Muslims can say what they want but I'll use their own scriptures against them. That's only fair, right?Muhammad himself asked to see the Torah to make a ruling on someone's life. It makes absolutely no sense for him to do that if he thought the texts were corrupt.The Quran itself tells Muslims to refer back to the people of the books if they need knowledge. This is when the Quran bit itself in its own backside. Why in the world ask someone for knowledge if you know they are following a corrupt text?Maybe some of the those "Quranic words" written on rib bones was smeared or something. Maybe a camel or goat chewed on it like Aisha said some of the Quran was eaten by a goat.Refer to your hadith for references. The nonsense is surely in there.
Professor Faouzi Arzouni presented his case almost the same way that I would have. The only difference is that he had a couple of sources that I didn't use; but, that is because I don't have them available.Hopefully, Muslims will listen to him and do their own research and study. He thinks on this subject very much the same way that I do. I felt like I was listening to myself. Nope, that is not like dejavu.
Yes it sure does. By yes, i mean that the Quran does say that the Bible that you believe in has been corrupted in 2:79, 5:13, and 5:41.2:79Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say: "This is from Allah" to traffic with it for a miserable price! Woe to them for what their hands do write and for the gain they make thereby.5:13But because of their breach of their Covenant, We cursed them, and made their hearts grow hard: they change the words from their (right) places and forget a good part of the Message that was sent them, nor wilt thou cease to find them,― barring a few-ever bent on (new) deceits: but forgive them, and overlook (their misdeeds): for Allah loveth those who are kind.5:41O Messenger! let not those grieve thee who race each other into Unbelief: (whether it be) among those who say: "We believe" with their lips but whose hearts have no faith; or it be among the Jews,― men who will listen to any lie,― will listen even to others who have never so much as come to thee. They change the words from their (right) times and places; they say "If ye are given this, take it, but if not, beware:" If anyone's trial is intended by Allah, thou hast no authority in the least for him against Allah. For such it is not Allah's will to purify their hearts. For them there is disgrace in this world, and in the Hereafter a heavy punishment.
Great Sam I guess the Koran just can't make it's mind up.Sam do you love Jesus?
It's interesting that Sam doesn't even bother to interact with the three clips Dave posted but with the wave of a hand he like a magic wand makes things true.Amazing.
Who cares what the quran claims. The quran claims that the world is flat. It was written by illiterate bedouins who didn't know how babies were made. People who follow the quran are morons. Just look at these societies that do. All of them suck and are no way for humans to live.
Yeah...Keep misinforming the public about Islam. Earn the sins of deceiving everyone into hostility over some misinformation. You truly are a Christian God fearing person.What a hypocrite..Those 3 videos are copy and pastes of some verses and it excludes a whole ton of other evidence from the Quran about the Bible's corruption.We all know you are in a state of denial about Islam and you're desperate to cover its light and only the brainless bigots that believe every word of what you say support you.No matter...God's light will prevail.
Semantics tagiyya. Mohammad's Allah is NOT the God of the Bible. God's word is NOT synonymous with the words written in the Qur'an. The Qur'an contradicts the Bible, not the other way around. The Bible says the Word (of God) was made flesh, and the Qur'an denies this. The Bible curses anyone who adds to it or takes away from it, as the Qur'an does. The Word of God is NOT the Qur'an. The Qur'an is the corrupted understanding of Mohammad, taken from the apocryphal/gnostic writings (novels based on legends). Those (apocryphal/gnostic writings) maybe misrepresent the Bible, but that does NOT give the Qur'an any credibility whatsoever.
Kangaroo,How do you know Satan is not tricking you?Why should I believe a man(Muhammad) who was depressed, suicidal and thought he was demon possessedOh yea and who admitted that Satan tricked him?That's my challenge to you Kangaroo:How do you know your not possessed by a demon?Tell us really how is that you are not delusional?
Samatar Mohamed said..."Yes it sure does. By yes, i mean that the Quran does say that the Bible that you believe in has been corrupted in 2:79, 5:13, and 5:41."Well, let's examine them. Shall we?----------------"2:79Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say: "This is from Allah" to traffic with it for a miserable price! Woe to them for what their hands do write and for the gain they make thereby."This is not an indictment on all, but some. In fact, the context seems to be dealing with those who live near Mohammad. ----------------"5:13But because of their breach of their Covenant, We cursed them, and made their hearts grow hard: they change the words from their (right) places and forget a good part of the Message that was sent them, nor wilt thou cease to find them,― barring a few-ever bent on (new) deceits: but forgive them, and overlook (their misdeeds): for Allah loveth those who are kind."Sahih International - 5:13"So for their breaking of the covenant We cursed them and made their hearts hard. They distort words from their [proper] usages and have forgotten a portion of that of which they were reminded. And you will still observe deceit among them, except a few of them. But pardon them and overlook [their misdeeds]. Indeed, Allah loves the doers of good."The Sahih version shows that the text was not changed but the interpretations were instead. They also forgot a portion of what they were given. So, their misinterpretation or reinterpretation caused them to create lies and make deceit. This couldn't happen if they didn't have the uncorrupted text by which to misinterpret or reinterpret. Forgetting portions is not the same as not having it (the book(s)). Again, this does not support a whole scale corruption. Also, keep in mind that not all of them suffered this fate. As evidenced from 5:13, some still would have had the uncorrupted version and would have known the truth and would have continued to spread it to others. Surely Allah does protect his word as he says in the Qu'ran. This passage also seems to be speaking of locals only.---------------- to be continued
continued........."5:41O Messenger! let not those grieve thee who race each other into Unbelief: (whether it be) among those who say: "We believe" with their lips but whose hearts have no faith; or it be among the Jews,― men who will listen to any lie,― will listen even to others who have never so much as come to thee. They change the words from their (right) times and places; they say "If ye are given this, take it, but if not, beware:" If anyone's trial is intended by Allah, thou hast no authority in the least for him against Allah. For such it is not Allah's will to purify their hearts. For them there is disgrace in this world, and in the Hereafter a heavy punishment."Sahih International - 5:41"O Messenger, let them not grieve you who hasten into disbelief of those who say, "We believe" with their mouths, but their hearts believe not, and from among the Jews. [They are] avid listeners to falsehood, listening to another people who have not come to you. They distort words beyond their [proper] usages, saying "If you are given this, take it; but if you are not given it, then beware." But he for whom Allah intends fitnah - never will you possess [power to do] for him a thing against Allah . Those are the ones for whom Allah does not intend to purify their hearts. For them in this world is disgrace, and for them in the Hereafter is a great punishment."How can they change the words from their right places and times if they have a corrupted book? How is that possible? Again, this is addressed to a specific group of people--not everyone--and most likely local people Mohammad encountered.Now getting back to the overall problem with your quoting these verses, do you understand that 5:43 which is also in the same chapter where you quoted two other verses states the following:Sahih International - 5:43"But how is it that they come to you for judgement while they have the Torah, in which is the judgement of Allah ? Then they turn away, [even] after that; but those are not [in fact] believers."This verse clearly states that the Torah available in Mohammad's time is the same one given by Allah. If not, how could Allah say to Mohammad that they should be making judgments from the Torah instead of asking him? How can 5:43 be true as well as those you just quoted? It is impossible unless those other verses are conditional only on some of the People of the Book. Given what I have presented, you can't justify your position without calling the Qu'ran a lie.
