Wednesday, November 9, 2011

Qur'an Error: Does the Sun Set in a Muddy Spring? (Surah 18:86)

According to the Qur'an (18:86), a man named Dhul-Qarnain reached the place where the sun sets. When he got there, he found the sun going down into a muddy pool. Muslim apologists commonly reinterpret the passage, but only because they're ignoring Muhammad's commentary.



Since Muslims in the West claim that science confirms the Qur'an, we should work diligently to explain to them what the Qur'an says, and how Muhammad obviously interpreted it. The following two quotations, when used together, are devastating and unanswerable:

Qur’an 18:83-86—And they ask you about Dhul-Qarnain. Say: “I shall recite to you something of his story.” Verily, We established him in the earth, and We gave him the means of everything. So he followed a way. Until, when he reached the setting place of the sun, he found it setting in a spring of black muddy (or hot) water. And he found near it a people.

Sunan Abu Dawud 3991—Abu Dharr said: I was sitting behind the Apostle of Allah who was riding a donkey while the sun was setting. He asked: Do you know where this sets? I replied: Allah and his Apostle know best. He said: It sets in a spring of warm water.

For more on Muhammad, the Qur'an, and the setting of the sun, here are some articles:

INTRODUCTIONS:
Sam Shamoun, "Muhammad and the Sun's Setting Place"
Cornelius, "The Sun in the Muddy Pool and the Prophethood of Muhammad"

LONGER WORKS:
Sam Shamoun and Jochen Katz, "Islam and the Setting of the Sun"
Martin Taverille, "Dhu’l Qarnayn and the Sun Controversy in the Qur’an: New Evidence"

In case you missed the first entry in this series:

179 comments:

Fisher said...

If we accept the view that Alexander the Great is Dhul Qarnayn, you come up with two more problems:

1. Alexander was a pagan, not a believing monotheist.

2. He could not have reached the place where the sun sets because we know from secular history that he expanded his empire eastward, not westward.

Fisher said...

By the way, I could argue that there is a fourth option: Salvage the reinterpretation by rejecting the hadith from Abu Dawud as spurious. But then the burden of proof is on the Muslim to show why he thinks that hadith is unreliable, and provide some kind of positive confirmation of the reinterpretation from some other hadith or tafsir source.

Mad Dog Gazza said...

Brilliant, as usual.

D335 said...

YO DAVID:

Howbout a video idea ^^

Yusuf Ali on Quran 14:4
We sent not a messenger except (to teach) in the language of his (own) people, in order to make (things) clear to them. Now Allah leaves straying those whom He pleases and guides whom He pleases: and He is Exalted in power, full of Wisdom.

in which means every language, every culture, every nation got their own Islamic prophets!

IN EXAMPLE:

Islamic messenger of Japan:

Prophet Mitsubishi married 9 yrs old Maria Osawa, fathered little suzuki and big brother honda. Too bad, Suzuki committed harakiri by suicide bombing and maria became a geisha.
You can look at Japanese Quran of Engine specification and handling manual. It is originally in Japanese and must be read in Kanji!

Oh yeah, what's Allah name in Japan? SUDHOKU!!!
---------------------------------
Islamic Messenger of Jamaica:

Prophet Marley first name Bob loves to wear women' clothes while getting inspiration in the cave! He doesn't approve gay, yet wore an eyeliner, condemns pork and believe semen came from the back bone!
Allah's name in Jamaica is Al-Al-Al-Long... (A La La Long de long long long)

Here's a video clip of Allah by the inner circle:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNnJD_Tyl7Y
----------------------------------
Islamic Messenger of Swedeen.

Prophet ABBA, with 4 cannonical hadiths from Anni-Frid "Frida" Lyngstad, Björn Ulvaeus, Benny Andersson and Agnetha Fältskog.

The prophet led an army of dancinq queens through europe and the rest of the Disco world; Conquering each land, forcing them until they establish regular record playing 5 times a day, pay for the songs and CDs willingly while they are humbled.

Allah's name in Sweeden would be:Beowulf!
----------------------------------

D335 ^^

Anonymous said...

David do not forget the glorious Quran teaches the earth is stationary and the Sun revolves around it...here a Muslim provides 17 proofs for this plus if you read in the comments below his post you see various fatwa's declaring this great "truth"

http://abuaaliyah.multiply.com/journal/item/120/The_Earth_doesnt_Revolve_around_the_Sun-_17_verses_to_prove_it.

TAREK said...

Dear Dr. David,
"Oh boy bravo" sorry Doc. for my language

I don't have any word to explain my gratitude regarding the video about the sun set. I am very happy because I had asked the following question on this blog concerning this issue and i put a bet on it that time:

"Can anyone put a fridge in the bottle"?

The answer I got from Ms. Kim was "NO". So I would like to hear from her. Please Ms. Kim make up you mind and come to CHRIST JESUS. We love you.
As you said in the video, the sun is 1.3 million bigger than the earth and Ms. Kim knows this very well.
Dr. David I'd be glad to see the same type of video with the title "Allah Prays"
I think this is the best way to let muslims see the mistakes of their book and with the Power of the HOLY SPIRIT they will reject it Chapter 4 Verse 82. I watched it on ABN but it is nice when you bring it up as a single topic

Well done Dr. David. I wish I had a lot of money in order to sponsore this work as well as ABN Jihadwatch ...etc on the large scale.

BTW Dr. when Sam and you going to have a show again at ABN?

MAY YAHWEH BLESS US AND COVER US THE PRECIOUS BLOOD OF JESUS. AMEN

Anonymous said...

Check my post on the rotation of the Sun in the Quran, which teaches the earth is fixed and the Sun and moon rotate around it, in fact some of the Muslim clerics go so far as to accuse anyone who thinks the earth moves of being "ignorant". Yes Yes the glorious Quran full of amazing wonders!!!

http://www.callingmuslims.com/2011/11/another-quranic-blunder-quran-teaches.html

Osama Abdallah said...

Brother David Wood,

If the sun sets in a body of water, then it would have to rise back FROM THAT place
and set into another body of water, which the Glorious Quran never makes any mention of, and then rise from that body of water and set into the first body of water, and then rise back from that body of water and set into the other body of water, and so on....

There is onething that I am very appreciative to you and Sam Shamoun and the others about, and that is you help me, and the Muslims like me, to further expose the false hadiths that exist in our database/library of Hadiths, which is estimated around 2 million hadiths, I was told.

To the reader, there are 3 SCIENTIFIC MIRACLES in the Noble Verses that Mr. David Wood had brought up. Please visit: www.answering-christianity.com/sunrise_sunset.htm for more details. The article even has my debate with David Wood, which David never posted on his website about the Scientific Miracles in the Glorious Quran.

I want to invite you David, and Sam and the Christians who are reading this to study Islam more objectively, and not just judge it based on "hadiths", as if they are cut and dry history. They are not reliable history. Some of them are True, and some are false. You treat all of them as True. You also should know that Arabic is a poetical language, and sometimes you would have terms that are metaphoric and not literal.

Thanks!

Osama Abdallah
www.answering-christianity.com/sunrise_sunset.htm

TAREK said...

Dear Dr. David,

I think, Chapter 9 of the qu'ran is the last to be "revealed". So, why do we find abrogation in it? Please Dr. correct me if I'm wrong.

In chapter 9 verses 97, 99 & 101 What is going on, which is which?

Can any muslim explain what is going on in the desert please? And thank you in advance

MAY YAHWEH BLESS US ALL IN THE HOLY NAME OF OUR LORD JESUS AMEN.

cheryl_maree said...

Thanks David!!! Please give us more of these so called scientific miracles in the Quran, the Deen Show seems to think there are so many!

cheryl_maree said...

Why doesn't the muslim see this? Why do they continue trying to explain them away? Of course they say the Hadith you quoted isn't a trustworthy Hadith.

John 8:24 said...

Hey Osama,

When your argument was exposed on the "Who Killed Muhammad" post you did a disappearing act and you now reappear here? So it looks like you accept your defeat and acknowledge that Muhammad is a false prophet. So when you accept that your prophet is a false prophet what is the point in defending this Quran verse?

My Two Sense said...

Osama - "You also should know that Arabic is a poetical language, and sometimes you would have terms that are metaphoric and not literal."

You should know that English is a grammatical language. I think what you mean here is "Arabic is a poetic language", not "Arabic is a poetical language". I know what you meant though... at least literally (though maybe not metaphorically).

I have been frequently told that "The Koran only works in Arabic" and yet it is still translated into other languages. Certainly such an important book would have to go through some sort of extensive and intensive scrutiny before it was allowed into the hands of foreign speakers so that it "literally" said what it was supposed to mean without ambiguity (whether its content was literal or metaphorical... or ambiguous) But I digress...

It was my understanding that the Koran and the Hadith, are not "interpretative". David says that multiple times. Not so with the Hadith then?

So in this database of 2 million Hadith (which I am assuming is available on a website somewhere or public domain somewhere)? is it searchable by "truth" and "untruth"? Who "decides" whether it is "true" or "untrue"? Are you talking about a database on your website specifically or a website in the public domain?

"I want to invite you David, and Sam and the Christians who are reading this to study Islam more objectively, and not just judge it based on "Hadiths"..."

Leaving out the Agnostics and the Atheists again, are we? Shame on you. But I guess we aren't "People of the Book" after all.

"Study more objectively"... You mean read the Koran and Hadith and take it literally and not interpretively? I believe we are engaging in that activity already without your express invitation. Thanks though.

TAREK said...

Mr Osama, Please be honest with yourself and others (muslims) are you telling us that those who decided that the "sahih" True" are wrong and that you are right? Are you messenger send to come with the new interpretation? According to you if I curse Allah in my language He will not understand, unless I speak in arabic? Do you have a mirror in you house? Please try take some few minutes to look at yourself, then ask yourself the following question: Am I normal?
I spoke to you sometimes back about Allah praying you told me that it was wrong. Now let tell you that I have the clear information and it is true that Allah prays in the quran. Please Mr. Osama stop telling us lies. I visited your website it is full of lies and verses of the HOLY BIBLE taken out of context to suit you. Please be honest with yourself and others. Since you want to reject the explanition of your own "prophet muhammad", your muslims brothers may harm you take care please we love you.

MAY YAHWEH BLESS US ALL IN JESUS' NAME AMEN

Kim said...

I choose the Good Muslim option. If there seems to be a controversy in the Hadith, I'm not going to just leave Islam based on one little thing we misunderstand at the moment.

If we're going to use the Hadith to try and disprove Islam, then you'll find Hadith where Islam is clearly the 100% religion of God. There may be some things we don't perfectly understand 100% yet.

Until then, more research has to be done on this topic before we reach a conclusion!!!

Peter said...

I understand why many muslims are not able to understand many of the arguments against the Quran. A lot af the arguments against the Quran are based on a mode of thought that are simply alien to the islamic way of thinking. I understand that.

But I simply cannot understand why muslims cannot see the problem with Mary and Miriam in the Quran. It is so obvious that Muhammad thought that Mary and Miriam, the sister of Moses, are one and the same person, which they are definitely not. I completely understand why Muhammad would make this mistake, and it is a very human thing to do. But it shows beyond any reasonable doubt that the Quran is not the word of God. It is the word of Muhammad, a man who (in good and evil) was extraordinaire. Extraordinaire but human.

andy bell said...

Oh, no. There's a fourth option my friend. Kill David Wood.

You think the Mad Arab (pbuh) and his beastly followers would take the time to sit down and explain this scriptural foolishness in a calm and rational way?

Puh-leeze. The sword could win this argument in two seconds.

Oh, the rationalizer did a great video on how the quran believes that the earth is flat:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_FaNg_nxqns

Martin said...

Osama, your sunset_sunrise webpage you mention is refered to several times in the last link David provided in his post (quranspotlight) and thoroughly refuted therein

WhatsUpDoc said...

HA ha @D335 you are killing me. LOL

WhatsUpDoc said...

David you missed that Hadiths by Bukhari:

After the sun sets it goes under the throne of god, prostrates and ask permission to rise again.

Another one: at the last hour the sun will set his prostration will not be accepted by god and he will be order to go back on the last day the sun will rise from the west.

Another one according to Muhammad in another Hadith:

Every morning Allah decends to lower haven" is there anyone seeking forgiveness".

If Mohammad is correct than Allah can never leave once he descends to lower haven, early morning is a 24/7 event.

I am going to pretend that I am Zakir Naik. Here is my response:

At the time of revelation sun used to set in muddy water but god changed his plan after the death of Mohammad.

Another classical video by David. Bravo!!!!!!!

WhatsUpDoc said...

Some of the Muslims now say it Dhul Karnan is not Alexander the great by Cyrus the Great.

The evidence that Alexander the great was gay is becoming stronger therefore they are moving away from him LOL

Anonymous said...

@ Kim @ Usama @ anymuslim

Does the earth rotate around the Sun or does the Sun rotate around the Earth?

Anonymous said...

@ Kim The doors of ijtihad are closed, there is nothing for you to try to understand..you either agree with the understanding of the Salaf regrading these narrations or you don't, your Salaf were literalistic, they literally understood that the sun descended into a literal pool of mud, they literally believed the earth was stationary and the moon and sun revolved around it, they literally believed the sun went under the earth made sujood to Allah and asked permission to raise up in the east

It one thing to lie to others, its a whole other animal to lie to yourself.

andy bell said...

CL Edwards? I'm not sure if you are the same guy I saw on the ABN shows. But if you are........You rock bra!

I've seen every episode (the english ones of course). Can't get enough.

Come on guys. I want more Jesus or Muhammad. David, Sam, and Pastor Joeeeeeeee.

Samatar Mohamed said...

@CL Edwards

The answer to your question is neither. Because the earth revolves around the sun not "rotates" around the sun.

@David wood

What you do not understand David wood is that muslims generally agree that there are hadiths that are fallible unlike the Holy Quran which, the Allah (swt) promised to protect from corruption. However, if you show muslims a hadith that for example has scientific inaccuracies, then all you are doing is showing us the hadiths that were not actually uttered by Muhammad (pbuh). Lastly, remember that when you attempt to find errors in the Quran, that the quran is in a poetic language, meaning that not everything the quran says is to be taken for its literal meaning. I'm sure you must understand this because jesus (pbuh) spoke in parables in your bible as well. If you take everything literally, then you can disprove anything, but to truly disprove something, i recommend you use a sound method that takes certain things into account.

Baron Eddie said...

@ Osama Abdallah

Do you know Arabic language?

Anonymous said...

@ Samatar why do you believe that?

Anonymous said...

@ Andy Bell yea I have been on JorM, I agree it would be nice to do some new shows, but that's ABN's call.

Search 4 Truth said...

Hey guess what. Muslims get to pick and choose what to take literally and what to take figuratively! After all Allah has made the Quran so clear.

11:1 Alif, Lam, Ra. [This is] a Book whose verses are perfected and then presented in detail from [one who is] Wise and Acquainted.

6:114 [Say], "Then is it other than Allah I should seek as judge while it is He who has revealed to you the Book explained in detail?" And those to whom We [previously] gave the Scripture know that it is sent down from your Lord in truth, so never be among the doubters.


the excuses and logical fallacies never end. How convoluted and delusional people can be is absolutely fascinating!

Iconodule said...

Alexander the great, the guy who kept a copy of the illiad under his pillow. Do muslims seriously consider this guy (great conquerer though he may be) someone worthy of religious veneration?

Zack_Tiang said...

I am not completely surprised how Muslims will continue to deny the plain truth of this part of the Quran.
How glad and happy are they to trumpet that the Quran is infallible.

It is obvious that the Quran meant what it said regarding Dhul-Qarnain finding the sun setting in a muddy spring.
Since this is obviously false, then it is impossible for the Quran to be considered infallible.
And thus, Quran must, at the very least, be considered not free of errors.

Of course, the implication is too big to only affect a part(s) of Islam.

Fernando said...

Just for the record: WhatsUpDoc is, as a matter off fact, Kim...

Samatar Mohamed said...

@search for truth

"Hey guess what. Muslims get to pick and choose what to take literally and what to take figuratively! After all Allah has made the Quran so clear. "

Again my friend, you have to be consistent yourself. I already posted some time earlier that the Old testament said the God is not the author of confusion, yet the father decides not to inform the jews he constantly punishes for not obeying him that there are actually two other persons beside him that make a triune God. Not to mention that jesus (pbuh) always talks in parables throughout the old testament, which the people had a hard time understanding. Now in answer to your question, i have asked many arabs, and they have all told me that it was not to be taken literally as setting in a muddy spring. They tell me that it is pretty obvious that it is not to be taken literally because of the term wajada that is used meaning that it appeared to Dhul qharnain as if it was setting that way. That is the problem with trying to translate the amazing language of the quran my friend.

@CL Edwards

get to your point.

search 4 truth said...

@ Samatar.

Yeah and having sex with captives while one or both of you is married is not adultery either! I understand. And by wonderful language , in Islamic definition does wonderful translate to ambiguous, vague, and incomprehensible?

Ok now for consistency.

par·a·ble   [par-uh-buhl] Show IPA
noun
1.
a short allegorical story designed to illustrate or teach some truth, religious principle, or moral lesson.
2.
a statement or comment that conveys a meaning indirectly by the use of comparison, analogy, or the like.

Ok what is the meaning or principle behind describing the sun setting n a pool of murky water?

So you spoke to some Arabic speaking people who gave their uninformed subjective opinion without consulting YOUR prophets sunna and scholars? LOL! Excellent research you have done. Let's go to Ibn Abbas the companion and first cousin of your false Prophet.And read what he Mohamed himself said. And then you can begin your logical fallacies and denial of fact and your greatest scholars!


* تفسير Tanwîr al-Miqbâs min Tafsîr Ibn ‘Abbâs
{ حَتَّىٰ إِذَا بَلَغَ مَغْرِبَ ٱلشَّمْسِ وَجَدَهَا تَغْرُبُ فِي عَيْنٍ حَمِئَةٍ وَوَجَدَ عِندَهَا قَوْماً قُلْنَا يٰذَا ٱلْقَرْنَيْنِ إِمَّآ أَن تُعَذِّبَ وَإِمَّآ أَن تَتَّخِذَ فِيهِمْ حُسْناً }

(Till, when he reached the setting place of the sun) where the sun sets, (he found it setting in a muddy spring) a blackened, muddy and stinking spring; it is also said that this means: a hot spring, (and found a people thereabout) these people were disbelievers: (We said: O Dhu'l-Qarnayn!) We inspired him (Either punish) either kill them until they accept to believe that there is no deity except Allah (or show them kindness) or you pardon them and let them be.



Abu Dawud’s report:

4002. It was narrated that Abu Dharr said: “I was riding behind the Messenger of Allah while he was on a donkey, and the sun was setting. He said: ‘Do you know where this (sun) sets?’ I said: ‘Allah and his Messenger know best.’ He said: ‘IT SETS IN A SPRING OF WATER (fa innaha taghrubu fi ‘ainin hamiyah).’”

Now are your Arabic speaking friends greater scholars that them? I mean you have got to be kidding me. How willfully ignorant can one individual be?

Please tell me the meaning behind telling a parable about the sun setting in a muddy pond and why did Mohamed lie to this man? the mind is a terrible thing to waste, on Islam!

Baron Eddie said...

@ Osama Abdallah

I did not hear from you!

This is very important ...
And something new ...

All old Islamic school (Basra, Madina, Kufa) explain it as the sun going into a hot water/muddy well.

It is not like a claim that you are standing in front an ocean!

In the Surah it says "تَغْرُبُ فِي عَيْنٍ حَمِئَةٍ وَوَجَدَ عِنْدَهَا قَوْمًا" It is a well

And by that place "so it a location an found people near that place ...

-------------------
In verse 84 "إِنَّا مَكَّنَّا لَهُ فِي الْأَرْضِ وَآتَيْنَاهُ مِن كُلِّ شَيْءٍ سَبَبًا"

Ibn Kathir explains "that Dhul-Qarnain journey is under the guidance of Allah "متبعا فيها العلم (فاتبع سببا.

so these verses is not only seeing the sun visually but it is under Allah's guidance

--------------------

Notice in the Quran it says "Wajada"/found and not "Raaha"/saw

in the Arabic dictionary part 2 page 1013 it defines Wajada = to be Aware of and understand

So he found the sun going into the muddy well! It is a place where the sun went into

=====================
Here is the new thing

Mohammed in Surah 18:86 copied this idea from Pre-Islamic Poetry "
الشعر الجاهلي" !!!

This belongs to a poet by the name أمية بن أبي الصلت Ameya Bin Abi Alsalat

Download his book here

http://www.mediafire.com/?zabkuankf9bpqtk

look in page 36 and I underlined it where it says the same thing that Dhul-Qarnain found where the sun goes in the muddy well!

My Two Sense said...

Kim - "Until then, more research has to be done on this topic before we reach a conclusion!!!"

By "more research" I am assuming that you mean anyone else except the people on this blog or Dr. David Wood...

and by "we" you mean you. Scratch that. By "we" you mean the plural of you and everyone who "agrees" with you.

