Sunday, February 3, 2013

Saudi Preacher Fayhan Al Ghamdi Released after Rape, Torture, and Murder of Five-Year-Old Daughter Lama

Saudi Preacher Fayhan Ghamdi raped, tortured, and murdered his five-year-old daughter Lama. However, a devout Muslim judge ruled that, according to Islamic law, a few months in jail and a payment of $50,000 was punishment enough. Islam requires "blood-money" in such cases, and Ghamdi has payed his blood-money. Now he's free to have another daughter, and to rape, torture, and murder her as well. Welcome to the "justice" of Islam. (But don't complain about Sharia, or you're a racist.)

SAUDI ARABIA--Public anger has gripped Saudi Arabia after a prominent preacher who raped and beat to death his 5-year-old daughter was sentenced to a few months in jail and a $50,000 fine – known as 'blood money' – to compensate the victim's relatives.

According to Islamic law, the 'blood money' can be paid in lieu of the death penalty. The preacher's fine was reportedly half the usual amount because the victim was a girl.

Saudi preacher Fayhan Ghamdi, a frequent guest on Muslim TV networks, confessed to using cables and a cane to inflict the injuries, AFP reported, quoting activists from the group ‘Women to Drive.’

Ghamdi reportedly doubted that his daughter, Lama Ghamdi, was a virgin, and forced her to undergo a medical inspection.

In December 2011, Lama was admitted to hospital with multiple injuries, including a crushed skull, broken ribs and left arm, and extensive bruising and burns, according to the activist group. Hospital worker Randa Kaleeb said that the girl's back was broken, and that she had been raped "everywhere."

The hospital told the victim's mother that her child's “rectum had been torn open and the abuser had attempted to burn it closed,” AFP reported on Saturday.

In October 2012, the girl died from her injuries. The following November, the father was arrested. The judge ruled that the "blood money and the time the defendant had served in prison since Lama's death suffices as punishment," activists reported. (Continue Reading.)

161 comments:

goethechosemercy said...

I don't think "blood money" should be paid or accepted.
The only approproate response would be a blood-feud, followed by more blood-feuds.
The religion and culture of this society espouse and glorify violence.
It would be shameful to prevent a proper and equivalent vengeance from being taken.
Christian societies used the "weregild" in the past to prevent blood-feuds.
"Blood money" was abandoned when the rule of law was respected and adapted to medieval and early modern societies.
You can tell how advanced a civilization is not by what it does, but by what it has ceased to do.

TAREK said...

Oops
Where is prof. Osama BUFFOON Abdullah.
I am afraid he may follow the footsteps of his fellow religionisst and treaching of his pedprophet.
I wonder why muslims are not ashamed of their religion
GOD BLEDD

Dave Thompson said...

Hey David! I don't know how to email you so just check this out, 100% proof the quran is unscientific http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ocBEdjR-hKk

The moon, the symbol of Islam, could very well be their undoing.

kalpal said...

No Islamic theocracy will ever accept females as fully human. Murdering a female is akin to butchering an animal for food in Muslim culture. No Muslim country run by clerics and Muslim Judges will ever execute a male for murdering a female since they are just beasts of burden, not human beings.

Foolster41 said...

@Tarek: I'll save him the trouble and say what his most likely respnse would be based on past responses: "Jews did it!"

apran said...

The rapist and murderous preacher can be killed because his victim is a female, according to Quran. It is not fair and just because a male is worth twice of a female.

2:178 O you who have believed, prescribed for you is legal retribution for those murdered - the free for the free, the slave for the slave, and the female for the female...

That is how Islam value a female, a half of a male. And a Christian/Jews only a half of a muslim, a non Christian/Jews kafir only a fourth of a muslim.


theWordbelievein said...

Why is anyone surprised? He is just following exact teachings from Koran, which allows to HATE, to STEAL, to LIE, to RAPE and to MURDER.

Hasan Abdat said...

he did not rape his daughter, dont make stuff up

Mary said...

If this case does not convince people of the evil nature of Islam, nothing will!

Obsolète Broadcast Système said...

TO Hasan abdat: Actually he is not making stuff up, Al jazeera does report that medical staff said the girl was "raped" everywhere... and to hide the rape injuries he further mutilated by ways I have not the heart to spell...

Caricature said...

Islam- The religion of pigs.


Traeh said...

Hasan Abdat,
What do you mean he did not rape his daughter? Did you not read the story? Her rectum was torn open. He tried to burn it shut. A hospital worker said the little girl had been "raped everywhere." The father also didn't believe this little 5 year old girl was a virgin, the story says.

This is nauseating. And how nauseating that the judge lets him go for 50K fine and a few months in jail. But Islamic law apparently says that parents can kill their children. Perhaps the 50K fine is the Islamic judge's feeble concession to human sensibilities, which are not entirely dead yet even in dark Saudi Arabia, as shown by "public anger" there over this case.

Herakleios said...

@Hasan:

"Hospital worker Randa Kaleeb said that the girl's back was broken, and that she had been raped "everywhere"

ah, well good, that we make things up. And since she wasnt raped, the whole incident isnt bad at all, right? She propably just died a natural death and her father did all he can to safe her life!

....

Haya nadir said...

An evil man did a crime , he was a Muslim yes but does that make Islam bad no..And it is no where in Islam that children and wife are property of man and they can do what they please , it preaches them to take care of them and a man will be judged on the final day by the care he took of his family... What the cleric did was wrong but what you guys are doing isn't right either ... That is abusing Islam when you don't know a crap about it

Haya nadir said...

Apeman and the word believing you have no knowledge about what Islam says or is as a religion .. Why don't you read the surah there are on Quran on how a man should treat his family ... In Islam it is mans duty to provide for his wife and kids but what woman earns is to be hers , she can demand money for breast feeding her kids and if he has money she can even demand help for the house ... And it is written many a times that man will be judged on final day on how they treat their family ... Plus

Haya nadir said...

Plus how prisoners were treated in abu grain and media hid the pIctures does that make those soldiers wrong or Christianity a religion which endorses torture

David Wood said...

Haya,

Are you saying that Islam doesn't allow a murderer to escape punishment by paying "blood-money"? That's exactly what Islam teaches. So this man got to walk free after murdering his daughter because Muhammad's teachings allow him to walk free. How can you pretend that this has nothing to do with Islam?

Haya nadir said...

Plus how Hindus and Sikhs have treated muslims in Gujarat and Burma respectively makes those people bad or their religion

Haya nadir said...

Yes David it allows blood money but that is for unplanned murder and that too the family have to decide they can opt for blood money and if they want justice they get justice, but for rape there are no defined punishment it is said the harshest of punishments that is hanging to death cAn even be given, it depends on state laws

Haya nadir said...

Plus David an American Raymond Davis came and killed three people and the American government paid blood money and not only that they gave the family visas so you can use that law to your favor but talk against it... If you want to blame blood money blame families who take it , when they can ask for death penalty for the one who comitted crime

David Wood said...

The government didn't pay blood-money in the Davis case out of convenience. They paid blood-money because Muhammad's teachings demanded it, and therefore Muslims demanded it. If this had happened in some other culture (with a more humane policy), the U.S. government would have honored the local policies there as well.

BTW, I hope everyone is paying attention. Here we have a Muslim defending Muhammad's sick policy of freeing rich murderers who can afford to pay cash for their crimes (including brutally murdering their own daughters).

So tell me, Haya, if Ghamdi kills again, should he again be freed if he can afford the blood-money? And if he kills after that, should he again be freed? If he becomes a serial killer, murdering innocent girl after innocent girl, should he continue to walk the streets, so long as the families of his victims accept the blood-money? Should the rich be allowed to kill as much as they like?

This is the policy that you're defending? And do you think that our country would be better if we adopted such a repulsive morality?

Haya nadir said...

I am in no way saying Ghamdi is innocent and I am not saying he should go free because what he did was not unintentional murder it was rape and torture so he can not be allowed to pay blood money and dear sir the Saudi laws are not Islamic laws... Tell me where in Islam can a man pay blood money for rape?but do you know before America introduced the talibans to fight their battle against Russia how better the world was for most ..

Haya nadir said...

And Islamic teachings don't demand blood money they allow blood money if family wants it... They demand death sentence

Osama Abdallah said...

"Where is prof. Osama BUFFOON Abdullah."

I am right here!! :)

I have one statement to make:

The swines of the desert's days are coming! The Prophet of Islam said that the HORN OF SATAN will come from their lands in the End of Times. Absurd "Islam", not real Islam is what they follow. It's repulsive and disgusting.

Osama Abdallah

Osama Abdallah said...

BLOOD MONEY? Blood money my ass!! Blood money was put to prevent all out tribal wars! This is a murder of an innocent soul and a Believer. Here is what Allah Almighty Said regarding this:

[004:093] If one kills a believer intentionally, his recompense is Hell, to abide therein (For ever): And the wrath and the curse of God are upon him, and a dreadful penalty is prepared for him.

THE HORN OF SATAN AND THE SWINES OF THE DESERT's days are numbered, and they're coming! Their doom will be Hell in this life and in the lifeafter.

David Wood said...

Haya and Osama have no respect for Sharia! The Sharia manual "Reliance of the Traveller" lists crimes that are not subject to retaliation. Among them, "a father or mother (or their fathers or mothers) for killing their offspring, or offspring's offspring."

So Haya tells us that Ghamdi should be put to death because he killed intentionally, while Sharia says that there should be no retaliation against him because he killed his own offspring!

Haya nadir said...

When did say once sir that he should have been allowed blood money ... It never was unintentional murder , it was rape and torture he should have been hanged to death or whipped publicly but Saudi laws are not Islamic laws... And where in Islam can you quote it says that a rapist can give blood money... Nowhere ... It says they should be given worst punishment as considered by the state

Western Witch said...

Leave Islam, Christianity, etc out of it. I do not believe any of these dogmas. I am a proud Wiccan - a child of the earth and of Mother Nature herself. And as a Priestess of this faith, I can tell you that we denounce this horrible act. This was an innocent child. Her father needs to be punished. This was not punishment. He needs to be exiled - cast out from society so he cannot harm another girl. Life in Prison. When he dies - he will answer to the Gods - and they will visit upon him every hurt, every cry, every scratch of torn skin and destroyed soul.

David Wood said...

Haya,

According to Sharia, in order for Ghamdi to be accused of rape, there would have to be four male Muslim witnesses to accuse him. Obviously, there are no such witnesses, and so he wasn't even charged with rape.

So he gets away with rape because there aren't four male witnesses. And he gets away with murder because he can afford to pay the blood-money.

Lovely religion you've got there.

Western Witch said...

This is an evil man who raped and murdered his own daughter. He has a sick mind and an evil soul. He needs life in prison -exile him. He is too dangerous to be around women or girls. This has nothing to do with Islam or Christianity. This is about evil. When he dies, the gods will visit upon him every hurt and torturous act he vetted on his own child and others that we may not know about.

David Wood said...

Western Witch,

The fact that he was released after raping and murdering his daughter has EVERYTHING to do with Islam, because Islam has a system of laws in place that allows rapists and murderers to go free. Rapists go free because accusations of sexual sin can only be raised if there are four male Muslim witnesses of the crime, and murderers can pay "blood-money" to escape punishment.

So how can you say that this man walking the streets has nothing to do with Islam?

Caricature said...

Haya,

That's Islam for you: a bundle of insanity and stupidity.

Caricature said...

Osama,

Well, at least they will have their prophet with them.

Haya nadir said...

Yes one can take any surah without reading the context and you can make anything out of it .. Yes one needs four witnesses but not in modern days with technology and all the cases of rape are based on evidence and as far as the shariah book you have quoted is out of text as it was meant children who accidentally are smothered while feeding and sleeping should not be drawn out of proportion and by the way David that is one book of shariah and mOst Muslims are not following that fiqa... Anyway dear sir you want to argue for the sake of argument and you can use any surah without the story behind it and try to prove your point... But I and all the muslims who know real Islam that in no book of Allah it is written that man can rape or torture and if you think that it is so then I cannot change your mind as you are really prejudiced... My only point was that to call Islam and muslims names abusive things is not right if one evil person does wrong and one doesn't do anything about it .. But if you think that what others are writing and calling names ( pigs) is the way it should be done then say what you want my sir I have better things to do... Because I personally believe that people can read the holy book and still not learn anything nice if they don't want to but trust me I never take references from bible or Torah and ridicule them because I believe that all religions in the world teach decency but if you find that Islam teaches its believers to rape or molest you are very wrong sir

Haya nadir said...

Plus the people who are saying these hurtful things , I believe that their religions are not bad either they may not know how to get their message across with decency and respecting others feelings

Haya nadir said...

And bible is ambivalent to drinking and their are many Christians who believe that drinking was tradition in the times of Jesus, should people blame Christianity for every crime that occurs under influence of alcohol ... No they should not because there is a also talk about limitations... I hope you get the point and if not then you have your own path to follow and I have mine ...I strongly condemn that what Ghamdi did was wrong and I also believe he can never by my Allah because our prophet laid so much emphasis on rights of others and it is said that he will do Allah wrong like not pray or fast will be forgiven if Allah wants but if someone hurts his creatures (humans from all religions ) won't be forgiven until the person whose feelings were hurt forgives him ... So any Muslim who is not nice to another person cannot go to heaven until that person forgives him on the judgement day

Haya nadir said...

*what Ghamdi did I condemn and he shouldnott go to heaven*.. There was a typing error in
The line I saw all the other news and comments on this blog and it just has made me do sad so sir you can spread all you want about Islam and muslims and call as many names , because whatever I may sAy wont help you understand the religion and whatever you may say wont help me see how one can be so insensitive towards others beliefs and use such language and be so cruel and hurtful

SGM said...

@ Haya nadir,
You sound like an honest person, however, in the past, I have been burned by honest moslems. Now it could be that you are living in the U.S.A and therefore influenced by the Judeo Christian ethics. Therefore you are saying the things you are saying.

Having said that, in regards to reading the surahs in context, as you are aware, since Quran was put together haphazardly, there is no context in general. In any surah, a few verses talk about one thing and after few verses, it would be talking about an entirely different thing. There is no context in general compared to any book in the entire world. The only context you will find is between few verses and even to understand that, you have to go to the hadith. Though the quran declares that it is very detailed and explanatory book.

Now regarding if Islam teaches its believers to rape or molest, YOU are wrong if you believe that it does not. Let me jog your memory. Sex with captives: "Abu Sai’d al-Khudri said : The Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) sent a military expedition to Awtas on the occasion of the battle of Hunain. They met their enemy and fought with them. They defeated them and took them captives. Some of the Companions of the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) were reluctant to have intercourse with the female captives in the presence of their husbands who were unbelievers. So Allah, the Exalted, sent down the Qur’anic verse: (Sura 4:24) "And all married women (are forbidden) unto you save those (captives) whom your right hands possess." That is to say, they are lawful for them when they complete their waiting period.(1479)" Abu Dawud vol.2 no.2150 p.577. Now if you still believe that Islam does not teach rape, then I cannot change your mind as you are really prejudiced...

Also, I grew up in a moslem country as a Christian and I know how it is to live in a moslem country. I wish all moslems think like you do. Unfortunately, that is not the case. Your kind of attitude is only found in someone who is living in western society and is influenced by Judeo Christian morals or in someone who is practicing taqqiya.

Raian Farooq said...

Saudi Arabia is not a true representation of Islam. In fact, I'd be hard pressed to find a state that is. Saudi Arabia's Shariah interpretation is very culturally conditioned into perpetuating patriarchy, so it's no surprise you'd find ridiculously sexist behaviour coming from the country. There is no need to conflate a religion with a country. If I were to judge a book's coherence, I'd read it myself, not base my judgement solely on another reader's review of it - otherwise, I'd be opening myself up to possibly absorbing things through their distorted lens. Similarly, viewing Islam through Saudi Arabia's lens is equally unwise.

Verses from al-Qur’an

“O you who have believe, prescribed for you is legal retribution for those murdered.” 2/178


“A life [in exchange] for a life” 5/45


A Prophetic statement:


“The believers are equal (in their rights to demand) blood (of the one found guilty of premeditated murder).” Related by Ahmed in his Muṡnad 1/119, Ibn Majah pg. 2685, and al-Nasaī 2751 and it is authentic.

This incident is a total miscarriage of justice and misrepresentation of Islam. For further reading into the inauthentic verse the Saudis used to justify the sentencing.

http://www.suhaibwebb.com/islam-studies/a-father-killing-his-son-does-it-really-go-unpunished/

Radical Moderate said...

Heya Nadir

You wrote...
" And where in Islam can you quote it says that a rapist can give blood money."

He did not pay blood money for RAPE, he played blood money for killing his daughter. He did not intentionally kill his daughter that is evident because she was taken to the hospital so he did not mean to kill her.

arman_shk said...

On the subject of this brutal act, we all know that it is pretty lame to think that it is related to religion, however, as a guy who believes in god (some sort of shia but not a serious one and accept all other religions) know that Muslim countries do not have modern laws and they still use the very primitive laws of Islam to reason their own existence and prevent any movement toward democracy. Hence, it is clear why these kind of responses seem seriously far from humanity- they were for controlling wild tribal Arabs of over 15 centuries ago. All I am saying is that it is not fair to judge a religion by just hearing it from some crazy extremists or main stream medias. Believe me, I am an Iranian and it is the worst situation for a freedom seeker to be in: our government accuses of being west spies and West sees us some extremists who are our government's agents and going to do some crazy stuff, and funny this is both sides are crushing us in their own favor. And all I am asking, do not judge before you know the whole truth as we (not my government and their mercenaries) do not misinterpret others although the whole world and even our very own country is against us.

Winds of change said...

No religion allows or sanctifies rape..be it Islam, christianity or for that matter even a pagan religion.It would be extremely foolish to blame Islam on some perverts behaviour.Josef Fritzl was a christian .He raped his daughter for 15 yrs and had 7 children from her..does it mean that christianity allows incest.Plz do not escalate matter on religious lines.Ghamdi should be buried alive,there are no second houghts about it,but do not involve Islam into all this..

silver line said...

This is the real Isalam, Tha's what it is. they are the true followers of Prophet Mohammad...

Ali Mohammed said...

He is no muslim anywhere and people like him should be punished strictly and the saudi laws should be implemented strictly on actions and should not come under any influence. Rule is rule and justice for all coz all are equal in the eyes of Allah and nobody should blame Islam for the sake of this type of "Black sheeps" . Islam is the only religion to protect women, but we can see many cases in western world in the name of modernization, women and girls are focused as playful things. I'm proud of being muslim and more proud of being Indian muslim.

Atheeq Ahmed said...

To Mr.sgm

please read the folwing verses carefully , just taking out a statement from the whole story is not enough , kindly read the full story to understand the statement.if u dont understand and i i sure u will not understand the back ground of this below verses,first you read this clearly then i will explain you in detail


4:19. O you who believe! You are not permitted to inherit women against their will, nor to prevent them from marriage in order to get part of (the dowry) what you have given them, unless they commit open Fahishah. And live with them honorably. If you dislike them, it may be that you dislike a thing and Allah brings through it a great deal of good.)

(4:20. But if you intend to replace a wife by another and you have given one of them a Qintar, take not the least bit of it back; would you take it wrongfully without a right and (with) a manifest sin)

(4:21. And how could you take it (back) while you have gone in unto each other, and they have taken from you a firm and strong covenant)

(4:22. And marry not women whom your fathers married, except what has already passed; indeed it was shameful and Maqtan, and an evil way

4:23. Forbidden to you (for marriage) are: your mothers, your daughters, your sisters, your father's sisters, your mother's sisters, your brother's daughters, your sister's daughters, your foster mothers who suckled you, your foster milk suckling sisters, your wives' mothers, your stepdaughters under your guardianship, born of your wives unto whom you have gone in -- but there is no sin on you if you have not gone in unto them (to marry their daughters), -- the wives of your sons who (spring) from your own loins, and two sisters in wedlock at the same time, except for what has already passed; verily, Allah is Oft- Forgiving, Most Merciful.)

4:24. Also (forbidden are) women already married, except those (slaves) whom your right hands possess. Thus has Allah ordained for you. All others are lawful, provided you seek them (with a dowry) from your property, desiring chastity, not fornication. So with those among them whom you have enjoyed, give them their required due, but if you agree mutually (to give more) after the requirement (has been determined), there is no sin on you. Surely, Allah is Ever All-Knowing, All-Wise.)












Haya nadir said...

