Wednesday, August 17, 2016

Shabir Ally and the 1924 Qur'an



Here's a clip from Speaker's Corner on Sunday at which Jay Smith and I talked about Shabir Ally and the 1924 Qur'an.

16 comments:

Keith said...

Someone once said: "It is easier to con people than to convince them that they have been conned."

The 1,400-year-old con job, probably the most successful ever, is now being exposed.




On another note, I pray for Shabir Ally. I hope he turns to Jesus soon. The real Jesus, the who is the Son of God.

Justpeace said...

Turning to Jesus for a Muslim leader would be very difficult. Saying no all his temporal profits/liberties, religious fame and popularity is not so easy for a man (esp. past his middle age). Coupled with losing all of these things would be certain humiliation, persecution and death threats. Why stir a hornet's nest when things are going on so good and smooth for someone?

Ordinary Logic said...

Opposing the other sunni schools ,The Maliki Sunni school holds on to their chain of tradition that acknowledges Basmalah as not part of Al-Fatiha Chapter because according to Maliki's tradition even some of the Uthmanic mushafs had no Basmallah Verse written in Al-Fatiha chapter as being proven through the authentic transmission of Quran in Warsh version.

The theological impact is quite severe(i might say)since reciting Fatiha is very fundamental in performing islamic daily prayer(Salah). To recite Fatiha without basmalah will disqualify All our prayers and islamic activites(including Hajj) according to other sunnis, while for Maliki Suni reciting Fatiha with basmalah in it, is makrooh meaning allowable but like eating filthy thing in emergency, eg.eating pork coz fyi eating pork is allowed in islam but in emergency only. And to do/perform makrooh things will have no reward in present nor after life.

Nojmul Huda said...

You do not need PhD degree like Shabir Alli to understand that Muhammad made the mantra (Surah) of Quran orally by himself by his Allah's name so that the then illiterate and simple Arabian Bedouins could believe Muhammad without doubt. Terrorists also kills people by the name of Allah (Allah-Hu-Agbar) like Muhammad so that moderate Muslims do not raise their voice for fear of Allah and Quran.

Quran is total contradictory by itself that is not possible for our Holy God. Surah 4:157 admitted that Muhammad’s Allah killed our Lord Jesus Christ. Surah 4:157 “And [for] their saying, "Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah."

It is easy to understand that if Muhammad acknowledge our Lord’s crucifixion and resurrection, Muhammad could not have established himself as greatest prophet of all time. Muhammad made all surah as required by his skill to manipulate people by the name of Allah. He made surah to cover up his evil works such as he made surah 33:37 to marry his daughter-in-law Zynab wife of Zayd, so that people do not revolt against him.

Muhammad was illiterate, all he gave good news to Muslims allowing them to marry 4 women and could enjoy improper sex such as sex with slave and with married women. This improper sex according to Holy Bible is adultery and God forbid to do.

Muhammad committed blasphemy denying deity of Jesus Christ as Son of God and lying about His death on the CROSS. I am 100% sure Muhammad and his followers would be thrown into hell for committing sin against Holy Spirit and Truth. Correct me if I am wrong.

youguerten ouikhalfen said...

Jay Smugh arguments us absolutely ridiculous.the Quran that Muslims have today is the same that has being revealed to the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)1400 years ago it's never being changed.he said it's not from God than I challenge him to come with anything like it...God has challenged the Arab to come with anything like it ,but they failed then he challenged them to come with a vers like it and they failed ...the holly Quran linguistically is miraculous ,it's also scientifically miraculous . All Muslims have the same Quran not like Christianity we found too many Bible versions and too many Bible Authors(John mark....)we can 't find the original Gospel of Jesus,what Christians have today is explanations and understanding of Paul and John....because of that Christianity has chifted from the Original teaching of the Prophet Jesus(pbuh) into idols worshipping ,if we go back to the old statement we find that the greatest come dementia worshiping God Alone....and that what Islam is about .worshiping the Creator not the creation (Jesus,spirit...)

Ordinary Logic said...

