Saturday, May 26, 2012

Debate Reminder

Just a reminder to everyone interested in my upcoming debate with Ijaz Ahmad --who has affectionately dubbed me a "popular Islamaphobe author," which is surely mistaken since I am hardly famous-- it will take place tomorrow, Lord willing, May 27th, at 6pm (PST). The debate will be hosted in the Answering Christianity room on Paltalk. Aside from learning the truth of the proposition being debated, we will also see if Muslims have more confidence now in their ability to rationally confront Christianity than they did during Keith Thompson's debate with Sami Zaatari, on which occasion Keith was repeatedly dotted (i.e. muted) and interrupted.

For those who didn't catch the announcement before, we will be debating the following proposition: The Old Testament Teaches that the Angel of the Lord [Lit. Heb. The Messenger of Yahweh] is a Distinct Divine Person in the Godhead.

****Special note for Ijaz: You might want to ask your co-religionists over at MDI not to work at cross-purposes with you. Just today muslim convert Dr. Laurence Brown acknowledged that the Old Testament, quite contrary to contemporary Jewish fancy, teaches that it was God who humbled Himself, appeared in the form of a man, and wrestled with Jacob.
The Old Testament teaches that Jacob wrestled with God. In fact, the Old Testament records that Jacob not only wrestled with God, but that Jacob prevailed (Genesis 32:24-30). Now, bear in mind, we’re talking about a tiny blob of protoplasm wrestling the Creator of a universe 240,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 miles in diameter, containing over a billion galaxies of which ours—the Milky Way Galaxy—is just one (and a small one, at that), and prevailing? I’m sorry, but someone was a couple pages short of a codex when they scribed that passage. The point is, however, that this passage leaves us in a quandary. We either have to question the Jewish concept of God or accept their explanation that “God” does not mean “God” in the above verses, but rather it means either an angel or a man (which, in essence, means the Old Testament is not to be trusted). In fact, this textual difficulty has become so problematic that more recent Bibles have tried to cover it up by changing the translation from “God” to “man.” What they cannot change, however, is the foundational scripture from which the Jewish Bible is translated, and this continues to read “God.”
No doubt it is intolerable for Muslims to hear that God would do something that sounds so Christ-like, but there it is. And in the Torah to boot. What was Moses thinking? I thought "all the prophets were Muslims"?

Muslims can pretend of course that the OT was corrupted at this point and that it is not what Moses originally wrote, but given Dr. Brown's acknowledgement that contemporary Jews find such a view just as intolerable as Muslims, and presumably he holds the popular view that ancient Jews were also at one with Muslims on this issue, we have to ask if the unargued idea that the Jews corrupted the "foundational scripture" to read "God" wrestled with Jacob only to later falsely translate it as a "man" wrestled with Jacob is even feasible. Only someone who is a few pages short of a codex would argue such a thing.

Oh, I almost forgot the best part. Here is what the Old Testament prophet Hosea said about God wrestling with Jacob:
"The LORD also brings a charge against Judah, and will punish Jacob according to his ways; according to his deeds He will recompense him. He took his brother by the heel in the womb, and in his strength he struggled with God. Yes, he struggled with the Angel and prevailed; he wept, and sought favor from Him. He found Him in Bethel, and there He spoke to us--that is, the LORD God of hosts. The Lord is His memorable name. So you, by the help of your God, return; observe mercy and justice, and wait on your God continually." (Hosea 12:2-6)
QED

22 comments:

Derek Adams said...

"The Old Testament Teaches that the Angel of the Lord [Lit. Heb. The Messenger of Yahweh] is a Distinct Divine Person in the Godhead."

Now remember Anthony every time you prove the angel of Yahweh is Yahweh, you are really proving the angel is the Father since that title is reserved for the father alone in christian theology.

That means the angel of Yahweh is not distinct from Yahweh but Yahweh is impersonating himself as an angel. You old modalist you! You failed to prove the title!

Will this be a debate about what IS christian theology, or about whether it is TRUE. I hope the latter. but presumably that won't happen since Ijaz has confused himself.

