Saturday, April 12, 2014

Muslim Apologist Tries to Convince Me That the Earth Was Once Flat and That the Sun May Set in a Muddy Pool!

Hisham Sufyan is an internet apologist who describes himself as a "knight of Allah":

He's been trying to convince me that Islam is true by claiming that the Qur'an has been perfectly preserved and that it contains no errors. When I pointed out that, according to his own sources, entire chapters of the Qur'an were lost (along with lengthy passages and individual verses), he argued that Allah had sent jinn to destroy these portions of the Qur'an because they had been corrupted!

His response to obvious scientific errors in the Qur'an was just as interesting. After I showed that, according to the Qur'an, the sun sets in a muddy pool (18:86) and the earth is flat (88:17-20), he defended the Qur'an:

While it's refreshing to see a Muslim taking these Qur'an verses seriously and defending their accuracy (rather than radically reinterpreting their obvious meaning), we can only chuckle at the attempt to convince us that the sun sets in a muddy pool and that the earth was originally flat. Welcome to Islam, folks!


Amed Ma is apparently embarrassed by what his prophet says about the setting of the sun, so he's attacking the hadith in which Muhammad claims that the sun sets in a pool. According to Amed, the hadith is weak. I've asked him to name his hadith scholars who claim that the hadith is weak, but he resorted to personal attacks instead. Meanwhile, here's the hadith in the Darussalam edition of Sahih al-Bukhari. Notice that the hadith scholars classify the hadith as sahih. Better luck next time, Amed Ma!


Koala Bear said...

What planet does he live on - it sets on mine every day.

Vineet Pal said...

yea you're right, the sun does set in a muddy warm pool .... ONLY IF THE SUN WAS NOT 1000 TIMES BIGGER THAN THE EARTH..

Jonas ola said...

A jinn corrupted the earth to become round..?! Really? A jinn could be more powerful than Allah that it can reshape the world? Very 'wise' friend there he have...

tomebaden said...

Yes, I agree, he takes it literally which means he is a good example of why muslims can wrap their minds around the profound stupidity of the Koran. He makes this question an object of faith. It doesn't do us any good though because we know that even if the earth was at one time flat, the sun could never land on it, nor even get close to any water because as we know water would evaporate, or you might say, the sun would have to shrink to the size it appears in our eyes, and then it would still evaporate the water because it would be just as hot because the sun does not blow up and become really small, it would have to simply get really small while it continued to near the earth and the water would evaporate, the humans would evaporate (the ones he said lived there) and then of course the sun would have to either continue under the flat earth and come pack up the other side or we would need a new one every day. Since, this Koran is said to have existed for all eternity before mohammad was given it, and it was expected to last until the final day, Allah would have known what a problem we would have believing in it once he made the earth round. By the time we got our round earth, we would be calling mohammad a flat earther! Allah, would not do something to cause us to defame his prophet and not believe in his word. That would make Allah complicit in murdering billions of unbelievers.

tomebaden said...

Wow, what a terrible place for Allah to put muslims in. Talk about lack of peace! This one would keep einstein up for nights! How would the sun get so small without evaporating the water and killing the people that live next to it. And why would the water be muddy? It should appear to be white like boiling water evaporating! Even Hollywood could be more descriptive than mohammad (peace be upon...myself..better put peace to good sense in casting pearls before swine.)

Carlos said...

As I viewed your referred link

I noticed the sentence from Kitab Tabaqat al Kabir which Bassam Zawadi argued when he debated Nabeel,

"The people have been guilty of deceit in the reading of the Qur’an. I like it better to read according to the recitation of him [i.e. Muhammad] whom I love more than that of Zayd Ibn Thabit."

Bassam claimed the phrase, "The people have been guilty of deceit in the reading of the Qur’an", should be translated "So conceal the manuscripts!"

However even if we had followed Bassam' version, logically it still wouldn't have changed the fact of polemical discrepancies between Uthman and Mas'ud quran.

Because Mas'ud wouldn't have told his disciples to CONCEAL / HIDE their quranic reading unless there hadn't been any threat toward Mas'ud version from Uthman' regime.

Moreover the arabic word ghaluw is also translated as 'defraud' in Quran (S 161:3). So it would either be Uthman who deceitfully changed the quran or Mas'ud who deceitfully concealed the quran.

In this case we ought to have no problem with both versions coz they both prove quran was fabricated by Uthman regime.