Scatch head on this one...I honestly do not know what to make of this.
So I guess that the argument then against what the bible teaches and that is the DIETY of Christ, his cruciction and being raised from the dead is just our mis interpritation?I guess that is what he would argue.
RM,Exactly, I guess when Jesus talked about his death, burial and resurrection he really meant he wouldn't die, be buried or resurrected.That's amazing.I'm still waiting for my Muslim friends to interact with the clips instead resorting to the ad hominems and waving of the magic wand.
Radical Moderate said..."So I guess that the argument then against what the bible teaches and that is the DIETY of Christ, his cruciction and being raised from the dead is just our mis interpritation?I guess that is what he would argue."That's basically what I suspect because there is no way that he is going to say that the Qu'ran is a false book.I guess that it is not impossible to come up with a scenario that avoids calling the Bible corrupt while creating different intended meanings. Just take a look at the Bahai's. Their claim is that many literal interpretations are to be interpreted non-literally and vice versa for some non literal ones.
To muslims,Bring 2 muslim + 4 non muslim authenticated complete copies of pre mohamad Bibles to prove your claim that it has been corrupted.If you cannot do this you are guilty of making false claims and also are guilty of hate speach against a reconised religion.
Hezekiah Ahaz said..."RM,Exactly, I guess when Jesus talked about his death, burial and resurrection he really meant he wouldn't die, be buried or resurrected.That's amazing.I'm still waiting for my Muslim friends to interact with the clips instead resorting to the ad hominems and waving of the magic wand."Of course, if they neglect commenting that means that they concede the point; however, they will pretend that the point doesn't really have merit. They are hoping that you take their bite and go along with their scheme which always leads to a non sequitur or tu quoque. By that time, they have declared themselves victorious--not necessarily because they have a legitimate point but because they have lead you away from the initial discussion. So, it is a victory of sorts even if they don't really refute the OP. I suppose that we should pat them on their backs for a job well done.
It is my job to handle all the ad hominem stuff around here. Well, not really, but I do get a kick out of it, so I thought I would reply to Kangaroo, a man who claims we are trying to cover Allah's light when he is obviously desperately trying to jump over all the pitfalls the Qur'an puts in his path like he is some kind of animal from the Australian outback.Kangaroo said: "Yeah...Keep misinforming the public about Islam. Earn the sins of deceiving everyone into hostility over some misinformation. You truly are a Christian God fearing person."It is a serious charge to accuse someone of misinforming others about what God says. But I will give you this, it is not as serious as charging God with failure for not being able to prevent others from corrupting what he gave as guidance and light. The former is what you accuse us of; the latter is what you admit to.Kangaroo said: What a hypocrite..Those 3 videos are copy and pastes of some verses and it excludes a whole ton of other evidence from the Quran about the Bible's corruption."So the Qur'an contradicts itself? I actually don't think it contradicts itself as your reply unwittingly suggests that it does. I think you are misinterpreting verses in the Qur'an that either speak of corruption with the tongue rather than of the text, or you are universalizing statements made in the Qur'an about what a subset of the Jews did who were living in Arabia at the time of Muhammad.Kangaroo said: "We all know you are in a state of denial about Islam and you're desperate to cover its light and only the brainless bigots that believe every word of what you say support you."We all know this? I thought some of us were brainless bigots? That was pretty brainless of you, wouldn't you say? You must support every word that is said around here.Kangaroo said: "No matter...God's light will prevail."You mean like Allah said Christianity would prevail?"Behold! God said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection: Then shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute."(S. 3:55)"O ye who believe! Be ye helpers of God: As said Jesus the son of Mary to the Disciples, "Who will be my helpers to (the work of) God?" Said the disciples, "We are God's helpers!" then a portion of the Children of Israel believed, and a portion disbelieved: But We gave power to those who believed, against their enemies, and they became the ones that prevailed." (S. 61:14)Notice:Allah said the true followers of Christ would prevail over those who did not, and that they would be superior to the day of resurrection. Since apostolic Christianity, inclusive of the teachings of Paul, is the version of Christianity that has prevailed, which means it is what Allah must have been talking about in those two verses if he spoke the truth and wasn't deceiving everyone once again, and since you say it is Allah's light that is what prevails, then of necessity Christianity is to be equated with Allah's light.
Also I'm just going to say that if arguementa for or against the Quran come down to LANGUAGE translation then surely Allah is incompetent. He can't even send a book down that when translated into another language makes absolutely no sense. People who speak Spanish are arguing with other people about translated words from Arabic because they say this word means this and not that. Same for German, Itiialian, French, etc. We just happen to be using English.