So what i'm suggesting is after the theology is defined it is not your burden of proof to keep reiterating what christian theology teaches no matter how many mistakes he makes, stick to the focus and annilhate this clown don't let his red herrings and smokescreens distract you.

Oh by the way the Answering Christianity room has ATTEMPTED to change the debate into the FORM OF A QUESTION.

notice the deception already?

Nakdimon said...

I forsee a massacre... and I'm not even a prophet. lol

Koala Bear said...

"Islamophobia": The fear of speaking out against the rapidly growing religion/ideology that is out to repress all who do not follow its doctrine.

Personally I think islam is like a massive balloon kept afloat with lies. It is debates like yours that will ultimately pop that balloon.

Nothin'ButTheTruth said...

@ Derek Adams,
I see why you left Christianity because you have no clue what it teaches.
You said, "
Now remember Anthony every time you prove the angel of Yahweh is Yahweh, you are really proving the angel is the Father since that title is reserved for the father alone in christian theology.

That means the angel of Yahweh is not distinct from Yahweh but Yahweh is impersonating himself as an angel. You old modalist you! You failed to prove the title!"

Who told you Yahweh is ONLY a title for the Father?

I think you are mixing Christianity with Islam that teaches Allah is what Christianity call the Father.

Hosea 13:4 says, "Yet I am YAHWEH thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for THERE IS NO SAVIOR BESIDE ME."

Doesn't Christianity teach that JESUS is SAVIOR? Is Jesus the Father? NO!
Jesus itself means Savior FYI.

So how can Jesus be the Savior if He is NOT YAHWEH? Since Yahweh says HE ALONE IS THE SAVIOR?

Again, TRINITY comes to play here. I think based on you comment, you have no clue about the Trinity either.

FYI. The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are all 100% God (YAHWEH). The Father IS NOT BETTER than the Son and the Holy Spirit, neither is the Son and the Holy Spirit better than the Father. They are ALL THE SAME!

Nothin'ButTheTruth said...

What about the Holy Spirit being YAHWEH?

Isaiah 63:7-9 say, "I will mention the lovingkindnesses of YAHWEH, and the praises of YAHWEH, according to all that YAHWEH hath bestowed on us, and the great goodness toward the house of Israel, which he hath bestowed on them according to his mercies, and according to the multitude of his lovingkindnesses. 8.For he said, Surely they are my people, children that will not lie: so HE WAS THEIR SAVIOR. 9.In all their affliction he was afflicted, and THE ANGEL OF HIS PRESENCE SAVED THEM: in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; and he bare them, and carried them all the days of old."

The Angel of His presence here is the same as the Angel of the LORD which is the Holy Spirit.

And He (the Holy Spirit) SAVED them. He too is SAVIOR. And in context He too is called YAHWEH.


What to notice between the Angel of the Lord and ordinary angels when you read the Bible is,

Ordinary angels DO NOT accept worship and sacrifices (Revelation 19:10, 22:9)

CallingChristians.com said...

http://callingchristians.com/2012/05/27/debate-reminder/

Ijaz Ahmad,
www.callingchristians.com

betwixt said...

Not sure, but it seems like he essentially said the burning bush was a messenger of God. Did he?

dstewart said...

Nothin'ButTheTruth,

I was thinking the same thing... until I read the rest of the comment. He's evidently predicting (with ridicule) based on a past experience what the Muslim will argue. I don't think he's foolish enough to assume without evidence that Yahweh is only a particular person in the Godhead, since neither Christian tradition nor the Bible actually teach that. I think he knows the kind of smoke screens some Muslims debaters like to use.

Search 4 Truth said...

Betwixt. Yes he did. LOL! he just repeated the same argument over and over after Anthony refuted them. He only hears what he wants to hear. And he only accepts what he wants to accept. And then he thinks God has the limitations of man.

kakin ng said...

