Thursday, April 9, 2015

Nabeel Qureshi vs. Shabir Ally: "What Is God Really Like, Tawhid or Trinity?"

Here's an excellent debate between Nabeel Qureshi and Shabir Ally that's sure to be a classic (though I suspect Christians will be sharing it much more than Muslims!).


Nojmul Huda said...

Thank you Dr. David Wood, for opportunity to see live debate by your website. It was interesting for both Christians and Muslims to know the truth and set us free from doubt to embrace the light.

There are huge difference between test of Muslims Allah and Judeo-Christian God. One is dark and the other is light.

Dr. Shabir Ally and Muslims’ fundamental believe is that Allah is so powerful that everything, even a leaf fall from a tree by his will. All human being is nothing but a puppet driven by Allah with impulse. It means Muslims believe that a thief performs stealing by the will of their Allah, not by temptation of devil.

Same way Muhammad received surah from Devil but perceived as from God to kill Christians and to say their scripture has been corrupted without seeing original copy. Devil gave surah to justify Muhammad’s marriage of his daughter-in-law, surah given to loot and rape property and women respectively of non-Muslims and so on.

Muslims with this foolish simplicity believe Allah forgives human sins whenever he likes, and does not need to sacrifice His only begotten Son Jesus Christ to evils of the world. It will be difficult for Muslim to believe Triune God whom Muhammad neither saw nor heard His voice as other Prophets heard.

But on the contrary Nabeel Qureshi and Christians’ believe God is absolute Holy, no evil works is done directly or indirectly by God. “When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone;” James 1:13. For “Justice and Mercy” character of God, God had to sacrifice His Son for our salvation.

Muslims do not believe “free will” as gift of God to human being, and thus God left judging human being to Him at the last day. They do not know “For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.” Romans 6:23. It is sad that Muslims unknowingly worship evil power as Allah.

May God open Muslims’ minds to see His light and find the truth!

psykojojo said...

Was it just me or did Ally spend the entire time attacking the trinity? I think his plan was to put Nabeel on his heels and keep him there so that tawhid would be out of the light

King Arthur said...

I think for the most part ...Ally is really good at causing doubt and confusion....but is very bad at addressing the facts.

Andy said...

Dr. Ally is very clever and will turn the average Christian into a pretzel if one is not aware of his tricks. He is a very good orator, many of the verses he quotes in the Bible are from memory and he rarely uses notes. Having said that, one example of his "tricks" so to speak is to attack the clarity of the Bible when he says to interpret the unclear in light of the clear. He then proceeds to NOT use this hermeneutic on Revelation 4:5 and accuse Christians of not stopping at 3 persons and that even the Bible can provide justification to go beyond 3 persons. Another example is that he agreed that Tawid is not mentioned in the Quran or Hadith but tried to take Nabeel to task for the words "one God in 3 persons" not explicitly said in scripture. While he allows for the concept in Tawid in the Quran, he will not allow the concept of Trinity in the bible. James White clearly pointed out in a debate with Dr Ally before how he uses uneven scales in his attacks against Christianity as in that debate Shabir only quoted agnostic sources to discredit the bible but those same sources would absolutely reject the Quran as inspired as well. Looks like Dr Ally is at it again but at least this time he tried using Christian sources.

Hazakim1 said...

Nabeel destroyed Ally, IMHO.

Amed ma said...

Why would you suspect that christians would share it much more then muslims. it was obvious who has won this debate Shabir Ally was the clear winner. i think you were picking sides and didn't listen to the debate sincerely. just like when the christians thought that jimmy swaggart won the debate against ahmed deedat. (while that wasn't the case) just pathetic and those silly attempts of nabeel qureshi to discredit tawheed by attacking the quran was just pathetic. by doing so he attacked his own concept of God (trinity). because you christians believe in that the bible is the eternal word of god so that would make the bible by your definition also God. so instead of believing in the trinity you all should start believing in that the father, son, holy spirit and the bible are God. Monotheism (tawheed) always wins against Polytheism (trinity). Islam is the truth and the truth always wins against falsehood and christianity is false.

Anthony Rogers said...