@ sgm You may be surprised to know that I came to US five months back and have been born and raised in Pakistan and not just a main city also in areas which are under drone attack, but do I think what is happening is wrong , yes but do I blame religion the reason why America first supported Taliban to fight a war against Russia and introduced weapons into the region, no... I believe it in human nature to want power.. I am really sorry to know that you have been burnt by Muslims but you think I am the only person in Pakistan to have beliefs about peace and respecting religions, you are wrong... I have never in my entire life heard or read so many cruel things published in Pakistan about any prophet...Now I know what your next argument will be that I belong to a country of mukhtar an Mai and malala yousufzai , sadly I do but that is an extreme minority whereas I can tell you that in my class in medical school there were more than 80 percent girls and 20 percent boys... I can also tell you that my grandparents , my parents have never hit us ... My father asked me of my choice not once but a hundred times at the time of my wedding.. I will also tell you that in Islam that there are many things that a parent has to provide for a child a good name, aqeeqa( declaration and merriment on having a child) , feed for upto two years , good education and upbringing , marriage when they are right age and a share in property And living in a Muslim state did I ever felt suppressed , no and was I the only woman studying, no ... Did I feel forced to do anything against my will, no ... Actually I feel blessed , I met my husband in an arranged setting, we never went out but we talked on phone and he would come at my parents place to meet, are we happy , yes and we have been married for six years... My parents have been married for twenty eight , my in laws forty five and my grandparents way more than fifty .. Do all these women feel suppressed , no... They are educated confident women... They feel blessed their husbands support them , the money they earn is theirs to keep plus they are the ones making decisions for their husbands pays as well ... Is my family the only one, no... I have never come across hundreds of families like mine so no US has no influence in who I am as a person, as I have moved Here 4. - 5 months back but thank God I have never seen people cook so much hate ... I remember on our trip to Europe I told the officer at immigration that it was my first trip with my husband and I was twenty two she said you must have been forced into marriage because we don't usually marry till we are forty and from that day on I have a lot of remarks on my trips but have I ever taken them seriously never because u always gave them the benefit of doubt but I believe after all I have read on this community i feel I should stay away from here as I might start learning things that I was never taught...I.e hate

Atheeq Ahmed said...

To sgm

My email id is
ath143ahmed@gmail.com , what ever questions u have regarding islam , kindly mail to the above address

Haya nadir said...

Oh and the surah you posted what I understood after reading the whole surah was that they should marry those women , give them what they have in property and make a deal they mutually agree and not to indulge in adultery... If you will read the entire verse it will become clear to you ... Whereas quoting Hadith is we consider some books like sahih Bukhari more authentic and even in those there are few controversial incidents... So bringing a reference from Abu Dawood and that too a weak one may not be the most right thing to do

Haya nadir said...

Plus I will like to say that I accidentally came upon this page as I was trying to find a page where we could ask people to peacefully protest the judgement and ask higher authorities for justice ... I was shocked to read what I read and if I could undo it all I would stay away from pages like this ... But I just want to ask you that do you believe in a simple attitude that what you do comes back at you ? If you spread such hateful thoughts about someone's beloved prophet and so much negativity in general , what will you expect in return? But don't worry if you feel hostility coming your way it won't be from me as I can and always will only pray for good to happen to all creatures of Allah

Atheeq Ahmed said...

aa

Mazdak said...

I have a question of those who defend Islam; do you really believe his punishment is fair or not? If his punishment which is based on Islam is not fair so how could Islam be fair?

raj singhania said...

i simply dont know what to say for dis crap.i have been a getting strange feeling about this country called saudi arabia, Till date whatever i have heard about this country are all horror stories ,not a single happy story. i wonder why is the US not doing anything about this matter ,they call themselves a great friend of saudi and a great protector of humanity and human rights!!! s the US govt sleeping now??? Where has the UNO gone now??? wht the hell is blood money . i think saudi shud be banned from everything . just becos they hav this fuckin oil is the US keeping mum over so many issues?? wish i cud get my hands on that bastard preacher , wud have killed him myself. oh great preacher pls come to india , we will check u and tell whther ur a fuckin virgin!!! son of a bitch!!

Caricature said...

Haya,

it's your holy book that says Allah only loves Muslims. And that Jews and Christians are the worst of creatures.

Dont you find that hateful?

Western Witch said...

Ha! And what does it say about Wiccans? (Witches)

In all seriousness, all holy texts are to be respected. Obviously they aren't to be taken literally. But all do add some value. Just ignore the bad and only take the good. The good being Love, Compassion, Charity, etc.

Western Witch said...

I don't recall any Pagan holy text that says rape.... can you site your reference to this?

Search 4 Truth said...

@ Winds of change

Firstly Islam does ordain rape of female captives!

Abu Sa'id al-Khudri (Allah her pleased with him) reported that at the Battle of Hanain Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) sent an army to Autas and encountered the enemy and fought with them. Having overcome them and taken them captives, the Companions of Allah's Messenger (may peace te upon him) seemed to refrain from having intercourse with captive women because of their husbands being polytheists. Then Allah, Most High, sent down regarding that:" And women already married, except those whom your right hands possess (Sura 4.24)"
Sahih Muslim 8:3432

Narrated Ibn Muhairiz: I entered the Mosque and saw Abu Said Al-Khudri and sat beside him and asked him about Al-Azl (i.e. coitus interruptus). Abu Said said, "We went out with Allah's Apostle for the Ghazwa of Banu Al-Mustaliq and we received captives from among the Arab captives and we desired women and celibacy became hard on us and we loved to do coitus interruptus. So when we intended to do coitus interrupt us, we said, 'How can we do coitus interruptus before asking Allah's Apostle who is present among us?" We asked (him) about it and he said, 'It is better for you not to do so, for if any soul (till the Day of Resurrection) is predestined to exist, it will exist."
Sahih Bukhari 5:59:459

And, forbidden to you are, wedded women, those with spouses, that you should marry them before they have left their spouses, be they Muslim free women or not; save what your right hands own, of captured [slave] girls, whom you may have sexual intercourse with, even if they should have spouses among the enemy camp, but only after they have been absolved of the possibility of pregnancy [after the completion of one menstrual cycle]...
Qur'an 4:24
Tafsir al-Jalalayn
And all married women (are forbidden unto you save those (captives) whom your right hands possess of captives, even if they have husbands in the Abode of War, after ascertaining that they are not pregnant, by waiting for the lapse of one period of menstruation....
Qur'an 4:24
Tafsir 'Ibn Abba

Search 4 Truth said...

@ Ali

Islam in no way protects women. Women are property!


Bukhari (62:81) - "The Prophet said: "'The stipulations most entitled to be abided by are those with which you are given the right to enjoy the (women's) private parts (i.e. the stipulations of the marriage contract).'"


Tabari Vol 9, Number 1754 - "Treat women well, for they are [like] domestic animals with you and do not possess anything for themselves."

Qur'an (4:3) - "Marry women of your choice, Two or three or four"


Qur'an (23:5-6) - "..who abstain from sex, except with those joined to them in the marriage bond, or (the captives) whom their right hands possess..."


* تفسير Tafsir al-Jalalayn
{ إِلاَّ عَلَىٰ أَزْوَاجِهِمْ أَوْ مَا مَلَكَتْ أَيْمَانُهُمْ فَإِنَّهُمْ غَيْرُ مَلُومِينَ }

except from their spouses, that is, to their spouses, and what [slaves] their right hands possess, that is, concubines, for then they are not blameworthy, in having sexual intercourse with them.


* تفسير Tanwîr al-Miqbâs min Tafsîr Ibn ‘Abbâs
{ إِلاَّ عَلَىٰ أَزْوَاجِهِمْ أَوْ مَا مَلَكَتْ أَيْمَانُهُمْ فَإِنَّهُمْ غَيْرُ مَلُومِينَ }

(Save from their wives) up to four wives (or the (slaves) that their right hands possess) without any limit in number, (for then they are not blameworthy) when they engage in that which is lawful,

Qur'an (4:34) - "Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great."


Abu Dawud (2142) - "The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: A man will not be asked as to why he beat his wife."

Search 4 Truth said...

@ Haya


* تفسير Tafsir al-Jalalayn
{ وَٱلْمُحْصَنَٰتُ مِنَ ٱلنِّسَآءِ إِلاَّ مَا مَلَكْتَ أَيْمَٰنُكُمْ كِتَٰبَ ٱللَّهِ عَلَيْكُمْ وَأُحِلَّ لَكُمْ مَّا وَرَاءَ ذَٰلِكُمْ أَن تَبْتَغُواْ بِأَمْوَٰلِكُمْ مُّحْصِنِينَ غَيْرَ مُسَٰفِحِينَ فَمَا ٱسْتَمْتَعْتُمْ بِهِ مِنْهُنَّ فَآتُوهُنَّ أُجُورَهُنَّ فَرِيضَةً وَلاَ جُنَاحَ عَلَيْكُمْ فِيمَا تَرَٰضَيْتُمْ بِهِ مِن بَعْدِ ٱلْفَرِيضَةِ إِنَّ ٱللَّهَ كَانَ عَلِيماً حَكِيماً }

And, forbidden to you are, wedded women, those with spouses, that you should marry them before they have left their spouses, be they Muslim free women or not; save what your right hands own, of captured [slave] girls, whom you may have sexual intercourse with, even if they should have spouses among the enemy camp, but only after they have been absolved of the possibility of pregnancy [after the completion of one menstrual cycle]; this is what God has prescribed for you (kitāba is in the accusative because it is the verbal noun). Lawful for you (read passive wa-uhilla, or active wa-ahalla), beyond all that, that is, except what He has forbidden you of women, is that you seek, women, using your wealth, by way of a dowry or a price, in wedlock and not, fornicating, in illicitly. Such wives as you enjoy thereby, and have had sexual intercourse with, give them their wages, the dowries that you have assigned them, as an obligation; you are not at fault in agreeing together, you and they, after the obligation, is waived, decreased or increased. God is ever Knowing, of His creatures, Wise, in what He has ordained for them.

And all married women (are forbidden unto you save those (captives) whom your right hands possess of captives, even if they have husbands in the Abode of War, after ascertaining that they are not pregnant, by waiting for the lapse of one period of menstruation....
Qur'an 4:24
Tafsir 'Ibn Abbas

Abu Sa'id al-Khudri (Allah her pleased with him) reported that at the Battle of Hanain Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) sent an army to Autas and encountered the enemy and fought with them. Having overcome them and taken them captives, the Companions of Allah's Messenger (may peace te upon him) seemed to refrain from having intercourse with captive women because of their husbands being polytheists. Then Allah, Most High, sent down regarding that:" And women already married, except those whom your right hands possess (iv. 24)" (i. e. they were lawful for them when their 'Idda period came to an end).
Sahih Muslim 8:3432

Search 4 Truth said...

Looks like we have a hole new crop of Muslims to educate!

Abu Sa'id al-Khudri (Allah be pleased with him) reported that Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) sent a small army. The rest of the hadith is the same except this that he said: Except what your right hands possessout of them are lawful for you; and he did not mention" when their 'idda period comes to an end". This hadith has been reported on the authority of AbuSa'id (al-Khudri) (Allah be pleased with him) through another chain of transmitters and the words are: They took captives (women) on the day of Autas who had their husbands. They were afraid (to have sexual intercourse with them) when this verse was revealed:" And women already married except those whom you right hands posses" (iv. 24)
Sahih Muslim 8:3433, See also: Sahih Muslim 8:3433
"Abu Sirma said to Abu Sa'id al Khadri (Allah he pleased with him): 0 Abu Sa'id, did you hear Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) mentioning al-'azl? He said: Yes, and added: We went out with Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) on the expedition to the Bi'l-Mustaliq and took captive some excellent Arab women; and we desired them, for we were suffering from the absence of our wives, (but at the same time) we also desired ransom for them. So we decided to have sexual intercourse with them but by observing 'azl (Interruptus Coitus - Withdrawing the male sexual organ before emission of semen to avoid-conception). But we said: We are doing an act whereas Allah's Messenger is amongst us; why not ask him? So we asked Allah's Mes- senger (may peace be upon him), and he said: It does not matter if you do not do it, for every soul that is to be born up to the Day of Resurrection will be born."
Sahih Muslim 8:3371

Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri: That while he was sitting with the Prophet a man from the Ansar came and said, "O Allah's Apostle! We get slave girls from the war captives and we love property; what do you think about coitus interruptus?" Allah's Apostle said, "Do you do that? It is better for you not to do it, for there is no soul which Allah has ordained to come into existence but will be created."
Sahih Bukhari 8:77:600
Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri: that while he was sitting with Allah's Apostle he said, "O Allah's Apostle! We get female captives as our share of booty, and we are interested in their prices, what is your opinion about coitus interrupt us?" The Prophet said, "Do you really do that? It is better for you not to do it. No soul that which Allah has destined to exist, but will surely come into existence.
Sahih Bukhari 3:34:432

Search 4 Truth said...

@ Raian


Saudi Arabia - Constitution
{ Adopted on: March 1992 }
{ Adopted by Royal decree of King Fahd }
{ ICL Document Status: Oct 1993 }


Chapter 1 General Principles


Article 1
The Kingdom of Saudi Arabia is a sovereign Arab Islamic state with Islam as its religion; God's Book and the Sunnah of His Prophet, God's prayers and peace be upon him, are its constitution, Arabic is its language and Riyadh is its capital.

Article 7
Government in Saudi Arabia derives power from the Holy Koran and the Prophet's tradition.

Article 9
The family is the kernel of Saudi society, and its members shall be brought up on the basis of the Islamic faith, and loyalty and obedience to God, His Messenger, and to guardians; respect forand implementation of the law, and love of and pride in the homeland and its glorious history as the Islamic faith stipulates.

KSA is governed by the Quran and the sunnah!

Search 4 Truth said...

@ Raian

Narrated Anas bin Malik:
Allah's Apostle said, "I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah.' And if they say so, pray like our prayers, face our Qibla and slaughter as we slaughter, then their blood and property will be sacred to us and we will not interfere with them except legally and their reckoning will be with Allah." Narrated Maimun ibn Siyah that he asked Anas bin Malik,
"O Abu Hamza! What makes the life and property of a person sacred?" He replied, "Whoever says, 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah', faces our Qibla during the prayers, prays like us and eats our slaughtered animal, then he is a Muslim, and has got the same rights and obligations as other Muslims have."
Sahih Bukhari 1:8:387, See also: Sahih Bukhari 1:2:24

I asked 'Ali "Do you have anything Divine literature besides what is in the Qur'an?" Or, as Uyaina once said, "Apart from what the people have?" 'Ali said, "By Him Who made the grain split (germinate) and created the soul, we have nothing except what is in the Quran and the ability (gift) of understanding Allah's Book which He may endow a man, with and what is written in this sheet of paper." I asked, "What is on this paper?" He replied, "The legal regulations of Diya (Blood-money) and the (ransom for) releasing of the captives, and the judgment that no Muslim should be killed in Qisas (equality in punishment) for killing a Kafir (disbeliever)."
Sahih Bukhari 9:83:50, See also: Sahih Bukhari 1:3:111, and Sahih Bukhari 4:52:283

Search 4 Truth said...

@ Haya

non Muslims are not equal and do not have the same rights as Muslims!

I asked 'Ali "Do you have anything Divine literature besides what is in the Qur'an?" Or, as Uyaina once said, "Apart from what the people have?" 'Ali said, "By Him Who made the grain split (germinate) and created the soul, we have nothing except what is in the Quran and the ability (gift) of understanding Allah's Book which He may endow a man, with and what is written in this sheet of paper." I asked, "What is on this paper?" He replied, "The legal regulations of Diya (Blood-money) and the (ransom for) releasing of the captives, and the judgment that no Muslim should be killed in Qisas (equality in punishment) for killing a Kafir (disbeliever)."
Sahih Bukhari 9:83:50, See also: Sahih Bukhari 1:3:111, and Sahih Bukhari 4:52:283

Narrated Anas bin Malik:
Allah's Apostle said, "I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah.' And if they say so, pray like our prayers, face our Qibla and slaughter as we slaughter, then their blood and property will be sacred to us and we will not interfere with them except legally and their reckoning will be with Allah." Narrated Maimun ibn Siyah that he asked Anas bin Malik,
"O Abu Hamza! What makes the life and property of a person sacred?" He replied, "Whoever says, 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah', faces our Qibla during the prayers, prays like us and eats our slaughtered animal, then he is a Muslim, and has got the same rights and obligations as other Muslims have."
Sahih Bukhari 1:8:387, See also: Sahih Bukhari 1:2:24

Paying Jizyah is a Sign of Kufr and Disgrace
Allah said,

﴿حَتَّى يُعْطُواْ الْجِزْيَةَ﴾

(until they pay the Jizyah), if they do not choose to embrace Islam,

﴿عَن يَدٍ﴾

(with willing submission), in defeat and subservience,

﴿وَهُمْ صَـغِرُونَ﴾

(and feel themselves subdued.), disgraced, humiliated and belittled. Therefore, Muslims are not allowed to honor the people of Dhimmah or elevate them above Muslims, for they are miserable, disgraced and humiliated. Muslim recorded from Abu Hurayrah that the Prophet said,

«لَا تَبْدَءُوا الْيَهُودَ وَالنَّصَارَى بِالسَّلَامِ، وَإِذَا لَقِيتُمْ أَحَدَهُمْ فِي طَرِيقٍ فَاضْطَرُّوهُ إِلَى أَضْيَقِه»

(Do not initiate the Salam to the Jews and Christians, and if you meet any of them in a road, force them to its narrowest alley.)

That is not equality.

Search 4 Truth said...

@ Raian

Volume 9, Book 83, Number 20:
Narrated Ibn 'Abbas:

For the children of Israel the punishment for crime was Al-Qisas only (i.e., the law of equality in punishment) and the payment of Blood money was not permitted as an alternate. But Allah said to this nation (Muslims): 'O you who believe! Qisas is prescribed for you in case of murder, .....(up to) ...end of the Verse. (2.178)

Ibn 'Abbas added: Remission (forgiveness) in this Verse, means to accept the Blood-money in an intentional murder. Ibn 'Abbas added: The Verse: 'Then the relatives should demand Blood-money in a reasonable manner.' (2.178) means that the demand should be reasonable and it is to be compensated with handsome gratitude.

Search 4 Truth said...

@ Raj

The US is damned if we do and damned if we dont. We try to aid the people of the world all the time. We give billions and billions of dollars to countries every year. We try and free the Muslim people from their dictators and oppressors like the Taliban and what do we get in return. Condemnation. Why? Because we are kafre. Non believers! And then they accuse us of trying to take them over and police the world. How much can we do? We have diplomatic relations with them. We cant fight every nation. We can apply pressure. Its very difficult. And we cant intervene in every situation. Injustice happens all around the world. But we arent going to get anywhere with a President who is an "ex Muslim" and sympathetic to Islam. We are not the world police. And we shouldnt be. But we can certainly reveal our disdain for this. But not with Barrack Hussein Obama in the White house!

Search 4 Truth said...

@ Atheeq

We can publicly speak here about Islam. Why would you want to quietly speak to him about Islam? So you can give your subjective perspective? Ill tell you what. If you have any questions about Islam feel free to post them here! Stick around. You will learn something. You probably wont accept it. Because it will be provided with evidence and substantiation. What Muslims do is make it up as they go. Never providing the evidence for their assertions!

So please keep coming and speak up. But be prepared to be countered with facts!

Search 4 Truth said...

@ Haya

So now in modern days the Quran goes out the window and modernity takes over? Well you have just made Allahs commands useless. If modern laws and technology are superior to Allahs then there is no use for Allahs laws. We can start whittling away at Islam. After all four witnesses is not relevant today because of technology. And blood money seems to be outdated. How about cutting of limbs and stoning and wife beating and concubines etc...

Lets start editing the Quran! What do you say?

SGM said...

@ Haya nadir,
Thank you for your reply and Welcome to the U.S.A. It is human nature to leave something behind in order to better yourself and not vice versa. You certainly have left Pakistan for something far better. Any Christian society is much better where you can openly dialogue with others even if you disagree with them. I guarantee you that this kind of dialogue would not have taken place in Pakistan where I can openly say the things I have said. Also, the reason you did not hear or read cruel things published in Pakistan about any prophet is that it is not allowed there, period. My head would have been chopped off long ago.

