Wednesday, February 1, 2012

James White Responds to . . . Total Nonsense

James once again demonstrates the virtue of patience.

In response to the videos we watched yesterday, Muslims posted one of their famous "You-can't-make-me-believe-because-I-refuse-to-think" videos:



I wouldn't have bothered responding to someone who obviously has no concern for truth, logic, accuracy, reality, or consistency, but James is a bit more optimistic that the truth may eventual break through the walls of ignorance.

52 comments:

search 4 truth said...

WOW Who would have guessed! I was blocked from responding on that video because I refuted so many Muslims on the prior one!

Wow I never would have guessed Muslims would censor truth and speech!

Hezekiah Ahaz said...

There is something hilarious I have noticed about Muslims they act exactly like atheist.


Their god is no god at all.


Muslims are atheist.



It's time they snap out of the fiction.

Hezekiah Ahaz said...

Yea I feel your pain s4t I left a comment at a Muslim blog:

http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.com/

It hasn't got approved.

I'm guessing they didn't like my question.


Anyway

I just thought about something really cool I wonder if allah can pull a rabbit out of a hat?


or Maybe some card tricks that would be really neat.

Hezekiah Ahaz said...

I like what James said in the video Muslims love Bart E.
But wait Bart is an atheist!!!!!.


Makes me think about my earlier post.

Muslims are atheist.


The "light" teaming up with darkness what a shame.

Oh yea and their claim that theories of evolution line up with their book.


It's pretty funny when you think about it.


Islam is an illusion filled with claims of fiction.

minoria said...

I was reading about Avalos a bit,he is an atheist,ex-Christian,with a doctorate.

But he is wrong at times.I think he has a tendency to refuse to admit when he is wrong.Anyway,for one with a doctorate some of his arguments are very flawed.

About those killed as witches

1.From 145O to 175O some 5O,OOO were killed as witches,of which 75% were women.

2.Virtually nobody was killed as a witch in Italy or Spain,under the Inquisition.

3.Most of those killed as witches were in France and Germany.

4.Of the 5O,OOO killed 9O% were killed by secular courts,not by the church courts,Catholic and otherwise.

5.There was a condemnation rate of 5O%,that is 1OO,OOO were accused,half killed.

About the Spanish Inquisition

There were 125,OOO arrested,of which only about 1O% were tortured.

And four thousand were killed,and it is even said it was only 2,OOO.All the same less than 4% were killed.

SO?

Avalos was making a critique of Dinesh D'Souza,who said 1OO,OOO were killed as witches,but I disagree,all the other books say 5O,OOO.

Anyway,Avalos says 1OO,OOO deaths are because of Christianity and if Europe had the same population then as now it would be 1O million killed as witches.

Obviously,Avalos,though he has a doctorate,is ignorant that it was the secular,non-religious court system that killed 9O%.

In fact,the churches acted as a deterrant.And the condemnation rate in the ecclesiastical courts was alot less,and those courts better.

If that is not all,killing a witch is nowhere in the NT.It is in Mosaic Law but Mosaic law is not for Christians.

Samatar Mohamed said...

@Hezekiah Ahaz

You said "Their god is no god at all. Muslims are atheist."

I normally would not respond to a comment like that, but I have a quick question. Do you know what an atheist even is. Well here is the definition.

"a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings."

So muslims (one who surrenders, submits to the will of Allah (swt)) are atheists even though they believe in a supreme being. Please clarify what you mean exactly.

Samatar Mohamed said...

@David Wood

I heard that James white and Shabir Ally were debating sometime in the spring. Do you perchance, know what the topic will be. Thanks.

Anthony Rogers said...

That response video from Muslims was so bad I will bet Kim collaborated on it.

Dom said...

Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
Matt 7:21


Who's will ? My will. Nope. The will of God.

What is God's will.

To you it was shown, that you might know that the LORD is God; there is no other besides him.
Duet 4:35


God does not want you to put anyone besides him so why are you guys doing that ?

Jesus is crystal clear he is not God so why are you listening to the one that came in his own name ?

David Wood said...

Wow! Based on Dom's silly comments, it sounds like we've found the Muslim who made the video!

Let's see. Double standards? Check.

Picking and choosing? Check.

Complete ignorance of the Bible? Check.

Yep, I think we found him!

Radical Moderate said...

I first listend to Dr Whites response to the response to the resposne to...

I don't know why but for some bizar reason I had to watch the Muslim video.

What a waist of time that was.

Radical Moderate said...

On Bart Ehrman,

I heard a Muslim the other day say "I use Barth Ehrman becasue he agrees with me" LOL shakes head on that one.

Hezekiah Ahaz said...

Samatar,


Is your god omniscient?

if yes can you explain then why he is clueless about science?


If no well then there's you're answer.


