Friday, April 29, 2016

David Wood vs. Shabir Ally: "What Is the Quran's View of the Christian Scriptures?"

Most Muslims are convinced that, according to the Quran, Jews and Christians corrupted the Torah and the Gospel. But is this what the Quran really teaches? In this debate, David Wood and Shabir Ally discuss the Quran's claims about the Bible.

 

26 comments:

Tom said...

What a great way to end the debate, with David Wood, confirming that Jesus is God using the Gospel that Shabir tried to use to claim that it was talking about muhhmad :) ... All Glory to our Lord Jesus Christ.

All I see from Shabir's depiction of his allah/god.. is that he is surely not a perfect god/allah, as he ALLOWS distorted scriptures to exist & his so called "final" book creates even Much more confusions, has no clarity and surely creates doubts, uncertainty about islam!

David Banks said...

Thanks so much for this, I've been really looking forward to it.
Tremendous to see the Quran being used by a Christian in a way that is so enlightening
Despite Shabir being no doubt a gracious and kindly presence I cringed somewhat at the suggestion towards the end that the Incarnation was like a fishing story which got bigger with time , not to mention yet again God the Holy Spirit being insulted by having Jesus's accurate foretelling of His arrival being corralled into a prediction about Muhammad.At least unlike the Chattanooga debate your alledged pleasure over the excesses of Islamic State didn't come up...

jt smith said...

Well done David

Ken said...

David,
you did a great job and you devastated Shabir's arguments.

I watched and listened twice and took notes and typed up summary of what I thought were main points and have interacted at Paul Williams blog.

see here is you are interested:


https://bloggingtheology.net/2016/04/30/what-does-the-quran-teach-about-the-bible-david-wood-vs-shabir-ally/#comment-13856

Reg Singh said...

From the entire corpus of Islamic scripture can Shabir Ally cite a single piece of evidence which shows that the Jews were ever aware that Muhammad was accusing them of corrupting their scriptures?

Reg Singh said...

RE; Quran 2;78

“And there are among them illiterates, who know not the Book, but (see therein their own) desires, and they do nothing but conjecture.”

Why is Allah concerned about these seventh century people not having knowledge of this book?

In this verse Allah is condemning a group of people called the Ummiyyin, for their ignorance of a book. It is obvious that Allah would rather that the ignorant Ummiyyin have knowledge of this Book. What book is it then that he wants them to have knowledge of? It is as clear as daylight that the book Allah wanted the Ummiyyin to have knowledge of was the Torah that existed in the seventh century. There can only be one reason why the author of the Quran wanted the Ummiyyim to know this book, he considered this book to be “Allah's book”. It is not credible that Allah is lamenting the Ummiyyin ignorance of a hopelessly corrupt book.


Again, the only reason why the Ummiyyin are being condemned for “reading their own desires” into this book is because the Quran considers this book to be “Allah's book”. Allah would hardly have bothered sending down a revelation condemning the Ummiyyin for reading their “own desires” into a largely man-made book.

Quran 2:78 clearly assumes the existence of an authentic Torah in the seventh century.

Reg Singh said...

I think this is the first debate which Shabir Ally lost decisively. But that is not because David is a better debater than Shabir. It is because at least 99 per cent of the Quran supported David's position. It is sad to see a a highly respected person like Shabir Ally defending the indefensible. I was still, at times impressed with Shabir's honesty.

Tom said...

Hi Ken,
I admire your patient, in dealing with the muslims who truly have no foundation to respond to your clearly made out points, Based on what the Bible & koran states...
muslims have to relie on modern day so called uninpsired scholars to support their man made assertions.. because the koran provides them with ZERO support/assistance!

I really cant beleive that they claim Hafsa's manuscripts have been preserved..when the hadiths said that it was burnt After her death.. why are they so dishonest?

In a previous debate Shabir with Dr Wood, he labels the hadiths as chinese whispers, which means its all corrupted & untrustworthy!

Great Job, in responding to them.. they take wild swings & miss badly... :)
Shalom.

Jo Jo said...