So is the Koran and Hadith to be taken literally or metaphorically? Do you admit that there is some ambiguity, not just in a translation, but in the text itself? It seems like you do when you say:

"There may be some things we don't perfectly understand 100% yet."

Welcome to the world of "revealed" religions.

Zack_Tiang said...

Samatar,

You said, "because of the term wajada that is used meaning that it appeared to Dhul qharnain as if it was setting that way."

If you would actually study the passage in question again Quran 18:86, you'd notice that wajada appears TWICE in that verse...

Transliteration of 18:86:
"Hatta itha balagha maghriba alshshamsi wajadaha taghrubu fee AAaynin hamiatin wawajada AAindaha qawman qulna ya tha alqarnayni imma an tuAAaththiba waimma an tattakhitha feehim husnan "

And practically all English translations agree wajada is to be translated as 'found', not 'appear'.

http://www.searchtruth.com/chapter_display_all.php?chapter=18&from_verse=86&to_verse=86&mac=&translation_setting=1&show_transliteration=1&show_yusufali=1&show_shakir=1&show_pickthal=1&show_mkhan=1&show_melayu=1
(and I re-affirm using Google Translate, by isolating both the Arabic words "wajada" in the sentence)

So... if we are to be consistent... does that mean Dhul-Qarnain also *metaphorically* found a group of people near this bed of water?
Or that a group of people 'appeared' to be there?

And then Allah told Dhul-Qarnain to either punish or treat these people who 'appeared' to be there?

Samatar Mohamed said...

@search for truth

"Ok what is the meaning or principle behind describing the sun setting n a pool of murky water?"

Not every statement the quran makes has to have a meaning or principle behind it my friend (take a look at your bible for instance). The quran is narrating a story through the eyes of Dhul Qharnain. The quran is not actually saying that the Sun set in a hot spring, but that it was the way Dhul Qharnain saw it. I don't know how much times i am going to have to repeat this to you before you get it. Next, you try to pin me by saying that it was how ibn saad understood it. You understand that there is a hadith where the prophet Muhammad (pbuh) says that his ummah cannot be wrong when they have reached a consensus on an issue. This hadith is showing that the ummah can make mistakes in areas of dispute.So if that is how he viewed it, then he has been proven wrong. But my point is that muslims in general say that the Quran is not meaning it literally. Next, you bring up that hadith but i already said in my earlier posts that we believe that there are hadiths that are fallible because of the error, or corruptions of human mind, but that the quran cannot be fallible because it is the word of god almighty. Lastly, you said

" the mind is a terrible thing to waste, on Islam!"

Yet you seem to be doing just that i guess. I encourage you and david wood, sam shamoun and others to continue studying and critisizing the Quran and Islam, i believe that with the will of Allah (swt), and studying with an open mind, that you will eventually discover the fruit and truth of Islam.

Baron Eddie said...

@ Samatar Mohamed

I guess you did not read my comment!

Dhul Qharnain story is stolen from
Pre-Islamic Poetry ... Surprise

I gave a link to the book that shows the poet who said it ...

You said "Not every statement the quran makes has to have a meaning or principle behind it my friend "

It sure does because that is from Allah and Allah knows best!

You say statament like this in the Middle East you could get killed my friend ...

Allah gave you the straight path ... do you remember?

هذا القرآن هو حبل الله المتين وهو النور المبين وهو الذكر الحكيم والصراط المستقيم ...

Nakdimon said...

Osama, can you answer one simple question. You talk about “false hadiths”. What are the criteria you utilize to distinguish between false hadiths and true hadiths? Does it have anything to do with “I like this so it’s true” and “this is blatantly wrong so it must be false”? If not, what are the consistent criteria?

Thanks,
Nakdimon

Zack_Tiang said...

Samatar said, "Not every statement the quran makes has to have a meaning or principle behind it my friend"

Samatar also said, "but that the quran cannot be fallible because it is the word of god almighty."

So, the Quran is the word (singular?) of Allah... but not every statement Allah makes need to have a meaning?

Very interesting thought, Samatar. Really is. You should think about it more.

-------

Samatar said, "But my point is that muslims in general say that the Quran is not meaning it literally."

So then, Dhul-Qarnain didn't literally found a group of people near this muddy spring..
and Allah didn't literally told him to either punish them or treat them?

Very interesting thought, again.

Search 4 Truth said...

@ Samater.

Every single thing you said is the exact opposite of reality.

I am not wasting my mind, I am using it in an attempt to reveal how convoluted Islam, and your logical fallacies are.

You said it was a parable. There has to be a purpose to say that they Wajada the sun, which translates to found the sun. What is the parable or meaning? Is Allah trying to deceive people? What is the parable? Why would he say it?

He did not have to be so descriptive. If i say i walked to the end of my street and I found my neighbors sitting on their front porch. We3 can conclude that I walked down the street and I saw my neighbors sitting on their porch.

Now if I say I walked to the end of the earth and I found the sun setting in a dirty pool of water. What else could it mean other than what I said? If it is not literal than what is the parable? And all of the hadith conclude he was being literal. You are in total denial or reality.

Quote "
Not every statement the quran makes has to have a meaning or principle behind it my friend (take a look at your bible for instance)."

Substantiate your claim. Why would Allah mention this clear scientific and grammatical error? What is the purpose? And all of your hadith point to the fact that it is literal. I havent encountered any hadith that take it as figurative. I find Islam to be so unreliable and illogical you have to throw logic and reason and integrity out the window to be a muslim. Redefining words, actions, and morality. It is insane. I feel bad for you.

Nakdimon said...

Samatar,

When Jesus speaks in parables it is obvious that he speaks in parables, because he makes hypotheticals, uses contemporary figures of speech etc to communicate to his audience. Also, we sometimes later have him explaining the meaning of those parables. Never do we have anything of the sort in the Quran. PLUS we have ahadith that are deemed “authentic” that prove that the interpretation of those verses in the Quran are indeed literal and not metaphorical.

But if what you are saying about ahadith such as the one on murky water is true then many questions should be answered:

1. What is your criterion for “authenticity” when it comes to ahadith?
2. Why should we, if we see a hadith that is part of your tradition, disregard an explanation of the Quran that, by all Islamic criteria, (assuming that those criteria are valid to begin with) seems to really come from Muhammad?
3. Why should we deem ahadith with “missing links” (people who are not mentioned in a chain) in the chain of transmitters unauthentic just because a person isn’t mentioned? For example: Would it follow that 7 generations from now if a person recounts 9/11 and forgets to mention a 4th generation transmitter that either the testimony is invalid or that the event never happened?
4. Why should we deem this verse about the setting sun as metaphorical and what is that metaphorical meaning of “setting in murky water”?
5. Why is Mary, the mother of Jesus, being called “sister of Harun” in the Quran, when she is many generations removed from Aharon?
6. Why does Muhammad claim in yet another authentic hadith that the custom of the day in Mary’s culture was that people would call others the brother of a pious person generations removed, while we see a completely different custom in the days of Mary, namely, that if people were generations removed, they would be called SON or DAUGHTER of the ancestor, rather than “sister” of “brother”?
7. If it was a custom to call people the sister of a pious person, why on earth does the Quran not call Mary the sister of Amram as well, rather than a daughter?
8. In light of the pervious questions, there is one other known Miryam in ancient literature that is coincidentally the actual the daughter of Amram as well as the sister of Aharon at the same time! Why do you think is it an illogical conclusion to think that the author of the Quran simply confused Miryam, the mother of Jesus, with Miryam, the actual daughter of Amram AND at the same time the actual sister of Moses?


Thanks!

Nakdimon

Kim said...

I love challenges like this. They're fun to investigate and in the end we understand the truth.

In the meantime...everyone just chill down and do your resarch.

Kim said...

Imam Al-Baidawi notes,

He probably reached shore of the ocean and saw it like that because there was but water at the furthest of his sight that's why He says "he found it set" and does not say "it sets". (Al-Baidawi, Anwar-ut-Tanzil wa Asrar-ut-Taw'il, Volume 3, page 394. Published by Dar-ul-Ashraf, Cairo, Egypt)



Imam Al-Qurtubi states,



Al-Qaffal said: It is not meant by reaching the rising or setting of the sun that he reached its body and touched it because it runs in the sky around the earth without touching it and it is too great to enter any spring on earth. It is so much larger than earth. But it is meant that he reached the end of populated land east and west, so he found it - according to his vision - setting in a spring of a murky water like we watch it in smooth land as if it enters inside the land. That is why He said, "he found it rising on a people for whom we had provided no covering protection against the sun." (Holy Qur'ân 18:90) and did not mean that it touches or adheres to them; but they are the first to rise on.

Al-Qutabiy said: Probably this spring is a part of the sea and the sun sets behind, with or at it, so the proposition takes the place of an adjective and Allah knows best. (Al-Qurtubi, Al-Game' le Ahkam-el-Qur'an, Volume 16, page 47. Published by Dar-ul-Hadith, Cairo, Egypt. ISBN 977-5227-44-5)

Imam Fakhr-ud-Deen Ar-Razi states,



When Zul-Qarnain reached the furthest west and no populated land was left, he found the sun as if it sets in a dark spring, but it is not in reality. The same when sea traveler sees the sun as if it sets in the sea if he cannot see the shore while in reality it sets behind the sea. (Ar-Razi, At-Tafsir-ul-Kabir, Volume 21, page 166)



Imam Ibn Kathir states,



"Until, when he reached the setting of the sun" means he followed a certain way till he reached the furthest land he could go from the west. As for reaching the setting of the sun in the sky, it is impossible. What narrators and story tellers say about that he walked for a period of time in earth while the sun was setting behind him is unreal, and most of it is from myths of People of the Book and inventions of their liars.

"he found it set in a spring of murky water" means he saw the sun according to his vision setting in the ocean and this is the same with everyone ending to the shore seeing as if the sun sets inside it (i.e. the ocean).
(Ibn Kathir, Tafsir-ul-Qur'ân Al-'Azim, Volume 5, page 120. Published by Maktabat-ul-Iman, Mansoura, Egypt)

I believe this is adequate to refute the missionaries' imposed interpretation. And to Allah is the Judgement in all affairs.


From www.call-to-monotheism.com

Taking 1 hadith out of context aint gonna cut it. Neither is making youtube videos with your own interpretation.

Search 4 Truth said...

@ Kim

One hadith? Have you read all of the evidence? You are in total denial of reality!

WhatsUpDoc said...

David I can not believe your ability to get to the smallest details. A wise man had said the devil is in the detail.

WhatsUpDoc said...

@Kim the series of these suras are based on when god realized that lot of people are asking questions to Prophet about Dhul Karnan. Therefore Allah decided to rehearse the Prophet so he can tell the inquiring public the truth about Dhul Karnan.

If what you are saying is true than the verse should simply end at a point that it looked to Dhul it was setting in the sea but that was not the case.

What about place of the sun rise and he found people there who had no protection from the sun. Please explain that to us while you are at it.

Kim said...

http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.com/2011/04/sun-sets-in-pool-of-slime-hadith.html

Kim said...

http://www.bismikaallahuma.org/archives/2005/mary-the-sister-of-aaron/

Dk said...

Personally I think the real issue with passages like these, is the OBVIOUS and CLEAR ambiguous nature of the passages.

Read Kim's supposed "tafseer" that is meant to "save" the day, and you can see the answers are all different, sometimes contradictory, and one virtually agrees with what David had said except says the muddy pool is the Sea.

Far from "resolving" the problem, Bass am only manages to enlarge the ambiguous content of such nonsensical passages by showing the incompetency of the commentators.

Book of God?

BOOOK OF GOD?????????????????

THIS IS THE BEST GOD HAS????????????

It's so EASY to be an Agnostic. =)

Notice the actual conclusion we should reach (what I have stated). Then notice how Kim frames this situation:

"oh it was inevitable studying stuff like this will lead us to the TRUTH of Islam, it was only one little problem, we have resolved it and found MORE of the glorious truth of my religion, there are no serious problems with my religion".

Right there are no serious problems with your religion because no one can make heads or tails out of the joke passages.

Oh by the way be consistent. Don't use science to "prove the Qur'an", and then when we point out passages that contradict science, it's "they should be reinterpreted non-literally".

Use the commentators to get you out of the crisis, but when we point out these same commentators don't make the same conclusions that you contemporary Muslims about the alleged "scientific" passages, now it's "oh they are not infallible" " we don't have to accept their interpretation".

And all the great scholars of Islam couldn't put back humpty together again...

Nakdimon said...

Kim, seriously. How can you quote Ibn Kathir, Qurtubi and all those scholars when we have an authentic narration from your prophet contradicting those personal views. It's one thing to promote a personal view of a scholar without a counter-citation from your prophet or them appealing to your prophet or his companions, but to actually overrule your prophet by citing scholars just because your prophet is blatantly wrong.... thats just intellectual suicide!

Dmitry said...

Dear Professor Wood,

can you say something against the argument that the Hadith you cited as proof is concidered weak?

Also another question if I may:

While traditional Sharia seem to clacifie rape as "zina" there is a sunnan abu dawud hadith that seems to contradict it: Book 38, Number 4366

http://muslim-responses.com/Biblical_God_Orders_Rape/Biblical_God_Orders_Rape_

Seems in this case no 4 witneses were required.
Bassam argues that this hadith is strong, can you say something about it since you never talked about this hadith.

sorry for my bad English and thank you in advance.

Richard said...

That the Sun sets in the Earth literally, is confirmed not only by the Quran 18:86 where it talks of Dhul Qarnayn travelling till he reached the "setting place of the Sun", but clarified by Muhammad to remove any possible doubt, in no less than 4 Sahih Hadiths:

Bukhari 6.326: ..The Prophet said, "O Abu Dharr! Do you know where the sun sets?" I replied, "Allah and His Apostle know best." He said, "It goes and prostrates underneath (Allah's) Throne; and that is Allah's Statement:-- 'And the sun runs on its fixed course for a term (decreed). And that is the decree of All-Mighty, the All-Knowing....' (36.38)

Muslim 1:297 “..the Messenger of Allah ..one day said: Do you know where the sun goes? They replied: Allah and His Apostle know best. He (the Holy Prophet) observed: Verily it (the sun) glides till it reaches its resting place under the Throne. Then it falls prostrate and remains there until it is asked: Rise up and go to the place whence you came, and it goes back and continues emerging out from its rising place and then glides till it reaches its place of rest under the Throne and falls prostrate and remains in that state until it is asked: Rise up and return to the place whence you came, and it returns and emerges out from it rising place and the it glides (in such a normal way) that the people do not discern anything ( unusual in it) till it reaches its resting place under the Throne. ..”

(This clearly shows that the Quran/ Muhammad believed that the Sun goes around a stationary fixed Earth. It also solves the problem - argued by Muslims - of how it rises from a different place where it sets in the Muddy spring - it "glides" to its "rising place" after being given permission by Allah, due no doubt to its "prostration")

Muslim 1:299, “..When the sun disappeared (from the sight) he said: O Abu Dharr! Do you know where it goes? He (the narrator) said: Allah and His Apostle know best. He (the Holy Prophet) said. Verily it goes and begs permission, for prostration (to Allah) and the permission is granted to it. Once it would be said: Return to the place whence you came, and then it would rise from its setting place…”

And AbuDawood 3991, which you have quoted.

Allah gets his cosmology badly wrong. AFTER he has created the Earth and all its plants and animals in 2 to 6 days (41:9 - 10) he creates the 7 heavens one on top of the other in 2 days and places the stars in the nearest heaven.

Unfortunately he also places the Moon in the midst of the 7 heavens, which places it further away than the stars! (71:15, 16 “"'See ye not how Allah has created the seven heavens one above another, 'And made the moon a light in their midst, ..") And like the Emperors New Clothes the Arabs all nod in unison - Yes Muhammad we can see all the 7 heavens - isnt Allah Great)

The Earth can hear and answer and choose whether to move or not, arbitrarily

41:11 "Then He turned to the heaven when it was smoke, [consisting of] rising vapours, and He said to it and to the earth, “Come both of you, to what I desire from you, willingly, or unwillingly!” ..They said, “We come, together with all those inhabiting us, willingly!”"

And so it goes on and on - this infallible word of Allah...

Sylwester said...

Wouldn't your third option be fatal for a Muslim? Punishable by death or something?

Richard said...

Osama Abdallah "Brother David Wood,

If the sun sets in a body of water, then it would have to rise back FROM THAT place and set into another body of water, which the Glorious Quran never makes any mention of, and then rise from that body of water and set into the first body of water, and then rise back from that body of water and set into the other body of water, and so on...."

No Osama Abdallah, the "Glorious Quran" says the sun rises from another place, but on the Earth.

Quran 18:89-90 "Then he followed a way until, when he reached the rising of the sun, he found it rising upon a people..."

This is confirmed by the Sahih Hadith Muslim 1:297 given in my post above where Muhammad says the sun "glides" to the place from where it rose and so the pattern is repeated every day.

Remember the "Glorious Quran" also says 36:37-38 "And a sign for them is the night; .. And the sun - it runs to a fixed resting-place; that is the ordaining of the All-mighty, the All-knowing."

The Quran confirms that the sun "rests" during the night in line with the beliefs of the time.

The Quran and the Hadiths are PERFECTLY CLEAR ON THIS MATTER. the sun is a small ball which sets in a muddy spring on the Earth. then it rests for the night (lies prostrate at the throne of Allah) seeking "permission" to rise again. This "permission is granted every day and it glides to its "rising place" and so the pattern is repeated every day.


Osama Abdallah "There is onething that I am very appreciative to you and Sam Shamoun and the others about, and that is you help me, and the Muslims like me, to further expose the false hadiths that exist in our database/library of Hadiths, which is estimated around 2 million hadiths, .."

But

1. These Hadiths are "Sahih" Hadiths already supposed to be "authentic". If you arbitrarirly reject some of these Hadiths, how can you accept ANY hadith?

2. They are also corroborated with the Quran and vice-versa

3. When you come across a scientific error in the Hadiths (of which there are very many) the only explanation you are willing to accept is that the Hadiths are wrong, even though there is corroborating statements in the Quran. You refuse to accept the immensely more plausible and obvious explanation that there is an actual error as it is consistent with the knowledge of the times.

4. Similarly when you come across the numerous scientific, historical, and logical errors in the Quran, the ONLY EXPLANATION you are willing to accept is that the interpretation is wrong, rather than the obvious and most likely explanation that the Quran is wrong, it is just a medieval human document with all the myths and errors of a backward medieval society and there is nothing “divine about it.

Unknown said...

86. Until when he reached the place the sun goes down, he saw the sun set [887] in the sea of black mud, and there he found a class of people [888]. We say: "Hi Dzulkarnain, you may be tortured or doing good [889] against them.

[887] The point: to the west coast where Dhu'l-Qarnayn see the sunset.

[888] He is the people who are not religious.

[889] that is by calling them to believe.

does not mean the sun is always immersed in the sea of black mud.
please see photo. and remember a lot of meaning in the Qur'an that the phrase figuratively. so please, do not always harmonize with the science of the Qur'an. because sometimes it's just a theory not science fact.

there is a black mud, black water. and when viewed it as a black mud.
and in the verse that describes what they look like.
see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Double_Green_Flash.jpg

Richard said...

@Arjun Sumarlan said...

I dont know what point you are trying to make, but you have not answered any of the points I have made.

The Quran says the sun has a "resting place". It sets in the Earth in a muddy pool. This is confirmed in 4 Sahih Hadiths. The Hadiths also say the Sun after setting in a muddy pool "slides" to its rising place and then rises every day.

This is not contrary to any unproven theory, but contrary to facts.

The Sun does not and cannot set and rise from the Earth.

This is just one of the numerous errors of the Quran which makes it consistent with a document produced by 7th century Arabs and not any very intelligent being.

Daniel 82 said...

Hi All,

I am a Christian and believe this argument is very weak.

Does the sun set in a muddy spring? Of cause not and it is clear by the verse in the Qaran

18:83 They ask thee concerning Zul-qarnain. Say, "I will rehearse to you something of his story."
Wayas-aloonaka AAan thee alqarnayniqul saatloo AAalaykum minhu thikran

18:84 Verily We established his power on earth, and We gave him the ways and the means to all ends.
Inna makkanna lahu fee al-ardiwaataynahu min kulli shay-in sababan

18:85 One (such) way he followed,
FaatbaAAa sababan

18:86 Until, when he reached the setting of the sun, he found it set in a spring of murky water: Near it he found a People: We said: "O Zul-qarnain! (thou hast authority,) either to punish them, or to treat them with kindness."
Hatta itha balaghamaghriba alshshamsi wajadaha taghrubu fee AAaynin hami-atinwawajada AAindaha qawman qulna ya thaalqarnayni imma an tuAAaththiba wa-imma antattakhitha feehim husnan

It means he came to a place where the sun set in a spring of murky water.

If I look went to a lake and described the sun setting in the lake. That would be an actual and visual description of what happened.

Seriously so called Christians concentrate on stronger arguments than this. You try to judge a muslim but how many of you have been in a mosque and met a real muslim?

How many of you have read the Qaran and learnt about the life of Muhammad?