Now I respect your convictions, family values and views which do not reflect the Quran and teachings of Islam and I am thankful for that. I agree with you that there are probably many moslems like you with same values regarding other humans BUT then again, they are in conflict with the Quran and its teachings. E.g., you talk about the treatment of women that they can attend school, not given in marriage against their will, marriages lasting for long time etc etc. This is all well and good. But what does the Quran and hadith teaches about women. Women have half the intellect of a man, women are a tilth, wives can be beaten, women can be given in marriage at the age of six. Now as a medical doctor, do you believe that women have half the intellect, or women are a tilth, or woman can be given in marriage at the age of six and can consummate the marriage at the age of nine. I will be glad to provide you references. You can re-interpret these passages in any way you like, but this is what the Quran teaches. I am glad to hear that you were given in marriage at the right age and I am glad that most moslems don’t follow the prophet’s example.

Continued.

SGM said...

Continued from previous post.

Now regarding Surah 4:24, you are absolutely wrong that they should marry the captives. Like I said earlier, the Quran is haphazardly put together and this is what I mean. First, the above verses 19-23, are talking to moslem men in regards to which women to marry and not to marry. This is all in reference to the women in moslem community. Now when we come to verse 24, it explicitly excludes the captive women from all what has been said in earlier verses. It also says, “All others”, which means, with the exception of captive women. This verse came down at the end of a brutal war. It has nothing to do with the earlier verses. The reason this verse 24 is inserted here with other verses is because I believe it is talking about women which are forbidden to marry. This incident is not only mentioned in Abu Dawood but is also mentioned in Tafsir Ibn Kathir. “(except those whom your right hands possess) except those whom you acquire through war, for you are allowed such women after making sure they are not pregnant. Imam Ahmad recorded that Abu Sa`id Al-Khudri said, "We captured some women from the area of Awtas who were already married, and we disliked having sexual relations with them because they already had husbands. So, we asked the Prophet about this matter, and this Ayah was revealed, (Also (forbidden are) women already married, except those whom your right hands possess). Consequently, we had sexual relations with these women.'' This is the wording collected by At-Tirmidhi An-Nasa'i, Ibn Jarir and Muslim in his Sahih. Allah's statement,” So this verse explicitily exclude the captive women and therefore, rape or adultery is allowed in Quran. What is your version of rape or adultery? And by the way, anytime we quote something from your own moslem sources which you don’t like, all of a sudden it becomes weak.

I can not change your mind by just few posts. All I am saying is that, if you as a moslem have high regard of women, Christians, jews, love, respect for other religions and family values, it is great. But it is not what the Quran teaches. E.g., Christian and jews are the worse of creatures per Quran. You are not supposed to be friends with us per the Quran, etc etc. You might or might not have read these verses. Again, please don’t consider it hate when we quote you from your own Quran and hadith. I believe that no one on this site being a Christian will say that they hate you. What we hate is the teaching of the Quran and Mohammad. I hope you find peace and happiness and joy which you couldn’t in Pakistan. I myself am so thankful to my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ for giving me the opportunity to live in this land of the free and the brave.

Mam said...

I hope people will protest for this injustice, poor little girl, this is horrible.

SGM said...

@ Atheeq Ahmed,
I don’t have any questions regarding Islam. As a Christian I don’t believe that Islam is a religion of the true and living God and Mohammad is not His prophet. In addition, I would not want to get interpretation of the Quran from a moslem of this day. If I want to learn anything about the Quran, I would go to the first three generation of moslems to learn from. To do that I will go to tafsir and the Hadith which are widely available these days. You see, the problem with moslems like yourself is that you re-interpret the quran according to your liking and throw out the window what the Quran actually is teaching and saying. E.g., in response to my earlier post regarding Quran allowing the rape and adultery in surah 4:24, you posted bunch of verses from surah 4 and did not say a word about what 4:24 is teaching. What it says is that captive married girls are not forbidden to have sex with by moslem men. Now why don’t you try to educate us openly on this site so that others can benefit also from your knowledge instead of offering private correspondence.

Search 4 Truth said...

@ Haya

Qur'an (23:5-6) - "..who abstain from sex, except with those joined to them in the marriage bond, or (the captives) whom their right hands possess..."


* تفسير Tafsir al-Jalalayn
{ إِلاَّ عَلَىٰ أَزْوَاجِهِمْ أَوْ مَا مَلَكَتْ أَيْمَانُهُمْ فَإِنَّهُمْ غَيْرُ مَلُومِينَ }

except from their spouses, that is, to their spouses, and what [slaves] their right hands possess, that is, concubines, for then they are not blameworthy, in having sexual intercourse with them.

Tafsir al-Jalalayn, trans. Feras Hamza
© 2012 Royal Aal al-Bayt Institute for Islamic Thought, Amman, Jordan


* تفسير Tanwîr al-Miqbâs min Tafsîr Ibn ‘Abbâs
{ إِلاَّ عَلَىٰ أَزْوَاجِهِمْ أَوْ مَا مَلَكَتْ أَيْمَانُهُمْ فَإِنَّهُمْ غَيْرُ مَلُومِينَ }

(Save from their wives) up to four wives (or the (slaves) that their right hands possess) without any limit in number, (for then they are not blameworthy) when they engage in that which is lawful,

Tafsir Ibn 'Abbas, trans. Mokrane Guezzou
© 2012 Royal Aal al-Bayt Institute for Islamic Thought, Amman, Jordan

WITHOUT LIMIT IN NUMBER!

Mohaiyuddin Soniwala said...

I am reading some comments where bloggers are linking Acts to Religion...It is similar to blaming Traffic Laws when people are not following it.
As far as Islam is concerned, There is no second Ruling about Rape - "Stoned the person to Death" if person is married and 100 Lashes if unmarried (If person survive than leave that person - As a note person hardly survive this and if he survive than he will not even Dream to do it again).
Four witnesses are Required to prove Rape (This is a no brainer as every Law requires specific pattern to avoid false claims) AND NO WITNESS is required in case Person Admits the Crime.

I am a Muslim and If anyone actually wants to know the Islamic Law - a humble request to educate yourself on True Islam - Unfortunately, there are very few Muslims who actually represent the True Islam. I am NOT INVITING ANYONE to convert to Islam but at least appealing to comment after getting correct knowledge and refrain from commenting out of pure Hatred.

Thanks for your patience reading if you have reached this line

Regards,
Mohaiyuddin

Caricature said...

Moya,

we dont hate you. you hate us. well at least your supposed to.

do you love non- Muslims because your god doesn't?

Search 4 Truth said...

@ Moyahadin

Sorry about the spelling. Your not comprehending what this says. Yes it is a sin in Islam to rape Muslim women! But it is halal to rape female non Muslim captives even if they are married or You are married!

Some of the Companions of the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) were reluctant to have intercourse with the female captives in the presence of their husbands who were unbelievers. So Allah, the Exalted, sent down the Qur’anic verse: (Sura 4:24) "And all married women (are forbidden) unto you save those (captives) whom your right hands possess." (Abu Dawud 2150, also Muslim 3433)


* تفسير Tanwîr al-Miqbâs min Tafsîr Ibn ‘Abbâs
{ إِلاَّ عَلَىٰ أَزْوَاجِهِمْ أَوْ مَا مَلَكَتْ أَيْمَانُهُمْ فَإِنَّهُمْ غَيْرُ مَلُومِينَ }

(Save from their wives) up to four wives (or the (slaves) that their right hands possess) without any limit in number, (for then they are not blameworthy) when they engage in that which is lawful,


* تفسير Tafsir al-Jalalayn
{ وَٱلْمُحْصَنَٰتُ مِنَ ٱلنِّسَآءِ إِلاَّ مَا مَلَكْتَ أَيْمَٰنُكُمْ كِتَٰبَ ٱللَّهِ عَلَيْكُمْ وَأُحِلَّ لَكُمْ مَّا وَرَاءَ ذَٰلِكُمْ أَن تَبْتَغُواْ بِأَمْوَٰلِكُمْ مُّحْصِنِينَ غَيْرَ مُسَٰفِحِينَ فَمَا ٱسْتَمْتَعْتُمْ بِهِ مِنْهُنَّ فَآتُوهُنَّ أُجُورَهُنَّ فَرِيضَةً وَلاَ جُنَاحَ عَلَيْكُمْ فِيمَا تَرَٰضَيْتُمْ بِهِ مِن بَعْدِ ٱلْفَرِيضَةِ إِنَّ ٱللَّهَ كَانَ عَلِيماً حَكِيماً }

And, forbidden to you are, wedded women, those with spouses, that you should marry them before they have left their spouses, be they Muslim free women or not; save what your right hands own, of captured [slave] girls, whom you may have sexual intercourse with, even if they should have spouses among the enemy camp

© 2012 Royal Aal al-Bayt Institute for Islamic Thought, Amman, Jordan

I understand you have been lied to all your life and its difficult to accept! But its true. You are allowed to rape female non Muslim captives and keep them as your comcubine in an unlimited number even if they are married and you are married!

"We went out with Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) on the expedition to the Bi'l-Mustaliq and took captive some excellent Arab women; and we desired them, for we were suffering from the absence of our wives, (but at the same time) we also desired ransom for them. So we decided to have sexual intercourse with them but by observing 'azl (Withdrawing the male sexual organ before emission of semen to avoid-conception). But we said: We are doing an act whereas Allah's Messenger is amongst us; why not ask him? So we asked Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him), and he said: It does not matter" (Sahih Muslim 3371)

SGM said...

@ Soniwala
This is hilarious. After proving over and over again from the quran and hadith that moslem men are allowed to have sex with slave girls this guy comes along and start the conversation all over again. And tells us that we should learn from him beecause he knows it best. Have you been reading the previous post?
When moslems can't answer the question, they always either start the conversation all over again or change the subject.

Atheeq Ahmed said...

To sgm

please read the following details given below. read it slowly and clearly and this is the way of extracting information brother ,


(4:24. Also (forbidden are) women already married, except those (slaves) whom your right hands possess. Thus has Allah ordained for you. All others are lawful, provided you seek them (with a dowry) from your property, desiring chastity, not fornication. So with those among them whom you have enjoyed, give them their required due, but if you agree mutually (to give more) after the requirement (has been determined), there is no sin on you. Surely, Allah is Ever All-Knowing, All-Wise.)

Allah said,


(Also (forbidden are) women already married, except those whom your right hands possess.) The Ayah means, you are prohibited from marrying women who are already married,


(except those whom your right hands possess) except those whom you acquire through war, for you are allowed such women after making sure they are not pregnant. Imam Ahmad recorded that Abu Sa`id Al-Khudri said, "We captured some women from the area of Awtas who were already married, and we disliked having sexual relations with them because they already had husbands. So, we asked the Prophet about this matter, and this Ayah was revealed, e

(Also (forbidden are) women already married, except those whom your right hands possess). Consequently, we had sexual relations with these women.'' This is the wording collected by At-Tirmidhi An-Nasa'i, Ibn Jarir and Muslim in his Sahih. Allah's statement,

(Thus has Allah ordained for you) means, this prohibition was ordained for you by Allah. Therefore, adhere to Allah's Book, do not transgress His set limits, and adhere to His legislation and decrees.

Allah said,

(All others are lawful) meaning, you are allowed to marry women other than the prohibited types mentioned here, as `Ata' and others have stated. Allah's statement,




(provided you seek them (with a dowry) from your property, desiring chastity, not fornication,) meaning, you are allowed to use your money to marry up to four wives and for (the purchase of) as many female slaves as you like, all through legal means,

((desiring) chastity, not fornication.) Allah's statement,


(So with those among them whom you have enjoyed, give them their required due,) means, to enjoy them sexually, surrender to them their rightful dowry as compensation. In other Ayat, Allah said,


(And how could you take it (back) while you have gone in unto each other),


(And give to the women (whom you marry) their dowry with a good heart), and,

(And it is not lawful for you (men) to take back (from your wives) any of what (dowry) you gave them)

(So with those among them whom you have enjoyed, give them their required due,) was revealed about the Mut`ah marriage. A Mut`ah marriage is a marriage that ends upon a predeterminied date. In the Two Sahihs, it is recorded that the Leader of the Faithful `Ali bin Abi Talib said, "The Messenger of Allah prohibited Mut`ah marriage and eating the meat of domesticated donkeys on the day of Khaybar (battle).'' In addition, in his Sahih, Muslim recorded that Ar-Rabi` bin Sabrah bin Ma`bad Al-Juhani said that his father said that he accompanied the Messenger of Allah during the conquest of Makkah, and that the Prophet said,

(O people! I allowed you the Mut`ah marriage with women before. Now, Allah has prohibited it until the Day of Resurrection. Therefore, anyone who has any women in Mut`ah, let him let them go, and do not take anything from what you have given them.) Allah's statement,

cont

Atheeq Ahmed said...

To sgn

cont

(but if you agree mutually (to give more) after the requirement (has been determined), there is no sin on you.) is similar to His other statement,

(And give to the women their dowry with a good heart). The meaning of these Ayat is: If you have stipulated a dowry for her, and she later forfeits it, either totally or partially, then this bears no harm on you or her in this case. Ibn Jarir said, "Al-Hadrami said that some men would designate a certain dowry, but then fall into financial difficulties. Therefore, Allah said that there is no harm on you, O people, concerning your mutual agreement after the requirement (has been determined).'' meaning, if she gives up part of the dowry, then you men are allowed to accept that. Allah's statement,

(Surely, Allah is Ever All-Knowing, All-Wise.) is suitable here, after Allah mentioned these prohibitions.

-----------------------

Noah said: "O my Lord! I do seek refuge with Thee, lest I ask Thee for that of which I have no knowledge. And unless thou forgive me and have Mercy on me, I should indeed be lost!" al-Qur'an 11:47


3:64 Say: "O People of the Book! come to COMMON terms as between us and you: That we worship none but Allah; that we associate no partners with him; that we erect not, from among ourselves, Lords and patrons other than Allah." If then they turn back, say ye: "Bear witness that we (at least) are Muslims (bowing to Allah's Will).

Atheeq Ahmed said...

To Sgm

brother v will go slow by slow , if you want to became a doctor its not like if u pass primary school and start running a hospital and call ur self doctor , for every prophet Allah has ordinated enemies for them but the loosers were those who rejected the word of Allah,

Hope this is written in all Scriptures

i know again u will bring false doubt on this verses , but no issues i will clear your false doubt, first undertand no translation can translate quran in there own language untill u dont have proper knowledge of arabic , i can teach u each word with arabic grammer and its high literature but please please keep pateince

Atheeq Ahmed said...

To Search 4 Truth

have you heard about Abu lahb,
(1. Perish the two hands of Abu Lahab and perish he!) (2. His wealth and his children will not benefit him!) (3. He will enter a Fire full of flames!) (4. And his wife too, who carries wood.) (5. In her neck is a twisted rope of Masad.

This Surah was revealed befor 10 years of Abu lahb, for eg if he have acepted the islam before his death , then the quran have been proved in errors, but by Allahs will it did not happened because when Allah decides to take man in darkness no 1 is there to show him light

(And when you recite the Qur'an, We put between you and those who believe not in the Hereafter, an invisible veil.) (17:45)

Atheeq Ahmed said...

To Sgm

In before era it was permitted that a father can marry her own daughters and mother can marry there own sons and brothers can marry there own sister , if it havE been not happned you question your self how Adam (pBUh) and eve(PBUH) GENERATION have been scartted on this earth .then later all this were Prohibited ,correct brother.


The quran is a mixed with verses were one era was permitted to do and then shariah changed and same thing have prohibited

same way when if read the ayah 4:24carefuly it says

Thus has Allah ordained for you. All others are lawful, provided you seek them (with a dowry) from your property, ,,, it means u marry them , here allah dont say to rap and do illegal sexuality , it clearly states to marry them by giving dowry from there propeties by legal means,

let me explain by keeping the arabic litrature

The term muhsanah signifies literally "a woman who is fortified [against unchastity]", and carries three senses: (1) "a married woman", (2) "a chaste woman", and (3) "a free woman". According to almost all the authorities, al-muhsanat denotes in the above context "married women". As for the expression ma malakat aymanukum ("those whom your right hands possess", i.e., "those whom you rightfully possess"), it is often taken to mean female slaves captured in a war in God's cause (see in this connection 8:67, and the corresponding note). The commentators who choose this meaning hold that such slave-girls can be taken in marriage irrespective of whether they have husbands in the country of their origin or not. However, quite apart from the fundamental differences of opinion, even among the Companions of the Prophet, regarding the legality of such a marriage, some of the most outstanding commentators hold the view that ma malakat aymanukum denotes here "women whom you rightfully possess through wedlock"; thus Razi in his commentary on this verse, and Tabari in one of his alternative explanations (going back to ‘Abd Allah ibn ‘Abbas, Mujahid, and others). Razi, in particular, points out that the reference to "all married women" (al-muhsanat min an-nisa’), coming as it does after the enumeration of prohibited degrees of relationship, is meant to stress the prohibition of sexual relations with any woman other than one's lawful wife.(Quran Ref: 4:24 )


then , further more

"We captured some women from the area of Awtas who were already married, and we disliked having sexual relations with them because they already had husbands. So, we asked the Prophet about this matter, and this Ayah was revealed, (Also (forbidden are) women already married, except those whom your right hands possess). Consequently, we had sexual relations with these women.''

the statement above mention Consequently, we had sexual relations with these women.''

what Consequently,means , it mean same time r at that same movement r immediately , no brother it means after the ayah of prohibitted and law of dowry was reavelled, there is no word said the women were raped and ect


Consequently means accordingly,therefore,as a result


if still u dont understand , no issues Allah has given me patience ,



Sadiq said...

David wood,am i correct? if yes, thats gud....Will like to make u and call ur attention to something 'cos it has been ur normal style of misquoting,mis-interpreting and re-editing every verse of the quran u comment on and the likes of the Hadiths of the Holy prophet muhamad (pbuh).... Let me get this straigth to u 'cos people like osama Abdalah has tried in different ways of delivering u from the devil inspired missionary u are in but still U claim to be the best Arrogant booster than Even pharaoh on the surface of this earth,,remember that in the case u get stucked to the name of Almigthy God that says He is merciful and yes He is,i will kindly advise u to remember He is the beneficial Too,i believe u will understand what it means and it look devilish to me when i saw u on ur pic and u are dressing on a woman dress and u are even on Tattoos,,,U must be a Stupid Human being,i guess.

And for the so called fools that follows people like u are just fool that comes to this world which even if Almigthy God Himself shows them to follow they will never but follow Gay christian like David wood.
@dave thompson,,,U must be a comedian,dont u check ur bible b4 u bringing this site up saying the Holy quran is unscientific,,,sorry bro,am very sure u are suffering from brain diseases and make sure u attend to it.......Mind u,dats if u care to Knwo, The Holy Quran is directly God's word and has no Human authour..So kEep quite even ur david wood cld testify to that except he is still longing for HELL....

Atheeq Ahmed said...

TO Search 4 Truth


BROTHER i dont undertand wht problem you have with this hadeeth, to know this hadeeth properly u have to first know what is slave girl, first u tell wht u have understand, then i will expalin you if Allah wills


Sahih Muslim Book 08. Marriage Chapter: Al-Azl 3371(incomplete sexual intercourse): Coitus Interruptus.

Abu Sirma said to Abu Sa'id al Khadri (Allah he pleased with him): O Abu Sa'id, did you hear Allah's Messenger (May peace be upon him) mentioning al-'azl? He said: Yes, and added: We went out with Allah's Messenger (May peace be upon him) on the expedition to the Bi'l-Mustaliq and took captive some excellent Arab women; and we desired them, for we were suffering from the absence of our wives, (but at the same time) we also desired ransom for them. So we decided to have sexual intercourse with them but by observing 'azl (Withdrawing the male sexual organ before emission of semen to avoid conception). But we said: We are doing an act whereas Allah's Messenger is amongst us; why not ask him? So we asked Allah's Messenger (May peace be upon him), and he said: It does not matter if you do not do it, for every soul that is to be born up to the Day of Resurrection will be born.

Atheeq Ahmed said...

To
Search 4 Truth :

Whenever the term ‘whom thy right hand possesses’ is used in the Glorious Quran it refer to the ‘slave girls’ who were captured as prisoners of war in the various battles that took place.


Since time immemorial, slavery was an accepted practice; thus it was not Islam that started this practice, but rather Islam was the first system to inculcate the freedom of slaves and take steps to make them equal citizens of society. Slavery was abolished in modern society only a couple of centuries ago, and was openly practiced in almost all parts of the civilized world even until the early 1900s. But Islam made it a virtue to free slaves, and inculcate them into society as equal citizens, almost 1400 years ago!


So, how did people (men and women) become slaves?

