Wednesday, November 9, 2011

Qur'an Error: Does the Sun Set in a Muddy Spring? (Surah 18:86)

According to the Qur'an (18:86), a man named Dhul-Qarnain reached the place where the sun sets. When he got there, he found the sun going down into a muddy pool. Muslim apologists commonly reinterpret the passage, but only because they're ignoring Muhammad's commentary.



Since Muslims in the West claim that science confirms the Qur'an, we should work diligently to explain to them what the Qur'an says, and how Muhammad obviously interpreted it. The following two quotations, when used together, are devastating and unanswerable:

Qur’an 18:83-86—And they ask you about Dhul-Qarnain. Say: “I shall recite to you something of his story.” Verily, We established him in the earth, and We gave him the means of everything. So he followed a way. Until, when he reached the setting place of the sun, he found it setting in a spring of black muddy (or hot) water. And he found near it a people.

Sunan Abu Dawud 3991—Abu Dharr said: I was sitting behind the Apostle of Allah who was riding a donkey while the sun was setting. He asked: Do you know where this sets? I replied: Allah and his Apostle know best. He said: It sets in a spring of warm water.

For more on Muhammad, the Qur'an, and the setting of the sun, here are some articles:

INTRODUCTIONS:
Sam Shamoun, "Muhammad and the Sun's Setting Place"
Cornelius, "The Sun in the Muddy Pool and the Prophethood of Muhammad"

LONGER WORKS:
Sam Shamoun and Jochen Katz, "Islam and the Setting of the Sun"
Martin Taverille, "Dhu’l Qarnayn and the Sun Controversy in the Qur’an: New Evidence"

In case you missed the first entry in this series:

90 comments:

Fisher said...

If we accept the view that Alexander the Great is Dhul Qarnayn, you come up with two more problems:

1. Alexander was a pagan, not a believing monotheist.

2. He could not have reached the place where the sun sets because we know from secular history that he expanded his empire eastward, not westward.

Fisher said...

By the way, I could argue that there is a fourth option: Salvage the reinterpretation by rejecting the hadith from Abu Dawud as spurious. But then the burden of proof is on the Muslim to show why he thinks that hadith is unreliable, and provide some kind of positive confirmation of the reinterpretation from some other hadith or tafsir source.

Gary Rumain said...

Brilliant, as usual.

D335 said...

YO DAVID:

Howbout a video idea ^^

Yusuf Ali on Quran 14:4
We sent not a messenger except (to teach) in the language of his (own) people, in order to make (things) clear to them. Now Allah leaves straying those whom He pleases and guides whom He pleases: and He is Exalted in power, full of Wisdom.

in which means every language, every culture, every nation got their own Islamic prophets!

IN EXAMPLE:

Islamic messenger of Japan:

Prophet Mitsubishi married 9 yrs old Maria Osawa, fathered little suzuki and big brother honda. Too bad, Suzuki committed harakiri by suicide bombing and maria became a geisha.
You can look at Japanese Quran of Engine specification and handling manual. It is originally in Japanese and must be read in Kanji!

Oh yeah, what's Allah name in Japan? SUDHOKU!!!
---------------------------------
Islamic Messenger of Jamaica:

Prophet Marley first name Bob loves to wear women' clothes while getting inspiration in the cave! He doesn't approve gay, yet wore an eyeliner, condemns pork and believe semen came from the back bone!
Allah's name in Jamaica is Al-Al-Al-Long... (A La La Long de long long long)

Here's a video clip of Allah by the inner circle:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNnJD_Tyl7Y
----------------------------------
Islamic Messenger of Swedeen.

Prophet ABBA, with 4 cannonical hadiths from Anni-Frid "Frida" Lyngstad, Björn Ulvaeus, Benny Andersson and Agnetha Fältskog.

The prophet led an army of dancinq queens through europe and the rest of the Disco world; Conquering each land, forcing them until they establish regular record playing 5 times a day, pay for the songs and CDs willingly while they are humbled.

Allah's name in Sweeden would be:Beowulf!
----------------------------------

D335 ^^

CL Edwards said...

David do not forget the glorious Quran teaches the earth is stationary and the Sun revolves around it...here a Muslim provides 17 proofs for this plus if you read in the comments below his post you see various fatwa's declaring this great "truth"

http://abuaaliyah.multiply.com/journal/item/120/The_Earth_doesnt_Revolve_around_the_Sun-_17_verses_to_prove_it.

TAREK said...

Dear Dr. David,
"Oh boy bravo" sorry Doc. for my language

I don't have any word to explain my gratitude regarding the video about the sun set. I am very happy because I had asked the following question on this blog concerning this issue and i put a bet on it that time:

"Can anyone put a fridge in the bottle"?

The answer I got from Ms. Kim was "NO". So I would like to hear from her. Please Ms. Kim make up you mind and come to CHRIST JESUS. We love you.
As you said in the video, the sun is 1.3 million bigger than the earth and Ms. Kim knows this very well.
Dr. David I'd be glad to see the same type of video with the title "Allah Prays"
I think this is the best way to let muslims see the mistakes of their book and with the Power of the HOLY SPIRIT they will reject it Chapter 4 Verse 82. I watched it on ABN but it is nice when you bring it up as a single topic

Well done Dr. David. I wish I had a lot of money in order to sponsore this work as well as ABN Jihadwatch ...etc on the large scale.

BTW Dr. when Sam and you going to have a show again at ABN?

MAY YAHWEH BLESS US AND COVER US THE PRECIOUS BLOOD OF JESUS. AMEN

CL Edwards said...

Check my post on the rotation of the Sun in the Quran, which teaches the earth is fixed and the Sun and moon rotate around it, in fact some of the Muslim clerics go so far as to accuse anyone who thinks the earth moves of being "ignorant". Yes Yes the glorious Quran full of amazing wonders!!!

http://www.callingmuslims.com/2011/11/another-quranic-blunder-quran-teaches.html

Osama Abdallah said...

Brother David Wood,

If the sun sets in a body of water, then it would have to rise back FROM THAT place
and set into another body of water, which the Glorious Quran never makes any mention of, and then rise from that body of water and set into the first body of water, and then rise back from that body of water and set into the other body of water, and so on....

There is onething that I am very appreciative to you and Sam Shamoun and the others about, and that is you help me, and the Muslims like me, to further expose the false hadiths that exist in our database/library of Hadiths, which is estimated around 2 million hadiths, I was told.

To the reader, there are 3 SCIENTIFIC MIRACLES in the Noble Verses that Mr. David Wood had brought up. Please visit: www.answering-christianity.com/sunrise_sunset.htm for more details. The article even has my debate with David Wood, which David never posted on his website about the Scientific Miracles in the Glorious Quran.

I want to invite you David, and Sam and the Christians who are reading this to study Islam more objectively, and not just judge it based on "hadiths", as if they are cut and dry history. They are not reliable history. Some of them are True, and some are false. You treat all of them as True. You also should know that Arabic is a poetical language, and sometimes you would have terms that are metaphoric and not literal.

Thanks!

Osama Abdallah
www.answering-christianity.com/sunrise_sunset.htm

TAREK said...

Dear Dr. David,

I think, Chapter 9 of the qu'ran is the last to be "revealed". So, why do we find abrogation in it? Please Dr. correct me if I'm wrong.

In chapter 9 verses 97, 99 & 101 What is going on, which is which?

Can any muslim explain what is going on in the desert please? And thank you in advance

MAY YAHWEH BLESS US ALL IN THE HOLY NAME OF OUR LORD JESUS AMEN.

cheryl_maree said...

Thanks David!!! Please give us more of these so called scientific miracles in the Quran, the Deen Show seems to think there are so many!

cheryl_maree said...

Why doesn't the muslim see this? Why do they continue trying to explain them away? Of course they say the Hadith you quoted isn't a trustworthy Hadith.

John 8:24 said...

Hey Osama,

When your argument was exposed on the "Who Killed Muhammad" post you did a disappearing act and you now reappear here? So it looks like you accept your defeat and acknowledge that Muhammad is a false prophet. So when you accept that your prophet is a false prophet what is the point in defending this Quran verse?

My Two Sense said...

Osama - "You also should know that Arabic is a poetical language, and sometimes you would have terms that are metaphoric and not literal."

You should know that English is a grammatical language. I think what you mean here is "Arabic is a poetic language", not "Arabic is a poetical language". I know what you meant though... at least literally (though maybe not metaphorically).

I have been frequently told that "The Koran only works in Arabic" and yet it is still translated into other languages. Certainly such an important book would have to go through some sort of extensive and intensive scrutiny before it was allowed into the hands of foreign speakers so that it "literally" said what it was supposed to mean without ambiguity (whether its content was literal or metaphorical... or ambiguous) But I digress...

It was my understanding that the Koran and the Hadith, are not "interpretative". David says that multiple times. Not so with the Hadith then?

So in this database of 2 million Hadith (which I am assuming is available on a website somewhere or public domain somewhere)? is it searchable by "truth" and "untruth"? Who "decides" whether it is "true" or "untrue"? Are you talking about a database on your website specifically or a website in the public domain?

"I want to invite you David, and Sam and the Christians who are reading this to study Islam more objectively, and not just judge it based on "Hadiths"..."

Leaving out the Agnostics and the Atheists again, are we? Shame on you. But I guess we aren't "People of the Book" after all.

"Study more objectively"... You mean read the Koran and Hadith and take it literally and not interpretively? I believe we are engaging in that activity already without your express invitation. Thanks though.

TAREK said...

Mr Osama, Please be honest with yourself and others (muslims) are you telling us that those who decided that the "sahih" True" are wrong and that you are right? Are you messenger send to come with the new interpretation? According to you if I curse Allah in my language He will not understand, unless I speak in arabic? Do you have a mirror in you house? Please try take some few minutes to look at yourself, then ask yourself the following question: Am I normal?
I spoke to you sometimes back about Allah praying you told me that it was wrong. Now let tell you that I have the clear information and it is true that Allah prays in the quran. Please Mr. Osama stop telling us lies. I visited your website it is full of lies and verses of the HOLY BIBLE taken out of context to suit you. Please be honest with yourself and others. Since you want to reject the explanition of your own "prophet muhammad", your muslims brothers may harm you take care please we love you.

MAY YAHWEH BLESS US ALL IN JESUS' NAME AMEN

Kim said...