That's right, Anthony Rogers.The best case for Muslims that the bible is corrupted is that SOME have corrupted it... but never ALL.That's their best case, and even then, the Quran and early commentaries don't support that.
greetings, Mr. Wood, in the NAME which is above every name,noticed the books in the bookcase - 10vol. Kittel's and some others that appear similar to one's in my own personal library.Are you able to say if this man is a Muslim or a Christian? Even if a Christian or a convert, he seems quite authoritative, especially since he cites references for his quotations.Many thanks for your excellent work. Also, watched your debate with Loftus - liked the combo of presupp and evidential apologetics. Your debate technique is really quite excellent, refined, and polished. You really ought to be more widely known as a debater. I'm guessing that the lack of a PhD (if i'm correct on this point) might be a factor. Certainly, you were as scholarly, IMO, as many PhD's and ThD's that i've heard debate. Good job, Sir. The Lord will reward you for your efforts to glorify Him.sincerely yours because of HIM,agrammatos
@Sam,are you saying that Qur'an has contradictions in it?
Mr. Woods, he confuses me with the "peace be upon him" repeatedly used. Is he just attempting to not give offense?Oh well, it doesn't affect his presentation, nor the facts and truth he is conveying.
People Islam did not create praying 5 times a day. Jews and Christins did it 600+ years before Muhammad.People Islam did not create "peace be into you.". Read the letters of John.2 Jn 1:33 Jn 1:15Islam didn't create really anything, they just recycled what other people's did in the past.Everytime I see a Christian in public I try to say "peace.". Not because Muslims do it, they stole it, but because the Word Of God, has it.If you learn anything about the Early Church you learn people's had respect for each other. Unbelievable respect.
Grace, mercy and peace will be with us, from God the Father and from Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love. (2 John 1:3 NASB)Peace be to you. The friends greet you. Greet the friends by name. (3 John 1:15 NASB)May mercy and peace and love be multiplied to you. (Jude 1:2 NASB)Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord; (2 Peter 1:2 NASB)according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure. (1 Peter 1:2 NASB)Grace be with you all. (Hebrews 13:25 NASB)Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ, (Galatians 1:3 NASB)Those are just some of them. All Christians should be saying peace be unto you to other Christians. Sorry Muslims if you thought you were original.
"Notice:Allah said the true followers of Christ would prevail over those who did not, and that they would be superior to the day of resurrection." They are the true believers of Jesus Christ (as) and those are the Muslims, not the people that decided to follow random deceivers like Paul and the forgeries that took place in the Bible.
Kim and Samatar, stop posting your nonsense which has been refuted hundreds of times. Here are the links which addresses and refutes your links and verses from the Quran which you misquoted:How does Islam view the Bible? (http://answering-islam.org/Quran/Bible/index.html)he incorruptibility of Allah’s words and the charge of Biblical corruption(http://answering-islam.org/authors/shamoun/word_incorruptible.html)The Point Still Remains – The Quran Affirms That God’s Revealed Words Cannot Be Changed! (http://answering-islam.org/authors/shamoun/rebuttals/zawadi/gods_words_unchangable.html)http://answering-islam.org/authors/shamoun/rebuttals/zawadi/gods_words_unchangable_r1.htmlhttp://answering-islam.org/authors/shamoun/rebuttals/zawadi/gods_words_unchangable_r2.htmlThe Quran’s View of the Holy Bible Revisited Pt. 1 (http://answering-islam.org/authors/shamoun/rebuttals/williams/quran_on_bible1.html)The Quran’s View of the Holy Bible Revisited Pt. 2 (http://answering-islam.org/authors/shamoun/rebuttals/williams/quran_on_bible2.html)Muhammad and His Prophethood Part 2 (http://answering-islam.org/authors/shamoun/rebuttals/zaatari/mo-false2.html)
Anthony Rogers said..."It is my job to handle all the ad hominem stuff around here."Maybe we should call you Mr. Cleanup or the Adhom Assassin.
It's evident that Kangaroo is not goign to take on my challenge but here it is again:How do you know Satan is not tricking you?Why should I believe a man(Muhammad) who was depressed, suicidal and thought he was demon possessedOh yea and who admitted that Satan tricked him?That's my challenge to you Kangaroo:How do you know you are not possessed by a demon?Tell us really how is that you are not delusional?