There were several ways in earlier times how a free person would become a slave.

The already existent slaves and their offspring were also considered slaves.

People used to steal children and then sell them as slaves in another place.

One tribe would attack another tribe, kill the men, and take the women and children as slaves and then sell them as war-booty.

This practice was prevalent all over the world at the times, thus we must remember that Islam neither started it, nor encouraged it. Islam, in fact closed almost all the doors on how a free man becomes a slave, and in reality opened all the doors to free these slaves and make them responsible members in society. Islam was instrumental in eradicating slavery and made it a virtue and a means of reward from Allah to free slaves and inculcate them into society.


The Messenger of Allah (saws) declared it a sin to kidnap any free man, woman or child and make them slaves. After the wars, the Prophet (saws) used to exchange the Prisoners of War if both the warring parties agreed to it. If not, the captives were set free by taking a ransom for them. If the slaves or their families could not afford the ransom, most times the Prophet (saws) showed generosity and released them without any ransom. Only if none of the above were possible, and the captives had no place to return to, then these captives were made slaves and all efforts were taken to inculcate them into the existing Islamic Society.

Thus, there arose a issue with the women who were captured as Prisoners of War, and were not exchanged, nor ransomed, nor had any place to return to. Most times the wars were with tribes, and whoever won these wars, the losing tribes were completely annihilated. Thus there was no place to send the Prisoners of War back to, and it became imperative that these people were inculcated within the society. Thus there were two choices left with the slave girls:

Leave them alone in society with no family and no protection.

Give them under the guardianship and protection of an existing family.

Option-1. Leave them alone in society with no family and no protection.

This would not have been a good option. There was obviously a fear that these women, who had absolutely no family and tribe to protect or feed them, would start immoral practices if left to fend for themselves. And because no one could determine their lineage, no honorable person at that time would marry them outright. And also it would not be right to just leave these women, who had absolutely no means, no family, and no protection in a foreign land.


cont

Atheeq Ahmed said...

cont to sear 4 truth

Option-2. Give them under the guardianship of an existing family.

The state would determine which slave girl goes to which household. Neither the people who received the slave girl, nor the slave girl had a choice. Whatever was allotted by the state was received by them. This was considered the best and novel system to eradicate slavery and accept the slaves as members of society. We must not try to imagine this system of distribution and acceptance in today’s society, but rather 1400 years at the time of the Prophet (saws). The training and discipline of the noble companions of the Prophet (saws), and the true Islamic society which was created in light of the Holy Quran and the guidance of the Messenger of Allah (saws) must be kept in view to get a full picture of the condition of the times.

There is a huge difference between the slave girls of those times and the system of prostitution which is so prevalent as a disease in today’s society.

The slave girl was a social issue of the times, which if not solved by Islam would give rise to adultery and prostitution.

In prostitution, the woman sells here services for a fee to anyone who is willing to pay! The slave girl was taken into a household as a full member.

In prostitution, the woman has sexual relationships with many men! The slave girl would have sexual relations only with the person she was given to; very similar to the husband-wife relationship, the only difference being that the wife came into the house through a marriage contract, and the slave girl was allotted to the person by the state.

Prostitution is a result of illegal lust, and is a huge sin in the eyes of Allah. The allocation of slave girls was a issue of the times to envelope the woman taken as slaves in a war into the Islamic society.

Prostitution and adultery do not have any responsibility attached to it! The man-woman have a one-off relationship and depart. The slave girls were a responsibility of the person, who spent on them, gave them a place to live, fed them, clothed them, and raised their children as his children.

The children from adultery and prostitution are regarded as born out of wedlock and grow up without the name and without the shadow of a father. The children of the slave girls were known as the children of the person, grew up with his other children, and had exactly the same rights and inheritance as the other offspring.

The system of slave girls was accepted and respected by the Islamic society of the times. The slave girl was treated like his wife, and the children from these slave girls were treated like their children by society.

No religion, no state, no moral society accepts and respects the institutions of prostitution and adultery. This is a disease of society and every moral society has tried to eradicate this disease with little success.


cont

Atheeq Ahmed said...

cont to search 4 truth


Again, I reiterate that this system of slaves was not started by Islam, but was prevalent in the society in those times. Islam tried to encompass the slaves into Islamic society and gave them the respect and honor of being equal members and citizens of society. Almost all the doors and ways of creating new slaves were closed, and several options were created to free these slaves and entwine them into the Islamic society. It was considered a virtue in Islam to free slaves and a means of great reward from Allah Subhanah. Islam created a society whereby the compensation for repentance for many sins like murder, breaking of promises, missing of fasts, etc. was the freeing of slaves. In this way, Islam created an environment whereby slaves were made free and allowed to inculcate themselves into the normal Islamic society. We must be careful not to look into this ‘slave-girls’ issue in isolation, but rather look at the whole picture of the Islamic society at the time of the Messenger of Allah (saws). The training, the discipline, the character, and the morals of the noble companions was a direct result of their association and teachings and guidance of the Prophet (saws) himself. The values and degree of ‘Taqwa’ (God consciousness) and the love for the promised Paradise was so great amongst the noble companions of the Messenger of Allah (saws), that the system of justice and morality of the times just cannot be compared to today’s un-Godly times! One must not compare the slaves in Islam to the slaves taken by the modern colonists, who captured any free man in sight in the occupied territories like Africa, chained them and shipped them to their countries and treated them worse than animals! Among the slaves of Islam were people of stature like Hadrat Bilaal (r.a.), Hadrat Ammar bin Yasser (r.a.), Hadrat Salman al Faarsi (r.a.) and Hadrat Zaid bin Haritha(r.a.), the freed slave and adopted son of the Messenger of Allah (saws) himself. The status of Hadrat Zaid bin Haritha (r.a.) is such that he is the only companion of the Prophet (saws) who is mentioned by name by Allah in the Holy Quran. Thus the concept and picture of the slavery as practiced by the west, is absolutely different from the concept of slaves in Islam!


The main difference between a ‘free’ woman whom one married, and the ‘slave girls’ was that one would choose and propose marriage to a ‘free’ woman, and the ‘free’ woman had a right to accept or refuse the proposal. The ‘slave girl’ on the other hand was assigned by the Islamic State under the care of a particular individual, regardless of whether she agreed or not.


We reiterate once again that the concept of slaves or slave-girls was not started by Islam, but slavery was practiced by man since time immemorial. Islam was the first system which started the inculcation of slaves into mainstream society in the most honorable and effective manner.

Atheeq Ahmed said...

To Caricature

please read the following verses what says about followers of Jesus(PBUH)

(82. Verily, you will find the strongest among men in enmity to the believers the Jews and those who commit Shirk, and you will find the nearest in love to the believers those who say: "We are Christians.'' That is because among them are priests and monks, and they are not proud.) (83. And when they listen to what has been sent down to the Messenger, you see their eyes overflowing with tears because of the truth they have recognized. They say: "Our Lord! We believe; so write us down among the witnesses.'') (84. "And why should we not believe in Allah and in that which has come to us of the truth And we wish that our Lord will admit us along with the righteous people.'') (85. So because of what they said, Allah awarded them with Gardens under which rivers flow, they will abide therein forever. Such is the reward of good-doers.) (86. But those who disbelieved and belied Our Ayat, they shall be the dwellers of Hell.)

(Verily, you will find the strongest among men in enmity to the believers the Jews and those who commit Shirk,) This describes the Jews, since their disbelief is that of rebellion, defiance, opposing the truth, belittling other, people and degrading the scholars. This is why the Jews - may Allah's continued curses descend on them until the Day of Resurrection - killed many of their Prophets and tried to kill the Messenger of Allah several times, as well as, performing magic spells against him and poisoning him. They also incited their likes among the polytheists against the Prophet . Allah's statement,




(and you will find the nearest in love to the believers those who say: "We are Christians.'') refers to those who call themselves Christians, who follow the religion of the Messiah and the teachings of his Injil. These people are generally more tolerant of Islam and its people, because of the mercy and kindness that their hearts acquired through part of the Messiah's religion. In another Ayah, Allah said;

(And We ordained in the hearts of those who followed him, compassion, mercy, and monasticism...) ﴿57:27﴾. In their book is the saying; "He who strikes you on the right cheek, then turn the left cheek for him.'' And fighting was prohibited in their creed, and this is why Allah said,




(That is because among them are Qissisin (priests) and Ruhban (monks), and they are not proud.) This means that among them are Qissisin (priests). The word Ruhban refers to one dedicated to worship. Allah said,




(That is because among them are priests and monks, and they are not proud.) This describes them with knowledge, worship and humbleness, along with following the truth and fairness.

Atheeq Ahmed said...

To Caricature

u call this as hatful

2:87 (87. And indeed, We gave Musa the Book and followed him up with a succession of Messengers. And We gave `Isa, the son of Maryam, clear signs and supported him with Ruh-il-Qudus. Is it that whenever there came to you a Messenger with what you yourselves desired not, you grew arrogant Some you disbelieved and some you killed.)

2:136. Say (O Muslims): "We believe in Allah and that which has been sent down to us and that which has been sent down to Ibrahim (Abraham), Isma`il (Ishmael), Ishaq (Isaac), Ya`qub (Jacob), and to Al-Asbat (the offspring of the twelve sons of Ya`qub), and that which has been given to Musa (Moses) and `Isa (Jesus), and that which has been given to the Prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and to Him we have submitted (in Islam).'')

3:45 : Lo! The angels said: "O Mary! Behold, God sends thee the glad tiding, through a word from Him, [of a son] who shall become known as the Christ [32] jesus, son of Mary, of great honour in this world and in the life to come, and [shall be] of those who are drawn near unto God. -

3:52 And when jesus became aware of their refusal to acknowledge the truth, [41] he asked: "Who will be my helpers in God's cause?" The white-garbed ones [42] replied: "We shall be [thy] helpers [in the cause] of God! We believe in God: and bear thou witness that we have surrendered ourselves unto Him!

3:54 And the unbelievers schemed [against jesus]; [44] but God brought their scheming to nought: for God is above all schemers. -

3:55. And (remember) when Allah said: "O `Isa! I will take you and raise you to Myself and purify ﴿save﴾ you from those who disbelieve, and I will make those who follow you superior to those who disbelieve till the Day of Resurrection. Then you will return to Me and I will judge between you in the matters in which you used to dispute.''

Mohaiyuddin Soniwala said...

@ Caricature - Thanks for your comments. I am glad you at least read my comments.
First of all God [Irrespetive of Religion] does not have any single human - otherwise God would not have created US. I would recommend to study life of Prophet Muhammed (S.A.W)and we as Muslims are bound to follow His Teachings.
He used to feed (Non-Muslims) kids when their parents were aways. He never used to deny Alms to anyone (Irrespective of Religion) to the Extend that He would give away cooked food in Alms if someone asked for it (irrespective of Religion) even though they had not eaten for days.
His close relatives were killed in wars - After Muslims conquered Mekka those People who had killed his close relative were captives. As per Arab Tradition He can sentence all of them to Death. Less Harsher punishment would be enslave them. But He immediately freed ALL of the captives without any condition. He used to Help Old people (irrespective of Relition) - There is also clear incidence recorded when He took luggage of old lady (Zaifa) and helped her to get out of Mekka. This old lady (Non-Musalim) on the way was trying to educate Him to keep away from Prophet Muhammed (himself) not knowing He himself was Prophet Muhammed.
In my ealier post - I humbly appealed to educate yourself (Not through me - You can get enough authentic sources on internet...In fact I would recommend to go to encyclopedia - I never claimed I am all knowledgeable - I only claimed that basis of some of the dedcution is incorrect).

Thanks again

Atheeq Ahmed said...

To mr.Search 4 Truth

God have ordered not only prophet mohamed(pbuh) to fight , HE ordered many prophets to fight against those who not worship oneness of God

Narrated Anas bin Malik:
Allah's Apostle said, "I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah.' And if they say so, pray like our prayers, face our Qibla and slaughter as we slaughter, then their blood and property will be sacred to us and we will not interfere with them except legally and their reckoning will be with Allah." Narrated Maimun ibn Siyah that he asked Anas bin Malik,
"O Abu Hamza! What makes the life and property of a person sacred?" He replied, "Whoever says, 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah', faces our Qibla during the prayers, prays like us and eats our slaughtered animal, then he is a Muslim, and has got the same rights and obligations as other Muslims have."
Sahih Bukhari 1:8:387, See also: Sahih Bukhari 1:2:24


so what you say about the details given below

The Lord is a man of war. Exodus 15:3

The LORD hath sworn that the LORD will have war with Amalek from generation to generation. Exodus 17:16, Deuteronomy 25:19

And the LORD said unto Moses, Fear him not: for I have delivered him into thy hand, and all his people ... So they smote him, and his sons, and all his people, until there was none left him alive: and they possessed his land. Numbers 21:34-35

And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Avenge the children of Israel of the Midianites ... And they warred against the Midianites, as the LORD commanded Moses; and they slew all the males. And the children of Israel took all the women of Midian captives, and their little ones ... And they burnt all their cities....
And Moses was wroth with the officers ... And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive? ... Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves. Numbers 31:1-18


And the LORD our God delivered him before us; and we smote him, and his sons, and all his people. And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city, we left none to remain: Deuteronomy 2:33-34

And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them. Deuteronomy 7:2, 7:16

If thou shalt hear say ... Certain men ... saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which ye have not known ... Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword. Deuteronomy 13:12-15

When thou comest nigh unto a city to fight against it ... And when the LORD thy God hath delivered it into thine hands, thou shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword: But the women ... shalt thou take unto thyself; and thou shalt eat the spoil of thine enemies, which the LORD thy God hath given thee. ... But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth: But thou shalt utterly destroy them ... as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee. Deuteronomy 20:10-17

And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword. Joshua 6:21

cont

Atheeq Ahmed said...

To Mr Search 4 Truth

cont

So Joshua smote all the country of the hills, and of the south, and of the vale, and of the springs, and all their kings: he left none remaining, but utterly destroyed all that breathed, as the LORD God of Israel commanded. Joshua 10:40

For it was of the LORD to harden their hearts, that they should come against Israel in battle, that he might destroy them utterly, and that they might have no favour, but that he might destroy them, as the LORD commanded Moses. Joshua 11:20

Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt. Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass. 1 Samuel 15:2-3

Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel. Psalm 2:8-9

He teacheth my hands to war. Psalm 18:34

That thy foot may be dipped in the blood of thine enemies, and the tongue of thy dogs in the same. Psalm 68:23

Blessed be the LORD my strength which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight: Psalm 144:1

Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. Matthew 10:34

He that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. Luke 22:36

wht u say about this mr.truth , go back to u r scriptures and learn it properly , sorry sir this is not the way to search the truth nor i have the rite to say something similiar to wht u say , the guidance of lord only comes when you go in search of truth with not good heart,


Allah says

2:16 [for] it is they who have taken error in exchange for guidance; and neither has their bargain brought them gain, nor have they found guidance [elsewhere]

3:86 How would God bestow His guidance upon people who have resolved to deny the truth after having attained to faith, and having borne witness that this Apostle is true, and [after] all evidence of the truth has come unto them? [69] For, God does not guide such evildoing folk. -

Atheeq Ahmed said...

TO Brother search 4 truth

25:63 For, [true] servants of the Most Gracious are [only] they who walk gently on earth, and who, whenever the foolish address them, reply with [words of] peace;

Atheeq Ahmed said...

To mr.search for truth

i gone through u r statement ,i dont understand wht you want to know, in one statement u r saying capatives were married and then they had sexual intercourse , in other part you say they were raped , if they were married how can they get raped, and there is no direct statement in 4:24 were it says they were raped or any illegal sexual intercourse done ,

it is clearly mentioned

4:24 And [forbidden to you are] all married women other than those whom you rightfully possess [through wedlock]: this is God's ordinance, binding upon you. But lawful to you are all [women] beyond these, for you to seek out, offering them of your possessions, taking them in honest wedlock, and not in fornication. And unto those with whom you desire to enjoy marriage, you shall give the dowers due to them; but you will incur no sin if, after [having agreed upon] this lawful due, you freely agree with one another upon anything [else]: behold, God is indeed all-knowing, wise. -

in this verses no rape word is mentioned , it says married women are haram, then it says after giving the mahr(out of your possesions) , first point mahr is given at the time of contract of marriage , so it clearly prove they had sexual intercourse after the contract of marriage

u tell y ' out of your possession ' is mentioned in this verses , wht it stands for

i think i have to explain you with word by word by keeping arabic grammar ,in shaa allah

Atheeq Ahmed said...

To Sadiq

Brother dont lose u r pateince , when they speak falses so loud,y cant, v willspeak truth more louder than them,

17:81 And say(prophet mohamed(pbuh)): "The truth has now come [to light], and falsehood has withered away: for, behold, all falsehood is bound to wither away!" -

Allah's Apostel said: Those who fight for the word of Allah , they fight for the cause of Allah.

103:1 By (the Token of) Time (through the ages)
103:2 Verily Man is in loss,
103:3 Except such as have Faith, and do righteous deeds, and (join together) in the mutual teaching of Truth, and of Patience and Constancy.

This is dawaa so kindly preserve pateince

Jazak Allah

Search 4 Truth said...

@ Atheeq

I dont think you comprehend what this is. Al Azl is pulling out the penis before ejaculating. That means having sex with the woman and then prior to ejaculation you pull out so they do not get pregnant! Its a form of birth control!

And then Mohamed goes on to say to not worry about it you do not have to practice al azl. Why? here is another hadith!


Narrated Ibn Muhairiz: I entered the Mosque and saw Abu Said Al-Khudri and sat beside him and asked him about Al-Azl (i.e. coitus interruptus). Abu Said said, "We went out with Allah's Apostle for the Ghazwa of Banu Al-Mustaliq and we received captives from among the Arab captives and we desired women and celibacy became hard on us and we loved to do coitus interruptus. So when we intended to do coitus interrupt us, we said, 'How can we do coitus interruptus before asking Allah's Apostle who is present among us?" We asked (him) about it and he said, 'It is better for you not to do so, for if any soul (till the Day of Resurrection) is predestined to exist, it will exist."
Sahih Bukhari 5:59:459

So Mohamed is saying do not worry about pulling out the penis before ejaculating because "if any soul (till the Day of Resurrection) is predestined to exist, it will exist."

So Mohamed said to go ahead and have sex with them and do not worry about practicing birth control because if they get pregnant then it is Allahs will. Do you get it now?

Search 4 Truth said...

@ Atheeq

Nice copy and paste job. All of this is nonsense!

Quote "Since time immemorial, slavery was an accepted practice; thus it was not Islam that started this practice, but rather Islam was the first system to inculcate the freedom of slaves and take steps to make them equal citizens of society. Slavery was abolished in modern society only a couple of centuries ago, and was openly practiced in almost all parts of the civilized world even until the early 1900s. But Islam made it a virtue to free slaves, and inculcate them into society as equal citizens, almost 1400 years ago!"

Actually Islamic countries were the last to abolish slavery and that was only under pressure from the West! So Allah, Islam and Mohamed were odder failures if they were suppose to abolish slavery! And it doesnt matter how you were permitted to take salves. You are permitted to take them! There is nothing in the Quran that abrogates the taking of slaves! In fact even today Sheikhs and Imaams are trying to get it re-implemented because according to sharia you are allowed to have slaves. AND RAPE THEM! And Islam absolutely encourages it. Denial is not a rebuttal! When Islam gives commands to fight all non Muslims and then gives permissionm to take female captives, even if they are married and have sex with them that is a great motivation to do so! Especially when you can take the booty, ransom it, keep it, divide it up, and that includes women and human slaves! Plus the open ended command in sura 9:29 to fight those who do not believe in Allah even the people of the Book. So Muslims have plenty of motivation to fight. Allah tells you to fight ALL those who do not belive in Allah and Mohamed, and then Allah gives you permission to take possessions and human captives!

THATS A MOTIVATION!

1948: UN Article 4 of the Declaration of Human Rights bans slavery globally.
1952: Qatar abolishes slavery.
1960: Niger abolishes slavery (though it was not made illegal until 2003).
1962: Saudi Arabia abolishes slavery.
1962: Yemen abolishes slavery.
1963: United Arab Emirates abolishes slavery.
1970: Oman abolishes slavery.
1981: Mauritania abolishes slavery.
2007: Mauritania makes it illegal to own slaves.


So dont give credit to Islam for abolishing slavery when it was the West that pressured Islamic countries into ending the practice! Thank the West!




Search 4 Truth said...

