Sunday, October 4, 2015
David Wood vs. Shabir Ally: "Does Paul Give Us the Truth about Jesus?"
Christians believe that the Apostle Paul was one of history's most faithful men of God. Muslims, however, often claim that Paul was a deceiver who corrupted Christianity. Can an examination of the evidence help us decide who's right? In this debate, David Wood and Shabir Ally debate the question, "Does Paul give us the truth about Jesus?"
6 comments:
First, Congratulation Brother David! I truly find it "Sad" that Shabir Ally cannot realize how Obvious Muhammad was a False Prophet and that he was the "One" corrupting the real & authentic message of Jesus!
Muslims often said about Jesus that he was not crucified as it only appeared so and someone else took his place! If that was True, it would just affirmed that ALLAH was the best Deceiver, a Cheater and how can anybody trust a God that can deceive You? The only deceiver I know is the father of all lies which is Satan.
Good work David. Shabir really is like a wind up toy. He has a few catch phrases and thats it. He was even hoisted on his own petard, quoting a christian writer who actually supported your argument. Well done.
David,
The quote you gave by James D. G. Dunn was great. Where is that? Please give bibliographic reference.
You did an excellent job in all these debates.
I am trying to listen to them several times, and take notes - great information and interaction between you and Shabir.
Ken Temple
The first time I listened to this debate, I was walking and listening, not watching. Had to go back and watch and then I saw the cover of the book you were quoting from - it is James D. G. Dunn's Jesus, Paul, and Gospels (2011)
It does seem contradictory to other stuff Dunn says.
Paul Bilal Williams also uses Dunn a lot in his attacks on the Bible.
I wonder if Dunn explains that he has changed his views.
Dunn has written so much, and I tried to read his books that P. B. Williams quotes from - a lot of Dunn is pretty difficult material.
But the quotes you gave were fantastic.
I wish there was a good critique of Dunn as a whole by an Evangelical who holds to Inerrancy, because he is so nuanced and difficult to understand and seems contradiction to his own writings many times.
How funny that Muslims usually seek approval from Modern liberal ( eg.EP.Sanders) or also some claiming to be Evangelical yet leaning toward liberal scholars such as Dunn. In Islam they would never allowed some 'modern and liberal' muslim scholars to be considered authoritative and even more they would take it further to condemn such scholars as heretics.
How contradictory it is with christian apologist like David or Shamoun who always refer their arguments based on 'Conservative and Authoritative Reference' of Islam .
Back to the topic, Shabbir obviously pressed on this idea with strict and narrowly manner that whatsoever happened, Paul should and must have broken the agreement with James concerning the dietary law, and this is the proof that Paul was not a true follower of Jesus. And we all supposedly know this based on The Book of Acts in NT.
However funny thing is Shabbir also claimed that the very same book was 'manufactured' by Paul associates to polish Paul's image and to establish Paul status as true Apostle.
Everyone can see this is such a silly game being played by Shabbir.
David had already made the case closed by explaining it based on the true context which is about fellowship between Jews&Gentiles and how Paul himself has explained it further concerning this dietary rules in Romans&Corinthians. However childishly Shabbir still whining that James should've explained the dietary laws as explicit as the one being described in Epistle to the Romans. Shabbir forgot that Book of Acts is not a Teaching guidance as Paul's Epistles do but rather as a BOOK of Historical Records.
Lastly, David had hit the nail to the coffin by kept emphasizing how Allah who had promised the supposedly true follower of Isa to be victorious yet in reality instead the followers of Paul the supposedly heretic, who have been victorious UNTILL NOW AND STILL !{ Christianity is still the largets religion in the world).
And Shabbir's excuse by saying that Paul's spread of heretic teaching that had overwhelmed & subdued the supposedly true follower of Isa has been approved by Allah, is just SAD. I guess Shabbir was so out of TRICKS that he had to admit His Allah sided with heretic instead with Allah's own people and furthermore lead them astray for 600yrs without any guidance at all since all holy books had been being corrupted.
And even more if the spread of Gospel after year 600 till now and the present status of Christianity as the Largest religion of the world would also being counted then Allah is surely The Most Propagator of Heresies of All. By those conclusion then Allah is no better than Satan after all.
The belief of the majority of the muslims on Jesus , that Allah replaced Jesus with someone else is as sad as the christian belief that Jesus died on the cross..In one Allah became a deciever (God forbid ) n in the other Jesus the God turns imposter...both the beliefs according to me is heartbreaking...The worst part is both sides are happy with their beliefs.Why are both the parties so keen in proving the death on the cross when it is so precisely specified in Bible and Quran that Jesus didn't die on the cross..in fact Bible specifies it very very clearly... The belief in god doesn't increase when He replaces a person with someone else..coz if he is replacing a person with Jesus ,that person shld look lik Jesus..n the people who planned this for Jesus ,seeing him dead on the cross will believe that Jesus was imposter..now doing this what is God trying to prove? Didn't God seriously want Jews to believe in him..? By doing such an activity thats what one would feel..Christian belief is similar to this, by killing God they name it as sacrifice.. It's high time we wake up...people have started thinking of only logic and when it comes to religion nothing is applied...The victory of Jesus is when he survives crucifixion and tells the believers that see God has helped me and since i survived crucifixion I am a true prophet...
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