Samatar, none of those of those verses claim tahrif of the Bible. The fact that you have to bend and twist your Quran by ripping verses out of context to try to wishfully respond to the wealth of evidence in these videos is quite telling. I will quote your own scholars in tafsir to prove you are wrong:Regarding 2:79Al-Wahidi: (Therefore woe be unto those who write the Scripture with their hands and then say, “This is from Allah”…) [2:79]. This was revealed about those who had changed the description of the Prophet, Allah bless him and give him peace, and altered his traits. Al-Kalbi mentioned, through the above-mentioned chain of transmission: “They had changed the description of Allah’s Messenger, Allah bless him and give him peace, in their Scripture. They made him white and tall while the Prophet, Allah bless him and give him peace, was brown and of medium height. They had said to their followers and companions: ‘Look at the description of the prophet who will be sent at the end of time; his description does not match that of this [man]’. The Jewish rabbis and doctors used to gain some worldly benefits from the Jewish people and so they were afraid of losing this gain if they were ever to show the real description. It is for this reason that they had changed it”. Regarding 5:13Ibn Abbas: Allah then explained the punishment of those who had disbelieved, saying: (And because of their) i.e. the kings (breaking their covenant, We have cursed them) We punished them through imposing the capitation tax upon them (and made hard) and lightless (their hearts. They change words from their context) they change the traits and description of Muhammad (pbuh) and the legal ruling on stoning [married people who fornicate] after this was exposited upon in the Torah (and forget a part) and leave part (of that whereof they were admonished) they were commanded with in the Torah concerning their following of Muhammad (pbuh) and manifesting his traits and description to others. Allah then showed their betrayal of the Prophet (pbuh) saying: (Thou wilt not) O Muhammad (cease to discover treachery) and contravention (from all) i.e. the Banu Qurayzah (save a few of them) 'Abdullah Ibn Salam and his followers. (But bear with them) and punish them not (and pardon them) and leave them. (Lo! Allah loveth the kindly) towards others. -cont-
Regardig 5:41Ibn Abbas: (O Messenger!) O Muhammad (Let not them grieve you who vie one with another in the race to disbelief) in allying themselves with the disbelievers in this world and in the Hereafter, (of such as say with their mouths) with their tongues: (“We believe,”) in our hearts (but their hearts believe not) i.e. the hearts of the hypocrites, 'Abdullah Ibn Ubayy and his followers, (and of the Jews) i.e. the Jews of the Banu Qurayzah, Ka'b and his followers: (listeners for the sake of falsehood) listeners of untruth, (listeners on behalf of other folk) the people of Khaybar (who come not unto thee) regarding what happened among them, but Banu Qurayzah asked about them, (changing words) changing the traits and description of Muhammad and the legal ruling on the stoning of married people who commit adultery (from their context) after being exposited in the Torah (and saying) i.e. the leaders to their followers; it is also said: the hypocrites 'Abdullah Ibn Ubayy and his followers: (If this be given unto you) if Muhammad (pbuh) command you to whip [married people who committed adultery], (receive it) accept it from him and act according to it (but if this be not given unto you) if Muhammad does not command you to whip them and instead commands you to stone them, (then beware!) i.e. beware of following him if does not command you to whip them and, instead, commands you to stone them. Allah said: (He whom Allah doometh unto sin) he whom Allah wants to persist in his disbelief and idolatry; it is also said: he whom Allah wants to expose; and it is also said that this means: he whom Allah wants to test, (thou (by thine efforts) will avail him naught against Allah) against Allah's punishment. (Those are) the Jews and the hypocrites (they for whom the will of Allah is that He cleanse not their hearts) from scheming, treachery and persistence in disbelief. (Theirs in the world will be ignominy) punishment through killing and expulsion, (and in the Hereafter an awful doom) more severe than the punishment they suffer in this world; -cont-
Al-Wahidi: (O Messenger! Let not them grieve thee who vie one with another in the race to disbelief…) [5:41-47]. Abu Bakr Ahmad ibn al-Hasan al-Hiri informed us by dictation> Abu Muhammad, the chamberlain of Ibn Ahmad al-Tusi> Muhammad ibn Hammad al-Abiwardi> Abu Mu'awiyah> al-A'mash> 'Abd Allah ibn Murrah> al-Bara' ibn 'Azib who said: “One day, the Messenger of Allah, Allah bless him and give him peace, passed by a Jewish man who had just been flogged and had his face darkened with coal. He summoned the Jews and asked them: 'Is this what your Scripture decrees as punishment for the adulterer?' 'Yes!' they replied. He then summoned one of their doctors and asked him: 'I implore you by Allah who has sent the Torah to Moses, is this what your Scripture decrees as punishment for the adulterer'. He said: 'No! And if you had not implored me by Allah, I would not tell you. Our Scripture rules that the punishment of the adulterer is stoning. But it became widespread among our notables. Initially, when one of the notables committed adultery, we left him unpunished while we applied stoning on the communality in cases of adultery. Then we decided to look for a punishment that was applied on both the notables and communality of people. And so we agreed on darkening the face with coal and flogging to replace stoning'. The Messenger of Allah, Allah bless him and give him peace, said: 'O Allah! I am the first to reapply your command after they had suspended it'. And he ordered that the Jewish man be stoned. Allah, exalted is He, then revealed (O Messenger! Let not them grieve thee who vie one with another in the race to disbelief) up to His words (If this be given unto you, receive it…), they said: 'Go to Muhammad; if he directs you to flog the adulterer and darken his face with coal and apply flogging, then follow him. But do not follow him if he directs you to apply stoning on him'. Up to His words (Whoso judgeth not by that which Allah hath revealed: such are disbelievers) [5:44]. He said: 'This relates to the Jews'. Up to His words (Whoso judgeth not by that which Allah hath revealed: such are wrong-doers) [5:45]. He said: 'This relates to the Christians'. As has already been mentioned, Samatar, you are taking words that speak about a very specific group amongst the Jews and you are attempting to make it a global all encompassing claim of textual corruption. Your view is not supported by the Quran itself, nor the historical understanding of these verses within the Muslim sources. Also, if you are correct in your understanding, then the Quran is self contradictory because the verses cited in the video from Surah Yunnas etc., which explicitly say that the revealed words of Allah cannot be corrupted or changed, contradict what you are claiming the Quran is saying. So Samatar, if you are wrong the Quran confirms we have the uncorrupted words of Allah in the Bible, but if you are right the Quran contradicts itself and by its own standard (Sura 4:82) it is not the word of God.I would also recommend this video from the same author on Surah 2:79 - www.youtube.com/watch?v=xbeUXYwhGs8
Kangaroo,Your claim that the Quran is speaking of Muslim followers of Jesus in Surah 3:55 and 61:14 is not only anachronistic to what your own scholars have always taught and believed, but it also renders the words in those ayat as nonsense and according to you, Allah in the Quran is both a liar and inept.If there were some mythical “Muslim followers of Jesus” in the 600 or so years before Muhammad they left absolutely no historical evidence of there existence. On top of that, they were NOT made victorious by Allah because the message that dominated from the Disciples and from the “party who believed” preached the deity, death and resurrection of Jesus. So according to you, Allah failed to do what he claimed because for over 600 years there were “Muslim followers of Jesus” being strengthened and dominant in there message. Your reading of these verses make Allah a liar. Now I will let your own scholars refute your abuse of the text of the Quran:Ibn Kathir: (14. O you who believe! Be you helpers (in the cause) of Allah as said `Isa, son of Maryam, to the Hawariyyin (the disciples): "Who are my helpers (in the cause) of Allah'' The Hawariyyun said: "We are Allah's helpers'' (i.e., we will strive in His cause!). Then a group of the Children of Israel believed and a group disbelieved. So, We gave power to those who believed against their enemies, and they became the victorious (uppermost).) Al-Jalalayn: O you who believe, be helpers of God, of His religion (a variant reading [of ansāran li’Llāhi] has the genitive annexation ansāra’Llāhi) just as said (kamā qāla to the end [of the statement] means ‘just as the disciples were so’, as is indicated by [what follows]) Jesus son of Mary to the disciples, ‘Who will be my helpers unto God?’, that is to say, who [of you] will be helpers alongside me turning to help God? The disciples said, ‘We will be God’s helpers!’ [These] al-hawāriyyūn [were] the intimates of Jesus, for they were the first to believe in him. They were twelve men of pure white complexion (hawar); but it is also said that [their epithet derives from the fact that] they were bleachers (qassārūn) who bleached (yuhawwirūna) clothes. So a group of the Children of Israel believed, in Jesus, saying: ‘He is [indeed] the servant of God, [who has been] raised to heaven’, while a group disbelieved, because they said that he was the son of God, whom He had raised unto Himself. Thus the two groups waged war against one another. Then We strengthened those who believed, of the two groups, against their enemy, the disbelieving groups, and so they became the triumphant, the victors. As you can see Kangaroo your scholars all say that it was specifically the Disciples, whom history shows preached the deity, death and resurrection of Jesus whom your Quran claims Allah strengthened and supported, and it claims this is the message he helped to be dominant.
