Since Muslims in the West claim that science confirms the Qur'an, we should work diligently to explain to them what the Qur'an says, and how Muhammad obviously interpreted it. The following two quotations, when used together, are devastating and unanswerable:
Qur’an 18:83-86—And they ask you about Dhul-Qarnain. Say: “I shall recite to you something of his story.” Verily, We established him in the earth, and We gave him the means of everything. So he followed a way. Until, when he reached the setting place of the sun, he found it setting in a spring of black muddy (or hot) water. And he found near it a people.
Sunan Abu Dawud 3991—Abu Dharr said: I was sitting behind the Apostle of Allah who was riding a donkey while the sun was setting. He asked: Do you know where this sets? I replied: Allah and his Apostle know best. He said: It sets in a spring of warm water.
For more on Muhammad, the Qur'an, and the setting of the sun, here are some articles:
INTRODUCTIONS:
Sam Shamoun, "Muhammad and the Sun's Setting Place"
Cornelius, "The Sun in the Muddy Pool and the Prophethood of Muhammad"
LONGER WORKS:
Sam Shamoun and Jochen Katz, "Islam and the Setting of the Sun"
Martin Taverille, "Dhu’l Qarnayn and the Sun Controversy in the Qur’an: New Evidence"
In case you missed the first entry in this series:
54 comments:
If we accept the view that Alexander the Great is Dhul Qarnayn, you come up with two more problems:
1. Alexander was a pagan, not a believing monotheist.
2. He could not have reached the place where the sun sets because we know from secular history that he expanded his empire eastward, not westward.
By the way, I could argue that there is a fourth option: Salvage the reinterpretation by rejecting the hadith from Abu Dawud as spurious. But then the burden of proof is on the Muslim to show why he thinks that hadith is unreliable, and provide some kind of positive confirmation of the reinterpretation from some other hadith or tafsir source.
Brilliant, as usual.
YO DAVID:
Howbout a video idea ^^
Yusuf Ali on Quran 14:4
We sent not a messenger except (to teach) in the language of his (own) people, in order to make (things) clear to them. Now Allah leaves straying those whom He pleases and guides whom He pleases: and He is Exalted in power, full of Wisdom.
in which means every language, every culture, every nation got their own Islamic prophets!
IN EXAMPLE:
Islamic messenger of Japan:
Prophet Mitsubishi married 9 yrs old Maria Osawa, fathered little suzuki and big brother honda. Too bad, Suzuki committed harakiri by suicide bombing and maria became a geisha.
You can look at Japanese Quran of Engine specification and handling manual. It is originally in Japanese and must be read in Kanji!
Oh yeah, what's Allah name in Japan? SUDHOKU!!!
---------------------------------
Islamic Messenger of Jamaica:
Prophet Marley first name Bob loves to wear women' clothes while getting inspiration in the cave! He doesn't approve gay, yet wore an eyeliner, condemns pork and believe semen came from the back bone!
Allah's name in Jamaica is Al-Al-Al-Long... (A La La Long de long long long)
Here's a video clip of Allah by the inner circle:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNnJD_Tyl7Y
----------------------------------
Islamic Messenger of Swedeen.
Prophet ABBA, with 4 cannonical hadiths from Anni-Frid "Frida" Lyngstad, Björn Ulvaeus, Benny Andersson and Agnetha Fältskog.
The prophet led an army of dancinq queens through europe and the rest of the Disco world; Conquering each land, forcing them until they establish regular record playing 5 times a day, pay for the songs and CDs willingly while they are humbled.
Allah's name in Sweeden would be:Beowulf!
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D335 ^^
David do not forget the glorious Quran teaches the earth is stationary and the Sun revolves around it...here a Muslim provides 17 proofs for this plus if you read in the comments below his post you see various fatwa's declaring this great "truth"
http://abuaaliyah.multiply.com/journal/item/120/The_Earth_doesnt_Revolve_around_the_Sun-_17_verses_to_prove_it.
Dear Dr. David,
"Oh boy bravo" sorry Doc. for my language
I don't have any word to explain my gratitude regarding the video about the sun set. I am very happy because I had asked the following question on this blog concerning this issue and i put a bet on it that time:
"Can anyone put a fridge in the bottle"?
The answer I got from Ms. Kim was "NO". So I would like to hear from her. Please Ms. Kim make up you mind and come to CHRIST JESUS. We love you.
As you said in the video, the sun is 1.3 million bigger than the earth and Ms. Kim knows this very well.
