Friday, May 23, 2008

Dispatches: Undercover Mosque

This episode of "Dispatches" won't surprise anyone who actually studies Islam, but it should be quite shocking to Westerners who still think that Islam isn't a threat.

58 comments:

Yahya Hayder Seymour said...

Hmm, I honestly am a trifle surprised by the content on this Website, I thought David Wood and Nabeel Qureshi were into Academic Polemics as opposed to Neo-Con Scare-Mongering tactics. Despite my obvious qualms and disputes with the Salafi Movement, and their rampant intolerance of opposing opinions.... No one who has studied the movement seriously actually takes this documentary seriously!

In fact, Channel 4 were on the brink of being sued for Slander due to the fact they misquoted and took things out of context especially the statements of Abu Usama adh-Dhahabi and the Televangelist Khalid Yassin.

Is this all the intellectual Christian/Muslim Discourse and Debate can offer from this website? If so I recommend you actually do some academic Islamic Studies, this is actually something which not even my good friend Jay Smith would resort to (and he's actually the Polemicist who uses the cheapest blows that I can think of). Maybe you guys should just close this site down, I mean Robert Spencer has already got the scare-tactics side of things covered.

David Wood said...

Yahya,

Whether you like it or not, Muslims are preaching the overthrow of the West. As this documentary shows, Muslims are preaching a message of violence, deception, and intolerance, not only in places like Saudi Arabia, but right here in the West. While Nabeel and I are certainly focused on academic apologetics (as you will see in the weeks to come), we also recognize that it is important for Westerners to understand what we're up against. If you don't like the message being preached on these videos, I suggest you take it up with your fellow Muslims, instead of railing against programs that expose them.

David Wood said...

Yahya,

I noticed that your profile says that you are open to debate. Do you mean written debate in blogs only, or are you open to public debate as well?

Yahya Hayder Seymour said...

Hi David,

In regards to your question about Public Debate, I am open to it and have indeed participated in a couple (mostly here in London, but also in Scotland). I frequent Hyde Park Speaker's Corner which lacks any form of academic discourse (well 99% of the time) and have debated most of Jay Smith's Hyde Park Fellowship there, and have even engaged in a few one to one discussions with Jay Smith himself. Though I much prefer written discourse as this has been my primary concern since first getting into Apologetics whilst studying Divinity at Aberdeen University.

As for your reply to my comments, you have failed to respond to the fact that Channel 4 (The British Channel which actually broadcast this documentary over a year ago on their Dispatches series) have actually been subject to an investigation case of Slander which remains largely unresolved.

I have no qualms with acknowledging the lack of tolerance and a message of violence taught within the Muslim World, I think the documentary actually attacked a movement which itself is Khariji in nature and therefore encourages more violence against fellow Muslims than it does against the West. This is due to the Madkhali Salafi Movement's attachment to the Saudi Government which has been subject to a deadly alliance with Western Democratic Governments who turn a blind eye to it's persecution and oppression of Muslims.

David Wood said...

Yahya,

The charges against the documentary have been investigated. You can read some of the results here:

Police Apologize

As you know, most of the material in the program was quite clear (no way to misrepresent it).

As for debate, do you ever plan to visit the U.S.? If so, I can arrange something. If not, I've been thinking about doing a debate via Google Video. (The first debater would post an opening statement, then the second debater would have a few days to post an opening statement, and so on.) How far are you along in your schooling?

Yahya Hayder Seymour said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
David Wood said...

Yahya,

As you requested, I will erase your comment as soon as I post this one. I like the topics you're interested in, with the small exception that we can't call Muhammad a prophet in a debate that's meant to establish whether he's a prophet. Thus, instead of "Was the Prophet Muhammad a Prophet of God?" we could debate "Was Muhammad a Prophet of God?" To balance this debate, we can also do one on the Deity of Christ. Since you'll be ready after August, we could figure out the format in the meantime, and I could do an opening statement in August. We'll work everything out via email.

Bassam said...

Hi, my name is David and I am a debataholic!

David Wood said...

It is addictive.

Sami Zaatari said...

Howdy David, your being quite inconsistent here.

for starters it was Muslims who exposed these things, not westerners, Muslims did the under-cover watching, and were the ones who have been warning about this.

on top of this even Salafi preachers came out condemning this saying they have been warning about such extremists for a long time, you can go hear the audio recording on www.salafipublications.com

hence your being quite inconsistent when you say Islam is a threat when infact Muslims are trying to stop such things.

secondly, i would much rather have preachers preaching something bad and extreme than people actually commiting it, dont you agree?

and right now USA and western nations occupy not one, not 2, but THREE Muslim countries, your countries have come in by force to force your way of life. so really who is the threat? show me a single Muslim army in your lands with guns forcing Islam upon you, there are none, yet right a few miles away from UAE where i will tommorow morning your fellow Christians are destroying Iraq, and a little further in Afghanistan the same thing!

so who should we be worried off? Christian neocon extremists such as Bush who makes a war every few years, and plans more. or a few preachers who dont have much standing in the Islamic community?

we both know the answer, your just trying to blow things out of prortion with Muslims and Islam when the real danger and threat is your fellow American hawkish zionist Christians.

one final point, in the last century western society has left more than 100 million dead, used atomic bombs, continue to make nuclear weapons to this day, and threaten to use them!

so really David, who is the threat?

Muslims dont have the weapons to obliterate the earth in 1 hour, you peace loving Christians do, why is that David? and pls dont say oh these are bad Christians not in accordance with the Bible, that shows how inconsistent you are since when we say that with Muslims you say no no no Islam condones it.

and sorry one final point, what good is christianity then David if your fellow Christians make all these weapons and wars, it seems your Bible and doctrine isnt working properly and serves no purpose other than a feel good factor.

either way, when we debate in Septmber we will get to examine which indeed is the religion of peace, and the religion of violence.

Sami Zaatari said...

David, Jesus taught you to clean your own act before going to others, why dont you speak against ann coulter, john hagae, and the many many many more Christians who preach extremism and violence? i will be updating my zionist-crusade watch blog again, and i will post one christian who said wipe 100 million Muslims out. :)

common man where is the consistency my friend, you cant even properly follow what Jesus taught you, and this is why Christianity is dying Dave, whether you admit it or not, you concentrate so much on others you dont realize your own house is falling apart and needs some refurbishing.

David Wood said...

Well, when Christian preachers start calling for the death of non-Christians and for the overthrow of the entire world, I'll be sure to say something. But the Christian preachers I know preach love and tolerance. (If you know of some who preach otherwise, you won't see me complain if you expose them.)

As things stand, it's Muslim preachers (following the example of Muhammad) who are calling for the subjugation or death of non-Muslims. And keep in mind what you're objecting to. All I've done is post a documentary (reporting the truth) on my website, and you freak out. Why would you object when I've said nothing but the truth?

Also keep in mind an important fact. The Muslim preachers in this documentary are acting in the name of Islam. You can object to Western military superiority, but no leaders in the West are saying, "Hey, let's go conquer the Muslim infidels in the name of Jesus." That's a big difference, Sami. You're comparing Muslim preachers following the teachings of Muhammad with secular political leaders. Apples and oranges, man.