@CC
Numbers 23:19
nice try but no cigar. the verse states that god is not like a human who would lie. or like a human who will change his mind.

the verse clearly indicates a comparison between god's behavior and a humans. not the context you are using it for

But wait, we must not forget in genesis that God created us in his own IMAGE.

kakin ng said...

@CC
Numbers 23:19
is defining the behavior differences between a human and a god and making a behavior contrast not physical.

genesis for instances clearly stated God created us in his image

if you are going to make a argument at least get the context right

aaron said...

Numbers 23:19
@CC one question can god not choose to become man later on? also the said verse is making a comparison of behaviors between man and God not on physical appearance of god.

Derek Adams said...

Sorry guys many time my satire is not conveyed with people who are not up to date on all our adventures.

Calling wrote a response to David, and a follow up response to me claiming only the Father is Yahweh. He even deceptively or mistakenly used Shamoun to try to prove his point.

Thankfully CC however at least did not end up arguing a straw man like this during the debate. (Apart from the accusations of Schizophrenia).

-Derek

Jason Crusader said...

CC never refuted anything. He kept saying the same thing over and over again. He even pretended that Anthony was not answering his question when Anthony clearly was. This is why some times it seems to me like a waste of time debating muslims because you can prove them wrong time and time again and they'll just deny it and act like they've won the debate.

Never have I met a group of people as blind as muslims. May the Lord Jesus open their eyes and reveal the truth to them that his Him.

TAREK said...

Dear brethren,
I am pleased with the victory of the debate. I prayed for and THANKS BE TO YAHWEH.
I think Mr. CC approached the topic with the islamic theology that limits allah. Because they always want to tell us that we worshiped the same creator. Wrong. Mr. CC if you limit allah please do not limit YAHWEH, simple as it is. If you take off those lenses then only then you will begin to see and understand why you need to change CC to CM.
The other point is, to apply exactly your theology of limitation to your religion and see where you will find yourself. BTW you began that already by saying that !it was the angel who was in the fire and not YAHWEH". I am afraid your muslim brothers will end up stoning you.
Now I'd like you to take on the debate topic regarding your false religion brother Anthony came up with. You were handed victory by your fellow as soon as you finished without any type of whatsoever analysis.
Mr. CC you will say I'm bias but we in Europe have made our analysis and came up with the victory for Mr Anthony Rogers.
And please next time do not insult or use mockery language. If Mr. Anthony had used the same languages you used yesterday, for sure the debate was not going to see its end.
I will like to thank the moderator for the good job. She was not parfait but it is fine. Perfection doesn't belong to this world.

Dr. David I know you have a lot into your plate. And i hope you are fine. I'd be glad to hear you view regarding this debate. Thank you in advance

MAY YAHWEH BE with us always in JESUS' NAME AMEN.

NITEMARES791 said...

Anthony Rogers wrote
Just today muslim convert Dr. Laurence Brown acknowledged that the Old Testament, quite contrary to contemporary Jewish fancy, teaches that it was God who humbled Himself, appeared in the form of a man, and wrestled with Jacob

My inquiries
Rogers can you please tell me why your peace loving god, of turn the other cheek, is wrestling with Jacob. Lets see your god wanted to humble himself so he came to wrestle with someone? Are you missing a few marbles.? Also why would your god come to wrestle with someone at this time.

Tell me something how come the more human qualities your god posses the more proof you claim that he is a god. That makes lots of sense.

Here is the true creator. Has your god matched this.

Deuteronomy Chapter 4 33 Did ever a people hear God's voice speaking out of the midst of the fire as you have heard, and live? 34 Or has any god performed miracles to come and take him a nation from the midst of another nation, with trials, with signs, and with wonders, and with war and with a strong hand, and with an outstretched arm, and with great awesome deeds, as all that the Lord your God did for you in Egypt before your eyes? 35 You have been shown, in order to know that the Lord He is God; there is none else besides Him.

Anthony Rogers said...