Do you know the difference between reality and fiction?


How is it that your prophet was not hallucinating?

Dom said...

Why are you so scared to reply David ?

Dom said...

I always take solace in the words of Jesus when sites like this make fun of Muslims.

If the world hates you,
you know that it hated Me before it hated you.
If you were of the world, the world would love its own.
Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you."
(John 15:18-19)


No group is hated more than Muslims in the world. That is the way Satan likes it. Keeps people from the finding the right path.

Sorry, I interrupted your smart repartee. Please continue. :)

David Wood said...

Scared? Dom, you've just started posting comments, and you're already acting like a child. And you've even started mocking the words of Jesus. You'll have to start sharing comments somewhere else. We've got better things to do here. But, following the example of James White, I'll go ahead and refute you even though I doubt you'll pay any attention.

THE FIRST AND THE LAST

Surah 57:3 of the Qur’an refers to Allah as “the First and the Last, the Most High and the Most Near.” The Old Testament agrees that God is the “First and the Last,” as we read in the Book of the prophet Isaiah:

Isaiah 44:6—Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: “I am the first and I am the last, and there is no God besides Me.”

When “LORD” is written in all capitals in the Old Testament, the term refers to Yahweh, the creator of the universe. Since both the Bible and the Qur’an give the title “the First and the Last” to God, it should be quite shocking for Muslims to open the New Testament and read Revelation 1:17-18, where Jesus says:

“Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades.”

Would a mere prophet claim to be the “First and the Last”?

WHO FORGIVES SINS?

While one human being may sin against another human being, there is a sense in which all sin is rebellion against God. Similarly, while you and I may forgive one another for the wrongs we commit, only God can offer ultimate forgiveness. Thus, the prophet David could say to God, “Against You, You only, I have sinned
and done what is evil in Your sight” (Psalm 51:4), and the Prophet Daniel could declare, “To the Lord our God belong compassion and forgiveness, for we have rebelled against Him” (Daniel 9:9).

The Qur’an agrees that ultimate forgiveness belongs to God, for it asks, “Who can forgive sins except Allah?” (3:135).

It might surprise Muslims to learn that, in the New Testament, Jesus claims the ability to forgive sins. In Mark 2, a paralyzed man is brought to Jesus in order to be healed. Jesus’ response leads the religious leaders to accuse him of blasphemy:

Mark 2:5-7—And Jesus seeing their faith said to the paralytic, “Son, your sins are forgiven.” But some of the scribes were sitting there and reasoning in their hearts, “Why does this man speak that way? He is blaspheming; who can forgive sins but God alone?”

The scribes correctly recognized that only God can forgive sins. Yet Jesus (who referred to himself as the “Son of Man”), knowing their thoughts, replied that “the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins” (Mark 2:10). He then healed the paralytic, proving that his claims were true.

THE LIGHT

In Psalm 27:1, the prophet David proclaims: “The LORD is my light and my salvation.” Similarly, the Qur’an declares that “Allah is the light of the heavens and the earth” (24:35). Yet Jesus tells his listeners that he is “the Light”:

John 8:12—“I am the Light of the world; he who follows Me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the Light of life.”

THE TRUTH

The prophet David refers to Yahweh as the “God of Truth” (Psalm 31:5). According to the Qur’an, “Allah is the Truth” (22:6). Jesus, however, applies this as a title for himself:

John 14:6—Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.”

How can a mere human being claim to be “The Truth”?

David Wood said...

THE FINAL JUDGE

In Chapter 3 of the Book of the prophet Joel, Yahweh declares that the nations will be gathered and that he “will sit to judge all the surrounding nations” (v. 12). According to the prophet David, “the LORD abides forever;
 He has established His throne for judgment, and He will judge the world in righteousness” (Psalm 9:7-8).

The Qur’an maintains that Allah will judge the world, rewarding believers and punishing unbelievers:

Qur’an 22:56-57—The kingdom on that day shall be Allah’s; He will judge between them; so those who believe and do good will be in gardens of bliss. And (as for) those who disbelieve in and reject Our communications, these it is who shall have a disgraceful chastisement.

So why, we may wonder, would Jesus tell his followers that he will be the final judge of all people?

Matthew 25:31-32—“But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.”

Jesus goes on to say that he will admit certain people to heaven and cast others into hell. Isn’t this something only God can do?

THE RESURRECTION

The Bible and the Qur’an agree that God is the one who will raise the dead.

1 Samuel 2:6—The LORD kills and makes alive; He brings down to Sheol and raises up.

Qur’an 22:7—Allah will resurrect those who are in the graves.

Since God will raise the dead at the resurrection, why would a mere prophet tell his followers that he will resurrect the dead?

John 5:25-29—“Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself; and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man. Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.”

John 11:25—Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies.”