I choose the Good Muslim option. If there seems to be a controversy in the Hadith, I'm not going to just leave Islam based on one little thing we misunderstand at the moment.

If we're going to use the Hadith to try and disprove Islam, then you'll find Hadith where Islam is clearly the 100% religion of God. There may be some things we don't perfectly understand 100% yet.

Until then, more research has to be done on this topic before we reach a conclusion!!!

Peter said...

I understand why many muslims are not able to understand many of the arguments against the Quran. A lot af the arguments against the Quran are based on a mode of thought that are simply alien to the islamic way of thinking. I understand that.

But I simply cannot understand why muslims cannot see the problem with Mary and Miriam in the Quran. It is so obvious that Muhammad thought that Mary and Miriam, the sister of Moses, are one and the same person, which they are definitely not. I completely understand why Muhammad would make this mistake, and it is a very human thing to do. But it shows beyond any reasonable doubt that the Quran is not the word of God. It is the word of Muhammad, a man who (in good and evil) was extraordinaire. Extraordinaire but human.

andy bell said...

Oh, no. There's a fourth option my friend. Kill David Wood.

You think the Mad Arab (pbuh) and his beastly followers would take the time to sit down and explain this scriptural foolishness in a calm and rational way?

Puh-leeze. The sword could win this argument in two seconds.

Oh, the rationalizer did a great video on how the quran believes that the earth is flat:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_FaNg_nxqns

Martin said...

Osama, your sunset_sunrise webpage you mention is refered to several times in the last link David provided in his post (quranspotlight) and thoroughly refuted therein

WhatsUpDoc said...

HA ha @D335 you are killing me. LOL

WhatsUpDoc said...

David you missed that Hadiths by Bukhari:

After the sun sets it goes under the throne of god, prostrates and ask permission to rise again.

Another one: at the last hour the sun will set his prostration will not be accepted by god and he will be order to go back on the last day the sun will rise from the west.

Another one according to Muhammad in another Hadith:

Every morning Allah decends to lower haven" is there anyone seeking forgiveness".

If Mohammad is correct than Allah can never leave once he descends to lower haven, early morning is a 24/7 event.

I am going to pretend that I am Zakir Naik. Here is my response:

At the time of revelation sun used to set in muddy water but god changed his plan after the death of Mohammad.

Another classical video by David. Bravo!!!!!!!

WhatsUpDoc said...

Some of the Muslims now say it Dhul Karnan is not Alexander the great by Cyrus the Great.

The evidence that Alexander the great was gay is becoming stronger therefore they are moving away from him LOL

CL Edwards said...

@ Kim @ Usama @ anymuslim

Does the earth rotate around the Sun or does the Sun rotate around the Earth?

CL Edwards said...

@ Kim The doors of ijtihad are closed, there is nothing for you to try to understand..you either agree with the understanding of the Salaf regrading these narrations or you don't, your Salaf were literalistic, they literally understood that the sun descended into a literal pool of mud, they literally believed the earth was stationary and the moon and sun revolved around it, they literally believed the sun went under the earth made sujood to Allah and asked permission to raise up in the east

It one thing to lie to others, its a whole other animal to lie to yourself.

andy bell said...

CL Edwards? I'm not sure if you are the same guy I saw on the ABN shows. But if you are........You rock bra!

I've seen every episode (the english ones of course). Can't get enough.

Come on guys. I want more Jesus or Muhammad. David, Sam, and Pastor Joeeeeeeee.

Samatar Mohamed said...

@CL Edwards

The answer to your question is neither. Because the earth revolves around the sun not "rotates" around the sun.

@David wood

What you do not understand David wood is that muslims generally agree that there are hadiths that are fallible unlike the Holy Quran which, the Allah (swt) promised to protect from corruption. However, if you show muslims a hadith that for example has scientific inaccuracies, then all you are doing is showing us the hadiths that were not actually uttered by Muhammad (pbuh). Lastly, remember that when you attempt to find errors in the Quran, that the quran is in a poetic language, meaning that not everything the quran says is to be taken for its literal meaning. I'm sure you must understand this because jesus (pbuh) spoke in parables in your bible as well. If you take everything literally, then you can disprove anything, but to truly disprove something, i recommend you use a sound method that takes certain things into account.

Baron Eddie said...

@ Osama Abdallah

Do you know Arabic language?

CL Edwards said...

@ Samatar why do you believe that?

CL Edwards said...

@ Andy Bell yea I have been on JorM, I agree it would be nice to do some new shows, but that's ABN's call.

Search 4 Truth said...

Hey guess what. Muslims get to pick and choose what to take literally and what to take figuratively! After all Allah has made the Quran so clear.

11:1 Alif, Lam, Ra. [This is] a Book whose verses are perfected and then presented in detail from [one who is] Wise and Acquainted.

6:114 [Say], "Then is it other than Allah I should seek as judge while it is He who has revealed to you the Book explained in detail?" And those to whom We [previously] gave the Scripture know that it is sent down from your Lord in truth, so never be among the doubters.


the excuses and logical fallacies never end. How convoluted and delusional people can be is absolutely fascinating!

Iconodule said...

Alexander the great, the guy who kept a copy of the illiad under his pillow. Do muslims seriously consider this guy (great conquerer though he may be) someone worthy of religious veneration?

Zack_Tiang said...

I am not completely surprised how Muslims will continue to deny the plain truth of this part of the Quran.
How glad and happy are they to trumpet that the Quran is infallible.

It is obvious that the Quran meant what it said regarding Dhul-Qarnain finding the sun setting in a muddy spring.
Since this is obviously false, then it is impossible for the Quran to be considered infallible.
And thus, Quran must, at the very least, be considered not free of errors.

Of course, the implication is too big to only affect a part(s) of Islam.

Fernando said...

Just for the record: WhatsUpDoc is, as a matter off fact, Kim...

Samatar Mohamed said...

@search for truth

"Hey guess what. Muslims get to pick and choose what to take literally and what to take figuratively! After all Allah has made the Quran so clear. "

Again my friend, you have to be consistent yourself. I already posted some time earlier that the Old testament said the God is not the author of confusion, yet the father decides not to inform the jews he constantly punishes for not obeying him that there are actually two other persons beside him that make a triune God. Not to mention that jesus (pbuh) always talks in parables throughout the old testament, which the people had a hard time understanding. Now in answer to your question, i have asked many arabs, and they have all told me that it was not to be taken literally as setting in a muddy spring. They tell me that it is pretty obvious that it is not to be taken literally because of the term wajada that is used meaning that it appeared to Dhul qharnain as if it was setting that way. That is the problem with trying to translate the amazing language of the quran my friend.

@CL Edwards

get to your point.

search 4 truth said...

@ Samatar.

Yeah and having sex with captives while one or both of you is married is not adultery either! I understand. And by wonderful language , in Islamic definition does wonderful translate to ambiguous, vague, and incomprehensible?

Ok now for consistency.

par·a·ble   [par-uh-buhl] Show IPA
noun
1.
a short allegorical story designed to illustrate or teach some truth, religious principle, or moral lesson.
2.
a statement or comment that conveys a meaning indirectly by the use of comparison, analogy, or the like.

Ok what is the meaning or principle behind describing the sun setting n a pool of murky water?

So you spoke to some Arabic speaking people who gave their uninformed subjective opinion without consulting YOUR prophets sunna and scholars? LOL! Excellent research you have done. Let's go to Ibn Abbas the companion and first cousin of your false Prophet.And read what he Mohamed himself said. And then you can begin your logical fallacies and denial of fact and your greatest scholars!


* تفسير Tanwîr al-Miqbâs min Tafsîr Ibn ‘Abbâs
{ حَتَّىٰ إِذَا بَلَغَ مَغْرِبَ ٱلشَّمْسِ وَجَدَهَا تَغْرُبُ فِي عَيْنٍ حَمِئَةٍ وَوَجَدَ عِندَهَا قَوْماً قُلْنَا يٰذَا ٱلْقَرْنَيْنِ إِمَّآ أَن تُعَذِّبَ وَإِمَّآ أَن تَتَّخِذَ فِيهِمْ حُسْناً }

(Till, when he reached the setting place of the sun) where the sun sets, (he found it setting in a muddy spring) a blackened, muddy and stinking spring; it is also said that this means: a hot spring, (and found a people thereabout) these people were disbelievers: (We said: O Dhu'l-Qarnayn!) We inspired him (Either punish) either kill them until they accept to believe that there is no deity except Allah (or show them kindness) or you pardon them and let them be.



Abu Dawud’s report:

4002. It was narrated that Abu Dharr said: “I was riding behind the Messenger of Allah while he was on a donkey, and the sun was setting. He said: ‘Do you know where this (sun) sets?’ I said: ‘Allah and his Messenger know best.’ He said: ‘IT SETS IN A SPRING OF WATER (fa innaha taghrubu fi ‘ainin hamiyah).’”

Now are your Arabic speaking friends greater scholars that them? I mean you have got to be kidding me. How willfully ignorant can one individual be?

Please tell me the meaning behind telling a parable about the sun setting in a muddy pond and why did Mohamed lie to this man? the mind is a terrible thing to waste, on Islam!

Baron Eddie said...

@ Osama Abdallah

I did not hear from you!

This is very important ...
And something new ...

All old Islamic school (Basra, Madina, Kufa) explain it as the sun going into a hot water/muddy well.

It is not like a claim that you are standing in front an ocean!

In the Surah it says "تَغْرُبُ فِي عَيْنٍ حَمِئَةٍ وَوَجَدَ عِنْدَهَا قَوْمًا" It is a well

And by that place "so it a location an found people near that place ...

-------------------
In verse 84 "إِنَّا مَكَّنَّا لَهُ فِي الْأَرْضِ وَآتَيْنَاهُ مِن كُلِّ شَيْءٍ سَبَبًا"

Ibn Kathir explains "that Dhul-Qarnain journey is under the guidance of Allah "متبعا فيها العلم (فاتبع سببا.

so these verses is not only seeing the sun visually but it is under Allah's guidance

--------------------

Notice in the Quran it says "Wajada"/found and not "Raaha"/saw

in the Arabic dictionary part 2 page 1013 it defines Wajada = to be Aware of and understand

So he found the sun going into the muddy well! It is a place where the sun went into

=====================
Here is the new thing

Mohammed in Surah 18:86 copied this idea from Pre-Islamic Poetry "
الشعر الجاهلي" !!!