Yahya Hayder Seymour said...

David,

Again you are comitting a Straw-man! If I believed these Muslims were following the example of Muhammad (May peace and blessings be upon him) then I would not be condemning them.

"I knew my God was bigger than his. I knew that my God was a real God and his was an idol." -U.S Military General Boykin.
^
Doesn't sound to Secular to me!!! Nor do President George W. Bush's statements on his Inspiration by God.

In regards to this Documentary reporting Truth, this is something which all experts in Islamic Studies would quite frankly disagree with, even a Scholar like Esposito or even Steven Schwartz (the anti-Salafi) would not make such a serious blunder as to associate the Neo-Salafi (Madkhali) School of Saudi Arabia, with the Violent propagation taught by the Jihadi-Ikwani camp.

Perhaps we Muslims should post up videos of Christians at Abortion Clinics employing acts of Militant Radicalism, and upload it on our websites promoting it as mainstream Christian teaching. Then again, perhaps we should just continue to be sincere and argue with integrity, unlike our Christian friends.

History is full of people acting in the name of things wrongly, the Conquest of the Philippines was done bloodily in the name of Christian Expansion, the Crusades were waged in the name of Christianity, does that make violent expansion an integral component of Christianity? I think not!

As for you saying nothing but the truth David, please take a reality check, lets analyse this so called truth and I shall point out any discrepancies:

"Whether you like it or not, Muslims are preaching the overthrow of the West. As this documentary shows, Muslims are preaching a message of violence, deception, and intolerance, not only in places like Saudi Arabia, but right here in the West."

This is blatant hard generalization language. I can readily present hundreds of Muslims I personally know who have never preached overthrowing "of the West" and who have never preached any message of "violence, deception, and intolerance" etc. Thus your generalisation is therefore uncalled for and shows a complete disregard for the truth.

For someone who claims to be interested in an academic study of religion, notice the shocking lack of nuance.

Yes, there are Muslims who have engaged in the above, but there are also Muslims - probably many many many more - who have not engaged in the above type of conversation and who are opposed to such thoughts and ideas.

You blatantly generalise an entire community and show no regard for nuance or realism.

Sorry for the rant, yet I feel it is one which you deserved!

David Wood said...

Yahya,

Are you saying that the people in these videos aren't Muslims? When I say "Muslims are preaching . . .," I didn't say "All Muslims are preaching . . ." So you're falsely accusing me of generalizing this to all Muslims. The people in these videos are Muslims. Hence, Muslims are preaching these things. If you think that they are infidels, please explain why.

If you read my writings, you will see that I have said repeatedly that most Muslims aren't going to hurt anyone. Yet it is a startling fact that wherever Islam goes, there is always a significant minority preaching violence. Why is this so? Because there is always a significant minority who follow the example set by Muhammad.

Yes, you can point to individual Christians who believe that God is on their side in a war. The point is that there is no unified body of Christians trying to take over the world. Why? Because it's not part of our religion. But there are many unified groups of Muslims trying to take over the world. Why? Because it's part of your religion. The fact that you don't see this only shows that you have been influenced by your Western upbringing. You're viewing Muhammad through your Western bias. What do you do when you read about Muhammad torturing people for money, or having his opponents assassinated, or executing people for insulting him? Do you just throw out your sources, like other Western Muslims do? Do you accuse the earliest Muslims of fabricating countless false stories about Muhammad? If so, how can we trust anything they say?

Let me ask a quick question. Take Salman Rushdie. He wrote a book that was highly offensive towards Muslims. Do you agree with the plot to assassinated him? If not, why not? (Sami, the Muslim who commented here recently, holds that criticizing Muhammad is equal to criticizing God, and that anyone who criticizes Muhammad should be killed. Do you agree or disagree?)

P.S. What "Christians" are you referring to when you say that they attack abortion clinics? Give me some names, please.

Sami Zaatari said...

David now your just being really inconsistent! the preachers YOU KNOW? david are you saying the preachers i know preach violence and terrorism? hmmm

secondly David, your wrong again, Bush quoted the Bible when he started this false crusade of his, he even called it a crusade and quoted from the gospel of John!

and again you ignore what i said, i said EVEN IF they arent christians or whatever, the fact is they are the REAL threat as they are invading right now, and they are the ones who have killed 100 million, you have adressed none of these facts, because you know its true, and you know these facts get rid of this nonsense that ohhh Islam is the big threat!

i reapeat again, ur supposed lovely civilized and peaceful nations have the weapons to kill us all in an hour, and have killed 100 million, and right now are FORCEFULLY occupying Muslim lands! then u say Muslims are the threat? lol common my friend, get real.

and lastly i dont care about the documentary, rather i am adressing your false claim that Islam is the threat when im sorry friend, the threat is your own christian leaders, and thats the fact. bush recently called jews the CHOSEN ppl, get real dude thats not getting it from the Bible?! okay if you say so.

Bassam said...

David,

Dr. William Lane Craig and Professor Kenneth Richard Samples support the state of Israel. Certainly, you know these people.

Evangelical Christian support (religiously motivated) for Zionism exposed...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wiDcr-Lw4U

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCAYV4l2Ct0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWIa2wcnmqY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exdsB5D1r7Y

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4IgVcSMBoRw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4IgVcSMBoRw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hp0TO4aM3fs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9P_W6fxnJhk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58SsQyaX5Is

Yahya Hayder Seymour said...

David, never you mind my Methodology for accepting and rejecting sources regarding Muhammad for it shall become perfectly clear (God Willing) in our debate, exactly what my methodology is......and it is far from being the methodology of viewing Muhammad from Western Eyes. I believe I could very well demonstrate that I have read more of the earlier source material on Muhammad (SAW) than you have, so it is not merely a case of being unfamiliar with it. I just happen to reject it for reasons that shall be apparent in the Debate.

As for the Rushdie Question, No I do not agree with the fatwa to take out Rushdie (or anyone who slanders the Prophet Muhammad) and this is because Justice has not been established on Earth yet.

As for Christians who have done this, Army of God is one name, for more please read: http://www.commonplacebook.com/current_events/politics/christian_terro.shtm

Yahya Hayder Seymour said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Yahya Hayder Seymour said...

David as for the people in the Video being non-Muslim lol, you actually don't want to know my opinion on such people, it depends on how extreme their opinions are.

David Wood said...

Sami,

Quoting a verse is far from acting in the name of Jesus. Bush all along declared that he was fighting for the safety of U.S. Christians, and Muslims, and Jews, and atheists, etc., by fighting those who pose a threat. Whether you or I agree with him is beside the point. It is clear that this was not a Christian attack against non-Christians.

Yet Muslim attacks against non-Muslims, in the name of Allah, occur on a daily basis (as anyone can see from the list on thereligionofpeace.com).

You criticize the West for having superior firepower. So we're wrong because our science far exceeds anything in the Muslim world? Muslims are trying desperately to build such weapons. You should at least credit the West with the restraint not to use these weapons (some Muslim leaders who have these weapons have shown restraint as well). But do you think Muslims in Iran or Iraq would exercise such restraint if they had some nukes? I don't.