@ Atheeq

Yeah if you wanted to just copy and paste all of this stuff from a website you should have just posted the website. It would have saved a lot of space! You havent provided any evidence for your assertions. I see you just copied all of this nonsense from www.islamhelpline.com/node/9037

Did you ever bother to check any of it before you posted it or it just looked good to you so you used it?

Now watch how you rationalize Mohameds behavior! And if Islam is what you say then Mohamed was a sinner and a very bad Muslim according to you.

Quote "The Messenger of Allah (saws) declared it a sin to kidnap any free man, woman or child and make them slaves. After the wars, the Prophet (saws) used to exchange the Prisoners of War if both the warring parties agreed to it."

Bukhari
Volume 3, Book 46, Number 717:
Narrated Ibn Aun:

I wrote a letter to Nafi and Nafi wrote in reply to my letter that the Prophet had suddenly attacked Bani Mustaliq without warning while they were heedless and their cattle were being watered at the places of water. Their fighting men were killed and their women and children were taken as captives; the Prophet got Juwairiya on that day. Nafi said that Ibn 'Umar had told him the above narration and that Ibn 'Umar was in that army.

This is when Mohamed took Juwairya as a concubine! Yes he went on to marry her. But she was a captive first. And as you can see Mohamed stole the children as well. So there goes that out the window.


Quote " If the slaves or their families could not afford the ransom, most times the Prophet (saws) showed generosity and released them without any ransom. Only if none of the above were possible, and the captives had no place to return to, then these captives were made slaves and all efforts were taken to inculcate them into the existing Islamic Society."
Where is the evidence for any of these assertions. You are just taking them as truth but not substantiating anything that is said. I am not gonna go through all of this! I can go to websites and copy and paste a bunch of opinions as well.

BRING THE EVIDENCE LIKE I DO!

Search 4 Truth said...

@ Atheeq

Mohamed was also a slave trader.


Bukhari (80:753) - "The Prophet said, 'The freed slave belongs to the people who have freed him.'"

Sahih Muslim
Book 015, Number 4112:
'Imran b. Husain reported that a person who had no other property emancipated six slaves of his at the time of his death. Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) called for them and divided them into three sections, cast lots amongst them, and set two free and kept four in slavery; and he (the Holy Prophet) spoke severely of him.

Bukhari

Volume 3, Book 34, Number 351:
Narrated Jabir bin Abdullah:

A man decided that a slave of his would be manumitted after his death and later on he was in need of money, so the Prophet took the slave and said, "Who will buy this slave from me?" Nu'aim bin 'Abdullah bought him for such and such price and the Prophet gave him the slave.

Mohamed says she would have gotten a greater reward if she gave the slave to someone else!


Volume 3, Book 47, Number 765:
Narrated Kurib:

the freed slave of Ibn 'Abbas, that Maimuna bint Al-Harith told him that she manumitted a slave-girl without taking the permission of the Prophet. On the day when it was her turn to be with the Prophet, she said, "Do you know, O Allah's Apostle, that I have manumitted my slave-girl?" He said, "Have you really?" She replied in the affirmative. He said, "You would have got more reward if you had given her (i.e. the slave-girl) to one of your maternal uncles."

Search 4 Truth said...

@ Atheeq

It doesnt matter if it was started by islam or not! islam continued the practice and went a step further by saying that you could rape them even if they were married. And you dont have to set them free, in fact Mohamed condemned a woman for setting her slaves free and said she would have gotten a greater reward for giving the slave to another Muslim. That encourages slavery to continue if you will get a greater reward for keeping the slave enslaved!

Im not even gonna read the rest of your nonsense! i went to the page you copied it from. There is not ONE iota of evidence for anything it says! NONE!


Ok are you ready Atheeq! Your using the same old tired arguments that have been refuted countless times.

The LORD hath sworn that the LORD will have war with Amalek from generation to generation. Exodus 17:16, Deuteronomy 25:19

This is a command for a specific people place and time. AMELEK, where? Israel!

Numbers 21:34-35 Same thing, specific people place and time.
Numbers 21
King James Version (KJV)
21 And when king Arad the Canaanite, which dwelt in the south, heard tell that Israel came by the way of the spies; then he fought against Israel, and took some of them prisoners.

Numbers 31. Same thing a specific people, place and time. And The Jews were to marry the captives! Not rape them Like islam ordains! Nor were they allowed to commit adultery like Islam ordains!


Deuteronomy 21:10 When you go to war against your enemies and the Lord your God delivers them into your hands and you take captives, 11 if you notice among the captives a beautiful woman and are attracted to her, you may take her as your wife. 12 Bring her into your home and have her shave her head, trim her nails 13 and put aside the clothes she was wearing when captured. After she has lived in your house and mourned her father and mother for a full month, then you may go to her and be her husband and she shall be your wife.


Every one of those Old Testement verses were for a specific people place and time. They are not commands for Jews to go out itno the world and fight all non Jews! Unlike the Quran!


Quran (9:29) - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."

Search 4 Truth said...

@ Atheeq


* تفسير Tafsir al-Jalalayn
{ يٰأَيُّهَا ٱلَّذِينَ آمَنُوۤاْ إِنَّمَا ٱلْمُشْرِكُونَ نَجَسٌ فَلاَ يَقْرَبُواْ ٱلْمَسْجِدَ ٱلْحَرَامَ بَعْدَ عَامِهِمْ هَـٰذَا وَإِنْ خِفْتُمْ عَيْلَةً فَسَوْفَ يُغْنِيكُمُ ٱللَّهُ مِن فَضْلِهِ إِن شَآءَ إِنَّ ٱللَّهَ عَلِيمٌ حَكِيمٌ }

O you who believe, the idolaters are indeed unclean, [they are] filth, on account of their inner vileness, so do not let them come near the Sacred Mosque, that is, let them not enter the Sanctuary, after this year of theirs, year 9 of the Hijra. If you fear impoverishment, poverty, as a result of the cessation of their commerce with you, God will surely enrich you from His bounty, if He will: and He indeed enriched them through conquests and [the imposition of] the jizya. God is Knowing, Wise.

Tafsir al-Jalalayn, trans. Feras Hamza
© 2012 Royal Aal al-Bayt Institute for Islamic Thought, Amman, Jordan


* تفسير Tafsir al-Jalalayn
{ قَاتِلُواْ ٱلَّذِينَ لاَ يُؤْمِنُونَ بِٱللَّهِ وَلاَ بِٱلْيَوْمِ ٱلآخِرِ وَلاَ يُحَرِّمُونَ مَا حَرَّمَ ٱللَّهُ وَرَسُولُهُ وَلاَ يَدِينُونَ دِينَ ٱلْحَقِّ مِنَ ٱلَّذِينَ أُوتُواْ ٱلْكِتَابَ حَتَّىٰ يُعْطُواْ ٱلْجِزْيَةَ عَن يَدٍ وَهُمْ صَاغِرُونَ }

Fight those who do not believe in God, nor in the Last Day, for, otherwise, they would have believed in the Prophet (s), and who do not forbid what God and His Messenger have forbidden, such as wine, nor do they practise the religion of truth, the firm one, the one that abrogated other religions, namely, the religion of Islam — from among of those who (min, ‘from’, explains [the previous] alladhīna, ‘those who’) have been given the Scripture, namely, the Jews and the Christians, until they pay the jizya tribute, the annual tax imposed them, readily (‘an yadin is a circumstantial qualifier, meaning, ‘compliantly’, or ‘by their own hands’, not delegating it [to others to pay]), being subdued, [being made] submissive and compliant to the authority of Islam.


* تفسير Tafsir al-Jalalayn
{ وَقَالَتِ ٱلْيَهُودُ عُزَيْرٌ ٱبْنُ ٱللَّهِ وَقَالَتْ ٱلنَّصَارَى ٱلْمَسِيحُ ٱبْنُ ٱللَّهِ ذٰلِكَ قَوْلُهُم بِأَفْوَاهِهِمْ يُضَاهِئُونَ قَوْلَ ٱلَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ مِن قَبْلُ قَاتَلَهُمُ ٱللَّهُ أَنَّىٰ يُؤْفَكُونَ }

The Jews say: Ezra is the son of God; and the Christians say: The Messiah, Jesus, is the son of God. That is the utterance of their mouths, for which they have no support, nay, imitating the utterances of those who disbelieved before [them], from among their forefathers, mimicking them. God assail, curse, them! How they are deviated!, turned away from the truth, despite the proofs having been established.

Search 4 Truth said...

@ Atheeq

So here is what you did. You went to an Islamic helpline with all of these claims and apologetics and excuses and didnt provide one single iota of evidence for any of them. And then you cherry picked a bunch of verses out of the OT and posted them without context. Do you see a pattern here?

Next time you just want to spew propaganda from a website please just post the website so we dont have to read all of that rubbish. And provide evidence for your assertions. This is a pathetic attempt at apologetics. And the only thing you did post for evidence you just plucked them out, most likely from another Islamic website, without context hoping that it would stick. This is absurd!

Mohaiyuddin Soniwala said...

@Search 4 Truth -
It depends on the purpose of your comemnt. From the way you are commenting it seems you don't want to know the Truth, but just search ("Google") on whatever material you can collect to prove your point.
As mentioned by Atheeq Ahmed, Slavery was not invented by Islam - in fact it appealed to mankind to move out of it or at least treat their existing slaves as humans. Secondly, as you are quite knowledgeable you should know something called Fiqh in Islam. Just quoting single verse of Quaran and Hadith and gettting (mis) Translation after googling is not basis of Islam. Every verse and Hadith has condition associated with it - where it is applicable, under what circumstances it was revealed, why the ruling came etc. Current Age does not have Slavery prevalant in any country - and this is agreed by all Muslim Scholars (True Fiqh Muslim scholars) in the World.
Islam or in face any religion give direction to live - it's interpretration needs very depth analysis. Hypocrites in every Religion tries to modify the Religious Text itself or it's interpretation to suit their need. You can pick any Religion from any time and this pattern will be clearly visible. Instead of condemning the Act of a person you are trying to force this act as a teaching of Religion.

Mohaiyuddin Soniwala said...

@ SGM-
Dear SGM, I again recommend to read my previous comments. Firstly I said "Please educate youself" and never mentioned to contact me to do so. Can you please point out the claim that where I said or implied -- "I am knowledgeable"?????
Re-iterating what I said (And again this Without any intension the MY Religiion is better than others) : Please comment on other people Religion only if you have knowledge about it. My duty was to inform that you are mis-informed about Islam. If you really want to know the Truth you will find your way - but if you want to win some kind of Wage Religious Supremacy Comment Battle - It will never end...

Search 4 Truth said...

@ Mohaiyuddin Soniwala

So the Quran, hadith and tafsirs are so codified that nobody can comprehend them unless what exactly? All your doing is making excuses. Did you read back what you wrote and actually comprehend the absurdity of it all? I have brought the Quran. the hadith, and the tafsirs that all correlate and corroborate on the specific topic. Im not just pulling random things out of the air. And look at what Muslims continue to do. Just make excuses and tell us how we dont understand anything because they dont follow YOUR specific view or claim. you say all scholars agree. Well prove it! All scholars agree on what? Provide the evidence for your assertions or all you are doing is making excuses.

ISLAM NEVER ENDED SLAVERY! It is permitted to this day! There is NO verse sura that says slavery is not permissible! In fact Islam gives ruling on slavery and says you can have any limit in number of concubines! Now watch how i present the evidence!


* تفسير Tanwîr al-Miqbâs min Tafsîr Ibn ‘Abbâs
{ إِلاَّ عَلَىٰ أَزْوَاجِهِمْ أَوْ مَا مَلَكَتْ أَيْمَانُهُمْ فَإِنَّهُمْ غَيْرُ مَلُومِينَ }

(Save from their wives) up to four wives (or the (slaves) that their right hands possess) without any limit in number, (for then they are not blameworthy) when they engage in that which is lawful,

Tafsir Ibn 'Abbas, trans. Mokrane Guezzou
© 2012 Royal Aal al-Bayt Institute for Islamic Thought, Amman, Jordan

http://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=73&tSoraNo=23&tAyahNo=6&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2

And obviously the West is superior to Islam because we abolished slavery long before Islamic nations. Islamic nations only abolished slavery under pressure from the West. So why was it that it took the West to force the hand of Muslims to abolish slavery when Mohamed was trying, but failed, to end it 1400 years ago?

1948: UN Article 4 of the Declaration of Human Rights bans slavery globally.[63]
1952: Qatar abolishes slavery.
1960: Niger abolishes slavery (though it was not made illegal until 2003).[64]
1962: Saudi Arabia abolishes slavery.
1962: Yemen abolishes slavery.
1963: United Arab Emirates abolishes slavery.
1970: Oman abolishes slavery.
1981: Mauritania abolishes slavery.
2007: Mauritania makes it illegal to own slaves.

What we have here is when Muslims are confronted with the facts we get these logical fallacies to try and defend Islam. But not one single iota of evidence to support your assertions. Its the same thing all the time. Bring the evidence. Nothing in Islam abolishes slavery or taking of married female captives and raping them even in the presence of their husbands!

This is Islam. I did not write it, i am only providing the evidence!

Atheeq Ahmed said...

To, Search 4 Truth

Really, i must appreciate your knowledge, u know so many things ,but 1 thing its not enough , u have knowledge but no guidance of your lord.

will conti

Search 4 Truth said...

@ Atheeq

i have no guidance from my Lord. And why is that? What makes you say that? Where is the evidence for that? Because i dont buy your apologetics but instead prefer facts? So that means I dont have guidance from my Lord.

Ok Atheeq you seem like a nice enough guy, but you dont know Islam, and you dont have guidance from your Allah.

See i can do it as well. Your Allah is not my Lord. I reject your Allah. I would really like for you to explain how I do not have guidance from my Lord. Please expound on this assertion.

Atheeq Ahmed said...

To search 4 truth

i said r some 1 said truth will be always truth. r u not coping from websource , then wht each hadeeth and verses of quran u r typing word by word , no,

u said no verses indicates to free slaves

8:67 It is not fitting for an apostle that he should have prisoners of war until he hath thoroughly subdued the land. Ye look for the temporal goods of this world; but Allah looketh to the Hereafter: And Allah is Exalted in might, Wise

8:70 ) O Messenger. say to those who are captives in your hands: "If Allah findeth any good in your hearts, He will give you something better than what has been taken from you, and He will forgive you: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful."

76:7 They perform (their) vows, and they fear a Day whose evil flies far and wide

76:8 And they feed, for the love of Allah, the indigent, the orphan, and the captive


u said, Every one of those Old Testement verses were for a specific people place and time.

Same way Quranic verses were for specific people ,place and time but if u combine everything u will surely get negative result , which at present u have knowledge but lac of Allah's guidance




Search 4 Truth said...

@ Atheeq

Come on, you dont know the difference between copying entire apologetics and excuses without any evidence from a website, from copy and pasting facts to substantiate what you I assert?

I could go to answering Islam and copy entire pages and post them day after day. But that is not how its done. I am presenting the evidence to refute you and substantiate what i say. if you cant comprehend the difference between the two i dont know what to say.

And atheeq those ayats you quoted dont sat anything about freeing slaves! Where does it say to free them? LOL!

And no sura 9:29 is an open ended command to fight all those who do not believe in Allah and that is for all time. it doesnt say a specific time, it doesnt say a specific people. But it does say THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE IN ALLAH OR HIS MESSENGER!

And sura 9 was the second from last sura revealed. Surely you know of the doctrine of Naskh. If you dont then you do not know how to implement Islam in your life or follow Allahs commands properly.


Quran (9:29) - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."

Now lets ask Mohamed what he thinks he was commanded to do, shall we?


Muslim (1:33) - the Messenger of Allah said: I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah

Bukhari (8:387) - Allah's Apostle said, "I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah'. And if they say so, pray like our prayers, face our Qibla and slaughter as we slaughter, then their blood and property will be sacred to us and we will not interfere with them except legally."

Muslim (1:30) - "The Messenger of Allah said: I have been commanded to fight against people so long as they do not declare that there is no god but Allah."


Looks like Mohamed believed he was commanded by your Allah to fight all non Muslims! Lets see what he did.

Allah's Messenger called Ali [and said]: “Proceed on and do not look about until Allah grants you victory,” and Ali went a bit and then halted and did not look about and then said in a loud voice: “Allah's Messenger, on what issue should I fight with the people?” Thereupon he (the Prophet) said: ”Fight with them until they bear testimony to the fact that there is no god but Allah and Muhammad is his Messenger…” (Sahih Muslim 5917)

I think Mohamed would know what Allah commanded him to do better than yourself, right?

Search 4 Truth said...

@ Atheeq

You must show me where sura 9:29 was abrogated. Because it is an open ended command to fight all non Muslim who do not believe in Allah or Mohamed as the final messenger. Because thats exactly what it says. And since sura 9 was the second from last sura revealed you really only have one sura to do it with. you do realize the Quran is not in order of revelation, right?


* تفسير Tafsir al-Jalalayn
{ قَاتِلُواْ ٱلَّذِينَ لاَ يُؤْمِنُونَ بِٱللَّهِ وَلاَ بِٱلْيَوْمِ ٱلآخِرِ وَلاَ يُحَرِّمُونَ مَا حَرَّمَ ٱللَّهُ وَرَسُولُهُ وَلاَ يَدِينُونَ دِينَ ٱلْحَقِّ مِنَ ٱلَّذِينَ أُوتُواْ ٱلْكِتَابَ حَتَّىٰ يُعْطُواْ ٱلْجِزْيَةَ عَن يَدٍ وَهُمْ صَاغِرُونَ }

Fight those who do not believe in God, nor in the Last Day, for, otherwise, they would have believed in the Prophet (s), and who do not forbid what God and His Messenger have forbidden, such as wine, nor do they practise the religion of truth, the firm one, the one that abrogated other religions, namely, the religion of Islam — from among of those who (min, ‘from’, explains [the previous] alladhīna, ‘those who’) have been given the Scripture, namely, the Jews and the Christians, until they pay the jizya tribute, the annual tax imposed them, readily (‘an yadin is a circumstantial qualifier, meaning, ‘compliantly’, or ‘by their own hands’, not delegating it [to others to pay]), being subdued, [being made] submissive and compliant to the authority of Islam.


It is saying those who dont accept Allah or Mohamed even if they are the Jews and the Christians. And dont forget the pagans. So that is ALL NON MUSLIMS!

You have been lied to all of your life! Im sorry to tell you this!

Search 4 Truth said...

@ Atheeq

I NEVER said that there is no verse that indicates freeing of slaves. Show me where i said that. Yes you can free slaves. And you will get a reward. But you would get a greater reward if you gave that slave to another Muslim. Thats what Mohamed said. And there is NOTHING that says you cannot take more slaves, buy more slaves or trade for more slaves. You could free a hundred of them, and then take another thousand. There is nothing that says you cannot have, take, or trade slaves. if you free them then thats fine. But you can continue to take them!

And your getting off of the topic which was you are permitted to rape your female captives even if you or the captive is married! Which is of course adultery as well.

Some of the Companions of the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) were reluctant to have intercourse with the female captives in the presence of their husbands who were unbelievers. So Allah, the Exalted, sent down the Qur’anic verse: (Sura 4:24) "And all married women (are forbidden) unto you save those (captives) whom your right hands possess." (Abu Dawud 2150, also Muslim 3433)

"We went out with Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) on the expedition to the Bi'l-Mustaliq and took captive some excellent Arab women; and we desired them, for we were suffering from the absence of our wives, (but at the same time) we also desired ransom for them. So we decided to have sexual intercourse with them but by observing 'azl (Withdrawing the male sexual organ before emission of semen to avoid-conception). But we said: We are doing an act whereas Allah's Messenger is amongst us; why not ask him? So we asked Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him), and he said: It does not matter" (Sahih Muslim 3371)


* تفسير Tafsir al-Jalalayn
{ إِلاَّ عَلَىٰ أَزْوَاجِهِمْ أَوْ مَا مَلَكَتْ أَيْمَانُهُمْ فَإِنَّهُمْ غَيْرُ مَلُومِينَ }

except from their spouses, that is, to their spouses, and what [slaves] their right hands possess, that is, concubines, for then they are not blameworthy, in having sexual intercourse with them.



* تفسير Tanwîr al-Miqbâs min Tafsîr Ibn ‘Abbâs
{ إِلاَّ عَلَىٰ أَزْوَاجِهِمْ أَوْ مَا مَلَكَتْ أَيْمَانُهُمْ فَإِنَّهُمْ غَيْرُ مَلُومِينَ }

(Save from their wives) up to four wives (or the (slaves) that their right hands possess) without any limit in number, (for then they are not blameworthy) when they engage in that which is lawful,

SGM said...