Christians do not believe the Bible is eternal. God alone is eternal. The Bible was inspired by the eternal God in time. The prophets and apostles spoke from God as they were borne along by the Holy Spirit.

Only in Islam do you find the confused idea that something other than God, i.e. the Qur'an, is eternal and that the existence of two eternals is what is meant by monotheism. This is not something that the prophets ever taught, and it violates basic canons of logic. At the heart of Islamic belief is rank contradiction...pure and simple.

Dacritic said...

That is why sometimes I feel an anonymous vote from the audience is not a totally bad idea. A vote taken before the debate to gauge the general stand of the audience before the debate, and then a vote taken after the debate to let the audience express themselves to see if any of them has "switched sides". As what happened in the "Is Islam A Religion of Peace" debate here:

I know this would not be applicable to a worldwide audience but at least it catches the mood of the audience in the auditorium.

Then again, I thought this debate between Nabeel and Shabir was done in good spirit, Nabeel said early on that Shabir was the better debater and Shabir jokingly saying Nabeel would no doubt "win" this one.

Tom said...

Thank you Anthony Rogers, for straigthening out the usual delusional muslim in this case "Amed ma".

Abu Bakr ibn Abd al-Wahhāb said...

Anthony, what we mean when we claim that the qur'an was eternal is in the sense that it was eternally in the knowledge of God. God, in eternity past, always knew he would reveal the qur'an. So basically, what is meant when the qur'an is said to be eternal, it's not talking about the physical qur'an, but it is simply referring to the knowledge of God, in that God always knew from eternity that he would reveal the qur'an.

smalltallest88 said...

@Amed and @Al Wahhab

Even recently I was discussing with some of my muslim friends if the Quran was eternal word of Allah or created? They all seemed to have different opinion about the question posed to them. Some will say eternal while some will say created. For the ones that says eternal, I then pose another question like this to them. Why don't you now worship the Quran since it's eternal word of Allah? Is Allah's word not Allah? To the ones who said created. I pose a new question to them like this, are you saying Allah's word is different/apart from him?

No matter which way they intended to go, they still end up having issue about the Quran if it's created or eternal. And most of you like Ally will prefer to attack the Bible and try every possible means to run away from defending the Quran. I wish I can find a muslim whose motive will just be to answer question on the Quran and at least do away with attacking the Bible.

Naren said...

Abu Bakr... that's precisely the point that Nabeel had raised... then this "word of god" which you refer to as the Quran is eternal as Allah... which is nothing but John 1... in the beginning was the Word and the Word was God and the Word was with God... God and His word are one.
The Q&A session was brilliant and exposed thoroughly the dual standards such as wherein Shabir Aly shamelessly quoted the verse which says that "God is not man, neither the son of man"... but then Nabeel corrected him that the verse points that God cannot lie...
I see that the only theatrics that Shabir excels is at is memorising verses and quotes, context be damned... Shabir is not more than a sophisticated version of Joker Naik a.k.a. Zakir Naik...



Anthony Rogers said...

Abu Bakr,

Sunni Islam does not teach the mere "ideal preexistence" of the Qur'an. Such a view is redundant and says nothing about the Qur'an that can't be said about anything and everything else. In fact, since the Qur'an says Allah knows everything, including all future events, then even wine, pigs, and Satan preexisted in his mind and are thus eternal, which is hardly what orthodox Muslims are saying when they say the Qur'an is eternal. Mainstream Muslims assert the real preexistence of the Qur'an and not that it is eternal in the same sense as Satan and pigs.

Besides, even if we grant that what is eternal is Allah's knowledge and not the Qur'an as such, all you have succeeded at doing by this maneuver is pushing the problem one step back. Now, instead of the contradiction of affirming that Allah and the Qur'an are eternal, you have the problem of asserting that Allah and the attribute of knowledge are eternal. According to the Mu'tazila, this constitutes a denial of Allah's absolute unity and is a form of shirk. So you either have to affirm Allah's unity and deny that he has multiple attributes, or you have to affirm that Allah has a multiplicity of attributes and is not absolutely one. Of course neither option is open to you as a Muslim since the Qur'an leads to both of these mutually exclusive conclusions, and so you either have to stick your head in the sand and live with the contradiction, or you have to leave Islam.

