Friday, June 28, 2013

Muhammad in the Bible? Osama Abdallah vs. Anthony Rogers

According to the Qur'an (7:157), the Bible contains clear prophecies about Muhammad. This claim allows us to test Muhammad, by examining the Bible to see whether the Qur'an is correct. Muslims have had fourteen centuries to come up with their best examples of Biblical prophecies about Muhammad. Let's see how these examples stand up to scrutiny.

36 comments:

Justin said...

I normally agree with you David, but we part paths here.

Muhammed was spoken of and prophesied about in the Scriptures.

See for example Matthew 24:11 and 24:23, Mark 13:22, and 1 John 4:1 just to name a few.

;-)

Justin

Justin said...

Those probably weren't the prophecies the muhammedans had in mind, though.

Anthony Rogers said...

Don't worry Justin, I get to that in the debate. :)

Gov Lee said...

Rogers is just too good. I'm so proud of you.Osama just couldn't make a valid point.

Justin said...

Anthony-

I can't wait to watch it. Will watch it tonight!

Justin

Anthony Rogers said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Arrow said...

Anthony, you are very intelligent.

Anthony Rogers said...

Just a heads up: around the 53:00 minute mark I misspoke and said "Israelite" when I meant to say "brother". Osama claimed that the "brother" of "Jacob/Israel" in Obadiah 1:8 is a reference to Ishmael, thus demonstrating that the word "brother" can be used for an Ishmaelite in relation to Israelites. I made the point that the passage is referring to the Edomites who descended from Esau, Jacob's actual brother. It is NOT a reference to Ishmael or his descendants.

Anthony Rogers said...

Arrow,

Osama has a way of making people appear that way.

Henri-Paul Indiogine said...

Q7:157 does NOT state that Muhammad is in the Torah and the Gospel. The person is not named. It is an (unfounded) assumption that this messenger is Muhammad, but it is NOT in the text.

akairey said...

once again, OSAMA must go back and read the OLD TESTAMENT with a jewish dictionary, then read the NEW TESTAMENT with a greek dictionary, and reread the Quran & HADITH with OBJECTIVE LENSES. ONCE he done with that, LEARN how to hold his tongue and temper when trying to debate, he NOT holding his tongue & temper is a reflection of the 10% of the 1.6 billion that are causing all these problems in the world. Since 2000-2010, according to RAND corporation, 96% of the terrorism is caused by ISLAMISTS! Back to Osama, tends to take verses out of the Bible to try to suit it to his claim, but then goes back and say that most of the Jewish language in the bible are mistranslations of the Phoenician dead language. If that's the case WHY refer to the BIBLE at all if it's faulty and if it is, PROVIDE evidence to the claim!!!

Anthony Rogers said...

Who do you think it is, Henri? Baha'u'llah?

Henri-Paul Indiogine said...

Anthony wrote:

Who do you think it is, Henri? Baha'u'llah?


Nope, the obvious answer to who Q7:157 is about is Jesus the Nazarene. Anyone even vaguely familiar with the gospel would know who is "relieving them of their loads". See Matthew 11. The Muslims do not see this because they do not give any value to the Bible. However, a Christian does not have such an excuse.

Baron Eddie said...

Maybe I missed the part where Osama Abdallah quote the prophet of Islam

Mohammad saying "these prophesies is about me"

Is Osama trying to be like Khadija and tell Mohammad that he is a prophet!?

I also missed the part where he quote Ibn Abbas/Sahih Muslim/Sahih al bukhary etc ...

Is this his opinion?



created4el said...

Thank you Anthony (and Osama if you are reading this)... that was very illuminating...

It is too bad that Osama is only able to spew out Bible verses and then make claims about them as if that proves his claim... (sorry Osama if that sounds bad... but all you did was make quote after quote making claims but a debate isn't about making so many claims that by sheer volume you prevent your opponent from responding to them and thus being able to claim he didn't refute you... it is about making a claim, backing it up with your proof and allowing the opponent to refute that claim if he can... but you didn't do that... were you afraid that your proof could stand up to Anthony's refutation?)