Do these things first only then are you valid to make a comment on what and who a muslim truly is.

Tony Eka said...

If only the writer truly study astronomic, Sun is truly revolve around something that stationer.

Quran never said it was earth that stationary.. Keep an eyes an your heart open..

AD said...

David and others, I would urge you guys to get the exact arabic translations for the above verses and not depend on Sahih International or Pickthall or others.

Because for the verses:
18.85: { فأتبع سببا } سلك طريقا نحو الغرب .

and
18.89: { ثم أتبع سببا } نحو المشرق .

Google translate clearly mentions the words east and west. Again pointing at the fact that:
- He traveled east and reached the edge of the earth, and then travelled west and found the other edge
- The verse even uses the words 'he travelled until' he reached the setting & rising places of the sun - meaning - there was no more he could travel in that direction. Again hinting at the earth having an 'edge'
- So I wanted to know if the other verses referring to the 'setting place of the sun' actually have the word 'edge' in them in arabic. If they do - then that would be CONCLUSIVE PROOF that Quran talks of a flat earth model
Please look into it if you can...

- Lastly - notice how the verse 18.91 says - then we knew all we had to know about him - does this mean - then he had travelled all the world? This is also worth looking into for the authentic translation.

Richard said...

AD, the verse 18.85 of the Quran does not contain the words you have shown but merely فَأَتْبَعَ سَبَبًا (fa-atbaʿa sababan) which means 'so he followed a course or a way.

Similarly verses 88-89 say 'Then he followed a way until, when he reached the rising place (maṭliʿa) of the sun, he found it rising upon a people for whom We had not appointed any veil to shade them from it.'

This is clearly saying there is a setting place and a rising place of the sun.

This (Quran) was written at a time 1,000 years after the Greeks had discovered that the Sun does not set on the Earth and that the Earth was round.

The only erroneous thing that most of the Greeks and later Romans believed was that the Sun revolved around the Earth and not the other way round.

But the Quran clearly says that the sun stops and rests for the night, as I have pointed out, in verses 36:37-38:

"And a sign for them is THE NIGHT; We strip it of the day and lo, they are in darkness. And the sun -- IT RUNS TO A FIXED RESTING-PLACE; that is the ordaining of the All-mighty, the All-knowing."

There is no getting away from those two verses. The sun runs to its FIXED RESTING PLACE for the night according to the Quran.

Then its talks about the SETTING PLACE of the sun, which is a muddy pool and the RISING PLACE of the sun

And then there are no less than 4 Sahih Hadiths where Muhammad explains in great detail where the Sun goes at night - A MUDDY POOL, he says so.

It "remains prostrate" before allah till it is given permission to rise again and it then "slides" to its rising place and rises from there so that no one notices anything is amiss.

This will continue till the Judgement day when Allah will command the Sun to no more rise from the East but from the West.

These are just some of the absurd and unscientific things in the Quran there are literally dozens of others.

Besides these there are logical fallacies, historical errors, mathematical errors, just a complete hash more worthy of an ignorant school boy rather than the alleged creator of the Universe.

Chevalie said...

Chanses2
If anyone wants to be consistent, honest and sincere, please do read from this page:
http://www.biblestudymanuals.net/bible.htm

Matthew 26 fragment from 50 AD (called Magdalene Manuscript - an original manuscript - discovered 2 years ago) uses in its text nomina sacra (holy names) such as the diminutive "IS" for Jesus and "KE" for Kurie or Lord (The Times, Saturday, December 24, 1994). This is highly significant, because it suggests that the godhead of Jesus was recognised centuries before it was accepted as official church doctrine at the council of Nicea in 325 AD.

Read the proof of evidence, beyond a shadow of doubt, proving the Bible has not been corrupted.

Nabeel Alkhalidy said...

there is a very good rebuttal to David Wood by an Arabic and Quran teacher. I don't think David has a leg to stand on!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7DluJ5zIaI

Richard said...

Dear Nabeel Alkhalidy, I heard a bit of the so-called "rebuttal". I have heard the same arguments before.

Basically the argument is this:

Hey - the Quran doesn't actually say the the Sun sets (that is enters) the muddy / hot spring, it only APPEARED to set there.

If the Quran said the Sun entered the pool then it should have used the Arabic word for enter and not have said that the found the sun setting in a muddy spring after reaching THE SETTING PLACE OF THE SUN.

The argument fails on many grounds:

1. The Quran is talking about a very special place, namely, THE SETTING PLACE OF THE SUN

The apparent setting of the Sun into the horizon, which maybe a large body of water, is a daily occurrence quite unworthy of any special mention. This was a special place - a muddy spring where the Sun sets. Allah himself, according to the Quran, showed this person the way how to reach it.

After he had reached it, don't forget, according to the Quran, he continued onto THE RISING PLACE OF THE SUN

2. Can the sun be seen to APPARENTLY set in a muddy spring? Answer NO!

Why? Because the APPARENT setting of the Sun can only occur on the horizon, which is approximately 5 Km away for an average man standing on flat ground and much further if he was standing at a height.

Springs are small bodies of water in hilly or mountainous regions. So springs do not stretch to the horizon.

The surrounding areas of the spring are higher than the spring again cutting off the horizon.

There is thus no possibility of "apparently" seeing the Sun set in a muddy pool.

The only way the fellow could have "found" the Sun setting in a muddy spring was to have been pretty close by and seen it entering the spring.

3. That the Sun actually set on the Earth was a widespread belief in the seventh century and the Quran is consistent with this belief.

4. As pointed out by me above this verse in the Quran is backed up by no less than 4 Sahih Hadiths.

5. This further confirmed in the Quran when it says in verses 36:37-38:

"And a sign for them is THE NIGHT; We strip it of the day and lo, they are in darkness. And the sun -- IT RUNS TO A FIXED RESTING-PLACE; that is the ordaining of the All-mighty, the All-knowing."

When trying to defend errors in the Quran a favourite defence is - the translation is wrong.

In this case the man argues that if the Quran wanted to say the Sun entered the muddy pool it should have used the Arabic word for "enter".

In numerous places the Quran says the Earth is flat, surrounded by 7 domed "heavens". This is consistent with the old Babylonian myth which said the same.

However Muslims try and argue that the Quran actually says the Sun is round and shaped like an ostrich egg. I have debunked this also many times.

In all their elaborate and contorted arguments Muslims don't offer an explanation why, if the Quran wanted to say the Earth was spherical, it simply didn't use the Arabic word for sphere.

If you look at it with an unbiased eye, you can see that the Quran is simply a man made document, full of errors, promoting the wishes of a medieval despot and control freak posing as God almighty.

Nabeel Alkhalidy said...

Thank you Richard

you said "If you look at it with an unbiased eye"

I hope you take your advice. If it's talking about a "special place" as you suggest why doesn't the ayah say " The sun enters a dark pool of water" rather than saying that Dhul Qarnain reached a place when the sun was setting into a a dark pool of water.

I hope you know some Arabic so we can discuss this further.

Nabeel

Richard said...

Dear Nabeel,

I dont know any Arabic. Thus I have to depend on the translations of the Quran by Arabic experts and also a look into the translations of individual words from the Arabic lexicon, which is available online.

The Arabic translations may not be 100% accurate but they give a feel for the meaning of the verses. They are not 100% inaccurate either, in fact they are quite accurate and, so far as the general meaning is concerned, they can be considered reliable, trustworthy and unbiased. Specially since they are made almost entirely by Muslims.

That the Quran is talking about a special place, namely the setting place of the Sun, comes not from the translation but the general feel and context of the verses.

The apparent setting of the Sun is an everyday occurrence which is visible to everyone at sunset. The Sun appears to set into the Earth in the west. The ancient Greeks discovered this was not so and that the Earth was round but this was not generally known, specially to the ignorant Arabs of the 7th century. It was widely thought at that time that the Sun actually set into a flat Earth some place in the west. It was thought that if you travelled far enough to the west you could reach the actual place of the setting of the Sun.

Similarly if you travelled far enough to the East you could reach the rising place of the Sun.

The Quran talks about both these places.

That the Sun rose and set at different places was explained by Mohammed in Sahih Hadith Muslim 1:297

“..the Messenger of Allah ..one day said: Do you know where the sun goes? They replied: Allah and His Apostle know best. He (the Holy Prophet) observed: Verily it (the sun) glides till it reaches its resting place under the Throne. Then it falls prostrate and remains there until it is asked: Rise up and go to the place whence you came, and it goes back and continues emerging out from its rising place and then glides till it reaches its place of rest under the Throne and falls prostrate and remains in that state until it is asked: Rise up and return to the place whence you came, and it returns and emerges out from it rising place and the it glides (in such a normal way) that the people do not discern anything ( unusual in it) till it reaches its resting place under the Throne. ..”

The "resting place" of the Sun for the night is also talked about in the Quran 36:37-38, which is consistent with this Sahih Hadith.

Of course the Sun has no "resting place" and neither does it rest for the night.

This again sounds ridiculous today but was believable to the general populace of that time.

and in another Sahih Hadith Sunan Abu Dawud 3991— Abu Dharr said: I was sitting behind the Apostle of Allah who was riding a donkey while the sun was setting. He asked: Do you know where this sets? I replied: Allah and his Apostle know best. He said: It sets in a spring of warm water.

It was also not known how big the Sun was and was widely thought to be a small round object as it appeared to the naked eye. Thus it was entirely conceivable that it set into a hot spring.

That the Quran was talking about that special place where the Sun was thought to set into the Earth comes from the fact that the verse claims that Allah did many favours to this bloke Dhul Qurnain and "showed him the way" to "the setting place of the Sun". Nothing could be clearer than this.

There is no need to discuss the Arabic of the verse. I have addressed this issue and you have to think about and try and answer the points I have raised.

Regards

Richard

Kay said...


Well d'oh, it's a narration form 'Dhul-Qarnayn''s perspective --> "HE FOUND it setting in a spring of dark mud"

And when a person say these:

* i found the sun jump from a mountain (the way she/he sees it)
* i saw a star fall from the sky
* i saw the sun is drown in the sea.
* i saw the moon got shy, it hid behind clouds.

That's fine right? Well hey, people keep saying using that tone from early civilization to now, the modern age!
But that doesn't really mean the sun really jumps from a mountain and such.

Same goes with the next verse: when he came to the rising of the sun, HE FOUND it rising on a people for whom We had not made against it any shield (Al-Kahf [18:90])

~~

Anyway, when people said to you, I SEE stars in your eyes, do you really believe there are gigantic space matters coming from your cornea?

David Wood said...

Funny how all of the Muslims keep ignoring the fact that Muhammad himself gave the interpretation of the passage. Muhammad himself said that the sun sets in a pool of water. Metaphors mean something. What did Muhammad mean when he said that the sun sets in a pool of water?

BTW, when Muslims decide they can reinterpret anything that's obviously false in the Qur'an, they're opening the door for reinterpretation of other things as well. Perhaps when Allah tells people to worship him alone, he actually means people can worship whatever they want and they'll still get their virgins.

Kay said...

Errr,,, Abu Dawood collected 500,000 hadith (in comparison, al-Bukhari collected over 300,000 hadith). But it's nice to poke someones works when she/he did something say less accurate/understandable. It's like saying Einstein is a total idiot because he once proposed "a static universe", a model in which space is neither expanding nor contracting.
News flash: men are not perfect.


So when Einsten (just a man) had some errors in his works, should we reject all of his works entirely, or should we accept entirely? or do you have any other solution???


---
Hadith No. 3991 is classified as Shaz (Isolated) Hadith: Technical Meaning: Shaz Hadith is that Hadith wherein a comparatively less authentic narrator of Hadith opposes a more authentic narrator. This opposition may be either in Sanad (chain of transmission) or in Matan (text).

Compared to Sahih Bukhari:

Narrated Abu Dhar: The Prophet asked me at sunset, "Do you know where the sun goes (at the time of sunset)?" I replied, "Allah and His Apostle know better." He said, "It goes (i.e. travels) till it prostrates Itself underneath the throne.....................
(Book #54, Hadith #421)

http://www.letmeturnthetables.com/2012/09/weak-hadith-sun-spring-warm-water.html

~~~

And shall i remind you again that KORAN never says the earth is setting in a spring dark mud.
Quran said he (the guy named Dhul-Qarnayn') FOUND IT ....

Btw KORAN also says: "when he (Dhul-Qarnayn) came to the rising of the sun, he FOUND it rising on a people for whom We had not made against it any shield". Aren't you and your fella gonna make a new entry: Qur'an Error: Does the sun rise on a people ?

Kay said...

Anyway, when Quran describes something that God creates /stipulates, it goes as straight as these:

It is He Who stretched out the earth and placed firmly embedded mountains and rivers in it .. (Surat Ar-Ra‘d, 3)
And the sun runs [on course] toward its stopping point. That is the determination the decree of the Exalted in Might, the Knowing. (Surah Ya Sin, 38)
He is the Originator of the heavens and the earth. (Qur'an, 6:101)

~~~

You said "Perhaps when Allah tells people to worship him alone, he actually means people can worship whatever they want"

Umm, you see, we always refer to Quran (imagine hierarchy in law) and Quran has EXPLICITLY SAID in Surat Al Ikhlas; "He is Allah , [who is] One,Allah , the Eternal Refuge, He neither begets nor is born,Nor is there to Him any equivalent, as well as many other verses such as "17.23. Your Lord has decreed that you worship none but Him alone, and treat parents with the best of kindness.. (17.23)."

I don't think there are any hadith (shahih or weak) which dispute this.

David Wood said...

Wow. Are you inventing this as you go along? The Hadith is classified as SAHIH. If I can't trust even your SAHIH narrations, then we simply don't know anything about Muhammad.

Also, you act as if this error on Muhammad's part isn't important. But it is important. According to Islamic theology, Muhammad is the greatest interpreter of the Qur'an. If Muhammad believed that the Qur'an was saying that the sun sets in a pool, then that is the correct interpretation, according to Islam. For you to say Muhammad was wrong in his interpretation of the Qur'an means that you know more about the Qur'an than Muhammad.

And did you even read Qur'an 18:86? It says that Alexander the Great reached the place where the sun sets. This isn't talking about his point of view. This is Allah telling readers where Alexander went. So tell me, where does the Sun set. Obviously, it's some place on earth, since Alexander went there!

Richard said...

@ Kay "Well d'oh, it's a narration form 'Dhul-Qarnayn''s PERSPECTIVE --> "HE FOUND it setting in a spring of dark mud"

And when a person say these:

* i found the sun jump from a mountain (the way she/he sees it)
* i saw a star fall from the sky
* i saw the sun is drown in the sea.
* i saw the moon got shy, it hid behind clouds.

That's fine right? Well hey, people keep saying using that tone from early civilization to now, the modern age!
But that doesn't really mean the sun really jumps from a mountain and such."

Can you read? Comprehend? I have answered the claim that this guy Dhul Qurnain only APPARENTLY saw the sun setting in a muddy spring.

for one thing the sun cannot be apparently seen to set in a muddy spring. See above.

Do you have the slightest knowledge of science or facts? Does the sun have a stopping point or resting place for the night? (Quran 36:37-38 )

Kay said...

"If I can't trust even your SAHIH narrations, then we simply don't know anything about Muhammad"

Err, that's your problem.. bro.

Anyhoo, bear in mind that hadith indeed can be wrong/half accurate. After all, Hadith is not Quran which is specifically preserved by God. [ Absolutely, we have revealed the reminder, and, absolutely, we will preserve it] (another translation) We have, without doubt sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption) [Quran 15:9]

You see, Hadith (“News” or “Story”) is record of the traditions or sayings of the Prophet Muhammad.
And there are six categories of hadith Ṣaḥīḥ, Ḥasan, Ḍaʻīf, Mawḍūʻ (fabricated), Maqlūb.

"Also, you act as if this error on Muhammad's part isn't important"

errr where did i say that?? I said someone who NARRATED/REPLICATED his sayings might be wrong. It's understandable though, Can you imagine gathering 500.000 information during your life time? And guess what, as in Abu Dawood case, he was born in 817. Muhammad was born in 570. So just imagine how hard it was for Abu Dawood and other hadith compiler to do their noble work? That's why there are categorization of hadith based on its sanad and matn.

But if you are really desperate to get two-minutes of cheers and attention, why not exploit Ḍaʻīf/ Mawḍūʻ hadith?
I'm sure your fans will love it (pssst: they can't tell the difference)

Kay said...

Another hadith discussing the same issue:

The Prophet (peace be upon him) said to me: “O Abû Dharr! Do you know where the Sun goes when it sets?”

I said: “Allah and His Messenger know best.”

He said: “It goes until it prostrates beneath the Throne. Then it seeks permission and permission is granted to it. Soon it will prostrate and it will not be accepted from it, and seek permission and will not be granted permission. It will be said to it: ‘Go back where you came from.’ Then it will rise from its setting place. This is Allah’s statement: ‘And the Sun runs on to its place of settlement. That is the determination of the Mighty the Knowing. [Sûrah YâSîn: 38]’.” [Sahîh al-Bukhârî (3199, 7424)]

##

The Prophet (peace be upon him) said one day: “Do you know where the Sun goes when it sets?”

They said: “Allah and His Messenger know best.”

He said: “It goes until it arrives at its place of settlement beneath the Throne. Then it falls down in prostration and remains like that until it is said to it: ‘Arise! Go back from whence you came.’ Then it goes back and rises from its place of rising. Then it goes until it arrives at its place of settlement beneath the Throne. Then it falls down in prostration and remains like that until it is said to it: ‘Arise! Go back from whence you came.’ Then it goes back and rises from its place of rising. Then it goes without people finding anything wrong with it until it arrives at that place of settlement it has beneath the throne. Then it will be told: ‘Arise! Enter upon the morning rising from your setting place’.”

Then Allah’s Messenger (peace be upon him) said: “Do you know when that will be? It will be when ‘its faith will not avail a soul which had not believed before or earned some good from its faith. [Sûrah al-An`âm: 157]’.” [Sahîh Muslim (159,205) ]

Kay said...