TPaul said...

Abu Bake says " ..... So basically, what is meant when the qur'an is said to be eternal, it's not talking about the physical qur'an, but it is simply referring to the knowledge of God, ..."

This it seems is a convenient in between way of dodging the question..... " the knowledge of God"..... Really? The Koran is hardly a perfect book, and would God keep an eternal knowledge of the redundant information found in the Koran. Like the cursing of Abu Lahab.....

"The power of Abu Lahab will perish, and he will perish. His wealth and gains will not exempt him. He will be plunged in flaming Fire, and his wife, the wood carrier, will have upon her neck a halter of palm-fibre" (111:1-5)...."

Think about it... Does a supreme God really need to hold such an eternal grudge against a man billions and billions of years in the future?

And what about the "Loh Mahfooz" (preserved tablet in heaven) why was it necessary tho create such a contraption? Was God's memory starting to wain that he needed to preserve his " word" in a material form in heaven?

It's synonymous to the human invention of a hard drive to store information, simply because humans have limited capacity to retain memory, therefore an external source would provide an excellent means to store information for future reference....

Why would an eternal God with an eternal and infinite mind feel the need to store a few hundred verses externally apart from himself?

It's quite a conundrum to believe in the Allah of Islam.... It defies logic...

Nojmul Huda said...

Bottom line, Quran as an object, a book, was not preexisted like Muslim Allah. So Quran is not written by Allah, like God written 10 Commandments in a stone and given to Moses.

Abu Bakr ibn Abd al-Wahhāb said...

Anthonoy, thanks for responding, I actually didn't think anyone would notice my comment, I appreciate it a lot. I have so much respect for you.

I have a question, doesn't christianity and judaism have to deal with the same question. For example, if we talk about knowledge, do you not have to talk about whether God is knowledge or whether the knowledge of God is separate from him?

Trevor said...

Since Islam flat-out denies Christ’s death and resurrection which is the central doctrine of the whole Bible, then there really is no reason to trust anything else that it has to say (other than what the Bible already states) in regard to other parts of the Christian doctrine either, including that of the triune God.

And since the basic doctrine of the triune God can be grasped by anyone, including by Muslims and Jehovah’s witnesses (Unitarians), etc., then that shows that they are most likely muddying the water on purpose when arguing against it.

The basic foundation of the doctrine of the triune God is plainly laid out for us throughout the Scriptures when it talks of earthly or heavenly powers and authorities.

Any office of authority which has the title of ‘governor’, ‘prince’, ‘king’, ‘prime minister’ ‘president’ etc. imparts that title on the present occupier of that office. Whoever occupies and serves in the office of governor or king carries and is addressed by the title ‘governor’ or ‘king’.

And the Scriptures plainly tell us that there is one single highest office of authority in heaven which has the title of ‘God’ and that there are three equal Persons (the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit) who equally occupy this highest office and who therefore equally have the highest title of ‘God’. That is the only way to make any seemingly difficult and contradictory verses in the Bible easily agree and flow together and without altering their structure or plain meaning.

This can readily be shown by using any of these most seemingly difficult and contradictory verses. For example, verses where the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit address one another as ‘God’, or where they address themselves as ‘God’. E.g. the Father says to the Son:

But to the Son He (the Father) says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever” Hebrews 1:8

And Jesus, the Son, says to the Father:

“My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?” Matthew 27:46

And of the Father:

“I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.” John 20:17

And Jesus says of the Holy Spirit:

“…by the Spirit of God” Matthew 12:28

And the Holy Spirit says through (2 Peter 1:21) David:

“For David himself said by the Holy Spirit: ‘The Lord [the Father] said to my Lord [the Son], “Sit at My right hand, till I make Your enemies Your footstool.”’ Mark 12:36

Jesus also says in Matthew 4:4 “…but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God” which at different times is the word of either the Holy Spirit (2 Peter 1:21) e.g. in 2 Samuel 23:2, or Jesus Himself, who is the “Lord your God” of the Old Testament (Matthew 23:37; John 8:58) and our Creator (John 1:1-14; Colossians 1:16), or the Father “This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased.” Matthew 3:17.

Trevor said...

