Friday, March 29, 2013

The Qur’an vs. the Qur’an on the Crucifixion of Jesus

Jesus’ death by crucifixion is one of the best-established facts of history. Even non-Christian critical scholars admit this. For instance, Bart Ehrman declares: “One of the most certain facts of history is that Jesus was crucified on orders of the Roman prefect of Judea, Pontius Pilate.” Similarly, the atheist New Testament scholar Gerd Lüdemann says that “Jesus’ death as a consequence of crucifixion is indisputable.”

Nevertheless, many of our Muslim friends only like to quote critical scholars when they're contradicting the Bible, not when they're contradicting the Qur’an. So let’s toss all of history aside and go wherever the Qur’an leads.

The Qur’an commands Christians to judge by the Gospel. Indeed, the Qur’an declares that we are rebels if we refuse to judge by the Gospel:

Qur’an 5:47—Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel.

So we open the Gospel and read about Jesus predicting his death by crucifixion:

Mark 10:32-34—They were on the road going up to Jerusalem, and Jesus was walking on ahead of them; and they were amazed, and those who followed were fearful. And again He took the twelve aside and began to tell them what was going to happen to Him, saying, “Behold, we are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be delivered to the chief priests and the scribes; and they will condemn Him to death and will hand Him over to the Gentiles. They will mock Him and spit on Him, and scourge Him and kill Him, and three days later He will rise again.”

Obviously, since the Qur’an commands us to judge by the Gospel, and since the Gospel affirms Jesus’ death by crucifixion, we must conclude that Jesus died by crucifixion. Otherwise, we’re in rebellion against Allah.

So far, so good. But then we open the Qur’an and find that Jesus didn’t die by crucifixion at all. Instead, Allah simply tricked people into believing that Jesus died:

Qur’an 4:157-158—They said (in boast), “We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah”—But they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not—Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.

Here we’re commanded not to believe that Jesus died by crucifixion. So what should we believe? On the one hand, we can believe the Qur’an, which commands us to judge by the Gospel, and therefore commands us to believe that Jesus died by crucifixion. On the other hand, we can believe the Qur’an, which tells us that Jesus’ death on the cross was a hoax perpetrated by Allah.

Confused yet? Perhaps one of our Muslim readers can tell us whether we should agree with the Qur’an or with the Qur’an.

31 comments:

Samatar Mohamed said...

Bassam already addressed Surah 5:47 in his refutation against Dr. James white a few days ago. Here is the links to the exchange.

Bassam first article:

http://www.call-to-monotheism.com/james_white_and_surah_5__verse_47__willful_ignorance_or_a_severe_memory_lapse_

Dr. James White response:

http://aomin.org/aoblog/index.php?itemid=5410

Bassam's response:

http://www.call-to-monotheism.com/response_to_james_white_on_surah_5__ayah_47

The argument has already been refuted David.

Henri-Paul Indiogine said...

There is no contradiction. Q4:157 states that the Jews did not kill Jesus. The NT states that the Romans killed Jesus. So, where is the contradiction?

David Wood said...

Samatar,

I was expecting you to come with the "Whatever a Muslim says in response to an argument is a decisive refutation, even if it's completely ridiculous" approach.

Let me see if I've got this straight.

(1) When Allah asks why the Jews are bothering to come to Muhammad when they already have the Torah (5:43), he really means that they should judge by the Qur'an and ignore the Torah.

(2) When Allah commands Christians to judge by the Gospel (5:47), he really means that we should judge by the Qur'an and that we should ignore the Gospel.

(3) When Allah tells Muhammad to go to people who've been reading the book before him so that he can confirm his revelations (10:94), he really means that the people of the book should come to him in order to confirm our revelations.

(4) When Allah says that we find Muhammad's name in the Torah and the Gospel (7:157), he really means that we find his name in the Qur'an, since the Torah and the Gospel have been corrupted.

(5) When the Qur'an says that no one can change Allah's words (18:27; 6:114-115), it really means that Allah's words have been changed countless times by countless people.

(6) When Muhammad swears on a copy of the Torah that it's the Word of God (Sunan Abu Dawud), he really means that the Torah, like all other revelations prior to the Qur'an, were hopelessly corrupted.