@youguerten

please answer these two simple questions: (1)IS Basmalah PART OF FATIHA ? (2) ARE THE MALIKI HERETICS OR NOT FOR REJECTING BASMALAH AS PART OF FATIHA? Because Maliki Sunni REJECTS any notion that verse of basmalah has ever been part of Sura Fatiha and because of that to recite basmalah in salah(prayer) is makrooh according to Maliki Sunnis. Moreover according to Maliki Sunnis chain of transmitted tradition, some of the authentic uthmani mushafs DID NOT HAVE BASMALAH AT ALL WITHIN SURA AL-FATIHA. This isn't the assertion of some orientalist but the obvious position of Maliki Sunnis, and if u would like to learn more about TRUE ISLAM especially Maliki Sunni madhab please read the explanation concerning this matter from a leading prominent Maliki Sunni scholar& expert Dr.Yasin Dutton in his book " Original Islam: Malik and the Madhab of Madina", starting from page 117, but u can skip to page 124 where it tells how according to Maliki Sunni's tradition several uthmani mushafs DIDN'T HAVE VERSE OF BASMALAH AT ALL WITHIN THE FATIHA CHAPTER, here's some excerpts from google book

https://books.google.co.id/books?id=azINyouP4EMC&pg=PA124&lpg=PA124&dq=basmala+part+of+Quran+MAlik&source=bl&ots=xmrrq51Eum&sig=bfSa2wsv8VRRWE2joc5jq5kXCVc&hl=en&sa=X&ei=z2p9U7HoH8X28QWq34DIAw&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=basmala%20part%20of%20Quran%20MAlik&f=false

Ordinary Logic said...

@youguerten

please answer these two simple questions: (1)IS Basmalah PART OF FATIHA ? (2) ARE THE MALIKI HERETICS OR NOT FOR REJECTING BASMALAH AS PART OF FATIHA? Because Maliki Sunni REJECTS any notion that verse of basmalah has ever been part of Sura Fatiha and because of that to recite basmalah in salah(prayer) is makrooh according to Maliki Sunnis. Moreover according to Maliki Sunnis chain of transmitted tradition, some of the authentic uthmani mushafs DID NOT HAVE BASMALAH AT ALL WITHIN SURA AL-FATIHA. This isn't the assertion of some orientalist but the obvious position of Maliki Sunnis, and if u would like to learn more about TRUE ISLAM especially Maliki Sunni madhab please read the explanation concerning this matter from a leading prominent Maliki Sunni scholar& expert Dr.Yasin Dutton in his book " Original Islam: Malik and the Madhab of Madina", starting from page 117, but u can skip to page 124 where it tells how according to Maliki Sunni's tradition several uthmani mushafs DIDN'T HAVE VERSE OF BASMALAH AT ALL WITHIN THE FATIHA CHAPTER, here's some excerpts from google book

https://books.google.co.id/books?id=azINyouP4EMC&pg=PA124&lpg=PA124&dq=basmala+part+of+Quran+MAlik&source=bl&ots=xmrrq51Eum&sig=bfSa2wsv8VRRWE2joc5jq5kXCVc&hl=en&sa=X&ei=z2p9U7HoH8X28QWq34DIAw&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=basmala%20part%20of%20Quran%20MAlik&f=false

The Burwell Family Travels said...

youguerten since the quran has plagiarized material from books written many years before Muhammad wbuh how can you even make such challenge?

youguerten ouikhalfen said...

@Ordinary logic according to the schoolars Basmalah is not part of any chapters of the Qurans :but it is independent Vers of Quran that Revealed to the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) to distinguish between chapters of Holly Quran We recite it between the end of a chapter and the beginning of other .thank you for your curiosity....I hope I answered your question correctly.

Nojmul Huda said...

