Saturday, October 3, 2015

Debate: "Was Jesus a Prophet of Islam?" (Shabir Ally vs. David Wood)

Christian sources tell us that Jesus is the divine Son of God who died on the cross for sins and rose from the dead. Muslim sources tell us that Jesus (Isa) was a prophet of Islam who didn't die on the cross and never rose from the dead. Who's right? In this debate, Shabir Ally argues that Jesus was a prophet of Islam, and David Wood responds.

17 comments:

Christian A. said...

Great job David! You totally annihilated Shabir with his old nonsense! You are in my prayer.

kiwimac said...

Shabir Ally's strengths have always been quickness of thought and reply, which make him appear to be knowledgeable and 'on top' of the debate. David and other Christian debaters have recently shown that Shabir's arguments are really quite shallow...Well done David!

Japie said...

Great debate. How would you respond to the Revelation 2 argument? I.e. Paul preaches you can eat meat sacrificed to idols unless it causes division. But in Revelations 2, it mentions the Nicolaitans who acted like Balaam who through Balak seduced Israel to fornication and eating meat sacrificed to idols. So what does "like" mean here? Is it referring to the specific act of eating meat sacrificed to idols or to the act of seducing others to sin?
I was thinking that in the case of Revelation 2, even if it refers to eating sacrificed meat, it means the whole act of idolatry through it. So you would eat sacrificed meat as part of acting idolatrous.

So according to Paul, it is possible to eat meat that was sacrificed to idols without acting idolatrous. The scenario in Revelations 2 is people who worship idols and part of that ritual they are eating meat sacrificed to idols as an expression of idolatry.

Of course, there is the added complication that in the OT time story that Rev. 2 refers to, eating sacrificed meat was forbidden, period. And that fornication is even now forbidden, period. So I guess muslims like Shabyr would use this as amunition when you try to explain the meaning of the passage.

I thought it was ironic that Shabir used Revelations here because it has just about the highest Christology of the New Testament. Another example of how Shabir just cherry picks scripture to get it to say what he wants it to say.

Well done David. I look forward to listen to the other debates when they come available on YT

Japie

Tom said...

What I found astounding is that, he is so ready to apply modern day "scholars" as authority but will totally disregard his very own early muslim sources, hadiths as made up etc... that makes islam look totally pathetic!

He portrays himself as a sheep but truly is a fox!

You called him out on so many instances!
How he apply his very own sura 10:94... is a failed 'gymnastics'flip, resulting in him smacking himself on the face!

foofy said...

I watched the debate, and had some long thoughts and a question. :)

I wish you had said a bit more about Shabir's theory of theological development and Markan Priority. Your argument re: his book says that the Gospel are worth reading was good, because it put the burden back on Shabir, but it was his best argument and weakened your initial statement.

Anyway, if he likes this gospel so much and can explain away any Christian-ish theological statements, why doesn't Mr. Ally be consistent and proclaim it legitimate?

No, the Gospel of Mark contains statements about Jesus returning in the glory of His Father (8:38) and claiming that He is the Son of the Living God (14:61-62).

Since Shabir liked to use a prostration argument re: Gethsemane(why is he cherry-picking from Matthew? I thought he didn't like it), the Gospel of Mark shows people prostrating (prosepesen) before Jesus. (7:24-26)

You did a good job keeping your thesis in the ring. It was interesting.
Question for you:
What is your source for the definition of "Gospel"/"evangelion"?

Trevor said...

Shabir and many others keep using the argument that the Gospels (and the Scriptures in general) have been changed, corrupted or have been gradually developed over time, but none of them can produce an original copy by which they can demonstrate, by means of a side-by-side comparison of the originals with the ones we have now, that their claim is actually true.


Without an original copy as evidence, all they can do is to keep repeating their assertion, but with nothing to back it up.

Luther-Carlo Suvu said...

When being carefully noticed, Shabbir is seemingly like a 'broken record' repeating the same theme about allegedly corrupted teaching of christianity, over and over again LOL. This guy just can't provide any answer to defend how his Allah messed up Christianity and the teaching of Isa by deceiving and letting the supposedly corrupt teaching to prevail and even take the upper-hand even till this day ( Christianity still is the Largest religion in the world). How INCOMPETENT & WRECKLESS Allah is!

Another thing should be noted : Islam actually portrayed Jesus as a FAILED Prophet ( I think this was caused also by natural hatred of Muhammad toward Christ since he himself was overwhelmed by the spirit of Antichrist)

palash rehman said...

If he is god how can he die . no one can kill god. Then how is he god?

palash rehman said...

It means if human sin Jesus have to pay for there sin not the one who sinned right

David Wood said...