Does that about sum things up? One further question. If Allah constantly means something completely different from what he says, why does he brag about always being clear?

It's funny how Muslims are completely willing to radically reinterpret clear verses when they're defending Islam against an argument. But when Ahmadis reinterpret any verse of the Qur'an, suddenly Muslims declare that no reinterpretation is acceptable, and that Allah means exactly what he says. Hypocrisy is the core of Muslim apologetics!

David Wood said...

Henri-Paul,

I guess you missed the part where Allah raised Jesus to himself. Jesus wasn't killed at all, according to Islam. Are you saying that you don't see this as being at odds with the claim that Romans killed Jesus?

Henri-Paul Indiogine said...

David Wood said:

I guess you missed the part where Allah raised Jesus to himself. Jesus wasn't killed at all, according to Islam. Are you saying that you don't see this as being at odds with the claim that Romans killed Jesus?

================================

Hmmm .... I think that the NT sais that Jesus ascended into heaven to sit at the right hand of the Father.

Plus my post is not about the claims of Islam. There are many claims of Islam some good and some (many) wacky. The point is whether Q4:157-158 contradicts the NT. So far I have not seen any evidence that it does. The Jews did not kill Jesus and Jesus ascended into heaven. Again, where is the contradiction?

Samatar Mohamed said...

@David

Did you even bother to read the articles? Well, lets see what surah 5:47 says.

Surah 5:47

"Let the people of the Gospel Judge by what Allah hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel."

The verse doesn't tell the christians to judge by all the gospels that they have. It says to "judge by what Allah (swt) has revealed therein." Now how does a christian do that? He or she does that by using the Quran as a Muhaymin (Overseer) of what the bible has. We do not believe that God revealed Mathew, Mark, Luke, or John. We believe that Allah (swt) revealed the Injeel to Jesus, but some truths are still remaining in those gospels you have with you today. I recommend you read the refutation (which I believe to be solid), and then refute it. Your good friend Dr, White is not doing so well refuting Bassam, You should give it a try and help him out. Maybe let Shamoun join in and you will have your own Big Three like the Miami Heat.

P.S. I'm still waiting for you response to Bassam, who refuted your video a month ago titled " Who killed Muhammad (pbuh)".

Here is the link again:

http://www.call-to-monotheism.com/prophet_muhammad__peace_be_upon_him__and_the_taking_of_poison

Michael Sexton said...

If you want to solve all argument ask "what God?" you read a book and guess. God told one man go and another man to stay put. God told one man to kill and another man do not kill. What did a living God say to you? If nothing then you should have a measure of humility and honestly admit that God does not want to talk to you.

Zack_Tiang said...

The Quran said regarding the crucifixion, "They are full of doubt and conjecture."

Indeed, the Muslims are. Allah has deceived them about the crucifixion.
They have nothing but conjecture and doubt regarding the crucifixion of Christ.

Sam said...

It is truly sad to see Samatar appeal to Zawadi's garbage. Not only have they been refuted over and over again:

http://www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/muhaymin2.htm

http://answering-islam.org/Responses/Osama/zawadi_what_torah.htm

http://answering-islam.org/authors/shamoun/rebuttals/zawadi/ignorance_arrogance.html

http://www.truthnet.org/islam/source.htm

http://answering-islam.org/Responses/Saifullah/borrow.htm

http://answering-islam.org/Quran/Sources/cradle.html

http://answering-islam.org/authors/shamoun/rebuttals/zawadi/mo_borrower1.html

http://answering-islam.org/authors/shamoun/rebuttals/zawadi/mo_borrower2.html

http://answering-islam.org/Responses/Osama/zawadi_abraham_ur.htm

http://answering-islam.org/authors/masihiyyen/rebuttals/zawadi/infancy_gospels.html

http://answering-islam.org/authors/shamoun/rebuttals/ally/gospels.html

http://answering-islam.org/authors/shamoun/rebuttals/zawadi/gods_words_unchangable.html

http://answering-islam.org/authors/shamoun/rebuttals/zawadi/gods_words_unchangable_r1.html