Dr. David I'd be glad to see the same type of video with the title "Allah Prays"
I think this is the best way to let muslims see the mistakes of their book and with the Power of the HOLY SPIRIT they will reject it Chapter 4 Verse 82. I watched it on ABN but it is nice when you bring it up as a single topic
Well done Dr. David. I wish I had a lot of money in order to sponsore this work as well as ABN Jihadwatch ...etc on the large scale.
BTW Dr. when Sam and you going to have a show again at ABN?
MAY YAHWEH BLESS US AND COVER US THE PRECIOUS BLOOD OF JESUS. AMEN
Check my post on the rotation of the Sun in the Quran, which teaches the earth is fixed and the Sun and moon rotate around it, in fact some of the Muslim clerics go so far as to accuse anyone who thinks the earth moves of being "ignorant". Yes Yes the glorious Quran full of amazing wonders!!!
http://www.callingmuslims.com/2011/11/another-quranic-blunder-quran-teaches.html
Brother David Wood,
If the sun sets in a body of water, then it would have to rise back FROM THAT place and set into another body of water, which the Glorious Quran never makes any mention of, and then rise from that body of water and set into the first body of water, and then rise back from that body of water and set into the other body of water, and so on....
There is onething that I am very appreciative to you and Sam Shamoun and the others about, and that is you help me, and the Muslims like me, to further expose the false hadiths that exist in our database/library of Hadiths, which is estimated around 2 million hadiths, I was told.
To the reader, there are 3 SCIENTIFIC MIRACLES in the Noble Verses that Mr. David Wood had brought up. Please visit: www.answering-christianity.com/sunrise_sunset.htm for more details. The article even has my debate with David Wood, which David never posted on his website about the Scientific Miracles in the Glorious Quran.
I want to invite you David, and Sam and the Christians who are reading this to study Islam more objectively, and not just judge it based on "hadiths", as if they are cut and dry history. They are not reliable history. Some of them are True, and some are false. You treat all of them as True. You also should know that Arabic is a poetical language, and sometimes you would have terms that are metaphoric and not literal.
Thanks!
Osama Abdallah
www.answering-christianity.com/sunrise_sunset.htm
Dear Dr. David,
I think, Chapter 9 of the qu'ran is the last to be "revealed". So, why do we find abrogation in it? Please Dr. correct me if I'm wrong.
In chapter 9 verses 97, 99 & 101 What is going on, which is which?
Can any muslim explain what is going on in the desert please? And thank you in advance
MAY YAHWEH BLESS US ALL IN THE HOLY NAME OF OUR LORD JESUS AMEN.
Thanks David!!! Please give us more of these so called scientific miracles in the Quran, the Deen Show seems to think there are so many!
Why doesn't the muslim see this? Why do they continue trying to explain them away? Of course they say the Hadith you quoted isn't a trustworthy Hadith.
Hey Osama,
When your argument was exposed on the "Who Killed Muhammad" post you did a disappearing act and you now reappear here? So it looks like you accept your defeat and acknowledge that Muhammad is a false prophet. So when you accept that your prophet is a false prophet what is the point in defending this Quran verse?
Osama - "You also should know that Arabic is a poetical language, and sometimes you would have terms that are metaphoric and not literal."
You should know that English is a grammatical language. I think what you mean here is "Arabic is a poetic language", not "Arabic is a poetical language". I know what you meant though... at least literally (though maybe not metaphorically).
I have been frequently told that "The Koran only works in Arabic" and yet it is still translated into other languages. Certainly such an important book would have to go through some sort of extensive and intensive scrutiny before it was allowed into the hands of foreign speakers so that it "literally" said what it was supposed to mean without ambiguity (whether its content was literal or metaphorical... or ambiguous) But I digress...
It was my understanding that the Koran and the Hadith, are not "interpretative". David says that multiple times. Not so with the Hadith then?
So in this database of 2 million Hadith (which I am assuming is available on a website somewhere or public domain somewhere)? is it searchable by "truth" and "untruth"? Who "decides" whether it is "true" or "untrue"? Are you talking about a database on your website specifically or a website in the public domain?
"I want to invite you David, and Sam and the Christians who are reading this to study Islam more objectively, and not just judge it based on "Hadiths"..."
Leaving out the Agnostics and the Atheists again, are we? Shame on you. But I guess we aren't "People of the Book" after all.
"Study more objectively"... You mean read the Koran and Hadith and take it literally and not interpretively? I believe we are engaging in that activity already without your express invitation. Thanks though.
Mr Osama, Please be honest with yourself and others (muslims) are you telling us that those who decided that the "sahih" True" are wrong and that you are right? Are you messenger send to come with the new interpretation? According to you if I curse Allah in my language He will not understand, unless I speak in arabic? Do you have a mirror in you house? Please try take some few minutes to look at yourself, then ask yourself the following question: Am I normal?