correction in my response to Kangaroo:"So according to you, Allah failed to do what he claimed because for over 600 years there were “Muslim followers of Jesus” being strengthened and dominant in there message."...should read...So according to you, Allah failed to do what he claimed because for over 600 years there were NO “Muslim followers of Jesus” being strengthened and dominant in their message.
"So a group of the Children of Israel believed, in Jesus, saying: ‘He is [indeed] the servant of God, [who has been] raised to heaven’, while a group disbelieved, because they said that he was the son of God, whom He had raised unto Himself. Thus the two groups waged war against one another. Then We strengthened those who believed, of the two groups, against their enemy, the disbelieving groups, and so they became the triumphant, the victors. As you can see Kangaroo your scholars all say that it was specifically the Disciples, whom history shows preached the deity, death and resurrection of Jesus whom your Quran claims Allah strengthened and supported, and it claims this is the message he helped to be dominant"As you can see, Muslim scholars say that the ones that disbelieved in Jesus by claiming He was the Son of God lost the battle, and the ones that believed he was only a servant of Allah won the battle.Then others, like Paul came forward and corrupted the message further.
Kangaroo said, "As you can see, Muslim scholars say that the ones that disbelieved in Jesus by claiming He was the Son of God lost the battle, and the ones that believed he was only a servant of Allah won the battle.Then others, like Paul came forward and corrupted the message further."Kangaroo,That would certainly fit with your understanding of S. 61:14, but it certainly contradicts S. 3:55."Behold! God said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection: Then shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute."(S. 3:55)If false followers like Paul and others are "came forward and corrupted the message further", that means Allah failed to keep his promise and that mere mortals have succeeded over Allah.
@ Kim and any other Muslim"[en.shakir] And how do they make you a judge and they have the Taurat wherein is Allah's judgment? Yet they turn back after that, and these are not the believers. [yusufali] But why do they come to thee for decision, when they have (their own) law before them?- therein is the (plain) command of Allah; yet even after that, they would turn away. For they are not (really) People of Faith. [en.sahih] But how is it that they come to you for judgement while they have the Torah, in which is the judgement of Allah? Then they turn away, [even] after that; but those are not [in fact] believers. "Now, ask yourself. How can Mohammad make such a statement if the Torah was corrupted? Also, how could Mohammad use the Torah to make the judgment of adultery on a Jewish couple if it is corrupted?----------------Partial Translation of Sunan Abu-Dawud, Book 38: Prescribed Punishments (Kitab Al-Hudud)"Book 38, Number 4434: Narrated Abdullah Ibn Umar: A group of Jews came and invited the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) to Quff. So he visited them in their school. They said: AbulQasim, one of our men has committed fornication with a woman; so pronounce judgment upon them. They placed a cushion for the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) who sat on it and said: Bring the Torah. It was then brought. He then withdrew the cushion from beneath him and placed the Torah on it saying: I believed in thee and in Him Who revealed thee. He then said: Bring me one who is learned among you. Then a young man was brought. The transmitter then mentioned the rest of the tradition of stoning similar to the one transmitted by Malik from Nafi'(No. 4431).Book 38, Number 4435: Narrated AbuHurayrah: (This is Ma'mar's version which is more accurate.) A man and a woman of the Jews committed fornication. Some of them said to the others: Let us go to this Prophet, for he has been sent with an easy law. If he gives a judgment lighter than stoning, we shall accept it, and argue about it with Allah, saying: It is a judgment of one of your prophets. So they came to the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) who was sitting in the mosque among his companions. They said: AbulQasim, what do you think about a man and a woman who committed fornication? He did not speak to them a word till he went to their school. He stood at the gate and said: I adjure you by Allah Who revealed the Torah to Moses, what (punishment) do you find in the Torah for a person who commits fornication, if he is married? They said: He shall be blackened with charcoal, taken round a donkey among the people, and flogged. A young man among them kept silent. When the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) emphatically adjured him, he said: By Allah, since you have adjured us (we inform you that) we find stoning in the Torah (is the punishment for fornication). The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: So when did you lessen the severity of Allah's command? He said: A relative of one of our kings had committed fornication, but his stoning was suspended. Then a man of a family of common people committed fornication. He was to have been stoned, but his people intervened and said: Our man shall not be stoned until you bring your man and stone him. So they made a compromise on this punishment between them. The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: So I decide in accordance with what the Torah says. He then commanded regarding them and they were stoned to death. Az-Zuhri said: We have been informed that this verse was revealed about them: "It was We Who revealed the Law (to Moses): therein was guidance and light. By its standard have been judged the Jews, by the Prophet who bowed (as in Islam) to Allah's will."Certainly, Mohammad used the existing Torah of his time to make rulings; so, how can you or any other Muslim honestly argue that Mohammad held a corrupted Torah in his hands?