http://answering-islam.org/authors/shamoun/rebuttals/zawadi/gods_words_unchangable_r2.html

http://answering-islam.org/Responses/Osama/zawadi_mhd_torah.htm

http://answering-islam.org/authors/shamoun/rebuttals/zawadi/mo_prophets_bowed.html

http://answering-islam.org/Responses/Osama/zawadi_mhd_duplicity.htm

http://answering-islam.org/Responses/Osama/zawadi_corruption_prostration.htm

http://answering-islam.org/authors/shamoun/rebuttals/zawadi/ibn_qayyim_revisited.html

http://answering-islam.org/authors/shamoun/rebuttals/zawadi/torah_quran.html

http://answering-islam.org/Quran/Bible/ar_razi_scriptures.html

http://answering-islam.org/Responses/Osama/zawadi_q10_94.htm

http://answering-islam.org/Responses/Osama/zawadi_q15_9.htm

My friend Dk-man of answering abraham is already writing a thorough rebuttal to Zawadi's recent trash. If this your best then you are really in trouble, and so is Islam. So make sure to pass on that bit of info to your taghut Zawadi.

Samatar, do yourself a favor and stop embarrassing yourself by quoting Zawadi. At least you won't destroy your credibility and cause people to question your ability to think rationally and objectively.

Sam said...

Samatar,

Just to show you how embarrassing Zawadi's rebuttals are, he appeals to following hadith to prove that the previous Scriptures have been abrogated:

http://dailyhadith.adaptivesolutionsinc.com/hadith/I-Swear-Musa-would-Follow-Me.htm

What makes this rather laughable is that Zawadi failed to see how this report backfires against him since it affirms that Muhammad thought that the Torah remained uncorrupt!

Here is the report in question:

Narrated Jabir ibn Abdullah
Umar ibn al-Khattab brought to Allah’s Messenger (peace be upon him) A COPY OF THE TORAH and said: Allah's Messenger, This is a copy of the Torah. He (Allah's Messenger) kept quiet and he (Umar) began to read it. The (colour) of the face of Allah's Messenger underwent a change, whereupon AbuBakr said: Would that your mother mourn you, don't you see the face of Allah's Messenger? Umar saw the face of Allah's Messenger and said: I seek refuge with Allah from the wrath of Allah and the wrath of His Messenger. We are well pleased with Allah as Lord, with Islam as religion, and with Muhammad as Prophet. Whereupon Allah's Messenger said: By Him in Whose hand is the life of Muhammad, even if Moses were to appear before you and you were to follow him, leaving me aside, you would certainly stray into error; for if (Moses) were alive (now), and he found my prophetical ministry, he would have definitely followed me.
Transmitted by Darimi. (Tirmidhi Hadith, Number 69; ALIM CD-ROM Version: http://www.alim.org/library/hadith/TIR/69)

Pay close attention to the fact that Muhammad didn’t attack the textual veracity of the Torah, which is what we would have expected him to do if he didn’t believe that the Holy Bible wasn't preserved. Rather, Muhammad’s whole issue with Umar reading the Book of Moses is that the Quranic legislation has replaced the Mosaic Scripture, and Muslims are therefore obligated to follow Muhammad’s rules as opposed to those given by the previous prophets and messengers.

Here is another one which affirms this point of muhammad believing that the the previous Scriptures remained uncorrupt:


Narrated Ziyad ibn Labid
Allah's Messenger spoke of something and said: It will happen when knowledge will be no more. I said: Allah's Messenger, how will knowledge vanish despite the fact that we will be reciting the Qur'an and teaching its recitation to our children and our children will teach its recitation to their children up to the Day of Resurrection? Thereupon he said: Ziyad, may your mother weep over you. I was of the opinion that you were one of those who have greatest understanding of religion in Medina. Do these Jews and Christians not recite the Torah and the Bible but not act according to what is contained in them?
Transmitted by Ahmad, Ibn Majah, Tirmidhi. Tirmidhi Hadith, Number 69; ALIM CD-ROM Version: http://www.alim.org/library/hadith/TIR/105)

Notice how Muhammad says that Muslims will be like Jews and Christians who, although still possessing and reading the Torah and the Bible, do not act according to what is taught in them.