I spoke to you sometimes back about Allah praying you told me that it was wrong. Now let tell you that I have the clear information and it is true that Allah prays in the quran. Please Mr. Osama stop telling us lies. I visited your website it is full of lies and verses of the HOLY BIBLE taken out of context to suit you. Please be honest with yourself and others. Since you want to reject the explanition of your own "prophet muhammad", your muslims brothers may harm you take care please we love you.
MAY YAHWEH BLESS US ALL IN JESUS' NAME AMEN
I choose the Good Muslim option. If there seems to be a controversy in the Hadith, I'm not going to just leave Islam based on one little thing we misunderstand at the moment.
If we're going to use the Hadith to try and disprove Islam, then you'll find Hadith where Islam is clearly the 100% religion of God. There may be some things we don't perfectly understand 100% yet.
Until then, more research has to be done on this topic before we reach a conclusion!!!
I understand why many muslims are not able to understand many of the arguments against the Quran. A lot af the arguments against the Quran are based on a mode of thought that are simply alien to the islamic way of thinking. I understand that.
But I simply cannot understand why muslims cannot see the problem with Mary and Miriam in the Quran. It is so obvious that Muhammad thought that Mary and Miriam, the sister of Moses, are one and the same person, which they are definitely not. I completely understand why Muhammad would make this mistake, and it is a very human thing to do. But it shows beyond any reasonable doubt that the Quran is not the word of God. It is the word of Muhammad, a man who (in good and evil) was extraordinaire. Extraordinaire but human.
Oh, no. There's a fourth option my friend. Kill David Wood.
You think the Mad Arab (pbuh) and his beastly followers would take the time to sit down and explain this scriptural foolishness in a calm and rational way?
Puh-leeze. The sword could win this argument in two seconds.
Oh, the rationalizer did a great video on how the quran believes that the earth is flat:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_FaNg_nxqns
Osama, your sunset_sunrise webpage you mention is refered to several times in the last link David provided in his post (quranspotlight) and thoroughly refuted therein
HA ha @D335 you are killing me. LOL
David you missed that Hadiths by Bukhari:
After the sun sets it goes under the throne of god, prostrates and ask permission to rise again.
Another one: at the last hour the sun will set his prostration will not be accepted by god and he will be order to go back on the last day the sun will rise from the west.
Another one according to Muhammad in another Hadith:
Every morning Allah decends to lower haven" is there anyone seeking forgiveness".
If Mohammad is correct than Allah can never leave once he descends to lower haven, early morning is a 24/7 event.
I am going to pretend that I am Zakir Naik. Here is my response:
At the time of revelation sun used to set in muddy water but god changed his plan after the death of Mohammad.
Another classical video by David. Bravo!!!!!!!
Some of the Muslims now say it Dhul Karnan is not Alexander the great by Cyrus the Great.
The evidence that Alexander the great was gay is becoming stronger therefore they are moving away from him LOL
@ Kim @ Usama @ anymuslim
Does the earth rotate around the Sun or does the Sun rotate around the Earth?
@ Kim The doors of ijtihad are closed, there is nothing for you to try to understand..you either agree with the understanding of the Salaf regrading these narrations or you don't, your Salaf were literalistic, they literally understood that the sun descended into a literal pool of mud, they literally believed the earth was stationary and the moon and sun revolved around it, they literally believed the sun went under the earth made sujood to Allah and asked permission to raise up in the east
It one thing to lie to others, its a whole other animal to lie to yourself.
CL Edwards? I'm not sure if you are the same guy I saw on the ABN shows. But if you are........You rock bra!
I've seen every episode (the english ones of course). Can't get enough.
Come on guys. I want more Jesus or Muhammad. David, Sam, and Pastor Joeeeeeeee.
@CL Edwards
The answer to your question is neither. Because the earth revolves around the sun not "rotates" around the sun.
@David wood
What you do not understand David wood is that muslims generally agree that there are hadiths that are fallible unlike the Holy Quran which, the Allah (swt) promised to protect from corruption. However, if you show muslims a hadith that for example has scientific inaccuracies, then all you are doing is showing us the hadiths that were not actually uttered by Muhammad (pbuh). Lastly, remember that when you attempt to find errors in the Quran, that the quran is in a poetic language, meaning that not everything the quran says is to be taken for its literal meaning. I'm sure you must understand this because jesus (pbuh) spoke in parables in your bible as well. If you take everything literally, then you can disprove anything, but to truly disprove something, i recommend you use a sound method that takes certain things into account.
