Wednesday, February 1, 2012

Michael Coren and Robert Spencer Discuss Islam and the Shafia "Honor" Killings


minoria said...

Hello Curly

Talking about Robert I have found another transcript:the debate between him and Kreeft,the famous Catholic author:

"Kreeft/Spencer debate transcript: Is the only good Muslim a bad Muslim?"

SGM said...

Lets not forget that honor killings are the only murders that takes place in Islam. Since Murder is Islam’s middle name, we find all sorts of murder in this religion. Murder of apostates. Moslems all over the world are always plotting to murder the Jews. Christians are being murdered every single day all over the Islam world. Even the Moslem trees are involved in murder. They will cry out that there is a Jew or a Christian hiding behind us, kill them.

curly said...

Thank you, Minora again

Dom said...

I am curious on your views on Christians that do honor killings ?

David Wood said...

Dom said: "I am curious on your views on Christians that do honor killings ?"

Well, 91% of honor killings are committed by Muslims, so that only leaves 9% for all other religions combined. This means that such killings are extremely rare for any non-Muslim group.

But if you'd like to know what we would think about the rare "Christian" honor killing, we would condemn it obviously. Christianity condemns such killings, which is why they are so rare among Christians. Islam, however, is grounded in violence, so practices like honor killings thrive.

Dom said...

If people in many religions are doing honour killing then do you think it is more culture than religious belief ?

But if you'd like to know what we would think about the rare
"Christian" honor killing, we would condemn it obviously.

Obviously the majority of the 1.6 billion Muslims in the world would condemn honour killings as well.

That if anyone slays a human being – unless it be [in punishment] for murder or for spreading corruption on earth – it shall be as though he had slain all mankind; whereas, if anyone saves a life, it shall be as though he had saved the lives of all mankind. (5:32)

It is a culture that leads a person to do honour killing. If they followed their belief whether it was Christian or Muslim they would not have done it.

"Satan made me do it"

It just so happen the culture/mind set of certain races of people is that the honour of the family is more important than anything else. People like this navigate towards Islam because the family is a high priority in Islam. These races are predominately Muslim. The Christians of these races have been known to perform the killings as well.

David Wood said...


Why don't you quote what the verse actually says, instead of hacking it to pieces?

Qur'an 5:32--Therefore We prescribed for the Children of Israel that whoso slays a soul not to retaliate for a soul slain, nor for corruption done in the land, shall be as if he had slain mankind altogether; and whoso gives life to a soul, shall be as if he has given life to mankind altogether. Our Messengers have already come to them with the clear signs; then many of them thereafter commit excesses in the earth.

Notice that the teaching was ordained "for the Children of Israel," not for Muslims. The very next verse (5:33) gives the Islamic teaching, and it calls for brutal violence.

But let's just go with the verse as you've misrepresented it. Notice that it allows killing for "corruption." But that's the reasoning behind honor killings! Girls who run around living like Westerners are spreading corruption! And the verse you quoted allows people to kill them for it.

So, try again.

Zack_Tiang said...

YUSUFALI: On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our messengers with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land.
PICKTHAL: For that cause We decreed for the Children of Israel that whosoever killeth a human being for other than manslaughter or corruption in the earth, it shall be as if he had killed all mankind, and whoso saveth the life of one, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind. Our messengers came unto them of old with clear proofs (of Allah's Sovereignty), but afterwards lo! many of them became prodigals in the earth.
SHAKIR: For this reason did We prescribe to the children of Israel that whoever slays a soul, unless it be for manslaughter or for mischief in the land, it is as though he slew all men; and whoever keeps it alive, it is as though he kept alive all men; and certainly Our messengers came to them with clear arguments, but even after that many of them certainly act extravagantly in the land.

Please define 'mischief in the land'/'corruption on the earth' based on the Islamic literature, and we will know whether this verse can be used by those like Dom or not.