Note that I never called Western nations peaceful or loving (although I think that nearly any Western nation is far more peaceful and loving than nearly any Muslim nation). We're talking about Christianity vs. Islam, not Islam vs. Western secular governments.

You say that Islam isn't a threat and that people like Bush are the threat. Did you watch the videos? These are people who want to destroy the West and to eliminate all non-Muslims. The West doesn't want to eliminate all non-Westerners. In case you haven't noticed, you're free to walk down the streets proclaiming your beliefs at the top of your voice when you're here. You were free to stand on stage at a major university and say that anyone who criticizes Muhammad should be killed. Would I have this sort of freedom in Saudi Arabia or the UAE? Of course not. I'd be killed quite quickly. So how is a religion/culture that will kill me if it ever takes control not a threat to me?

Bassam,

I like Israel too. The world would be a better place if everyone loved the Jews.

Yahya,

If you think it's wrong to kill people who criticize Muhammad, you're going to face some issues with your early sources. But we can put this off until our debate. I'm looking forward to assessing your methodology.

The "Army of God" is a cult.

I would indeed be interested in where you draw the line between true Muslims and false Muslims.

Sami Zaatari said...

David, im sorry but your being dishonest now, never in my debate did i say that those who critisize the prophet Muhammad should be killed, so plz dont put words in my mouth.

Secondly, i am in UAE right now, this country is far far far far more peaceful and open than ANY western and christian nation.

Thirdly, the UAE will not kill you, they will just deport you, and i would agree with it, this country is partially Islamic hence no one has the right to attack Islam.

Does that make western nations better? no, it makes your nations stupid, christianity is DEAD in the west because you christians let atheists mock and walk all over your faith, we Muslims have honour, respect, and dignity for our religion, so this shows were the smarter ones.

then you become so inconsistent again, you say your sciences are far more advanced, then why use these sciences for the bad of humanity!!!!!!!!! geez man!

and then your last comment shows your double standars, you like israel? the country that has left more than 200 palestinian children dead alone this year? the country who kicked people out of their homes by force? then you want to talk about who is peaceful and who isnt? maybe you do, since thats biblical!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

David your seriously a great example of christian double standards, you say Islam is violent, but when Bible says kill kill kill you say ohhhhhhhhhh BUT

you say Islam is violent and there are bad preachers, while Israel kills thousands of innocent civillians including children, then you say you like israel! offcourse you will now make excuses for israel, which again highlights your inconsistency, plus your major typical christian fundamentalist double standards.

again in the christianity is peace debate everyone will see how violent your religion truly is, and how inconsistent you Christian preachers truly are, you even deep down know it Dave.

as for loving Jews, Dave it has always been Christian movements who were on crusades to wipe the Jews out, as ann coulter said, they need to be 'perfected'

Sami Zaatari said...

oh and as for the religiofpeace.com, lol David are you kidding? i challenge you to bring me the links of each one of these attacks, OH WAIT, there are none!!!!!!!! there is NO verifiable proof for 95% of their claims, and thats your reference? again so much inconsistency plus now your throwing academic standards out the window. again as i say, missionaries as yourself, have one motto "by any means possible" i dont mean to sound offensive, but thats the truth, you know it, i know it. you have contradicted yourself a few times in your comments alone.

Yahya Hayder Seymour said...

David,
You Said:
"Yahya,
If you think it's wrong to kill people who criticize Muhammad, you're going to face some issues with your early sources. But we can put this off until our debate. I'm looking forward to assessing your methodology."


Good, look forward to it all you want, as for some issues with my early sources. Do you know what my sources are? Can I ask which early sources with the exception of Guillame's lame translation of Ibn Hisham's Recension of Ishaq do you actually have access to?

The "Army of God" is a cult.

.....So are the Wahabis/Madkhali Salafis

I would indeed be interested in where you draw the line between true Muslims and false Muslims.

I draw the line between those whom the Prophet defined as non-Muslim according to the sources I accept.

Sunil said...

Yahya

>> History is full of people acting in the name of things wrongly...the Crusades were waged in the name of Christianity, does that make violent expansion an integral component of Christianity? I think not!

True that some people acting wrongly in the name of religion, (by itself) does not show that violence is integral part of that religion. But does not automatically rule it out either. One has to look at the theology/history of the founder and his disciples/companions to find if violence/war imposition of religion-based law on conquered nations etc are an integral component or not.

>> I do not agree with the fatwa to take out Rushdie (or anyone who slanders the Prophet Muhammad) and this is because Justice has not been established on Earth yet.

What is your definition of 'justice getting established on earth' and how does that happen or made to happen? Rushdie can be killed once that happens? And what about the goal of conquering and establishing/imposing islamic religious rule of law on the nations and their people?

>> should post up videos of Christians at Abortion Clinics employing acts of Militant Radicalism

Even in this extremity of cultic unchrist-like fringe group, they are still targetting only specific targets. Not trying to militaily takeover the world and impose/establish religion etc. And in this pursuit which they think is mandated by Muhammad, they are willing to attack/target anyone anywhere and seeking to acquire more and more powerful weapons. You want to suggest that talking about it is mere "scare-tactics"? Where do we see hard-hitting refutation on theological/historical grounds? (and not merely surface level politically correct 'condemnation'). You are instead more concerned that David has generalized them as "muslims" (which btw, you have also done when you say "Christians at Abortion Clinics").

>> for the people in the Video being non-Muslim lol, you actually don't want to know my opinion on such people

Why dont you spell it out your opinion on them and comprehensively refute them on theological/historical grounds? (and not merely 'condemning' or by cherry picking a few peaceful verses here and there from pre-hijrah etc)

Sunil said...

Sami zaatari,

>> and right now USA and western nations occupy not one, not 2, but THREE Muslim countries

The "USA and western nations" are secular nations and they are acting on behalf of protection of their citizens (which includes muslim citizens) which is the nations responsibility and their actions are subject to approval/accountability by representatives of people belonging to all religions/communities. One may argue or disagree about their military/intelligence inputs etc based on which they went to war, but one cannot deny that a nation has a need/right to protect its citizens and in an unfortunate extreme, can use police, military etc for the purpose. You cannot compare this with a goal of worldwide conquest with the purpose to establish/impose rule of religion or attacking or bombing anytime/anyone/anywhere etc.

>> Muslims dont have the weapons to obliterate the earth in 1 hour

What would the extremists have done if they had it already? Are you saying that a nation should not have weapons?

>> Bush quoted the Bible when he started this false crusade of his, he even called it a crusade and quoted from the gospel of John!

It will be interesting to know what he quoted. Does the text ask to go to war on nations and unbelievers to establish religion or kill unless/until they accept prophethood of a person etc?

>> EVEN IF they arent christians or whatever, the fact is they are the REAL threat as they are invading right now

Are you saying that any war any time for any purpose is wrong (total pacifist position)? Or are you saying that the specific wars that are going on are wrong?

>> the UAE will not kill you, they will just deport you, and i would agree with it, this country is partially Islamic hence no one has the right to attack Islam .. it makes your nations stupid, christianity is DEAD in the west because you christians let atheists mock and walk all over your faith

So are you suggesting that the atheists, muslims etc (muslims do it more than atheists) who criticize/mock christian faith should be deported?