@ Osama Abdallah
Do you know Arabic language?
@ Samatar why do you believe that?
@ Andy Bell yea I have been on JorM, I agree it would be nice to do some new shows, but that's ABN's call.
Hey guess what. Muslims get to pick and choose what to take literally and what to take figuratively! After all Allah has made the Quran so clear.
11:1 Alif, Lam, Ra. [This is] a Book whose verses are perfected and then presented in detail from [one who is] Wise and Acquainted.
6:114 [Say], "Then is it other than Allah I should seek as judge while it is He who has revealed to you the Book explained in detail?" And those to whom We [previously] gave the Scripture know that it is sent down from your Lord in truth, so never be among the doubters.
the excuses and logical fallacies never end. How convoluted and delusional people can be is absolutely fascinating!
Alexander the great, the guy who kept a copy of the illiad under his pillow. Do muslims seriously consider this guy (great conquerer though he may be) someone worthy of religious veneration?
I am not completely surprised how Muslims will continue to deny the plain truth of this part of the Quran.
How glad and happy are they to trumpet that the Quran is infallible.
It is obvious that the Quran meant what it said regarding Dhul-Qarnain finding the sun setting in a muddy spring.
Since this is obviously false, then it is impossible for the Quran to be considered infallible.
And thus, Quran must, at the very least, be considered not free of errors.
Of course, the implication is too big to only affect a part(s) of Islam.
Just for the record: WhatsUpDoc is, as a matter off fact, Kim...
@search for truth
"Hey guess what. Muslims get to pick and choose what to take literally and what to take figuratively! After all Allah has made the Quran so clear. "
Again my friend, you have to be consistent yourself. I already posted some time earlier that the Old testament said the God is not the author of confusion, yet the father decides not to inform the jews he constantly punishes for not obeying him that there are actually two other persons beside him that make a triune God. Not to mention that jesus (pbuh) always talks in parables throughout the old testament, which the people had a hard time understanding. Now in answer to your question, i have asked many arabs, and they have all told me that it was not to be taken literally as setting in a muddy spring. They tell me that it is pretty obvious that it is not to be taken literally because of the term wajada that is used meaning that it appeared to Dhul qharnain as if it was setting that way. That is the problem with trying to translate the amazing language of the quran my friend.
@CL Edwards
get to your point.
@ Samatar.
Yeah and having sex with captives while one or both of you is married is not adultery either! I understand. And by wonderful language , in Islamic definition does wonderful translate to ambiguous, vague, and incomprehensible?
Ok now for consistency.
par·a·ble [par-uh-buhl] Show IPA
noun
1.
a short allegorical story designed to illustrate or teach some truth, religious principle, or moral lesson.
2.
a statement or comment that conveys a meaning indirectly by the use of comparison, analogy, or the like.
Ok what is the meaning or principle behind describing the sun setting n a pool of murky water?
So you spoke to some Arabic speaking people who gave their uninformed subjective opinion without consulting YOUR prophets sunna and scholars? LOL! Excellent research you have done. Let's go to Ibn Abbas the companion and first cousin of your false Prophet.And read what he Mohamed himself said. And then you can begin your logical fallacies and denial of fact and your greatest scholars!
* تفسير Tanwîr al-Miqbâs min Tafsîr Ibn ‘Abbâs
{ حَتَّىٰ إِذَا بَلَغَ مَغْرِبَ ٱلشَّمْسِ وَجَدَهَا تَغْرُبُ فِي عَيْنٍ حَمِئَةٍ وَوَجَدَ عِندَهَا قَوْماً قُلْنَا يٰذَا ٱلْقَرْنَيْنِ إِمَّآ أَن تُعَذِّبَ وَإِمَّآ أَن تَتَّخِذَ فِيهِمْ حُسْناً }
(Till, when he reached the setting place of the sun) where the sun sets, (he found it setting in a muddy spring) a blackened, muddy and stinking spring; it is also said that this means: a hot spring, (and found a people thereabout) these people were disbelievers: (We said: O Dhu'l-Qarnayn!) We inspired him (Either punish) either kill them until they accept to believe that there is no deity except Allah (or show them kindness) or you pardon them and let them be.
Abu Dawud’s report:
4002. It was narrated that Abu Dharr said: “I was riding behind the Messenger of Allah while he was on a donkey, and the sun was setting. He said: ‘Do you know where this (sun) sets?’ I said: ‘Allah and his Messenger know best.’ He said: ‘IT SETS IN A SPRING OF WATER (fa innaha taghrubu fi ‘ainin hamiyah).’”