And there are some who point to verses like Deuteronomy 6:4 to argue that God is just a single Person rather than a triune Godhead.

“Hear O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one!”

But in focusing only on the polytheistic element of this verse or attributing it only to polytheism, they miss the overall main point that Moses was making. Deuteronomy 6:4 (and 4:35, 39) is simply in regard to Israel being admonished by Moses for their tendency to worship multiple gods and idols and worshiping any or all of them collectively as ‘God’, as he explains in previous verses (Deuteronomy 4:16-19, 25-28). Moses is warning Israel not to worship multiple gods or idols, which have multiple levels or offices of authority, in the place of the one true office of God (Deuteronomy 5:7) occupied by the “Lord your God”, or Lord of Hosts, who is Christ, the Messenger in Malachi 3:1, who is the true God of heaven and earth (Deuteronomy 4:39 and as also shown in Isaiah 43:11; 45:21, 22). And as far as the Lord of Hosts/Christ was concerned, Israel was to focus on Him alone at that point (and He alone being the Savior), since the Father and the Holy Spirit were to be more clearly revealed by Him later in history when He was manifested in the flesh (1Timothy 3:16) as Jesus Christ, i.e. “He who has seen me has seen the Father” John 14:9 and “But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I have said to you.” John 14:26. Unless we look to Christ first, and to Him alone (John 3:14-15; 14:6), we will never be saved, never see the Father or be guided by the Holy Spirit.

Naren said...

Anthony, as always, a pleasure to read and hear you...

Abu bakr, you seem to be a honest seeker and I appreciate your way of questioning. The problem that you mention is the problem of aseity and has been answered very well by philosophers... notably among them being William Lane Craig ( “’Aseity’ comes from the Latin aseite, meaning literally “of oneself.” Used by God, it denotes that He exists in and of Himself, independent of anything else. He is self-existent… The biblical basis for God’s aseity is found in the facts that 1) He existed prior to and independent of creation and that 2) He brought into and sustains in existence everything else that is.”– Geisler. Now, this raises the the question whether attributes such as power, knowledge are also eternal. These words such as knowledge and power are labels of who God is and is capable of, these "labels" are mere descriptions and has no causal power... that is, they don't really exist (M not sure whether you understood what I said, if not, please visit, WLC has done a brilliant job). As far as the Christian understanding is concerned, we believe that God in past eternity, before the foundations of the world Jesus Christ was chosen (1 Peter 1:20) and sacrificed for the sins of the whole world (Revelations 13:8). This was then revealed through historical incidents and through prophetic utterances recorded in the Holy Bible. This is the reason, why Christians don't consider it a big deal when told that the original manuscripts are not preserved which contain the letter for letter the inspiration of the Holy Spirit... we have more than enough evidence which says that even if the original manuscripts are not preserved, the thought and will of God conveyed is well preserved in the Holy Bible.

But, for Muslims, that's not the case since they believe the Quran existed since eternity word for word and are ready to slaughter anyone who "violates" even a word... this is nothing more than what Anthony and Nabeel pointed out that such "pre-existence" of the Quran violates the monotheistic eternality of allah and is shirk... which then led to the Muslim inquisition.

Hope this helps,

In Christ


Nojmul Huda said...

@ Trevor, excellent description with biblical reference deity of our creator. There is no other god other than Triune God who created this Universe and us. We cannot understand God Who is Spirit and Truth with our necked eyes. Like Math is difficult to understand without mathematical brain, we also need helper from God the Holy Spirit to understand God. God the Son, Jesus Christ confirmed the Truth about Triune God, because He was the only person in the world who came from God and proved Himself as God with miracles and signs.

But Muhammad was from this world like us. He had no experience about Holy Spirit, who could reveal truth about God to him. What he understood with simple brain, oneness of God by one attribute only. He expressed this idea in Quran to convince illiterate people of Bedouin. To justify his idea, Muhammad blamed Christians without any proof corrupting Scriptures. Present day Muslims by fear of being killed believe Quran and Muhammad.

Anthony Rogers said...