Yeah, muddy spring, murky water, muddy water. Learn some arabic before do the bashing.

http://www.answering- christianity. com/ sunrise_sunset.htm

http://www. youtube. com/watch?v=n8R2rVgD2ok

~~~~~~~~~~
"Do you have the slightest knowledge of science or facts? Does the sun have a stopping point or resting place for the night?"

another translation of Quran 36:38

And the sun runs his course for a period determined for him: that is the decree of (Him), the Exalted in Might, the All-Knowing.

*Article just few days ago*
After the hydrogen in the sun is exhausted, the sun will become a stellar cinder and simply cool over time. We call this state, the END STATE of 98% of all stars, white dwarfs.

http://lightyears. blogs. cnn.com /2013/02/08/ science-seat-sun-will-inevitably-fry-earth/?hpt=hp_c4

And oh.. more scientific miracle in Quran --> http:// www. miraclesofthequran. com/scientific_index.html

(have F-U-N debunking them O-N-E BY O-N-E ;) )

Anonymous said...

@kay
Do you know how pathetic the article of adam 90 feet tall is on answering christianity article is?

Obviously Osama abdullah who ran the site doesn;t know how to measure surface gravity.

g = G * M / r^2

since earth's mass is relatively the same. lets make you do the math increase the radius and see what happens.

g =acceleration by earth's gravity
G= universal constant
M = mass
r=radius

now go ahead chuck some numbers in it

Richard said...

@ Kay "Yeah, muddy spring, murky water, muddy water. Learn some arabic before do the bashing."

and "another translation of Quran 36:38

And the sun runs his course for a period determined for him: that is the decree of (Him), the Exalted in Might, the All-Knowing."

Pathetic. Trying to say the translation is wrong. The classic defence of Muslim apologists.

Unfortunately you quote the Sahih Bukhari Hadiths where Muhammad confirms the passage in the Quran and the fact that the Quran says that the Sun rests for the night.

Here it is:

"The Prophet (peace be upon him) said one day: “Do you know where the Sun goes when it sets?”

They said: “Allah and His Messenger know best.”

He said: “It goes until it arrives at its place of settlement beneath the Throne. Then it falls down in prostration and remains like that until it is said to it: until it is said to it: ‘Arise! Go back from whence you came.’ Then it goes back and rises from its place of rising. Then it goes without people finding anything wrong with it until it arrives at that place of settlement it has beneath the throne. ..."

Now compare that with the Sun apparently setting in the horizon in the West and rising in the East. The Arabs in Muhammad's time believed that the Sun actually set and rose in and from the Earth and there was a setting place and rising place (actual places) of the Sun. Muhammad was no exception in this belief. The Quran talks about both the places.

The Sun does not "fall prostrate" when it sets. When it "falls prostrate" then it remains still. When you pray and you fall prostrate with your backside pointing away from Mecca, you might have noticed you are not moving.

The Sun, according to Muhammad remains in that prostrate position, asking for permission to "rise", then it is told "Arise" and it "slides" to its "rising place" and then goes "to its place of settlement" (a hot spring) and so the cycle is repeated until the judgement day.

Now if you really believe that nonsense there is no use talking further with you.

Kay said...

Errr, but then even bible says Adam died at the age of 930

"When Adam had lived 130 years, he had a son in his own likeness, in his own image; and he named him Seth." Genesis 5:3-5

And oh, ever heard Giant of Castelnau??

Moral lesson: there are perhaps differences between the first man and the 7 billions of people roaming the earth now.

~~
Do you think the word prostration in the hadith has exact meaning as the physical prostration in Salah?

Go nuts digging various meaning of prostration :

http://www.merriam-webster. com/dictionary/prostration
http://www.thefreedictionary. com/prostrates
http://en.wikipedia. org/wiki/Prostration

or, lemme dig it for ye:

* the process of being made powerless or the condition of powerlessness
* To reduce to extreme weakness or incapacitation; overcome: [an illness that prostrated an entire family; a nation that was prostrated by years of civil war]

And to God prostate all things that are in the Heavens and all things that are in the Earth, of the live moving creatures and the angels, and they are not proud [i.e. they worship their Lord with humility] (16:49)

See you not that to God prostrates whoever is in the Heavens and whoever is on the Earth, and the Sun, and the Moon, and the stars, and the mountains, and the trees, and the live moving creatures, and many of humankind? But there are many [people] on whom the Punishment is justified. And whomsoever God disgraces, none can honor him. Verily! God does what He wills. (22:18)

~~
The Arabs in Muhammad's time believed that the Sun actually set and rose in and from the Earth and there was a setting place and rising place (actual places) of the Sun."

Says who? Says you?

Richard said...

@Kay "Errr, but then even bible says Adam died at the age of 930..ever heard Giant of Castelnau??"

What exact bearing has this to the Sun setting in a muddy spring according the Quran and the Hadiths?

@Kay "Go nuts digging various meaning of prostration..lemme dig it for ye:

* the process of being made powerless or the condition of powerlessness
* To reduce to extreme weakness or incapacitation; overcome: [an illness that prostrated an entire family; a nation that was prostrated by years of civil war]"

I see so taking the Sahih Hadith which YOU have quoted:

“It goes until it arrives at ITS PLACE OF SETTLEMENT beneath the Throne. Then it FALLS DOWN in prostration and REMAINS LIKE THAT until it is said to it: until it is said to it: ‘ARISE! Go back from whence you came.’ Then it "GOES BACK" and RISES FROM ITS PLACE OF RISING. Then it goes without people finding anything wrong with it until it arrives at that PLACE OF SETTLEMENT it has beneath the throne. ..."

Please go nuts in translation and explain what it means?

What does "FALLS DOWN in prostration" mean?

and "REMAINS LIKE THAT" mean?

and "Then it "GOES BACK" and RISES FROM ITS PLACE OF RISING." mean?

Last I heard the Sun only apparently "goes" in one direction.

But according to the Hadith it "falls down in prostration" remains like that then slides to its "place of rising" - sliding back and forth... hmmm

@Kay "The Arabs in Muhammad's time believed that the Sun actually set and rose in and from the Earth and there was a setting place and rising place (actual places) of the Sun."

Says who? Says you?"

No ..actually the Quran and Muhammad says so. I dont believe any such thing - do you?

Unknown said...

This video found (وَجَدَ) not be reflecting the truth by many people. Maybe some of you have found (وَجَدَ) this video to be interesting, but it is your own "perception/opinion.”

You got the meaning, right. The word "found (وَجَدَ)" has been repeated twice in this example; you should already know what exactly it means in both sentences. The word “found” has been used as “it appears!” In addition, the word “found” (وَجَدَ = Appeared or Found, وَجَدَهَا = He Found (He refers to the human being in the story, Zul Qarnian)) is used twice in the same Ayye (verse); one points to the fact that Zul Qarnian sees/finds (his point of view) sunset, and the other one points to the fact that he finds (sees) “a people.” Moreover, Allah does not need to find or discover “a people.” Allah already knows everything. Indeed, the word “found” (وَجَدَ and وَجَدَهَا) has been used in the same Ayye (verse) twice for Zul Qarnian (وَجَدَهَا = He Found). This is what he finds by traveling! He finds/sees the sunset and he finds/sees the people.

Moreover, the world “sunset” and sun “sink in” are different in Arabic. It is due to English language that you think sun can both “set” and “sink/drawn” “in” an object. The word that describes sunset in Arabic is [Gorub] (غروب) and the word used in Arabic for “sink” or “drown” is [Garg] “غرق”. They are two different words! They don’t have the same meaning! In Arabic, there is no such a relation between [Gorub] (غۡرُبُ) and [Garg] “غرق”.

Moreover, if you live in California near the ocean, you will see sunset (sun “setting”) behind the ocean, won’t you? Is it scientifically wrong? NO! It is true that “sun” “sets” behind the ocean in California, or behind a mountain in Alaska. It doesn’t mean that it sinks “in!” Even though the word “sunset” in English may lead you think that it can goes into the water, the word [Gorub] (غروب) has nothing to do with sinking or “drowning.” In Arabic, you don’t say “Sun” “Sets” “in” “something.” There is no “in!” [Gorub] (غروب) describes the motion of sun at sunset; in Arabic a person cannot say sun sets “in” something. “In” [Fi] (في) is not used for sunset [Gorub] (غروب) because it describes a motion. However you can use “in” [Fi] (في) for drowning [Garg] “غرق”. For example, “يغرق في الماء‎” which means “drown in water.”

Indeed, Arabic is a very rich language and you cannot solely rely on translation to understand.

I am not a native Arabic speaker, but I don’t have such a difficulty interpreting this Ayye (verse); it is so clear. Indeed, I have to tell you that Arabic is a very big and rich language and Allah uses it perfectly in Quran. Do not solely relay on translation. If you want to learn the truth, you need to investigate more than just relaying on English translation. Always remember, Allah is the greatest!

Kay said...

Thanks Abdul,

Clearly, both Richard and I don't understand Arabic. And it's a good thing that Qur'an has its original language. So despite it's been translated into German, Urdu, Persian, Polish, Chinese, Latin, Japanese, Swahili, Indian, Russian, etc we can always refer back to its original version - in this case Arabic (*)- for further clarification.

BTW, the funny thing is, those who try to twist Qur'an are those who don't understand Arabic, using translations. No wonder their target are those who don't understand Arabic as well. It's like a clueless person trying to mislead another clueless person.

So Richard, before you do your main job (i.e. twisting the Qur'an) why not first ask person proficient in Arabic language--for the sake of professionalism. And if you are reluctant to find local imam, just find local Arab guy/local translator in your area. And oh, not all of Arabic-speaking people are Muslims - so you might want to consult them as well.

Anyhow, I wonder if there are lexical (among other) disputes in the Bible, which versions should be used as main reference?? The Hebrew version? the 'koaine' Greek version (although Jesus himself didn't speak Greek)? the Aramaic version? the Chinese version? the Swahili version? the Thai version? BTW, should we use the 'original' or the updated version? And which update? Oh boy.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

(*)

"And thus: We have revealed to you a Quran in Arabic so that you may warn the Foremost of all towns and those who dwell around it, and may warn of the Day of Gathering, which is beyond all doubt. (Quran 42:7)

"Behold, We have sent it down in all clarity, in the Arabic tongue, so that you might encompass it with your reason." (Quran 12:2)

"Behold, We have made it a Quran in clear Arabic language that you may fully understand." (Quran 43:3)

"Now if We had made it a Quran in a non-Arabic tongue they would surely have said, "Why is it that its verses have not been made clear? Why - a foreign tongue and an Arab?" Say, "For those who accept it, this is a Guidance and medicine for a wholesome life. But as for those WHO WILL NOT BELIEVE (Arabs or non-Arabs), in their ears is deafness, and so it remains obscure to them. They are like people who are called to from afar." (Quran 41:44)

Richard said...

@Abdul Hamit "the world “sunset” and sun “sink in” are different in Arabic"

Surprise, surprise, they are different in English also. But when the Sun sets it appears to "sink into" the Earth. Many medieval people, including the Arabs, were under the impression that it literally "sank into" the Earth.

Muhammad also thought so, in fact he said so in no less the 4 Sahih Hadiths, if you would care to read what was been pointed out and quoted many times above.

He declared the Sun sets into a muddy pool. And he wrote the same thing in the Quran

@ Abdul Hamit "Moreover, if you live in California near the ocean, you will see sunset (sun “setting”) behind the ocean, won’t you?"

I do not live in California near the ocean but anyone living anywhere on Earth, in an open area, can see the Sun "setting" in the Earth, be it land or water.

But it is not possible to see the Sun setting in a muddy spring, as I have pointed out many times above.

The sun always sets in the horizon, which is at least 5 kilometres away. More if you are at a height.

@Kay "So Richard, before you do your main job (i.e. twisting the Qur'an) why not first ask person proficient in Arabic language"

Clearly these people are not Kay or Abdul Hamit. Both of you have confessed about not knowing Arabic. So it seems all 3 of us are on equal footing in this regard. (Though despite not knowing Arabic you have tried to explain Arabic to me. Though you have not managed to explain why Muhammad said the Sun set in a muddy pool)

@ Kay ""Behold, We have sent it down in all clarity, in the Arabic tongue, so that you might encompass it with your reason." (Quran 12:2)"

The Quran indeed claims its a clear book in several places. Quran 11.1, 6:114, 16:89 and 41:3

Yet its laid down in a language that few understand (Arabic of the Quraishi dialect that coincidentally was the only language that Muhammad spoke) and few people can agree on the interpretations of the verses.

Strange.

"...But as for those WHO WILL NOT BELIEVE (Arabs or non-Arabs), in their ears is deafness, and so it remains obscure to them. They are like people who are called to from afar." (Quran 41:44)

I find it difficult to believe the Sun sets in a muddy spring -true. Maybe in my ears there is a deafness?

Kay said...

So this is all about the MUDDY SPRING isn't?

The MUDDY SPRING which was taken from The Quran Translation by Marmaduke Pickthall?

"Till, when he reached the setting-place of the sun, he found it setting in a muddy spring, and found a people thereabout. We said: O Dhu'l-Qarneyn! Either punish or show them kindness."

Well, since Mr Pickthall was not the ONE AND ONLY GUY who had translated Quran, let's check what other guys' translation:

Muhammad Asad : [And he marched westwards] till, when he came to the setting of the sun, it appeared to him that it was setting in a DARK, TURBID SEA; and nearby he found a people [given to every kind of wrongdoing]. We said: "O thou Two-Horned One! Thou mayest either cause [them] to suffer or treat them with kindness!"

Shakir : Until when he reached the place where the sun set, he found it going down into a BLACK SEA, and found by it a people. We said: O Zulqarnain! either give them a chastisement or do them a benefit.

Yusuf Ali : Until, when he reached the setting of the sun, he found it set in a SPRING OF MURKY WATER: Near it he found a People: We said: "O Zul-qarnain! (thou hast authority,) either to punish them, or to treat them with kindness."
~~~~
WOW, there are so many variations, aren't there. Muddy spring, turbid sea, black sea, a spring of murky water. I wonder what the Swahili translation would say.

Anyhoo, even if the verse literally means springs (please consult someone knows Arabic first), many springs are indeed quite big, they can SWALLOW SUN.
Just check Grand Prismatic Spring, Pruess Lake, Giant Springs (Montana), springs in the dead sea (surprise, surprise, there's SPRINGS in the dead sea. And we also know how delicate the dead sea MUD is)

@I find it difficult to believe the Sun sets in a muddy spring -true. Maybe in my ears there is a deafness?

Well i guess, you're just too lazy. Too lazy to understand there are other translations beside Pickthall translation. Too lazy to consult people who understand Arab language (while there are at least 300.000.000 of them). Too quick to make judgment based on prejudice and hatred - while the research is minimum at best.

But then again, the classic attitude you've just exhibited is numerously stated in the Quran.
I mean, if Quran had revealed many facts that mankind just found thousand years later, like the earth that's not perfectly round (Newton 'discovered' this in 17th century) - why not the simple behavior of the unbelievers?

Richard said...

@Kay "So this is all about the MUDDY SPRING isn't?"

No. This is all about THE SETTING-PLACE OF THE SUN - a very special place, where according to the Quran, the Sun rests for the night at its "RESTING PLACE".

Quran 36:37-38:

"And a sign for them is THE NIGHT; We strip it of the day and lo, they are in darkness. And THE SUN -- IT RUNS TO A FIXED RESTING-PLACE; that is the ordaining of the All-mighty, the All-knowing."

This RESTING PLACE is translated as a muddy or dark, murky, hot spring by many Arabic scholars.

"The MUDDY SPRING which was taken from The Quran Translation by Marmaduke Pickthall?"

Not only Pickthall

Ahmed Raza Khan: “To the extent that when he reached THE SETTING-PLACE OF THE SUN, he found it setting in a muddy spring,..”

Arberry: “until, when he reached THE SETTING OF THE SUN, he found it setting in a muddy spring, ..”

Daryabadi “Until when he reached THE SETTING-PLACE OF THE SUN, he perceived it setting in a miry spring, ..”

Hilali and Khan “Until, when he reached THE SETTING PLACE OF THE SUN, he found it setting in a spring of black muddy (or hot) water..”

Maududi “ until when HE REACHED THE VERY LIMITS WHERE THE SUN SETS, he saw it setting in dark turbid waters;..”

Pickthall “Till, when he reached THE SETTING-PLACE OF THE SUN, he found it setting in a muddy spring,..”

Qaribullah and Darwish “until, WHEN HE REACHED THE SETTING OF THE SUN, he found it setting in a muddy spring,..”

Sarwar “to the West where HE FOUND THE SUN SETTING INTO A WARM SOURCE (spring) of water..”

Shakir “Until when he reached THE PLACE WHERE THE SUN SET, he found it going down into a black sea,..”

Yusuf Ali : “Until, when HE REACHED THE SETTING OF THE SUN, he found it set in a spring of murky water:..”

@Kay ".. many springs are indeed quite big, they can SWALLOW SUN."

Please go back to school Kay. There is NO spring or Sea capable of swallowing the Sun. The Sun is 1,300,000 times larger than the Earth by volume (that is one million three hundred thousand times larger). Moreover it doesnt set in the Earth it only APPEARS to do so.

Even Shakir's translation which translates it as a "BLACK SEA" says clearly that the guy travelled to THE PLACE WHERE THE SUN SET. Get it? THE place. Not any old place THE PLACE. What place? "WHERE THE SUN SET" and he found it going INTO a spring of murky water.

@Kay "WOW, there are so many variations, aren't there. Muddy spring, turbid sea, black sea, a spring of murky water."

Well lets consult the Arabic lexicon. The word used is عَيْنٍ or ʿaynin and it means a spring or hot spring. This word is also used in verse 88:5 of the Quran and what is it translated as? Surprise, surprise - hot spring.

@Kay "But then again, the classic attitude you've just exhibited is numerously stated in the Quran."

Of course. All charlatans and humbugs say we are telling the truth and if anyone doubts us they are the worst of creatures and will rot in hell.

@Kay "I mean, if Quran had revealed many facts that mankind just found thousand years later, like the earth that's not perfectly round.."

If only it had. But instead the Quran has revealed the Earth is perfectly flat and surrounded by 7 domed "heavens" that the stars are points of light used as "decorations" and the Sun and the Moon are further from us than the stars.

Greg said...

What a shame. This was a very poorly informed comments debate due to many false assertions and speculation about the meaning of certain arabic words by certain Muslim commenters.

All that stuff like what does he found it 'wajada' mean, when translations say 'spring' does it mean spring or sea in arabic etc. is all covered in the appropriate sections of the last article David links to in his original post labelled Dhu'l Qarnayn and the sun controversy...

High Treason said...

Like any scientific theory, it takes just ONE error to cast doubt on a theory. If the Qur'an really is the absolute truth, having gone from Allah, through the prophet Muhammad to the Holy Qur'an and thus the word of God,then NO ERRORS whatsoever can be expected. The presence of so much as a single error brings the entire suggestion of the Book's holiness in to question. That science was not advanced then is NO excuse- God, as a divine and perfect entity would know the correct answer and would be able to give this answer to Muhammad. Just the single point of this inaccuracy about where the sun sets dispels the divinity of the Qur'an, Muhammad as a true Prophet or Allah as a divine God. One or several must be wrong. Islam itself is based on false pretenses.
Personally, I reject Islam-the doctrine of submission to Allah-does this somehow make me a racist?

Unknown said...

Dear David & Sam, I have been a long time admirer and follower. I have a great idea for a Video. THE EXCUSES OF PROPHET MUHAMMAD. He has an excuse for eating poison and succumbing to its effects, excuse for marrying his son in laws ex-wife, excuse for sleeping with any wife he choose and fancy without the need to ask for permission, excuse get rid of his dinner guest early using Allah, excuse to have sex with war booty by marrying them same day their sons and husbands were killed without giving them any time to grief, excuse to have sex with Mary the Copt using what your right hand possess verse etc.. SO MANY LAME EXCUSES BY FALSE PROPHET MUHAMMAD...
Stevie

satumacam said...

Verily God decides who He shall give eyes and wisdom to see the truth. Dzulqarnain certainly was not a superstitious minded primitive caveman seeing the fact that he traveled the world and worked with alloy metal. If it was literally a spring that the sun set into, then certainly there would be a story of him diving into it to look for the sun.

Obviously the text can be understood in common English as "Until when he reached a place where the sun sets on a spring of dark mud..".

It just needs an open mind to understand.

Richard said...

satumacam said... "It just needs an open mind to understand". [What the Quran says about the setting place and rising place of the Sun]

True satumacam, not difficult to understand. The Quran clearly says the Sun sets on Earth at a special place in a muddy spring and rises from the Earth also at a place where "a people [live] for whom We had not appointed any veil to shade them from it [the Sun]."

But to try and "understand" it the way would like us to understand it, [in other words not saying what it is clearly saying] you will have to rely on the intelligence of this mysterious person "Dzulqarnain"

According to you he "certainly was not a superstitious minded primitive caveman" and if he thought that "it was literally a spring that the sun set into, then certainly there would be a story of him diving into it to look for the sun."

And since there is no "story" about him diving into the pool to look for the Sun then obviously it wasn't literally the place the Sun set into.

But then there are many alternative explanations for that, it was a hot muddy spring, he couldn't swim, couldn't dive, didn't want to.

And of course there is the simplest and most obvious explanation of all. The one explanation you absolutely refuse to consider. That the whole thing is a story. The Quran is a story riddled with errors.

Your hypothesis / belief is that the Quran is true despite all the evidence to the contrary.

It just needs an open mind to understand that beliefs and hypotheses have to be rejected if the evidence does not support them.

مدونة الدفاع عن الجزيرة العربية ( السعودية) said...


The sun rises from the east and sets in the west
But it does not disappear
When you stand on the seaside you will see sun sojourned in the sea but
actually
gets sojourned along your horizon
zulkarnain came from the east, and went to the West and the Koran telling us
what Zulkarnain did have seen not talking about scientific fact
The sun sets in the eye of the viewer in one place if you're at a point A you see the sun sets at point B. If you go to point B you see the sun sets in point E

http://aljazeeraalarabiamodwana.blogspot.com/2015/02/answer-sun-sets-in-muddy-spring-horses.html

Richard said...

دونة الدفاع عن الجزيرة العربية السعودية
The Quran is full of errors. It repeats itself many times and when it does it sometimes contradicts itself. It has obviously been written by Arabs of the 7th century

However you cannot believe such a thing because you have been taught since childhood that not to believe that the Quran has been written by God is the greatest sin. You therefore rationalize these errors in your mind. You explain to yourself what is true is wrong and what is false is true.

I am using Google Translate to convert this into Arabic.

لقرآن مليء بالأخطاء. أنها تكرر نفسها عدة مرات وعندما تفعل ذلك يتناقض أحيانا نفسها. ومن الواضح أن تم كتابته من قبل العرب في القرن 7

ومع ذلك لا أستطيع أن أصدق مثل هذا الشيء لأنك قد علمت منذ الطفولة أن لا نعتقد أن القرآن قد تم wriiten الله هو أعظم خطيئة. لذلك يمكنك ترشيد هذه الأخطاء في عقلك. لك أن تشرح لنفسك ما هو صحيح هو الخطأ وما هو زائف هو الصحيح.

A caring Brother said...

What is the problem with a sun setting in murky water. Have you never seen the effects of a sunset under which water can be seen as a beautiful reflection of it. If this is "murky" water, it can still work; I don't understand what you are trying to say. Try searching for, on Google Images, sun setting in water. You will see the sun, and under which is the reflection by the body of water. I don't feel it makes a difference if it is "murky" water, nor does it make a difference if it is a spring as long as it is water (black water can still reflect light), these can all still reflect the light.

Furthermore, A people were found near this water, sure, no contradiction there either. Have you never seen people near a sun setting near a body of water.

The setting place of the sun is not to show you anything scientific; ie. in the modern world, we say the sun is setting but in actual fact it is not. This is just to clarify to people in order that they understand.