This belongs to a poet by the name أمية بن أبي الصلت Ameya Bin Abi Alsalat

Download his book here

http://www.mediafire.com/?zabkuankf9bpqtk

look in page 36 and I underlined it where it says the same thing that Dhul-Qarnain found where the sun goes in the muddy well!

My Two Sense said...

Kim - "Until then, more research has to be done on this topic before we reach a conclusion!!!"

By "more research" I am assuming that you mean anyone else except the people on this blog or Dr. David Wood...

and by "we" you mean you. Scratch that. By "we" you mean the plural of you and everyone who "agrees" with you.

So is the Koran and Hadith to be taken literally or metaphorically? Do you admit that there is some ambiguity, not just in a translation, but in the text itself? It seems like you do when you say:

"There may be some things we don't perfectly understand 100% yet."

Welcome to the world of "revealed" religions.

Zack_Tiang said...

Samatar,

You said, "because of the term wajada that is used meaning that it appeared to Dhul qharnain as if it was setting that way."

If you would actually study the passage in question again Quran 18:86, you'd notice that wajada appears TWICE in that verse...

Transliteration of 18:86:
"Hatta itha balagha maghriba alshshamsi wajadaha taghrubu fee AAaynin hamiatin wawajada AAindaha qawman qulna ya tha alqarnayni imma an tuAAaththiba waimma an tattakhitha feehim husnan "

And practically all English translations agree wajada is to be translated as 'found', not 'appear'.

http://www.searchtruth.com/chapter_display_all.php?chapter=18&from_verse=86&to_verse=86&mac=&translation_setting=1&show_transliteration=1&show_yusufali=1&show_shakir=1&show_pickthal=1&show_mkhan=1&show_melayu=1
(and I re-affirm using Google Translate, by isolating both the Arabic words "wajada" in the sentence)

So... if we are to be consistent... does that mean Dhul-Qarnain also *metaphorically* found a group of people near this bed of water?
Or that a group of people 'appeared' to be there?

And then Allah told Dhul-Qarnain to either punish or treat these people who 'appeared' to be there?

Samatar Mohamed said...

@search for truth

"Ok what is the meaning or principle behind describing the sun setting n a pool of murky water?"

Not every statement the quran makes has to have a meaning or principle behind it my friend (take a look at your bible for instance). The quran is narrating a story through the eyes of Dhul Qharnain. The quran is not actually saying that the Sun set in a hot spring, but that it was the way Dhul Qharnain saw it. I don't know how much times i am going to have to repeat this to you before you get it. Next, you try to pin me by saying that it was how ibn saad understood it. You understand that there is a hadith where the prophet Muhammad (pbuh) says that his ummah cannot be wrong when they have reached a consensus on an issue. This hadith is showing that the ummah can make mistakes in areas of dispute.So if that is how he viewed it, then he has been proven wrong. But my point is that muslims in general say that the Quran is not meaning it literally. Next, you bring up that hadith but i already said in my earlier posts that we believe that there are hadiths that are fallible because of the error, or corruptions of human mind, but that the quran cannot be fallible because it is the word of god almighty. Lastly, you said

" the mind is a terrible thing to waste, on Islam!"

Yet you seem to be doing just that i guess. I encourage you and david wood, sam shamoun and others to continue studying and critisizing the Quran and Islam, i believe that with the will of Allah (swt), and studying with an open mind, that you will eventually discover the fruit and truth of Islam.

Baron Eddie said...

@ Samatar Mohamed

I guess you did not read my comment!

Dhul Qharnain story is stolen from
Pre-Islamic Poetry ... Surprise

I gave a link to the book that shows the poet who said it ...

You said "Not every statement the quran makes has to have a meaning or principle behind it my friend "

It sure does because that is from Allah and Allah knows best!

You say statament like this in the Middle East you could get killed my friend ...

Allah gave you the straight path ... do you remember?

هذا القرآن هو حبل الله المتين وهو النور المبين وهو الذكر الحكيم والصراط المستقيم ...

Nakdimon said...

Osama, can you answer one simple question. You talk about “false hadiths”. What are the criteria you utilize to distinguish between false hadiths and true hadiths? Does it have anything to do with “I like this so it’s true” and “this is blatantly wrong so it must be false”? If not, what are the consistent criteria?

Thanks,
Nakdimon

Zack_Tiang said...

Samatar said, "Not every statement the quran makes has to have a meaning or principle behind it my friend"

Samatar also said, "but that the quran cannot be fallible because it is the word of god almighty."

So, the Quran is the word (singular?) of Allah... but not every statement Allah makes need to have a meaning?

Very interesting thought, Samatar. Really is. You should think about it more.

-------

Samatar said, "But my point is that muslims in general say that the Quran is not meaning it literally."

So then, Dhul-Qarnain didn't literally found a group of people near this muddy spring..
and Allah didn't literally told him to either punish them or treat them?

Very interesting thought, again.

Search 4 Truth said...

@ Samater.

Every single thing you said is the exact opposite of reality.

I am not wasting my mind, I am using it in an attempt to reveal how convoluted Islam, and your logical fallacies are.

You said it was a parable. There has to be a purpose to say that they Wajada the sun, which translates to found the sun. What is the parable or meaning? Is Allah trying to deceive people? What is the parable? Why would he say it?

He did not have to be so descriptive. If i say i walked to the end of my street and I found my neighbors sitting on their front porch. We3 can conclude that I walked down the street and I saw my neighbors sitting on their porch.

Now if I say I walked to the end of the earth and I found the sun setting in a dirty pool of water. What else could it mean other than what I said? If it is not literal than what is the parable? And all of the hadith conclude he was being literal. You are in total denial or reality.

Quote "
Not every statement the quran makes has to have a meaning or principle behind it my friend (take a look at your bible for instance)."

Substantiate your claim. Why would Allah mention this clear scientific and grammatical error? What is the purpose? And all of your hadith point to the fact that it is literal. I havent encountered any hadith that take it as figurative. I find Islam to be so unreliable and illogical you have to throw logic and reason and integrity out the window to be a muslim. Redefining words, actions, and morality. It is insane. I feel bad for you.

Nakdimon said...

Samatar,

When Jesus speaks in parables it is obvious that he speaks in parables, because he makes hypotheticals, uses contemporary figures of speech etc to communicate to his audience. Also, we sometimes later have him explaining the meaning of those parables. Never do we have anything of the sort in the Quran. PLUS we have ahadith that are deemed “authentic” that prove that the interpretation of those verses in the Quran are indeed literal and not metaphorical.

But if what you are saying about ahadith such as the one on murky water is true then many questions should be answered:

1. What is your criterion for “authenticity” when it comes to ahadith?
2. Why should we, if we see a hadith that is part of your tradition, disregard an explanation of the Quran that, by all Islamic criteria, (assuming that those criteria are valid to begin with) seems to really come from Muhammad?
3. Why should we deem ahadith with “missing links” (people who are not mentioned in a chain) in the chain of transmitters unauthentic just because a person isn’t mentioned? For example: Would it follow that 7 generations from now if a person recounts 9/11 and forgets to mention a 4th generation transmitter that either the testimony is invalid or that the event never happened?
4. Why should we deem this verse about the setting sun as metaphorical and what is that metaphorical meaning of “setting in murky water”?
5. Why is Mary, the mother of Jesus, being called “sister of Harun” in the Quran, when she is many generations removed from Aharon?
6. Why does Muhammad claim in yet another authentic hadith that the custom of the day in Mary’s culture was that people would call others the brother of a pious person generations removed, while we see a completely different custom in the days of Mary, namely, that if people were generations removed, they would be called SON or DAUGHTER of the ancestor, rather than “sister” of “brother”?
7. If it was a custom to call people the sister of a pious person, why on earth does the Quran not call Mary the sister of Amram as well, rather than a daughter?
8. In light of the pervious questions, there is one other known Miryam in ancient literature that is coincidentally the actual the daughter of Amram as well as the sister of Aharon at the same time! Why do you think is it an illogical conclusion to think that the author of the Quran simply confused Miryam, the mother of Jesus, with Miryam, the actual daughter of Amram AND at the same time the actual sister of Moses?


Thanks!

Nakdimon

Kim said...

I love challenges like this. They're fun to investigate and in the end we understand the truth.

In the meantime...everyone just chill down and do your resarch.

Kim said...

Imam Al-Baidawi notes,

He probably reached shore of the ocean and saw it like that because there was but water at the furthest of his sight that's why He says "he found it set" and does not say "it sets". (Al-Baidawi, Anwar-ut-Tanzil wa Asrar-ut-Taw'il, Volume 3, page 394. Published by Dar-ul-Ashraf, Cairo, Egypt)



Imam Al-Qurtubi states,



Al-Qaffal said: It is not meant by reaching the rising or setting of the sun that he reached its body and touched it because it runs in the sky around the earth without touching it and it is too great to enter any spring on earth. It is so much larger than earth. But it is meant that he reached the end of populated land east and west, so he found it - according to his vision - setting in a spring of a murky water like we watch it in smooth land as if it enters inside the land. That is why He said, "he found it rising on a people for whom we had provided no covering protection against the sun." (Holy Qur'ân 18:90) and did not mean that it touches or adheres to them; but they are the first to rise on.

Al-Qutabiy said: Probably this spring is a part of the sea and the sun sets behind, with or at it, so the proposition takes the place of an adjective and Allah knows best. (Al-Qurtubi, Al-Game' le Ahkam-el-Qur'an, Volume 16, page 47. Published by Dar-ul-Hadith, Cairo, Egypt. ISBN 977-5227-44-5)

Imam Fakhr-ud-Deen Ar-Razi states,



When Zul-Qarnain reached the furthest west and no populated land was left, he found the sun as if it sets in a dark spring, but it is not in reality. The same when sea traveler sees the sun as if it sets in the sea if he cannot see the shore while in reality it sets behind the sea. (Ar-Razi, At-Tafsir-ul-Kabir, Volume 21, page 166)



Imam Ibn Kathir states,



"Until, when he reached the setting of the sun" means he followed a certain way till he reached the furthest land he could go from the west. As for reaching the setting of the sun in the sky, it is impossible. What narrators and story tellers say about that he walked for a period of time in earth while the sun was setting behind him is unreal, and most of it is from myths of People of the Book and inventions of their liars.