Nitemare said: "Rogers can you please tell me why your peace loving god, of turn the other cheek, is wrestling with Jacob. Lets see your god wanted to humble himself so he came to wrestle with someone? Are you missing a few marbles.? Also why would your god come to wrestle with someone at this time."

The text says it was God who wrestled with Jacob. He named the place Peniel for that very reason. The prophet Hosea, whose words you completely ignored, also stated the same thing, and quite emphatically. Since you are Jewish, you should spend some time wrestling with this problem. Unfortunately for you, unlike Jacob I don't think you will prevail in getting out of the conundrum you find yourself in.

"Tell me something how come the more human qualities your god posses the more proof you claim that he is a god. That makes lots of sense."

Tell ME something: why is it that the more you are shown that "your" book says God can do the sorts of things you say He can't do you deny it all the more? That makes no sense.

I suggest you spend less time playing with marbles and read the text. And for Pete's sake...try believing it for a change.

NITEMARES791 said...

Anthony Rogers wrote
The text says it was God who wrestled with Jacob. He named the place Peniel for that very reason. The prophet Hosea, whose words you completely ignored, also stated the same thing, and quite emphatically. Since you are Jewish, you should spend some time wrestling with this problem. Unfortunately for you, unlike Jacob I don't think you will prevail in getting out of the conundrum you find yourself in.

My response.
If I couldn’t read I wouldn’t sound so arrogant as you. Show me where I said it was not your god who wrestled with Jacob. Read again “Lets see, your god wanted to humble himself so he came to wrestle with someone?”

Now show me where the text says it was G-D that wrestled with Jacob lets get the text.

Genesis Chapter 32:25 And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day. 26 And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was strained, as he wrestled with him. 27 And he said: 'Let me go, for the day breaketh.' And he said: 'I will not let thee go, except thou bless me.' 28 And he said unto him: 'What is thy name?' And he said: 'Jacob.' 29 And he said: 'Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel; for thou hast striven with God and with men, and hast prevailed.' 30 And Jacob asked him, and said: 'Tell me, I pray thee, thy name.' And he said: 'Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name?' And he blessed him there.

Here it says a man wrestled with him. Remember this was pre Christianity there were no man gods around.

Now lets look at Hosea. 2 Ephraim striveth after wind, and followeth after the east wind; all the day he multiplieth lies and desolation; and they make a covenant with Assyria, and oil is carried into Egypt. 3 The LORD hath also a controversy with Judah, and will punish Jacob according to his ways, according to his doings will He recompense him. 4 In the womb he took his brother by the heel, and by his strength he strove with a godlike being; 5 So he strove with an angel, and prevailed; he wept, and made supplication unto him; at Beth-el he would find him, and there he would speak with us;

Here it says he strove with an angel can you read English read verse 5 you want me to get your post ok. This is your text/ “Yes, he struggled with the Angel and prevailed; he wept, and sought favor from Him.” So in both these passages it says he struggled with an angel.

So the problem is that you can’t read English.
(to be continued)

NITEMARES791 said...

Anthony Rogers wrote
Tell ME something: why is it that the more you are shown that "your" book says God can do the sorts of things you say He can't do you deny it all the more? That makes no sense.

My response
If I can figure out what the heck you wrote here I would be a genius. Lets guess, I can tell you something my G-D cant do he cant lie.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matthew%2024&version=NIV
Matthew 24:1 Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2 “Do you see all these things?” he asked. “Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”

Go to Israel you will see a wall left of the temple the Israelites call it the western wall. So your god lied.

. 34 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=117:what-does-qthis-generationq-mean-in-matthew-24-mark-13-and-luke-21&catid=47:second-or-first-coming&Itemid=499

“Mark's Jesus, after listing all the tribulations that the world must endure before he returns a second time (Mark 13:3-29, see also Matthew 24:3-33) exclaims: "Truly I say to you this generation will not pass away until all these things take place" (Mark 13:30, Matthew 24:34, Luke 21:32). Jesus was directing this remark specifically to his contemporary generation and not to some unknown future generation. Jesus, addressing his disciples "privately" (Mark 13:3, Matthew 24:3) listed what was going to happen before his return. He then added, "Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted and shall kill you and you shall be hated of all nations for my names sake" (Matthew 24:9). Concerning this, Mark's version adds, "he that shall endure to the end, the same shall be saved" (Mark 13:13). Thus, it appears from this last remark that at least some of the disciples would survive and be present to witness the second coming and the end of time……”

Anthony Rogers wrote
I suggest you spend less time playing with marbles and read the text. And for Pete's sake...try believing it for a change.