Palash, we've answered these questions numerous times. Let's see if you're really interested in the answers:

"How Can God Die?"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XM0Pjbkp3E4

"How Could God Punish Jesus for the Sins of Others?"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=syf3lqbdTCo

See? Simple answers to simple questions.

HisBullAssh HamAndAss said...

Superb but risky tactic Bro.Wood!

I perceive u sort of had permitted Shabbir to throw all of those garbage of Shabir's Corruption&Conspiracy Theories and rather than replying to those garbage u instead kept focusing on the most essential matter, which is showing the incompetence of Allah for keeping Allah's promise in preserving the supposedly Islamic follower of Jesus along with its teaching and more than that to make them victorious. Still worst (for them) u even pushed furthermore proving that actually it was Allah who had been the real perpetrator in deceiving the supposedly Islamic followers of Jesus instead of Paul.

EVEN If for instance all of Shabbir's garbage theories on bible corruption had been true then it only would've strengthen the notion that Allah have been an Incompetent Entity all along. ha.ha.ha.ha


At 20:20, Shabbir was whining at David for lack of critical thinking toward David's own religion and he demanded that David should be more focused on that instead of attacking Islam.

REVIEW: Funny.. isn't that what Shabbir has been doing all along? focusing on criticizing christianity instead of his own religion? And btw Was it not the theme of the debate is'Jesus The Prophet of Islam' and Shabbir certainly already had his chance in just the very previous debate?


At 21:00-23.00.. Shabbir was mumbling around with his gibberish theory and insisting that what David had perceived from Bible couldn't have been true since Bible is corrupt.

REVIEW: Since Bible is corrupt so why Shabbir still uses the Bible as the based to prove his theory then??...hahaha. In fact if Shabbir was consistent with his own method then the most fairly and NEUTRAL opinion in this matter would be no conclusion for both sides since the Bible is unreliable.



At 23:54-24:30 Shabbir refused the common general & not to mention authoritative Tafseer (interpretation)of Isa's death in Quran and chose Shabbir's own interpretation in his attempt to deny the fact that Allah was the perpetrator of deception by making someone else appeared as Jesus.

REVIEW: The story of substitute person is actually the strongest interpretation based on The most authoritative Tafseer that is Ibn Kathir and for this particular story of Isa, Tafser Ibn Kathir even has claimed for having the most reliable chain of narration from the Salafs. Another strong & widely recognizable Tafseer which also support the story is Tafseer al-Jalalyn.

Hilarious& quite sickening frankly! on seeing how Shabbir has always insisted on using the very minor and deviant view of christianity but strangely so quick to deny the major and most authoritative view within his own religion. (Sadly Bro.David missed the opportunity to expose this)

However even if we had followed the Shabbir's minor interpretation on Isa's death still it wouldn't have changed the notion that Allah is a deceiver since either being substituted or not, it's a fact that Quran clearly states Allah was the initiator for making Isa appeared to be crucified which means the supposedly heretical doctrine of salvation through the cross had been initiated by Allah all along.

HisBullAssh HamAndAss said...

(CONTINUATION)

25:55-26:10, Shabbir argued the true followers of Jesus hadn't been deceived but it was rather the Jews who were being deceived.

REVIEW:Either Shabbir is living in planet Mars for so dumbly ignores the fact that 100% of those who claims themselves as Jesus's followers are now believing on the event which Shabbir claimed was fabricated by Allah Himself to deceive the Jews.

And even if being examined from Apostle Paul's time still unanimously those Christians in Paul's time had also believed in this supposedly DECEPTIVE STORY of ALLAH.


If Shabbir truly believed on this Allah's way of fabricating Isa's death toward the Jews yet still turning a blind eye on both historical and present factual facts as he claims Christians were not deceived with those story then obviously Shabbir is just being willfully idiotic!

Even worst Shabbir showed Allah as the same as some kind of reckless general in battlefield who point a mass destruction weapon toward a highly populated area filled with his own army just to kill a very small handful of enemy. Since for Jews it have been hardly no significant effect for them if Islam's premise was true, in contrary the major devastation surely is on the supposedly Islamic followers of Isa since they have been all misguided even from the time not far after Isa's ascension.

26:40 and so on... After this minute Shabbir was literally just mumbling more unintelligibly, I will just point out some Shabbir's blunders which David missed to execute.

--Shabbir claimed The True Followers of Jesus which is the an-Nasturriyah was made victorious in particular way with no explanation at all what particular way is that, meaning just mumbling again.... and if in case what Shabbir meant for the term 'particular' was for some 'privileged status' of Jesus' followers in having heretical view but still excusable for being Islamic then practically Shabbir was agreeing w/ David.

-- Though David did reply, but the lying spirit argument should've been replied by explaining the distinction where Jahweh released the lying spirit&delusion upon the sinful and condemned people while in contrary in Quran the delusion unfortunately fell primarily upon the good guys(Isa's Muslim followers) and worst devastated them more significantly compare to the Jews.