I have NEVER heard that the Dead Sea Scrolls included manuscripts that conflicted w the Torah/OT manuscripts of 1000 years or so previous. Shabir gave no citations. He just stated it and went on... Comments? another deception?

His attempt to say John the Baptist was greater than Jesus, according to Jesus, was also an eye opener to a whole new level of Muslim logic.

Reg Singh said...

Since corruption of the Bible is one of the biggest bones of contention in religious debates today, can Shabir tell us why it was never debated once during Muhammad's 23 years of preaching?

Reg Singh said...

According to Shabir Ally there are in the Quran both negative and positive statements about the Bible. These he tries to reconcile by concluding that the original Bible is inspired but not so the existing one. Shabir does, however, appear to accept that the Quran itself never makes a distinction between an "original Bible" and the one that existed in the seventh century.

What Shabir is desperately trying to deny is that many of these positive statements in the Quran assume that the Bible existing in the seventh century is pristine scripture. Therefore anything in the Quran that were to say otherwise would simply make it self-contradictory. This is a point I think David did make, but Shabir either missed it or ignored it.

Wild and far-fetched re-interpretation of these positive statements is nothing more than a desperate attempt by Muslims to save Islam from the Quran.

Reg Singh said...

With regards to Torah variants can Shabir Ally cite a single independent Old Testament scholar who has found credible evidence which supports the Muslim charge of corruption i.e. that in approximately 1440 BC there existed a pure Islamic text of the Torah teaching pure Islamic doctrine and this was later corrupted by the Jews? The moment Shabir Ally does this I will recite the Kalima.

Nearly all Old Testament scholars fall into three categories i.e. Christian, Jewish and independent. The vast majority of these scholars are Independent.

Reg Singh said...

The Quran's view of the Torah.

QURAN 46:10. Say: "See ye? If (this teaching) be from Allah, and ye reject it, and a witness from among the Children of Israel testifies to its similarity (with earlier scripture), and has believed while ye are arrogant, (how unjust ye are!) truly, Allah guides not a people unjust."

Here Jewish testimony regarding the Quran's similarity to the seventh century Torah is being given to the Arabs as not only evidence but UNDENIABLE EVIDENCE for the divine origins of the Quran. Any Arab rejecting this evidence is arrogant, unjust and will be deprived of Allah's guidance.

Can Shabir Ally tell us how The Quran's similarity to a corrupt Torah, be PROOF of its divine origins? How can any book's similarity to a corrupt Torah be proof of its divine origins?

akairey said...

Mr. Wood...have you watched Jay Smith's "Critique of Islam?" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zd9lIuUjPs0&list=FLo-qZ8onMje41k9J87KapKg&index=31

I would recommend ALL TO WATCH THIS!

Reg Singh said...

The Quran threatens those who rejects its message with punishments far too unpalatable to even contemplate. Given that the consequences for those who infer the wrong message are extremely grave, the possibility for error must not exist. We would expect the message of the Quran then to be very, very, clear. Yet according to Shabir Ally:

“For a long time many academic scholars had said very much what David (Wood) had said today and in fact so many of them have said it that even Abdullah Saeed has been persuaded by it and for a time I myself was being inclined to that position as well to think that the Quran is actually affirming the Torah and gospel as it existed at the time the Quran was being revealed in honest totality”.

Now if no less a person than even Shabir himself was being inclined to infer the 'wrong' message then surely the Quran's message regarding this issue is not as remotely clear as it needs to be.

Reminds me of what David has said previously: “Allah wants to say one thing but he ends up saying just the opposite” or words to that effect.

But it is nice to know that a highly respected and knowledgeable Muslim was inclined to understood the message of the Quran to be, the same as I understand it to be, even if it was only “for a time”.




I

Angelo said...

Brother David pointed this out SO MANY TIMES that if Mohammad is the helper / prophet and Allah sends prophets. And if Jesus was sending the helper( John 16 : 7 ) then Jesus is God. Jesus is Allah. I have pointed this out in my Facebbok in English, German, French, Spanish in my album EXISTENCE OF GOD( album's name is like that, because I was atheist till 2006 ). An Indian debater BROTHER JERRY THOMAS and his team pointed this is English and Tamil in YOUTUBE. And I think this point is ENOUGH for Muslims to convert to Christianity.

palash rehman said...