"he found it set in a spring of murky water" means he saw the sun according to his vision setting in the ocean and this is the same with everyone ending to the shore seeing as if the sun sets inside it (i.e. the ocean).
(Ibn Kathir, Tafsir-ul-Qur'ân Al-'Azim, Volume 5, page 120. Published by Maktabat-ul-Iman, Mansoura, Egypt)

I believe this is adequate to refute the missionaries' imposed interpretation. And to Allah is the Judgement in all affairs.


From www.call-to-monotheism.com

Taking 1 hadith out of context aint gonna cut it. Neither is making youtube videos with your own interpretation.

Search 4 Truth said...

@ Kim

One hadith? Have you read all of the evidence? You are in total denial of reality!

WhatsUpDoc said...

David I can not believe your ability to get to the smallest details. A wise man had said the devil is in the detail.

WhatsUpDoc said...

@Kim the series of these suras are based on when god realized that lot of people are asking questions to Prophet about Dhul Karnan. Therefore Allah decided to rehearse the Prophet so he can tell the inquiring public the truth about Dhul Karnan.

If what you are saying is true than the verse should simply end at a point that it looked to Dhul it was setting in the sea but that was not the case.

What about place of the sun rise and he found people there who had no protection from the sun. Please explain that to us while you are at it.

Kim said...

http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.com/2011/04/sun-sets-in-pool-of-slime-hadith.html

Kim said...

http://www.bismikaallahuma.org/archives/2005/mary-the-sister-of-aaron/

Dk said...

Personally I think the real issue with passages like these, is the OBVIOUS and CLEAR ambiguous nature of the passages.

Read Kim's supposed "tafseer" that is meant to "save" the day, and you can see the answers are all different, sometimes contradictory, and one virtually agrees with what David had said except says the muddy pool is the Sea.

Far from "resolving" the problem, Bass am only manages to enlarge the ambiguous content of such nonsensical passages by showing the incompetency of the commentators.

Book of God?

BOOOK OF GOD?????????????????

THIS IS THE BEST GOD HAS????????????

It's so EASY to be an Agnostic. =)

Notice the actual conclusion we should reach (what I have stated). Then notice how Kim frames this situation:

"oh it was inevitable studying stuff like this will lead us to the TRUTH of Islam, it was only one little problem, we have resolved it and found MORE of the glorious truth of my religion, there are no serious problems with my religion".

Right there are no serious problems with your religion because no one can make heads or tails out of the joke passages.

Oh by the way be consistent. Don't use science to "prove the Qur'an", and then when we point out passages that contradict science, it's "they should be reinterpreted non-literally".

Use the commentators to get you out of the crisis, but when we point out these same commentators don't make the same conclusions that you contemporary Muslims about the alleged "scientific" passages, now it's "oh they are not infallible" " we don't have to accept their interpretation".

And all the great scholars of Islam couldn't put back humpty together again...

Nakdimon said...

Kim, seriously. How can you quote Ibn Kathir, Qurtubi and all those scholars when we have an authentic narration from your prophet contradicting those personal views. It's one thing to promote a personal view of a scholar without a counter-citation from your prophet or them appealing to your prophet or his companions, but to actually overrule your prophet by citing scholars just because your prophet is blatantly wrong.... thats just intellectual suicide!

Dmitry said...

Dear Professor Wood,

can you say something against the argument that the Hadith you cited as proof is concidered weak?

Also another question if I may:

While traditional Sharia seem to clacifie rape as "zina" there is a sunnan abu dawud hadith that seems to contradict it: Book 38, Number 4366

http://muslim-responses.com/Biblical_God_Orders_Rape/Biblical_God_Orders_Rape_

Seems in this case no 4 witneses were required.
Bassam argues that this hadith is strong, can you say something about it since you never talked about this hadith.

sorry for my bad English and thank you in advance.

Richard said...

That the Sun sets in the Earth literally, is confirmed not only by the Quran 18:86 where it talks of Dhul Qarnayn travelling till he reached the "setting place of the Sun", but clarified by Muhammad to remove any possible doubt, in no less than 4 Sahih Hadiths:

Bukhari 6.326: ..The Prophet said, "O Abu Dharr! Do you know where the sun sets?" I replied, "Allah and His Apostle know best." He said, "It goes and prostrates underneath (Allah's) Throne; and that is Allah's Statement:-- 'And the sun runs on its fixed course for a term (decreed). And that is the decree of All-Mighty, the All-Knowing....' (36.38)

Muslim 1:297 “..the Messenger of Allah ..one day said: Do you know where the sun goes? They replied: Allah and His Apostle know best. He (the Holy Prophet) observed: Verily it (the sun) glides till it reaches its resting place under the Throne. Then it falls prostrate and remains there until it is asked: Rise up and go to the place whence you came, and it goes back and continues emerging out from its rising place and then glides till it reaches its place of rest under the Throne and falls prostrate and remains in that state until it is asked: Rise up and return to the place whence you came, and it returns and emerges out from it rising place and the it glides (in such a normal way) that the people do not discern anything ( unusual in it) till it reaches its resting place under the Throne. ..”

(This clearly shows that the Quran/ Muhammad believed that the Sun goes around a stationary fixed Earth. It also solves the problem - argued by Muslims - of how it rises from a different place where it sets in the Muddy spring - it "glides" to its "rising place" after being given permission by Allah, due no doubt to its "prostration")

Muslim 1:299, “..When the sun disappeared (from the sight) he said: O Abu Dharr! Do you know where it goes? He (the narrator) said: Allah and His Apostle know best. He (the Holy Prophet) said. Verily it goes and begs permission, for prostration (to Allah) and the permission is granted to it. Once it would be said: Return to the place whence you came, and then it would rise from its setting place…”

And AbuDawood 3991, which you have quoted.

Allah gets his cosmology badly wrong. AFTER he has created the Earth and all its plants and animals in 2 to 6 days (41:9 - 10) he creates the 7 heavens one on top of the other in 2 days and places the stars in the nearest heaven.

Unfortunately he also places the Moon in the midst of the 7 heavens, which places it further away than the stars! (71:15, 16 “"'See ye not how Allah has created the seven heavens one above another, 'And made the moon a light in their midst, ..") And like the Emperors New Clothes the Arabs all nod in unison - Yes Muhammad we can see all the 7 heavens - isnt Allah Great)

The Earth can hear and answer and choose whether to move or not, arbitrarily

41:11 "Then He turned to the heaven when it was smoke, [consisting of] rising vapours, and He said to it and to the earth, “Come both of you, to what I desire from you, willingly, or unwillingly!” ..They said, “We come, together with all those inhabiting us, willingly!”"

And so it goes on and on - this infallible word of Allah...

Sylwester said...

Wouldn't your third option be fatal for a Muslim? Punishable by death or something?

Richard said...

Osama Abdallah "Brother David Wood,

If the sun sets in a body of water, then it would have to rise back FROM THAT place and set into another body of water, which the Glorious Quran never makes any mention of, and then rise from that body of water and set into the first body of water, and then rise back from that body of water and set into the other body of water, and so on...."

No Osama Abdallah, the "Glorious Quran" says the sun rises from another place, but on the Earth.

Quran 18:89-90 "Then he followed a way until, when he reached the rising of the sun, he found it rising upon a people..."

This is confirmed by the Sahih Hadith Muslim 1:297 given in my post above where Muhammad says the sun "glides" to the place from where it rose and so the pattern is repeated every day.

Remember the "Glorious Quran" also says 36:37-38 "And a sign for them is the night; .. And the sun - it runs to a fixed resting-place; that is the ordaining of the All-mighty, the All-knowing."

The Quran confirms that the sun "rests" during the night in line with the beliefs of the time.

The Quran and the Hadiths are PERFECTLY CLEAR ON THIS MATTER. the sun is a small ball which sets in a muddy spring on the Earth. then it rests for the night (lies prostrate at the throne of Allah) seeking "permission" to rise again. This "permission is granted every day and it glides to its "rising place" and so the pattern is repeated every day.


Osama Abdallah "There is onething that I am very appreciative to you and Sam Shamoun and the others about, and that is you help me, and the Muslims like me, to further expose the false hadiths that exist in our database/library of Hadiths, which is estimated around 2 million hadiths, .."

But

1. These Hadiths are "Sahih" Hadiths already supposed to be "authentic". If you arbitrarirly reject some of these Hadiths, how can you accept ANY hadith?

2. They are also corroborated with the Quran and vice-versa

3. When you come across a scientific error in the Hadiths (of which there are very many) the only explanation you are willing to accept is that the Hadiths are wrong, even though there is corroborating statements in the Quran. You refuse to accept the immensely more plausible and obvious explanation that there is an actual error as it is consistent with the knowledge of the times.

4. Similarly when you come across the numerous scientific, historical, and logical errors in the Quran, the ONLY EXPLANATION you are willing to accept is that the interpretation is wrong, rather than the obvious and most likely explanation that the Quran is wrong, it is just a medieval human document with all the myths and errors of a backward medieval society and there is nothing “divine about it.

Arjun Sumarlan said...

86. Until when he reached the place the sun goes down, he saw the sun set [887] in the sea of black mud, and there he found a class of people [888]. We say: "Hi Dzulkarnain, you may be tortured or doing good [889] against them.

[887] The point: to the west coast where Dhu'l-Qarnayn see the sunset.

[888] He is the people who are not religious.

[889] that is by calling them to believe.

does not mean the sun is always immersed in the sea of black mud.
please see photo. and remember a lot of meaning in the Qur'an that the phrase figuratively. so please, do not always harmonize with the science of the Qur'an. because sometimes it's just a theory not science fact.

there is a black mud, black water. and when viewed it as a black mud.
and in the verse that describes what they look like.
see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Double_Green_Flash.jpg

Richard said...

@Arjun Sumarlan said...

I dont know what point you are trying to make, but you have not answered any of the points I have made.

The Quran says the sun has a "resting place". It sets in the Earth in a muddy pool. This is confirmed in 4 Sahih Hadiths. The Hadiths also say the Sun after setting in a muddy pool "slides" to its rising place and then rises every day.

This is not contrary to any unproven theory, but contrary to facts.

The Sun does not and cannot set and rise from the Earth.

This is just one of the numerous errors of the Quran which makes it consistent with a document produced by 7th century Arabs and not any very intelligent being.

Daniel 82 said...

Hi All,

I am a Christian and believe this argument is very weak.