It is also too bad that Osama can't be honest with the Bible text... he claims over and over again that he knows more than everybody else and that everybody else has a bias... (Osama, are you sure you aren't the one reading the bible through rose colored glasses?) but then if he were, he'd have to give up Islam...

I was feeling quite sorry for Osama who seemed confident that he could hit a home run and then be done after his opening statement but when that didn't happen he went back to the batters box to see if he could get another shot at it... only problem was that he seemed to be playing the wrong game... either that or Osama really likes herrings... red ones in particular...

What I am truly impressed with is how Muslims in general can massage their scripture, like the area where sperm originates and then justify the correctness of it by contorting the reading of it... the fact that they need to do that ought to tell them that there is something wrong with their scripture... it isn't as mubeen as it claims... or that maybe it is just wrong... that really ought to be a red flag... but not even that deters the faithful Muslim...

rivan said...

Sam, Edward, Anthony, Louis
Ive seen all the debates in the order they were done. I have to say, it was getting increasingly frustrating to watch Osama debate. I havent been so frustrated with anyone in a long time. At one point I felt he was just doing this for free publicity. His rebuts were horrendous. He thinks if he just says something however asinine or completely off topic that qualifies as a refutation! Great job you guys. May the Lord bless you and protect you.

Derek Adams said...

All the tafseer and greatest scholars say 7:157 is referring to Mohammed. So it's relevant for Muslims. So Rogers is all good to use it. Ironically there is no consensus or ijma with those same scholars regarding the contents of the Torah and Injeel. But since Osama presupposes it's referring to the Bible, then at least Anthony and Osama have some common ground.

Sidenote: Osama can't possibly say the Torah and Injeel at the time of Mohammed referring to Mohammed are the "original Torah and Injeel" as that would show they still exist and the Bible is uncorrupted. So the Quran here must be referring to the corrupted Bible per Osama's reasoning. If the Quran can refer to the corrupted Bible STILL as "torah and injeel" without ANY qualification that this is the currently distorted text, the Quranic author has made no serious commitment to distinguish between what is false and true and only incriminated himself even further by increasing the mas amount of confusion! In fact it's the LACK OF DETAIL in the Quran that makes it so obsolete and useless. Imagine if the Quran had more context like many hadith? We might actually have a contender for something being cogent and coherent.

The Quran alone does mention Mohammed here in this passage. Probably not Rogers cup of tea here, but I agree with Spencer here that it's very dubious and ambiguous as to whether Mohammed in the Quran is really the Mohammed in history, or a religious figure, a messiah or even Jesus.

william t said...

Osama, by you claiming the prophet coming from the east, and that Babylon is Saudi Arabia, i wonder if you can help me establish who is the mystery Babylon in revelation 17, that promotes a false religious ideology “Then the angel carried me away in the Spirit into a wilderness. There I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast that was covered with blasphemous names and had seven heads and ten horns. The woman was dressed in purple and scarlet, and was glittering with gold, precious stones and pearls. She held a golden cup in her hand, filled with abominable things and the filth of her adulteries. The name written on her forehead was a mystery: babylon the great , the mother of prostitutes and of the abominations of the earth. I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of God’s holy people, the blood of those who bore testimony to Jesus.
Other references to Mecca in the Quran (6:92, 42:5) call it Umm al-Qura, meaning "mother of all settlements.
Another name for Mecca, or the wilderness and mountains surrounding it, according to Arab and Islamic tradition, is Faran or Pharan, referring to the Desert of Paran mentioned in the Old Testament.
Which mystery Babylon religion has/is killing Christians?
Here is an example of an abomination that God makes plain to the Ezekiel 8.15 Then He said to me, “Have you seen this, O son of man? Turn again, you will see greater abominations than these.” So He brought me into the inner court of the Lord’s house; and there, at the door of the temple of the Lord, between the porch and the altar, were about twenty-five men with their backs toward the temple of the Lord and their faces toward the east, and they were worshiping the sun toward the east
Which mystery religion turns their backs towards the temple in Jerusalem and bow their faces towards the east(based on your assumption Arabia is in the east)?
Sahih bukhari Volume 6, Book 60, Number 13 :Narrated by Al-Bara The Prophet prayed facing Bait-ulMaqdis (i.e. Jerusalem) for sixteen or seventeen months but he wished that his Qibla would be the Ka'ba (at Mecca). (So Allah Revealed (2.144) and he offered 'Asr prayers(in his Mosque facing Ka'ba at Mecca) and some people prayed with him.
Which mystery religion promotes “abominable things and the filth of her adulteries”? maybe sam shamoun could narrow this down for you, or here are some clues from the bible
Ezekiel 8:17 And He said to me, “Have you seen this, O son of man? Is it a trivial thing to the house of Judah to commit the abominations which they commit here? For they have filled the land with violence;
Matthew 24:15 "So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand)
Which mystery religion has built a religious building in the holiest place of the Jews?
Which mystery religion centre of worship is dressed with opulence, wealth and grandeur? Heres a clue: Northern expansion of the mosque began in August 2011 and is expected to be completed in 1.5 years. The area of the mosque will be expanded from the current 356,000 m2 (3,830,000 sq ft) to 400,000 m2 (4,300,000 sq ft). A new gate named after King Abdullah will be built together with two new minarets, bringing their total to 11. The cost of the project is $10.6-billion