Now are your Arabic speaking friends greater scholars that them? I mean you have got to be kidding me. How willfully ignorant can one individual be?
Please tell me the meaning behind telling a parable about the sun setting in a muddy pond and why did Mohamed lie to this man? the mind is a terrible thing to waste, on Islam!
@ Osama Abdallah
I did not hear from you!
This is very important ...
And something new ...
All old Islamic school (Basra, Madina, Kufa) explain it as the sun going into a hot water/muddy well.
It is not like a claim that you are standing in front an ocean!
In the Surah it says "تَغْرُبُ فِي عَيْنٍ حَمِئَةٍ وَوَجَدَ عِنْدَهَا قَوْمًا" It is a well
And by that place "so it a location an found people near that place ...
-------------------
In verse 84 "إِنَّا مَكَّنَّا لَهُ فِي الْأَرْضِ وَآتَيْنَاهُ مِن كُلِّ شَيْءٍ سَبَبًا"
Ibn Kathir explains "that Dhul-Qarnain journey is under the guidance of Allah "متبعا فيها العلم (فاتبع سببا.
so these verses is not only seeing the sun visually but it is under Allah's guidance
--------------------
Notice in the Quran it says "Wajada"/found and not "Raaha"/saw
in the Arabic dictionary part 2 page 1013 it defines Wajada = to be Aware of and understand
So he found the sun going into the muddy well! It is a place where the sun went into
=====================
Here is the new thing
Mohammed in Surah 18:86 copied this idea from Pre-Islamic Poetry "
الشعر الجاهلي" !!!
This belongs to a poet by the name أمية بن أبي الصلت Ameya Bin Abi Alsalat
Download his book here
http://www.mediafire.com/?zabkuankf9bpqtk
look in page 36 and I underlined it where it says the same thing that Dhul-Qarnain found where the sun goes in the muddy well!
Kim - "Until then, more research has to be done on this topic before we reach a conclusion!!!"
By "more research" I am assuming that you mean anyone else except the people on this blog or Dr. David Wood...
and by "we" you mean you. Scratch that. By "we" you mean the plural of you and everyone who "agrees" with you.
So is the Koran and Hadith to be taken literally or metaphorically? Do you admit that there is some ambiguity, not just in a translation, but in the text itself? It seems like you do when you say:
"There may be some things we don't perfectly understand 100% yet."
Welcome to the world of "revealed" religions.
Samatar,
You said, "because of the term wajada that is used meaning that it appeared to Dhul qharnain as if it was setting that way."
If you would actually study the passage in question again Quran 18:86, you'd notice that wajada appears TWICE in that verse...
Transliteration of 18:86:
"Hatta itha balagha maghriba alshshamsi wajadaha taghrubu fee AAaynin hamiatin wawajada AAindaha qawman qulna ya tha alqarnayni imma an tuAAaththiba waimma an tattakhitha feehim husnan "
And practically all English translations agree wajada is to be translated as 'found', not 'appear'.
http://www.searchtruth.com/chapter_display_all.php?chapter=18&from_verse=86&to_verse=86&mac=&translation_setting=1&show_transliteration=1&show_yusufali=1&show_shakir=1&show_pickthal=1&show_mkhan=1&show_melayu=1
(and I re-affirm using Google Translate, by isolating both the Arabic words "wajada" in the sentence)
So... if we are to be consistent... does that mean Dhul-Qarnain also *metaphorically* found a group of people near this bed of water?
Or that a group of people 'appeared' to be there?
And then Allah told Dhul-Qarnain to either punish or treat these people who 'appeared' to be there?
@search for truth
"Ok what is the meaning or principle behind describing the sun setting n a pool of murky water?"
Not every statement the quran makes has to have a meaning or principle behind it my friend (take a look at your bible for instance). The quran is narrating a story through the eyes of Dhul Qharnain. The quran is not actually saying that the Sun set in a hot spring, but that it was the way Dhul Qharnain saw it. I don't know how much times i am going to have to repeat this to you before you get it. Next, you try to pin me by saying that it was how ibn saad understood it. You understand that there is a hadith where the prophet Muhammad (pbuh) says that his ummah cannot be wrong when they have reached a consensus on an issue. This hadith is showing that the ummah can make mistakes in areas of dispute.So if that is how he viewed it, then he has been proven wrong. But my point is that muslims in general say that the Quran is not meaning it literally. Next, you bring up that hadith but i already said in my earlier posts that we believe that there are hadiths that are fallible because of the error, or corruptions of human mind, but that the quran cannot be fallible because it is the word of god almighty. Lastly, you said
" the mind is a terrible thing to waste, on Islam!"