GOD’S GLORY

The Qur’an tells us that “Whatsoever is in the heavens and the earth glorifies Allah” (57:1).

In the Old Testament, we find that Yahweh will not share his glory with anyone.

Isaiah 42:8—“I am the LORD, that is My name; 
I will not give My glory to another.” (Cf. Isaiah 48:11—“My glory I will not give to another.”)

Yet Jesus claimed, not only that he would be glorified with the Father, but that he had glory with the Father before the world was created!

John 17:5—“Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.”

How can anyone see this as anything other than a claim to deity?

David Wood said...

FURTHER EVIDENCE

In Mark 2:28, Jesus calls himself the “Lord of the Sabbath.” In Matthew 22:41-45, he proves that he is the Lord of the prophet David. In John 8:39-58, Jesus says that he has seen the prophet Abraham. In Matthew 12:6, Jesus claims to be greater than God’s Temple.

Jesus tells us that he has an absolutely unique relationship with the Father (Matthew 11:27), that he can answer prayers (John 14:13-14), that he is present wherever his followers are gathered (Matthew 18:20), that he has “all authority in heaven and on earth” (Matthew 28:18), and that he is with his followers forever (Matthew 28:20). He even makes the startling declaration that “All things that the Father has are Mine” (John 16:15).

According to Jesus, all people must honor him just as we honor the Father:

John 5:21-23—“For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom He wishes. For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son, so that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.”

Since one of the ways we honor the Father is by worshiping him, it should come as no surprise that Jesus’ followers worshiped him on numerous occasions. Indeed, the Gospel tells us that Jesus was worshiped throughout his life: shortly after his birth (Matthew 2:11), during his ministry (Matthew 14:33, John 9:38), after his resurrection (Matthew 28:17), and after his ascension to heaven (Luke 24:52). Jesus’ disciple Thomas even addressed him as “my Lord and my God” (John 20:28).

Dom said...

Scared? Dom, you've just started posting comments, and you're already acting like a child.

I am sorry if I came across like that. Perhaps I was coaxing a reply out of you. :)

Thanks for taking the time to reply. I realise you are probably a lot busier than I.

And you've even started mocking the words of Jesus

That would be the last thing I do. These words of Jesus pbuh are directed to the believers which I believe are Muslims.

I have a look through what you have said and absorb it and look to reply later to each point you made.

Hezekiah Ahaz said...

Great Dom is familiar with the bible.

John 12 " 37 Even after Jesus had performed so many signs in their presence, they still would not believe in him. 38 This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet:
   “Lord, who has believed our message
   and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?”[h]

 39 For this reason they could not believe, because, as Isaiah says elsewhere:

 40 “He has blinded their eyes
   and hardened their hearts,
so they can neither see with their eyes,
   nor understand with their hearts,
   nor turn—and I would heal them.”[i]

 41 Isaiah said this because he saw Jesus’ glory and spoke about him.



 Isaiah 6: 1 In the year that King Uzziah died, I saw the Lord, high and exalted, seated on a throne; and the train of his robe filled the temple. 2 Above him were seraphim, each with six wings: With two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying. 3 And they were calling to one another:
   “Holy, holy, holy is the LORD Almighty;
   the whole earth is full of his glory.”

 4 At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook and the temple was filled with smoke.

 5 “Woe to me!” I cried. “I am ruined! For I am a man of unclean lips, and I live among a people of unclean lips, and my eyes have seen the King, the LORD Almighty.”

 6 Then one of the seraphim flew to me with a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with tongs from the altar. 7 With it he touched my mouth and said, “See, this has touched your lips; your guilt is taken away and your sin atoned for.”

 8 Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?”

   And I said, “Here am I. Send me!”

 9 He said, “Go and tell this people:

   “‘Be ever hearing, but never understanding;
   be ever seeing, but never perceiving.’
10 Make the heart of this people calloused;
   make their ears dull
   and close their eyes.[a]
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
   hear with their ears,
   understand with their hearts,
and turn and be healed.”

 11 Then I said, “For how long, Lord?”

   And he answered:

   “Until the cities lie ruined
   and without inhabitant,
until the houses are left deserted
   and the fields ruined and ravaged,
12 until the LORD has sent everyone far away
   and the land is utterly forsaken.
13 And though a tenth remains in the land,
   it will again be laid waste.
But as the terebinth and oak
   leave stumps when they are cut down,
   so the holy seed will be the stump in the land.”


SEE THAT DOM?


Jesus is YHWH.

Hazakim1 said...

Sam I would add to these Scriptures the passages in the Tanach (Old Testament) which clearly point to the divine nature of the Messiah (who had not yet come to the earth:

Isaiah 9:6, "For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace."