Does the sun set in a muddy spring? Of cause not and it is clear by the verse in the Qaran

18:83 They ask thee concerning Zul-qarnain. Say, "I will rehearse to you something of his story."
Wayas-aloonaka AAan thee alqarnayniqul saatloo AAalaykum minhu thikran

18:84 Verily We established his power on earth, and We gave him the ways and the means to all ends.
Inna makkanna lahu fee al-ardiwaataynahu min kulli shay-in sababan

18:85 One (such) way he followed,
FaatbaAAa sababan

18:86 Until, when he reached the setting of the sun, he found it set in a spring of murky water: Near it he found a People: We said: "O Zul-qarnain! (thou hast authority,) either to punish them, or to treat them with kindness."
Hatta itha balaghamaghriba alshshamsi wajadaha taghrubu fee AAaynin hami-atinwawajada AAindaha qawman qulna ya thaalqarnayni imma an tuAAaththiba wa-imma antattakhitha feehim husnan

It means he came to a place where the sun set in a spring of murky water.

If I look went to a lake and described the sun setting in the lake. That would be an actual and visual description of what happened.

Seriously so called Christians concentrate on stronger arguments than this. You try to judge a muslim but how many of you have been in a mosque and met a real muslim?

How many of you have read the Qaran and learnt about the life of Muhammad?

Do these things first only then are you valid to make a comment on what and who a muslim truly is.

Tony Eka said...

If only the writer truly study astronomic, Sun is truly revolve around something that stationer.

Quran never said it was earth that stationary.. Keep an eyes an your heart open..

AD said...

David and others, I would urge you guys to get the exact arabic translations for the above verses and not depend on Sahih International or Pickthall or others.

Because for the verses:
18.85: { فأتبع سببا } سلك طريقا نحو الغرب .

and
18.89: { ثم أتبع سببا } نحو المشرق .

Google translate clearly mentions the words east and west. Again pointing at the fact that:
- He traveled east and reached the edge of the earth, and then travelled west and found the other edge
- The verse even uses the words 'he travelled until' he reached the setting & rising places of the sun - meaning - there was no more he could travel in that direction. Again hinting at the earth having an 'edge'
- So I wanted to know if the other verses referring to the 'setting place of the sun' actually have the word 'edge' in them in arabic. If they do - then that would be CONCLUSIVE PROOF that Quran talks of a flat earth model
Please look into it if you can...

- Lastly - notice how the verse 18.91 says - then we knew all we had to know about him - does this mean - then he had travelled all the world? This is also worth looking into for the authentic translation.

Richard said...

AD, the verse 18.85 of the Quran does not contain the words you have shown but merely فَأَتْبَعَ سَبَبًا (fa-atbaʿa sababan) which means 'so he followed a course or a way.

Similarly verses 88-89 say 'Then he followed a way until, when he reached the rising place (maṭliʿa) of the sun, he found it rising upon a people for whom We had not appointed any veil to shade them from it.'

This is clearly saying there is a setting place and a rising place of the sun.

This (Quran) was written at a time 1,000 years after the Greeks had discovered that the Sun does not set on the Earth and that the Earth was round.

The only erroneous thing that most of the Greeks and later Romans believed was that the Sun revolved around the Earth and not the other way round.

But the Quran clearly says that the sun stops and rests for the night, as I have pointed out, in verses 36:37-38:

"And a sign for them is THE NIGHT; We strip it of the day and lo, they are in darkness. And the sun -- IT RUNS TO A FIXED RESTING-PLACE; that is the ordaining of the All-mighty, the All-knowing."

There is no getting away from those two verses. The sun runs to its FIXED RESTING PLACE for the night according to the Quran.

Then its talks about the SETTING PLACE of the sun, which is a muddy pool and the RISING PLACE of the sun

And then there are no less than 4 Sahih Hadiths where Muhammad explains in great detail where the Sun goes at night - A MUDDY POOL, he says so.

It "remains prostrate" before allah till it is given permission to rise again and it then "slides" to its rising place and rises from there so that no one notices anything is amiss.

This will continue till the Judgement day when Allah will command the Sun to no more rise from the East but from the West.

These are just some of the absurd and unscientific things in the Quran there are literally dozens of others.

Besides these there are logical fallacies, historical errors, mathematical errors, just a complete hash more worthy of an ignorant school boy rather than the alleged creator of the Universe.

Chevalie said...

Chanses2
If anyone wants to be consistent, honest and sincere, please do read from this page:
http://www.biblestudymanuals.net/bible.htm

Matthew 26 fragment from 50 AD (called Magdalene Manuscript - an original manuscript - discovered 2 years ago) uses in its text nomina sacra (holy names) such as the diminutive "IS" for Jesus and "KE" for Kurie or Lord (The Times, Saturday, December 24, 1994). This is highly significant, because it suggests that the godhead of Jesus was recognised centuries before it was accepted as official church doctrine at the council of Nicea in 325 AD.

Read the proof of evidence, beyond a shadow of doubt, proving the Bible has not been corrupted.

Nabeel Alkhalidy said...

there is a very good rebuttal to David Wood by an Arabic and Quran teacher. I don't think David has a leg to stand on!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7DluJ5zIaI

Richard said...

Dear Nabeel Alkhalidy, I heard a bit of the so-called "rebuttal". I have heard the same arguments before.

Basically the argument is this:

Hey - the Quran doesn't actually say the the Sun sets (that is enters) the muddy / hot spring, it only APPEARED to set there.

If the Quran said the Sun entered the pool then it should have used the Arabic word for enter and not have said that the found the sun setting in a muddy spring after reaching THE SETTING PLACE OF THE SUN.

The argument fails on many grounds:

1. The Quran is talking about a very special place, namely, THE SETTING PLACE OF THE SUN

The apparent setting of the Sun into the horizon, which maybe a large body of water, is a daily occurrence quite unworthy of any special mention. This was a special place - a muddy spring where the Sun sets. Allah himself, according to the Quran, showed this person the way how to reach it.

After he had reached it, don't forget, according to the Quran, he continued onto THE RISING PLACE OF THE SUN

2. Can the sun be seen to APPARENTLY set in a muddy spring? Answer NO!

Why? Because the APPARENT setting of the Sun can only occur on the horizon, which is approximately 5 Km away for an average man standing on flat ground and much further if he was standing at a height.

Springs are small bodies of water in hilly or mountainous regions. So springs do not stretch to the horizon.

The surrounding areas of the spring are higher than the spring again cutting off the horizon.

There is thus no possibility of "apparently" seeing the Sun set in a muddy pool.

The only way the fellow could have "found" the Sun setting in a muddy spring was to have been pretty close by and seen it entering the spring.

3. That the Sun actually set on the Earth was a widespread belief in the seventh century and the Quran is consistent with this belief.

4. As pointed out by me above this verse in the Quran is backed up by no less than 4 Sahih Hadiths.

5. This further confirmed in the Quran when it says in verses 36:37-38:

"And a sign for them is THE NIGHT; We strip it of the day and lo, they are in darkness. And the sun -- IT RUNS TO A FIXED RESTING-PLACE; that is the ordaining of the All-mighty, the All-knowing."

When trying to defend errors in the Quran a favourite defence is - the translation is wrong.

In this case the man argues that if the Quran wanted to say the Sun entered the muddy pool it should have used the Arabic word for "enter".

In numerous places the Quran says the Earth is flat, surrounded by 7 domed "heavens". This is consistent with the old Babylonian myth which said the same.

However Muslims try and argue that the Quran actually says the Sun is round and shaped like an ostrich egg. I have debunked this also many times.

In all their elaborate and contorted arguments Muslims don't offer an explanation why, if the Quran wanted to say the Earth was spherical, it simply didn't use the Arabic word for sphere.

If you look at it with an unbiased eye, you can see that the Quran is simply a man made document, full of errors, promoting the wishes of a medieval despot and control freak posing as God almighty.

Nabeel Alkhalidy said...

Thank you Richard

you said "If you look at it with an unbiased eye"

I hope you take your advice. If it's talking about a "special place" as you suggest why doesn't the ayah say " The sun enters a dark pool of water" rather than saying that Dhul Qarnain reached a place when the sun was setting into a a dark pool of water.

I hope you know some Arabic so we can discuss this further.

Nabeel

Richard said...

Dear Nabeel,

I dont know any Arabic. Thus I have to depend on the translations of the Quran by Arabic experts and also a look into the translations of individual words from the Arabic lexicon, which is available online.

The Arabic translations may not be 100% accurate but they give a feel for the meaning of the verses. They are not 100% inaccurate either, in fact they are quite accurate and, so far as the general meaning is concerned, they can be considered reliable, trustworthy and unbiased. Specially since they are made almost entirely by Muslims.

That the Quran is talking about a special place, namely the setting place of the Sun, comes not from the translation but the general feel and context of the verses.

The apparent setting of the Sun is an everyday occurrence which is visible to everyone at sunset. The Sun appears to set into the Earth in the west. The ancient Greeks discovered this was not so and that the Earth was round but this was not generally known, specially to the ignorant Arabs of the 7th century. It was widely thought at that time that the Sun actually set into a flat Earth some place in the west. It was thought that if you travelled far enough to the west you could reach the actual place of the setting of the Sun.

Similarly if you travelled far enough to the East you could reach the rising place of the Sun.

The Quran talks about both these places.

That the Sun rose and set at different places was explained by Mohammed in Sahih Hadith Muslim 1:297

“..the Messenger of Allah ..one day said: Do you know where the sun goes? They replied: Allah and His Apostle know best. He (the Holy Prophet) observed: Verily it (the sun) glides till it reaches its resting place under the Throne. Then it falls prostrate and remains there until it is asked: Rise up and go to the place whence you came, and it goes back and continues emerging out from its rising place and then glides till it reaches its place of rest under the Throne and falls prostrate and remains in that state until it is asked: Rise up and return to the place whence you came, and it returns and emerges out from it rising place and the it glides (in such a normal way) that the people do not discern anything ( unusual in it) till it reaches its resting place under the Throne. ..”

The "resting place" of the Sun for the night is also talked about in the Quran 36:37-38, which is consistent with this Sahih Hadith.

Of course the Sun has no "resting place" and neither does it rest for the night.

This again sounds ridiculous today but was believable to the general populace of that time.

and in another Sahih Hadith Sunan Abu Dawud 3991— Abu Dharr said: I was sitting behind the Apostle of Allah who was riding a donkey while the sun was setting. He asked: Do you know where this sets? I replied: Allah and his Apostle know best. He said: It sets in a spring of warm water.