--After acknowledging the theme (Was Jesus the Prophet of Islam) in the closing statement Shabbir again mumbling like broken record attacking christianity instead of defending Islam which by the way more relevant w/ the theme


Though I believe u've missed some several opportunities to totally obliterate Shabbir but above of all It's no doubt the victory was on Bro.David's side

Well Done !

Unknown said...

Hi..
I couldn watch t video, some prob..anyways after reading the comments i got to understand that David had t advantage over Shabbir.I jus felt lik commenting based on the above comments..Well here we needn discuss whether Islam says if Jesus (AS) is a prophet or not...the actual issue is whether Jesus of Christians is the same as Isa of Muslims.Well after understanding both the Books it s understood that they are the same..but the position held is different..Christians consider Jesus as Son of God and muslims consider him prophet. Christianity is not the only religion that has made a God send prophet as God himself.

For humans we have 46 chromosomes in which half set is contributed by father n t other mother..a slight variation in t chromosome set may cause many health issues...anyways Mary contributed her half..but how can god pass his half set as he s perfect God n has nothing human in him? If Father God doesn't contribute then how can God say Jesus is his son?Mary is definitely carrying t sin lik all people did...so Jesus would definitely carry within him half sin atleast..so how can he be free from sins?if he is send by Father god to sacrifice his life for t sins of people who will believe him? A lot of people died around that time without knowing Jesus existed? What about their sins ? Is it their fault that due to geographic distances and lack of communication they didn't hear about him and died carrying their sins? So Father god had plans of only forgiving sins of people of Israel..I don't know what justice is shown by Father God..Isn't people in t other parts of earth the creation of this Father god?

Unknown said...

So the next question is for whom was Jesus send...
Matt 15:24 jesus answered "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."...
john 10:16 "I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd."
So Jesus says that he has come for the lost sheep of Israel..the 12 tribes (not going into the details)..if then how can Jesus be send for saving entire humanity from the sin..
k if it is for this Jesus had been send then why was Jesus not rejoicing when the event had approached..why was Jesus weeping , crying and beseeching God the Father to take away the bitter cup of death from him..If he was send to die for this purpose why did Jesus ask to help him from this death?
Matt 26:36-43
Then Jesus went with his disciples to a place called Gethsemane, and he said to them, “Sit here while I go over there and pray.” 37 He took Peter and the two sons of Zebedee along with him, and he began to be sorrowful and troubled. 38 Then he said to them, “My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death. Stay here and keep watch with me.”

39 Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed,“My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will.”

40 Then he returned to his disciples and found them sleeping. “Couldn’t you men keep watch with me for one hour?” he asked Peter. 41 “Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.”

42 He went away a second time and prayed, “My Father, if it is not possible for this cup to be taken away unless I drink it, may your will be done.”

43 When he came back, he again found them sleeping, because their eyes were heavy.

Matt 27:46
Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?" (which means "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?").
when Son knew that he was send to be sacrificed why was he crying asking Father why have you abandoned him?..
To understand the cry and worry we need to check
Deuteronomy 18-20
"But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods,is to be put to death.”
Deuteronomy 21:22-23
“And if a man has committed a crime punishable by death and he is put to death, and you hang him on a tree,
 his body shall not remain all night on the tree, but you shall bury him the same day, for a hanged man is cursed by God."
The entire worry of Jesus was dying on the cross...if he dies upon the cross people would be mislead and would fail to recognise his truth..

I still don't understand how Christians believe that their God died on the cross...an accursed death...This death actually proves the people who planned this to be correct and Jesus an imposter..No matter what all words are said death on the cross is accursed ,which is clearly specified in scriptures.

Japie said...

@Unknown "Mary contributed her half..but how can god pass his half set as he s perfect God n has nothing human in him? If Father God doesn't contribute then how can God say Jesus is his son?"

Doesn't Islam teach that Allah created Isa without a father? By miracle? Well same answer here.
How is Jesus then God's Son? This question seems to assume that God the Father had a baby with Mary as per human reproduction. This is not what is intended in any new testament text. it is God the Son who pre-existed eternally with the Father who took on flesh and dwelt as a human being (See Philippians 2:5-12). So the idea is that although God is spirit, he took on a human body. So human beings have a body and soul or spirit. So we also have a supernatural self which is united with our body. In similar ways (but not exactly the same of course) Jesus's soul or Spirit was God united to his human body.

There is a lot more to it, but you can find out a lot on this website.

So was Jesus sent only to Israel? "john 10:16 "I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd." You answered your own question. Jesus also has sheep outside of Israel, but when He was on earth, His priority was to come to the lost sheep of Israel. This was His priority. You can see this reflected in Paul's writing, like Romans 1:16 " For I am not ashamed of the gospel: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek."