My response
I suggest you play with marbles that is all you are good for. I sure believe in my book when it says the wicked will be destroyed.

Anthony Rogers said...

Nitemare (aka Pete) said: "Now show me where the text says it was G-D that wrestled with Jacob lets get the text."

Okay, here is the text, which you didn't quote in full:

"24 Then Jacob was left alone, and a man wrestled with him until daybreak. 25 When he saw that he had not prevailed against him, he touched the socket of his thigh; so the socket of Jacob’s thigh was dislocated while he wrestled with him. 26 Then he said, “Let me go, for the dawn is breaking.” But he said, “ I will not let you go unless you bless me.” 27 So he said to him, “What is your name?” And he said, “Jacob.” 28 He said, “Your name shall no longer be Jacob, but Israel; for you have striven WITH GOD and with men and have prevailed.” 29 Then Jacob asked him and said, “Please tell me your name.” But he said, “Why is it that you ask my name?” And he blessed him there. 30 So Jacob named the place Peniel, FOR he said, “I have seen God FACE TO FACE, yet my life has been preserved.” 31 Now the sun rose upon him just as he crossed over Penuel, and he was limping on his thigh. 32 Therefore, to this day the sons of Israel do not eat the sinew of the hip which is on the socket of the thigh, because HE touched the socket of Jacob’s thigh in the sinew of the hip."

That should clear it all up for you. But just to make certain, here is what Hosea said, which you also did not quote in full:

"3 In the womb he took his brother by the heel,
And in his maturity he contended WITH GOD.
4 Yes, he wrestled WITH THE ANGEL and prevailed;
He wept and sought HIS favor.
He found HIM at Bethel
And there HE spoke with us,
5 Even the Lord, the God of hosts,
The Lord is HIS name
."

So let me add this up for you. Genesis 32 calls the one Jacob wrestled with" a man." Hosea says it was "the Angel." Both Genesis and Hosea identify the one who appeared as a man to be God, and Hosea tops it off by calling Him: "The Lord, the God of Hosts. The Lord is His name."

Nitemare said: "I suggest you play with marbles that is all you are good for. I sure believe in my book when it says the wicked will be destroyed."

That is good. I wouldn't want you to be taken by surprise when it happens.

Herakleios said...

@Nitemares (and Anthony)

I would like to back up Anthonys position.

The important part is probably Gen, 32,31:

וַיִּקְרָ֧א יַעֲקֹ֛ב שֵׁ֥ם הַמָּק֖וֹם פְּנִיאֵ֑ל כִּֽי־רָאִ֤יתִי אֱלֹהִים֙ פָּנִ֣ים אֶל־פָּנִ֔ים וַתִּנָּצֵ֖ל נַפְשִֽׁי׃

it clearly says, "And Jakob called the place "Peniel" (what actually means something like Face of God), because (he said) I saw God (Elohim) from face to face (ki-raiti elohim panim el-panim) and my soul was rescued (or life was safed... probably many possible translations).

There is no doubt, this pericope deals with Jakob "wrestling" with God in a human form. Its a very strange part of the Torah and find it strange, everytime i read it.

Anthony Rogers said...

Nitemare,

I realized that I neglected to inform you that I have already answered the claim that Jesus is guilty of falsely predicting that the end of the world would occur in the first century:

Coming On the Clouds of Heaven

Also, for a man who does not believe that God kept His promise to send the Messiah, you sure have a lot of gall charging anyone with a false prophecy. Your belief makes all the prophets liars.

Anyways, enjoy the read!