@ youguerten ouikhalfen, I challenged Muhammad’s Allah to drop another copy of Quran on top of Masjid al-Haram (Mosque of Mecca) to remove doubt once for all. God of Moses wrote Ten Commandments on two stone tablets and gave those two stones to Moses so that people believe Moses and God. Holy God wrote Ten Commandments on stones, not one time but two times. What did Muhammad get from his Allah to proof that all 114 surah of complete Quran that came by 22 years to Muhammad were not from EVIL?? Interesting point, Muhammad never saw his Allah nor he talked with his Allah during his life time. What a black magic to make believe billions of people!!

Youguerten, Muslims’ brain has been washed by Quran’s one surah which says to believe it without question. Can your Allah write a book like Shakespeare?? Only stupid can say Quran is scientifically miraculous, whereas Quran was made 22 years after death of Muhammad. Why did Muhammad’s Allah take 22 years to give 114 surah of complete Quran when Holy God separated waters of Red Sea by few minutes?? Jesus proved Himself by different signs from above that made His disciples who were with Him to believe Him as Son of God.

The Bible is not like Quran, as Muslims believe. The Bible was not dropped from sky, it has 66 books written in different times by different authors by inspiration from Holy Spirit, to reveal the truth of Holy God. Throughout the Bible we find God gave evidence to proof His presence. For example, after resurrection, Jesus appeared to 500 people as proof that He raised from death. But we find in Quran and Hadith that Muhammad was poisoned and killed, enjoyed his life marrying 11 women, including a six-year-old girl Aisha.

Those who have eyes to see and ear to hear must find the truth about Muhammad and his miraculous Quran and Hadith that blind inner eyes of more than one billion people of today’s world and prevented them receiving God’s grace thru Jesus Christ.

youguerten ouikhalfen said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Ordinary Logic said...

@youguerten

Can u or any muslim find a book like Harry Porter? or can u find book like Das Kapital by Karl Marx? or your logic is laughable sorry to say...however speaking of 'book' can u find any book resembling the Bible , a book which includes Law,History of people and nations, Song&Poetry, Spiritual Wisdom, being written by numerous prophets,kings,apostles all compacted in One Book? it's a quite a miracle for itself ain't it?

The problem with crucifixion is on Allah to blame actually (if he was truly god), why He purposely made Jesus appeared to be crucified ? what is the purpose of this act then?

a)To deceive the Jews? history tells us the Jews still worship one God in very monotheistic way and the Jews have never considered themselves for having the Messiah/ Al-Masih crucified (which also contradicts claim by Surah 4:157-158 about Jews bragging for crucifying the Messiah), this only proves Allah is an incompetent failure god because His plan to deveive mortal people like the jews had failed.

b)or To deceive Al-Masih disciples perhaps? so then what's their mistake which is so bad that make Allah so cunningly in full intention had deceived them in believing through Al-Masih crucifixion all sin will be forgiven and furthermore made them believed Al-Masih is Son of God, this only proves Allah is a cunning evil deity who likes to deceive His 'loyal' followers.

Any accusation muslim throws toward christians about crucifixion in reality is indirectly accusing Allah for being both incompetent and evil cunning deity and if i had been a muslim honestly i would have not able to distinguish Allah with Satan.

The Burwell Family Travels said...

youguerten Since the author of the Quran plagiarized material from other books it is a very easy thing to come with verses like those found in the Quran.
Quran 25:5
And they say: "Tales of the ancients, which he has caused to be written: and they are dictated before him morning and evening."
Let's take a look at what "they" were talking about.
From the Jewish Mishna Muhammad wbuh borrowed this verse to place in the oft partially quoted Surah 5:32
"We find it said in the case of Cain who murdered his brother, 'The voice of thy brother's bloods crieth' (Gen. 4:10). It is not said here blood in the singular, but bloods in the plural, that is, his own blood and the blood of his seed. Man was created single in order to show that to him who kills a single individual it shall be reckoned that he has slain the whole race, but to him who preserves the life of a single individual it is counted that he hath preserved the whole race." Mishnah Sanhedrin, 4:5

The Burwell Family Travels said...

youguerten it is true that if we use only our mind our human reasoning we will reject the trinity. The truth of the triune nature of the Almighty is above and beyond the abilities of mere human reason, but if we beleive the testimony given in the entirety of scripture we are forced to accept the reality of God's triune nature. The nature of the Almighty transcneds human reason.