>> when Bible says kill kill kill you say ohhhhhhhhhh BUT

There can be a specific act of judgement of God on a group (like Sodom/Gomorrah, Cananites etc where God even explains most of the time why he is judging those people) and the general prescritive commandments of God clarify how we as humans behave with others, what constitutes the greatest commandment from God etc - that is different from war/killing/conquest on nations/people to establish religious rule. That is why it is more diffcult to debate islamic extremists (they are on a strong theological/historical ground) while it is impossible to find a single christian who thinks that we have to re-enact a Sodom/Gomorrah or a cananite war.

Yahya Hayder Seymour said...

Sunil,

You said:
"History is full of people acting in the name of things wrongly...the Crusades were waged in the name of Christianity, does that make violent expansion an integral component of Christianity? I think not!"

I have found from personal experience that most devout Christians I know are not peace-loving but wish to force the world to come under their beliefs, this is not surprising for when you believe that all your sins are forgiven, you're not going to be too bothered by which means are utilised in Mission (i.e Producing Rice Christians, Sending Missionaries with the U.S Army).

True that some people acting wrongly in the name of religion, (by itself) does not show that violence is integral part of that religion. But does not automatically rule it out either. One has to look at the theology/history of the founder and his disciples/companions to find if violence/war imposition of religion-based law on conquered nations etc are an integral component or not.

What is your definition of 'justice getting established on earth' and how does that happen or made to happen? Rushdie can be killed once that happens? And what about the goal of conquering and establishing/imposing islamic religious rule of law on the nations and their people?

In order to know my definition of this, please read some Muslim beliefs surrounding the Eschatological Period. Yes he could be killed after this. Yes that will happen too, just as according to your belief every knee will bow with the return of your notion of Jesus.

You want to suggest that talking about it is mere "scare-tactics"? Where do we see hard-hitting refutation on theological/historical grounds? (and not merely surface level politically correct 'condemnation').

Erm try reading a bit more from Mainstream Muslim publishers, or some Muslim Academics in the West, or on second thoughts try reading stuff on Islam that doesn't come from Robert Spencer or Former-Qadianis pretending to be Ex-Muslims.


You are instead more concerned that David has generalized them as "muslims" (which btw, you have also done when you say "Christians at Abortion Clinics").

Yeah, I like to answer people in a way they can understand and one which is on their own level of communication and etiquette.

Why dont you spell it out your opinion on them and comprehensively refute them on theological/historical grounds? (and not merely 'condemning' or by cherry picking a few peaceful verses here and there from pre-hijrah etc)

Since you know nothing about me, I will allow this comment to slip as an ignorant misunderstanding on your behalf. I have engaged in numerous debates with the Salafi-Cult, and do not condemn using the Methodology which you hinted at in brackets. You know nothing about me, and I have no idea why you have decided to try and act as if you do.

Sunil said...

Yahya,

>> this is not surprising for when you believe that all your sins are forgiven, you're not going to be too bothered by which means are utilised in Mission

Sins are forgiven through repentance and God's forgiveness/redemption and the promise of 'regeneration of heart' with fruits of Joy, Peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control etc. The moral standard of NT/Jesus (the extent of love to love to be shown etc) is much higher than the OT as more light is revealed. For a follower of Jesus, not only are sins forgiven, she/he also knows that forgiveness is not cheap and the price paid for redemption is a chilling reminder of the seriousness of sin/violation. So, whether in mission or any other field of work, one has to be a follower of Jesus and his teachings.

>> In order to know my definition of this, please read some Muslim beliefs surrounding the Eschatological Period.

Why do you spell out your definition of 'justice getting established on earth' and how that happens or made to happen?

>> try reading a bit more from Mainstream Muslim publishers, or some Muslim Academics in the West

Well, I want to read/listen to hard hitting rebuttals on theological/historical grounds against the islamic extremists by islamic scholars. If you know any links, please provide.

>> I have engaged in numerous debates with the Salafi-Cult, and do not condemn using the Methodology which you hinted at in brackets.

ok, if you have links to your debates, please provide. What I hinted in the bracket is what one typically hears - look at how Bilal Philips simply dismissed the seriousness of what is seen in the documentary. If you have more to offer as criticism, please provide.

David Wood said...

Sami,

Be careful when you accuse people of being dishonest. Unless my memory is foggy (watching the recording will help resolve this),in our debate, you defended the murders of Asma and Abu Afak by saying that, since they had criticized Muhammad, they deserved to be killed. How were they killed? They were brutally murdered by Muhammad's followers. So it certainly sounds like you're saying that people who criticize Muhammad should be killed. Do you think it's wrong to kill people for criticizing Muhammad? If so, then how do you explain what you said in the debate?

The UAE is peaceful and open? Isn't that the country where women go to prison for being gang-raped?

Are you sure that UAE would simply deport me for criticizing Muhammad? (I'm sure you know better than I do.) If so, perhaps we should have a debate there. We can debate, and then the government can deport me.

As for Israel, I didn't say that I like everything that every Israeli ever does. (I like the United States too, but this doesn't mean that I like everything our government has ever done.) There's no double standard here, Sami. Israel is a great nation. Unfortunately, they're forced to defend themselves from constant attacks by Muslims. Sometimes they go overboard. Bad things happen when people hate each other.

If anyone has double standards, it's you my friend. Why haven't you complained about Israeli children being killed by Muslims? This never seems to cross your mind, even when you're accusing me of double standards!

You challenged me to provide links for each attack listed on thereligionofpeace.com. Isn't that silly? There are thousands of them! Do you really expect me to spend the next eight weeks looking up links? If you like, I could look up one or two of your choosing.

I agree with you on one thing: I look forward to our coming debates. See you soon. I believe that your religion is false, but I respect your willingness to address the tough issues in public debate (something that's all too rare in the West).

David Wood said...

Yahya,

Wahabis/Salafis are a cult???!!! They always seemed to me to be the Muslims who are most like Muhammad's original followers. What percentage of Muslims do you think agree with you on this?

Bassam and Sami, do you agree with Yahya's comment about Wahabis/Salafis?

Yahya Hayder Seymour said...

Bassam seems like a Salafi himself, and therefore would most likely disagree with me by default. I'm not interested in percentage, but All praise is due to God, the world is waking up to the fact that Wahabis are posing a danger to the World.

As for how they have seemed to you David, that is entirely irrelevant to me, as in your opinion:
Nabeel is a former Muslim, whilst no single mainstream Islamic Scholar considers Qadianis to be Muslim.

Also David could you answer my question, with the exception of al-Tabari's history and Guillame's lame translation of Ibn Hisham's recension of Ibn Ishaq, which of the early sources do you actually have access to?

David Wood said...

Yahya,

As far as books go, I have Ibn Ishaq, Ibn Sad, six volumes of al-Tabari, all of Sahih al-Bukhari, Sahih Muslim, Sunan Abu Dawud. I also have the 10-volume translation of the Tafsir of Ibn Kathir. I have access to a few more things online and on CD-Rom, but the sources I've listed are where I get just about all of my historical information.