It was also not known how big the Sun was and was widely thought to be a small round object as it appeared to the naked eye. Thus it was entirely conceivable that it set into a hot spring.

That the Quran was talking about that special place where the Sun was thought to set into the Earth comes from the fact that the verse claims that Allah did many favours to this bloke Dhul Qurnain and "showed him the way" to "the setting place of the Sun". Nothing could be clearer than this.

There is no need to discuss the Arabic of the verse. I have addressed this issue and you have to think about and try and answer the points I have raised.

Regards

Richard

Kay said...


Well d'oh, it's a narration form 'Dhul-Qarnayn''s perspective --> "HE FOUND it setting in a spring of dark mud"

And when a person say these:

* i found the sun jump from a mountain (the way she/he sees it)
* i saw a star fall from the sky
* i saw the sun is drown in the sea.
* i saw the moon got shy, it hid behind clouds.

That's fine right? Well hey, people keep saying using that tone from early civilization to now, the modern age!
But that doesn't really mean the sun really jumps from a mountain and such.

Same goes with the next verse: when he came to the rising of the sun, HE FOUND it rising on a people for whom We had not made against it any shield (Al-Kahf [18:90])

~~

Anyway, when people said to you, I SEE stars in your eyes, do you really believe there are gigantic space matters coming from your cornea?

David Wood said...

Funny how all of the Muslims keep ignoring the fact that Muhammad himself gave the interpretation of the passage. Muhammad himself said that the sun sets in a pool of water. Metaphors mean something. What did Muhammad mean when he said that the sun sets in a pool of water?

BTW, when Muslims decide they can reinterpret anything that's obviously false in the Qur'an, they're opening the door for reinterpretation of other things as well. Perhaps when Allah tells people to worship him alone, he actually means people can worship whatever they want and they'll still get their virgins.

Kay said...

Errr,,, Abu Dawood collected 500,000 hadith (in comparison, al-Bukhari collected over 300,000 hadith). But it's nice to poke someones works when she/he did something say less accurate/understandable. It's like saying Einstein is a total idiot because he once proposed "a static universe", a model in which space is neither expanding nor contracting.
News flash: men are not perfect.


So when Einsten (just a man) had some errors in his works, should we reject all of his works entirely, or should we accept entirely? or do you have any other solution???


---
Hadith No. 3991 is classified as Shaz (Isolated) Hadith: Technical Meaning: Shaz Hadith is that Hadith wherein a comparatively less authentic narrator of Hadith opposes a more authentic narrator. This opposition may be either in Sanad (chain of transmission) or in Matan (text).

Compared to Sahih Bukhari:

Narrated Abu Dhar: The Prophet asked me at sunset, "Do you know where the sun goes (at the time of sunset)?" I replied, "Allah and His Apostle know better." He said, "It goes (i.e. travels) till it prostrates Itself underneath the throne.....................
(Book #54, Hadith #421)

http://www.letmeturnthetables.com/2012/09/weak-hadith-sun-spring-warm-water.html

~~~

And shall i remind you again that KORAN never says the earth is setting in a spring dark mud.
Quran said he (the guy named Dhul-Qarnayn') FOUND IT ....

Btw KORAN also says: "when he (Dhul-Qarnayn) came to the rising of the sun, he FOUND it rising on a people for whom We had not made against it any shield". Aren't you and your fella gonna make a new entry: Qur'an Error: Does the sun rise on a people ?

Kay said...

Anyway, when Quran describes something that God creates /stipulates, it goes as straight as these:

It is He Who stretched out the earth and placed firmly embedded mountains and rivers in it .. (Surat Ar-Ra‘d, 3)
And the sun runs [on course] toward its stopping point. That is the determination the decree of the Exalted in Might, the Knowing. (Surah Ya Sin, 38)
He is the Originator of the heavens and the earth. (Qur'an, 6:101)

~~~

You said "Perhaps when Allah tells people to worship him alone, he actually means people can worship whatever they want"

Umm, you see, we always refer to Quran (imagine hierarchy in law) and Quran has EXPLICITLY SAID in Surat Al Ikhlas; "He is Allah , [who is] One,Allah , the Eternal Refuge, He neither begets nor is born,Nor is there to Him any equivalent, as well as many other verses such as "17.23. Your Lord has decreed that you worship none but Him alone, and treat parents with the best of kindness.. (17.23)."

I don't think there are any hadith (shahih or weak) which dispute this.

David Wood said...

Wow. Are you inventing this as you go along? The Hadith is classified as SAHIH. If I can't trust even your SAHIH narrations, then we simply don't know anything about Muhammad.

Also, you act as if this error on Muhammad's part isn't important. But it is important. According to Islamic theology, Muhammad is the greatest interpreter of the Qur'an. If Muhammad believed that the Qur'an was saying that the sun sets in a pool, then that is the correct interpretation, according to Islam. For you to say Muhammad was wrong in his interpretation of the Qur'an means that you know more about the Qur'an than Muhammad.

And did you even read Qur'an 18:86? It says that Alexander the Great reached the place where the sun sets. This isn't talking about his point of view. This is Allah telling readers where Alexander went. So tell me, where does the Sun set. Obviously, it's some place on earth, since Alexander went there!

Richard said...

@ Kay "Well d'oh, it's a narration form 'Dhul-Qarnayn''s PERSPECTIVE --> "HE FOUND it setting in a spring of dark mud"

And when a person say these:

* i found the sun jump from a mountain (the way she/he sees it)
* i saw a star fall from the sky
* i saw the sun is drown in the sea.
* i saw the moon got shy, it hid behind clouds.

That's fine right? Well hey, people keep saying using that tone from early civilization to now, the modern age!
But that doesn't really mean the sun really jumps from a mountain and such."

Can you read? Comprehend? I have answered the claim that this guy Dhul Qurnain only APPARENTLY saw the sun setting in a muddy spring.

for one thing the sun cannot be apparently seen to set in a muddy spring. See above.

Do you have the slightest knowledge of science or facts? Does the sun have a stopping point or resting place for the night? (Quran 36:37-38 )

Kay said...

"If I can't trust even your SAHIH narrations, then we simply don't know anything about Muhammad"

Err, that's your problem.. bro.

Anyhoo, bear in mind that hadith indeed can be wrong/half accurate. After all, Hadith is not Quran which is specifically preserved by God. [ Absolutely, we have revealed the reminder, and, absolutely, we will preserve it] (another translation) We have, without doubt sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption) [Quran 15:9]

You see, Hadith (“News” or “Story”) is record of the traditions or sayings of the Prophet Muhammad.
And there are six categories of hadith Ṣaḥīḥ, Ḥasan, Ḍaʻīf, Mawḍūʻ (fabricated), Maqlūb.

"Also, you act as if this error on Muhammad's part isn't important"

errr where did i say that?? I said someone who NARRATED/REPLICATED his sayings might be wrong. It's understandable though, Can you imagine gathering 500.000 information during your life time? And guess what, as in Abu Dawood case, he was born in 817. Muhammad was born in 570. So just imagine how hard it was for Abu Dawood and other hadith compiler to do their noble work? That's why there are categorization of hadith based on its sanad and matn.

But if you are really desperate to get two-minutes of cheers and attention, why not exploit Ḍaʻīf/ Mawḍūʻ hadith?
I'm sure your fans will love it (pssst: they can't tell the difference)

Kay said...

Another hadith discussing the same issue:

The Prophet (peace be upon him) said to me: “O Abû Dharr! Do you know where the Sun goes when it sets?”

I said: “Allah and His Messenger know best.”

He said: “It goes until it prostrates beneath the Throne. Then it seeks permission and permission is granted to it. Soon it will prostrate and it will not be accepted from it, and seek permission and will not be granted permission. It will be said to it: ‘Go back where you came from.’ Then it will rise from its setting place. This is Allah’s statement: ‘And the Sun runs on to its place of settlement. That is the determination of the Mighty the Knowing. [Sûrah YâSîn: 38]’.” [Sahîh al-Bukhârî (3199, 7424)]

##

The Prophet (peace be upon him) said one day: “Do you know where the Sun goes when it sets?”

They said: “Allah and His Messenger know best.”

He said: “It goes until it arrives at its place of settlement beneath the Throne. Then it falls down in prostration and remains like that until it is said to it: ‘Arise! Go back from whence you came.’ Then it goes back and rises from its place of rising. Then it goes until it arrives at its place of settlement beneath the Throne. Then it falls down in prostration and remains like that until it is said to it: ‘Arise! Go back from whence you came.’ Then it goes back and rises from its place of rising. Then it goes without people finding anything wrong with it until it arrives at that place of settlement it has beneath the throne. Then it will be told: ‘Arise! Enter upon the morning rising from your setting place’.”

Then Allah’s Messenger (peace be upon him) said: “Do you know when that will be? It will be when ‘its faith will not avail a soul which had not believed before or earned some good from its faith. [Sûrah al-An`âm: 157]’.” [Sahîh Muslim (159,205) ]

Kay said...