Also, "when he reached the setting place of the sun," makes sense too. Can you not see that he has reached a specified time (Maghrib) with which it can be clarified to be. "When" can be used in many different ways: when is defined as (dictionary.com)
adverb
1.
at what time or period? how long ago? how soon?:
When are they to arrive? When did the Roman Empire exist?
2.
under what circumstances? upon what occasion?:
When is a letter of condolence in order? When did you ever see such a crowd?
conjunction
3.
at what time:
to know when to be silent.
4.
at the time or in the event that:
when we were young; when the noise stops.
5.
at any time; whenever :
He is impatient when he is kept waiting.
6.
upon or after which; and then:
We had just fallen asleep when the bell rang.
7.
while on the contrary; considering that; whereas:
Why are you here when you should be in school?
pronoun
8.
what time:
Till when is the store open?
9.
which time:
They left on Monday, since when we have heard nothing.
noun
10.
the time of anything:
the when and the where of an act.

What does this mean? It means that he reached the place at the specified term, as is mentioned in the Quran Chapter 18 verse 86.

Please do not mention things unknown to you; it should not only be supposed that Dhul-Qarnayn is Alexander the Great.

I hope this brings to you a bit of knowledge.

Richard said...

Dear caring Brother,

There is a problem with it being a spring because springs are generally in hilly areas. For someone to “apparently” see the Sun setting in a body of water the water expanse has to be very large. The apparent setting of the sun is in the horizon, which is at least 5 kilometres away on flat ground for a person of average height. If you are at a height of say 10 metres looking down at a spring, the horizon would be about 15 kilometres away.

Then you say “Can you not see that he has reached a specified time (Maghrib) with which it can be clarified to be. "When"”

Caring Brother you take one meaning of Maghrib while ignoring the other obvious root meaning of the Arabic word which means “Where the sun sets, the West”. Your Maghrib prayers are done when the sun sets.

I never claimed, nor does the article claim, that Dhul-Qarnayn is Alexander the Great.

Your long explanation of “when” only confuses the issue and confuses you.

Please read my posts. There are multiple reasons why it is perfectly clear the Quran says the Sun actually sets into a hot muddy pool of water and “rests” for the night.

Quran 36:37-38: "And a sign for them is THE NIGHT; We strip it of the day and lo, they are in darkness. And THE SUN -- IT RUNS TO A FIXED RESTING-PLACE; that is the ordaining of the All-mighty, the All--knowing."

The mistake you make caring Brother is to assume that the Quran is the truth and then try and find some ways to explain its many errors, rather than see the errors and then because of that come to the conclusion that the Quran is not the truth.

satumacam said...

this is getting out of track. if you're taking everything literally, then i say the sun doesn't even rise and set..it's just orbiting around. and then i can say that the English language is wrong for saying so

Richard said...

satumacam it is you who are trying every trick in the book to deceive yourself that the Quran and Muhammad, (remember Muhammad corroborated the Quran in no less than 4 Sahih Hadiths - please see my earlier replies), did not say that the Sun literally set into a muddy pool.

I say deceive yourself, because that's what people do when they want to believe something that is obviously not true. You are certainly not deceiving me.

The English language correctly says the sun sets and the sun rises because that's what it appears to do from the Earth and that's what people believed for many thousands of years including the Arabs and Muhammad who was the chief author of the Quran. (Some people may have edited a little bit here and there after or during the time it was compiled by the Caliph Abu Bakr)

This is not the only error of the Quran it is simply riddled with errors, errors of history, logic, science, cosmology and even simple arithmetic. For example Allah sometimes says he created heaven and Earth in 7 days then at one stage starts giving some details which add up to 8 days. A mistake you would expect from an illiterate Arab but not from a being who is allegedly all wise and all knowing.

You should give up Islam. It is full of lies and hate and mirrors the character of Muhammad. Just look at the horrific violence committed by Muslims carrying out the direct orders of Muhammad/the Quran. Including the killing of the poor innocent Christians in Kenya.

You say there is no God but Allah but Allah himself says in the Quran there are other Gods - only that he is the best of them. Quran 23:14 and 37:125 where it says “Allah is the best of the creators”. (If he was the best of creators it follows there were other creators but not quite so good as him). In several other places he says he is the best of providers, judges, etc.

This reveals Muhammad's pre-Islamic polytheism. Allah was the chief deity of the Meccans. He had 3 daughters mentioned in the Quran, (and also in the "Satanic verses" removed from the Quran.

Please leave this vile religion, full of lies, deception, violence and hate and join humanity with love and tolerance. I'm sure your'e a better person than what Muhammad commands you to be.

Qaisar said...

Allah has set a seal upon their hearts and upon their hearing, and over their vision is a veil. And for them is a great punishment. 2:7

Richard said...

Why are quoting from a book that says the Sun sets in a muddy pool? Why do you believe in it despite all its errors and lies?

UnitePak Waqar said...

The verse "sunset مغرب الشمس" is either time or location in Arabic, it depends on the context. However in this case the Arabic grammar indicates that it is time only. So this verse says that a man was at a pond at sunset (and not sun setting in a pond).
=======

"Hatta in Arabic حتى" means "until" (a timeframe, not a location). The word that refers to location is "Haith حيث" however it wasn't used here. Since this verse started with a conditional timeframe (حتى اذا) then the rest of the sentence has to be a timeframe (not a location); otherwise the condition would not be met. So "setting of the sun مغرب الشمس" is a timeframe (not a location). However it was mistranslated to the "setting place of the sun" a location. The word "place" was added by the translators.

The midsentence "وجدها تغرب في عين حمئة" on its own either means "while setting he was in a pond" or it means "he found it setting in a pond", in Arabic it is the exact same wording. So it is the context that decides the meaning. For example, "وجدها تمطر" means "he found it raining". Does it mean that the clouds were down there? Of coarse not, it is just an expression meaning "it rained on him". Similarly "وجدها تغرب" does not mean that the sun was there. It means that it happened at sunset (timeframe). This correctly meets the previous conditional timeframe (حتى اذا).

In Arabic grammar all places and locations are referred to in the male mode. For example, "هاذا المكان"... Since the setting place of the sun is a location then it should also be referred to in the male mode; however this was not the case. This verse ends with female mode: "he found at it people وجدعندها قوما" here "it ها" the Arabic is in the female mode; which means it refers to the muddy spring (عين حمئة female mode) and not to the "setting place of the sun" (male mode). Also "it ها" cannot refer to the sun (female mode) as skeptics claim because the sun is no longer there, rather what is left there is its setting location (male mode). Why is it not there? Because if it is still there then this would NOT be its setting place as they claim.

So both the conditional timeframe at the beginning of the verse and the female mode at the end prove that the translation was wrong.

Quran 18.86 simply says that Thu Al-Qarnain continued moving until sunset, while setting he (and his army) were in a muddy spring and there he found people...

So the sun setting in a murky water or muddy spring is just a mistranslation. Other mistranslations in the same story of Thu Al-Qarnein are: The word "saddain" in Arabic means "two dams" however it was mistranslated to other languages as "two mountains". Another word "sadafain" in Arabic means "two shells" however it was mistranslated also to the same word "two mountains". The frequent mistranslation of the Quran presents wrong stories in other languages. Please always refer to Arabic Quran.
==
MEAN QURAN WRIITTEN IN ARABIC LANGUAGE NOT ENGLISH . THIS IS TRANSLATOR MISTAKE,

Salman said...

See Muslim version of why the words you attributed to Prophet Muhammad (Peace be on him) about Sun setting in muddy water are not reliable and missing in other more numberous versions of the Hadith:
http://www.letmeturnthetables.com/2012/09/weak-hadith-sun-spring-warm-water.html
May God Almighty guid all. Amen.

Richard said...

@Salman "See Muslim version of why the words you attributed to Prophet Muhammad (Peace be on him) about Sun setting in muddy water are not reliable..."

1. There are no less than 4 Sahih Hadiths confirming what is written in the Quran. They are consistent with (agree with) the Quran

2. The Quran also says the Sun rests for the night in a resting place. It is obviously ignorant of the fact that the Sun does not set in the Earth (as it appears) and as it was believed in olden times. The Greeks had discovered this over a thousand years earlier, but the Arabs and Muhammad were ignorant of this fact, and he reflects it in his Quran.

Quran 36:37-38:

"And a sign for them is THE NIGHT; We strip it of the day and lo, they are in darkness. And THE SUN -- IT RUNS TO A FIXED RESTING-PLACE; that is the ordaining of the All-mighty, the All-knowing."

Richard said...

@upfood - Please look at the reply to Salman

The Quran is riddled with mistakes. A flat Earth, the Sun resting for the night, setting in the Earth, the old Babylonian myth of 7 heavens, the stars as adornments of the heaven, shooting stars being jinns etc etc etc.

It is written and dictated by Muhammad. Muhammad said that what he was writing came to him from God or the angel Gabriel, but no one saw the angel except for Muhammad and no one heard God speaking except Muhammad.

If someone told you that today, you would not believe him, but Muhammad said, and he put down in his Quran, that everyone who did not believe him should be killed and would go to hell, which he painted as a very dreadful place of eternal torture. Any Muslim who stopped believing should be killed and that is how Islam enforces its beliefs.

In the 21st Century we should stop believing in old myths and fairy tales.

satumacam said...

@richard,
I just checked, 'resting place' is not even a correct translation which contradicts with many other translations. I even tried google translate. Of all the translations, 'resting' is not there. Your point is not valid.

Quran 2:256: "There is no compulsion in religion..."

Richard said...

@satumacam
Arberry - "And a sign for them is the night; We strip it of the day and lo, they are in darkness. (37) And the sun -- it runs to a fixed resting-place; that is the ordaining of the All-mighty, the All-knowing. (38)"
Pickthall - "A token unto them is night. We strip it of the day, and lo! they are in darkness. (37) And the sun runneth on unto a resting-place for him. That is the measuring of the Mighty, the Wise. (38)"
Saheeh International "And a sign for them is the night. We remove from it [the light of] day, so they are [left] in darkness. (37) And the sun runs [on course] toward its stopping point. That is the determination of the Exalted in Might, the Knowing. (38)"

This is consistent with its meaning. Consistent with the story of the Sun setting in a muddy pool and consistent with MANY Sahih Hadiths. So my point is valid.

Quran 2:256: "There is no compulsion in religion..."

True, but this has been abrogated by later verses

4:80: "Those who obey the Messenger obey Allah."

Bukhari (52:260) - "...The Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.' " - That seems pretty compelling to me

And Satumacam - just think - why should the "eternal word of God' keep repeating itself? Be so concerned about Muhammad?" be so full of errors and myths (Babylonian myth of the 7 heavens etc) Why should Allah change his mind even as Muhammad evolved from a peaceful preacher in Mecca to a raiding warlord in Medina?

Denial - when a person is faced with a fact or facts that are too uncomfortable to accept and rejects it instead, insisting that it is not true despite what may be overwhelming evidence.

Confirmation bias - to selectively search for and look for evidence that confirms what one is brainwashed to believe and ignore all evidence that is contrary to your beliefs.

Richard said...

@satumacam

To summarise,

1. The verses 36:37-38 taken together leave no doubt that the Quran is talking about the day and the night.

2. Verse 36:38 leaves no doubt that the Quran says that the Sun MOVES about the Earth.

3. SEVERAL translations, (Arberry, Ahmed Raza Khan, Itani, Maududi, Pickthall, Qarai, Qaribullah & Darwish, Saheeh International), say in this verse 36:38 that the Sum moves towards a stopping point, or resting place, or destination, in the context of day and night, so clearly after sunset.

4. Then in 18:86 it says that it sets in a muddy spring. The sun cannot appear to set in a muddy spring. To see why - read my post somewhere above.

5 That the Sun sets in the Earth literally, is confirmed not only by the Quran 18:86 where it talks of Dhul-Qarnayn travelling till he reached the "setting place of the Sun" , but clarified by Muhammad to remove any possible doubt, in no less than 4 Sahih Hadiths:

6. The most detailed of these Sahih Hadiths is Muslim 1:297

“..the Messenger of Allah ..one day said: Do you know where the sun goes? They replied: Allah and His Apostle know best. He (the Holy Prophet) observed: Verily it (the sun) glides till it reaches its resting place under the Throne. Then it falls prostrate and remains there until it is asked: Rise up and go to the place whence you came, and it goes back and continues emerging out from its rising place and then glides till it reaches its place of rest under the Throne and falls prostrate and remains in that state until it is asked: Rise up and return to the place whence you came, and it returns and emerges out from it rising place and the it glides (in such a normal way) that the people do not discern anything (unusual in it) till it reaches its resting place under the Throne. ..”

7. And sure enough the Quran also talks about the rising place of the sun, shortly after that verse, in verse 18:80

Now let us examine the evidence that:

the Quran does not say the Sun moves about the Earth in verse 36:38 - None

the Quran does not say the Sun moves to fixed resting place, destination or stopping point - that all those translations are wrong, that verse 18:86 does not say what it seems to say, that verse 18:80 also does not say what it seems to say and the 4 Sahih Hadiths, are wrong.

These are all negative things that try to deny the consistent account of the Quran and the Hadiths that the Sun moves about the Earth, sets in it, and rises from it.

And what is the positive evidence in the Quran that states the Earth is a sphere or is round? - None. Not one verse.

What is the positive evidence in the Quran that states the Earth spins around its axis causing night and day? - None. Not one verse.

What is the positive evidence in the Quran that states the Earth moves, and revolves around the sun? - None. Not one verse.

Quran 2:256: "There is no compulsion in religion..."

Not so, this is abrogated by

Quran 9:29 - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."

Besides many Sahih Hadiths where Muhammad commands the killing of apostates.

satumacam said...

@Richard,
When you concluded on verse 36:38 which does not mention Earth at all..I started to think that you don't know that like the Earth, the Sun too moves in its orbit. The sun orbits the Milky Way. And when talking about the fact that the sun moves in the 7th century, you know now that it's a revelation from the creator.

And talking about the phrase rising and the setting of the sun, they are not absent from the bible either.

Quran 9:29 is about warfare, which naturally involves fighting and killing. No such thing as forcing the faith on anybody since Jews and Christians too had been known to live under the rule of Muhammad.

Unknown said...


Quran 18.86 sun setting in a spring.


The verse "setting of the sun مغرب الشمس" was mistranslated to "setting PLACE of the sun". The word PLACE was added by translators. It doesn't exist in Arabic Quran. This mistake contradicts context and Arabic grammar of the verse.

"Hatta in Arabic حتى" means "until" and is always coupled with time (not location). The word that does refer to location is "ila الى" which means "to" and is always coupled with a location. For example, "the boy went to school ذهب الولد الى المدرسه". You cannot say in Arabic "the boy went until school ذهب الولد حتىالمدرسه" because "until حتى" only refers to time. So in Arabic "until حتى" is always followed by time. If the verse "setting of the sun مغرب الشمس" is a location as skeptics claim then it should have been preceded by "to الى" and the verse should have read "الى ان بلغ مغرب الشمس" in that case the verse indeed would have meant the setting "place" of the sun; however this wasn't the case. The verse started with "until حتى" which only refers to time "حتى إذا بلغ مغرب الشمس". So "setting of the sun مغرب الشمس" is time of sunset (not a location). However it was mistranslated to the "setting place of the sun". The word "place" was added by translators.

In Arabic grammar all places and locations are referred to in the male mode. For example, "هاذا المكان"... Since the setting place of the sun is a location then it should also be referred to in the male mode however this was not the case. This verse ends with female mode: "he found at it people وجدعندها قوما" here "it ها" the Arabic is in the female mode; which means it refers to the muddy spring (عين حمئة female mode) and not to the "setting place of the sun" (male mode).

So both "until حتى" at the beginning of the verse and the female mode at the end prove that the translation was wrong.

Quran 18.86 simply says that Thu Al-Qarnain continued moving until time of sunset, while setting he (and his army) were in a muddy spring and there he found people...

So the sun setting in a muddy spring is just a mistranslation. Other mistranslations in the same story of Thu Al-Qarnein are: The word "saddain" in Arabic means "two dams" however it was mistranslated to other languages as "two mountains". Another word "sadafain" in Arabic means "two shells" however it was mistranslated also to the same word "two mountains". This suggests that translators were translating the Tafseer (not the original Arabic Quran).

The frequent mistranslation of the Quran presents wrong stories in other languages. Please always refer to Arabic Quran.

Richard said...

@satumacam I am well aware that the Sun and Solar system move about the Milky Way.

But it is abundantly clear that Muhammad (and the Quran, obviously authored by him), were not aware of that, or even what the Milky Way was - A Collection of Stars. They couldn't have been. He was just a 7th Century Arab. Quite a backward people compared to the civilisations around them, like the Greeks and Romans, who were aware that the Earth was round, at least.

It is absurd to suggest that the Quran was "miraculously" talking about the Sun's 225 million-year orbit around the Milky Way. It says very specifically in verse 36:37 it is talking about the day and night and the apparent orbit of the Sun about the Earth. He was not aware that this was caused by the Earth's rotation. And it says it's a sign for Allah for men. A sign for men is the day and night, not a 225 Million year orbit, which no men could observe or be around for it to be a sign for.

All the evidence in the Quran points to the fact that the author was observing the "heavens", not from the heavens, but from the Arabian Desert. The author states that the heavens are above the earth. Why? Because he was looking at the heavens from the Arabian floor and not from the vast space above or below. In the Quran, the sky is mistakenly referred to as if it were a solid structure that could fall upon the earth and crush people and things between them. There are verses upon verses which lead to these conclusions.

Salman Zafar Shaikh said...

I agree that 1400 years ago, mankind was not aware of the movement of the Sun in the Mikly way. Only God Almighty the Creator could have known this at that time. This is indicative of Qur'an being word of God. Qur'an has signs which will continue to be discovered as time progresses since the Qur'an is an eternal mircale, being the Final Testament for all times to come. I suggest read "The Bible, The Quran & Science" by Dr. Maurice Buccaille and watch the video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xLCxtUY9k4I

May God Almighty guide all to the best. Amen.

Richard said...

@Salman Zafar Shaikh "1400 years ago, mankind was not aware of the movement of the Sun in the Mikly way. Only God Almighty the Creator could have known this at that time. This is indicative of Qur'an being word of God."

But nowhere does the Quran talk about the movement of the Sun about the Milky Way. It only talks about the Sun moving around the Earth, which was an ancient mistaken belief. No "miracle" there.

Quran 36.37 "And a sign for them is the NIGHT; We strip it of the DAY and lo, they are in darkness.

Clearly it is talking about NIGHT and DAY. It is saying the NIGHT is stripped of the DAY and that is why it is darkness. The SUN is not present at night as even the Arabs knew. So what happens to the SUN at night?

According to the Quran, in the very next verse it tells us.

Quran 36.38 "...it runs to a fixed resting-place;..."

This "resting Place" we are further told is a Muddy Spring in another verse and several Sahih Hadiths.

What is the miracle there? The only "miracle", if you can call it that, is that you still believe that the Quran is not saying what it is clearly saying, the movement of the Sun during the day and it's disappearance at night, and try and believe it is saying something that it is clearly not even hinting at saying.

The Milky Way is visible to the naked eye and the Quran could have clearly said the Sun moves about that. But it didn't. Instead, it says it moves around a flat Earth and sets in it, in a muddy spring. How very wrong.

So, far from proving that it is the word of God, it has proven, over and over again, that it is in fact, the word of an ignorant mqn.

satumacam said...

@Richard In the verses, the Quran was talking about pairs, day and night, and each represented by the sun and the moon respectively. There is no mention at all that the sun moves around the Earth. You are just adding your own interpretations again.

You say that the Arabs were backward people, well they were in that time until the Quran came and became the reference of several successful Muslim scholars of astronomy.

I think you are reading way too much of Quran instead of your own bible. Heavens above the Earth?The sky falling down upon the Earth? You are a Christian aren't you? Then you might know these verses.

Isaiah 55:9 "As the heavens are higher than the earth.."
Revelation 6:13 "and the stars in the sky fell to earth.."

Different than you, I don't ridicule these verses because it is one of the similarities that the Bible and the Quran have. Both are the words of God, but the Quran is preserved through unbroken lines of Huffazs since its descend.

They contain metaphors, and figures of speech which sometimes might turn out as something that is literally true. The words of God won't give up point blank solid evidence of truth because our lives on earth is a test of faith. May we all be guided.


Richard said...

Correction - "So, far from proving that it is the word of God, it has proven, over and over again, that it is in fact, the word of an ignorant mqn."

That should be "So, far from proving that it is the word of God, it has proven, over and over again, that it is in fact, the word of an ignorant MAN.

@razi anwer - I have dealt with the lengthy explanations by Muslims, who willfully shut their eyes to all evidence (and there are mountains of it) - that the Quran cannot be anything but the creation of Muhammad, of how this verse 18.86 does NOT essentially say- THAT THE SUN SETS IN A MUDDY SPRING.

Translators have added "the setting PLACE" not because they felt like it, but because this was the SENSE OF THE SENTENCE - the idea it is wanting to convey. The word is "Maghriba" مَغْرِبَ, which is translated variously as "West", or the setting place, (the morphology is place not time) depending on the sense in which it is used in the sentence, according to the Quranic Lexicon.