So much for the arguments of your hero Zawadi.

kenmehms said...

I urge you all to read Zawadi's so called refutations as pleaded by samatar. Desperate and hilarious is all I can say. It's embarrassing the level the muhammadens stoop to in trying to find some kind of response.

They truly are blinded. My the veil be lifted from their eyes in Jesus mighty name.

Sam said...

This is for Henir-Paul. Let us see what the NT says about the jews killing Jesus:

"For you, brothers, became imitators of the churches of God in Christ Jesus that are in Judea. For you suffered the same things from your own countrymen as they did from THE JEWS, WHO KILLED BOTH THE LORD JESUS and the prophets, and drove us out, and displease God and oppose all mankind by hindering us from speaking to the Gentiles that they might be saved—so as always to fill up the measure of their sins. But wrath has come upon them at last!" 1 Thessalonians 2:14-16

It seems that you are at odds with Paul. Therefore, time for you to rethink your position.

cheryl_maree said...

@Samatar
Where is the Injeel, I would like to read it???


christian ferger said...

Henri Paul

In the Bible Jesus died, while in the Quran Jesus didnt die on the cross. Did you read at all ?

And Yes, Jesus did ascend into heaven in the NT too, but that was after he raise from dead and spent time with his disciples.



You got it now?

cheryl_maree said...

@samatar
I must be really confused because I thought God's words could NOT be corrupted, so please explain how they ended up being that way.

Sam said...

Here is another goody for Samatar. According to Q. 2:113, the Jews and Christians of Muhammad's time are said to be reading the Scripture revealed by God:

The Jews say: "The Christians are not on the right track," and the Christians say: "It is the Jews who are not on the right track," yet both read their Holy Books (Torah or Gospel). And those who have no knowledge (the pagan Arabs) say like to what both of them say; so Allah will judge between them in their dispute on the Day of Judgment. Farook Malik http://www.islamawakened.com/quran/2/st32.htm

Here is another version:

"Jews say, "The Christians have nothing to stand upon. And Christians say, "Jews have nothing to stand upon." YET THEY ALL READ THE BIBLE..." Bilal Muhammad http://www.islamawakened.com/quran/2/st49.htm

Now notice how Ibn Kathir and al-Jalalayn exegete this verse:

(The Jews said that the Christians follow nothing (i.e. are not on the right religion); and the Christians said that the Jews follow nothing (i.e. are not on the right religion); though they both recite the Scripture.)

Allah explained the disputes, hatred and stubbornness that the People of the Book have towards each other. Muhammad bin Ishaq reported that Ibn `Abbas said, "When a delegation of Christians from Najran came to the Messenger of Allah, the Jewish rabbis came and began arguing with them before the Messenger of Allah . Rafi` bin Huraymilah said, `You do not follow anything,' and he reiterated his disbelief in Jesus and the Injil. Then a Christian man from Najran's delegation said to the Jews, `Rather, you do not follow anything,' and he reiterated his rejection of Musa's prophethood and his disbelief in the Torah. So Allah revealed the Ayah…

(The Jews said that the Christians follow nothing (i.e. are not on the right religion); and the Christians said that the Jews follow nothing (i.e. are not on the right religion); though they both recite the Scripture.)”

Allah made it clear that each party READ THE AFFIRMATION of what they claimed to reject IN THEIR BOOK. Consequently, the Jews disbelieve in Jesus, even though THEY HAVE THE TORAH in which Allah took their Covenant by the tongue of Moses to believe in Jesus. Also, the Gospel contains Jesus' assertion that Moses' prophethood and the Torah came from Allah. Yet, each party disbelieved in what the other party HAD. (Tafsir Ibn Kathir: http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=324)

Ibn Kathir clearly states that the Jews of Muhammad's day "HAVE the Torah", and that both groups disbelieved in what the other party had, presupposes that the Jews and Christians possessed the original, uncorrupt revelations which God had given to both Moses and Jesus. There is simply no way around this.

More in the next post.

Sam said...

This is a continuation from the previous thread on Q. 2:113.