I think instead of playing Kangaroo's game we should all give him the silent treatment until he meets my challenge.However, I highly doubt he will be able to it meet you know Islam just doesn't have the answer.It's kind of funny to think about how Kangaroo doesn't know if he is possessed or not.I say he is.
Anyone have a BIO on this guy.Dr White says he is a "CONVERT" I can just hear from other Muslims."Oh he is a convert he doesnt know Islam".
"As you can see, Muslim scholars say that the ones that disbelieved in Jesus by claiming He was the Son of God lost the battle, and the ones that believed he was only a servant of Allah won the battle.Then others, like Paul came forward and corrupted the message further."Kangaroo,You seem to be selectively ignoring part of my reply. Even though a tafsir mentions against the teaching that Jesus is the Son, the clear words of your Quran say that the followers of Jesus will be uppermost from the 1st century until the Day of Judgement. You also conveniently have ignored the parts of the tafsir that contradict your claims. As I mentioned in my previous response, you have no evidence of any group of "Muslim followers of Jesus" from the time of Jesus' ministry until the time of Muhammad. If this is true, Allah lied in the Quran, and was unable for over 600 years to make the "true followers of Jesus" uppermost. Can you show me historical evidence of who the "true followers of Jesus" were from the 1st century until the time of Muhammad? Your Quran says the "true followers of Jesus" and their message must be dominant during that time."...Muslim scholars say that the ones that disbelieved in Jesus by claiming He was the Son of God lost the battle, and the ones that believed he was only a servant of Allah won the battle."The problem for you is, the ones who claimed Jesus is the Son of God actually WON the battle with their message becoming dominant. According to your Quran the dominant message is the one that Allah himself strengthened.
I do not know or have his bio... but I do recall watching him share his testimony.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20rpS3Q06IM
Osama Abdullah.. Where are you? Muslim need you to defence islam.
@ Andish i used the same methods on a muslim on you tube this is the response i get. he can;t refute me and ends up accusing me of hacking his account.fact1i don;t know how to hackfact2what would i gain from hacking him?fact3 i answer his questions about christianity but he accuses me of deflecting it. i pointed out that allah has issues with justice and ours do not have that conflictfact 4 i used david's and sam's work from haddith and quran on him and he accuses me of twisting the facts even though the verses clearly told that it says non muslims go to hell and i also used the contradiction the quran has with those versesfact 5he accuse me of seeling christianity to him. aren;t muslims doing the same with misinformation instead?he then blocks me and told me not to reply and accuse me of hacking.
Dear Dr. David,Nice videos.Thank you very much for the videos. My duty now is to make sure that I hand them over to some muslims. Dr. David, brother Sam you are the stars of our generation. I LOVE you indeed and my prayer is that MAY YAHWEH BLESS YOU INDEED.MAY GOD BLESS you all brethren.
@ma huasheng Mr. Woods, he confuses me with the "peace be upon him" repeatedly used. Is he just attempting to not give offense?I agree with you. He seemed very knowledgeable of Islam and yet is saying something that I have heard no Muslim say about early Qur'an commentators. Yet the PBUH is curious. David, Nabeel,IS HE MUSLIM? Please explain.
David and Nabeel,Thank you for taking the time to make these videos. Where did you find this guy? Is he a Muslim?I forwarded the link to these videos to a family whose daughter converter to Islam.Knowing that a Muslim should look at the Biblical text as written by Allah and uncorrupted should help considerably.
I've watched his other videos. I also think it is curious how he says PBUH like a Muslim would after saying a prophet's name. It was especially curious when he said PBUH after mentioning Adam's and Muhammad's names. Aside from that, everything he says sounds kosher. I wonder if he is a very recent convert or if he "speaks like a Muslim" to make his points more accessible to Muslim listeners.
The true followers of Jesus yes.http://www.onislam.net/english/ask-about-islam/faith-and-worship/islamic-creed/168298-on-the-followers-of-jesus.html
>>I wonder if he is a very recent convert or if he "speaks like a Muslim" to make his points more accessible to Muslim listeners.>>Definitely not a recent convert; check out the following biography:http://www.arzouni.com/index.php/static/who_we_are/Grace and peace,David
@David WaltzThank you for the link. Knowing that he's worked in Mali explains (to me, at least) why he says PBUH indiscriminately.
To David Wood, Thank you for sharing this video. Unfortunately, I can't hear them. But, they show some suras prove Bible is not corrupt, so it is what I need to look for... Thank you again.
@ Samatar, Thank you for coming this blog. I like to see your view.
If he is an Arabic speaker doesn't he know he is sending prayers and blessings on a false prophet?I also find his selection of quotations very selective. I'd prefer he handle the verses brought up by his opponents, such as 2:79, 5:13, Ibn Abbas in Bukhari who says the people had changed their book, and perhaps a host of quotes from Ibn Kathir who believes the scriptures are corrupt and address this. But his original fundamental point was great. Who could charge God with allowing his own scriptures to be corrupted? Now that is blasphemous. Saying God allowed his people to fall into sin and punish them is one thing. Saying God's very pure words were altered is a irreconcilable charge against God. It's also an insult to the Muslim version of Abraham, Moses and Jesus who lived their lives by that word.Derek Adamswww.AnsweringAbraham.com
Dear Muslims,The biggest question is “The Holy Bible” change at the time of Muhammad or after? BEFORE MUHAMMAD: Some claim that the Injil and Torah were corrupted before the coming of the prophet of Islam. If that was the cause, why does the Qur’an affirm that the message revealed to Muhammad was simply a confirmation of the previous Scriptures? According to the Qur’an which was written approximately seven hundred years after the writing of the Injil, the Torah and the Injil were in pure form in Muhammad’s time. Had the Injil not been genuine and totally accurate in the time of Muhammad, then the Qur’an would not have instructed Christians to judge by that which God had revealed in the Gospel.AFTER MUHAMMAD: Other charges that the Torah and the Injil were changed sometime after Muhammad began preaching. However, this charge contradicts the Qur’an since it claims to be the guardian of the previous inspired books. Thus anyone who charges that there has been corruption of the text of the Torah or of the Injil also inevitable, charges the Qur’an with failure in its role as guardian!If Muslims still say that bible has been change they are accusing Muhammad being lair and false prophet, because he does not know that before or after his death bible is going to change and he is writing so many verses in Qur’an in favour of the previous books. Peace.