Micah 5:2, "But as for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, Too little to be among the clans of Judah,
From you One will go forth for Me to be ruler in Israel. His goings forth are from long ago, From the days of eternity.”

Isaiah 7:14, "Therefore the Lord Himself shall give you a sign: Behold, the young woman who is unmarried and a virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel [God with us]."

Zechariah 12:10, "“And I (God speaking) will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son."

Hezekiah Ahaz said...

For Dom:

I wanna see how dom is gonna get out of this one lets compare the koran and the Bible:


Qur’an 5:51—O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.

Qur’an 9:30—And the Jews say: Uzair is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!

Qur’an 98:6—Those who reject (Truth), among the People of the Book and among the Polytheists, will be in Hell-Fire, to dwell therein. They are the worst of creatures.

Sahih Muslim 4366—Muhammad said: “I will expel the Jews and Christians from the Arabian Peninsula and will not leave any but Muslim.”

Al-Bukhari, Al-Adab al-Mufrad 1103—Muhammad said: “Do not give the People of the Book the greeting first. Force them to the narrowest part of the road.”



Hear the words of Jesus:

Luke 6:27 ""But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you"


Matt 5:44 "But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you"


Mark 12:31 "The second is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”


"43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 And if you greet only your brothers,[i] what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? 48 You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect."




Hey Dom are you doing any of this?

Zack_Tiang said...

Dom said...

"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
Matt 7:21

Who's will ? My will. Nope. The will of God.

What is God's will.

To you it was shown, that you might know that the LORD is God; there is no other besides him.
Duet 4:35 "

No, Dom... Jesus actually tells us what is the will of the Father. (Jesus called God 'MY FATHER', btw)

John 6:38-40, Jesus says, "
(38) For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me.
(39) And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.
(40) For this is THE WILL OF MY FATHER, that everyone who looks on THE SON and believes in him [THE SON] should have eternal life, and I [JESUS THE SON] will raise him up on the last day."


So, do you do the will of the Father, Dom? The will of the FATHER of Jesus?

Does Islam not deny Allah's fatherhood in the first place?
So how are you doing the will of THE FATHER when you deny God is the Father?

Samatar Mohamed said...

@Hezekiah

Yes, we as muslims do believe that God is omnicient, but that is beside the point. An atheist is someone who believes there is no supreme being, but we believe in a supreme being. So regardless of whether you hold that Allah (swt) was mistaken about science, muslims believe that Allah (swt) did not make any scientific innacuracies. And I must say, I am pretty sure you are the only christian here who holds that muslims are atheists.

Hezekiah Ahaz said...

Not surprisingly Samatar evades all my questions.

It only shows the emptiness of position.


No Samatar you believe in a magic being there is a big difference. Magic beings don't qualify to be God.


So can you explain to us how your magic being is omniscient in spite of the evidence?




Wishing doesn't make it so try and offer some kind of refutation this time.

dstewart said...

Dom said,

"I always take solace in the words of Jesus when sites like this make fun of Muslims." (Quotes John 15:18-19) "No group is hated more than Muslims in the world. That is the way Satan likes it. Keeps people from the finding the right path."

People who go around to funerals saying, "This person went to hell," point to the same scriptures thinking they must be doing SOMETHING right if people are angry at them...

Well, people concerned with fighting religious persecution are drawn toward Christianity because the vast majority of religious persecution in the world today (often at the hands of Muslim majorities) is against Christians. However, in terms of proportion, I think the Jews and people of the Bahá'í faith face much more religious persecution. Muslims are far from the most hated group in both senses.

I think you may have kind of shot yourself in the foot with that comment...

Sam said...

BTW, here is what the will of the Father is according to Jesus himself:

"Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal.' Therefore they said to Him, “What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?' Jesus answered and said to them, 'This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.'" John 6:27-29

"This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.” John 6:39-40

Sam said...

Oops! I see that Zack Tiang beat me to it. :-)

Preach it brother!

Dom said...

Hi all

In my time Zone it is early morning. I just woke up to grab a drink of water. I got a bit of work ahead of me it seems. :)

Samatar Mohamed said...

@Hezekiah

If you read the title of this column it says "James White Responds to . . . Total Nonsense". The key words were total nonsense like your claim that muslims are actually atheists.I wonder what David Wood, Sam shamoun, Nabeel Qureshi, Dr. James White, William lane Craig, and the christians in this blog have to say about this.

cornholio said...

Dom's whining for muslimes is disgusting. Muslimes are persecuting everyone and anyone non-muslime in every, last one of their islamofascist sties. Whether it be the few Hindus and Sikhs who are unfortunate to still live in islamonazi Pakistan or Bangladesh; or the Christians in Pakistan, Indonesia, Malaysia, Nigeria and Egyptistan; or the Jews of Iran; are all suffering persecution at the hands of the islamonazi apes.