Yet you seem to be doing just that i guess. I encourage you and david wood, sam shamoun and others to continue studying and critisizing the Quran and Islam, i believe that with the will of Allah (swt), and studying with an open mind, that you will eventually discover the fruit and truth of Islam.
@ Samatar Mohamed
I guess you did not read my comment!
Dhul Qharnain story is stolen from
Pre-Islamic Poetry ... Surprise
I gave a link to the book that shows the poet who said it ...
You said "Not every statement the quran makes has to have a meaning or principle behind it my friend "
It sure does because that is from Allah and Allah knows best!
You say statament like this in the Middle East you could get killed my friend ...
Allah gave you the straight path ... do you remember?
هذا القرآن هو حبل الله المتين وهو النور المبين وهو الذكر الحكيم والصراط المستقيم ...
Osama, can you answer one simple question. You talk about “false hadiths”. What are the criteria you utilize to distinguish between false hadiths and true hadiths? Does it have anything to do with “I like this so it’s true” and “this is blatantly wrong so it must be false”? If not, what are the consistent criteria?
Thanks,
Nakdimon
Samatar said, "Not every statement the quran makes has to have a meaning or principle behind it my friend"
Samatar also said, "but that the quran cannot be fallible because it is the word of god almighty."
So, the Quran is the word (singular?) of Allah... but not every statement Allah makes need to have a meaning?
Very interesting thought, Samatar. Really is. You should think about it more.
-------
Samatar said, "But my point is that muslims in general say that the Quran is not meaning it literally."
So then, Dhul-Qarnain didn't literally found a group of people near this muddy spring..
and Allah didn't literally told him to either punish them or treat them?
Very interesting thought, again.
@ Samater.
Every single thing you said is the exact opposite of reality.
I am not wasting my mind, I am using it in an attempt to reveal how convoluted Islam, and your logical fallacies are.
You said it was a parable. There has to be a purpose to say that they Wajada the sun, which translates to found the sun. What is the parable or meaning? Is Allah trying to deceive people? What is the parable? Why would he say it?
He did not have to be so descriptive. If i say i walked to the end of my street and I found my neighbors sitting on their front porch. We3 can conclude that I walked down the street and I saw my neighbors sitting on their porch.
Now if I say I walked to the end of the earth and I found the sun setting in a dirty pool of water. What else could it mean other than what I said? If it is not literal than what is the parable? And all of the hadith conclude he was being literal. You are in total denial or reality.
Quote "
Not every statement the quran makes has to have a meaning or principle behind it my friend (take a look at your bible for instance)."
Substantiate your claim. Why would Allah mention this clear scientific and grammatical error? What is the purpose? And all of your hadith point to the fact that it is literal. I havent encountered any hadith that take it as figurative. I find Islam to be so unreliable and illogical you have to throw logic and reason and integrity out the window to be a muslim. Redefining words, actions, and morality. It is insane. I feel bad for you.
Samatar,
When Jesus speaks in parables it is obvious that he speaks in parables, because he makes hypotheticals, uses contemporary figures of speech etc to communicate to his audience. Also, we sometimes later have him explaining the meaning of those parables. Never do we have anything of the sort in the Quran. PLUS we have ahadith that are deemed “authentic” that prove that the interpretation of those verses in the Quran are indeed literal and not metaphorical.
But if what you are saying about ahadith such as the one on murky water is true then many questions should be answered:
1. What is your criterion for “authenticity” when it comes to ahadith?
2. Why should we, if we see a hadith that is part of your tradition, disregard an explanation of the Quran that, by all Islamic criteria, (assuming that those criteria are valid to begin with) seems to really come from Muhammad?
3. Why should we deem ahadith with “missing links” (people who are not mentioned in a chain) in the chain of transmitters unauthentic just because a person isn’t mentioned? For example: Would it follow that 7 generations from now if a person recounts 9/11 and forgets to mention a 4th generation transmitter that either the testimony is invalid or that the event never happened?
4. Why should we deem this verse about the setting sun as metaphorical and what is that metaphorical meaning of “setting in murky water”?
5. Why is Mary, the mother of Jesus, being called “sister of Harun” in the Quran, when she is many generations removed from Aharon?
6. Why does Muhammad claim in yet another authentic hadith that the custom of the day in Mary’s culture was that people would call others the brother of a pious person generations removed, while we see a completely different custom in the days of Mary, namely, that if people were generations removed, they would be called SON or DAUGHTER of the ancestor, rather than “sister” of “brother”?