william t said...

Even if we were not convinced yet that this is Mecca, the angel speaking to John narrows it down.
This calls for a mind with wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains(kingdoms) on which the woman sits. They are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; but when he does come, he must remain for only a little while. The beast who once was, and now is not, is an eighth king. He is one of the seven and is going to his destruction
The 5 kingdoms that had fallen that pertain to the rule of the middle east/ Israel were
EGYPT KINGDOM, ASSYRIA KINGDOM, BABYLON KINGDOM, MEDO-PERSIA KINGDOM, GREEK KINGDOM . The one that was ruling during John’s revelation were the ROMAN KINGDOM. Which kingdom came after this...yes you got it the ottoman kingdom and the eight kingdom are the 10 countries that try to revive this ottoman empire. This really narrows this down.
Which mystery religion has absorbed all the previous idolatrous worship of the previous kingdoms of the middle east?
Acts 19:34 But when they found out that he was a Jew, all with one voice cried out for about two hours, “Great is Diana(Diana ahkbar) of the Ephesians!” And when the city clerk had quieted the crowd, he said: “Men of Ephesus, what man is there who does not know that the city of the Ephesians is temple guardian of the great goddess Diana, and of the image(meteorite) which fell down from heaven.
there is no denying that the Black Stone was one among many stones and idols venerated at the Ka’aba by the pre-Islamic pagans. The Black Stone was kissed during pre-Islamic pagan worship. Though Muhammad threw out 360 other objects at the Ka’aba, he retained this Black Stone and continued the practice of kissing it. It is this same stone that the pre-Islamic pagans once kissed, that Muslims kiss today when visiting Mecca.
Nehemiah 4. 1 sanballat’s (the adversary of the Jews)name was a derivative name from the god allat which was the feminine name of allah, which both derived from Ba’al, and not Elohim.
Have ye thought upon Al-Lat and Al-‘Uzzá
and Manāt, the third, the other?
These are the exalted cranes, whose intercession is hoped for. Oops sorry, shouldn’t of added this, as this was what satan tricked Muhammed to recite
Judges 8:21 So Zebah and Zalmunna said, “Rise yourself, and kill us; for as a man is, so is his strength.” So Gideon arose and killed Zebah and Zalmunna, and took the crescent ornaments that were on their camels’ necks. This story is alluded to in psalms 83 when Messiah returns to judge the nations that came against Israel.

william t said...