Ordinary Logic said...


@Youguerten
Are u absolutely sure with your statement ,"Basmalah is not part of any chapters of Quran" ? Lets be honest here, have u read&understand Quran thoroughly? have u in your life as muslim ever opened Chapter of An-Naml verse 30? because undeniably Basmalah in fact is PART OF CHAPTER An-Naml of Quran. It's quite hard to argue with person who doesn't know about his own religion very well which gives the impression you're not really knowledgeable in the matter you're talking about.

Now, regarding to your other statement claiming Basmalah is just an independent verse to distinguish between chapters, actually this 'theory' is held only by minority of muslim that is the Hanafist. The reason why this 'theory' is rejected by majority of Sunnis because there are no explicit statement in Sunna nor Quran to support this 'theory'.

The Shafii sunnis insist basmalah is part of Fatiha Chapter of Quran and being regarded as the FIRST VERSE OF FATIHA Chapter besides also middle verse (30)in An-Naml Chapter(some other shafiis even goes further saying basmalah is part of every chapters opening as the first verse except in At-taubah Chapter)

The Maliki sunnis based on their own authentic transmitted tradition (which is being admitted by ALL SUNNIS as THE OLDEST AUTHENTIC TRADITION for it derives from the practice of people of Medina /Amal madina in the time of the prophet) totally reject any other Basmalah verse besides the one and only 'authentic' basmalah verse within An-naml chapter. That's why reciting Basmalah while reading Sura Fatiha in obligatory prayer is makrooh /NEARLY HARAAM for the Malikist meaning has no reward form Allah at all in this life nor after, which is an opposite contradiction to the Shafiist & Hanafist where reciting of basmalah is an absolute requirement in obligatory prayer since without basmalah any obligatory prayer would be disqualified by Allah.

A prominent muslim scholar of Maliki sunnis Dr. Yasin Dutton explains very well the position of the Malikist in his book " Original Islam: Maliki and the Madhab of Madina" , some of the significant point being explained here is how the Maliki admits that even some original mushaf which was sent by Uthman in early 7th CE ABSOLUTELY HAD NO RECITATION OF BASMALAH WRITTEN in the Sura Fatiha Chapter. This is clear admission that even after the editing by uthman still quran's differences were quite severe where one party had mushaf with basmalah within fatiha chapter)while other party had mushafs with no basmalah written in fatiha chapter.

The dilemma of basmalah verse was so painstakingly confusing that because of this Imam Hanafi, the founder of Hanafist took middle ambiguous position where though he agree with the Malikis position yet he also tried to pander to the Shafiist and Hambalist and that's why he developed this awkward theory of'Independent verse' out of nowhere, yet seemingly out of guilt Imam Hanafi ordered his followers to recite basmalah 'silently almost like a whisper that can't be heard' when performing obligatory prayer.

I don't want to get u deeper in trouble @youguerten, just to make it simple i will repeat my former question : DO YOU CONSIDER MALIKI SUNNI TO BE HERETIC OR NOT FOR REJECTING ANY FORM OF QURANIC RECITATION NOR VERSE OF BASMALAH OUTSIDE OF SURA AN-NAML ?

Because it practically takes no-brainer to see a clear contradiction when , one party insists on validity of particular verse while other party rejects/omits this very particular verse.

.. thank you..

Unknown said...

I can't agree that we will reject the Trinity if we use only our mind and our human reasoning. The Trinity IS NOT against reason, and reason can accept it.

Saint Thomas Aquinas proved (centuries ago) that the doctrine of the Trinity is absolutely compatible with reason, although we will never be able to understand the whole of it. It's like the doctrines of omnipotence and the eternity of God that, although compatible with reason, are also beyond our comprehension.

I'm Catholic, but I think that reading Saint Thomas Aquinas is necessary even for Protestants, especially for those who are engaged in debating muslims.