Well! What can I say? This is an overall good message but do we really need the quran to validate the bible? I dont think so. The quran endemically contradictory and is so inconsistent with previous books that it cannot validate itself talk less of validating other books. What do you do with the afterlife of the quran juxtaposed to the bible? There is simply no comparison! There are thousands of evidences to support the accuracy of the bible on the other hand the oldest manuscript of the quran in Yemen is under lock and key, any intellectual scrutiny of it is deeply frowned upon and can even get you killed. What are the muslims hiding? Islam as far as I am concerned is simply a Farce and nothing else. In the Koran its evident that allah contradicts himself many times. How trustworthy can such a book be?
Kim,"The true followers of Jesus yes."Did you read any of the links Sam posted which completely refute the nonsensical position in your link?Better yet, are you capable of thinking for yourself and formulating arguments in your own words? Or is it part of being a Muslima letting other do all your thinking and speaking for you?Please explain to me about these "true followers of Jesus" that you mention. Where can I find historical evidence from the 1st century of them that shows their message being victorious like your Quran says? Your Quran divides the Jews into exactly 2 parties; one who believe that Jesus spoke the truth and one who disbelieved. We know from all historical evidence that in the 1st century the Jews who disbelieved (the Pharisees, Sadducees, etc.) claimed that Jesus was a false prophet, while the Jews who believed Jesus preached his death and resurrection. Yet, for some reason the link you posted wants to create yet a 3rd party in the 1st century that believed in Jesus, but according to the message of the Quran. You have to contradict your Quran to create this 3rd party. You also have to believe that they left absolutely no evidence of their existence. Then upon believing they left no evidence that they exist, you are calling Allah a liar because he claimed in the Quran he strengthened them and made their message victorious.Please use your head. You can't possibly be this dense.
Neverrepayevilwithevil said..."Well! What can I say? This is an overall good message but do we really need the quran to validate the bible? I dont think so."The whole point of this video is not seeking validation from the Quran.... but to prove that Muslims can't argue the bible is corrupted based on the Quran.Who ever said that we wanted any approval from the Quran in the first place?
Dear brothers,That’s right we don’t need the approval of Qur’an. We are quoting the qur’an because they are believing on it and their own book is saying believe on the previous books.Like this week I was talking with a Muslim, while we were having tea. He said why are you telling me from the qur’an, you are not Muslim. I said to him that’s right i am not Muslim the reason i am quoting from qur’an because you believe on it and your book and your prophet is saying that.We quote their book and Mr Mo because we are living in Muslim country and to win the argument and keep their mouth shut.Peace.
Did you even read my article? Ofc not
The article is talking about the two groups of beliefs concerning the type of mission Jesus (as) was sent to do and that those are the two groups that fought each other.The group that won were the monothiests. Years pass by, and other deceivers like Paul and twist the message.There still remains Christians even today that believe that Jesus was only a Prophet.God reveals the Quran being a Testament and now we have over a billion people believing that Jesus was only a servant of God and this message is being accepted more and more as we see Islam is the second largest religion in the world and soon to be #1. Thus the true followers of Hesus are the victors in the end all the way to the Day of Judgment.
@Kim - "Islam is the second largest religion in the world"Exactly. SECOND. Allah is extremely slow in fulfilling his promise, wouldn't you say? Throughout Islam's existence, all Muslims are forced to do regarding this overdue promise is claim an empty victory as you are doing now. Has Allah been kind enough to give you an idea when this supposed victory will come to pass? Or does that fall under the meaningless Allah-knows-best category? God's promise of salvation through Jesus Christ has already been fulfilled. We have been enjoying the LORD'S grace long before Allah allegedly made this promise of making Isa's followers uppermost. You are still waiting. It's rather a sad state of affairs when your god cannot be bothered to follow up with his promises. It is sadder still if this victory is only a victory by sheer numbers. How superficial your religion and god are.
Kim,Albeit your argument for that verse is extremely eisegetic of the text (i.e. you reading into your text, instead of the text speaking for itself), you again have only proven that Allah failed to keep his promise/word.You said, "There still remains Christians even today that believe that Jesus was only a Prophet."But they aren't superior to the 'false' Christians (i.e. those who believe Jesus was God and the Son of God) and they were never made superior over the 'false' Christians any time in history... If you want to know which Christian 'group' is most superior to all others, I would have to say the Catholics and also the Charismatic movement are the most superior...And Islam will never be the #1 faith in the world. It has never been before Muhammad and ever since.It will only when all true followers of Christ have been taken from this world (just to give you a handicap).Even now, you admit it is the SECOND, and I don't recall the Day of Resurrection coming to pass any time before.So, either Allah failed to keep his promise to Jesus... or he did, but not what you thought he meant.
Kim said (way, WAY down the list of comments) "Years pass by, and other deceivers like Paul and twist the message." Prove it. Chapter and verse and supporting ahadith please.