revelation 16.18-19 predicts this mystery Babylon will be destroyed by an earthquake. Even satan who knows biblical prophecy has prepared this mystery Babylon about this destruction.
Huzaifa bin Usaid Al-Ghifari reported: Allah's Messenger came to us all of a sudden as we were talking. He said: "What are you discussing?" We said: "We are talking about the Last Hour." Thereupon, he said: "It will not come until you see ten signs before it, He made a mention of the Smoke, the Dajjal (Anti-Christ), the Daabba, the Rising of the Sun from the West, the Descent of Jesus Son of Mary م (from Heaven), the emergence of Ya'juj and Ma'juj (Gog & MaGog), and Khusuf (Land Collapses or Landslides) will occur in three places: one in the East, one in the West and one in Arabian Peninsula. At the end, a Fire would burn forth from Yemen (or from Aden according to Ahmad), which would drive people to the place of their final assembly (before they get resurrected by God)." (Sahih Muslim, Musnad Ahmad)
Heres what is written about Saudi Arabia. The region lies on a fault line, according to SGS, which declined to comment on current magma levels, but newspapers reported that in the past few days magma levels had risen to 4 km (2.5 miles) below the surface from 8 km.Fears of an eruption in dormant volcanoes in al-Ais have sent panic stricken residents voluntarily fleeing to the holy city of Medina and Yanbu last week.The population of al-Ais, an ancient resting place for caravans travelling between the western and southern cities of the Arabian Peninsula and Syria, is estimated at around 60,000 people.
JEDDAH] Western regions of Saudi Arabia may be at risk from an unusual type of earthquake caused by failed volcanic eruptions, according to a team of Saudi and US scientists. They analysed some of the thousands of mini-earthquakes that hit the region in spring 2009, after a volcano eruption failed but still forced magma through rock up to around two kilometres below the surfaces, causing earthquakes.
Although most of the lava fields — areas where lava from a volcano flows — that caused Saudi Arabia's recent earthquakes are in uninhabited areas, the city of Medina is spreading into one such area, and other cities, such as Nairobi, Kenya, are close to similar regions. Cynthia Ebinger, a geophysicist from the University of Rochester, New York, who has studied failed volcanic eruptions in East Africa, told Nature: "We need a reassessment of volcanic hazards throughout East Africa and the Red Sea area." Between April and June 2009, more than 30,000 earthquakes caused by a failed volcano eruption struck an area of northwest Saudi Arabia that was considered seismically inactive. One earthquake, measuring 5.7 on the Richter scale, led to the evacuation of 40,000 people from the town of Al Ays near Medina.
revelation 18.24 In her was found the blood of prophets and of God’s holy people, of all who have been slaughtered on the earth.”
According to david’s terror update islam has been responsible for 21141 terror attacks since 9/11. Probably by the time you read this, that statistic will no longer be accurate.
Please, please osama listen to the divine advice of Revelation 18:4-5 And I heard another voice from heaven saying, “Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues. 5 For her sins have reached[a] to heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities.
Please osama listen to the advice of the writer to the Hebrews: Today, if you will hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion

Tom said...

Bro Rogers,

You nailed it when you said that muhammad said he can be found in the Torah & Gospels.
That means the 5 books of Moses and the Gospel!

Osama was hammered when he tried looking for muhhhamd in Deutronomy, he did not go into the Gospels!

Osama spent all his time on Isaiah which amazingly is not listed in the koran at all as a prophet!
Think Gabriel forgot to tell muhammad about a Prophet named Isaiah!

Osama, when Rogers was talking about miracles he was talking about the Prophet that will be Like Moses will perform miracles nothing to do with the your imaginery scientific mirales of the koran.

God the Father appeared to God the Son during His baptistism and God the Father appeared to Christ during Transfiguration!


You are such sad case Osmama, you said The Bible is corrupt yet you appeal to it to find muhhamad.. and you utterly failed, there no such arab in the Bible!

Henri-Paul Indiogine said...

Derek Adams wrote:

All the tafseer and greatest scholars say 7:157 is referring to Mohammed.


Yes, I know, but that is not the point. The point is whether Q7:157 is about Muhammad. Tafseer are not infallible.

My contention is that it is not. The verse itself and context does not mention Muhammad. In addition, the verse is a reference to Matthew 11.

The best inference in my opinion is that it is about Jesus the Nazarene, the prophet of the common people.

Anthony Rogers said...

http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Contra/qbhc03.html

Henri-Paul Indiogine said...