Hezekiah Ahaz said...

Samatar,

You're an atheist.

Ok maybe I'm wrong.

Is Jesus God?

andy bell said...

JW is asking a ridiculous question.

Who thinks like that?

Well, muslims don't really think. rational, logical, debate isn't really in their purview.

Islam doesn't care about arguments or facts. That's why it's difficult to debate a muslim. A real debate with a muslim is a battle of fist-a-cuffs. That, they'll understand. Because that's what they've been doing since the beginning with Moohamad.

Argumentum ad baculum is the only way it works in islam. That's why the religion can spread all over, without a single person actually believing in the religion. Islam is not a religion of faith. You can have a whole country whereby no one has iman. But as long as everyone follows the sharia, that's good enough.

Dom said...

Sorry Cornholio. I hope you have not had a bad experience.

Hi Zack

You seemed to be the only one that understands how a debate works. You take the interpretation of a person and tell them where they are wrong and give them what you consider the correct interpretation. It seems others like to bring in other verses trying to establish that Jesus pbuh is God and ignore what I have said.

You stated that Jesus is God due to these verses.

John 6:38-40, Jesus says, "
(38) For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me.
(39) And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.
(40) For this is THE WILL OF MY FATHER, that everyone who looks on THE SON and believes in him [THE SON] should have eternal life, and I [JESUS THE SON] will raise him up on the last day."


These verses to me establish that Jesus pbuh is doing the will of God alone. Jesus has no say in the matter.

For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me.

This at the very least blows the trinity three equal Gods in one out of the water. With no trinity we are looking at three Gods which is clearly wrong.

Verse 44
“No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.

Now it seems God has given Jesus a role on the last day. It is not clear what this is. Jesus pbuh has no choice in who is saved and Jesus pbuh is still doing what God tells him to do even on the last day.

It is clear than Jesus pbuh is not God.

God is greater than I
Without god I can do nothing

If you find verses that states otherwise you are only highlighting contradictions in the scripture.

Dom said...

Hi Sam

"Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal.' Therefore they said to Him, “What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?' Jesus answered and said to them, 'This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.'" John 6:27-29

Of course God wants us to believe all the prophets he sends to us. God has sent Jesus pbuh to the house of Israel to be their light and their way. How long did this light last ?

While I am in the world , I am the light of the world
John 9:5


The light is limited.

Now everyone must follow the Spirit of Truth. The last to be sent. You call him the Comforter.

Radical Moderate said...

@David Wood

WOW your commets to DOM deserve to be a main post. YOu cam out with both barrles blazin then went back and got a canon.

@Dom your no response to David and response to half of what Sam and Zack said was more then predictable.

In a word PATHETIC.

Hezekiah Ahaz said...

Dom,

Did you miss the part in John 12 were it says Isaiah the prophet(peace be upon him) saw his glory i.e. Jesus( Praise his holy name) in Isaiah 6?


It's really not that hard.

Jesus = God.


I honestly don't think you know what a contradiction is.

Hezekiah Ahaz said...

By the way Dom what do you think Jesus was doing in heaven just hanging out?

The Berean Search said...

"Hi Zack

You seemed to be the only one that understands how a debate works. You take the interpretation of a person and tell them where they are wrong and give them what you consider the correct interpretation. It seems others like to bring in other verses trying to establish that Jesus pbuh is God and ignore what I have said."

No Dom. That is not how a debate works. A debate starts with a PREMISE or CLAIM and then opposing sides bring arguments for or against the claim. Your claim is "Jesus is not God" or stated in the affirmative "Jesus is only a man". You provided your evidence consisting of some verses from the New Testament. Zack and Sam argued that you presented those verses eisogetically. David, on the other hand, chose to craft an argument that begins with your Quran to demonstrate that according to your own beliefs Jesus claimed to be God.

I regret to inform you that not only are you the one that doesn't understand how a debate works, you are also losing severly. You don't get to narrow the playing to ONLY the original few verses that you brought to the table. It seems that any logical person should already understand this, so I conclude that either you are totally illogical or you already know this but for tactical reasons you are pretending not to know this in an attempt to rescue an unsalvageable claim.

The Berean Search said...

...should read...

*narrow the playing field

Samatar Mohamed said...

@Hezekiah

"Is Jesus God?"

That is one of the most important differences between Islam and christianity. The greatest crime I can possibly imagine doing is having partners beside Allah (swt). Even murder, rape, adultery do not compare to associating partners with god. And let me emphasize that I love the prophet Esa (pbuh) with all my heart and one day hope to meet such a great man in heaven, as I wish to meet Musa (pbuh), Yusuf (pbuh), Ibrahim (pbuh) and especially the prophet Muhammad (pbuh) who was a mercy to mankind. But God willing, I will never elevate a human being to the level of my creator. Therefore, in short, Jesus (pbuh) is not God almighty.