Yeah, muddy spring, murky water, muddy water. Learn some arabic before do the bashing.

http://www.answering- christianity. com/ sunrise_sunset.htm

http://www. youtube. com/watch?v=n8R2rVgD2ok

~~~~~~~~~~
"Do you have the slightest knowledge of science or facts? Does the sun have a stopping point or resting place for the night?"

another translation of Quran 36:38

And the sun runs his course for a period determined for him: that is the decree of (Him), the Exalted in Might, the All-Knowing.

*Article just few days ago*
After the hydrogen in the sun is exhausted, the sun will become a stellar cinder and simply cool over time. We call this state, the END STATE of 98% of all stars, white dwarfs.

http://lightyears. blogs. cnn.com /2013/02/08/ science-seat-sun-will-inevitably-fry-earth/?hpt=hp_c4

And oh.. more scientific miracle in Quran --> http:// www. miraclesofthequran. com/scientific_index.html

(have F-U-N debunking them O-N-E BY O-N-E ;) )

aaron said...

@kay
Do you know how pathetic the article of adam 90 feet tall is on answering christianity article is?

Obviously Osama abdullah who ran the site doesn;t know how to measure surface gravity.

g = G * M / r^2

since earth's mass is relatively the same. lets make you do the math increase the radius and see what happens.

g =acceleration by earth's gravity
G= universal constant
M = mass
r=radius

now go ahead chuck some numbers in it

Richard said...

@ Kay "Yeah, muddy spring, murky water, muddy water. Learn some arabic before do the bashing."

and "another translation of Quran 36:38

And the sun runs his course for a period determined for him: that is the decree of (Him), the Exalted in Might, the All-Knowing."

Pathetic. Trying to say the translation is wrong. The classic defence of Muslim apologists.

Unfortunately you quote the Sahih Bukhari Hadiths where Muhammad confirms the passage in the Quran and the fact that the Quran says that the Sun rests for the night.

Here it is:

"The Prophet (peace be upon him) said one day: “Do you know where the Sun goes when it sets?”

They said: “Allah and His Messenger know best.”

He said: “It goes until it arrives at its place of settlement beneath the Throne. Then it falls down in prostration and remains like that until it is said to it: until it is said to it: ‘Arise! Go back from whence you came.’ Then it goes back and rises from its place of rising. Then it goes without people finding anything wrong with it until it arrives at that place of settlement it has beneath the throne. ..."

Now compare that with the Sun apparently setting in the horizon in the West and rising in the East. The Arabs in Muhammad's time believed that the Sun actually set and rose in and from the Earth and there was a setting place and rising place (actual places) of the Sun. Muhammad was no exception in this belief. The Quran talks about both the places.

The Sun does not "fall prostrate" when it sets. When it "falls prostrate" then it remains still. When you pray and you fall prostrate with your backside pointing away from Mecca, you might have noticed you are not moving.

The Sun, according to Muhammad remains in that prostrate position, asking for permission to "rise", then it is told "Arise" and it "slides" to its "rising place" and then goes "to its place of settlement" (a hot spring) and so the cycle is repeated until the judgement day.

Now if you really believe that nonsense there is no use talking further with you.

Kay said...

Errr, but then even bible says Adam died at the age of 930

"When Adam had lived 130 years, he had a son in his own likeness, in his own image; and he named him Seth." Genesis 5:3-5

And oh, ever heard Giant of Castelnau??

Moral lesson: there are perhaps differences between the first man and the 7 billions of people roaming the earth now.

~~
Do you think the word prostration in the hadith has exact meaning as the physical prostration in Salah?

Go nuts digging various meaning of prostration :

http://www.merriam-webster. com/dictionary/prostration
http://www.thefreedictionary. com/prostrates
http://en.wikipedia. org/wiki/Prostration

or, lemme dig it for ye:

* the process of being made powerless or the condition of powerlessness
* To reduce to extreme weakness or incapacitation; overcome: [an illness that prostrated an entire family; a nation that was prostrated by years of civil war]

And to God prostate all things that are in the Heavens and all things that are in the Earth, of the live moving creatures and the angels, and they are not proud [i.e. they worship their Lord with humility] (16:49)

See you not that to God prostrates whoever is in the Heavens and whoever is on the Earth, and the Sun, and the Moon, and the stars, and the mountains, and the trees, and the live moving creatures, and many of humankind? But there are many [people] on whom the Punishment is justified. And whomsoever God disgraces, none can honor him. Verily! God does what He wills. (22:18)

~~
The Arabs in Muhammad's time believed that the Sun actually set and rose in and from the Earth and there was a setting place and rising place (actual places) of the Sun."

Says who? Says you?

Richard said...

@Kay "Errr, but then even bible says Adam died at the age of 930..ever heard Giant of Castelnau??"

What exact bearing has this to the Sun setting in a muddy spring according the Quran and the Hadiths?

@Kay "Go nuts digging various meaning of prostration..lemme dig it for ye:

* the process of being made powerless or the condition of powerlessness
* To reduce to extreme weakness or incapacitation; overcome: [an illness that prostrated an entire family; a nation that was prostrated by years of civil war]"

I see so taking the Sahih Hadith which YOU have quoted:

“It goes until it arrives at ITS PLACE OF SETTLEMENT beneath the Throne. Then it FALLS DOWN in prostration and REMAINS LIKE THAT until it is said to it: until it is said to it: ‘ARISE! Go back from whence you came.’ Then it "GOES BACK" and RISES FROM ITS PLACE OF RISING. Then it goes without people finding anything wrong with it until it arrives at that PLACE OF SETTLEMENT it has beneath the throne. ..."

Please go nuts in translation and explain what it means?

What does "FALLS DOWN in prostration" mean?

and "REMAINS LIKE THAT" mean?

and "Then it "GOES BACK" and RISES FROM ITS PLACE OF RISING." mean?

Last I heard the Sun only apparently "goes" in one direction.

But according to the Hadith it "falls down in prostration" remains like that then slides to its "place of rising" - sliding back and forth... hmmm

@Kay "The Arabs in Muhammad's time believed that the Sun actually set and rose in and from the Earth and there was a setting place and rising place (actual places) of the Sun."

Says who? Says you?"

No ..actually the Quran and Muhammad says so. I dont believe any such thing - do you?

Abdul Hamit said...

This video found (وَجَدَ) not be reflecting the truth by many people. Maybe some of you have found (وَجَدَ) this video to be interesting, but it is your own "perception/opinion.”

You got the meaning, right. The word "found (وَجَدَ)" has been repeated twice in this example; you should already know what exactly it means in both sentences. The word “found” has been used as “it appears!” In addition, the word “found” (وَجَدَ = Appeared or Found, وَجَدَهَا = He Found (He refers to the human being in the story, Zul Qarnian)) is used twice in the same Ayye (verse); one points to the fact that Zul Qarnian sees/finds (his point of view) sunset, and the other one points to the fact that he finds (sees) “a people.” Moreover, Allah does not need to find or discover “a people.” Allah already knows everything. Indeed, the word “found” (وَجَدَ and وَجَدَهَا) has been used in the same Ayye (verse) twice for Zul Qarnian (وَجَدَهَا = He Found). This is what he finds by traveling! He finds/sees the sunset and he finds/sees the people.

Moreover, the world “sunset” and sun “sink in” are different in Arabic. It is due to English language that you think sun can both “set” and “sink/drawn” “in” an object. The word that describes sunset in Arabic is [Gorub] (غروب) and the word used in Arabic for “sink” or “drown” is [Garg] “غرق”. They are two different words! They don’t have the same meaning! In Arabic, there is no such a relation between [Gorub] (غۡرُبُ) and [Garg] “غرق”.

Moreover, if you live in California near the ocean, you will see sunset (sun “setting”) behind the ocean, won’t you? Is it scientifically wrong? NO! It is true that “sun” “sets” behind the ocean in California, or behind a mountain in Alaska. It doesn’t mean that it sinks “in!” Even though the word “sunset” in English may lead you think that it can goes into the water, the word [Gorub] (غروب) has nothing to do with sinking or “drowning.” In Arabic, you don’t say “Sun” “Sets” “in” “something.” There is no “in!” [Gorub] (غروب) describes the motion of sun at sunset; in Arabic a person cannot say sun sets “in” something. “In” [Fi] (في) is not used for sunset [Gorub] (غروب) because it describes a motion. However you can use “in” [Fi] (في) for drowning [Garg] “غرق”. For example, “يغرق في الماء‎” which means “drown in water.”

Indeed, Arabic is a very rich language and you cannot solely rely on translation to understand.

I am not a native Arabic speaker, but I don’t have such a difficulty interpreting this Ayye (verse); it is so clear. Indeed, I have to tell you that Arabic is a very big and rich language and Allah uses it perfectly in Quran. Do not solely relay on translation. If you want to learn the truth, you need to investigate more than just relaying on English translation. Always remember, Allah is the greatest!

Kay said...

Thanks Abdul,

Clearly, both Richard and I don't understand Arabic. And it's a good thing that Qur'an has its original language. So despite it's been translated into German, Urdu, Persian, Polish, Chinese, Latin, Japanese, Swahili, Indian, Russian, etc we can always refer back to its original version - in this case Arabic (*)- for further clarification.

BTW, the funny thing is, those who try to twist Qur'an are those who don't understand Arabic, using translations. No wonder their target are those who don't understand Arabic as well. It's like a clueless person trying to mislead another clueless person.

So Richard, before you do your main job (i.e. twisting the Qur'an) why not first ask person proficient in Arabic language--for the sake of professionalism. And if you are reluctant to find local imam, just find local Arab guy/local translator in your area. And oh, not all of Arabic-speaking people are Muslims - so you might want to consult them as well.

Anyhow, I wonder if there are lexical (among other) disputes in the Bible, which versions should be used as main reference?? The Hebrew version? the 'koaine' Greek version (although Jesus himself didn't speak Greek)? the Aramaic version? the Chinese version? the Swahili version? the Thai version? BTW, should we use the 'original' or the updated version? And which update? Oh boy.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

(*)

"And thus: We have revealed to you a Quran in Arabic so that you may warn the Foremost of all towns and those who dwell around it, and may warn of the Day of Gathering, which is beyond all doubt. (Quran 42:7)

"Behold, We have sent it down in all clarity, in the Arabic tongue, so that you might encompass it with your reason." (Quran 12:2)

"Behold, We have made it a Quran in clear Arabic language that you may fully understand." (Quran 43:3)

"Now if We had made it a Quran in a non-Arabic tongue they would surely have said, "Why is it that its verses have not been made clear? Why - a foreign tongue and an Arab?" Say, "For those who accept it, this is a Guidance and medicine for a wholesome life. But as for those WHO WILL NOT BELIEVE (Arabs or non-Arabs), in their ears is deafness, and so it remains obscure to them. They are like people who are called to from afar." (Quran 41:44)

Richard said...

@Abdul Hamit "the world “sunset” and sun “sink in” are different in Arabic"

Surprise, surprise, they are different in English also. But when the Sun sets it appears to "sink into" the Earth. Many medieval people, including the Arabs, were under the impression that it literally "sank into" the Earth.

Muhammad also thought so, in fact he said so in no less the 4 Sahih Hadiths, if you would care to read what was been pointed out and quoted many times above.

He declared the Sun sets into a muddy pool. And he wrote the same thing in the Quran

@ Abdul Hamit "Moreover, if you live in California near the ocean, you will see sunset (sun “setting”) behind the ocean, won’t you?"

I do not live in California near the ocean but anyone living anywhere on Earth, in an open area, can see the Sun "setting" in the Earth, be it land or water.

But it is not possible to see the Sun setting in a muddy spring, as I have pointed out many times above.

The sun always sets in the horizon, which is at least 5 kilometres away. More if you are at a height.

@Kay "So Richard, before you do your main job (i.e. twisting the Qur'an) why not first ask person proficient in Arabic language"

Clearly these people are not Kay or Abdul Hamit. Both of you have confessed about not knowing Arabic. So it seems all 3 of us are on equal footing in this regard. (Though despite not knowing Arabic you have tried to explain Arabic to me. Though you have not managed to explain why Muhammad said the Sun set in a muddy pool)

@ Kay ""Behold, We have sent it down in all clarity, in the Arabic tongue, so that you might encompass it with your reason." (Quran 12:2)"

The Quran indeed claims its a clear book in several places. Quran 11.1, 6:114, 16:89 and 41:3

Yet its laid down in a language that few understand (Arabic of the Quraishi dialect that coincidentally was the only language that Muhammad spoke) and few people can agree on the interpretations of the verses.

Strange.

"...But as for those WHO WILL NOT BELIEVE (Arabs or non-Arabs), in their ears is deafness, and so it remains obscure to them. They are like people who are called to from afar." (Quran 41:44)

I find it difficult to believe the Sun sets in a muddy spring -true. Maybe in my ears there is a deafness?

Kay said...

So this is all about the MUDDY SPRING isn't?

The MUDDY SPRING which was taken from The Quran Translation by Marmaduke Pickthall?

"Till, when he reached the setting-place of the sun, he found it setting in a muddy spring, and found a people thereabout. We said: O Dhu'l-Qarneyn! Either punish or show them kindness."

Well, since Mr Pickthall was not the ONE AND ONLY GUY who had translated Quran, let's check what other guys' translation:

Muhammad Asad : [And he marched westwards] till, when he came to the setting of the sun, it appeared to him that it was setting in a DARK, TURBID SEA; and nearby he found a people [given to every kind of wrongdoing]. We said: "O thou Two-Horned One! Thou mayest either cause [them] to suffer or treat them with kindness!"

Shakir : Until when he reached the place where the sun set, he found it going down into a BLACK SEA, and found by it a people. We said: O Zulqarnain! either give them a chastisement or do them a benefit.

Yusuf Ali : Until, when he reached the setting of the sun, he found it set in a SPRING OF MURKY WATER: Near it he found a People: We said: "O Zul-qarnain! (thou hast authority,) either to punish them, or to treat them with kindness."
~~~~
WOW, there are so many variations, aren't there. Muddy spring, turbid sea, black sea, a spring of murky water. I wonder what the Swahili translation would say.