"I still don't understand how Christians believe that their God died on the cross...an accursed death...This death actually proves the people who planned this to be correct and Jesus an imposter..No matter what all words are said death on the cross is accursed ,which is clearly specified in scriptures."

This is committing a fallacy called "affirming the consequence". This means that if you argue
1. If P then Q
2. Q
3. Therefore P

This is fallacious as Q could have come about for different reasons than P. And so it is not guaranteed.

These scriptures are true that false prophets are cursed and those hung on a tree is accursed. BUT, it does not follow that anyone hung on a tree or accursed is actually guilty of being a false prophet. MANY prophets in the old testament were killed, tortured, cursed etc... Why? Because they were FALSELY accused. In the same way Jesus was falsely accused. Even Pilate agreed with that.

Nevertheless, eventhough Jesus was wrongly accused for all these allegations, God in His great wisdom allowed this so that Jesus would take on the curse that should have been ours.
"For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit." 1 Peter 3:18

I hope this helps

shabsdc said...

@Japie Christianity is not the only religion who made God send prophet as God itself..Greek mythology has so many such God's children..like u said Quran does teach that Jesus was born without a father but Allah says its not hard for him as Allah created Adam without father n mother...so according to Allah its not hard for him to create the way he wishes.. 

Matt 10:5-6 Jesus throughout speaks about lost sheep of Israel... that is ofc the lost tribes of Israel..n Jesus told his Apostles not to preach anyone else otherthan t tribes of Israel... 12 tribes in which only 2 were there in Israel n 10 tribes were scattered..he wanted to find those lost tribes to preach them as well coz God had asked him to do..thats what is specified in john 10:16... that there are other sheeps...
if u check history you will find details regarding this...

There are no prophets who didn't have people who opposed him..there were prophets who were killed...
In old testament its well said that hanging on t cross is accursed..what happened b4 t old testament is not issue..t issue is after seen in Old testament , if a person proclaims as prophet dies on t cross he is a false prophet..by killing Jesus jews are trying to prove according to t testament that he is a false prophet...
If Jesus was send to bear the sins of his believers and did so by his sacrifice on the cross ...y is he coming again?
1 Corinthians 15:14
The tomb of Jesus , khanyar street ,Srinagar, kashmir , India..His name was Yus Asaf..Yus Asaf in hebrew means Jesus , the Gatherer...1900 yrs bac he came to preach kashmiris as they are the decedents of Tribes of Israel..

Japie said...

Hi Shabsdc, thanks for your lengthy reply. I like it that you search the new testament for answers.

"Quran does teach that Jesus was born without a father but Allah says its not hard for him as Allah created Adam without father n mother...so according to Allah its not hard for him to create the way he wishes.. "

Thanks. That was exactly my point. So if creating a man without parents is easy for God, wouldn't even be easier to create a man through the womb of a woman? And if he could do that, how hard would it be for Him to take on that body in which He dwels (For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him... See Colossians 1:15)

"Matt 10:5-6 Jesus throughout speaks about lost sheep of Israel... that is ofc the lost tribes of Israel..n Jesus told his Apostles not to preach anyone else other than t tribes of Israel... "

Could you please provide a reference here?

Because when I look through the gospels I find the opposite:
“All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you." Matthew 28:18:20

Acts 1:8 "But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.

So it is quite false to say that Jesus wanted His disciples to only reach Jews.

"In old testament its well said that hanging on t cross is accursed..what happened b4 t old testament is not issue..t issue is after seen in Old testament , if a person proclaims as prophet dies on t cross he is a false prophet..by killing Jesus jews are trying to prove according to t testament that he is a false prophet..."

Yes, but like I said before, this does not prove He was guilty. He was accursed by the people wrongly. However, God's plan was that He took that curse in our stead.

However, if your argument works, then this means Jesus was a false prophet. But that means that the Quran is wrong about Jesus. Are you sure you want to make that argument??

"If Jesus was send to bear the sins of his believers and did so by his sacrifice on the cross ...y is he coming again?" 1 Corinthians 15:14

Well as this verse states, the resurrection from the dead is central to Christianity. And yes, He promised He will come again, but this will be in glory.

"The tomb of Jesus , khanyar street ,Srinagar, kashmir , India..His name was Yus Asaf..Yus Asaf in hebrew means Jesus , the Gatherer...1900 yrs bac he came to preach kashmiris as they are the decedents of Tribes of Israel.."

I have no knowledge of this story. However, the return of Jesus will be very clear to everyone. Here is a simple way to know this as Jesus Himself promised:

“So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man."Matthew 24:26-27

Please check out these references and read them in context of the whole passage. And keep reading the gospels. ;-)

God bless you

Japie