@ Atheeq Ahmad,
It took me a while to get back to you but I want to reply to your earlier post to me.

I will go slow by slow and point by point so that you can understand. You state that “Thus has Allah ordained for you. All others are lawful, provided you seek them (with a dowry) from your property, ,,, it means u marry them”. Now lets take a look at the verse in its entirety and not chop it up and take it out of context. The beginning part of this verse states, “4:24. Also (forbidden are) women already married, except those (slaves) whom your right hands possess. Thus has Allah ordained for you. All others are lawful, provided you seek them (with a dowry) from your property, desiring chastity, not fornication…..” You failed to mention here is that the first half of this verse is talking about women who are forbidden. Lets go point by point so that you understand. There are two points I want to make.

1. A despicable Act of marrying already married slave girls. The first half of the verse says that women who are already married, you are not supposed to marry them with one exception. The exception is women whom your right hand possesses. One thing to notice here is that it is specifically talking about already married women which exclude married slave women. To make it simple for you so that you could understand, moslem men are not allowed to marry women that are already married but they can marry slave girls that are already married. We know this from the context of this verse which is found in the earlier verses 21-23. No religion in this world allows this despicable act but Islam. Even though I don’t believe that this aya has anything to do with marriage because the explanation found in Tafsir clearly states that it was revealed so that moslem men could have sex with their female captive women and is not about marrying them.

2. A despicable act of Adultery. This verse allows adultery at the same time. I am not sure if you understand what adultery means. To make it simple, it means to have sex with any woman who is not your wife. Tafsir al-Jalalayn, “And, forbidden to you are, wedded women, those with spouses, that you should marry them before they have left their spouses, be they Muslim free women or not; save what your right hands own, of captured [slave] girls, whom you may have sexual intercourse with, even if they should have spouses among the enemy camp”. What it is saying is that you can have sex with slave girls even if they have husbands. Only Islam, Allah and your prophet can allow this despicable sin. WHAT IS YOUR VERSION OF ADULTRY?

SGM said...

@ Atheeq Ahmad
cont.

My point in my previous post was that in the quran Allah and your prophet allows this heinous sin. And you came back with absurd explanation by chopping the verse and neglecting what the hadith and Tafsir are saying. No where in the explanation of this verse by your greatest scholars say that you have to marry them. And then you talk about speaking the truth. It seems like you are not even reading what you are posting. Then you go on to explain what “consequently” means. In which dictionary do you find the meaning to be “no brother it means after the ayah of prohibitted and law of dowry was reavelled,” Again, you are not even paying attention to what you are posting. Let me educate you on the meaning of it from Marriam dictionary. It means, “following as a result or effect, the conclusion of a conditional sentence”. So what it means is that when those slave women were captured, moslem men inquired of Mohammad whether they can have sex with them or not. At that time verse 4:24 came down and “consequently” as a result those captured women were raped. In the name of common sense, what would you call having sex with a married girl who was captured during a battle and whose husband is still alive. It is obvious, that you moslems don’t care about speaking the truth because it is embarrassing. You can only find truth in the risen Lord and Savior of the World Jesus Christ because He is the TRUTH. John 12:40 “He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.” I hope the the Lord Jesus Christ have mercy on you and that He open your eyes to see the truth. Know the TRUTH and the TRUTH shall set you free.

SGM said...

@ Atheeq Ahmad,
On another note, I am surprised that you posted something about Mut’ah. This is nothing more than legalized prostitution. Now as a moslem, you are going to argue that it is not. But in the name of common sense, what would you call marrying a girl for one hour for sex and reward her with money. Now per your post, even if it is prohibited now, the point is that it was allowed by your prophet at one time. What kind of prophet would allow this kind of prostitution and claim to be a prophet of the true and living God? Also, by your name I assume that you belong to Ahmidiya group? Am I right? I hope that you stick around and converse with Christians. This is the only way you are going to learn the TRUTH which is found only in Jesus Christ. You will also learn that Islam is not the true religion of the True and Living God. I hope that there is a small spark of truth somewhere down deep in your heart which is waiting to become a flame. It will only become a flame if you are seeking the truth honestly. And the TRUTH is the Lord JESUS CHRIST.

Staf said...

You people are not so different from these preachers. Both spread horrible lies.

Shame on You. The Saudi wahabis are monsters, not muslims

SGM said...

Where did all the moslems go who were going to teach us "slow by slow" and be patient with us.

Sadiq said...

@ atheeq, Tnx my brother in islam and surely Islam will conquer the world....
Will like to call to ur notice about what Allah says in the holy quran about people of this type (quran 30:9)
Do they not travel through the earth,and see what the End of those before them? They were superior to them in strength: they titled the soil and populated it in numbers than these have done: there came to them their messangers with clear (signs), (which they rejected, to their own destruction): it was not Allah who wronged them, but they wronged their own souls. And quran (30:10)
In the long run evil will be the End of those who do evil; for that they rejected the signs of Allah (God),and held them up to ridicule...

Like i said brother atheeq, i dont see to u wasting ur time with all dis bunch of loosers that has all been anwered in varies of islamic site eg anwering-christianity,islam_awareness etc but still they will never listen or open their heart up to the truth which they themself confirmed but just basically besause of the things of the world they still denie and ignore and lead so many fools like them astray.....
And lets get this straigth to U christians,u are all bunch of cowards and hypocrate that shows their face out to people in the world that u are nice and with ur senses and if truly dis is it why are u not facing the religion before urs in tackling and arguing with them on the Topic Jesus christ is frm God which they never accepted frm u fools rather u are figthing the religion that confirm his Office in prophethood and messanger to and frm God Almigthy........But if u are sure Paradise is in ur favour as u are now,Pls can i see any christian here pray to God to take his life so that he can go to heaven quick and enjoy the good pleasure over instead of been distracted again in this sinful,but u will nevere DARE.....BUT lets see who loose when that day comes (RECKONING DAY) The day God only will be the JUDGE of all and no human and not even part of his prophets and messangers (pbut) including prophet isa (jesus christ) (pBuh) will be a Co-judge but all will deliver what ever message he or she has been sent to do in this world.......Bro,continue with the abuse on the prophet and messanger of God but i bet with u if u dont change,u will taste it Bad for urself one day,,,,,,I dont v time to waste with u but i pray God Almigthy shld 4give me in all my previous sin,recent Sin and future ones,___but thou art indeed oft-dorgiving,Most Merciful.....
The message is clear and delivered to the best of my knowledge that I told and get u informed of the consequence of ur action but left for u to change and if u insist u will surely meet with ur LORD soon,dont be carried away by the WORLD,,,cos you knw all ur mis-interpretation and mis-quoting are form of jealousy (go and learn and get where ur scripture has altered and if u knw already ask ur scholars question and dont pretend to knw it all 'cos Paradise and Hell is real....
And again let me call ur attention to this,Allah is d name foe Almigthy God in Arabian language which ur christian folks use still till now in Arabia there, so dont it twisted when mentioning that ligthly,if u lik adhere and if u like dont,thats ur problem but i v done my part and i leave u to ur God and my God 'cos we all come from HIM only but we differ in this world through His permission..
God bless us All

Foolster41 said...

@Sadiq: That you think ansering-Christianity (Osama's site) is a good one is very telling. Osama is a paranoid bigot, and his site has been quite frequently refuted here.

Atheeq was answered with logic but you say it is everyone ELSE who is being suborn and dishonest?! Again, this is very telling. Instead of answering and showing where he is wrong you say you advise your brother to not waste his time! Yes, that's the intellectual and honest route! "I'm so right I don't have to prove it!"

Sadiq said...

@foolster41,,,u screen name said it all Foolster,let me make u understand ur peeps in anwering islam team are the biggest lier on the planet and they knw the truth but dont want to accept it,Ur holy book been altered times without numbers and with no author of who the bible is.....i will advice u to read both comment of the answering-christianity and islam with open minded not trying to back any religion,u will understand very clearly that the TRUTH shall stand out...tnx and God bless

Search 4 Truth said...

@ Sadeeq

Answering Christians is the biggest joke on the internet. Even Muslims criticize it. We present the evidence and then you deflect to the liar OSama who doesnt even show up for scheduled debates. You cant refute the evidence we present at all. And yet you cling to the lies of Osama without bringing one shred of evidence. Yes we know the truth! Because we present the truth, and then you deny it and deflect.

Now let me get this straight? Allah forgot to protect his previous teachings and let man corrupt them and get lost? What was Allah thinking? Did Allah not know that man would corrupt his teachings? How many times did Allah get it wrong before he realized he should protect his teachings? Was he forgetful or just dumb?

Dispute not with the People of the Book save in the fairer manner, except for those of them that do wrong; and say, 'We believe in what has been sent down to us, and what has been sent down to you; our God and your God is One, and to Him we have surrendered.' S. 29:46

This states that you are to believe in what was sent down to us.

So if Allah let it be corrupted why would Allah say such a thing? Was Allah lying again? Why would he direct you to consult us?

"They say, 'Why does he not bring us a sign from his Lord?' Has there not come to them the clear sign of what IS in the former scrolls?" S. 20:133

Truly it IS in the Scriptures of the ancients. Was it not a sign for them, that it is known to the learned of the Children of Israel? S. 26:196-197

The same commentary of Ibn Abbas states:

And truly it, the allusion to the Qur'an [that would be] revealed to Muhammad (s), IS in the Scriptures, the Books, of the ancients, such as the Torah and the Gospel.

So tell us who, when and how was Allahs eternal word corrupted? And why did it take Allah so many times to get it right? Whats wrong with that Allah? He doesnt have the foresight to see into the future and know that man will corrupt his word and it finally took the Quran to get it right? Poor Allah. Are you familiar with baseball? Do you think Allah would take a couple of swings at the ball before he hit it out of the park? LOL! SO ABSURD!

Foolster41 said...

",let me make u understand ur peeps in anwering islam team are the biggest lier on the planet and they knw the truth but dont want to accept it"
Ok, You're going to make me understand - in what way are they lying? They seem to be quoting from the Hadiths and Quoran, and quote muslims who quote those hadiths and Quoran violently, and when I read them for myself it seems the ones who are reazding it correctly are the terrorists. of course, telling me I'm wrong isn't the same as explaining! Muslims make this claim frequently, but never substanbtiate it. And even if they are misinterpreting the Quroan/Hadiths, maybe you should spend so much of your time, you know, convincing your co-religionists that interpret the quoran/Hadiths the same way. That might be nice, the whole slay and subjegate the Kuffir thing? It's not exactly helping the "religion of peace" thing. Let me know how that goes.

"r holy book been altered times without numbers and with no author of who the bible is.."
one question: Was this altered before or after Mohammad? Maybe you didn't know, but our bible we have today are from copies from 200 years BEFORE Mohammad was born. And wee do know the authors, among them were historical people such as were Matthew, Peter and John (followers of Jesus and eyewtinesses during his life) and those who knew the eyewitnesses such as Luke and Paul. so these are two a false arguments from ignorance about the history of the bible, yet I'm the fool and being dishonest!

"...i will advice u to read both comment of the answering-christianity and islam with open minded not trying to back any religion,"
Ahh, yes it MUST be because I'm a bigoted Christian. I mean, that argument couldn't POSSIBLY go both ways and I could say you're refusing to acknowledge to accept scholarly critisim because of a bias towards Islam! Nope! (By the way this is called a ad honim argument)

But really, Osama is no scholar. I sat that not because of bigotry but facts. He has frequently used logical fallacies and outright blatent falsehoods and slanders (including against me), so once again that you continue to defend AC just shows you're not being very honest! I'd be happy to hear logical refutations to the things here! I don't think the people here object to muslims criticizing their articles in the comments. Give some examples!

Sadiq said...

@ both of u (foolster and search 4 truth) surely the message has been delivered to u and i bear witness of it,and am even very happy u v the knowledge of it but just show to be arrogant towards them,,,,i leave u to ur believe and Our God, u and I creator...... What will i debate and argue with when all ur lies has been refuted by so many islamic site,it makes no difference cos u have shown to be learned but never wants to accept...And again u knw ur bible has been altered by so many unknown authors,,,,,u make me laugh self,,,when ur so called christian theologian even accept it openly that ur so called holy book has passed thriugh so many altreration and ur bible itself confirm this in jeremiah 8:8,u said Osama abdalah is not a scholar but yet he shows the like of david wood,samuel green,sam shamoun the way to be followed when ever they lie on their site about islam,,,,,and its so disgusting self when u see missionary like urs asking people to donate in order to promote the missionary,,,funny tru cheque,,,u people are there basically because of the flow of cash that has been coming in to the missionary (http://www.answering-islam.org/donate.html),,,hmmm its this the kind of missionary u run,,,,,U people still failed to answer my question,which was Did u ever face the jew to make accept that jesus was frm God but never will u but to run after the religion that the Messanger (pbuh) confirm his prophethood...well its end time really and thats the way it is u will only deceive with shady heart with all ur lies and deciet.
And what prove do u need frm me when all all needed has been explained to u deligently and accurately but u choose to be arrogant towards the truth......and i hope am done with u guys and i leave u to God of the world who is One and has no son nor was he born by anything......And let me save u frm torment in the hereafter 'cos u wont be able to denie this, the name Allah is God's unique name and Arab chriatians in their bible refer to God as Allah themself,so dont be ignorant,'cos jesus (pbuh) never speak english when he he was on earth....bye to what u knw but stick to mislead fools that are not ready to think...

Foolster41 said...

Welp, none of that is proof of how Answering-Muslims or myself are lying or wrong, and Jerimiah was written BEFORE Mohammad was born. You still the problem that Mohammad claims to be a fulfillment of the bible/OT and yet was born AFTER what he clearly contradicts, and what we have today is from records BEFORE he was born, so unless someone went back in time to change it, the bible we have today is the SAME as the one Mohammad had. You don't answer this, but then try to say *I* am the dishonest one! Also, Jereimiah doesn't say WHICH book are changed. You are misrepresenting that verses.

You refuse to present proof (because I'm "ignorant") to make your case (how scholarly!), so I guess this conversation is over. Bye.

Search 4 Truth said...

@ Sadiq

Well if what you say is true and all of our facts are lies why dont you try disproving them? I know. Because you cant. So the name calling begins. this is what occurs when Muslims cannot answer or refute the factual evidence presented. Why should we be concerned with the Jews? They are not commanded to fight all non Jews for all eternity. And their book is the Torah. So whats the relevance here? Why is it that Muslims always deflect to the Jews?

What exactly has been proven to us diligently and accurately? I havent seen it? All your doing is making assertions with no evidence to substantiate your claims. In fact the kafre are the ones who presented the vast majority of the evidence.

Now all your doing is calling names and telling us we are liars etc... But we are the ones who presented the evidence! Its the same thing every time with every Muslim.

And you hjavent answered anything. I show you the logical fallacy of saying that God forgot to protect his message and then you go off on us because we dont accept your ridiculous assertions!

Why did God forget to protect his previous message? You dont see the absurdity of that claim. You have to be willfully ignorant to make such a ridiculous assertion. Its REMARKABLY STUPID!

Sadiq said...

@ search 4 truth,u sound so ridiculous and low in competing in this type debate and that was what makes people like us (muslim) to be different from u all hypocrate,,,check out what u said (Why shld we be concerned with the jews? They are not commanded to figth all non jews to gain eternity) that shows hypocracy on ur side,,cos this set of people belittle ur so call incarnate god (jesus),get this straigth to ur head,don't need to start drawing fact and prove u have been reading for so many times and what different will it makes 'cos u are only pretending not to accept the truth but selling ur soul miserably for the gain of this world,,,,ur problem...(Ie..u and ur colleague of lairs have been refuted so many times in all islamic site,so why shld I start all over again with since u are not ready to change ur ways in leading fools like u astray and that was the reason why I told Atheeq to stop wating his time with u guys and look for people ready to listen to the real conversation and not people that twist God's words and His prophet (pbuh) sayings to convince the masses and fools that are much more connected to the ways they worship....And mr u can see how deligently we write and humble ourselfs before God almigthy tru His prophets,we don't dis-regard any of His prophet we respect and give them the honour dew but to ur side I can imagine one stupid so called David wood telling Osama abdallah that Prophet Abrham was wrong for lieing to the king of egypt SARAH was not his wife but his sister,,,imagine hw senseless that is and what rigth does that Gay and tattoed so called missioner has in judging the the prophet of the Almigthy God,,,he will explain to creator on the reckoning day and he is still free to roll his tongue withing the passage of his dirty mouth. U said so and I never said God 4get to protect His previous message and that alone his known to Him but truly,the quran confirmed the so many alterations made by human being in order to suit ttheir style of living in the world,,,I think Osama Abdallah explained some reasons why but he never quoted anybody and I think he was just making suggestions and if u care to read that,go to google and type Answering-christianity on why God allows for the bible to get corrupted. And am sure u v read that before but u still prove sturborn after that and for enquiry on that hope u will have to die and wait till the judgement when the Almigthy show everybody where we all differs....

Mr search4truth, can pls Explain to me here Who ishmeal in ur bible (pbuh) was in Genesis 21:14-12..........A baby or A teenager?????? Explain delegently......I know u will change to ur snake style now and u will start to raise abuses...pls simple question and give me an answer He is a baby or he is a teenager,,,pls don't exxplain and I will be the one to ask u what u will give answers to next and bye

Sadiq said...

@foolster,,,,,,,,,

Am starting with the name of the Almigthy God,the beneficient and the Merciful,,,,God pls 4give me 4 all the errors made intentionally and ones made unknowingly, and what ever I write that suit the eyes of the readers are by the Almigthy God and whatever mistake made is of Me,God pls forgive me always,,,Amen.
U will surprised rigth that's because u are not and don't think u will be willing to leave ur type of worship to the of One God and not three and as u know we ask for 4giveness always for the past,present andn future sins we commited 'cos we are human and OUR prophet (pbuh) never came to this world to die for our Sin but AS A WARNER to every mankind,u knw u are sinless (lols) just because u believe someone came to this world to die 4 ur sin and u are free to enjoy ur life now and the hereafter,,,,,ur problem...
U said My prophet (pbuh) said he was fortold in the old testament and u said that has been written down 200yrs before he was born rigth? Let me ask u one simple question,do u expect it to be written 200yrs after he had left this world in ur bible (u must be sick).

And let me correct u here again prophet muhammed (pbuh) never had any bible with him nor ever for read it and so much good he was unletttered,so I advice u type well in other not contracdict urself the way ur bible always do..

U sadi jer 8:8 never mentioned any specific book altered, cheap talk from u,let me ask u,,,which book was with the jew then (physic textbook,chemistry,biology etc) I advice u to be sincere with urself even prophet musa (moses) (pbuh) predicted that his book will be altered by them after him and here u are typing rubbish with ur fingers,no wonder why they keep overcomin ur peeps in debate and at the end they insult whosever that goes on debate with them (cheap talks and write up)

Pls make my brain goes verily,will like u to show me a verse in the bible that confirm the prophethood or apostleship of PAUL by jesus and show me where jesus predicted saul conversion to paul to serve him later and may be u cld help me out with this was he part of the families of Prophet Abraham (pbuh),,,,,,pls wld like to knw? May be this will make me change to be a christian that will star worshiping the creation of the CREATOR, I knw u too will change ur normal being now to a snake like,,,,,,,,,bye and hope u knw the truth ((((Lols)))) ISLAM will conquer the world soon,just relax and watch ,it will definitely to pass,no doubt about it and keep urself away from ur New world order govenment (satanist claiming to be a true God worshipper).....Truth is bitter

Sadiq said...

And to both,,I said which prove do u need more,,u v been shown prove times without numbers by so many muslims, islamic site etc, will it now be my own prove that will penetrate tru ur money making missionary congress,since all the hadith and quranic verse u are presenting its been mis-interpreted to fools arround like u to read.....May be u wait till Allah (God) shows the prove to you within ur immediate family and I am free from what u worship as partner with the only One and unique God Almigthy....

Sadiq said...

Quran chap 41 v 53 says

We will show them our signs in the horizons and within themselves until it becomes clear to them that it is the truth. But it is not suFficient concerning ur lord that He is,over all things, a witness?
Hold a little bit All of u, the sign will reflect soon in ur family and u will be surprise.....
And a question again, is david wood,sam shamoun and co SCHOLARS ? Fools u don't look at urself b4 bringing up topiC,,,,,,,,bigoted peeps(biological Sons indeed,sound ridiculous to the Status of the Almigthy ONE......God will show u Himself soon but first answer my question?