Anyhoo, even if the verse literally means springs (please consult someone knows Arabic first), many springs are indeed quite big, they can SWALLOW SUN.
Just check Grand Prismatic Spring, Pruess Lake, Giant Springs (Montana), springs in the dead sea (surprise, surprise, there's SPRINGS in the dead sea. And we also know how delicate the dead sea MUD is)

@I find it difficult to believe the Sun sets in a muddy spring -true. Maybe in my ears there is a deafness?

Well i guess, you're just too lazy. Too lazy to understand there are other translations beside Pickthall translation. Too lazy to consult people who understand Arab language (while there are at least 300.000.000 of them). Too quick to make judgment based on prejudice and hatred - while the research is minimum at best.

But then again, the classic attitude you've just exhibited is numerously stated in the Quran.
I mean, if Quran had revealed many facts that mankind just found thousand years later, like the earth that's not perfectly round (Newton 'discovered' this in 17th century) - why not the simple behavior of the unbelievers?

Richard said...

@Kay "So this is all about the MUDDY SPRING isn't?"

No. This is all about THE SETTING-PLACE OF THE SUN - a very special place, where according to the Quran, the Sun rests for the night at its "RESTING PLACE".

Quran 36:37-38:

"And a sign for them is THE NIGHT; We strip it of the day and lo, they are in darkness. And THE SUN -- IT RUNS TO A FIXED RESTING-PLACE; that is the ordaining of the All-mighty, the All-knowing."

This RESTING PLACE is translated as a muddy or dark, murky, hot spring by many Arabic scholars.

"The MUDDY SPRING which was taken from The Quran Translation by Marmaduke Pickthall?"

Not only Pickthall

Ahmed Raza Khan: “To the extent that when he reached THE SETTING-PLACE OF THE SUN, he found it setting in a muddy spring,..”

Arberry: “until, when he reached THE SETTING OF THE SUN, he found it setting in a muddy spring, ..”

Daryabadi “Until when he reached THE SETTING-PLACE OF THE SUN, he perceived it setting in a miry spring, ..”

Hilali and Khan “Until, when he reached THE SETTING PLACE OF THE SUN, he found it setting in a spring of black muddy (or hot) water..”

Maududi “ until when HE REACHED THE VERY LIMITS WHERE THE SUN SETS, he saw it setting in dark turbid waters;..”

Pickthall “Till, when he reached THE SETTING-PLACE OF THE SUN, he found it setting in a muddy spring,..”

Qaribullah and Darwish “until, WHEN HE REACHED THE SETTING OF THE SUN, he found it setting in a muddy spring,..”

Sarwar “to the West where HE FOUND THE SUN SETTING INTO A WARM SOURCE (spring) of water..”

Shakir “Until when he reached THE PLACE WHERE THE SUN SET, he found it going down into a black sea,..”

Yusuf Ali : “Until, when HE REACHED THE SETTING OF THE SUN, he found it set in a spring of murky water:..”

@Kay ".. many springs are indeed quite big, they can SWALLOW SUN."

Please go back to school Kay. There is NO spring or Sea capable of swallowing the Sun. The Sun is 1,300,000 times larger than the Earth by volume (that is one million three hundred thousand times larger). Moreover it doesnt set in the Earth it only APPEARS to do so.

Even Shakir's translation which translates it as a "BLACK SEA" says clearly that the guy travelled to THE PLACE WHERE THE SUN SET. Get it? THE place. Not any old place THE PLACE. What place? "WHERE THE SUN SET" and he found it going INTO a spring of murky water.

@Kay "WOW, there are so many variations, aren't there. Muddy spring, turbid sea, black sea, a spring of murky water."

Well lets consult the Arabic lexicon. The word used is عَيْنٍ or ʿaynin and it means a spring or hot spring. This word is also used in verse 88:5 of the Quran and what is it translated as? Surprise, surprise - hot spring.

@Kay "But then again, the classic attitude you've just exhibited is numerously stated in the Quran."

Of course. All charlatans and humbugs say we are telling the truth and if anyone doubts us they are the worst of creatures and will rot in hell.

@Kay "I mean, if Quran had revealed many facts that mankind just found thousand years later, like the earth that's not perfectly round.."

If only it had. But instead the Quran has revealed the Earth is perfectly flat and surrounded by 7 domed "heavens" that the stars are points of light used as "decorations" and the Sun and the Moon are further from us than the stars.

Greg said...

What a shame. This was a very poorly informed comments debate due to many false assertions and speculation about the meaning of certain arabic words by certain Muslim commenters.

All that stuff like what does he found it 'wajada' mean, when translations say 'spring' does it mean spring or sea in arabic etc. is all covered in the appropriate sections of the last article David links to in his original post labelled Dhu'l Qarnayn and the sun controversy...

climaterealistsbondi said...

Like any scientific theory, it takes just ONE error to cast doubt on a theory. If the Qur'an really is the absolute truth, having gone from Allah, through the prophet Muhammad to the Holy Qur'an and thus the word of God,then NO ERRORS whatsoever can be expected. The presence of so much as a single error brings the entire suggestion of the Book's holiness in to question. That science was not advanced then is NO excuse- God, as a divine and perfect entity would know the correct answer and would be able to give this answer to Muhammad. Just the single point of this inaccuracy about where the sun sets dispels the divinity of the Qur'an, Muhammad as a true Prophet or Allah as a divine God. One or several must be wrong. Islam itself is based on false pretenses.
Personally, I reject Islam-the doctrine of submission to Allah-does this somehow make me a racist?

Stevie Koch said...

Dear David & Sam, I have been a long time admirer and follower. I have a great idea for a Video. THE EXCUSES OF PROPHET MUHAMMAD. He has an excuse for eating poison and succumbing to its effects, excuse for marrying his son in laws ex-wife, excuse for sleeping with any wife he choose and fancy without the need to ask for permission, excuse get rid of his dinner guest early using Allah, excuse to have sex with war booty by marrying them same day their sons and husbands were killed without giving them any time to grief, excuse to have sex with Mary the Copt using what your right hand possess verse etc.. SO MANY LAME EXCUSES BY FALSE PROPHET MUHAMMAD...
Stevie

satumacam said...

Verily God decides who He shall give eyes and wisdom to see the truth. Dzulqarnain certainly was not a superstitious minded primitive caveman seeing the fact that he traveled the world and worked with alloy metal. If it was literally a spring that the sun set into, then certainly there would be a story of him diving into it to look for the sun.

Obviously the text can be understood in common English as "Until when he reached a place where the sun sets on a spring of dark mud..".

It just needs an open mind to understand.

Richard said...

satumacam said... "It just needs an open mind to understand". [What the Quran says about the setting place and rising place of the Sun]

True satumacam, not difficult to understand. The Quran clearly says the Sun sets on Earth at a special place in a muddy spring and rises from the Earth also at a place where "a people [live] for whom We had not appointed any veil to shade them from it [the Sun]."

But to try and "understand" it the way would like us to understand it, [in other words not saying what it is clearly saying] you will have to rely on the intelligence of this mysterious person "Dzulqarnain"

According to you he "certainly was not a superstitious minded primitive caveman" and if he thought that "it was literally a spring that the sun set into, then certainly there would be a story of him diving into it to look for the sun."

And since there is no "story" about him diving into the pool to look for the Sun then obviously it wasn't literally the place the Sun set into.

But then there are many alternative explanations for that, it was a hot muddy spring, he couldn't swim, couldn't dive, didn't want to.

And of course there is the simplest and most obvious explanation of all. The one explanation you absolutely refuse to consider. That the whole thing is a story. The Quran is a story riddled with errors.

Your hypothesis / belief is that the Quran is true despite all the evidence to the contrary.

It just needs an open mind to understand that beliefs and hypotheses have to be rejected if the evidence does not support them.