Yahya Hayder Seymour said...

Ok Excellent,

I was actually asking just to make sure you don't come to the debate empty handed essentially. God Willing if you email me, I'll recommend the books which I generally accept as sound etc, and I'll clarify if the Scholarship I'm using on the Bible is considered sound by you.

Sami Zaatari said...

Sami,

Be careful when you accuse people of being dishonest.

David, I suggest you then don’t make false accusations against me, or I will be forced to call it. So be careful when you want to make MAJOR misquotes of me, since this isn’t a small misquote, a small misquote I don’t mind, but this is a serious one. but since I’m a nice guy and have no beef with you, I’ll take the dishonest comment back, and just say your mistaken and plz take more care.


Unless my memory is foggy (watching the recording will help resolve this),in our debate, you defended the murders of Asma and Abu Afak by saying that, since they had criticized Muhammad, they deserved to be killed. How were they killed?

Yes, your memory is foggy, see, at least admit your unsure, unlike last time you made the statement as if it were final. And no, I didn’t say they died because of criticizing the prophet Muhammad.
As for being brutally killed, irrelevant point simply based on trying to appeal to emotions.

The UAE is peaceful and open? Isn't that the country where women go to prison for being gang-raped?

No it isn’t, but USA is the country where women get raped every 2 mins, and Israel is the country where the president got away with raping 4 women. Someone just got sent to prison for 10 years for rape in the UAE. 


Are you sure that UAE would simply deport me for criticizing Muhammad? (I'm sure you know better than I do.) If so, perhaps we should have a debate there. We can debate, and then the government can deport me.

I think they would. Bassam would know this better, so check with him for more info on it.


As for Israel, I didn't say that I like everything that every Israeli ever does. (I like the United States too, but this doesn't mean that I like everything our government has ever done.) There's no double standard here, Sami. Israel is a great nation. Unfortunately, they're forced to defend themselves from constant attacks by Muslims. Sometimes they go overboard. Bad things happen when people hate each other.

David, Israel does more evil than good, can you say you like satan? Or you like Hitler? Or what’s his name, charles manson? Charles manson and Hitler had several good qualities I am sure, in fact go watch some videos of manson, he sounds smarter than Bush, and is actually a likeable guy! Would it be ok to like him? Offcourse not. Israel has killed far more than manson, and done much worst. 

If anyone has double standards, it's you my friend. Why haven't you complained about Israeli children being killed by Muslims? This never seems to cross your mind, even when you're accusing me of double standards!

When you complain, I will complain, but how can you complain when its your money and moral support that allows Israel such actions? REAL complaints would be a stop in sending Israel the money, and weapons, and moral backing to do their crimes. Hence a verbal disagreement by you is really USELESS in reality, means nothing. See David, unlike you, my money doesn’t go to Hamas, or Hezbollah, or any group, your money GOES to Israel, and you don’t have a problem with it, big difference, see? I think you do.
And also, as for Israeli babies, they will be in heaven, Muslim babies? Well according to some Christians they’re in hell!


You challenged me to provide links for each attack listed on thereligionofpeace.com. Isn't that silly? There are thousands of them! Do you really expect me to spend the next eight weeks looking up links? If you like, I could look up one or two of your choosing.

No, it isn’t silly, because how can you be sure that Muslims actually did each attack? Get real man, seriously! This isn’t ACCEPTABLE UNDER ANY SYSTEM dude! You need something called PROOF, real proof. Also how do you know they happened?


I agree with you on one thing: I look forward to our coming debates. See you soon. I believe that your religion is false, but I respect your willingness to address the tough issues in public debate (something that's all too rare in the West).

I also look forward to our debates, since I know they will be respectful and helpful for everyone, like our last 2 debates. Just like you I also believe your faith and books are false, in fact I don’t believe its false, I know its false. but I respect you standing up, since you’re the first Christian who has agreed to debate the topic were going to do in September

Bassam said...

David seems to forget that Muslim terror is being provoked by the terror that the United States of America and Israel have imposed upon them. Why don’t we hear about Muslims attacking South America (Christian countries where there is democracy)? Why is it America and Israel? How many Muslims have condemned the September 11 attacks and how many evangelical born again Christians have condemned America’s foreign policy regarding its support to Israel?

When did Hamas, Hizbollah, Black September, Al Qaeda, etc. form? Was it before Israel’s invasion of Palestine in 1948 or AFTER? Why did these groups form? What provoked them?

How absurd it is for these Westerners to keep asking us to condemn Muslim terrorist attacks (which we do) when they don’t bother to recognize that they are the cause of it since they support terror against Muslims.

An analogy might help to illustrate what I am trying to say here.

Let David represent Israel and Bassam represent Palestine…


- David punches Bassam first in the face and steals a thousand dollars from him.

- Bassam punches David back even though he is weaker than him.

- David gets more irritated and beats Bassam up more severely and blames Bassam for fighting back.

- Bassam complains about this injustice.

- Thus, David has decided to be “kind” to Bassam and decides to give back a hundred from the thousand dollars that he stole from him.

- Bassam insists that the full amount should be paid back.

- David refuses and says that he needs that money to survive and since he is stronger he has the right to keep the money.


Can you guys see the analogy and realize how ridiculous it is to support Israel?

Oh yeah I forgot, Christianity provides a justification for this Israeli terror and oppression. What a beautiful religion it is, eh?

David Wood said...

Yahya,

I see you follow the Shia path:

Yahya and Shia Islam

That explains your questions about my sources, as well as your views about Wahabis. I've never debated a Shia Muslim, so I look forward to seeing what differences there are in your approach to debate.

Yahya Hayder Seymour said...

David,

I'm surprised you hadn't realised earlier, my profile says it all really.

David Wood said...

Sami,

I still can't understand how you're going to get out of what you said. In our debate, you brought up Asma and Abu Afak (I didn't). They wrote poems criticizing Muhammad. They were brutally murdered by Muslims for it. You said that the murder of Asma and Abu Afak was justified, since criticizing Muhammad is equal to criticizing God. Now you're saying that you said no such thing. Again, I'll have to watch the DVDs, but you definitely said something along those lines. Feel free to fill me in on what you actually said in case I'm missing something.

UAE isn't the place where women go to prison for being gang-raped? Do you read the news?

Gang-Raped Woman Sent to Prison

As for Israel, without Western support, Muslims would destroy the entire nation. I'm sure you'd love to see the entire nation wiped out (given Muhammad's view of Jews), but I certainly don't want to see them destroyed. Here's a little experiment: Get all Muslims to leave Israel alone. Is Israel going to go around attacking people? No. There would be peace. In other words, Israel doesn't attack for no reason. They're defending themselves against a constant onslaught by your Muslim brothers. The real reason you don't like Israel is that the nation is a constant reminder of Western military superiority, which, according to your theology, shouldn't be the case.