7. If it was a custom to call people the sister of a pious person, why on earth does the Quran not call Mary the sister of Amram as well, rather than a daughter?
8. In light of the pervious questions, there is one other known Miryam in ancient literature that is coincidentally the actual the daughter of Amram as well as the sister of Aharon at the same time! Why do you think is it an illogical conclusion to think that the author of the Quran simply confused Miryam, the mother of Jesus, with Miryam, the actual daughter of Amram AND at the same time the actual sister of Moses?
Thanks!
Nakdimon
I love challenges like this. They're fun to investigate and in the end we understand the truth.
In the meantime...everyone just chill down and do your resarch.
Imam Al-Baidawi notes,
He probably reached shore of the ocean and saw it like that because there was but water at the furthest of his sight that's why He says "he found it set" and does not say "it sets". (Al-Baidawi, Anwar-ut-Tanzil wa Asrar-ut-Taw'il, Volume 3, page 394. Published by Dar-ul-Ashraf, Cairo, Egypt)
Imam Al-Qurtubi states,
Al-Qaffal said: It is not meant by reaching the rising or setting of the sun that he reached its body and touched it because it runs in the sky around the earth without touching it and it is too great to enter any spring on earth. It is so much larger than earth. But it is meant that he reached the end of populated land east and west, so he found it - according to his vision - setting in a spring of a murky water like we watch it in smooth land as if it enters inside the land. That is why He said, "he found it rising on a people for whom we had provided no covering protection against the sun." (Holy Qur'ân 18:90) and did not mean that it touches or adheres to them; but they are the first to rise on.
Al-Qutabiy said: Probably this spring is a part of the sea and the sun sets behind, with or at it, so the proposition takes the place of an adjective and Allah knows best. (Al-Qurtubi, Al-Game' le Ahkam-el-Qur'an, Volume 16, page 47. Published by Dar-ul-Hadith, Cairo, Egypt. ISBN 977-5227-44-5)
Imam Fakhr-ud-Deen Ar-Razi states,
When Zul-Qarnain reached the furthest west and no populated land was left, he found the sun as if it sets in a dark spring, but it is not in reality. The same when sea traveler sees the sun as if it sets in the sea if he cannot see the shore while in reality it sets behind the sea. (Ar-Razi, At-Tafsir-ul-Kabir, Volume 21, page 166)
Imam Ibn Kathir states,
"Until, when he reached the setting of the sun" means he followed a certain way till he reached the furthest land he could go from the west. As for reaching the setting of the sun in the sky, it is impossible. What narrators and story tellers say about that he walked for a period of time in earth while the sun was setting behind him is unreal, and most of it is from myths of People of the Book and inventions of their liars.
"he found it set in a spring of murky water" means he saw the sun according to his vision setting in the ocean and this is the same with everyone ending to the shore seeing as if the sun sets inside it (i.e. the ocean).
(Ibn Kathir, Tafsir-ul-Qur'ân Al-'Azim, Volume 5, page 120. Published by Maktabat-ul-Iman, Mansoura, Egypt)
I believe this is adequate to refute the missionaries' imposed interpretation. And to Allah is the Judgement in all affairs.
From www.call-to-monotheism.com
Taking 1 hadith out of context aint gonna cut it. Neither is making youtube videos with your own interpretation.
@ Kim
One hadith? Have you read all of the evidence? You are in total denial of reality!
David I can not believe your ability to get to the smallest details. A wise man had said the devil is in the detail.
@Kim the series of these suras are based on when god realized that lot of people are asking questions to Prophet about Dhul Karnan. Therefore Allah decided to rehearse the Prophet so he can tell the inquiring public the truth about Dhul Karnan.
If what you are saying is true than the verse should simply end at a point that it looked to Dhul it was setting in the sea but that was not the case.
What about place of the sun rise and he found people there who had no protection from the sun. Please explain that to us while you are at it.
http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.com/2011/04/sun-sets-in-pool-of-slime-hadith.html
http://www.bismikaallahuma.org/archives/2005/mary-the-sister-of-aaron/
Personally I think the real issue with passages like these, is the OBVIOUS and CLEAR ambiguous nature of the passages.
Read Kim's supposed "tafseer" that is meant to "save" the day, and you can see the answers are all different, sometimes contradictory, and one virtually agrees with what David had said except says the muddy pool is the Sea.
Far from "resolving" the problem, Bass am only manages to enlarge the ambiguous content of such nonsensical passages by showing the incompetency of the commentators.
Book of God?
BOOOK OF GOD?????????????????
THIS IS THE BEST GOD HAS????????????