Abu Bakr,

Yes, that question has been asked and answered by Christian theologians. Since Christians are Trinitarian monotheists rather than unitarians, we have the tools to answer this question without falling into contradiction. Christians believe that God is Triune and not a solitary monad or an undifferentiated unity like Muslims believe about Allah. So when we speak of God having attributes, we are not violating our understanding of God's oneness. When, however, Muslims attack the Trinity, i.e. the idea that there is a differentiation that can be made between the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit in the being of God, even calling the latter shirk, they thereby undercut their ability to answer this question without denying their affirmation of Allah's absolute, undifferentiated unity. For a Muslim to affirm that Allah has attributes is to commit shirk for the same reasons they claim Christians are committing shirk: both, in principle, involve a denial of the notion of undifferentiated unity or oneness.

Abu Bakr ibn Abd al-Wahhāb said...

Anthony, thanks for responding. I appreciate the time you put in to answer my question.

smalltallest88 said...

In the beginning was the word and the word was with Allah and Allah was the word. The word came to them and they twist it to a created being and not a creator.

My muslim friends still having difficulty if "Allah's word was created" or "Allah's word was the creator". Difficulty if "Allah's word is separated from him or part of him".

These are people that just want to attack the bible but can't differentiate between Allah and his word. #Pathetic

AJAI FENN said...

Anthony how would you answer shabbir ally's charge that the christian understanding of the torah/bible as the eternal word of God could entail the trinity being expanded to a quarternity

Anthony Rogers said...

I would reply by pointing out that Shabir applied his own inconsistent position to Christians. That is, Muslims are the ones who believe Allah's revealed word is eternal, not Christians. As I pointed out above, the Bible was inspired in time: hence, it is not eternal. So what Shabir did was take a Muslim belief about God's verbal revelation being eternal and then said this would create a quaternity in the context of Christianity. But arguing in this fashion would be like me pointing out that since Christ is the Son of God, then Muslims are guilty of a contradiction since they would then believe Allah has a son and also that it is shirk to believe that Allah has a son. Shabir would quickly point out that belief in Christ as the Son of God is a Christian idea, not a Muslim one; so we can't charge Muslims with an internal contradiction when the contradiction is not within Islam but between Islam and Christianity.

If I recall correctly, Shabir did claim that Jews believe the Torah is eternal, but I am not aware what he is referring to here, and he gave no reference for this idea (which is quite often the case). The fact is, what the Midrash and other authoritative Jewish sources say is that the Torah was created two thousand years before the universe (q.v. Midrash Beraishis Rabbah, 8), but this is a far cry from saying the Torah is eternal and uncreated.

Although I don't have time to go into it now, there is a lot of evidence to show that the Jewish idea that the Torah preexisted the creation of the universe was an attempt to transfer to the written word of God things that had before been said about the Memra of Yahweh, i.e. the one John referred to as the Logos. After the advent of Christ, all the talk of God's Memra/Word as a divine person had to be mitigated lest it be used as confirmation for Christianity. Evidence for this thesis can be found by a comparison of early Jewish sources, such as the Targums and various intertestamental literature, with the Talmud and other post-Christian Jewish writings. The writings of Alan Segal, Daniel Boyarin, Moshe Idel, Daniel Abrams, and other scholars of Judaism have a lot of profitable discussion relevant to this.

Here is a provocative quote on this:

“In the pre-Christian Targums, there is a name for the Word of God, Memra, which recurs hundreds of times. But from the Talmud it has wholly disappeared. Evidently, to go on using it when Christians could point to its realization in a definite historical personage, would have been in the highest degree dangerous to Pharisaic orthodoxy,” Eliakim and Robert S. Little, The Living Age, vol. 197 (Boston: Littell and Co., 1893), p. 456.

I hope that has answered your question.

AJAI FENN said...

Anthony, Thank you so much .That was very helpful

Ricky Black said...

Why did Allah wait 5000 years to give the Koran to Mohammad? Why didn't Allah just give the Koran to Moss's? With the ten Commandments. Why did Allah give the Koran to a pedophile, rapist, murderer, slaver, meteorite worshipper?

sudheer said...

Shabir ally always quotes from the books of some self claimed scholars as if those are most authentic sources.
In other hands Nabeel should have started his debate by praising our Lord Jesus christ rather than Islamic greetings.

Samy El Sayed said...