In any case, how can a man reach the sunset? The sunset is always on the horizon far away.

And even accepting the explanation that the word "place" should not be there, it goes on to say "he found it SETTING IN a muddy spring" - What could be more clear and explicit than that?

Then to make things even more clear in verse 18.90 it goes on to talk about THE RISING PLACE of the sun. maṭliʿa - rising place.

As an aside - the Quran is claimed to be a guidance towards humanity - what great lesson for mankind do these verses deliver? What about the alternate explanation - that their only purpose is to confirm verses 36.37 and 36.38 and various Sahih Hadiths?

And talking about guidance for mankind - can you, or Salman Zafar Shaikh, or satumacam, tell me why Allah wants 1/5th of the booty captured in war from infidels? (8.41) . It would make no sense for a God who has created everything to covet the women and possessions of infidels, but it would make a lot of sense for a conquering, greedy and lustful man to desire all these things and to try and win over his followers with promises of booty, which he does in no less than 15 verses of the Quran.

It seems to me the Quran is a guidance towards mankind, but not a very moral or noble one.

Qaisar said...

Lets stay on with the surah 18:86, pointing out other so called errors or bringing in other unrelated statements seem to indicate you're running out of ideas Richard. I am a muslim revert and been practising this religion for the past 2 years. I have been a victim of black magic for many years and I can tell you that the Quran's description of the Djinns has been spot on mate. I have seen them in their native smokeless fire form and their capabilities are exactly the same as described in the Quran. No other holy scripture describes them as accurately as the Quran. That itself is an indication who authored the holy books across the world. I'm thankful to Allah that he guided me, and may he guide us all.

Now back to surah 18.86, The first time I read that line couple of years back and reading it again now, i dont seem to have any issues with that verse. It may seem to me that what lies in our hearts defines the verse above. Nuff said,

Good Day All!

Richard said...

@Qaisar Perashan "Lets stay on with the surah 18:86, pointing out other so called errors or bringing in other unrelated statements seem to indicate you're running out of ideas Richard."

I have stayed on surah 18:86 "Maghriba" مَغْرِبَ, = "West", or the setting place. All places not time. This guy travelled to a certain PLACE. There he saw the Sun setting IN (fī فِي) a muddy spring. Setting "taghrubu" تَغْرُبُ, a word used nowhere else in the Quran.

Quite clear and straightforward. All other explanations are lengthy, complicated and not convincing. He could never travel to the sunset horizon because the horizon is out of reach.

My statements are not unrelated as they point out other correlated errors in the Quran corroborating the same error, and other things that show that the Quran is clearly not what it is claimed to be.

If anything your claim of the Quran's description of the Djinns is unrelated to the argument. I don't know what the Quran's description of the Djinns is but it claims that shooting stars or comets guard heaven against Djinns 72.8

Unknown said...

Hi everyone, peace and God bless, according to more modern methods of linguistic translation and not Interpretation according to 3rd party narrators who's testimony is compiled 200+ centuries after the Prophet's mission to deliver the message, we've had this translation prior to 1990. Standards are set for a reason and none so is higher than God's. Seek and ye shall achieve God willing. For some of us in this world believe Zul Qar Nain to be of Egyptian decent. One of the Great Pharaoh's grandsons or great grandson I cant recall exactly who lead the conquest against the Moses/Israelites. Zul Qar Nain or Akhenatan reformed the kemetic pagan set up in Religion also a prayer devoted to a sole deity has been discovered, rather than many deities a trait of pagans, and then fled the lands that were soon perished due to the persistent disbelief along with his family and loyal subjects leaving his dynasty, from west to east he traveled cleansing the lands of evil only we can imagine. The Two Horned King...it is believed he fought on Mount Kalash in Tibet and defeated Shiva The Ifrit Jinn by sealing the main portal that was her throne and Mount Kalash has a pyramid within the mountain structure at its summit and within a crack of some concrete like substance did they discover this throne (Russian and Chinese Scientists). Somewhere the chu dynasty in china is mentioned being started by an outsider also after he saved them from system of human/demon oppression and enslavement. Check out the data and key words but this Chapter within the Quran reveals secrets about Gog and Magog, Yajouj Majouj or Yajouren Majouren if your chinese......

Chapter 18: The Cave (Al-Kahf)‎ ( سورة الكهف )‎
110 verses

Revelation order 69

18:86
When he reached the far west, he found the sun setting in a vast ocean, and found people there. We said, "O Zul-Qarnain, you can rule as you wish; either punish, or be kind to them."

٨٦:١٨
حَتّىٰ إِذا بَلَغَ مَغرِبَ الشَّمسِ وَجَدَها تَغرُبُ فى عَينٍ حَمِئَةٍ وَوَجَدَ عِندَها قَومًا قُلنا يٰذَا القَرنَينِ إِمّا أَن تُعَذِّبَ وَإِمّا أَن تَتَّخِذَ فيهِم حُسنًا

Richard said...

Ismail Ali - One of the many, many reasons the Quran cannot be from God, is that, according to the Quran, the Earth is flat. (It says so in no less than 10 verses, for example, “And God has laid the earth for you as a carpet,” 71:19). The Sun is a small flat disk, that rests for the night in a muddy spring.

18:86 - "until, when he reached the setting place of the sun, he found it setting in a muddy spring, and he found nearby a people...."

"maghriba" مَغْرِبَ , besides meaning west, means the place of sunset, as opposed to "Ghuroob" which means the time of the sunset.

"ʿaynin" عَيْنٍ - means a spring, not a vast ocean. In any case, there is no Ocean on earth where the sun can sink into since it is over a million times bigger than the Earth.
That this, says the Sun literally sets into a muddy pool and rests for the night, is confirmed by no less than 4 Sahih hadiths.

Salman said...

In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
The Verse you quote is translated as:
“And God has made for you the earth wide spread (an expanse)” [Nooh 71:19]
This indicates that it is spread out and shaped so that people can feel settled in it and be able to live and prosper in it.

In another place the Qur'an says:
“And the earth, moreover, has He made egg shaped.”
[Al-Qur’an 79:30]

Thus while the Earth is a giant slightly elongated Sphere, to a local observer, it appears spread out and habitable.

Early Muslim Astronomers even calculated the circumference of the Earth very accurately.

The other verse you have mentioned has already been explained in this form. It beautifully describes the sunset scene as visible to a human observer (the great conqueror ZulQarnain).

May God Almighty guide all to the Truth. Aameen.

David said...

My comment is a little basic and involves the belief that the all knowing Allah, if he is God, would know that the Earth traveled around the sun. The God of the 7Th Century would be no different to the God of the 21st Century as they one in the same. People in the 7th Century generally believed the Earth was flat, so from their perspective, the thought of the Earth setting into a muddy warm puddle made just about as much sense as any other option or alternative that anybody might come up with. So why did Allah send down Gabriel to tell Muhammad that the sun set in a muddy puddle. The obvious answer is he did not and that the muddy puddle scenario was actually made up by Muhammad or one of his scribes. In which case how many of the verses in the Qu'ran are false? It doesn't matter. One falsehood is enough to show the book is rubbish and all those indoctrinated souls have been had.

David said...

Sorry, I agree with Richard. If we believe God was the all knowing being that you say that he was, then the God of the 7th Century would be no less wise than the God of the 21st Century. They both would know that the Earth traveled around the Sun. I mean, you claim God created the Universe, don't you. So you would expect that God would have an excellent understanding of the wonder that he created. Man in the 7th Century generally believed the Earth was flat. So the Sun setting in a warm muddy puddle made about as much sense as any option that these people could come up with. So to believe that the all knowing God sent Gabriel down to tell Muhammad that the Earth actually sets in a warm muddy puddle. is rubbish. How many errors in the Qu'ran exist? It does not matter as if the Book was the word of God, then one error is all that is needed to debunk the authenticity of the so called author - the all knowing God. No doubt you cannot see the logic in that. I feel sorry for you. I do not want to hear the interpretation theory. The interpretation theory, simply for the means of justification, even upsets the Fundamentalists. The same Fundamentalists who gratefully acknowledge that Aisha was only 6 when Muhammad married her.

Salman said...

In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

The Verse you quote has been explained earlier. You seem to have missed those responses. It talks about what appears to the person Zulqarnain. Please see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwAYZjSvcpM for more explanation.

May God Almighty guide all to the Truth. Aameen.
Peace.
Salman

Adee said...

What ever it is i wont belive scientific finding of mass of sun earth the distance the size. As m sure at some point of time these will be updated by other findings. All this newton stuff is a bluff for me.

David said...

Yes quite true Adam. Science does allow for the finding of further truth in the future. But in saying that, just look how far it has come in the last 100 years. Who knows what we shall find in the next 100 years and what current truths will be revoked. Unfortunately, Islam, through the Qu'ran, wants to stay in the 7th Century AD. Everything the Qu'ran says is pertinent to the 7th Century AD when it was written. Therefore anything that has developed in Science, especially over the last 100 years, will tend to repudiate what is said in the Qu'ran because people's knowledge has expanded. God would know this already. I hope you find peace in your beliefs and that Paradise does exist for you. You have been told it often enough and prayed often enough to see your way in. Unlike in Islam,in Christianity, Jesus, died for us so we could enter Paradise. No doubt Jihad is always another means of entering Paradise for both you and your family.

David said...

Thank you Salman, I shall read over it a little more extensively.

Salman said...

Dear David,

You are welcome. Kindly also note that in the same chapter of "Kahf", a few verses down from the one you quoted, it talks of the Eastward journey of the the conqueror ZulQarnain, saying:

Until, when he came to the rising of the sun, he found it rising on a people ..

Similar to the earlier verse, this is showing what appears to this person Zulqarnain. Clearly God Almighty is not saying that Sun rises from people, just as He Almighty is not saying that the Sun sets in a Muddy spring. In both cases, the Qur'an is saying what appears to the observer - ZulQarnain and the language clearly alludes to this.

Also, you are correct - Islam does not believe in Jesus (peace be on him) dying for our sins. In fact Islam supports that Adam (peace be on him) asked God Almighty for forgiveness and was forgiven for the sin of eating from the forbidden tree. Even if he was not forgiven, in Islam, sin is not inherited as i have nothing to do with what my forefathers did. Further, in Islam a third person (e.g. Jesus, peace be on him) can not be killed for someone elses sin. In Islam, Jesus Christ, peace be on him, is one of the greatest messengers of Almighty God, born miraculously to virgin Mary (Read Chapter of "Mary" in the Qur'an), but if that makes him "biological son" of God, then why not call Adam son of God as he had no father nor mother? Finally, in Islam each one of us is individually accountable for our deeds. Further, "Jihad" means struggle, the highest of which is described by Prophet Muhammad, peace be on him as struggle against ones own base and evil desires.

May God Almighty guide all to the straight path. Ameen.

Thanks.

Salman

Unknown said...

Dhuqarnain was cyrus the great, the king of persia____he went to the west means the black sea and the east means the caspian sea____and his last journey was to the north means darial gorge which is in georgia (barrier of gog and magog means the the georgian military highway)____please visit there___https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76uaX1IzNKQ
and listen to his lecture______and for grammer please listen what muslim are saying___then dicide

Ibn Abdallah said...

#Salman in what universe Dahaha means "egg shaped?

Ibn Abdallah said...

#Salman Please read the tafsirs and arabic dictionary, and tell me how did you concluded that the word dahaha means "egg" or "egg shaped"?

Unknown said...

Salaam (Peace) to you all. Quran surah Al kafirun, please Google it and read the meaning. Allah (God) knows best.

Brother C.L said...

@ Ray Essop I have read it before.. what about it.. is there something people should get out of reading it?

Unknown said...

Hi Everyone.

Ex-Muslim here. Left Islam after studying it because found out too many ambiguities, errors and assumptions in it.

Now coming to this Muddy Spring case:

1) Why did an All-Knowing, All-Wise God talk about Zul Qurnain's perspective in the first place? Why not simply mention that he traveled to the West until the sun set? What was the point? To deliberately confuse neutral minded people, seeking the truth, to think that Quran has errors so that they up leaving Islam, and in eternal hell, just for thinking that if there is a God, He must be better than this?

2) Even if Zul Qurnain's perspective was so important, why not say something clear like " He thought it was setting in the muddy spring, but in reality it didn't ", or something like that?

Think about this very carefully. It was a seventh century. People would actually believe in myths like sun literally setting in a pool. So, why did God deliberately send a verse like this? Just to confirm their myths? What information in this verse, or in the verses in the surrounding context actually confirm that this is not literal?

3) The word " Wajada " ( meaning: to find, as in " he found it setting in a spring " ) is used twice in the verse. The second usage has to be literal, else wise it would seem ridiculous. So why must the first usage of the word be deemed metaphorical, but second literal?

If it is just because it would make sense, than that would be an presumption that the Quran is perfect and hence it can't contain errors.

4) The word " A'een " means spring. A spring is too small to be visible at the horizon beneath the setting sun. The setting sun would be miles away, and the biggest of springs would be too small.

Some Muslims translate the word as sea here. This is clearly wrong. The word for sea is " Bahr ".For ocean, " Baheera ". If Quran meant sea or ocean, why weren't any of these used instead?

5) In the phrase " He found it setting in a spring ", the word for " in " here is: 'fee'. ' Fee ' meaning in or inside, not behind. This is at best a poor description. Why not say " behind a spring ", since that agrees more with what it actually is in perspective.

Now one of the thinks Muslims try to use here, as well as in points (2), (3), and (4) above, is that Arabic is a poetic language. However, this in itself goes against the claim of divine origin. Why should God use a flawed language, in its flawed way, to deliver the ultimate and final message to mankind? It's ludicrous. God could simply have made his own perfect and clear language for the Quran, taught it to Muhammad, and let Muhammad teach this language to the people.

If that is too much, couldn't God have at least not spoken it poetically in order to avoid ambiguity? I've studied Arabic. You don't NEED to speak it poetically.

Unknown said...

(6) This Hadith:

https://sunnah.com/abudawud/32/34

Is graded Sahih in chain by Muslims themselves. Sahih means fully authentic. Muslims argue that though it is Sahih in chain, it is Da'if in Matan.

Da'if means weak.
Matan refers to the Hadith itself.

Let me make this clear. In Hadith, Muslims analyse two aspects of the Hadith:

The first is the chain of narrators through which it is narrated, the Sanad.
The second is the Hadith itself, the Matan.

Now in order for the Sanad to be Sahih, the chain of narrators should be complete, the narrators should be honest, with a sharp memory, and not be present in times or places such that it is impossible for them to speak to each other.

For the Matan to be authentic, it must not contradict Quran, other Sahih Hadith, laws of nature and common sense.

NOW, THE IMPORTANT POINT IS THAT MATAN ANALYSIS IS USELESS TO THOSE WHO JUDGE HADITH FROM A NEUTRAL POINT OF VIEW.

Why? Because it presumes that Muhammad was a Prophet and therefore any Hadith which appears false cannot be from him.

The fact that the Hadith is Sahih in chain is enough to make the argument.

What is also interesting to ask Muslims is this: If the methods used by Islamic scholars were very so reliable in marking the authencity of the CHAIN OR NARRATORS, then why did these methods lead into marking fake Hadith as Sahih in there chains? ( Because this isn't the only case where Muslims use the " Hadith is unauthentic " argument? )

If Muslims were to argue that the Hadith can have errors, and so many errors, this renders a Hadith literature [ which is integral for mainstream Islam ] to be untrustworthy as a whole.

7) If you look at the old tafasir, the ones during the first 400 years following Muhammad's death, virtually none of the major ones say this verse is metaphorical. In fact, they add details to the story in a literal context.

The dishonesty here lies is that Muslims don't quote these early tafasir when defending this verse. It's like they coincidentally just missed them all, or they know and are deliberately trying to hide these works' saying on the matter.

Why did these scholars conclude a literal interpretation? Didn't they know Arabic well? If they didn't, why do Muslims regard them as among the best scholars of the interpretation of the Quran?

Salman said...

One of the qualities of the Qur'an is that in every time and age, more of its miracles will get discovered. Thus as human knowledge evolves, we find how verses of Qur'an accurately describe stages of development of human foetus, Water Cycle, Big Bang origin of universe etc. etc. Clearly early Muslims could not get these meanings since science had not developed to the extent it has today. Similar could be the case in point. And God Almighty knows best.

Richard said...

Salman Durrani – Muslim excuses for errors in the Quran:

The quran does not say what it does because you do not know Arabic. (Most of those arguing do not speak Arabic either and are contradicting the authors of the Tafsirs who do.)

OR

The Tafsirs are false because they contradict modern science or historical knowledge, such as Alexander the Great being a Muslim, or that Abraham had anything to do with the Kaaba. http://excelsiorclasses.com/2017/05/30/abraham-build-kaaba-muslims-claim/

Salman said...

It is not just a matter of knowing Arabic. The point is that as human knowledge grows, more and more miracles of Qur'an are realized. E.g. verses which relate to Bing Bang origin of universe, may not have been interpreted as such until human knowledge found it. Similarly for Pharoh's body being preserved, Embroyology, Water cycle etc. etc. See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gC2_IMz9qcY

Richard said...

@Salman - surely you're joking Salman.

Firstly let me address embryology and the Quran/ hadiths.
Question. Is the Quran the first source to reveal information on embryology?

Answer: No, the same information on embryology found in the Quran was already known centuries before the Quran. It was mentioned numerous times by famous ancient Greek scientists Hippocrates, Aristotle and Galen. They are not quite accurate according to modern science.

The description in the Quran most closely matches that given by Galen. So not only did Muhammad plagiarise (ie copy) these accounts from the ancient Greek physician, but he copied the inaccuracies as well.

Question 2. Is the information on embryology in the Quran scientifically accurate?

Answer 2 - No!

Now let us address Prof Keith Moore and that Youtube clip you have referred to.

During the time he gave his testimony about Quranic embryology he was in the pay of the Saudis, getting mega bucks to make his statements. This is the statement he gave out in 1983 along with one Abdul-Majeed A. Zindani - "For the past three years, I have worked with the Embryology Committee of King Abdulaziz University in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia, helping them interpret the many statements in the Qur’an and Sunnah referring to human reproduction and prenatal development. At first I was astonished by the accuracy of the statements that were recorded in the 7th century AD, before the science of embryology was established."

He became a very rich man for his statements. However, that video you have referred to, contains one lie (among many others). It states that Prof Moore converted to Islam. He did not and remains a Christian, as per his own statement after he came back from Saudi. (Funny that don't you think?).

Moreover, now he refuses to give any more statements about the "miraculousness" of the Quranic embryology and refuses to be interviewed about his earlier statements.

All the other so-called "miraculous" "scientific" revelations in the Quran are appallingly stupid interpretations of vaguely useless pieces of text that wouldn’t have made any sense at all until they have been retrofitted and reinterpreted to coincide with some aspect of modern science.

Salman said...

Dear Richard all All,

Peace be on you.

First, please give your reference for the ancient Greeks knowledge of Embroyology and details of exactly how it matches with the Qur'an.

Second, please give reference / proofs of Prof. Keith Moore's retracting his statements on Qur'an agreeing with today's knowledge of Embrology.

Third, Prof. Keith is not the only one to comment on Mircale of Qur'an about embroyology. Dr. Maurice Buccaille before him has also done so. Kindly see his book "The Bible, The Qur'an and Science" and the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xLCxtUY9k4I&t=1s
This also shows pictures of fetus in womb of mother, taken by modern cameras and shows how amazingly it matches the Qur'anic descriptions.

May God Almighty guide all to the truth. Amen. God Bless.

David said...

Salman may the error of your ways not be a blight on your entry into Paradise. May the eight Giant Goats smile on you and not defecate on you as they have done on many who have achieved the seventh level of Paradise.

Doesn't the Quran say that the Moon travels between the Seven levels of Paradise? Look Salman, in all honesty the claims by Islam of all this rubbish is that Rubbish. Go and read the following article and stop looking for things that do not exist. If it makes you feel more comfortable then who am I to say what you are saying is rubbish.

http://www.foundalis.com/rlg/Quran_and_science.htm

May the truth eventually find you.

David said...

Richard very well said my man. I do like your style. You have a certain level of panache not found in most folk. Keep up the good work. The world needs more people like you.

Salman said...

Dear Richard,
Peace be on you and all.
Kindly give reference for what you say:
...the Moon travels between the Seven levels of Paradise?
I do not find any such saying in the Qur'an.
May God Almighty guide all to worship Him alone without any partners and obey all the Prophets including Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad (Peace be on them all). Amen. Amen. Amen.

David said...

Salman

I have the highest regard for David Wood and refer to his works on a regular basis. On the continuum of Islamic knowledge I listen to what he says. I have to say I always thought this verse 18.86 put the ding dong dell on the book being the pure word of God.