It's so EASY to be an Agnostic. =)
Notice the actual conclusion we should reach (what I have stated). Then notice how Kim frames this situation:
"oh it was inevitable studying stuff like this will lead us to the TRUTH of Islam, it was only one little problem, we have resolved it and found MORE of the glorious truth of my religion, there are no serious problems with my religion".
Right there are no serious problems with your religion because no one can make heads or tails out of the joke passages.
Oh by the way be consistent. Don't use science to "prove the Qur'an", and then when we point out passages that contradict science, it's "they should be reinterpreted non-literally".
Use the commentators to get you out of the crisis, but when we point out these same commentators don't make the same conclusions that you contemporary Muslims about the alleged "scientific" passages, now it's "oh they are not infallible" " we don't have to accept their interpretation".
And all the great scholars of Islam couldn't put back humpty together again...
Kim, seriously. How can you quote Ibn Kathir, Qurtubi and all those scholars when we have an authentic narration from your prophet contradicting those personal views. It's one thing to promote a personal view of a scholar without a counter-citation from your prophet or them appealing to your prophet or his companions, but to actually overrule your prophet by citing scholars just because your prophet is blatantly wrong.... thats just intellectual suicide!
Dear Professor Wood,
can you say something against the argument that the Hadith you cited as proof is concidered weak?
Also another question if I may:
While traditional Sharia seem to clacifie rape as "zina" there is a sunnan abu dawud hadith that seems to contradict it: Book 38, Number 4366
http://muslim-responses.com/Biblical_God_Orders_Rape/Biblical_God_Orders_Rape_
Seems in this case no 4 witneses were required.
Bassam argues that this hadith is strong, can you say something about it since you never talked about this hadith.
sorry for my bad English and thank you in advance.
That the Sun sets in the Earth literally, is confirmed not only by the Quran 18:86 where it talks of Dhul Qarnayn travelling till he reached the "setting place of the Sun", but clarified by Muhammad to remove any possible doubt, in no less than 4 Sahih Hadiths:
Bukhari 6.326: ..The Prophet said, "O Abu Dharr! Do you know where the sun sets?" I replied, "Allah and His Apostle know best." He said, "It goes and prostrates underneath (Allah's) Throne; and that is Allah's Statement:-- 'And the sun runs on its fixed course for a term (decreed). And that is the decree of All-Mighty, the All-Knowing....' (36.38)
Muslim 1:297 “..the Messenger of Allah ..one day said: Do you know where the sun goes? They replied: Allah and His Apostle know best. He (the Holy Prophet) observed: Verily it (the sun) glides till it reaches its resting place under the Throne. Then it falls prostrate and remains there until it is asked: Rise up and go to the place whence you came, and it goes back and continues emerging out from its rising place and then glides till it reaches its place of rest under the Throne and falls prostrate and remains in that state until it is asked: Rise up and return to the place whence you came, and it returns and emerges out from it rising place and the it glides (in such a normal way) that the people do not discern anything ( unusual in it) till it reaches its resting place under the Throne. ..”
(This clearly shows that the Quran/ Muhammad believed that the Sun goes around a stationary fixed Earth. It also solves the problem - argued by Muslims - of how it rises from a different place where it sets in the Muddy spring - it "glides" to its "rising place" after being given permission by Allah, due no doubt to its "prostration")
Muslim 1:299, “..When the sun disappeared (from the sight) he said: O Abu Dharr! Do you know where it goes? He (the narrator) said: Allah and His Apostle know best. He (the Holy Prophet) said. Verily it goes and begs permission, for prostration (to Allah) and the permission is granted to it. Once it would be said: Return to the place whence you came, and then it would rise from its setting place…”
And AbuDawood 3991, which you have quoted.
Allah gets his cosmology badly wrong. AFTER he has created the Earth and all its plants and animals in 2 to 6 days (41:9 - 10) he creates the 7 heavens one on top of the other in 2 days and places the stars in the nearest heaven.
Unfortunately he also places the Moon in the midst of the 7 heavens, which places it further away than the stars! (71:15, 16 “"'See ye not how Allah has created the seven heavens one above another, 'And made the moon a light in their midst, ..") And like the Emperors New Clothes the Arabs all nod in unison - Yes Muhammad we can see all the 7 heavens - isnt Allah Great)
The Earth can hear and answer and choose whether to move or not, arbitrarily
41:11 "Then He turned to the heaven when it was smoke, [consisting of] rising vapours, and He said to it and to the earth, “Come both of you, to what I desire from you, willingly, or unwillingly!” ..They said, “We come, together with all those inhabiting us, willingly!”"
And so it goes on and on - this infallible word of Allah...
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