Anthony Rogers posted:

http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Contra/qbhc03.html


Thanks for contributing this link. You made an observation that I overlooked.

Q7:157 is about those who follow this unnamed messenger/prophet. These people are those who have both the OT and NT. As 1 + 1 = 2. These people must be the Christians and the messenger/prophet that the Christians follow is obviously Jesus the Nazarene. Jesus is certainly in the NT and according to the Christians He is also prophesied in the OT.

Unknown said...

I think I am wasting my time listening to the scientific evidence of Osama. Cant Digest!

Zack_Tiang said...

Honestly... just.... terrible.... I am saddened whenever I see a friend quote from Osama as though he is a credible source of intelligent materials... and then compared his work with that of Answering-Islam.org's.

J.J. Andrews said...

Osama Abdallah said: "The Holy Qur'an mentions that the Arabs were fresh and ready for a new prophet. They had no previous scriptures and no previous prophets."

If the Arabs had no previous scripture, what exactly was revealed to Ishmael (S. 2:136) and which group of people benefited from it? Also, if the Arabs had no previous prophets, then to which group of people were Ishmael, Hud, Salih, and Shu'eyb sent?

Sam said...

Anthony and co., I co-write a piece with Jochen that argued along the same lines that Henri did, namely, that Q. 7:157 is actually about Jesus. Check it out and tell me what you guys think:

http://www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/unlettered_prophet.htm

Sam said...

co-write should have been co-wrote.

David Wood said...

I wouldn't have any objection to claiming that the phrase went back to an earlier (e.g. Syriac) source referring to Jesus, and that this source was subsequently plagiarized by Muhammad to refer to himself. But I think that, in it's Islamic context, it's referring to Muhammad. (Similarly, I have no objection to someone claiming that "houris," in a pre-Muslim context, referred to grapes. But we all know what "houris" meant when Muhammad used the term.) Based on the Principle of Embarrassment, the stories about Muhammad's illiteracy in the Hadith have to be early, so 7:157 fits quite comfortably with this view of Muhammad.

Anthony Rogers said...

That is what I was thinking, David: whatever it originally meant, in its final canonical form it is intended ti speak of Muhammad. That is what gives rise to the ambiguity of the pergectly clear Qur'an and thus the ability to argue contrary views.

Sam, I will go read it right now.

Anthony Rogers said...

Edit: ti = to; pergectly = perfectly

Sam said...

I have no problem admitting that Muhammad is the intended referent of Q. 7:157, especially in its final canonical form as Anthony put it. However, the word ummi does not mean illiterate, but someone who is unlettered, meaning uneducated in respect to the contents of the previous Scriptures. This is a point which many scholars concur with, including Quran alone Muslims. It is only due to later tradition that the term ummi was taken to mean that Muhammad was illiterate for the sole purpose of bolstering his credibility since there is no way that an illiterate man could produce an Arabic literary masterpiece the size of the Quran unless God was inspiring him.




carol_7 said...

Osama said that the phrase "Virgin Daughter of Babylon" refers to Islam since they had no previous scriptures or prophets, and no previous religion except for paganism. Apart from paganism hardly qualifying as virginity, the only reference I could find for "the Virgin Daughter of Babylon" is in Isaiah 47, and from that chapter it looks like Islam is in for some serious judgement by the Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; but what’s more, the whole chapter eerily befits Islam!

cheryl_maree said...

I just watched the debate and I think Osama should really, and I mean really go home for a while and watch other debates. He did not stick to the topic and was all over the place as most muslims are, and trust me I know I have had a couple in my life for 4 years now. Osama would say something and thats it believe it's the truth, well sorry Osama you might get the muslims to follow that crap but Christians aren't buying it, you really need to back up what you say, which you did not at all. I think Anthony was very professional and did a awesome job!! He stuck right on the topic although Osama tried to rattle him and do a side step show, but was not successful because Anthony did not bite. Anthony won hands down!

Trinity325 said...

Anthony pretty much had this debate in the bag. I don't know why Osama went on a tangent about science when that wasn't even the topic.