I also cite, what happened to the hafizes at the Battle of Yamama and the obvious loss of large parts of the Quran; the initial change in dialect from when Muhammad's time and to when it was actually written Muhammad western dialect and Quran in eastern dialect; the finding of the Sana'a parchment in Yemen: and Gabriel's reply to Muhammad written in the Quran as God's word Surah 19.64. This is enough to make me doubt the claim by Muslims that this book is what they say it is. I am sorry. Not forgetting that Muhammad was praying to Allah even before Gabriel came to him. The same could also be said about Ramadan. Muhammad was carrying it out before Gabriel spoke to him. But with all of this, I still come back to the Sun setting in the warm murky puddle near a people. I suggest you watch this if you have not already. I do not know who the person is but he has an advantage over myself and David Wood, he speaks Arabic fluently. His case is very compelling and If I was a Muslim, I would find it very difficult to attack his premise.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UVwizsojd1Y

I am truly sorry Salman, I think you and 1.6 billion Muslims have been had.

David said...

Salma

I almost forgot. Add what Uthman did as well. Why did he burn all the historical artifacts and all the other Qurans that existed at the time?

Salman said...

Dear Richard, David,

Peace be on you and all.

First, I am still waiting for your response to my request:
Kindly give reference for what you say:
...the Moon travels between the Seven levels of Paradise?
I do not find any such saying in the Qur'an.
I had also requested proof of your claim of Dr. Keith Moore's retraction about verses in Qur'an amazingly matching modern knowledge in Embroylogy. Kindly produce your proof.

Second, The verse about setting sun does NOT say: Sun was setting in muddy spring. It says'He found it setting in a muddy spring". This has been clarified before - this is how it appeared to the traveling observer - Zulqarnain.
I suggest read the entire Qur'an with an open mind. Also, did you watch the video I mentioned based on book by French surgeon Dr. Maurice Buccaille: "The Bible, The Qur'an and Science": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xLCxtUY9k4I&t=1s ?

Regarding Caliph Othman - when Islam spread geographically, he wanted only the standard Quraish Arabic dialect to be distributed. The Qur'an was written during the life of Prophet Muhammad, peace be on him and nothing is lost. Please produce your proofs to the contrary if you have. One miracle for Qur'an's preservation is that hundreds of thousands of people including those who don't understand Arabic are able to memorize it cover to cover!

Regarding use of name "Allah", it comes from combining "Al" meaning "The" and "Ilah" meaning "god". Thus "Allah" simply means "The God". Even the polytheists at the time of Prophet Muhammad, peace be on him used the word "Allah", but would associate partners with Him for worship. Prophet Muhammad, peace be on him advocated strict monotheism and also clarified that Jesus, peace be on him was a great Prophet and Messenger of Almighty God and did not ask that the people worship Jesus, peace be on him. The false believe in "Trinity" was apparently publicized by Paul and Unitarian Christians were persecuted when Roman rules accepted Trinity.

May God Almighty guide all to worship Him alone without any partners and obey all the Prophets including Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad (Peace be on them all). Amen. Amen. Amen.

David said...

Salman

Islam and Science I shall leave to Richard I have enough with the seven flat Earths, Seven domed, Heavens, the giant sea, the eight giant Goats all floating in space on top of a giant Numa WITH Allah sitting on top of the whole shebang. When you believe in something as strange and way out as that please do not try and attempt to bring science into the equation as you will look some what silly.You are dealing with a people of the 7th Century. A people who believed in the flat earth syndrome as mentioned throughout the Quran, Sunnah, Sira and all the Hadiths and Tafsirs in time memorial. You are correct it says he found the Sun setting in a murky warm puddle. Not only did he find that he found the place set as well. There is no element of "perspective" here. It all lies in the Arabic word for FOUND is wadajal. Wajadal can mean the following as well.
-أسس
found, set, plant, set up, establish, institute
وجب
necessitate, point, found, lead
أنشأ
construct, founder, form, found, institute, organize
سبك
cast, found

In the Arabic where does it say the word found or wadajal means "appeared to be" It doesn't. It is not until the middle of the 11th Century that Muslims, realising they were in deep trouble with this Sura, try to introduce "appears to be" as a possible alternative. 18 tafsirs refer to this Surah and accept it as is. It is the 19th Tafir who first actually questions it. Sorry Salman there is no argument on where the Sun sets with scholars, the only argument is whether the water is actually warm and murky. So if God says the Sun sets in a murky warm puddle then that is where it says. Hell Muhammad says the same thing. So you are now telling me I should ignore the word of God and Muhammad based on what you want to tell me it means. Some might call that blasphemy. I will not but some might. So we know God has erred on that verse.How many verses does he have to err on before we throw the book into the fire?

Now what about Surah 19.64?

David said...

Salman

Islam and Science I shall leave to Richard I have enough with the seven flat Earths, Seven domed, Heavens, the giant sea, the eight giant Goats all floating in space on top of a giant Numa WITH Allah sitting on top of the whole shebang. When you believe in something as strange and way out as that please do not try and attempt to bring science into the equation as you will look some what silly.You are dealing with a people of the 7th Century. A people who believed in the flat earth syndrome as mentioned throughout the Quran, Sunnah, Sira and all the Hadiths and Tafsirs in time memorial. You are correct it says he found the Sun setting in a murky warm puddle. Not only did he find that he found the place set as well. There is no element of "perspective" here. It all lies in the Arabic word for FOUND is wadajal. Wajadal can mean the following as well.
-أسس
found, set, plant, set up, establish, institute
وجب
necessitate, point, found, lead
أنشأ
construct, founder, form, found, institute, organize
سبك
cast, found

In the Arabic where does it say the word found or wadajal means "appeared to be" It doesn't. It is not until the middle of the 11th Century that Muslims, realising they were in deep trouble with this Sura, try to introduce "appears to be" as a possible alternative. 18 tafsirs refer to this Surah and accept it as is. It is the 19th Tafir who first actually questions it. Sorry Salman there is no argument on where the Sun sets with scholars, the only argument is whether the water is actually warm and murky. So if God says the Sun sets in a murky warm puddle then that is where it says. Hell Muhammad says the same thing. So you are now telling me I should ignore the word of God and Muhammad based on what you want to tell me it means. Some might call that blasphemy. I will not but some might. So we know God has erred on that verse.How many verses does he have to err on before we throw the book into the fire?

Now what about Surah 19.64?

Cheers the Shepherd

Salman said...

Peace be on you.
Where do you find in the Qur'an what you say:
he eight giant Goats all floating in space on top of a giant Numa WITH Allah sitting on top of the whole shebang.
I don't find it anywhere in the Qur'an. Perhaps you are confusing with some other book?

Keep the meaning of the word "Wajada" as "he Found it" as you mention. It can still, even in English mean that this is the way the observer saw it.

I am also still waiting for references of what was said earlier:
...the Moon travels between the Seven levels of Paradise?
I do not find any such saying in the Qur'an.
I had also requested proof of the claim of Dr. Keith Moore's retraction about verses in Qur'an amazingly matching modern knowledge in Embryology. Kindly produce your proof.

May God Almighty guide all to worship Him Alone without any partners and follow all the Messengers of God including Abraham, Noah, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad (Peace be on them all). Amen. Amen. Amen.

David said...

Salman Please stop with the Taqiyya We both know that there are other books bar the Quran, The Quran does mention the Seven Heavens doesn't it Salman? What about the Hadiths? You spend too much time defending a Book, which by all accounts, should not need defending. Doesn't that tell you something. Look in the Hadiths nfor the Goats.
You know they are there so why make me do this?

Sunan of Abu Dawood 2205, Narrated Al-Abbas ibn Abdul Muttalib – I was sitting in al-Batha with a company among whom the Apostle of Allah (peace be upon him) was sitting, when a cloud passed above them. The Apostle of Allah (peace be upon him) looked at it and said: What do you call this? They said: Sahab. He said: And muzn? They said: And muzn. He said: And anan? They said: And anan. AbuDawud said: I am not quite confident about the word anan. He asked: Do you know the distance between Heaven and Earth? They replied: We do not know. He then said: The distance between them is seventy-one, seventy-two, or seventy-three years. The heaven which is above it is at a similar distance (going on till he counted seven heavens). Above the seventh heaven there is a sea, the distance between whose surface and bottom is like that between one heaven and the next. Above that there are eight mountain goats the distance between whose hoofs and haunches (hip and buttock) is like the distance between one heaven and the next. Then Allah, the Blessed and the Exalted, is above that.

* The 8 giant mountain goats are themselves larger than any 1 of the 7 Heavens.

* These 8 giant mountain goats are apparently stationary, permanent features of the cosmology of the Heavens.

* The location of Heaven in Islam:

To be continued

David said...

Salman


Al Tirmidhi 1513, Narrated Abu Hurayrah – While Allah’s Prophet (peace be upon him) and his companions were sitting clouds came over them and Allah’s Prophet (peace be upon him) asked, “Do you know what these are?” On their replying that Allah and His Messenger knew best, he said, “These are the clouds (anan), these are the water-carriers of the Earth, which Allah drives to people who do not thank Him or call upon him.” He then asked, “Do you know what is above you?” On their replying that Allah and His Messenger (peace be upon him) knew best, he said, “It is the firmament, a ceiling which is guarded and waves which are kept back.” He then asked, “Do you know what is between you and it?” On their replying that Allah and His Messenger (peace be upon him) knew best, he said, “Between you and it are five hundred years.” He then asked, “Do you knew what is above that?” On their replying that Allah and His Messenger (peace be upon him) best he said, “Two heavens with a distance of five hundred years between them.” He went on speaking like that till he counted seven heavens, the distance between each pair being like between Heaven and Earth. He then asked, “Do you know what is above that?” On their replying that Allah and His Messenger (peace be upon him) knew best, he said, “Above that is the Throne, and the distance between it and the (seventh) heaven is the same as that between each pair of heavens.” He then asked, “Do you know what is below you?” On their replying that Allah and His Messenger (peace be upon him) knew best, he said, “It is the earth.” He then asked, “Do you know what is under that?” On their replying that Allah and His Messenger (peace be upon him) knew best, he said, “Under it there is another Earth with a journey of five hundred years between them,” and so on till he had counted seven earths with a journey of five hundred years between each pair. He then said, “By Him in Whose hand Muhammad’s soul is, if you were to drop a rope to the lowest earth it would not pass out of Allah’s knowledge.” He then recited, “He is the First and the Last, the Outward and the Inward, and He is omniscient.” (Tirmidhi commented that Allah’s Messenger’s recitation of the verse indicates that it would go down within Allah’s knowledge, power and authority, for Allah’s knowledge, power and authority are everywhere, while He is on the Throne, as He described Himself in His Book.)

Ahmad and Tirmidhi transmitted i

You have a nice day now.

What about Surah 19.64

David said...

Salman

Sorry you cannot run away with a flimsy answer over wajadal like you have. I am sorry in Arabic it does not mean (it appears to be)as you claim. So please stop saying that. It may make you more comfortable in relation to the Surah but you are wrong and you know it. As I said, if you think you are correct, why did it take 18 tafsirs to come up with a counter argument when the first 18 said it was correct? I am sorry

The Arabic for appears is nothing like found

ظهر
back, appear, show, manifest, surface, evidence
بدا
seem, appear, sound, ring, look alike, imitate
مثل
represent, appear, act, perform, symbolize, exemplify
اتضح
become clear, appear, clarify, transpire, brighten up, uncloud
رأى النور
appear, see the light
أصدر
issue, release, export, publish, emit, appear

So please cut out the deceit.

Salman said...

Dear David,

Peace be on you and all.

- First, Prophet Muhammad, Peace be on him, never claimed to be fully knowledgeable about the unseen and all the worldly affairs and is reported to have clarified this many times. When he talks about religion, it is inspired by God Almighty. But if it is worldly affairs, it may not be so. Similarly, the Tafseers are written by humans, and no human is infallible. But the Qur'an is word of Almighty God, who is All Knowing. And the Qur'an is what we are discussing here. I repeat my questions: Where does it say in the Qur'an when you claim that:
* The 8 giant mountain goats are themselves larger than any 1 of the 7 Heavens.
The eight giant Goats all floating in space on top of a giant Numa WITH Allah sitting on top of the whole shebang.
...the Moon travels between the Seven levels of Paradise?
I don't find these anywhere in the Qur'an. Perhaps you are confusing with some other book?

I repeat that keeping the meaning of the word "Wajada" as "he Found it" as you mention. It can still, even in English mean that this is the way the observer saw it. There is no need or benefit for me to lie. Will I get any money if you revert to Islam? I have a Doctoral degree in Electrical Engineering from an Ivy League school, and am not a "religious preacher" by profession nor dependent on donations for preaching (thank God). Rather it is benefit for you to understand the truth. But God Almighty has given you a limited free will, to test you and you are fully accountable on the Day of Judgement for your decisions.

I had also requested proof of your claim of Dr. Keith Moore's retraction about verses in Qur'an amazingly matching modern knowledge in Embryology. Kindly produce your proof.

May God Almighty guide all to worship Him Alone without any partners and follow all the Messengers of God including Abraham, Noah, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad (Peace be on them all). Amen. Amen. Amen.

God bless.

Salman

David said...

Salman

You are obviously a well educated man. I more or less guessed that already. As a well educated man, obviously taking advantage of the opportunities that Allah has given you, you should also be a man of reason.Unfortunately, I am not seeing that reason being produced here. Firstly, let me guess, this fixation with the Quran, at the expense of the Sunnah, Sira and Hadiths but especially the Sunnah, means you are most likely Shia.I have a problem with the Shia, unlike the Sunnah who live with the rubbish that is printed, the Shia tend to cherry pick They like to leave out the stuff which is unpalatable like,

1. Muhammad marrying a six year old. They will argue she was eighteen.
2. They find it disgusting that the "prophet" (I think calling him a prophet belittles other prophets - I cannot think of one miracle he ACTUALLY did of any note and please do not tell me about him splitting the moon)did his bodily functions in the middle of the street. That he actually urinated standing up - like an animal.
3. That he had relation with all his wives on one night and did not wash himself. Disgusting
4. That Muhammad was obsessive compulsive - his fixation on cleanliness, odd numbers, self grooming and other such symptoms.
5,The fact that he actually doubted the existence of previous prophets
6 That Alysha said he used to talk to imaginary things. Even his wet nurse said he did it as a strange little kid.
7. Then we have the date story. You know the one. Eat a date in the morning and you cannot be poisoned during the day. He obviously forgot to do that.
8 With out forgetting the mixing of the camel urine and the camel milk. Did you know there is actually a clinic in Egypt where that is available now.

Do I hear you correctly when you say the Tafsirs are just men. ARE JUST MEN. They are the scholars of Islam which the whole of Islam depends on and on their interpretation and translation skills. I do not see Salman Phd mentioned as a tafsir anywhere Was the Earth flat. you would say no the Earth is not flat. We all know that but back in the 7th Century they did not. Same God different century same big mistake. Sorry Salman.by the way Sura 88.20



Tafsir Al-Jalalayn
Verse 88.20

And the earth, how it was laid out flat?, and thus infer from this the power of God, exalted be He, and His Oneness? The commencing with the [mention of] camels is because they are closer in contact with it [the earth] than any other [animal]. As for His words sutihat, ‘laid out flat’, this on a literal reading suggests that the earth is flat, which is the opinion of most of the scholars of the [revealed] Law, and not a sphere as astronomers (ahl al-hay’a) have it, even if this [latter] does not contradict any of the pillars of the Law.

Shia want to tell us all Islam is a way of life, yet they want to pick and choose to suit their own beliefs. Stick to the Quran they say as it is not as messy.

Salman I am still waiting Surah 19.64


Salman said...

Dear David,

Peace be on you and all.

Now you seem to be jumping to a slew of new topics. You have not even answered my questions on your earlier allegations:
I repeat my questions: Where does it say in the Qur'an when you claim that:
* The 8 giant mountain goats are themselves larger than any 1 of the 7 Heavens.
The eight giant Goats all floating in space on top of a giant Numa WITH Allah sitting on top of the whole shebang.
...the Moon travels between the Seven levels of Paradise?
I don't find these anywhere in the Qur'an.

I had also requested proof of your claim of Dr. Keith Moore's retraction about verses in Qur'an amazingly matching modern knowledge in Embryology. Kindly produce your proof.

Also, I am not sure what you mean by waiting for Surah 19.64.

But in any case, let us first get your answers for your earlier allegations outlined above please. No point keeping throwing baseless allegations and jumping.

i believe what I said was clear: No humans are infallible, including scholars. Only God Almighty is free of errors.

May God Almighty guide all to worship Him Alone without any partners and follow all the Messengers of God including Abraham, Noah, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad (Peace be on them all). Amen. Amen. Amen.

God bless.

Salman

David said...

Dear Salman

I did answer your question. I agreed that the eight giant goats were mentioned in the Hadiths along with the seven flat Earths and the seven Heavens which are both mentioned in the Quran and the Hadiths. This was why I claimed you were probably Shia and not Sunni because you are fixated on the Quran at the expense of your other scriptures. I gave you a wide range of individual scriptures, from the Sunnah, which Shia find unpalatable. The comment was you see Islam as probably being a way of life. I find it strange why an educated person would think an Eighth Century ideology was appropriate to the 21st Century. Also, you will not find the moon going through the Seven Heavens in the Quran. You will find the splitting of the Moon in the Quran at 54.1-2 but where does it say Muhammad did it? One would have thought that the splitting of the moon would have been seen in various parts of the world by other civilisations and records kept of this momentous event. It appears no other civilisation saw this event claimed by Muslims and mentioned in the Quran. The fact is Muhammad was the only one who actually saw his so called miracles. He was a false prophet. I am sorry Salman. I suppose you do not believe he flew from Mecca to Jerusalem on the back of a winged donkey either (let’s not forget at the speed of sound)?
You, like most Muslims, keep telling me it is the word of God which has not been changed since its creation. Yet History has shown that there were definitely more than one Quran, and people were concerned about this as well they should be. So Uthman called for all the Qurans to be brought to him and he chose the current one, allegedly, to be God’s commands and burnt all the rest. Not only did he burn all the rest, he burnt all historical evidence on which the text had been kept. Strange to say the least.

You claim I have not replied to your questions on Keith Moore. I never raised the question of Dr Keith Moore. I think that was Richard and you are somewhat confused.

Surah 19.64 is an interesting one because I have been told it is Gabriel actually answering a question originally asked by Muhammad while communicating with the angel. That is the allegation anyway. If the Surah are all the alleged word of god passed onto Muhammad, why would a reply to Muhammad by the Angel be included in the Quranic text? It makes no sense. Well actually the whole book makes little sense.
You are born a Muslim, you are convinced by all around you that you are a Muslim. You are then thoroughly indoctrinated into the ways of Islam and before you know it reason has gone out the door and “fairy tales” are a “way of life”. All very sad really.
Salman May your problems be minor ones. May your cherries be fresh, your dates untainted and may the image you see in the mirror really be you.
Have a good day.

Salman said...

Dear David,

Peace be on you and all.

Thanks for clarifying that the 8 goats you mentioned are not in the Qur'an. I assume the same is regarding the moon traveling through 7 levels of paradise. Kindly clarify that this is also not in the Qur'an as originally suggested.

Yes it may be Richard who suggested Dr. Keith Moore retraction on his statements of amazing information in Qur'an matching latest Embroylogy. Richard kindly produce proof of this retraction you allege.

There are accounts of splitting of moon observed elsewhere on Earth including a King and his people in India. I do not have the details.

The miraculous night journey of Prophet Muhammad (Peace be on him) to Jerusalem was corroborated by his giving details of Jerusalem which were verified by others who had the knowledge and his witnessing the caravan on the way which later appeared. But miracles in general are beyond human intelligence and that is why they are miracles. There are other miracles also, including talking to animals, moving of trees, camel doing prostration etc. etc. but I don't have all the details.

Regarding following something from 1400 years ago, first of all, the Qur'an gives general guidelines and certain details due to new situations keep on changing. Secondly, perhaps just as a child grows taller to a certain height and remains that for the rest of his life, God Almighty send several Prophets and scriptures and when humans achieved sociological maturity, the final testament came. Let me ask you a counter question: If following a guidance from 1400 years ago is outdated, why do people claiming to be Christians want to follow a guidance of 2000 years ago?

I ask you and all to pray: May God Almighty guide me, you and all to the truth with all goodness. Amen. Amen. Amen.

David said...