Turning once again to the Religion of Peace Website, you accused the website of inventing things, and you told me to provide links to all of the thousands of attacks. I said that this is silly, and any unbiased reader would agree. (I'll tell you what, you provide me with a link for everything ever said by any Muslim, and then I'll provide you with a link for everything ever said at theReligionofPeace.com. My request is no more unreasonable than yours.) I offered a more reasonable solution. I said that you should pick a couple of events on the list, and that I would look them up. Since you've declined, I can only assume that you don't have any real objections to the content, and that this is why you make unreasonable demands (i.e. asking me to spend the next six weeks, day and night, doing pointless research).

David Wood said...

Bassam,

Here are some more analogies, with you and me as the main characters.

David does something Bassam doesn't like.

Bassam flies two planes into thousands of people who had absolutely nothing to do with anything David did.

David draws a small cartoon depicting Bassam.

Bassam goes on a world-wide murdering rampage in response.

David accidentally kills some innocent people in an effort to bring the guilty to justice.

Bassam intentionally targets innocent people in an effort to annoy the guilty.

David writes a poem criticizing Bassam.

Bassam murders David in his sleep.

David says that he will never accept Islam.

Bassam drives a bow through David's eye-socket, clear through his brain, out the back of his skull.

Bassam said...

David, where did I ever support the Muslim reaction to the cartoon controversy?

Where did I ever support the September 11 attacks?

You gave other analogies and I don't know what you are talking about there. The point is, that the difference between you and I is...

- YOU OPENLY SUPPORT THE TERRORIST STATE OF ISRAEL.

- I DON'T SUPPORT MUSLIM TERRORISTS.

- THE MAJORITY OF EVANGELICAL BORN AGAIN CHRISTIANS OPENLY SUPPORT THE STATE OF ISRAEL. YOUR WELL RESPECTED SCHOLARS DO SO.

- NO WELL RESPECTED MUSLIM SCHOLARS ADVOCATES FOR AL QAEDA OR SUPPORTS THE SEPTEMBER 11 ATTACKS.

Sure, you can quote some Muslims bums here and there, but not our well respected authorities.

So quit it with the false analogies David adn send me your rebuttal. We aren't going to finish our book at this pace.

David Wood said...

Ah, but you must support the killing of someone who says he'll never convert to Islam, as well as the killing of someone who criticizes Muhammad, since this comes from Muhammad himself.

As for the book, I agree. You said that you can only work on Friday and Saturday, correct?

David Wood said...

Yahya,

Clear up this rumor for me. (Almost all of my studies have been of Sunni Islam.) Some Sunnis say that you (not you in particular, but Shias) worship dead saints. Is that correct, or is this a misrepresentation?

Bassam said...

"Ah, but you must support the killing of someone who says he'll never convert to Islam"

No, I don't in a general sense. This requires a detailed discussion.

If this is an apostate who says that, then yes.

If this is someone who is in a war with Muslims and refuses to pay jizyah, then yes.

"someone who criticizes Muhammad, since this comes from Muhammad himself."

Define the word "criticize" for me and then I will tell you. also, tell me the circumstances.

If someone IN AN ISLAMIC STATE (vigilantism is condemned in Islam) says F*** MUHAMMAD, then yes, I say that the person should be punished. That is the law of the Islamic state.

But if you mean by "criticize", asking questions about Islam, for example...

"I am not comfortable about this aspect of Islam because..." without mocking or insulting, then not only is this permitted, but we hope non-Muslims do this.

Oh yeah David, good job trying to evade the Israel topic. I will make sure I have you say to the Palestinian Muslims who attend our debate "Jesus Christ loves you. I love you. I support Israel's occuption of your country though"

David, many Saturdays and Fridays have passed by and now I am in the middle of the semester. So i am having meetings with my class partners to work on our assignments. We are still in the beginning of our first crossfire. I am not optimistic about the July deadline.

Yahya Hayder Seymour said...

David,

This is what some claim, however it is far from the truth, We worship none other than Allah (SWT). Anyways, we are drifting onto a tangent here and this conversation might as well move into emails or a new thread of discussion elsewhere.

David Wood said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
David Wood said...

Bassam,

What are the rules concerning deportation in UAE? What would get someone deported? Here, let me give you a list. Which of the following would get a person deported, if he said them:

(1) "Jesus Christ is Lord."

(2) "Jesus died for my sins."

(3) "I don't believe in Muhammad."

(4) "Muhammad was a false prophet."

(5) "I don't believe in the Qur'an."

(6) "The Qur'an is not the word of God."

Bassam said...

Thanks again for avoiding the topic of Israel David.

I don't know UAE law that well to be honest with you. It wouldn't be right to let it represent the ideal Islamic state, since it permits too many unIslamic things in the country.

Muslims are not even allowed to publicly say that Christianity and Judaism are false religions.

They can only say so in their mosques and Islamic centers, just as Christians in their churches could say:

(1) "Jesus Christ is Lord."

(2) "Jesus died for my sins."

(3) "I don't believe in Muhammad."

(4) "Muhammad was a false prophet."

(5) "I don't believe in the Qur'an."

(6) "The Qur'an is not the word of God."



Hey David, what does American law say about:

1) Someone getting married to a second wife with the first and second wife's approval. Does he go to jail? For how long?

2) Someone cheats on his wife with a mistress. Does he go to jail?

David Wood said...

Bassam,

I think my position on Israel is quite clear. You refer to Israel as if it belongs to the Palestinians. That was a long time ago, my friend. The Jews share the land with the Palestinians. If Muslims would quit attacking the Jews, the Jews would no longer resort to violence. (If you want to go the "You say you like Israel, well, what about the time they . . ." route, I can do the same thing. Do you like Saudi Arabia? Well, then you must agree with everything the Saudis have ever done.)

As for UAE law, what happens, say, in a university setting? I recall you had a debate there a few years ago. Were the Muslim and Christian free to defend their views and to criticize their opponent's position? (I'm asking about the laws out there, because if there's a place where debates are possible, it would be cool to have a series of debates at some point in the future.)

As for your two questions, this would come down to state law. Some laws are federal, meaning that they're the same everywhere in the U.S. Other laws are made by the states, meaning that laws may be different in Virginia, New York, California, and so on. Laws concerning marriage are usually state laws. Adultery is against the law in most states, though the law isn't usually enforced. As for polygamy, it's against the law whether the spouse agrees with it or not.

Bassam said...

Well the debate that we had in the University did have Thabiti (an apostate by the way) declaring the truth of Christianity and trying to appeal to the Qur'an to prove his point.

See here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KEdKBfg3S0k&feature=related

I have another video of him 2 years before that attacking the manuscript evidence of the Qur'an.

Thabiti is fine and well. We didn't kill him or torture him as your paranoia and ignorance would probably make you think.

David, your a philosopher, yet with all due respect your logic amazes me.

You said

"You refer to Israel as if it belongs to the Palestinians. That was a long time ago, my friend. The Jews share the land with the Palestinians. If Muslims would quit attacking the Jews, the Jews would no longer resort to violence. (If you want to go the "You say you like Israel, well, what about the time they . . ." route, I can do the same thing."



So according to David's logic, we can say that if Bassam stole a thousand dollars from David, David can't take it back. Bassam has it now. In the past, David had those thousand dollars, but now they are for Bassam. David just has to live with it and not try to seek justice.