Search 4 Truth said...

@ Sadeeq

This is what is so funny. You actually think your making a point. But your not at all. I dont care what people say. I care about what they are commanded to do and what they actually do. Who cares if they say insulting things about Jesus! Thats on them. My concern is how Islamic doctrine commands Muslims to subjugate or slaughter all non Muslims and the fact that Muslims are attempting to implement this backward , fascist, bigoted, intolerant, violent, misogynistic ideology on the world.

You keep telling me that all of these arguments have been refuted on websites yet you cant refute anything yourself. Instead you attack us. Which is what one has to do when they cannot refute or engage in a dialog on specific topics. You just deflect, like you do to the Jews. And then you call names, which you have done, and then you claim that everything we have presented as evidence is wrong and that it has all been refuted. But you dont bring any evidence to substantiate your claims!

David has every right to expose Muslims and Mohamed hypocrisy! Your callaing David gay when David never wore womens clothing to recieve the message of his God. David never sucked the tongues and lips of boys! But you ignore what mohamed did and condemn David for using satire to make a point. Your so backward its scary. And your a Hypocrite just like Mohamed was.

We dont accept Mohamed as a Prophet! And we do not make things up. We provide the evidence!

then the prophet said to her, “Do not hurt me with Aisha, for the inspiration did not come upon me when I was in a women's garment [fee thawb imra’ah] except that of Aisha.”[1]
Sahih Bukhari 2393

“O Um Salama! Do not hurt me with Aisha; for by Allah, the inspiration did not descent on me while I was in the coverings (lihaf) of any of you (women) except Aisha.”[2]
Sahih Bukhari 3941

Narrated 'Aisha: A bedouin came to the Prophet and said, "You (people) kiss the boys! We don't kiss them." The Prophet said, "I cannot put mercy in your heart after Allah has taken it away from it."
Sahih Bukhari 8:73:27

Narrated by Hisham Ibn Kasim, narrated by Huraiz, narrated by Abdul Rahman Ibn Abu Awf Al Jarashy, and narrated by Mua’wiya who said, “I saw the prophet (pbuh) sucking on the tongue or the lips of Al-Hassan son of Ali, may the prayers of Allah be upon him . For no tongue or lips that the prophet sucked on will be tormented (by hell fire).[4]
Musnad Ahmad - Hadith No. 16245

Search 4 Truth said...

@ Sadeeq

YOUR THE ONE WHO IS ABUSIVE AND CALLING NAMES! But then you attack me and thats ok, but I tell the truth about Mohamed with references and thats wrong and you call it an abuse! This is incredible! and i dont even comprehend your question concerning Ishmael. What relevance does that have to anything?

Sadiq said...
And to both,,I said which prove do u need more,,u v been shown prove times without numbers by so many muslims, islamic site etc, will it now be my own prove that will penetrate tru ur money making missionary congress,since all the hadith and quranic verse u are presenting its been mis-interpreted to fools around like u to read..

Where and when were we shown the proof.

Look I can say the same thing to you.

Sadeeq you have been shown so many times by so many Christians that everything you believe is a lie, how many times do you need to be shown it? You can go to answering Islam and see that everything you have said has been disproven.

THATS NOT AN ARGUMENT YOU MORON! What country are you from? What kind of education do you have? This is like speaking to a neanderthal.

And OSAMA ABDULLAH IS A LAUGING STOCK! he cherry picks and yuses confirmation bias! Just liek yourself. Whenever something from your Quran, hadith or tafsirs differs from what you want it to say you dismiss it! And look for something unrelated and try and apply it to the topic! its pathetic. You dont even realize how stupid your arguments are. Thats whats so remarkable!

Search 4 Truth said...

I dont even understand your question. You make no sense! Its scary how unintelligible and illogical your assertions and excuses are! You are deflecting from the original topic and bringing up all sorts of nonsense! And you never even answered one single thin. NEVER! Everything you tried to respond to was 100% refuted with evidence from YOUR Quran, YOUR Hadith, and YOUR tafsirs! And you whine and cry and say that all the answers are on Islamic sites!

Well congratulations. You have just failed miserably! You NEVER answered anything, and provided NO evidence! All you did was ramble on with your pathetic excuses with =out any type of substantiation! Your suffering from cognitive dissonance and the Dunning - Kruger effect!

Search 4 Truth said...

Here since you want to deflect to the clown Osoama Abdullah. Who is even a laughing stock in the Islamic community! I will send you here for your answer. Unlike you I actually will provide a response instead of deflecting.

http://www.answering-islam.org/BibleCom/gen21-14.html

Go read it. And if you want contradictions and scientific errors in the Quran i can post you hundreds of them. Have fun denying reality and living your lie!

Foolster41 said...

@Sariq:

"U will surprised rihgt that's because u are not andg don't think u will be willing to leave ur type of worship to the of One God and not three"
We don't worship three gods, we worship God with three aspects.

" OUR prophet (pbuh) never came to this world to die for our Sin but AS A WARNER to every mankind,u knw u are sinless (lols) just because u believe someone came to this world to die 4 ur sin and u are free to enjoy ur life now and the hereafter,,,,,ur problem..."
Again, this isn't proof, this is just saying you disagree and laughing ("lol") at what we beleive, but not proving or disproving anything.

"Let me ask u one simple question,do u expect it to be written 200yrs after he had left this world in ur bible (u must be sick)."
This makes no sense and doesn't answer the problem. Let me say it simply: A.The bible was written (both old and NT), B.Mohammad 200 years later claimed to be fulfilling the bible, C.He contracted the bible D.Thus Muslism claim the bible was corrupted. E.But since where we get the bible is from BEFORE Mohammad was even born, the claim of corruption makes no sense since the bible we have today is THE SAME as the one Mohammad would have access to.
This is called logic. You just spout a nonsense question (obviously he wouldn't claim to be fulfilling a book that came after him) and once again insults.

"And let me correct u here again prophet muhammed (pbuh) never had any bible with him nor ever for read it and so much good he was unletttered,so I advice u type well in other not contracdict urself the way ur bible always do.."

Ok. So then when he claimed to fulfil the bible he had no idea what was in it? That actually makes perfect sense since what he says completely contradicts the bible. Thus, Muslims cannot then make any claim about Mohammad fulfiling the bible! But I'm the one contradicting myself (What I said about Mohammad contradicting the bible above is true and isn't a contradiction)

RE Jer8:8, he's talking about the INTERPRETATION of the law. Even if you're right, this doesn't make Mohammad's claim make sense, since as I said Jerimiah came LONG before Mohammad was born, and is the SAME Jerrimiah I have in my bible. Thus, unless there are time traveling Zionists who went back and changed it, the "corruption" claim makes no sense!

"And to both,,I said which prove do u need more,"
You still havn't given proof, just nonsense and insults.

Foolster41 said...

"u sound so ridiculous and low in competing in this type debate and that was what makes people like us (muslim) to be different from u all hypocrate,"

" ISLAM will conquer the world soon,just relax and watch ,it will definitely to pass,no doubt about it"

Hmm. I get the idea that you're not one of those peaceful muslims.

So you're telling us we're wrong about Islam, that it's peaceful, then fine. Which MUSLIMS have you told this to? you've come here to convince us, but what about your violent supremiscist co-coreligionists that are being reported on, even here in the west (and why non-Muslims find it hard to believe Islam is peaceful?) Which sites do you go to? How successful have you been? If you haven't why not?

Sadiq said...

@foolster,,what does that english means,,,we worship God with three aspect,,,Funny,where in the bible does jesus christ said u shld worship God with aspect???,,and what dis? He contracted the bible??like I said to u earlier he nevers contacted ur so called corrupted bible for revelationnpoint of correction,,,can u read well,he is unlettered and never had access to ur bible self,,so stop braging about wat u don't knw manh,Did u even attend any high school at all?

Search 4 Truth said...

@ Sadeeq


You obviously know nothing Of Islam or Christianity!

MOHAMED OPENS THE TORAH!


Bukhari 4.829

Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Umar:

The Jews came to Allah's Apostle and told him that a man and a woman from amongst them had committed illegal sexual intercourse. Allah's Apostle said to them, "What do you find in the Torah (old Testament) about the legal punishment of Ar-Rajm (stoning)?" They replied, (But) we announce their crime and lash them." Abdullah bin Salam said, "You are telling a lie; Torah contains the order of Rajm." They brought and opened the Torah and one of them solaced his hand on the Verse of Rajm and read the verses preceding and following it. Abdullah bin Salam said to him, "Lift your hand." When he lifted his hand, the Verse of Rajm was written there. They said, "Muhammad has told the truth; the Torah has the Verse of Rajm. The Prophet then gave the order that both of them should be stoned to death. ('Abdullah bin 'Umar said, "I saw the man leaning over the woman to shelter her from the stones."


Bukhari 6.12

Narrated Abu Huraira:

The people of the Scripture (Jews) used to recite the Torah in Hebrew and they used to explain it in Arabic to the Muslims. On that Allah's Apostle said, "Do not believe the people of the Scripture or disbelieve them, but say:-- "We believe in Allah and what is revealed to us."

(from Ibn Ishaq, page 267)

"Salh b. Kaisan from Nafi freedman of Abdullah b. Umar from Abdullah b. Umar, told me: When the apostle gave judgment about them he asked for a Torah. A rabbi sat there reading it having put his hand over the verse of stoning. Abdullah b. Salam struck the rabbi's hand, saying, "this, O prophet of God, is the verse of stoning which he refused to read to you." ............ The apostle said; "I am the first to revive the order from God and His book and to practice it." They were duly stoned and Abdullah b. Umar said, "I was among those that stoned them."

From Bukhari: 4.605:

Narrated 'Aisha: The Prophet returned to Khadija while his heart was beating rapidly. She took him to Waraqa bin Naufal who was a Christian convert and used to read the Gospels in Arabic Waraqa asked (the Prophet),..

From Bukhari: 6.478:

Narrated Aisha: (the wife of the Prophet) The commencement (of the Divine Inspiration) to Allah's Apostle was in the form of true dreams in his sleep, for he never had a dream but it turned out to be true and clear as the bright daylight......Khadija then took him to Waraqa bin Naufil, the son of Khadija's paternal uncle. Waraqa had been converted to Christianity in the Pre-Islamic Period and used to write Arabic and write of the Gospel in Arabic as much as Allah wished him to write.

Sadeeq every single thing you said is false/ EVERYTHING! All you have is name calling and denial.

Sadiq said...

@search4truth, Mr u are just braging also,pls answer the simple question which u claim to knw but try to ignore,,in Genesis 21: 14-21,,read dat for urself in ur bible and tell me who ishmael was, Was ishmeal a baby the when they were been lead by abraham or was he a teenager then.....let's say for the sake of argument we are done with wat u keep asking for that has been answered by atheeq self even without referencin to all islamic site that has refuted u bigotten sons and daugthers of ur nation,I still tell u it makes no sence arguing that with u again...this is my own question to u too answer or get out of my way...God knows if u ever attended any sch earlier...U people don't want the expose of ur altered bible but yet u mis-interprete every verse and hadith u lay ur smelling tot on,,,if u will prefer me to begin with contraction in ur bible,am very sure u will cry at last,,I keep telling u that all scientific fact in the quran has been proving to be genuine on like ur so called bible that says the earth is flat and so on, and have u for once attended any sch at all instead of u pretending to belive ur bible scientific flaws are rigth,,,,get off the way,u v no fact bro......never u mind my country cos u are living a country that tends to corrupt the whole world with their New world order system,,,,,u are free to bark on and as long as u don't bite me and get me infected with ur lies,,No problem

And u said Osama has always been in conflict with his so called muslim mate but they still admire to be with him and for that its none of ur problem,so far he is bestowed with knowledge and understanding from the God of the universe we are gd with him and we will keep supporting him,,,attend to what pinches u in ur shoe....(Was ismael a baby or a teenager in gen 21:14-21) simple questuion, ur foolishness and hypocracy u learn frm ur so called self aclaimed apostle paul will never let u to be sincere to ursef,,Money making missioners......Out of the way and bye 4 life if sieze not answer dat question

Sadiq said...

@sarch4truth
If I said decided not reply,u will believe u have won and make me go silence on having nothing to say to what u just wrote here again on the mis-representation of all Hadiths u listed....
In all this Hadith listed,where in it all it was written that The holy prophet muhammad (pbuh) read out the law to them himself ? He was always asking them on what and which law they have with them in their scripture which basically will let u know that he was been informed always by the Angel from God (angel gabriel),this is a simple logic that needs no argument on bro and hope u are ok with it and if not wait till then when u get to heaven,u will be make to understand how it was done then....
And waraqa,,,was a very old learnt Man those days that knows much well about the scripture then and was actually expecting and believes in the last prophet to come that is prophesized in ur scripture,he only listen to the holy prophet statesment and he said to him u v been chosen for the duty of prophethood to the Almigthy God 'cos he said to him this was how the oher previous prophet and messangers of God received their revelations also and that was all,does that make him to had read the bible then,,Get this to ur head bro he is an illiterate that knew nothing about reading nor writing before he started receiving revelations from the Lord of the world through malayka jubril......So Mr, my prophet (pbuh) for once had never opened ur book to read frm nor did he have a copy of so called holy book with him,,,Mr this is simple,if he had taken one for himself then,he wld definitely been exposed by jews that are very interlect pretending to accept islam then that are always keeping an eye on him,may be he is been taugth the bible or may be he normally gets information from it......But all their effort then was fruitless and this set of people are more intelligent than u and ur so called missionary moving spreading and mis-interpreting every hadith u lay ur hands on.....Tot u said u were well schooled (professor),can pls tell me in all this Hadith quoted by you,where it says the holy prophet (pbuh) reads the law out to them to hear??????will be pleased if u can underline the statement out,,,,,And u are ignoring my question,,,,I lv u to Our Creator....Bye

Sadiq said...

@foolster
Am very sure dis cld be my last message to you 'cos I see that u v no knowledge of even ur religion well come to talk of others, Mr, answer the question I asked u or u keep quiet and get urself confused,,Ur so called brother on here still have a little knowledge of what is saying but let's just he is biazed (search4truth) but u, go and read well or u don't waste ur time defending what u don't knw basically besically bcos of the hatred inplanted in u abt islam since u were born. Like it is said here (Your comment will be visible after approval) u said we muslims are always are violent and ur cause of living in pain in ur so called Western region,,like the statement I put in the bracket,when the time reaches ur govt. Will exposed cause they know about them all and ur Media are in full support of this in painting islam bad while covering all other stories that needs to be reported,so far so good,that happens to be non of my biz,'cos when the time reaches God Almigthy Himself will reveal Himself to u people living in ur shadows from the West......life of this world has covered u to extent that God words can never easily penetrate tru brians.

Keep enjoyin, we all have limited time to use on this earth surface after thatdeath and judgement DAY, we will all be Summoned b4 OUR CREATOR...Bye and if u care to answer what I asked u,I will be very glad to learn frm u,and if I had raised abused. And shit on u earlier,,,I said to u pls find a space in ur heart to 4give me and u free to believe in what so ever u believe on but just want to be u hear the message but u said no to it ...........Bro I will never create partner or partners for the Almigthy God,,,,'cos He is ONE,He is ALLAH..thanks and God bless U in ur doings bye once more

Sadiq said...

And to all other peeps v offended on here,sorry is the reply to u.....
But I believe in Allah, what He has revealed to US. I pray almigthy God opens ur heart to the truth..........and if u are not satified with the sorry,think u will have to wait till judgement Day then....U have the rigth to ur opinion but can never impose urs on me but I can easily make u see things frm side peacefully than the way it been presented to u violently...Islam is not the problem but the people trying to bring it down and which is not possible......the more u try that,the more people goes into enquiry into the Quran and find the truth and their its been opend to accept it,,,hold on u will see soon,islam will take over without sheding any single blood,,,,am out with Peace from my and ur CREATOR.....

Search 4 Truth said...

@ Sadeeq

First of all I never claimed I know everything. Where did i say I claim to know the answer to everything? You are deflecting away from the topic. Because you could not answer anything. You were refuted. Now you bring up some unrelated topic in the hopes to save face. Do you want me to start bringing up dozens and dozens of different topics than the one we are discussing?

This is pathetic. I can bring up all kinds of topics. You NEVER ANSWERED ANY OF THE QUESTIONS PRESENTED TO YOU!

NEVER! You are deflecting. And I showed you where to go for the answer. Do you want me to copy and paste the entire response?

HERE IS THE ANSWER! http://www.answering-islam.org/BibleCom/gen21-14.html

It was a translation. I can show you the same thing with translations of the Quran. You think you have an argument but all it comes down to is different translations. Nice try at deflecting!

Surah al-Hujurat (49:13)
Sarwar
People, We have created you all male and female and have made you nations and tribes so that you would recognize each other. The most honorable among you in the sight of God is the most pious of you. God is All-knowing and All-aware.

Pickthall
O mankind! Lo! We have created you male and female, and have made you nations and tribes that ye may know one another. Lo! the noblest of you, in the sight of Allah, is the best in conduct. Lo! Allah is Knower, Aware.


Yusuf Ali
O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other (not that ye may despise (each other). Verily the most honoured of you in the sight of God is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And God has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things).

Shakir
O you men! surely We have created you of a male and a female, and made you tribes and families that you may know each other; surely the most honorable of you with Allah is the one among you most careful (of his duty); surely Allah is Knowing, Aware.

Sher Ali
O mankind, WE have created you from a male and a female; And WE have made you tribes and sub-tribes that you may know one another. Verily, the most honourable among you, in the sight of ALLAH, is he who is the most righteous among you. Surely, ALLAH is All-Knowing, All-Aware.

Rashad Khalifa
O people, we created you from the same male and female, and rendered you distinct peoples and tribes, that you may recognize one another. The best among you in the sight of GOD is the most righteous. GOD is Omniscient, Cognizant.


Gender difference or descendency from the first couple?

Created as male and female
or
created from a male and a female?

Now tell us about your corrupted Quran.

See your to dumb to understand any response/ Andf you NEVER answered anything. In fact you were refuted in every single topic! EVERYTHING! And you dont respond to anything,. i presented the evidence of mohamed with the Torah after you said he didnt have it. And what do you have to say about it?
NOTHING! You ignore it. You dont think you have to respond! And then all you wanna do is deflect to somewhere that you think you may have an argument! This is pathetic and unscholarlay and a rude attempt at deflection! You have NO integrity!

Search 4 Truth said...

@ Sadeeq Prove that we have misinterpreted anything. We have brought the Quran , the hadth and the tafsirs that all corroborate each other! And yet you completely ignore it and say that we misinterpret it without any evidence to prove your assertion. You are pathetic. YOU NEVER ANSWERED ANYTHING ! NOT ONE SINGLE THING! Saying we misinterpreted it is not a response! Your absurd!

Every single thing we bring you ignore and just cling to the lies your Imaams tell you. Yet you cant answer anything. Go to the site and read the response! I can show you internal contradictions in your Quran like the one I previously produced. You are deflecting!

Who suffers loss if Muhammad was wrong? Sura 34:50 commands Muhammad to say, "If I go astray, I go astray only to my own loss," which is a severe factual error in the Qur'an as well as contradicting the teaching of the Qur'an in a number of other verses.

Allah, Adam, and the Angels. There are a great number of problems and inconsistencies between the several accounts of Adam's creation, Allah's command to prostrate before Adam, Satans refusal, etc.

Who Was the First Muslim? Muhammad [6:14, 163], Moses [7:143], some Egyptians [26:51], or Abraham [2:127-133, 3:67] or Adam, the first man who also received inspiration from Allah [2:37]?

Can Allah be seen and did Muhammad see his Lord? Yes [S. 53:1-18, 81:15-29], No [6:102-103, 42:51].

Were Warners Sent to All Mankind Before Muhammad? Allah had supposedly sent warners to every people [10:47, 16:35-36, 35:24],

Abraham and Ishmael are specifically claimed to have visited Mecca and built the Kaaba [2:125-129]. Yet, Muhammad supposedly is sent to a people who never had a messenger before [28:46, 32:3, 34:44, 36:2-6]. This article also raises other issues: What about Hud and Salih who supposedly were sent to the Arabs? What about the Book that was supposedly given to Ishmael? Etc.

