly with the message of the prophets before him. The problem is that his message DOESN'T line up with that of the prophets before him. Hence, your argument fails miserably. "Case closed," as you like to put it.

You say the point of bringing up the Jews (i.e. only the ones who reject Jesus) is that they would disagree with me. Grand. So would atheists. So would Hindus. So would agnostics. So would Taoists. So would Buddhists. Go debate a Buddhist, Sami, since they disagree with you.

Bfoali said...

Ok, I dont care who started this, daivd or sami, but I am going to finish it. Lets let the debate speak for itself. I suggest david that you repost the debate for further veiwing so we can all see for ourselves. I agree mabey it wasnt the best idea for sami to look at the bible to support the prophet muhammads (pbuh)s title as a prophet of god. Thought if one is too look at the debate, Sami crushed all of your lies against the prophet muhamamd (pbuh). I suggest we leave this debate to speak for its self, and we dont resort to wall posting. THERE ARE 23 sheesh.
Peace

Bfoali said...

btw I am sorry for any spelling mistakes, or error of grammar in my post above, I alwayas forget to read over.

I am pretty sure you can come to a conclusion as to what I mean with some of the sentences.

David Wood said...

Sami crushed my lies? If I recall correctly, he agreed with most of what I said. That is, I would say, "Muhammad delivered revelations from the devil," and Sami would say, "Yes, but it was okay, because Gabriel cleaned up the mess later." Or I would say, "Muhammad was the victim of black magic," and Sami would say, "Yes, but it was okay, because Muhammad was all right later." And I would say, "Muhammad had far more wives than he allowed other Muslims to have." And Sami would say, "Yes, but he needed to form some alliances, you know." So it seems that Sami and I were in agreement on most of the facts (which you just called "lies"). The only thing we disagree on is the interpretation of the facts. Whatever Muhammad does, Sami lets him slide. I'm a bit more objective than that. But regardless of our disagreements, the people at that debate walked away knowing a lot of details about Muhammad that they didn't know before. And like it or not, non-Muslims just aren't going to be impressed by "So what if our prophet delivered revelations from Satan? It doesn't bother us."

El-Cid said...

Sami:

Your claim that "no Jew" believes in the Trinity or the New Testament is fallacious.

There is an entire movement of Jews who believe both of the above (they are called Messianic Jews). A number of Messianic Jews live in Israel, and accept Yeshua Ha'Mashiach as Lord & Savior.

In regards to your challenge that David debate a Jew on the Old Testament, I suggest YOU adhere to your own admonition BEFORE you lecture others on it.

I would LOVE to watch you debate an apologists from any sect of Judaism on your premise that Muhammad confirmed the message of the Tanakh. It would be amusing to watch your assumptions about the Jewish attitude toward Muhammad, Allah, and Islam disintegrate right before your very eyes.

You also draw a completely false parallel between the Christian attitude toward the Tanakh, and the Muslim attitude, in that Christians don't run around saying it is CORRUPTED (they accept it as inspired), and they actually make an honest attempt to exegete the Scriptures. How you fail to grasp this distinction is beyond rational means.

Until YOU start debating Jews on the "Old Testament" it is impossible to take your attempted criticism of David on this issue seriously (as it is what is known as 'hypocrisy').

David Wood said...

If I recall correctly, I think Sami did debate a Jew once.

I have no objection to debating a Jew, but since Jews aren't calling for the destruction of the West, I'm more inclined to debate representatives of religions that pose a more immediate threat.

I think Sami would like it if Christians and Jews started debating more, since this would draw attention away from Muhammad.

Bfoali said...

David Wood, I have to thank you, for correcting me.

I should of used better words to desribe the debate. You would cherry pick parts of the stories that supported your veiw, and sami just reminded you of the parts that debunk them.
So I thank you for the correction.
I also want to say david, that I hope you dont change, you are an exremley kind guy, and I think if religious debates continue, we need men like you who show respect, to other beliefs to people.
Peace

Bfoali said...

David Wood, I have to thank you, for correcting me.

I should of used better words to desribe the debate. You would cherry pick from the hadiths, which at face value look terrible towards the prophet, but then sami would just remind them that theres more then meets the eye.

I also want to say david,I think that you are an extemley kind guy and I hope you dont change,I think if religious debates continue, we need men like you who show respect to the belifs of others.
P.S. I think you should repost the debates on your blog, (again its your choice) to give it more of a chnce to speak for itself, because I believe that if people see the debate, they would have to give it as a victory to the man wearing the tight black shirt (sami)

Peace

Bfoali said...

David Wood, I have to thank you, for correcting me.

I should of used better words to desribe the debate. You would cherry pick from the hadiths, which at face value look terrible towards the prophet, but then sami would just remind them that theres more then meets the eye.

I also want to say david,I think that you are an extemley kind guy and I hope you dont change,I think if religious debates continue, we need men like you who show respect to the belifs of others.
P.S. I think you should repost the debates on your blog, (again its your choice) to give it more of a chnce to speak for itself, because I believe that if people see the debate, they would have to give it as a victory to the man wearing the tight black shirt (sami)

Peace

David Wood said...

Repost the debates? They're just a click away on the bar on the left (under "Debates").