Zack_Tiang said...

Dom said, "You stated that Jesus is God due to these verses. John 6:38-40"

No, I did not. I quoted that verse to respond to your misinterpretation of what the WILL OF THE FATHER was.

But I do want to point out to you something else that Jesus said in John 6:38-40 that you most likely did not notice.

John 6:38, Jesus says, "For I have come down FROM HEAVEN, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me."

Do you believe Jesus came down from Heaven? Was Jesus already in existence in Heaven (with the Father) before His virgin birth?

-----

Dom said, "This at the very least blows the trinity three equal Gods in one out of the water. With no trinity we are looking at three Gods which is clearly wrong."

Yes, a Trinity of three equal GodS is clearly wrong...
The Trinity of the bible is THREE Equally Divine PERSONS, ONE GOD.

Is it wrong to say a husband, a wife and a child are ONE family? Or are they three families?
If it is correct to describe ONE husband, ONE wife, ONE child as ONE family, then you can't argue the Trinity is wrong to describe ONE Father, ONE Son, and ONE Holy Spirit as ONE God.

Please understand what Christians ACTUALLY believe based on the bible before trying to make a case against us.

------

Dom claimed that Jesus said, "God is greater than I."

Jesus did not say that... He said, "...for THE FATHER is greater than I." Jesus always calls God as His Father. But does this statement mean that Jesus is not God?

My dad is greater than I, therefore I'm not human? Logical? Of course not. It just means I am not my dad.
Same way, Jesus is not His Father, but He is equally divine and God just like His Father; just as I am human being like my dad and share equal authority in the house as my dad.

And if I know my dad's will (assumingly good and right), I can choose to make his will my own and use my authority in the house as I see fit. Does that make me less human or not my dad's son that I seek to fulfill not my own but the will of my dad?

Zack_Tiang said...

Dom claimed Jesus said, "without god I can do nothing"

But once again, you quoted Jesus wrongly. This is what Jesus said...

John 5:19, So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, THE SON can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing. FOR WHATEVER THE FATHER DOES, THAT THE SON DOES LIKEWISE."

Does that really mean Jesus is not God, just because THE SON does what THE FATHER does **no more, no less** and according to the FATHER's will?


John 5:30, Jesus also said, "I can do nothing on my own. As I hear, I JUDGE, and MY JUDGMENT IS JUST, because I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me."

Jesus claims that His judgment is just because He knows the Father's will and follows it perfectly.

Again, does that really mean Jesus is not God, just because THE SON does what THE FATHER does **no more, no less** and according to the FATHER's will?

-----

Dom said, "Now it seems God has given Jesus a role on the last day. It is not clear what this is."

If you had been more knowledgeable in Islam, you would've known that Jesus, the son of Maryam is designated to be the judge of all mankind in the last days.

Sahih Bukhari Volume 4, Book 55, Number 657:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah's Apostle said, "By Him in Whose Hands my soul is, surely (JESUS,) THE SON OF MARY will soon descend amongst you and will JUDGE MANKIND JUSTLY (AS A JUST RULER)..."


Sahih Bukhari Volume 3, Book 43, Number 656:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until THE SON OF MARY (i.e. JESUS) descends amongst you AS A JUST RULER..."


Compared with Surah 114:1-3
Say: I seek refuge in the Lord of mankind,
The King (or Ruler) of Mankind,
The god (or Judge) of Mankind,-


It leaves only that Jesus is Allah, even in Islam.


If you had even some general knowledge of what Jesus says about Himself in the bible, you would've at least known that Jesus Himself taught He will judge all nations in the last days, as Mr David had already quoted for you.

Matthew 25:31-32—“But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.”

And to add on, this is another of what Jesus says about His judgment...

John 5:22-23, Jesus said, "The Father judges no one, but has given ALL judgment to the Son, that ALL MAY HONOR THE SON, JUST AS THEY HONOR THE FATHER. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him."

Do you honor the SON, just as you honor the Father, Dom?
How can you honor the FATHER if you do not honor the SON?


Remember what Jesus said, "For this is THE WILL OF MY FATHER, that everyone who looks on THE SON and believes in him [THE SON] should have eternal life, and I [JESUS THE SON] will raise him up on the last day."

Do you do the will of the Father? Do you even acknowledge God as the Father in Heaven and Jesus as His Beloved Son?

Sam said...

Dom, you need to pay better attention to the texts before assuming that they somehow support Islam.

First, notice Jesus' reference to God as the Father in those passages from John 6. This in itself proves that your god Allah is a false god since your prophet said he is a father to no one and has no children whether spiritually or physically (the latter sense we would deny as well). See, for instance, Quran 5:18; 9:30; 19:88-93; 21:26.