Note the absurdity of this logic.

Just because the Palestinians from the time their land was invaded until now are continuing to fight the conquerers and occupiers of their land, they are at fault. They have to live with the current situation that they are in.

All those millions of displaced Palestinians and refugees just have to accept reality as it is and stop "whining".

Those thousands of Palestinians who went jobless and starved to death because the Israelis demolished their olive trees just have to "live with it and move on".

Man o man, this coming from a "loving Christian"? I am trying my best to think that you don't represent Christianity when it comes to your support for Israel. But if this is really what your religion teaches, then your religion is one of hatred and violence.

David said:

"Do you like Saudi Arabia? Well, then you must agree with everything the Saudis have ever done.)"

Not true, but if Saudi Arabia today is committing a crime then I would condemn them for that crime. I won't condemn the Saudis of today for something that the Saudis did a hundred years ago, unless they support it and continue to implement it.

This is exactly what Israel is doing today. What business do they have in taking Palestine?

Muslims are not cowards who just "turn the other cheek", ok David? Sorry pal, we do things differently.

Anyways David, thanks for letting me know of your support for Israel. It makes me more confident that I am right in thinking that many/most Protestants do support state terrorism and are nothing more than hypocrites and liars for pointing fingers at Muslims and for saying that they are all for peace.

David Wood said...

Bassam said:

Thabiti is fine and well. We didn't kill him or torture him as your paranoia and ignorance would probably make you think.

I never said you would kill or torture him. Instead of forming an opinion, I asked two people who have lived there (you and Sami). How is this unreasonable?

Also, think about the context of my asking. I was asking because I thought it might be cool to have some debates in a Muslim country. Do you think I'd be pondering this if I were paranoid about being tortured and killed? Perhaps James White and I could come to town for a few debates. Do you know if anyone would be interested (i.e. in debating us and in watching the debates)?

As for Israel, you're misinterpreting my position. Of course people are bound to fight when their homeland is conquered. But how long should the bloodshed be carried out? Israel is there to stay. There's no conquering them. That means everyone has to live with it. If you say, "Well, the Palestinians were there first, so it's theirs," well, the Jews were there before the Palestinians, so where does your logic go? If we wanted to be thorough, we'd have to find some Canaanites, who were there 3500 years before the Jews, and give the land to them. Is this what you believe? Do you think that Native Americans should go on a killing spree here in America, since their land was taken from them? Or do you think that they should live in peace with those who settled here? (BTW, I do like Israel, but the main reason I'm arguing is that I know you're at one extreme on the spectrum. When I talk to Christians about Israel, I try to get them to see things from a Palestinian perspective. How's that for balanced?)

Yahya Hayder Seymour said...

David,
I have my last exams next week,

I would appreciate if we could do the email exchanges finalising the plans and any other loose ends we need to sort out this weekend if possible?

Thank You,
Yahya.

Bassam said...

anyone voting for MCCain?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WXZbIGJrDkg

Sami Zaatari said...

David here is the real threat:

U.S. Soldiers Launch Campaign to Convert Iraqis to Christianity

'The occupier is planting seeds of strife between the Muslims and Christians.' Iraqis claim Marines are pushing Christianity in Fallujah 28 May 2008 "They are trying to convert us to Christianity," said Muamar Anad, a Sunni Muslim like most residents of this city in Anbar province. Residents of Fallujah are abuzz that some Americans whom they consider occupiers are also acting as Christian missionaries. Residents said some Marines at the western entrance to their city have been passing out coins (with a Bible verse) for two days in what they call a "humiliating" attempt to convert them to Christianity.
The McLatchy Report

SOURCE: The Public Record
The Public Record
May 30, 2008

Some U.S. soldiers stationed in Iraq appear to have launched a major initiative to covert thousands of Iraqi citizens to Christianity by distributing Bibles and other fundamentalist Christian literature translated into Arabic to Iraqi Muslims.

A recent article published on the website of Mission Network News reported that Bible Pathway Ministries, a fundamentalist Christian organization, has provided thousands of a special military edition of its Daily Devotional Bible study book to members of the 101st Airborne Division of Fort Campbell, Kentucky, currently stationed in Iraq, the project "came into being when a chaplain in Iraq (who has since finished his tour) requested some books from Bible Pathway Ministries (BPM)."

"The resulting product is a 6"x9" 496-page illustrated book with embossed cover containing 366 daily devotional commentaries, maps, charts, and additional helpful information," the Mission Network News report says.

Chief Warrant Officer Rene Llanos of the 101st Airborne told Mission Network News, "the soldiers who are patrolling and walking the streets are taking along this copy, and they're using it to minister to the local residents."

"Our division is also getting ready to head toward Afghanistan, so there will be copies heading out with the soldiers," Llanos said. "We need to pray for protection for our soldiers as they patrol and pray that God would continue to open doors. The soldiers are being placed in strategic places with a purpose. They're continuing to spread the Word."

Karen Hawkins, a BPM official, said military chaplains "were trying to encourage soldiers to be in the Word everyday because they're in a very dangerous situation, and they need that protection."

That would appear to violate the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment prohibiting government officials, including military personnel, from using the machinery of the state to promote any form of religion. The book's cover includes the logos of the five branches of the armed forces giving the impression that it's a publication sanctioned by the Pentagon.
The distribution of the Bibles and Christian literature comes on the heels of a report published Wednesday by McClatchy Newspapers stating that U.S. Marines guarding the entrance to the city of Fallujah have been handing out "witnessing coins" to Sunni Muslims entering the city that read in Arabic on one side: "Where will you spend eternity?" and "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. John 3:16" on the other.

A Pentagon spokesman said he was unaware of the issue involving the distribution of coins and Bibles and declined to comment.

The issue comes at a particularly sensitive time for Sunnis who recently clashed with U.S. military in an area west of Baghdad week after an American soldier was found to have used a Koran, the Islamic holy book, for target practice. Following a daylong protest by Iraqis that threatened to turn violent, Maj. Gen. Jeffery Hammond issued a public apology to Sunnis in the area.

"I come before you here seeking your forgiveness," Hammond said. "In the most humble manner I look in your eyes today and I say please forgive me and my soldiers."

The soldier who shot up the Koran was disciplined and removed from duty in Iraq.

Mikey Weinstein, founder and president of the government watchdog agency The Military Religious Freedom Foundation (MRFF), said the religious intolerance among U.S. military personnel calls for a federal investigation.

"The shocking actions revealed just last week of American soldiers in the combat zones of Iraq and Afghanistan callously using the Koran for automatic weapons "target practice" is absolutely connected to the same issues of national security breach wrought by our United States armed forces proselytizing the local populations via the distribution to them of fundamentalist Christian coins, bibles, tracts, comics and related religious materials written in Arabic," Weistein said.

"The Military Religious Freedom Foundation has been acutely aware of such astonishing unconstitutional and illicit proselytizing in Iraq and Afghanistan for over three years now and knows how massively pervasive it really is. These proselytizing transgressions are all blatant violations of the Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ) and MRFF is now demanding that any and all responsible military personnel be immediately prosecuted under Article 92 of the UCMJ: Failure to Obey an Order or Regulation," Weinstein added.