Lastly, Nabeel took the translation not from an 'orientalist' but instead from from Syed Moniul Haq a muslim scholar and translator.

And if I may recall not so long ago Paul Williams a 'buddy' of Bassam fully affirmed that Bassam is not a scholar.

Based from PW affirmation ,I guess BS is just full of BS

nacanacazo said...

those jinns sure can explain everything....they even can make the earth flat....

rivan said...

Classic brainwashed Muslim. Shaping and bending reality to conform to the Quran. Knight for stupidity.

Extremista Moderado said...

"When I pointed out that, according to his own sources, entire chapters of the Qur'an were lost (along with lengthy passages and individual verses), he argued that Allah had sent jinn to destroy these portions of the Qur'an because they had been corrupted!"


Let's skip over how a book supposed to be incorruptible and protected by allah became corrupted. jinn can destroy the words of allah now? Really?

Also, no one went to the setting place of the sun? 18:86 clearly states "when he reached the setting-place of the sun". Is the knight of allah lying about what the quran says or is he simply ignorant?

Jonas ola said...

"A jinn could be more powerful than Allah that it can reshape the world?"

Yes, that would be the first question someone should asked when told that. But islamc doctrine discourages critical thinking, so muslims just eat up whatever they're told, no matter how contradictory it may seem. He had a non-muslim asking something that put the quran in a bad position so he desperately grasped at the first explanation he was told. In the end, all that matters is "Allahu Akbar" - allah is greater, so he must prove it to non-muslims, no matter how.

This reminds me of several arguments i had before YT started hiding my comments (funny enough, only on discussions with muslims, when i quote quran and hadiths to counter their points. Go figure...). I've had several muslims telling me that "no one can really prove they aren't" when faced with the statement that shooting stars are missiles used to shoot down Jinns.

Amed ma said...

about the sun setting in water it was from eyesight it appeared unto him that way

Thor said...

He can't be a knight of allah. The highest relationship he can have with allah, is that of master and slave. Therefore his username stinks of shirk.

akairey said...

So his allah was weak to let the jin make the earth round? Not an all powerful allah is he?

Tom said...

What amazes me is that he thinks his response is intellectually sound! muslims are drowning in this "muddy pool" and they keep absorbing more mud!

young steve said...

It just goes to show that you don't need much between your ears to become a Muslim.

This apologist does not seem to be aware that in saying "I am a knight for the almighty Allah" he is in fact honoring the Devil (the father of lies. John 8:44) in the place of God, since, to believe that the earth is flat and that the sun sets in a muddy pool of water is to believe lies.

t uckerton said...

He says that nobody has been to the place where the sun sets. Isn't there a hadith which says Mohammed & Dhul Karnain actually went to the place where the sun sets?

Extremista Moderado said...

Amed ma said...

"about the sun setting in water it was from eyesight it appeared unto him that way"


Secondly, even if it meant that it just appeared so to Alexander the Great, it's not David you have to clarify, it's your co-religionist who said "the sun may in fact set in a pool of water". It's he who believes it. Not me, not David, not Sam. Hisham Sufyan (a.k.a. knight of Allah") is the one defending that the sun does set in a pool of murky water.

Amed ma said...

Extremista Moderado

firstly thats a weak narration

secondly in sahih bukharie you have the same narration but without setting in warm murky water Volume 4, Book 54, Number 421

go to number 421

David Wood said...


Why are you lying? The hadith is classified as Sahih. And so what if Bukhari has another that omits part? That happens all the time in the hadith. Are you saying that if one hadith omits part of what's quoted in another, the longer version is fabricated? If so, I'm going to show you some problems in Bukhari!

In the meantime, show us which hadith scholars you're citing for your "weak hadith defense." (If you can't show us that it's weak, we can only conclude that you're one of these silly people who say "weak hadith" whenever something embarrasses you!)

Extremista Moderado said...

Amed ma said...

"firstly thats a weak narration"

On what basis are you saying that?

"secondly in sahih bukharie you have the same narration but without setting in warm murky water Volume 4, Book 54, Number 421

go to number 421

421 says that the sun rises in the west. Do you really believe the sun rises in the west? Oh, wait, the sun is supposed to rise in the west in the day of resurrection. So, either you're telling me that a correct interpretation (and remember, hadiths are tafsir, so if they contradict the quran the quran takes precedence) of the sun setting in a pool of murky water involves me believing a hadith that contradicts the self-proclaimed crystal clear book and says the sun rises in the west or you're quoting a hadith regarding the day of resurrection and therefore it's pointless to where the sun sets everyday.