Hi I am a Muslim and I like to know if idolatry is sin in bible why there is idol of Jesus and Mary and what is the meaning of Sunday and how did it. Started with full details please reply .thankyou

TPaul said...

It truly amazes me that an intelligent man like Shabir Ali would still defend Islam. He even admitted in this debate that he was on the verge of conceding to the fact that the Koran did not state that the Torah and Injeel were corrupted until he read the work of Sydney Griffith..
It is ironic that Muslims themselves have to explain away the blatant errors and contradictions in the Koran and all with a little help of their self loathing infidel friends from the west.
Shame on you Mr. Griffith you sniveling traitorous backstabber.

Andrew said...

@ Palash Rehman. Hello Palash. Yes, idolatry is a sin. That's why you don't see statues of Jesus or Mary in Protestant churches. There are a quite of lot of books out there on the Reformation. It was quite a big event in western civilisation.

Tom said...

Hi Bro. Ken,

Brillant responses to Paul William's, desperate futile efforts to pervert the Grace of our Lord Jesus Christ!

If you Love your "God with all your heart, mind & soul ..", You will drift further away from sin, does that mean you will NOT sin, No.. we have all fallen short of His Glory!

This is something muslims will not get, The Law is there is expose man's sinful nature its not there for salvation, Grace, Jesus Christ is the Salvation, basically the law is there to tell man, stop your prideful dependence on yourself and Know you NEED the Son of God's intervention PERIOD.

"7 Do not be deceived: God is not mocked, for whatever one sows, that will he also reap."
Galatians 6:7

Shalom.

palash rehman said...

I got have the answer of my ? . what is the meaning of Sunday how it originated in what time please tell me.

Andrew said...

Hello Palash. I'm not a scholar. But my understanding is the word Sunday comes the Romans who called the first day of the week Sunday after "the venerable day of the sun". Ie they worshipped the sun. Not sure if that's your question? Or are you asking why Christians worship on Sunday? That's because Jesus was resurrected on Sunday.

I hope that's helpful.

Reg Singh said...

Shabir Ally stated (26 minute):

"... we now have to look at the transmission history to see to what extent the Bibles today retain the original message of God as it once was".

Can Shabir then cite a single independent New Testament scholar or historian (i.e. Bart Ehrman) whose research has led him/her to conclude that Jesus and his early followers were Muslims and they followed a book called the Injeel which taught pure Islamic doctrine?

TPaul said...

@palash, Statutes and pictures (icons)representing Jesus and Mary are just that. A representation.... Not a model for worship. Just as you would have a photograph of your loved one who passes on.
However I find it rich that a Muslim who bows down five times a day to a geometrical shaped object in the Arabian peninsula that housed 365 pagan idols, once worshiped by Mohammed would judge modes of worship of others. Islam is simply a "rinse and repeat" version of an ancient pagan religion.
For Christians Jesus is the "Lord of the Sabbath" hence our day to remember the Lord is the very day that He defeated death for us.... The very first day of the new creation...
Thanks for your curiosity about Christianity, I hope some day you will see the blatant errors in Islam and come home to Christ.

Angelo said...

May be Shabir and many Shabirs are scared of death to leave the religion of PEACE.

Dennis Abraham said...

Sad to see the ancient Mark Antony's 'Caesar's funeral speech' tactics being used by Dr. Ally. How can a respected scholar like Shabir "rip apart" WORDS from the biblical verses and use it in his argument as a prophecy for the Prophet of Islam and yet object David's arguments especially when David provides the historical and textual background for the Quranic verses that he quoted. His intellectual integrity has to be suspected.
Again as usual Shabir makes vague comments of "respected Christian Scholars" and extremely vague references instead of actual Biblical or Quranic texts.
Why should Shabir wander from the topic(sadly this happens all the time, it is very annoying) and beat around the bush instead of facing the arguments placed to him?