Members of the U.S. military first started actively proselytizing Iraqi Muslims soon after the U.S. invaded Iraq in March 2003.

In a newsletter published in 2004 by the fundamentalist group International Ministerial Fellowship (IMF), Capt. Steve Mickel, an Army chaplain, claimed that Iraqis were eager to be converted to Christianity and that he personally tried to convert dozens of Iraqis, which is also an apparent constitutional violation.

"I am able to give them tracts on how to be saved, printed in Arabic," Mickel said, according to a copy of the IMF newsletter. "I wish I had enough Arabic Bibles to give them as well. The issue of mailing Arabic Bibles into Iraq from the U.S. is difficult (given the current postal regulations prohibiting all religious materials contrary to Islam except for personal use of the soldiers). But the hunger for the Word of God in Iraq is very great, as I have witnessed first-hand."

Mickel evangelized Iraqis while delivering leftover food to local residents from his unit's mess hall. He handed out Bibles translated into Arabic in the village of Ad Dawr, a predominantly Sunni territory where Saddam Hussein was captured.

"Such fundamentalist Christian proselytizing DIRECTLY violates General Order 1A, Part 2, Section J issued by General Tommy Franks on behalf of the United States Central Command (USCENTCOM) back in December of 2000 which strictly prohibits "proselytizing of any religion, faith or practice," said Weinstein, a former Reagan administration White House counsel, former general counsel to presidential candidate H. Ross Perot, and former Air Force Judge Advocate General (JAG).

In addition to coins and Bibles, there have been reports of the distribution to Iraqi children of Christian comic books published by companies such as Chick Publications. These inflammatory comic books, published in English and Arabic, not only depict Mohammed, but show both Mohammed and Muslims burning in hell because they did not accept Jesus as their savior before they died.

Chick Publications states on its website that its literature "is desperately needed by Muslims, but getting it to them without endangering our soldiers or enflaming the Muslim leadership will not be easy."

Postal regulations prohibit sending bulk religious materials contrary to Islam into Iraq, but allow religious materials to be sent to an individual soldier for their personal use.

Sending more of these materials than would be necessary for an individual's personal use, but not a large enough quantity to risk being flagged by the postal service, is one way that these materials are making their way into Iraq. Chick Publications advises those wanting to send their literature to military personnel to first find out "just what tracts would be most useful and how many they can effectively use," and "to find out whether the tracts can be drop shipped from Chick Publications or if they should be sent as personal mail from the soldiers' families."

A spokesman for Chick refused to comment for this story about the comics handed out to Iraqis.

Meanwhile, members of the 101st Airborne stationed in Iraq will continue their work evangelizing Iraqis unless it is told otherwise.

Llanos, the division's chief warrant officer, said about 2,000 copies of the military edition of the Bible provided to the 101st Airborne will soon be distributed to Iraqis.
However, reports on the Bible Pathway Ministries website up to 30,000 of the Christian books have been distributed to military personnel, some of which will presumably end up in the hands of Iraqis.

http://www.democracyfornewhampshire.com/node/view/5802

for all you say that Islam is the threat this right here refutes your nonsense, your lovely fellow Christian brothers who forcefully occupy Iraq with the gun are trying to convert them to Christianity, offcourse deep down you dont mind as your a fundamentalist evenagelical yourself.

you can say ohhh these christians are wrong bla bla bla, yet this will highlight your inconsistencies and double standards again as you leave no such allowance for Muslims, insisting that bad Muslims are true Muslims, hence be consistent for once!

heres the FACT, Christians in Iraq with the gun are trying to convert Muslims.

heres another FACT, no Muslim army is in the west with a gun trying to convert anyone to Islam.

:) the threat is clear, the threat is fundamentalist evangelical Christianity, which you belong to David, and which I am fighting. :) thats the true threat, a threat to Muslims, Christians, Jews, and Atheists.

Jay said...

"here's another FACT, no Muslim army is in the west with a gun trying to convert anyone to Islam."

Excuse me? No muslim army is doing what? Ok, let's put this in a little context.

It is AGAINST THE LAW in the USA to use government/military pressure to promote religion. On the other hand the forced conversions of the armies of Muslim states are securing in West Papua, Kashmir and have done in East Timor and the Balkans, to my knowledge, only fulfills the purpose of "jihad".

You know, Chick publications is the
publisher of Robert Morey (of the Allah = Moon God theory) so I don't need to tell you how low they are in the esteem of any reasonable Evangelical Christian. If these soldiers are engaging in such activities, they deserve to be disciplined - that's the ppoint of this article. Under U.S. law they can and must be corrected.

Now could you say the same for the Pakistani, Indonesian and Bosnian armies?

shafsha711 said...

the videos were all deleted ??!!
can anyone repost them plz?!
thanks

Pastor JDPalm+ said...

The video is available by searching at video.google.com

Gavoo said...

Islam is violent. Ask any non-Muslim working in Saudi,Kuwait,Bahrain,Egypt.... and he will tell stories of harrassments. Ask any non-Muslim living in the west whether he is being harrassed for being a non- christian and the answer will be NO. Check for yourself. This shows the real difference between Islam and Christianity.Let the people be the judge.Otherwise why should these english speaking Muslims living in the west left their home countries and settled there.
Muslims CANNOT in any way defend Islam and prove it as good religious movement.

trajiq31 said...

I would like to invite all of you to join in the rally on 9/11 in NYC. The face book page Stop the Islamization of America, or SIOA is organizing a HUGE rally with top speakers to march for the preservation of the dignity for all who died there on 9/11/01. Please check out this site and join your fellow Americans! If you would like to attend, but have no transportation, if you have transportation but not enough gas money, or if you are just looking for a way to help, please go to Facebook page, Ground Zero Transportation Exchange. They are trying to organize the biggest "Stars and Stripes" caravan ever witnessed. We are going to represent our States flag on our vehicle and COVER the rest in patriotic fashion, it will be like a sea of Red, White, and Blue!!!! Please join us!!

Can you imagine, three days before the protest, reports start coming in from California and Washington and other west coast states that a massive caravan has begun to form and the numbers just keep increasing with every mile!!! Can you imagine the looks of their faces as they see the full force of our patriotic spirit barreling down on them? It is going to be unbelievable!!!!!! I also had one of my coworkers suggest getting some of our local bikers involved. I know they are always riding for patriotic and community support. Can you imagine having thousands of motorcycles in the caravan, as loud as they are they will hear us coming for miles. Like the thunder before the storm. It has been way too long since we as a country have stood up in one collective voice and screamed NO MORE!!!! I would also like to see the people that cannot attend in NYC to go to their nearest mosque or city hall and protest there at the same time. So not only are we a HUGE movement in NYC but nationwide, we cannot be ignored nor denied. Any ideas on how to get our local communities involved?

http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=124674177543698

http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=143622362325508

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=112502342135070&ref=mf

http://www.facebook.com/?sk=2361831622#!/group.php?gid=110841015612178

Satish Kumar said...

If the videos or taken out of context. Then at what context is it legitimate to kill someone,hit someone and so on.