And, like i said, i'm not the one who needs to be convinced that the sun does not set in a pool of murky water. That (dubious) honour goes to your co-religionist Hisham Sufyan (a.k.a. knight of Allah").

Amed ma said...

David Wood you are very pathetic you can't handle it when some one tells you the truth and refutes you the hadith is sahih but the part of that the sun is setting in water that part is incorrect there are alot of scholars who recorded this hadith but only one scholar adds the part with sun is setting in water all the other scholars don't have the part with sun is setting in murky water so because of that the hadith is incorrect and look to the tafsir of jalalayn he says that it appeared to Dhul-Qarnayn that the sun was setting in water so you are the only big liar thats the only thing you can do trying to deceive people to not to believe in islam and believing in the false religion of christianity

David Wood said...


I've added a screenshot of the Darussalam edition of Sunan Abu Dawud. Guess what. It's sahih!

David Wood said...

BTW, Amed, why are you claiming that this is simply a repeat of Sunan Abu Dawud 4002, when it's clearly a completely different hadith (and much longer)? And do you think it's more scientifically accurate? LOL! And which one more closely follows the Qur'an?

Narrated by Abu Dhar:
The Prophet asked me at sunset, "Do you know where the sun goes (at the time of sunset)?" I replied, "Allah and His Apostle know better." He said, "It goes (i.e. travels) till it prostrates Itself underneath the Throne and takes the permission to rise again, and it is permitted and then (a time will come when) it will be about to prostrate itself but its prostration will not be accepted, and it will ask permission to go on its course but it will not be permitted, but it will be ordered to return whence it has come and so it will rise in the west. And that is the interpretation of the Statement of Allah: "And the sun Runs its fixed course For a term (decreed). that is The Decree of (Allah) The Exalted in Might, The All-Knowing." (36.38)

Someone's clearly ashamed of his prophet!

Tom said...

I don't understand, this stupidity about the 'sun setting in a muddy pool' is from their very supposedly """clear""", which is clearly a muddled, muddy book, koran"!

So, Why are we even bothering to discuss this mud from the hadith which clearly also from the "muddy pool".

Amed ma said...

you don't understand islam or you just don't want to understand it i don't know which one of the two applies to you but i can't blame you because your religion asks you to not think logically because in christianity 1+1+1=1 even a child who only can count to three would know the answer

when i am talking with a christian it's the same as when i am talking against a wall it's pointless so DW if someone must be ashamed of something then that person is you and you must and are ashamed of your religion christianity BTW i am not ashamed of the greatest man ever lived i am proud to be a follower of him and i hope that you and everyone will follow him too one day and believe in the true one god and that god is Allah

David Wood said...

Wow! Awesome response to clear PROOF that you deliberately lied about your prophet's words!

It's difficult not to convert to Islam with such brilliant reasoning from its followers!

Foolster41 said...


Good to know you're not ashamed of a prophet who robbed people, consummated his marriage with a prepubescent nine year old wife (six when married), had people murdered for criticizing him and ordered a man tortured to get his money. Nope! Nothing to be ashamed of! And if you're still not ashamed of Mohammad, that says a lot about you.

Extremista Moderado said...

Lol @ Amed ma. The quran forbida critical thinking under penalty of being considered an apostate, muhammad had his critics killed and muslims idolize and worship him. Even going by the barbaric 7th century arabia standards muhammad was considered a not so good person to say the least, with all the murder, robbing, rape and enslavement of those who refused to convert to islam. While preaching islam in Mecca, muhammad converted less than 150 people over the course of 13 years. In Medina, he got thousands to join him when he divinely sanctioned robbery and enslavement. And yet, muslims consider him to be a holy-man rather than a warlord. That's such a severe cognitive dissonance that its almost creepy.

Amed ma said...

David Wood you are just pathetic how am i the liar when i showed you proof in sahih bukharie it's the same hadith because it was talking about where the sun is setting and the person who recorded it was the same person plus i showed you the tafsir of jalalayn who said it appeared to dhul qarnain from eyesight if you were correct wouldn't he say in his tafsir that it sets in water and not it appeared to dhul qarnain that the sun is setting in water so this already proof that you are wrong and that i am right

David Wood said...

LOL! You can't cancel one SAHIH narration that you don't like based on another SAHIH narration that is even more silly! Like it or not, your prophet said all kinds of silly things, and both claims about the setting of the sun are beyond absurd.