Salman Sorry, you are the one with the fixation on the Quran. If you go back I am sure the reference is to your scriptures not the Quran. I am sorry Salman you can save the accounts of others seeing the splitting of the moon, not once but twice, for those that are silly enough to believe BUT please do not tell me someone elsewhere in the world actually saw it happening. In 2010 a NASA Lunar Science Institute (NLSI) staff scientist named Brad Bailey said, "No current scientific evidence reports that the Moon was split into two (or more) parts and then reassembled at any point in the past. I ask the question, where in the Quran does it say Muhammad split the moon in two?
Salman if you believe in the miracles and if you genuinely believe Muhammad was the maker of miracles and the greatest man to walk the Earth (God help us all) then I go back to the date in the morning. If Muhammad told his supporters to eat dates in the morning and they cannot be poisoned on that day. Then you would believe that was true. I assume that would be the case. Besides that the doubting pagans ask him to perform a miracle and gave him a time frame and he couldn’t. No doubt you will have an excuse for that one.
You still have not told me whether you are Sunni or Shia. Too personal heh! As far as your argument about either 1400 years ago or 2000 years ago, there is no argument from me. The same rules applies. The only major difference as I see it is that is one Book is claimed to be the total and unfettered word of God while the other is not. The problem is we see flaws right through the Quran. Irrespective, if the argument is that is not true, then all it takes on flaw. I have shown you that but you have unfathomable excuses because you just cannot accept that this could be a mistake. Rational people see it is a mistake. Irrational people and believers attempt not to see it that way. They question the Arabic translation. They question their own scholars or tafsirs and say they are simply men. A very weak argument.
Salman may your family stay well and Shatin keep far away from your house. May your kids play great soccer.

The Shepherd

Salman said...

Dear David,
Peace be on you and all.
- Let me clarify again: I am defending the Qur'an as word of God Almighty.
- I agree that all other books - which are compiled by humans can have errors.
- You have failed to show any proof of Qur'an being in error. The point of the Sun appearing to have set in a muddy spring has been explained as observer's perspective. This is also clarified by going down a few verses in the same chapter, where the same word "Wajada" or "he found" is used for Sun appearing to rise upon a people. This further makes it clear that "wajada" in this chapter is for the observer's perspective.
- Whether you believe in splitting of the moon and other miracles like stones speaking, people being cured, trees moving, animals talking etc. is your decision. But one living miracle of Qur'an TODAY is that God Almighty has promised to preserve it and you can find hundreds of thousands of Muslims who memorize every word of it cover to cover even when they don't know the Arabic language. Do you find this miracle with any other book today?
- Thanks for agreeing that all the points you made about goats and moon going through paradise etc. are not in the Qur'an.
- Kindly give me your reference to your claim of eating dates and not being poisoned. I have not seen it.
- You seem to agree that the current Bible is not 100% word of God Almighty as it has changed?
- You talk about being rational. Is the belief in Trinity i.e. Father, son and holy ghost all being gods rational? Do you expect God Almighty to go the restroom, relieve himself and wash his back side? These are irrational and falsely claiming that Prophet Jesus, peace be on him, one of the greatest of prophets (peace be on them all) claimed Godhood. Even in the current version of the Bible, there is no CLEAR statement of Jesus Peace be on him asking us to worship him or worshiping the "Holy Ghost" (which is really angel Gabriel), instead of only worshiping the Almighty God (Father).
Only God Almighty has the power to convince or guide you or anyone.
May God Almighty guide me and all to worship Him Alone without any partners and follow all the Messengers of God including Abraham, Noah, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad (Peace be on them all). Amen. Amen. Amen.
Salman

David said...

Dear Salman

May the eight giant goats of Allah smile down on you and yours.

So you are defending the word of God as shown to all and sundry in the Quran. Wonderful. As I have stated, every rational person would disagree with what you are saying about the Sun. I have already said that even your own scholars and tafsirs agree with the translation in the Arabic. As I stated earlier the only argument amongst scholars is whether the water was warm and murky. You brush all of that away by saying that further into the chapter that wajadal is used again and means perspective. You also argue that they were only men and can make mistakes but God does not make mistakes. Salman, let’s make it easy, WHO WROTE THE BOOK? Did God write the book? Who wrote the Book? Simple really. I do not think you can have it both ways. Then again, for a man with a PHD you are highly wishy washy. I am truly sorry but you just cannot say this, “This further makes it clear that "wajada" in this chapter is for the observer's perspective.” When did you become an ulama? I acknowledge that it is your right to read the Quran however you may please so that it appears to be much more palatable to you. Where it is not your right is when you are in argument with a critic. In other words who deemed you an expert in Classical Arabic – Eastern Dialect? You simply cannot say “this” therefore “that”. Unfortunately, that is what Muslims, like yourself, tend to do. I am sorry Salman – I shall not accept that.
I am sorry but memorising the Quran in a language other than your own language or even in your own language, is not a miracle but rather an act of stupidity. If those people spent that time better educating themselves rather than rote learning Arabic verse, of which 80% would not understand, then perhaps the levels of intelligence in the Islamic world might rise. The Islamic world may actually achieve something because it has achieved very little over the last 1000 years or so.
Islam talks about the flight of Muhammad to see the Gates of Hell (where I believe he states the majority of people entering are women – I am sure women would like that) and he also goes up through the seven Heavens describing what he sees as he goes and then speaks with Allah and convinces him to cut the praying from fifty times a day to five times a day. Is that correct Salman? Excuse me but who makes the decisions in Islam? Does Allah make these decisions or does Muhammad? When you consider that 16% of Islamic scripture revolves around Allah and 84% around Muhammad then we perhaps get a better idea of whom is most important. To be continued.

David said...

Dear Salman - continuation

By the way have you read this little ditty?
"A fantasy story, told about Muhammad's night journey, a tale of his ascent through the seven levels of heaven and meeting with Allah to reduce the number of daily prayers from fifty to five mentioned in the Qur'an and Hadiths coincidently can also be found in Zoroastrian literature. From The Book of Arda Viraf in the ancient Pahlavi script, the Zoroastrian story describes the journey of Arda Viraf who because of his piety was chosen to journey into heaven. Whilst in a trance his spirit travels to the other world under the guidance of an angel named Srosh across the Chinvat Bridge. He passes from one region (star, moon, sun, etc) to another until he meets Ahura Mazda, God of the whole universe, who shows him the souls of the blessed living a perfect life. He is then taken to Hell where he sees the suffering of the wicked. On completion of his visionary journey, Arda Viraf is told by Ahura Mazda that the Zoroastrian faith is the only suitable and true way of life and that it should be spread and preserved among the people of the earth.
Tends to be a great deal of sameness there doesn’t there. Remembering that the Quran and other Islamic scriptures were written a great deal later than the Bible, Torah and in the Book of Arda Viraf. We tend to see too much of these “occurrences” don’t we Salman? As far as dates go?
Narrated AbuHurayrah
Allah's Messenger (peace be upon him) said, "The ajwah dates come from Paradise and contain a cure for poison; truffles are a kind of manna and their juice is a medicine for the eye."
Tirmidhi transmitted it. (Tirmidhi Hadith, Number 1127; Alim CD-Rom Version)
Narrated Saud:
The Prophet said, "If somebody takes some 'Ajwa dates every morning, he will not be effected by poison or magic on that day till night." (Another narrator said seven dates). (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 71, Number 663)
Narrated Sad:
I heard Allah's Apostle saying, "Whoever takes seven 'Ajwa dates in the morning will not be effected by magic or poison on that day." (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 71, Number 671
Narrated Anas bin Malik:
Allah's Apostle never proceeded (for the prayer) on the Day of 'Id-ul-Fitr unless he had eaten some dates. Anas also narrated: The Prophet used to eat odd number of dates. (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 2, Book 15, Number 73)

Salman I wonder how many times you hear the number seven being mentioned in relation to Muhammad before the words obsessive compulsive are raised. I have no doubt the man was obsessive compulsive. You'll be interested to know that an Islamic study into obsessive compulsiveness found Muslims twice as likely to be diagnosed.

Salman may your heart be pure and your cat come home in the morning Do not let your wife pat the neighbour's dog unless she is wearing gloves. A definite no no.

Anonymous said...

Huh!? Are you serious!?
Who does not say - the sun is setting in the sea. That was even a thing for the artists, for a time ! I mean, you dare say Qur'an is not clear because of that !? Take the simplest and done - no contradiction. He saw the sun setting in the spring. That's a real-life experience, how unreal can you get !?
That's old history we are dealing. What we know of history is thing that is preserved and recorded and your assumption is not based on any and it's bias. No context at all.
1. Mary could have a "model" sibling. (A noble and respected person)
2. Aaron being a prominent figure of bani'israel and Mary, you who descended (among the offsprings of this tree), from this respected lineage (as if commemoration), how could you (Mary) have done such a thing. That was a comment done by the tribe of Mary and is recorded in the Qur'an accordingly. Just after sister of Aaron, the spotlight, the next verse talks about her parents (good being too). From sister of Aaron to mentionning of her parents, that was a comment contrasted from her seeming shameless actions. That is so clear. I mean, not everyone understand the Qur'an in everything (you need pondering as the Qur'an says), but that is something so straightforward !!

David said...

Anonymous I'll keep it simple for you. It does not say the sun sets in the sea. It says it sets in a spring. As the largest spring in the world is found in NZ , we are more or less fairly sure it does not set there. The fact is, as with the pot of gold at the end of a rainbow, you can never get to it. So not only did he find the the place the sun set, he found it setting in a spring. Sorry the people who wrote the Quran got that one incorrect. Men did write the Quran didn't they Anonymous?

Salman said...

Dear David,

May Peace and guidance be on for you and all.

It has been mentioned before to you that sun setting in muddy spring is how it appears to an observer, and that it why it says "he found it ...". If you don't want to accept this simple explanation, it is your choice.

Regarding Hadith about dates, first, there is no claim that hadith are 100% correct. Second, there is no claim that any Prophet was 100% knowledgeable about Science. The claim we are making is that Qur'an is word of God and 100% correct.

Third - yes I do find it believable that God Almighty can take Prophet Muhammad (Peace be on him) miraculously to heaven and have the 50 prayers reduce to 5 while giving it the importance and reward of 50.

What I don't find believable is that Jesus (peace be on him) is God or biological son of God or should be worshiped. I don't find it believable that God would come as human and go to the bathroom and wash is back side etc. This is what I don't find sensible. Nor the believe in Trinity.

To you your choice and to me mine. I don't have the time to keep repeating the argument.

May God Almighty guide me, you and all to the truth. Amen.

Unknown said...

The Quran knows about the orbits of Sun and Moon which is mentioned in verse 21:33. In the story of Dhual-Qarnain, its said from the perspective of Dhual-Qarnain that he saw the Sun set in a muddy stream. These verses about 'muddy stream', 'wall between mountains' and 'no protection' against the Sun, etc, provides geographical clues to the likely place where Dhual-Qarnain travelled. The below link to the post reviews these verses.

https://topicsfromquran.com/2018/09/22/zal-qarnain-dual-qarnain/

David said...

Unkwon I am sorry but that is not true I believe it is Allah and his Prophet know best.What do they know best? There is no argument here. As soon as you begin to change God's word to suit the Islamic narrative, you are committing blasphemy.

Kaz said...

So many brainwashed christians interpretating of the quran lol

Muhammed follower said...

https://youtu.be/vwAYZjSvcpM i hope this is an answer for all brainwashes Christians..they are not looking for hard facts ..but they are consistently making these hard facts into their own illusion ideas. ...it's like making a true statement false by doing long debates by avoiding all real meaning

David said...

No Muhammed that is not true. What we are pointing out to you, and you will not accept it because your whole world will come tumbling down, is that Allah does not want you interpreting what he is saying for us. If Allah says the sun is setting in a puddle then that is what he means. He, the deity who created the universes and all that exist within them, does not expect people like yourself to interpret his book for us. Also, where I come from the God of the 7th Century is the same god of the 21st Century so that God would not have made a mistake like that. So when you see a mistake like that you know it is man made. The scribes made the mistake, Muhammed. That is not the only mistake in the Quran there are others. It was not until the 11th Century that Tafizes realised there was a problem with that verse. Why? In the 7th Century people realised the Earth was flat. So apparently did Allah. Now how did he not know the Earth was not flat when he created it? By the way the Quran is written in the more popular eastern dialect - classical Arabic. Muhammad spoke the western dialect to Mecca. Oops another problem. We lost 400 hafizes at the Battle of Yamama - another problem. Hafizes claimed parts of the Surah they forgot; that parts of other Surah were left out and some Surah were left out altogether. Oops. So Uthman collected all the artefacts and the other Qurans and burnt them all so there was only one - the Uthman Codex. More OOPs. Then we have the Sana'a manuscript out of Yemen. The oldest know relic of the Quran and x rays show that there is an earlier copy underneath. Much more oops.

I am sorry Mohammed the book is fraught. If you spent just as much time researching the history of the religious scripture and looking into the life of Muhammad in Medina rather than Mecca you might have a better understanding of your religion.

You have anice day now.

David said...

Salman

I know you are a busy man so I shall keep this short.

1. Why would Allah even bother discussing anything with a mere mortal? I would think there would be more than enough to do in the universe than argue with Muhammad over how many times the "ants" on the Earth have to pray.I think that is very narcissistic of Muslims. Being "chosen" doesn't mean you are still not an "ant" in the general tone of things.

2. I would have thought the angels of Allah, like Gabriel, would be able to go anywhere in Jannah. They are God's angels for Heaven's sake. Yet Gabriel could not go to the Lote Tree but Muhammad could. Rubbish.

3. Speaking of Gabriel, when did Gabriel replace Muhammad's claim that he had been attacked by demons on Hira?

May your passage be full of tests, Muslim.

Salman Zafar Shaikh said...

Dear David and all,

May Peace and guide of Almighty God be on you and all. Amen.

The issue of sunset in muddy spring has been answered before.
THE WORDS IN THE QUR’AN ARE TRANSLATED AS “HE FOUND IT SETTING…” THUS THIS IS THE APPEARANCE OF SUNSET TO A HUMAN OBSERVER

Not sure what you mean by how many times the "ants" on the Earth have to pray. I haven't seen this in the Qur'an.

You may have thought Angels can go anywhere. But your limited thoughts are not what determines God Almighty's wish.

Regarding deamons of Hira you mention, again I have not read anything like this in the Qur'an. Not sure what your sources are.

Qur'an is preserved in its entirety. The Gospel of Jesus (Peace be on him), is no longer present in its original error free form.

God bless.

David said...

Salman, glad tidings to you.

You say in the previous reply, "Qur'an is preserved in its entirety. The Gospel of Jesus (Peace be on him), is no longer present in its original error free form." What a lot of codswallop. The Uthman Codex is simply the form of the Quran that was allowed. Uthman called for all other versions of the Quran and burnt them. Not only did he burn them, he also burnt the artefacts with Surah written on them. If we look at the Sana'a parchments out of Yemen, x rays show that there were other verses underneath - in other words a draft. We know over 400 hafizes ded at the Battle of Yamama taking with them God's word. We know the Quramn was written in the Eastern dialect of Medina and not the western dialect of Mecca and Muhammad. We also know hafizes came out and said that they either forgot Surah; Surah were deliberately left out; or only part of the Surah made it in. We know all this from your scriptures yet you have the cheek to tell us "The Quran is preserved in its entirety..." - RUBBISH.

As far as the muddy puddle goes - just more muda'rat my friend for the following reasons

a. No need for a translation. Once you have a translation you no longer have a preserved Quran. Why would Allah need a mere mortal to interpret his word? Sorry I found that blasphemous. Not only did he see where the sun set in a puddle it states he actually got to where it set. Again Muhammad supports this in the hadith.The Quran can't quite get it correct.
It would be like what the Quran says about where man came from. Three goes and they are all different.
You bring your religion into the west then you have to expect more scrutiny.

Stay well Salman. May you meet all your tests in glory and may your have success with your dawah.

Artie Whitefox said...

God will never say that the sun rises from a muddy pool. That would be one hot muddy pool. The earth would have been burned up, long before the sun got to a muddy pool. God was not talking through the person. Muhammad was therefore giving commentary, on what Satan said, not God.

Artie Whitefox said...

What is happening is this. God's enemy, the fallen Lucifer, is observing the reflection of the sun in water, thinking the sun is in the water.

David said...

The Quran is not God's enemy Artie. It is God's book as revealed through Muhammad. That is if you believe the fairy tale. So what you are saying Artie is that you know better than Allah and Muhammad. Is that what you are saying, Artie? What happened to Allah knows best? Now it seems all Muslims have to walk around saying Artie knows best. Sounds kinda blasphemous to me Artie.

Salman Zafar Shaikh said...

In the name of God Almighty, Most Gracious Merciful.
The entire scene described by God Almighty is from the perspective of an observer on Earth and it states: "he saw it (Sun) setting in ...". It do NOT say "Sun sets in ...".
May God Almighty guide us all to the Truth. Amen.

David said...

I am sorry my friend but I cannot agree with your summation. It was not taken from a perspective at all. That is your interpretation. It amazes me that Muslims have a textual approach when it suits them and then, when there is an apparent problem, a contextual approach to the Quran. It says "he reached the spot where the Sun set" it does not say he observed the Sun setting Look it was written in the 8th and 9th Century and Malik got it wrong. Also, remember that Muhammad says the same thing in the Hadith. On this occasion God did not know best and that is why Muslims adopt a contextual approach.

Salman Zafar Shaikh said...

In the name of God Almighty, Most Gracious Merciful.
Dear Brother David,
1) Perhaps you did not carefully read my message:
The Qur'an states: "he saw it (Sun) setting in ...". It do NOT say "Sun sets in ...".
Also, if we go by your quotation:
"he reached the spot where the Sun set"
Reaching the Sunset location can simply be a westmost accessible land point to him at that time. Of course you have every right to reach your conclusions and so do I.
2) Hadith can have errors. Furthermore, Prophet Muhammad (Peace be on him) never had the full knowledge of Science, nor claimed to have it. In fact he claimed to the contrary. His message about religious affairs is from God Almighty. But his message about worldly affairs may not always be correct. He is Not God Almighty He is simply a human being with limited knowledge. Only God Almighty has full knowledge.
And God Almighty knows best.
May God Almighty guide me, you and all. Amen.
P.S. Can you please quote what the Bible says about Earth, Sun and their movements etc.? Thanks.

David said...

Dear Salman

My friend again you are interpreting the word of God. I really do not think that is your job. You simply cannot translate the Quran so that what you are reading actually makes sense. For you to go ahead and do that , you are saying that there is a problem and it needs to be fixed. You are not the first. I believe the tafsirs first saw there was a problem with this in the 10th Century. Prior to that it was all okay.

2."Hadiths can have errors" Yes all Hadiths are weak and can have errors. Anything written two hundred to two hundred and eighty years after the death of Muhammad i 632 CE is fraught with errors and has to be deemed weak,. My observations are that Muslims deem them weak if they are negative towards Muhammad and strong if they are positive. Name me one transmitter or reciter for any of the hadiths please. The whole Sunnah, Sira etc are all weak and probably not worth the paper they are written on.

I appreciate that you say Muhammad is not God Almighty and I concur. Yet my observation is that many Muslims treat him that way. Remember under abrogation they want to follow in his footsteps and not Allah's

As far as the Bible goes, I agree there are errors all the way through it BUT, and this a big BUT, it does not make the claim the Islam makes about the Quran, its wordage and its preservation. So going to the Bible is pointless as we accept its flaws. Islam does not accept the flaws in the Quran and that is the problem. We both know there are flaws in the preservation narrative. Behind closed doors, scholars have been discussing this for years. Remember the 8th June 2020. The truth was revealed and apologists and scholars went nuts.

Look Salman, I have reached the stage where I do not believe that Mecca existed in the time of Muhammad. It does not show its face until the mid 8th Century. Why? That was when it was officially made a sanctuary. Earthquakes and political upheaval to the north meant the move took place. I also believe the Saudis are well aware of this otherwise they would not allow the historical buildings, like Khadija's home, to be knocked down. They know all right that is why they would not allow archaeologists to dig prior to the sky scrapers going up. Funny isn't it. We see sky scrapers going up which might be perceived by some as idols and then we have Muslims at the Kaaba trying to kiss a black stone. Sounds a little like idolatry to me.

Salman who had a mother called Amina? Who had a wife called Zaynab? Who had a wife called Aisha? For a man of your learning that is an easy one. May God protect you in your quest and make your pathway to Jannah a safe one.

Salman Zafar Shaikh said...

In the name of God Almighty, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
Dear Brother David,

-I am quoting to you translation of Qur'an for the Verse in discussion.

-Islam does treat all Prophets including Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad (Peace be on them all) as Humans and hence limited in knowledge, even though they were the best of humans and brought God Almighty's message to be followed. Only God Almighty is perfect and all knowing.

-I don't see any issues with the Qur'anic verse under discussion. It is clearly describing the perspective of a Human - ZulQarnain seeing sunset.

-Thanks for accepting that the Bible has errors. On the current subject for example, it says:
“The sun rises and the sun sets, and hurries back to where it rises.” (Ecclesiastes 1:5)
Psalm 19:4-6
New International Version (NIV)
4 Yet their voice[a] goes out into all the earth,
their words to the ends of the world.
In the heavens God has pitched a tent for the sun.
5 It is like a bridegroom coming out of his chamber,
like a champion rejoicing to run his course.
6 It rises at one end of the heavens
and makes its circuit to the other;
nothing is deprived of its warmth.

Muslims believe that the current Bible is an erroneous version of the pure teachings of Prophet Jesus (Peace be on him).

May God Almighty guide me, you and all to the Truth with all goodness. Amen.

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David said...

This shall be interesting as it appears You Tube has terminated me because they have accused me of hate speech. Rubbish to the extreme. They just do not agree with what I am saying.