But then again, let's not forget that this was decreed to the Children of Israel.... not Muslims.

betwixt said...

Dom, when you try to pin honor killings to culture in an attempt to exonerate Islam, you are not really achieving anything for that purpose except to further highlight Islam's failure to save mankind--that is, despite Muslims' never-ending claims that Islam came as a mercy to us all.

After all these years, Muslims still practice honor killings. What does that tell you about Islam's ability to elevate an entire society's moral standards? So far, contemptible cultural practices, like honor killings, thrive like nobody's business in Muslim societies.

I come from a tribal group in the northern part of the Philippines. Headhunting was a way of life even into the mid-20th century. Christianity helped to eliminate that. I am grateful that Christ found us first before Muslims did.

Fernando said...

Dom said: «Obviously the majority of the 1.6 billion Muslims in the world would condemn honour killings as well»...

are you sure? then why the silence about this aspect in mslims countries where those who commit such barbaric actions are not o be punished? If muhhamad himself ordered the killing of children thate woulde not bee good muslims (does this sound has "honour" killing to you?)... see Sahih Muslim 4457...

Dom said...

Well I totally stuffed that up with quoting the wrong verse. I think I leave this one to the scholars before I fall into anymore traps. :)

An official fatwa to come out tomorrow on honor killings and yes it is considered very serious that people are having conferences on it.

You impression that nothing is being done about it is caused by western press not seeing this sort of thing as news worthy.

Dom said...

Am I missing something Fernando ?

The hadith states not to kill children.

Sahih Muslim Book 019, Hadith Number 4457.

Women participants in jihad to be given a prize but not a regular share in the booty, and prohibition to kill children of the enemy.

The Muslims were out numbered greatly by the Quraish. they were battling to survive. It got to the stage that women were allowed serve to help defend themselves. They generally had nursing roles.

Quraish sent three armies to wipe out the Muslims. Muhammad pbuh found that he had to fight not just for his survival but the survival of the whole city and the religion.

The battle of Badr. Where 950 full armour soldier fought against 320 lightly armed muslims.

The battle of Uhud where the Quraish bitter about the loss at Badr sent an army of 3000 to Madinah fight against the 700 strong muslim force.

The battle of the trench was the final battle where the Quraish recruited people from all over Saudi Arabia. They had a force of 20,000 to the muslims 3,000.

I will end with this quote from Islam at the Crossroads

"History makes it clear, however, that the legend of fanatical Muslims sweeping through the world and forcing Islam at the point of the sword upon conquered races is one of the most fantastically absurd myths that historians have ever accepted." (Islam at the Crossroads, London, 1923, p. 8.).

The fatwah on this

Shaykh Yūsuf al-Qaradāwī issued a fatwā condemning the tragic suicide attacks of 9-11, stating:

Even in times of war, Muslims are not allowed to kill anybody save the one who is indulged in face-to-face confrontation with them.” He added that they are not allowed to kill women, old persons, or children, and that haphazard killing is totally forbidden in Islam.

Shaykh Qaradāwī on another occasion defined terrorism as

“the killing of innocent people...with no differentiation between the innocent and the foe.

Zack_Tiang said...

Dom said...

"Well I totally stuffed that up with quoting the wrong verse. I think I leave this one to the scholars before I fall into anymore traps. :)"

How ironic that putting proper context to a verse you quote was considered a 'trap' by you.

Fernando said...

Hi Don... yes, you're not (willing to) see(ing) all thing: here is the text in question:

«The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) used not to kill the children, so thou shouldst not kill them unless you could know what Khadir had known about the child he killed, or you could distinguish between a child who would grow up to he a believer (and a child who would grow up to be a non-believer), so that you killed the (prospective) non-believer and left the (prospective) believer aside»...

clear enought, no?

and please: do not throuw sand to people who know islam's history, ok? the action against the Quraish was tottaly unjustified except for a person who suffered from psychological pathology of megalomania... period...