What will be the food for the people in Hell? The food for the people in Hell will be only "Dhari" [Sura 88:6], or only foul pus from the washing of wounds [S. 69:36], or will they also get to eat from the tree of Zaqqum [S. 37:66]? Together, these verses constitute three contradictions.

Can Angels Cause the Death of People? The Qur'an attacks those who worship anyone besides God (e.g. angels or prophets) because those can neither create, nor give life, nor cause anyone to die. Yet, the Qur'an explicitly states that one angel or several angels are causing certain people to die [Sura 4:97, 16:28, 32, 32:11].

Search 4 Truth said...


'Iddah rules for divorced and widowed women appear to be arbitrary and inconsistent.
Is there a minimum age of marriage for girls?

Will Allah reward the good deeds of Unbelievers? S. 9:17 and 9:69 clearly say no. However, S. 99:7 implies yes. Moreover, S. 2:62 promises Christians reward for their good deeds. But S. 9:28-33; 5:17, 72-73 calls Christians idolaters, and S. 9:17 is very clear that idolaters will have no reward.

Should Muslims show kindness to their parents? On the one hand, the Quran commands all Muslims to show kindness to their parents, even if they are disbelievers [17:23-24, 31:14-15, 29:8, etc.]. On the other hand, it demands not to show any love or friendship to those who oppose Muhammad, even if they are their parents [9:23, 58:22].

And it just doesn't add up: Sura 4:11-12 and 4:176 state the Qur'anic inheritance law. When a man dies, and is leaving behind three daughters, his two parents and his wife, they will receive the respective shares of 2/3 for the 3 daughters together, 1/3 for the parents together [both according to verse 4:11] and 1/8 for the wife [4:12] which adds up to more than the available estate. A second example: A man leaves only his mother, his wife and two sisters, then they receive 1/3 [mother, 4:11], 1/4 [wife, 4:12] and 2/3 [the two sisters, 4:176], which again adds up to 15/12 of the available property.

You have No integrity whatsoever! All you do is deflect and throw insults when confronted with the problems of Islam! Not one single answer from you! Not One! Hypocrite! Just like Mohamed!

Foolster41 said...

"u said we muslims are always are violent "
Of course, I never said such a thing! (please point out where I did) But of course we're the terribly dishonest ones! SHAME ON US!

"He contracted the bible??like I said to u earlier he nevers contacted ur so called corrupted bible for revelationnpoint of correction,"
So you're saying Islam is completely unrelated to Judeism and Christianity (strange since I hear so often that Islam is an abrahamic faith from Muslim scholars!)? You're saying that Mohammad NEVER said anything about Moses and Jesus and claimed to be a prophet that was a contenueation of their teaching? This is of course false, and easily disproven. Please read Q. 7:103-107. Moses was a prophet no one listen to, so then came Mommad. I don't see how it can be ANY CLEARER. "And Allah will teach him the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel." (Q. 3:48). Hmm. Here it says God will teach the law (Torrah) and the Gospels. But then how is it that Mohammad never claimed to be fulfilling those? How does it make sense to uphold those things if they contradict what God is teaching in the Quoran? As I already said, the "corrupted" claim makes no sense, since what we have today is the SAME as in Mohhmad's time when this verse was revealed. Thus, Islam is false. Your claim makes NO SENSE! ZERO!

Moses and Jesus are mentioned a MANY number of times possitively. Mohammad claims Jesus will be a final arbatur of Justice. What you say puts you at complete odds with EVERY SINGLE major Islamic school and scholar. In other words, you are commiting innovation, and that makes you a heretic, a kuffr!

Please don't answer if you're going to write half-coherent insults, this was your last chance, and I won't answer you if you do. Give actually proof for your claims!

Sadiq said...

@foolster, I tot I told u that u v low level of thinking earlier,why can't u check 4 urself where u write it urself that (but what about ur violent supremiscist co-coregionist that are been reported on), well u v ur time for ueself,,,but why all dis bragingin answer my question first?

Sadiq said...

@search4truth,,all this u are bringing up are not what they call contracdiction and it will never be,but am not ready for ur hide and sik game u are playing here,,I can see it in u rigth frm the the start u depend so much on the false information u will get from answering isam site,but if u will care to listen I cld easily copy and paste their respon to those question u tabled down now to u but it makes no sense since u knw all have been refuted young mag (for every reader on here go to anwering christianity on ever topic he brougth up and get there how seriously his masters of lairs are been refuted on this topics he brougth up) my dear brother the holy Quran is free from curruption and alteration. Stop arguing and answer my question,just very simple one (is ismael a baby or a teenager in gen 21:14-21),,u brrougth some hadith up now I answered without having stress on it but for u to answer this that comes from the part of about over 2000 errors in ur bible,u are braging bring up anoda when u v not answered mine...U knw I called u hypocrate and u are..

Pls keep on with ur mis-information about the religion which is called ISLAM,'cos ur attitude towards the religion is really helping the religion in growing fast and more......u said I didn't answer the topic u brougth up which was wat,u v been answered even here,so are u now sayin if some other muslim come up here now to ask u questions about ur altered bible u won't answer either than to start claiming he shld answer the question that has been answered already,,,RUbbish,I see u making claims but that to me it just a waste of time with u,,,,Ishmeal baby or a teenager in Gen 21:14-21....am still on just a question that still have a lot and branches of questions u still need to answer but still u are riding away from it instead bringing about another set of question when I already answered ur 1st personal question to me on the hadith my prophet (pbuh) reading the binle earlier...

I have nothing to be worried of 'cos my holy is perfect and perfect it will be forever......just answer my question or u keep shut and mislead some others with shady heart ,which is all u people do all the time...
ANSWERING ISLAM team,I need to commend u guys for the bad work u think u are doing to islam which is proudly appreciated by me, 'cos ur so called bad work is a very good and energizer work for non-muslim to know which is the religion of the alimigthy God..Cos with people like ur site makes ISLAM grows heavily each day,,tnx once more but wldnt knw what ur Lord and my Lord will commend u with,,,,He is d final judge,,,bye

Sadiq said...

@foolster,I can easily see hw ur level of thinking is,prophet muhammed contacting the bible just because of jesus and moses (pbut),u don't even knw anything U, u better go bak to ur answering islam site or what site u people migth again to read well b4 coming up here.......how many times will it come to ur head that He was receiving Revelations form UR Lord and my Lord (God) through angel gabriel,so are uu now saying God contacted the bible first b4 giving the revelation to His angel to deliver to His prophet and messanger (u must be mistaken) Ur ancient were with him whenever he receive messages from God, they keep an 100% watch over him to confirm his prophethood which they did but just because the envy nature in them which is been tranfered people like u,they never accepted but to cut it all down,some of their most prominent scholars accepted him 'cos he fits the prophet described in the bible..God owns everything and no prophet and messanger of God will ever ask his followers to worship him along side with the creator....Go and sleep.

I v a lot to do and its been nice chating with u since u are ignoring ur self aclaimed apostle paul question.bye

Sadiq said...

@search4truth
Come to think of it,hw many questions will I answered at once,I asked u just a simple question,u changed and start bringing up fact that have been refuted to ur brothers in ur so call money missionary....u knw the way to my muslim site,go there open ur mind and read the truth,stop being Adamant.

Search 4 Truth said...

@ Sadeeq

Well thank you for admitting that the Quran, hadith and tafsirs are false.

because thats all i presented as evidewnce. While on the other hand you have not refuted one single thing. You have deflected and name called.

And yes those are contradictions. You think by dismissing them that is an educated response?

LOL! Denial is not a rebuttal.

Just because you say something does not make it a fact!

Ok I will do the same as you. Everything in the Quran is false, why/ Because I say so!

Thats consistant with your reasoning.

You have been refuted and exposed as has your Quran, hadith and tafsirs!

They were all used against you and you did not bring one single educated, factual response! Deny deny deny, deflect deflect, deflect and name calling.

You and Islam failed miserably!

I ALREADY ANSWERED YOUR QUESTION! Maybe you cant read? I dont know what to tell you. How many times do I have to repeat the answer before you see it? Has Allah covered your eyes?

And just to make this simple. Go back and read my responses! I answered it three times. But i will be consistant with you.

There is no contradiction in the Holy Bible and that is not considered a contradiction.

Theres the same answer you used so it should be sufficient. Its the same one you give. LOL! Your absurd! And I have already answered ever single thing! You on the other hand have not answered anything. Muslims and Islam always fails! ALWAYS!


HERE IS THE ANSWER! http://www.answering-islam.org/BibleCom/gen21-14.html

It was a translation. I can show you the same thing with translations of the Quran. You think you have an argument but all it comes down to is different translations. Nice try at deflecting!


Islam has made you dumb and a hypocrite sir!

Search 4 Truth said...

@ foolster

Isnt it strange that he thinks he doesnt have to provide evidence. How typically Muslim of him. he cant answer anything and then when we answer and use logical consistant answers he ignores them! And any evidence we provide its just denial. Its impossible to get some people to think or be consistent. Especially Muslims! This has been a complete waste of time! I dont even think he comprehends our answers. he certainly cant answer any of our statements or rebuttals! This has been a waste of time! Hes incapable of objective reasoning, critical thinking and intellectual integrity!

Sadiq said...

@search4truth,,u are a learner and I see, u are just too in haste of refutimg urself with no basic knowledge of all dis u are typing'''answer my question and bring urs one after the other and I will refer u to a suitable place to read the answers frm,,,,stop copying frm ur so calles illuminati Masters

Sadiq said...

http://www.answering-christianity.com/abdul-rahman_klimaszewski/abraham_and_ishmael.htm
If u believe the best u cld do is present site to open and I can as well do that and this infact one from christian brother that converted to islam,,u moron with all the lies in ur site,,,,fuck off lair,,I will keep pasting them here all the contracdictons in ur bible which ur so called scholars and theologians openly admitted to,,,bloody hypocrate calling the name of the Almigthy God (Allah) the way he calls the idol they worship....don't get urself ur mad,cos u were asked a simple question and u refuse to answer instead bringing up site for me to open and start reading the whole jagorns written there to suit their worldly believe(foolish) answer with (a baby or teenager) that's all,all u keep raising its u v refuted urself in hell,ignorant is a blizz,,,,,,,,,fuk off

Foolster41 said...

@search4truth: Yeah, I can't understand at all, even re-reading his answer about the contradiction of how Mohammad claimed to be a contenueation of Moses and Jesus (is he or isn't he, Shariq seems unable to make up his mind about this, or it's just really hard to understand what he's trying to say because he types in text speech). He says something about how the bible was altered (when darn it!?), but doesn't explain how if the bible we have today is the SAME as 200 years before Mohammad, how what Mohammad was different than what we have today, or how it could have been changed. (was there an original "Islamic" version that Mohammad had, and the version we have from 200 years before a fake? If so, what happened to that version, and why do we have no surviving records, or any sort of Chrisitan document to support an "Islamic gospel"? )

He says I have a low level of thinking when he is obviously superior than me, when he types out... text speech abreviations that makes him hard to understand... and tells calls me names... and compltely ignores my arguments and doesn't bring evidence. ...
...
Yeah. I'm done. I've had enough. I'd rather argue with Osama. And that's really saying something!

Search 4 Truth said...

@ Sadeeq

You obviously dont know how to read. I posted the response on several occasions and then I showed you that it was a matter of translation and then I went on to show you that the same thing occurs with translations of the Quran. I dont believe you for a second that you are a convert. Muslims always claim they are converts as if that lends weight to your argument. Or in your case lack of argument!

If you would have taken the time to read the response perhaps you would have comprehended the response.

The New King James Version translates these verses as follows:

So Abraham rose early in the morning, and took bread and a skin of water; and putting it on her shoulder, he gave it and the boy to Hagar, and sent her away. Then she departed and wandered in the Wilderness of Beersheba. And the water in the skin was used up, and she placed the boy under one of the shrubs. (Genesis 21:14-15)

No go and bury your head back in the sand. And deny all of the evidence we presented and all of the contradictions I showed you in the Quran.

Your in complete and total denial of reality. You are suffering from cognitive dissonance, and the Dunning-kruger effect.

I answered everything. You answered nothing. And thats the fact.

Foolster41 said...

@Search4Truth: Well, he's not going to be answering back since he's been banned for abusive language (religion of peace!). (which is good since all he would answer back is nonsense and insults, and I was getting pretty tired of it).

I liked how he called you a wild animal's resting place.

Steve A Renno said...

Muslims are all nuts....IM sorry to say, I heard to many stories about them.

Steve A Renno said...

My heart goes out to that poor little princess.....may she heal and recover....and think as she grows up if she will repect the muslim way...MY Opion they should cut her fathers penis off.


Shame on him......poor example even more about the musims.disgusting.

Gabriella Ilardi said...

Firstly Fayhad is not a prominent cleric he is a SELF PROCLAIMED cleric who occasionally was invited to speak on a religion tv program. HE WAS NEVER INDUCTED BY ANY CLERIC WHAT SO EVER!! Secondly this is the same POS who is pushing for a fatwa to have new born babies wear the Burka! why the hell is this scum of the earth still alive? If it were any other muslim male he would have been floogged then gailed (as Sharia law doesnt issue the death penalty for killing your wife or your child). Fayhad "claims" Lama was behaving "inappropriately" How can anyone perceive a 5 year old girl (baby) practicing promiscuity?any one who has children know that they DO NOT understand anything about "sex" as they HAVENT reached that developmental stage yet! Yet FAYHAD MUST BE AN EXPERT IN CHILD SEXUAL DEVELOPMENT!!!! how could he question her virginity? unless HE ALONE STOLE IT!!! this is incomprehensible to any one in any country, race or Religion!This crime is so wrong on so many levels!!Fayhad Should be put to death as he has committed the most heinous crime not only against his own innocent flesh and blood but has made a mockery of the Holy Quran to quote that is was a "Honor Killing"! This is blasphemous to Allah and all the teaching of the Holy prophet Muhammad! Fayhad should be made an example to ALL Muslim/Islamic MEN that this sort of cruelty, torture WILL NOT BE TOLERATED any where in the world. At the very least he is a pedophile who committed an incestuous act upon a minor,(WHOS VIRGINITY WAS IN TACK) until HE ALONE stole it! FAYHAD RAPED, BEATEN, WITH ELECTRICAL CORD, TORTURED,CRUSHED HER SKULL, BROKE HER BACK, SODOMIZED THEN BURNT HER ANUS TO TRY AND SHRINK IT BACK TO ITS NORMAL SIZE??? WTF?? THIS MAN IS CLEARLY INSANE AND A DANGER TO SOCIETY!! FAYHAD MURDERED LAMA ITS AS PLAIN AS THAT!! IT IS OBVIOUS THAT FAYHAD HARBOURS SO MUCH HATE TOWARDS WOMAN THAT ITS BEYOND COMPREHENSION! My heart gos out to Lamas mother who for many months leading up to Lamas death was denied ANY access to her child.She was only allowed brief phone conversations where Lama begged her mother to help her :( Lamas mother knew something was wrong but her hands were tied as in Shaira law the father automatically gains possession of any children after divorce. Fayhad's current wife should also be punished for failing to help LAMA!! If he is NOT made an example of this horrific crime and PUT TO DEATH then I feel Islam will LOOSE alot of supporters! I will be one of them who will denounce Islam unless FAYHAD PAY WITH HIS LIFE FOR STEELING AN INNOCENT BABY GIRLS LIFE!!! GOD WILLING HE WILL BE PUT TO DEATH!!!! RIP LAMA

Nathan & Irisha said...

The Saudis are the source of the most evil brand of Wahabist Islam. This is the origin of 15 of 19 9/11 hijackers. This is the land of the most brutal suppression of human rights. This is the place where the judicial system beheaded 79 people last year, but a TV star Islamic Cleric brutally raped and killed his 5 year old daughter and walked out of prison a few months later.

Despite this, they are the country we by far sell the most weapons too. Despite this, Obama bowed down to their dictator and GW Bush walked hand in hand with him. With all the media focus on the abuses in Iraq, Iran and Syria, these far worse abuses in Saudi Arabia are ignored.

Why? Because their dictator serves the monied interests in this country. He sells oil only in dollars propping up the petrodollar. Unfortunately this is what drives our foreign policy, the interest of the rich who put our politicians in power.

Md Ashfaq Salehin said...

I don't want to uplift my religion to others and don't have any intention to prove other religions as bad. Actually our religion (true religion) does not teach us to possess hate to other religions. My religion teach me the verse

"Lakum Dinukum Waliyadin"

Which means "For you your religion, for me my religion".

So we didn't been taught to show hate or dishonor to other religions, it may be Hinduism or Christianity or anything else. My religion paid due respect to Jesus or Moses by declaring them as two of the most honored prophet, but alas, that you who criticized about our religion (who follow other religions) didn't pay slightest respect about our religions. Is this the teaching your religion gives you, to dishonor, laugh on other's emotions or faith? I have seen many posts here and in other places that use slang words while talking about Islam, one of the religions which is followed by a major number of people all over the world. Is this the way you uphold humanity and respect on others?

Yes, you can talk about Muslim countries that have terrorism, anarchy and other problems. But this is for because they are poor. They are not taught by modern education or sciences like you are. Obviously science is not the property of Christians alone. You may look at African countries, where you may see many problems, many vulgar rules. In Myanmar innocent Muslims were killed by Buddhists. Whom you will blame for these. Obviously Muslims are not doing 'Jihad' in those countries. I will not blame any religion there, because I believe that Buddhism is also a religion of peace. Problem is with those followers who follow religions in wrong way.

I will say that problems are not with Islam or any other particular religion. Problem is with people who follow them. Their culture, education, solvency. For their act people like you filled totally by outrage in your heart. You blame those people personally for their act, why you slang a religion for the wrong things done by their followers?

About Ghamdi I will tell that what he did is obviously the worst thing against humanity and he must be punished with worst death. Saudi government released him because they have no proper Islam in their law. They just polished their law with Islam to hide their worst nature. Strict laws are only for the poor in Saudi Arabia, but 'Sheikhs' do whatever they want, but they are never charged with strict punishment. This isn't the teaching of Islam. Exactly this happened for Ghamdi too.

Ghamdi must be sentenced to death in the worst possible way, and this is obviously according to the rule of Islam.

Thank you, thanks a lot to Haya Nadir. You defended the honor of Islam against these great vulgar people filled with rage. As a Muslim I am grateful to you.

David Wood said...

Md,

I guess you didn't read the rest of the Qur'an, which calls non-Muslims "the worst of creatures" (98:6), says that Allah has no love for non-Muslims (3:32), commands you not to be friends with non-Muslims (5:51), and orders you to fight non-Muslims because of their beliefs (9:29).

Haben Yosef said...

Oh MY GOD! A little girl. A sweet little girl! So much smaller and weaker than him, she was of course screaming and screaming and no one heard or helped her? WTF! All the things he did to her didn't happen in a short amount of time. The extreme pain she suffered. I know many children are killed and beaten and tortured by disgusting people around the world every day, but what this girl suffered is too much! This man just never stopped finding ways to increase her pain. I read stories in the news about kids who are harmed by their parents every day. A few days ago, in the news was a story about a 5 year old boy here in the USA who was beaten to death by his mother and her boyfriend because he wet his pants, and it was reported that they will most likely receive the death penalty. But what poor baby Lema went through tops the charts! I'm a mom of young children and I'm literally crying right now when I think about a little kid dying like this. Think of a 5 year old child alive while enduring a bashed in head, broken back and arm, raped and burned anus among other things. Wish I never heard this story. And being that it is Saudi Arabia, obviously, as we see from the very lenient judgement this man received, and lenient judgments from other serious cases, there is nothing anyone can do. That makes it especially infuriating. It's like we have to accept it.

Haben Yosef said...

Oh MY GOD! A little girl. A sweet little girl! So much smaller than him, she was of course screaming and screaming and no one heard or helped her? WTF! All the things he didn't happen in a short amount of time. The extreme pain she suffered. I know many children are killed and beaten and tortured by disgusting people around the world every day, but what this girl suffered is too much! This man just never stopped finding ways to increase and prolong her pain. I read stories in the news about kids who are harmed by their parents every day. A few days ago, in the news was a story about a 5 year old boy who was beaten to death by his mother and her boyfriend because he wet his pants, and it was reported that they will most likely receive the death penalty. But what poor baby Lema went through tops the charts! I'm here literally crying right now. Think of a 5 year old girl alive with a bashed in head, broken back and arm, raped and burned anus among other things. Wish I never heard this story. And being that it is Saudi Arabia, obviously, as we see from the very lenient judgement, there is nothing anyone can do. That makes it especially infuriating. It's like we have to accept it.