Now here is what the two Jalals said in regards to this text:

The Jews say, ‘The Christians stand on nothing’, that can be used as support [for their claims], and they rejected Jesus; and the Christians say, ‘The Jews stand on nothing’, that can be used as support [for their claims], and they rejected Moses; yet they, both groups, RECITE THE SCRIPTURE, REVEALED TO THEM: in the Scripture of the Jews there is the confirmation of Jesus, and in that of the Christians there is the confirmation of Moses (yatlūna’l-kitāba, ‘they recite the Scripture’: the sentence is a circumstantial qualifier). Thus, in the way that these have said, the ignorant, from among the Arabs and others, say the like of what these say (this last phrase [mithla qawlihim, ‘the like of what they say’] is the explication of dhālika, ‘that [way]’): that is to say, to every person of religion they would say, ‘You have no basis’; God shall decide between them on the Day of Resurrection regarding their differences, in religion and will admit the confirmer into Paradise and the falsifier into the Fire. (Tafsir al-Jalalayn: http://altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=74&tSoraNo=2&tAyahNo=113&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2)

So according to these scholars the Jews were reciting the Scripture revealed to them which confirmed what the other possessed, i.e. the Scripture of the Jews confirmed the coming of Jesus, and the Scripture of the Christians confirmed the prophethood of Moses. However, Samatar and Zawadi want us to believe that what this verse really means is that the Jews and Christians were reciting corrupted, unreliable scriptures which no longer accurately reflected what the original revelations taught, even though the verse in question says absolutely nothing about textual corruption!

Yep, I am convinced that Zawadi is a brilliant apologist who is one of the most rationally minded Muslims doing dawah...............NOT!!!! :-)

Sam said...

And now another goodies from Umar:



(97, 98) These two verses were sent down, as Wahidi relates, on the authority of Ibn 'Abbas, when the Jews of Medina came to the Prophet saying, "We shall ask you concerning certain matters. If you answer us truthfully, we will follow you. Tell us who of the angels comes down to you, for there is no prophet but that an angel comes to him from his Lord with the [charge] of apostleship and revelation. Who is your angel?" He answered, "He is Gabriel." They said, "He is the one who comes down with strife and battle; he is our enemy. Had you said, ‘Michael,’ the angel who comes down with rain and mercy, we would have followed you" (Wahidi, p. 26). Wahidi further relates on the authority of al-Sha'bi that 'Umar ibn al-Khattab said, "I used to frequent the Jews in their schools WHEN THEY STUDIED THE TORAH AND MARVEL AT HOW THE TORAH CONCURS WITH THE QUR'AN AND HOW THE QUR'AN CONCURS WITH THE TORAH. They said to me, 'O 'Umar, there is no one dearer to us than you.' 'Why?' I asked. 'Because,' they said, 'you come to us and enjoy our company.' I answered, 'I come to marvel at how THE BOOKS OF GOD CONFIRM EACH OTHER.'…” (Mahmoud M. Ayoub, The Qur'an and Its Interpreters [State University of New York Press (SUNY), Albany, NY 1984], Volume One, p. 127; bold and capital emphasis ours)

Notice, once again, how Umar's statements affirm that the original Torah remained uncorrupt and was in the possession of the Jews of his day. However, what Samatar and his taghut would have us believe is that Umar was really in shock over the fact that a corrupted Torah concurred and confirmed the Quran and vice-versa!

Yep Samatar, you made a believer out of us!


rowland said...

I thought Allah replaced Jesus with a criminal that was walking by so that the people taught they crucified Jesus when actually it was someone else??

Yet Muslims say/claim that Allah is a fair and Just one

Replacing Jesus with someone else on the cross will amount to injustice and unfairness on the part of Allah wouldn't it??

Search 4 Truth said...

@ ALL MUSLIMS

Did Good know his word would be corrupted?

If so why did he not prevent it?

If he didnt how can he be God?

So he wrote his word in vain knowing it would be corrupted?

Why did it take him several times to realize his word would be corrupted?

My Good is not dumb, nor would he not have the forsight to see that man would corrupt it!