El-Cid said...

David:

I was not aware that Sami had debated any Jewish apologists. In fairness, I probably should have qualified my statement in an if/then form, or made sure my facts on his debate history were a little better.

Oops :P. Thanks for clarifying. I thought he did well in his debate with you in terms of how he presented his argumentation and refutations. I must say, I am a little disapointed in his "go debate some Jews" statements in the comments. I suspect you may be correct in your reasoning for why.

Nakdimon said...

and David and any other Christian, why dont you ever debate Jews on the OT? because you know they will have a field day with each one of you. you are all scared to debate any rabbi on whether the OT supports Christianity.

Sami,

I, as a Jew, have debated orthodox Jews for years now. To say that “we are afraid” is bogus. I have a rebuttal on my website on the “let’s get biblical” series of rabbi Tovia Singer, who is considered the leading anti-missionary rabbi. I’m still working on the articles. The next that will be up there is a rebuttal on his Trinity lecture. You can find it here:

http://www.geocities.com/nakdimonspage/index.html

I have been debating the folks on the Messiah Truth anti-missionary website for years and got banned twice because I caught them blatantly lying about the application of the Hebrew text. Their excuse, of course, has been that I was disrespectful. Which is an untenable position.

I am also engaged in debates on the CARM forum in the Judaism section. I have had a very lengthy debate with Chaim ben Yaakov, who is a moderator on the Messiah Truth website on Isaiah 53. He didn’t even stand a chance, because I know what the Rabbis of Old had to say about it. They almost collectively applied this to the Messiah.

I have studied rabbinic Judaism and have found lots of arguments they use lacking to say the least. I know their arguments form the inside out and can point to you where even their own traditions contradict the Tenach, the Old Testament. I know their arguments based on the Hebrew Bible and on the Talmudic teachings. Fact is that the New Testament lines up with the Old Testament. No Orthodox Jew, for years now, had been able to show me otherwise.

I advice you to read the series “Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus”, a 4 volume series of dr Michael L. Brown, a Messianic Jew, who is known for frequently debating orthodox rabbis. He is working on his fifth and final volume, objections based on the rabbinic tradition.

Believe me, we have NOTHING to fear from rabbis. They, just like Muslims, although less blatantly, re-interpret their own Talmudic sources when they support the Messianic readings of Old Testament verses. We read them as being Messianic, they object that they aren’t, and when we show them from the Talmud that their rabbis also interpret them to be Messianic, they come up with all sorts of excuses. Yes, they sometimes change the words from the their right context, as the Qur’an says, but the Qur’an is hypocritical. Muslims do exactly that what the Qur’an condemns in others; Muslims will not only change the words from their right context, they will dismiss their sources entirely with no remourse if they have to.

Nakdimon

Sami Zaatari said...

contrary to David's rubbish claims of ohhhhh i want Christians to debate Jews to get attention of Muhammad! this is garbage! common David i expect better from you! not this Islamophobic paranoid type of thinking!

i want to see Christians as yourselves debating Jews because it would be very interesting and the fact is is that you have to present your arguments to them because your using their book! this is a simple fact, but you know you cant debate them so you say ah Sami wants us to debate them to get the attention of Muhammad! The Jews themselves want to debate you missionaries!

what utter nonsense man! if i wanted the attention of my prophet do you think i would have a 2 hour debate on that topic?!!!!!!!!!!! i wouldve simply never done it! if i didnt want attention on my prophet would i have another 2 hour debate with an Arab Christian on this same topic???

David i DONT WANT the attention off Islam and Muhammad, i love it! Islam is getting so much coverage and attention that its amazing, what you have done in terms of giving Islam world attention is far more than any Muslim dawah efforts could! now you think that all this attention you give will have a negative effect, but quite the contrary its having a very good effect because many become interested in Islam and become Muslims! and this is a simple fact.

so by allllllllll means do not take the attention of Islam, because i am very happy Islam gets more attention than Christianity, Christianity has been marginilized in large thanks to Christian apologists as yourself.

Sami Zaatari said...

oh yes and btw folks i want attention of Muhammad so badly that i am even going to be writing a book about him and the main negatives that are thrown against him! yesssss i sure want that attention off him dont i!?

and oh yes and even worst i am going to be having several future debates and many of those topics will be on the prophet Muhammad, yes thats how BAD i want to take the attention of him that many of my future debates will be centred on him! shame on meeeeeeeeeee

BlackBaron said...

David (pb&j),

Great debate. Your ministry is a great help to the Body of Christ.

Thanks.

Keith Thompson said...

David,

I can back up every claim in my film. The fact that you dismiss my information and me without proper research doesn't say anything about me, it says something about you brother.

I am a Christian. I love Jesus Christ and I feel that the information I have attained needs to be shown to the public. Hundreds of Christians have emailed me saying they have woken up to the corruption I speak of.

In my debate with the Freemason and historian Rich Rodriguez, he not only admitted that the Illuminati infiltrated freemasonry in Europe but he couldn't refute any of my arguments about political corruption.

I am willing to have a one on one talk with you to explain why I believe what I do. But please don't let your presuppositions shape your judgment towards me. Read the book of revelation.

God Bless.