Also, there's no conflict between the two ahadith. As a good Muslim, you're supposed to believe that the sun sets in a pool, THEN goes and prostrates!

Finally, you can't appeal to Jalalayn to reject a SAHIH narration either. Jalalayn was written EIGHT CENTURIES after Muhammad's time. Of course he had a better grasp of the setting of the sun. But if you're taking Jalalayn as an authority, excellent! According to Jalalayn, the Qur'an plainly declares that the earth is flat!

Qur’an 88:17-20—Do they never reflect on the camels, and how they were created? The heaven, how it was raised on high? The mountains, how they were set down? The earth, how it was made flat?

Tafsir al-Jalalayn on 88:20—As for His words sutihat, ‘laid out flat’, this on a literal reading suggests that the earth is flat, which is the opinion of most of the scholars of the [revealed] Law, and not a sphere as astronomers (ahl al-hay’a) have it, even if this [latter] does not contradict any of the pillars of the Law.

Let me guess, now you're going to reject Jalalayn? LOL!

Tom said...

I am sure the muslim world is looking very hard, "How to blame these "weak SAHIH hadiths" on the Jews, as another Jewish conspiracy!
Because, I am sure even they (muslims), with their "slow minds" must realise the rest of the world is not buying their weak hadith narrative, at all!

Dacritic said...

Tom, on the contrary, I think much of the rest of the world ARE buying into their nonsense. That is why David has a lot of work on his hands still. "Islam never taught such violence. Islam never taught this, Islam never taught that." And the world (except for the people who frequent this blog) is just too lazy to wonder, "Really? If Islam REALLY didn't teach such violence, then why did these things happen?" I was wondering to myself, if Christians commit as many acts of terrorism as Muslims do and so brazenly tell the world they are doing it in the name of their religion, that would make me really examine my faith and what it really teaches.

Greg said...

The translators of Bukhari were a little dishonest when they wrote west and east instead of its setting place and rising place. See endnote 58 here

Also from the link another narration of the same hadith in Sahih Muslim, which betrays a crucial detail:

…Do you know where the sun goes? […] Rise up and go to the place whence you came, and it goes back and continues emerging out from its rising place […] Rise up and emerge out from the place of your setting, and it will rise from the place of its setting…
Sahih Muslim (book 1, no. 297)

Here, “mina matliAAiha” is translated as “from its rising place”, “mina maghribiki” as “from the place of your setting” (so the sun is commanded to go somewhere – it cannot be claimed that this is an idiomatic way of commanding the Earth to rotate), and “mina maghribiha” as “from the place of its setting”, all in reference to alshshamsu, “the sun”. Maghribiha and maghribiki can only mean the sun’s setting-place. The hadith would have just used “mina almaghribi” if the meaning had just been “from the west”.

Anonymous said...

Rise and set of the sun is what we humans view daily. the content of hadith talks about viewing the rising of sun from the west. Even in Bible the language use is rise and set. “The sun rises and the sun sets, and hurries back to where it rises.” (Ecclesiastes 1:5)

In the hadith vol 4, book 54 no 421 it is said if permission is not given after such daily prostration from the sun, then the sun would not appear anymore to rise from the east . It will rise from west. What affects the sun at that time will affect the rotation of earth thus the appearance of sun rising from west.

It is mentioned in Quran 17:44 that of how celestial bodies pray/prostrate or in the case of hadith how does sun goes to underneath throne to prostrate is a knowledge unknown for human. ~~~

Quran 36:38 speaks about fixed course of sun until a stopping point. And 36:39 about returning course of moon. So sun has different orbit. And moon's orbit returning/revolving around earth. You dont see sun mentioned as returning. Followed by next verse 36:40.

It is not for the sun to overtake the moon, nor does the night outstrip the day. They all float, each in an orbit. (Quran 36:40)

We also have hadith about eclipse. So it shows that moon and sun have different orbit. So how does day and night happen, there is a verse about earth moving. So it affirms that earth, moon and sun all have orbits. Only in modern time the path of these orbits are known. Also only in modern time it is known that the movement of cloud being linked with movement of earth

Earth is moving as well "Thou seest the mountains and thinkest them firmly fixed: but they pass like the passing of the clouds: (such is) the artistry of God, who disposes of all things in perfect order: for he is well acquainted with all that ye do. (The Noble Quran, 27:88)"