Poor Allah. He fails every time! Islams Allah is NOT God!

He is the figment of Mohameds imagination in order to justify his immorality inspired by SATAN!

Islam and Mohamed fails AGAIN! Sorry now WAKE UP!

Search 4 Truth said...

@ Rowland

Yes. Regardless who the liar Allah replaced him with Allah was either a foll or a liar and the result of his lie was Christianity!

So either Allah knew the result of his deception would be, according to Islam, a false doctrine. Or Allah didnt know the result of his deception.

It's so absurd It's laughable!

Poor dumb Allah!

Search 4 Truth said...

Hey Samatar

I love you bro. Please snap out of it.

Peace and love in Christs name!

Henri-Paul Indiogine said...

Sam wrote:

This is for Henir-Paul. Let us see what the NT says about the jews killing Jesus:

"For you, brothers, became imitators of the churches of God in Christ Jesus that are in Judea. For you suffered the same things from your own countrymen as they did from THE JEWS, WHO KILLED BOTH THE LORD JESUS and the prophets, and drove us out, and displease God and oppose all mankind by hindering us from speaking to the Gentiles that they might be saved—so as always to fill up the measure of their sins. But wrath has come upon them at last!" 1 Thessalonians 2:14-16

It seems that you are at odds with Paul. Therefore, time for you to rethink your position.

==========================

So what is it? Did the Romans or the Jews kill Jesus? The Jews indirectly killed the Jews. So, it is possible that Q4:157 refers to the Romans.

Henri-Paul Indiogine said...

Christian Ferger wrote:

In the Bible Jesus died, while in the Quran Jesus didnt die on the cross. Did you read at all ?

And Yes, Jesus did ascend into heaven in the NT too, but that was after he raise from dead and spent time with his disciples.
==============================

No, Q4:157 states that the Jews did not kill Jesus, it does not say that Jesus was not crucified. If we follow the Gospels in a strict sense, it was the Romans that crucified Jesus.

Rafael Princ said...

Hi David,

Surat 4:157 is not as easily understood to be denying the crucifixion. When you consider that there are 4 periods in islamic exegesis (read: tafsir) namely: The formative,classical, pre-modern and contemparily period.

Especially in the formative period (the earliest period of tafsir) we see that the ussage of israeliyyat and ismaeliyyat was common under islamic scholars. Tafseer Al Tabiri gives a outline of the different believes concerning the proper exegesis of surat 4:157. S
Some believed that a crucifixion happend and others believed it did and others that it did not. (see: The crucifixian and the Quran, Todd Lawson, chapter 2)

Interesting note is that shia scholars within the Ismaili school of thought believe that Jesus was infact crucified (i.e. Jaffar al saddig, Mahmoud ayyoub etc)

kenmehms said...

Where's samatar??

Sam said...

Henri-Paul,

In your reply to me you admit that the Jews did kill Jesus, albeit indirectly:

"So what is it? Did the Romans or the Jews kill Jesus? The Jews indirectly killed the Jews. So, it is possible that Q4:157 refers to the Romans."

That is a first good step since in light of 1 Thessalonians 2:14-16, you can no longer deny that the Jews killed the Lord Jesus, since Paul says they did, even though the killed him by instigating his death at the hands of the Romans.

But this then creates a problem for your interpretation of Q. 4:157 since the Jews of Muhammad's time could not have meant that they personally killed Jesus since they would have known what the historical record teaches, especially the Gospels which were in the possession of the Christians. They must have meant that the killed Jesus by instigating his crucifixion by the Romans.

Now how can you disprove this interpretation? If you can't then you really need to be cautious about saying that the Quran is denying that the Jews, not the Romans, killed Jesus since that is not the point of the verse. Nor does it make sense to assume that the Jews of Muhammad's time were saying that they personally killed Jesus, as opposed to causing him to be killed by the Romans.


Kraven Amica said...

Samatar's Mouth Shut! LOL!

Good one Sam! Infact I too am debating some Muslims on this same topic on Facebook. One Muslim ran with his tail between his legs and doesn't want to reply anymore. I've been tagging him but he's ignoring my post.

The group is ''Jesus Christ is God''

Henri-Paul Indiogine said...