Second, Jesus says that at the last day (yawm al-qiyama) he himself will raise to life all whom the Father gives him. This is a function which Islam ascribes to no one but God.

Moreover, you quoted John 9:5 to show that Jesus is the Light of the world. However, according to Islamic theology, specifically tauhid al-asma wa-sifaat, "the Light" (al-Noor) is one of the names of God which cannot be attributed to any creature.

Therefore, the very text you quoted ends up proving that Jesus claimed to be God, further proving that Islam is a false religion, Muhammad is a false prophet, and that the Allah of the Quran is a false god.

Keep up the great work of helping us prove that Islam is a false religion!

CristoTeAma said...

@Dom. Werent YOU waiting for davids answer to refute him? talking about wanting to remain in darkness.

Hezekiah Ahaz said...

Samatar,

Said: "That is one of the most important differences between Islam and christianity. The greatest crime I can possibly imagine doing is having partners beside Allah (swt). Even murder, rape, adultery do not compare to associating partners with god. And let me emphasize that I love the prophet Esa (pbuh) with all my heart and one day hope to meet such a great man in heaven, as I wish to meet Musa (pbuh), Yusuf (pbuh), Ibrahim (pbuh) and especially the prophet Muhammad (pbuh) who was a mercy to mankind. But God willing, I will never elevate a human being to the level of my creator. Therefore, in short, Jesus (pbuh) is not God almighty."



So, in spite of the evidence you're still going to deny that Jesus God.


Remember Jesus said if you love him you will obey his commandments.



Hebrews 1 " 1God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

 2Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

 3Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

 4Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

 5For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

 6And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

 7And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

 8But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

 9Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

 10And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:

 11They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;

 12And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.

 13But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?

 14Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?




See that Samatar?


Not only is Jesus God but the is the final word of God.

These words were around way before your prophet came around.

I noticed you didn't offer any refutation but merely stated your opinion.

That's my challenge to you Samatar prove to me that Jesus isn't God.

CallingMuslims said...

The Doors of ijtihad i.e independent reasoning were closed 1000 years ago in Islam, nothing is left for the ulama and laymen but to memorize and imitate what was said in the past. Even though this is mainly concerning jurisprudence the mentally permeates all of the Muslim thought. For example the issue of how is God One, a Muslim can not engage in a discussion about the how-ness of God's Oneness(let alone acknowledge the fact that there are other definitions of God being One besides Unitarianism), Imam Malik already said Allah's "attributes" are known and it's a innovation to ask "how" about anything related to them before ijtihad was outlawed. A Muslim of today has one option "following", there can be no critical thinking about God or anything related to the doctrines of Islam unless you want to be a labeled a deviant. So when confronted with rational arguments or clear proofs of scriptures that proceeded Muhammad, the Sahaba, the ulama by hundreds or even thousands of years, it has to be denied, ignored, or explained away. For all intent of purpose in the Muslim mind history and reality began with the Hijrah everything is viewed through those rose colored glasses, nothing exists outside of what the collective body of Muslim scholars have said. Asking the type of questions Christian are rightfully demanding from Muslim would basically get you ostracized, labeled a innovator , a trouble maker for not have strict conformity, I should know. .

dstewart said...

Dom,

The whole Bible IS relevant. If you don't consider the WHOLE context of the verses you quote, then you're guilty of the very same thing people are so often accused of doing with the Qur'an - quoting out of context.

Your claim is not only that Jesus said things that YOU INTERPRET to mean that he can't be divine (We would disagree with that interpretation), but also that Jesus never claimed to be God. To address this, we not only can point out why your interpretation of those passages is incorrect, but any counter-example should suffice to show that Jesus DID claim divinity (The Jews of his time certainly thought he was claiming divinity).

Looking at the passages you're quoting (looking for characteristics, behaviours and statements that INDICATE that Jesus is not divine), then you should see that you aren't even coming up with any clear statement by Jesus saying that he isn't claiming to be divine, something that would have been relevant considering that both his disciples AND the Jews who wanted to kill him understood him to be claiming of himself.

We have no problem with Jesus showing submission to the will of the father. If all virtue comes from the nature of God, then it makes sense that submission is virtuous as it is demonstrated withing the Godhead. Jesus' willing submission to the Father shows that submission is a Godly virtue if you believe that Jesus is divine, but just as a wife can submit to her husband and yet still be equal in God's eyes, so is the Son equal to the Father. Therefore there is no contradiction between verses where Jesus submits to the Father.

I think that addresses most of Dom's interpretations. He shows a lack of understanding of the trinity. 3 Gods as one god as he suggests IS a contradiction, but that's why there is ONE god consisting of complexity of personhood such that there is a plurality of persons. Jesus submits to his Father's will because he is not another God running around doing something that the Father DOESN'T want him to do. THAT would indicate polytheism, the very thing Dom would expect these passages to say in order to support Christ's divinity.