It was clear Shabir Ally had the better arguments.
Nabeel kept trying to shift the problems with the doctrine of the Trinity onto Islam by suggesting Islam had the same problems. He may have convinced his fellow Christians by using this tactic but all Muslims know that the fundamental problems with the Trinity are not found in Islam.

Faseeha Taj said...

God did not wait 5000 years to send in the qur'aan god waited for humans to have the ability to understand things better if bible is truly the word of god then tell me where does this evil or devil come from who created evil did jesus (pbuh) create it does the bible justify evil if evrything was created by jesus the son of god or god and mary to be a mother of god and daughter totally a contradiction

Robin Dass said...

God did not create the devil, it was Adam and Eve who gave the authority that God had given them to the serpent by yielding to his deception thereby making him the evil ruler of the world. If Adam and Eve had really understood and known thier position and their authority that they were created in the image of God they wouldnt have been deceived. They would have stood their ground. So it was man(Adam and Eve) who allowed the existence of evil and not God. God created a spiritual being(angel) called Lucifer and Lucifer(Satan) gained the power with the help of man in the garden of Eden at the very beginning itself. Sin entered the world through Adam and Eve and the wages of sin is death. Because of one sin all kinds of evil entered into the world. Name anything you want, it is the by product of the sinful nature- Pain, sickeness, brokeness, evil thoughts, sexual immorality, impurity, anger...The authority given to mankind by God was lost. Satan became the god of this world by man's power given by God. Only a righteous and perfect man could give us back the authority that was lost. There was no one righteous not even one because all were born sinners. That is why God had to become flesh and dwell among us and lead a perfect life and be sacrificed as a ransom for many. Yes Jesus the Son of God, the Word of God came into this world as a human born of a virgin. He was crucified, buried and was raised to life thereby defeating death(eternal seperation from God) and not only that he took back the authority and power that the Satan had stolen from mankind and gave it back to us. That is why the Bible clearly states in John 1:12-13 - Yet to all who did receive him(Jesus), to those who believed in his name(Jesus), he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God. So you must be born again to enter the kingdom of God. You must accept God's divine plan to save mankind from the cluthches of Satan. Acts 4:12 - Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved.” Be blessed by the saving grace of Jesus Christ.

Unknown said...

It's very easy to figure out whose God is true simply by reading the comments here. While the Moslems are respectful and civilised in their comments, comments coming from the Christians are hateful, abusive and ignorant. Therefore, I conclude that God of the Moslems (Allah) is the true God

teresa smith said...

I agree that their is no eternal living God but Allah He has no son and i accept that prophet Muhammad is His Messenger (PBUH) as well prophet ISA (JESUS PBUM) as His Prophet and His messenger

J Ni said...

Those who believe in God who is omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient, all pure, holy and just will know He can be none other but loving, gracious and merciful. To show anything other than loving, gracious and merciful is to show one who is diffident and has no authority and greatness whatever. Just a few examples:

Let's take omnipotence: Does one so omnipotent as God require others to compel, threaten and kill those who don't believe in Him when He has already set an accounting day where none can escape? Saying that God requires humans to fight and kill for His right is to depict God as lame and powerless. All those who uses force and kill and say this is what God wants them to do is insulting His omnipotence and deny His authority as final judge on accounting day. Imagine saying God needs humans to fight for Him when He can summon earthquake and whatever destruction at will.

Let's take omnipresence: An omnipresent God doesn't require a certain direction/place etc. to pray to. To say that one must face this or that direction and to pray this or that way is to say God has directional and hearing limitation and can only be communicate with in a certain way. Again insulting God's powers.

Let's take omniscience: God as creator and designer of all creation knows everything He created. Nothing is hidden from Him whether one wants to express or not. So with such powers will God require to one to follow this or that order to communicate with Him. Isn't what is in the mind and heart good enough for Him without having rules and laws to regulate how one should behave towards Him. If one has respect, actions will automatically be respectful. Often times when humans try to be more just than God they only succeed in mocking Him. Take kosher and halal food for example. If by just touching anything remotely associated with pork can be so harmful to one's spirituality what about the air in the world that one breathes which is the same air that pigs and those who eat pork breathes.