Sam wrote

But this then creates a problem for your interpretation of Q. 4:157 since the Jews of Muhammad's time could not have meant that they personally killed Jesus since they would have known what the historical record teaches, especially the Gospels which were in the possession of the Christians. They must have meant that the killed Jesus by instigating his crucifixion by the Romans.
========================

I will tentatively accept your interpretation. However, Q4:157-158 is difficult to interpret. See for instance the Jews call Jesus the Messiah, something they would never do, unless in a mocking, ironic sense.

There is another interpretation that I encountered that hinges on the translation of "wa ma" in "wama qataloohu wama salaboohu".

The Arabic (and Hebrew) word "ma" means "that" or "what". It is a conjunctive pronoun. Could you please tell me Sam what "ma" means in Aramaic? "ma" can have a positive or negative meaning. The usual translation is as negative. What if that is wrong and we should just read "wa ma" as "and that"?

Then Q4:157-158 would just be a reference to Acts 2:23-24.

Thus, no contradiction. This should not be a surprise. The Qur'an directly and indirectly quotes the Bible many, many times and several times states that it confirms the Bible.

That Muslims today reject the Bible is in contradiction with the Qur'an itself.

I also see a connection between Q4:157 and the Toledoth Yeshu. Maybe Q4:157-158 was taken from a Christian critique of the Toledoth Yeshu.

Melvyn Cyrus said...

Well, Samatar's position raises a number of issues:

1) If Matthew, Mark... are not the Injeel, so why on earth would the Christians of the time of Muhammed be designated as people of the Injeel? If they follow a totally corrupted version and confess beliefs contrary to the Injeel, there is no reason to designate them that way.

2) Samatar's position is ridiculous. According to him, Allah is meaning: "go to your awfully corrupted book and judge by what Allah has revealed therein, but beware, because of the corruption make sure that you always have a copy on the Qur'an with you to compare and filter the information". Why not simply say "judge by the Qur'an", that would create much less confusion.

3) Actually, it is impossible to judge that way. Of course, someone could say that the crucifixion account would not be true, because the Qur'an is clear on it... But what about all the verses that would be acceptable for Islam. Take an example: "if a blinds leads a blind, both will fall into the pit". This saying of Jesus seems acceptable to Islam. So how can one judge whether it was truly revelation of Allah, or the invention of a late "corrupter"? What about all the miracle accounts. According to the Qur'an, Jesus performed miracles, but how are we to consider all the single accounts. Did they really happen according to Islam, or are they the fruit of fiction? It just shows that it's NOT POSSIBLE to judge if you don't have the original in front of you, and it doesn't make sense to give such an injunction: "go judge by this book, I know you don't have the original, but judge by it anyway, Muhammad will help you (even if himself requires your advice!!!)". How can one judge 4 books of the Gospel by only 25 verses about Jesus in the Qur'an. Was he really born in Bethlehem? Did he grew up in Nazareth? Allah doesn't seem to know.

4) Samatar's position is not what the verse says. It says "go and judge by what Allah has reveled in this book". There is no mention of a Qur'an as an overseer in that verse. Why wouldn't Allah add simply "by comparing it with the Qur'an" to make it clear!

5) Saying this is ridiculous. If the position of the Qur'an was that the Gospel is 95% corrupt, we would expect: "Christians let the Gospel, it's full of corruption, follow the Qur'an, the only preserved book". It's like Christians saying to Mormons; "Oh Mormons, judge by what the Holy Spirit has revealed in the book of Mormons"!!! Of course, there will be some overlap, but I would never recommend a truth-seeker to judge by whatever is in this book.

6) As Sam pointed out, there are many other verses corroborating our position.

Anyway, I think I'm once again coming in too late, when Samatar has already escaped!

Michael MacDonald said...

Asalaamu aliekum my brothers and sisters...its quite simple....Jesus' physical death is not important....whats important is that he lives in spirit...as do all of us...with God...hence Jesus' entire message and purpose...perhaps surah 2 verse 154 will shine some light on what 4: 157 means...only the non believers see him as suffering a "death"...Allahu Akbar...