This is for KimKim: "The article is talking about the two groups of beliefs concerning the type of mission Jesus (as) was sent to do and that those are the two groups that fought each other.The group that won were the monothiests.Years pass by, and other deceivers like Paul and twist the message."I'm glad you at least formulated something in your own words rather than letting others do all your talking for you. I read the article. The argument it is making is nonsense, logically, historically and according to your own Quran.Your Quran does not leave the position you are trying to claim as option to you. It refutes the article you are pinning your hopes on. Here's how:Verse 61:14 provides some information that is supposedly about historical events, and quotes words that supposedly were spoken in the past-"O ye who believe! Be ye helpers of Allah. As said Jesus the son of Mary to the Disciples, "Who will be my helpers to (the work of) Allah." Said the disciples, "We are Allah's helpers!" then a portion of the Children of Israel believed, and a portion disbelieved. But We gave power to those who believed, against their enemies, and they became the ones that prevailed."According to the Quran Jesus and the Disciples spoke these words in the 1st century: "Who will be my helpers to (the work of) Allah." Said the disciples, "We are Allah's helpers!". Now pay attention here Kim because that combined with the words at the end of the verse refute what you are trying to claim. According to the Quran Allah tells Muhammad and the Muslims the following sometime prior to 632 A.D.: "But We gave power to those who believed, against their enemies, and they became the ones that prevailed."Notice Allah says he "gave power" to the believers who "became the ones that prevailed"...all past tense. The giving of power, and the prevailing all happened prior to the day these words became part of the Quran. This means the Quran clearly says Allah gave power to the true followers of Jesus so that they prevailed prior to 632 A.D. What message about Jesus does all of history attest to being the dominant message during that time? Jesus is God the Son who died on the cross and resurrected and lives forevermore reigning in heaven on the Throne with the Father!If you claim otherwise, show me historical proof of an Islamic Jesus and his followers whose message prevailed prior to 632 A.D. We all know that no such group has ever existed!I doubt that I will get any honest reflection or critical analysis from you of your own beliefs, nor any evidence that you are actually paying attention to what others are saying (for example the excellent evidence presented by simple_truth showing that the Quran and Hadith attest the Torah available in Mohammad's time is the same one given by Allah). Be that as it may, you claim to believe in the Quran so you must stop making claims that contradict your Quran.
@The Berean Serach, Wow, you whip Kim!!
Curly,Only by the grace of the Lord Jesus, and my only motivation to have continued responding is the hope that Kim (or another onlooker trapped in falsehood) might be paying attention and see the inconsistency of Islam. Kim seems to already have chosen to be openly hostile to the Gospel and heaping unto herself teachers that will feed her what she already wants to hear. Truly sad.
The Berean Search, True, it is sad.
TO WHOMSOEVER IT MAY CONCERNMy Bible has prophesied over u deceivers who do not agree with the deity of JESUS well 500 years before ISLAM originated. This proves that HOLY BIBLE is the true WORD OF GOD!Here it goes!2 John 1:7,9"For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess JESUS CHRIST (Son of God) as coming in flesh. This is a deceiver and an anti christ. Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have GOD. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son."This is the same John who wrote one of the gospels, mentions that WORD OF GOD becoming flesh and that was fulfilled in JESUS CHRIST and He is the Son of GOD and HE is GOD.An alarm to Christians 500 years well before the Qur'an could come, it prophesied that anything apart from the Bible is a doctrine of Devil and from the evil one:2 Corinthians 11:3,4"...as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds will be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ. For if he who comes preaches another Jesus (Jesus mentioned in the Qur'an//for your understanding//), or if you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel (that contradicts the first four gospels of BIBLE) which you have not accepted-you may be well put up with it!"Also the whole chapter of 2Peter 2, warns us about the false teachings and doctrines! BEWARE!Wanna tell one more thing about the revelation Mohammed got as Qur'an2 Corinthians 11:14,15"And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light (disguise as holy angels). Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works."Hold on a second! Who is this Angel of Light?Angel of Light is the one who will deceive people as if he is doing good and lead them to the wrong way.May Jesus save you!
None of this back and forth is really getting anyone anywhere. Believe in your religion and leave other people alone. Find something more constructive to do with your time like worshipping your God and helping the poor instead of fighting about who's right. We'll all know when we're dead.
i hand out the bible to muslims, this is what i stick inside the front page:Dear Muslim friend, if you are in doubt, as Mohammed once was, see Surah 10:94 of the Quran - and ask us for the Book; we will give it to you freely! In any language!Surah 10:94فَإِن كُنتَ فِي شَكٍّ مِّمَّا أَنزَلْنَا إِلَيْكَ فَاسْأَلِ الَّذِينَ يَقْرَءُونَ الْكِتَابَ مِنقَبْلِكَ ۚ لَقَدْ جَاءَكَ الْحَقُّ مِن رَّبِّكَ فَلَا تَكُونَنَّ مِنَ الْمُمْتَرِينَAllah to Mohammed:“And if thou (Muhammad) art in doubt concerning that which We reveal unto thee, then question those who read the Scripture [Bible] (that was) before thee. Verily the Truth from thy Lord hath come unto thee. So be not thou of the waverers.”why should the Bible be read?Surah 5:47“Let the People of the Gospel judge by that which Allah hath revealed therein. Whoso judgeth not by that which Allah hath revealed: such are evil-livers.”Surah 5:68“Say O People of the Scripture [Jews and Christians]! Ye have naught (of guidance) till ye observe the Torah and the Gospel[The Old and New Testament] and that which was revealed unto you from your Lord.”No, the Bible has not been corrupted; for the Bible of the 1st Century after Christ was the same Bible that Mohammed had access to 600 years later and is the same we have today! Undisputed Archeological and Scientific Proof Exists For This Fact!or would you argue Surah 18:27?“And recite what has been revealed to you of the Book [Bible] of your Lord, there is none who can alter His words; and you shall not find any refuge besides Him.”And in the end we are all commanded to obey Christ by both the Quran and the Bible!Surah 3:50“And I [JESUS CHRIST] come confirming that which was before me [JESUS CHRIST] of the Torah [Old Testament of the Bible], and to make lawful some of that which was forbidden unto you [like eating certain food or other traditions of the Torah].I [JESUS CHRIST] come unto you with a sign from your Lord, so keep your duty to Allah and obey me [JESUS CHRIST].”AndJohn 14:23 “Jesus answered, If a person [really] loves Me, he will keep My word [obey My teaching]; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home (abode, special dwelling place) with him.”Assalamu Alaykum Wa Rahmatullaahi wa barakato
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