As another thing, the Holy Spirit also does not do his own will, but the will of the Father and of the Son. (Correct me if I'm wrong). Does that indicate that the Holy Spirit isn't divine? Certainly not!

Dom, I don't think you understand what we actually believe or our sources. If you don't even understand what Christians believe, then how can you expect to say anything at all compelling to us?

Beebs said...

This is an argument against the insanity of argumentation with a propagandist mentality. In Islam, where is the standard for belief in truth? I don't see that there is one. Does one have to "believe" anything prior to their submission? No. They do not have to accept Islam as the truth. Islam requires only one's submission. It requires renunciation of the truth in favor of submission and this is what they call "belief". Faithfullness to Islam with no sense of truth. So this mentality is not interested in truth and sees their own "outreach" efforts to be a demand upon them to produce submission and nothing more. Having procured submission of a non-muslim, they have acted "faithfully" to Islam, but not faithfully to a belief in truth. There's no demand or expectation to within Islam. It is pure submission for the sake of submission, not belief. There's no Christian corollary to this mentality. There is no pure "faithfulness to Christianity". There is faithfulness to the truth, and if one believes the truth is Christianity, then "Welcome to the Christian fold." If not, well, that's how it goes. Muslims may come to believe, but the belief does not happen first, as it does in Christianity. They submit first, then they come to believe. Christians believe first and then increasingly submit.

Derek Adams said...

Samatar Mohamed said...

"Is Jesus God?"

That is one of the most important differences between Islam and Christianity. THE GREATEST CRIME I CAN POSSIBLY IMAGINE DOING IS HAVING PARTNERS BESIDES ALLAH (SWT). EVEN MURDER, RAPE, ADULTERY DO NOT COMPARE TO ASSOCIATING PARTNERS WITH GOD ."

This is from the same Samatar who believes that Mohammed prohibits offensive Jihad.

Imagine if the people of the scripture were in their own nations going around raping, murdering and stealing, but to top it all off they commit an even worse crime of worshiping a man who is not God, a crime worthy of death or at the least severe humiliation.

In fact if rape and murder are worthy of death, then a crime worse than rape and murder (belief in partners of Allah) must warrant more than death. Perhaps torture and then death.

Yet according to Samatar, Mohammed sits back and does nothing. Criminals insulting the very dignity of God are running around freely and Mohammed sits back and says "I don't care about it, let God handle it".

And this is why folks like Samatar will always be irrational and inconsistent with their own world view. Don't say something is the worse crime ever and then pretend Mohammed was okay with allowing it when all the evidence suggests otherwise.

Samatar refuted:

http://www.answeringabraham.com/2012/01/quran-929-and-zaatari-and-samatar.html

Derek Adams
www.AnsweringAbraham.com

Derek Adams said...

Why are you so scared to reply Dom?

Perhaps in Doms mind he actually thinks he has some credibility. He thinks that the Gospel of John actually teaches a Muslim Prophet named Issa was going around banging and harping on the oneness of God and the foretellings of a final messenger and following God's will.

If that is the case Dom should explains why he disagrees with Muslim Apologist Shabir Ally who says that:

"The difference is further pronounced as we go from Mark, the first gospel, to John, the last gospel. The image of Jesus in John IS MUCH LARGER than in Mark. Here Jesus takes on COSMIC DIMENSIONS.

In John's gospel Jesus makes the most significant and far-reaching claims about himself. There are many statements in this Gospel where Jesus asserts his own identity. He says:

I am the light of the world.

I am the resurrection and the life.

I am the way, the truth, and the life.

I and the Father are one.

Whoever has seen me has seen the Father."

You see Dom, your own Muslim brother had to bail out of arguing with Christians on John, because he understood what John taught. You however don't have the honor to admit when you are wrong, or do you?

Dom, all anyone has to do ever do to refute you is read the prologue and the bookend of John. The very passages you appeal to teach that Jesus pre-existed in heaven, and will raise the dead at judgement day, an function given to Allah alone in Islam.

Dom you realize according to your own Quran, it APPEARED that Jesus died to ALL of his loved ones, his disciples, the Romans and the Jews?

This was all because Allah cloaked an anonymous man with the appearance of Jesus. Did you forget your own book confirms that Allah deceived every eye witness?

So please stop trying to present anachronistic Islamic theology in the Gospel of John, when your own scholar, and your own book teach the exact opposite.

cornholio said...

@CallingMuslims

Publicly questioning the islamic "faith" in any islamic state will certainly garner you a LOT more trouble than merely "get you ostracized, labeled a innovator , a trouble maker for not have strict conformity", it'll get you imprisoned or dead.